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Incinermyn
September 10th, 2007, 04:04 AM
This has kind of been on my mind for about a week. I'd been working on the fanfics that I mentioned the ideas for a little while ago, Feral Legacies, Biohazard, and Week 23, when it struck me... What do others think about the usage of fakemon in fanfics? I know they're allowed, but I want to know if using my fakes is going to cause people to hate my fics.

Alter Ego
September 10th, 2007, 04:28 AM
Mmmhmm...I see you're speaking of fanfic authors as a sort of collective group with a set agenda.

Don't.

It's not like being a fanfic writer automatically sets your stance on fakemon to a 'yes' or 'no'; they (and reviewers, even lazy reviewers like myself) are people just like everyone else, so preferences will vary from person to person.

Personally? I'm not a big fan of fakemon to be honest. I mean, there are already 493 official ones, so there should be plenty to choose from. My main gripe with them is that I can't really tell when they're being deus ex machinatized. If I see a Pichu miraculously Hyper Beaming a Steelix to submission, I can immediately cry 'foul' because I know the strengths and weaknesses of the two pokémon in question and know that there's no plausible reason for the scenario to play out like that, but when the movepools, statlines, and so on are only available within the writer's own head battles become a lot harder to call, and fakemon do have a disturbing tendency to always beat the official ones. :\ Also, description on them and their abilities is usually severely lacking, so I can't even picture the battle in my head. >_<

If you write your fic carefully, make sure not to deus ex machinatize the fakemon, describe them properly, and ensure that you have a real story rather than just turning it into a fakemon showcase, I'm sure that I'd enjoy reading it.

How to say...fakemon are sort of like OT fics; you can do them, but you should be ready to put in the extra effort that comes with the territory. :3

Incinermyn
September 10th, 2007, 05:02 AM
So some people who use fakemon in fanfics tend to portray them as virtually invisible compared to the preexisting ones and also tend to lack description of them/their abilities; thus, bringing down the overall quality of the pieces? I gotta admit, I'd even find fics where the made-up creatures are portrayed juggernauts compared to the real ones annoying. So, if I want my fics to be likable, I'm definitely taking your advise on usage of my fakes, Alter Ego. Also, I think I'll ease up on how many I use too because, like you said, it should actually be a story and not just a showcase for fakes.

Grovyle42(Griff8416)
September 10th, 2007, 01:31 PM
If the fakes are described well then I don't mind them. Although, I prefer the normal ones.

What is meant by Deus Ex Machina? I know it's latin for "God from the machine" but what does that mean? Being able to do something because one can make something?

sandcrawler
September 10th, 2007, 05:09 PM
The originals are better, more familiar. Much easier, rather than having to STOP and explain the details of a fakemon.

What is meant by Deus Ex Machina? I know it's latin for "God from the machine" but what does that mean? Being able to do something because one can make something?

Actually, it's more like something magically showing up to solve a problem. As in, when all hope is lost, somebody plows through and kills the enemy. It's rather sloppy and lazy.

Grovyle42(Griff8416)
September 10th, 2007, 06:23 PM
The originals are better, more familiar. Much easier, rather than having to STOP and explain the details of a fakemon.



Actually, it's more like something magically showing up to solve a problem. As in, when all hope is lost, somebody plows through and kills the enemy. It's rather sloppy and lazy.

Oh, so like in the end of Jurassic Park 3?

Gummy
September 10th, 2007, 07:26 PM
My first fic (which wasn't so bad, I might add) included two Fakemon taht played out fairly well. One of them only starred in one/two chapters, but they other wound up being a very important character. I know, any other Pokemon could have fit his role, but I guess it was the artwork that made him the right candidate for the role (which was one of the bad guys).

Anyways, I tend to like Fakemon in fics, as long a picture can be provivded, along with a masterful description (post pic at end of chapter). Fakemon are cool because the other 493 are just so predictable, no matter which one you use. Like Alter Ego said, you don't expect a Pichu Hyper Beaming a Steelix and beating it, so you know as soon as the trainer sends out their Pichu, they've already lost. However, if they send out a Fakemon (whos personality has hopefully already been defined), you get anxious to see what he's really made of. Of course, you have to be wary of making your Fakemon godly.

JX Valentine
September 10th, 2007, 07:35 PM
Oh, so like in the end of Jurassic Park 3?

Or, if you'd like another example...

Character: "La la la la..."
God: *INSTANTLY SMITES CHARACTER*
Story: End.

On a serious note, it really depends, in my view. Personally, I think that if you can pull off the story by just using canon Pokemon, you really should, as the purpose of the Fakemon is completely lost. For example, if someone writes a story using a Fire-type horse with a flaming mane and tail, I'm sorry, but that's Ponyta. There's no reason why you should suddenly make a new Pokemon if you just want a Ponyta, you know?

Other than that, as long as the author can sufficiently describe the Pokemon and give a reason for having a Fakemon in the first place (e.g. new region, it's vital for the storyline, whatever). Otherwise, if you find that you're throwing in Fakemon for the sake of having Fakemon, chances are, you'll probably be better off with canon Pokemon.

And no, I'm not particularly fond of the "picture at the end of a story" idea. The reason why is because if you have to rely on visuals for your story, you haven't told your story well enough.

Gummy
September 10th, 2007, 07:40 PM
That's why I added the "masterful description" part. No one should rely on art to help out their writing.

Yamato-san
September 10th, 2007, 08:41 PM
if you have to rely on visuals for your story, you haven't told your story well enough.

[cough] As an aspiring doujin artist, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't put that in such a negative context.

Anyway, other people can do whatever the hell they wish with their stories, but as for me, I'm personally against the usage of fake Pokemon. We've been given so many monsters and techniques to work with, why not use what we got rather than stray from it with our own monster ideas (which more often than not tend to contrast with the official style)? After all, we're basing a storyline off of the franchise in the first place, shouldn't we use that to our advantage? Otherwise, we should just be writing some completely unrelated story with purely original characters (which isn't exactly a bad thing if pulled off correctly, but still, it sorta kills what you were originally going for).

Now, I personally wouldn't mind using a monstrous abomination that might not even be considered a Pokemon (hell, I've got an idea for something like that myself). After all, the anime used the Celebi Golem and Meta-Groudon in the movies. If I don't establish it as an actual Pokemon, but a near-unstoppable, world-threatening sin against nature that's on a completely different level even from the legendary Pokemon, I'd be alright with that (plus, those monsters from the movies were based off of existing Pokemon designs anyway... I guess that also helps). I also find gijinka to be a fun concept, though I doubt I'd use them, and their bases all come from existing Pokemon anyway.

BTW, I don't get where some of you people get the idea that the existing 493 are predictable. Sometimes, it's how a Pokemon manages to overcome its statistical and type weaknesses that makes a battle really seem interesting, as well as how the battle choreography plays out (why the hell do you think sword duels are still interesting, even after thousands of years of stories featuring them?). Also, if you manage to vary a Pokemon's moveset from the games, or establish their differences in strengths and weaknesses (it's a lot different from the anime, where practically every battle is just fast-hitting and dodging, even with friggin' turtles -_-), you add a whole new element to things and can vary things more than they already are.

One thing interesting I hope to do in my manga is to be strictly faithful to the Pokemon's base stats from the games. For example, a Kokodora (Aron) is like a lump of metal the size of your head with stubby legs.... it sure as hell ain't gonna move fast, but if it should tackle you, it'll hurt like hell, and its thick steel skin would allow it to endure a lot (thus, I faithfully converted the fact that it has low speed, high defense, and pretty decent attack for an unevolved Pokemon.... HP could probably work as resilience, notice that it tends to be high with several big Pokemon. Special attack and special defense could probably also be established in a realistic light as energy and aura respectively, the latter could especially work since it tends to be high in mystical Pokemon like Kyuukon/Ninetales, or Pokemon that could use chi like certain Fighting-types. The splitting of physical and special attacks in the 4th generation greatly helped the ability to present the stats in this fashion).

JX Valentine
September 10th, 2007, 08:56 PM
[cough] As an aspiring doujin artist, I'd really appreciate it if you didn't put that in such a negative context.

Doujin is fine, as comics are a completely separate art form. However, this is fanfiction, which I consider to be separate. The thing about fanfiction is that it's the narrative -- the writing that tells the story. However, if your writing is so weak that you absolutely need that visual in order to get your point across, then you might have a problem.

It should be noted that I'd like to emphasize the word "rely" here. I have no problem with fan novels that use images as a sort of supplement -- like a "hey, here's something else to look at to give you a break from staring at text for a long time." Rebirth does (or did) this nicely, as did an old fanfiction I'm not sure anyone has heard of called Legendary (http://web.archive.org/web/20020310203023/www.geocities.com/Eureka/Vault/5695/l_index.html). The reason why these work and not the sort of fic I was talking about above is because the images aren't necessary for the story. They're just something nice to have around. However, the stories function on their own as good fics, whereas a fanfiction that absolutely needs that image because the author can't find the words to describe the same thing is generally a fanfiction that fails to do what it set out to do, which is to tell a story using prose.

Again, this is considering the idea that comics are a separate entity, as comics are meant to rely on a combination of art and the written word to tell a story. However, fanfiction works are not.

Sorry for the slight derailment here. I'm just trying to make it absolutely clear that I have nothing against comics. And, well, to clarify what I meant.

SBaby
September 10th, 2007, 10:16 PM
I never really had a problem with fan Pokemon, as long as they're explained well and there aren't too many of them. I mean, I use them too. I'd say 3 or 4 at the most in a Fic is alright. Just don't go overboard and make a whole Region of fan Pokemon.

Alter Ego
September 11th, 2007, 02:48 AM
Actually, it's more like something magically showing up to solve a problem. As in, when all hope is lost, somebody plows through and kills the enemy. It's rather sloppy and lazy.

Compressing that into four words: "Aim for the horn." :P But yeah, "Deus ex machina" refers to the antique plays where the big conflict was always solved by the miraculous (and completely illogical) intervention of a god (Played by a machine, hence Deus Ex Machina); it's basically an absurd, divine intervention type solution to any given conflict, within this fandom it's usually in the form of a pokémon who suddenly goes ridiculously powerful and KOs everything for no particular reason (*Cough* Pikachu *Cough*).


Anyways, Glajummy; could you please try not to use my examples for the sake of arguing a point I personally oppose? The way you put it you made it sound like one of the "Yay, it's a random fakemon with completely uncharted abilities, whopee!" people.

I'm not, so please don't paraphrase me in way that makes it seem like I am. <.< I'm one of the people who believe in setting clear rules for what pokémon can and can't do, so the undefined, fuzzy statlines and movepools of fakemon are not something I'm fond of. Plus, most of them just seem so...redundant. T_T Like Jax Malcolm said, it shouldn't be fakemon just for the sake of fakemon.

Also, if you think everything among the 493 pokémon out there is predictable you should seriously do some competitive pokémon battling. Even within the framework of the real game mechanics there are countless strategies involving the most bizarre results (Like how a level 1 Phanphy backed by a sandstorm can beat the ugly out of a level 100 Arceus (And no, this isn't something lame like 'Arceus has no attacking moves', or 'Phanphy is hacked, lulz')) and although not everything of that is as feasible within the realm of fanfiction, there are countless other possibilities because you can apply creative use of moves (the pokémon manga is a pretty good example of this) and the setting itself and the personalities of the pokémon involved play their role in the outcome of the battle (E.g. cramped spaces are obviously a disadvantage for big pokémon who need a lot room to move while water pokémon obviously have the edge if it's an aquatic battle, a Bastiodon with a temper could throw all caution to the winds and try to charge despite, technically, being a defensive pokémon etc.). If nothing innovative can be made from all of this, then the fault lies with the author; not the franchise. Fakemon are all too often used by authors simply because they're too lazy to come up with something really original (Thus relying on a hastily slapped-together set of made-up critters who they can point at and say "Hey! I have my own fakemon so this story is as innovative as can be!"). It's like...some of them seem to think that throwing in a few jack-in-the-box species can somehow make up for the lack of a proper plot and setting. :\

Much the same seems to happen with pictures, hence why I'm not that big on them either. People have a tendency to think that since they provided a picture it somehow exempts them from giving a proper description in writing. (This is particularly annoying in RPing, where you even get freakin' sprites at times. I mean, how the flip am I supposed to make my character respond to that? "Oh, look; Gary stole Lance's cape and got himself a bad dye job! =O") Usually, the more pictures and other visuals (Colored fonts etc.) there are the less attention tends to have been paid to the actual content of the story, which is annoying since it's the writing I'm here for. If I wanted sprites or manga pictures, I'd be at the Art Gallery section.

But you know...that might just be negative RPing experiences talking. :3

Enperuto
September 13th, 2007, 01:55 PM
I personally believe in using fakemon, mostly because I'm set way south of Japan, so that it's nearly illogical for anything but the most common of pokemon, and their real-world counterparts (mouses/rats/rabbits are so common that it makes sense that species like Rattata or Pikachu can be found nearly everywhere.) (It also helps that in my main world, there's a long history and it actually originates from our world, so that approximately the same species exist everywhere, with some exceptions.

However, I agree that fakemon for the sake of fakemon is pointless.

I myself like to create fakemon. If you think about our world, and how many species of animals there are, and you factor in that (at least in my world) maybe a fourth or fifth go extinct, and a few others are created in labs... Which means there are still at least a thousand species, though if you count a third inbreeding to create hybridized species, I'm still thinking they're all at least a thousand species strong.

As for the author that use a horse similar to Ponyta, I believe that that was at first a mistake because he didn't actually know about Ponyta, which is a sad fact... Anyways, now that author has actually made him a subspecies of Ponyta that was genetically modified to be more powerful, and is part dark type, but also has the ability to use other elements. Unfortunately, this backfires and actually makes the subspecies a lot weaker as it gets stronger.

However, that's about the only case that I use fakemon - in that world. When I'm writing a stand alone involving something with canon regions instead of a far off region, I won't use fakemon.

(What peeves me is when regions have nearly all the canon pokemon, which doesn't make sense at all.)

JX Valentine
September 14th, 2007, 06:24 AM
As for the author that use a horse similar to Ponyta, I believe that that was at first a mistake because he didn't actually know about Ponyta, which is a sad fact...

Just because you know little about a Pokemon doesn't mean you can't look up information about it online, though... which is what I told him to do when he posted his story on another forum (which then descended into an argument about when to use Fakemon and when to simply use canon Pokemon). I assume that his subspecies actually serves a purpose in the story at this point, however, as I've yet to read the revision. (I remember the original, when it really looked like he did it because he wanted to throw in a Fakemon... which also didn't really make much sense.)

Enperuto
September 14th, 2007, 05:05 PM
Just because you know little about a Pokemon doesn't mean you can't look up information about it online, though... which is what I told him to do when he posted his story on another forum (which then descended into an argument about when to use Fakemon and when to simply use canon Pokemon). I assume that his subspecies actually serves a purpose in the story at this point, however, as I've yet to read the revision. (I remember the original, when it really looked like he did it because he wanted to throw in a Fakemon... which also didn't really make much sense.)

Well yeah... everybody starts out as a n00b, and nearly everyone isn't proud of it... which is what makes fics began as a n00b and advanced as a better write good in some cases, because things that don't logically make sense to the average pokemon fan of non-n00b level occur when the writer is still a n00b, and the write is able to find a reason for it...

And while the lack of knowledge of existence of a type or species is unexcusable, it is common, especially to people that come later into the fandom.

JX Valentine
September 14th, 2007, 05:59 PM
My point has nothing to do with writing itself. What I'm trying to say is I don't mean you shouldn't start writing until you know everything about the fandom. I'm just saying that if you're going to create a new Pokemon, you should at least already know what Pokemon already exist. Otherwise, you'll just be making carbon copies of canon Pokemon, which really defeats the purpose of making a Fakemon in the first place. For this reason, I also believe you should start in Pokemon fanfiction by cutting your teeth on canon, then move onto more "advanced" concepts that rely on more creativity, such as new regions and new Pokemon. Otherwise, no, Fakemon creation should really not be something the n00bthors delve into for the simple reason that the Pokemon fandom is new to them, and therefore, they may not have enough of an understanding about how the Pokemon world works or what Pokemon do and don't exist until they play the games, look at online Pokedexes (a lot of which are well advertised -- *motions to Serebii*), and generally have gotten a sense of what's within the fandom.

Saffire Persian
September 14th, 2007, 07:14 PM
I don't mind fakemon at all, really. Though I suppose I might wonder a bit at what looks to be totally random-usage of fakemon. When they're stuck into a story where their existence makes sense, all the better, and all the more believable.

Incinermyn
September 15th, 2007, 10:26 AM
You know, a lot of my fakemon are based on animals that've already been done, like skunks, wolves, etc., but the thing about them is that their not like the ones that already exist, so I shouldn't have too much of a problem using them in my fanfics.

Astinus
September 15th, 2007, 11:45 AM
You really shouldn't, skunter. I mean, look at how many canon fish Pokemon there are. Or, for a better example, electric rodents. :<

That said, I don't mind fakemon as long as there is a reason for them in the story. If you just have a fakemon in there to make your story stick out from the others, then that's not good. It just makes your story come out to be really bad if it has fakemon for the heck of it. But if you have fakemon for a good reason, then it's fine.

Plus, fakemon show you how well the author can describe things. And also, fakemon can show you how knowledgeable the author is about the canon world, if the "Ponyta" fakemon was any example. >.>

SBaby
September 16th, 2007, 06:16 PM
If you're really worried, you could always use the old 'reversal trick' to get the reader to like your Fan Pokemon.

The reversal is when the writer puts the character or Pokemon in a situation where they get critically wounded or put in a jeopardy and their survivability is in question for a while in a Fic or series. It is one of the big things that Steven Bochco did to make Sipowicz into a likeable main character, and many directors and authors have used it in some way to improve the popularity of characters who's popularity would otherwise be in question. In fact, DC even did this in a way with Superman when his popularity started to wane. Granted, he was actually killed in that situation, but in the end he came back (rather, at the end of the trilogy). And he was more popular for quite some time as a result. And if I'm not mistaken, even Pikachu went through a situation like that early on.

And there's more examples than that. So try something like that for a creative way to introduce the Pokemon. You might be surprised at the responses you get from it.

Incinermyn
September 17th, 2007, 04:59 PM
Personally, I've never much cared for superman, but I get what you're saying, SBaby. Actually, that's kind of what I'm doing in my Mystery Dungeon fic Biohazard by having one of my fakemon being hunted by a rescue team. Granted, the creature really isn't that weak, but being a dark/psychic Pokemon and an intermediate stage creature, it could suffer a serious beating when ganged up upon by the Houndoom, Weavile, and Luxray chasing it with intent to do it harm (as far as the fakemon knows because punishment missions are what those three specialize in).

Also, Hanako, I never come up with a fakemon unless there's a good story as to why it exists. Example: Skunette, one of my skunk fakes, came about because early people in my fake region of Ronac found it an easy creature to tame and, unlike Stunky, it wouldn't spray or attack unless it sensed serious danger. Also, because people started to spoil it, this resulted in it developing into a creature that reflected that. However, people found this creature to be the most obnoxious thing alive and stopped pampering it. Enraged, the males turned feral and returned to the wilderness, while some females developed sneaky ways to get what they wanted.

Granted, I don't go over all of this stuff at once, but its definitely not like I haven't thought this stuff out.

Yamato-san
September 18th, 2007, 10:52 AM
oh yeah, I just remembered something... going back on what I said earlier about using mutated monstrosities, it seems that not just the anime, but even the games use this from time to time. The main example of this is most likely Dark Lugia, from Pokemon XD. I also recently heard that in the new Mystery Dungeon games that were released in Japan...

there's a Dark Dialga.

Though, I guess I may need to rephrase what I said earlier.

Now, I personally wouldn't mind using a monstrous abomination that might not even be considered a Pokemon (hell, I've got an idea for something like that myself). After all, the anime used the Celebi Golem and Meta-Groudon in the movies. If I don't establish it as an actual Pokemon, but a near-unstoppable, world-threatening sin against nature that's on a completely different level even from the legendary Pokemon, I'd be alright with that.

Looking back, Dark Lugia actually is a Pokemon in the sense that you are able to capture it and contain it inside a ball while it's still in that form (thus fitting the term "Pocket Monster" perfectly). However, I guess in another sense, it is different from other Pokemon in that it's unable to grow stronger through level-up, and storywise, it can't seem to grow close to humans, even its own trainer, unless it's completely purified. Thus, Dark Lugia is, more than anything, an anomaly on an existing Pokemon, which fits with what I said earlier.

I'd love to hear more people give feedback on this, as I personally find that the idea of mutated Pokemon is probably the best way you could possibly use original creatures that are (somewhat) different from the official bestiary while still staying loyal to the franchise's existing material. Albeit, they mainly seem fitted towards antagonistic roles, but I guess that's part of the idea: some villains are willing to play god in order to become stronger than what nature would allow, and it's up to the protagonists to figure a way past their newfound power. Though, that's not to say that the protagonists can't do the same, but it really should be established that altering one's Pokemon in this way turns it into a monstrosity or otherwise different from regular Pokemon (though, I guess there could be some exceptions... for instance, one could always play the Mewtwo card, Mewtwo being a Pokemon that was genetically altered during a cloning process, or altered as an embryo if you wish to go by game canon... but even still, while Mewtwo can be considered an official Pokemon, in most canon, he acted a bit like a berserk monstrosity himself at first, which goes to show that altering Pokemon is something that should be advised against in most cases).

Dachampster
September 28th, 2007, 02:27 PM
If the fakes are described well then I don't mind them. Although, I prefer the normal ones.

What is meant by Deus Ex Machina? I know it's latin for "God from the machine" but what does that mean? Being able to do something because one can make something?

Deus: God
Ex: Hmm
Machina: Modifying

It means Uber.

JX Valentine
September 28th, 2007, 02:32 PM
Actually, "deus ex machina" literally means "god in the machine." It's a term adopted from early theatre (ancient Greece, I think), when plays sometimes included gods lowered onto the stage with a crane-like machine to solve a seemingly hopeless situation that the mortal (or somewhat mortal) characters would have no way of solving themselves.

You're right about what it means, though. In a way. The solution that's labeled a "deus ex machina" would be sort of uber because that's basically what happens whenever one occurs, even nowadays.

txteclipse
October 19th, 2007, 05:50 PM
I think there's some animals that still have to be converted to pokemon, so if you need something like that, I'd say a fakemon is necessary. Otherwise, try to use what exists.

Rosefrost
October 21st, 2007, 02:39 PM
This has kind of been on my mind for about a week. I'd been working on the fanfics that I mentioned the ideas for a little while ago, Feral Legacies, Biohazard, and Week 23, when it struck me... What do others think about the usage of fakemon in fanfics? I know they're allowed, but I want to know if using my fakes is going to cause people to hate my fics.I've been writing and making up a fanfic for two years now. I'm really working hard on it, it has an amazing plot, and I'm putting two fake pokemon in it, both with awesome backgrounds, and they are very important to the story. I would say that if you really need to, put a few fake pokemon in your story, but describe them well. If they're not crucial to the story, then it's probably best you leave them out.:cheeky: