Poke Island (SE)

[Kine]

Sep 26th '08 Notification: I updated Creative Worlds with a bit more information than I've probably written through the five pages, but it would sum it up as opposed to reading through all five. I'm not telling anyone "hey visit my site!!", but I'm just saying you'll benefit more by reading up on progress, specific information, and other stuff in a more organized fashion, especially since this the original text is nearly year old. It still doesn't really seem dire enough (for me) to just copy and paste the info here, either, considering turnabout.

Below, I've added a couple of screens for the more finalized version, and added a little to the assistance area. Otherwise it's the same as it's been about year ago.




Original Post:
It's been years since I've last been here. Busy with a lot of stuff, but one thing I've been working pretty hard on is this here game I'm gonna present. I also dunno if this is even the right area within Game Dev... =|

Title: Poke Island (Special Edition)

Made With: RMXP, unless someone can suggest something that outdoes this 100 fold (and give me more sprite flexability).

Intro: Poke Island was a fan game I made back in 1999, even though it wasn't very thorough (in terms of game play and the system). Nevertheless, I still liked it, a least enough to keep the series going long after the game, making the Poke Island series in and of itself a sort of trilogy (the last two were comics, though). A lot of people have been curious about the series, so recently I announced I'd bring it back, but the only way I'm getting Poke Island (the game) out there is to remake it, because the old version is awkward and antiquated and won't run on modern systems.

Story: If you know anything about me, you know I don't give anything away. All I can give you is a sort of teaser story you'd see on the back of a game box or long before a game is released:

Strange things are happening! Pokemon from all over the world are mysteriously being transported to a hidden island in the Pacific, known as Poke Island. Away from human eyes, the Pokemon have lived social lives much like the humans themselves, but with the population instantly increasing, the influence and suggestions of human life increases as well. But for what reason have the Pokemon been transported to this island? Who could be behind this, and what is the purpose?

Honestly the game has about 4 subplots, pretty much interconnected. I just can't say what that is unless you're behind the scenes or the game is finished.

Features: If you've ever touched a MOTHER game, you already know how this works. Basically, the game is based almost exclusively on EarthBound's system. After I had played through EB the first time, it was one of the best gaming experiences I've had, and I guess I was spoiled by it. Making Poke Island (original) like EarthBound was actually more like a tribute and huge inspiration.

PISE isn't any different, except with MOTHER 3's release came new graphics, cutscenes, interactive battles and many things EB didn't have, so now the standard has been upped to MOTHER 3's way of doing things (but the core system for PISE is still very much EarthBound, I won't even attempt sound battles).

If you aren't familiar with EarthBound, I'll try to list some key ideas:

- game is based on a sort of romantized 1990's, complete with an alien invasion
- overworld enemies, many of which are offbeat or satirical
- game itself is a satire of RPGs
- equipable weapons include yo-yos, slingshots and baseball bats
- rolling HP meter gives you the edge on winning battles
- several attacks and status conditions that are pretty silly (such as a Cold)
- soundtrack includes many sampled tunes from US culture
- a lot of Beatles references
- Pokey Minch


Ideally, Poke Island has the same core ideas. I mean, Pikachu doesn't use a Yo-yo but still.

Actually, on the Pokemon side of things, the creatures, types and attacks are taken from the RBY games. This game was made in a time before GS existed, and the story itself hasn't changed. I can't add any more than what few new Pokemon were revealed at the time, with the exception of Pichu (as the original game had a very young Pikachu, and well Game Freak retconned that one so I guess I have to comply there).

That said, hopefully it won't bother anyone that the game is set in the era of the 1st generation. To be honest, though, that keeps thing SUPER simple, because I really really really don't think anyone wants to make a kajillion sprites for 480+ Pokemon and variations of them.

You may also remember the days when Bite was a normal attack and Poison was S/E on bugs. Well, it's here too. There's only 15 types (to add any more doesn't just mess up the era, but the story itself), and each is pretty much how you remember. The only difference is that Psychic types won't trump everything, as that barely matters in this situation, and the stats themselves will differ from the old HP, ATK, DEF, SPC, and SPD. There's some other exceptions, too, such as held items introduced in GS actually appear as useful items here, etc.

Screens:
Newer, closer to final stuff:
Here's some shots of some areas.
http://www.creativeworlds.net/PIStuff/PISE-GreenTown1.PNG

http://www.creativeworlds.net/PIStuff/PISE-PokeForest2.PNG

http://www.creativeworlds.net/PIStuff/PISE-FernGarden1.PNG

Old concept movie:
Dev Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90b_U2-ps1k&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcreativeworlds%2Enet%2FPokeIsleSE%2Ehtm)

As a rule, I've learned that you never announce a project without getting something done yourself. Sometimes this is as high as 50%, but for this, there's way too much to do alone.



And with all that said and done...
Assistance:
Generally, I need whatever talent anyone has. So fields are open for anything but mapping and story, those were done in the original and won't change. Details?

- Overworld sprites for NPCs. There's a lot of them. A LOT OF THEM. 157 Pokemon total, but a whole lot of species have variations (male, female, child, businessguy, salesman, shopper, doctor, etc).

- Props. Because there's probably too many of these, too.

- Battle sprites. It's possible, I may do all these myself. But there's a lot of bloody enemies too. They go into 4 categories: Common Pokemon, Strange Pokemon, Original and MOTHER. Commons are just everyday Pokemon that resemble old official anime art. Strange are Pokemon with personality (disorders) or Bosses. Note that not all Pokemon (common or strange) are enemies. Original are original enemies that I made for the game, like Demonic Relic or China Plate (the less sense they make, the better). MOTHER means some MOTHER 1 & 2 enemies reappear, like the Filthy Attack Roach or Titany.

- Scenary. This takes a long time, too. A lot of it can be ripped from MOTHER 3, but I'm thinking even more of it is from scratch, a least it's been in my experience.

- Scripting. I'll be working in Sphere, which uses Javascript. The last thing I can do is code. Trust me, I've been trying for about 6 years. If I ever get a job in Game Dev, a programmer is NOT what I'll be. If you can make a catch-all script that's pretty much EarthBound in a nutshell, that's all I really need. But I'll also need stuff like sprite allowance (how many sprites I can have per character as opposed to 4 for all), a party of 5 in battle, etc.

- Stats for enemies. Again, there's a lot of them, and that means a lot of stats to assign, such as total HP, Offense, etc. This also includes weaknesses, resistances, and susceptabilities (such as one may be easily paralyzed or poisoned compared to another).

- Musician. A weird one. I will need to find someone who makes music somewhere, somehow, because a few songs I absolutely NEED to be original. The rest of the game can have an original (for the most part, there's a few standards I need to keep) score, but it's not dire. I'll end up using selected music from MOTHER 2/3 among others otherwise.

There's probably more aspects that I can't think of, but as you can see, this game is very much "build from the ground up", with the only presets being location and mapping, how the story goes and what elements of scenery I can mooch from MOTHER 3 (and battle BGs from 2/3 on top of that).

The key thing to remember is that the overall style of the game is MOTHER(EarthBound) + Pokemon. The overworld will mostly look like a MOTHER game, battle images and other close ups should resemble the official style of the series, however with EB wackiness mixed in depending on who it is.





Last words...
I appreciate any and all help/support I can get on this. The sooner it's done, the better for all (especially those who are waiting for Poke Tales/Legends). Also, I'm getting old, people. It won't be long before I gotta concern myself with mortgages and the IMRF (well, I'm not THAT old but the time is coming). So I really could use the extra boost so that I'm not still attempting to do this when I'm 35. >_> (that's many years off but still.) Any help is good help, so long as it's coordinated.

... plus, I'm still trying to get a fighting game out. =B

If you want any more information that I undoubtably left out, or want some insight on the original Poke Island, you can check this out (http://creativeworlds.net/PokeIsleSE.htm) if you haven't already seen it.

Thanks for your time, I'm off.

[Avatar]

This is easily one of the better looking projects on the board at the moment (both in form of the graphics, and the presentation of the game itself)
I can't say much on the scripting aspect.

I really like the Mother 3 inspired look (I'm very much a fan of the Mother series myself) you've created.
And did I catch a little Earthbound reference there during the battle system part?

I also noticed a little layering error in the video at 00:21 when you walk past the tree and up to the Raichu.

[Kine]

Thanks, and yeah, that'd be one of the MOTHER enemies in the game. Actually I ended up recreating that battle image (considering most EB enemies that made it into 3 were cleaned up some, so I had to follow suit).

Also, I noticed the clipping thing too. I'm not quite sure how to approach that one just yet. I can adjust the priorities, but that's all I know to do, and that's assuredly not enough.

[Neo-Dragon]

Really impressive looking. You seem to have done a good job with the game so far. Shame you need someone to help you code as the code is well the main thing of the game lol. Hopefully someone will help you so this project will get a release in the future. I would help but I'm an Rm2k3 man myself.... lol.
Good luck.

[Olly99]

If you don't mind me saying, this looks like it relies really heavily off EarthBound. Not a bad thing though, looks like it could be interesting.

[Nastara]

Amazing work. Simply amazing. I don't know what else to say.

[Alistair]

Very good. You have captured the true essence of Mother in the form of Pokémon. The maps, sprites, tiles, dialog (well, everything) looks exxcellent. Keep up the good work.

[Kine]

If you don't mind me saying, this looks like it relies really heavily off EarthBound. Not a bad thing though, looks like it could be interesting.

I remember when I had first conceptualized the game back for the original version around 8 years ago, it sorta did. However, as I worked on it, I ended up writing and rewriting a whole lot of stuff to make it it's own. In the end, it still had some elements that seemed direct from EB, just rerouted, though.* A lot of the game itself is it's own, though, and the overall story is quite different too (trust me, it's not "Giygas strikes from beyond the grave", and even if he did, what the heck does that have to do with this? I had to do a lot of logic checking in the day...).

Of course, if you mean systematically (and graphically), then yes. That's intentional. I was probably easily amused by everything in EB that wasn't in any other RPGs at the time, and I actually still am what with M3, except I'm not going to even try the complicated new features in the 3rd game. The only thing I may have to forgo is rolling HP (just a countdown is good enough), which is a neat health system but heck if I know how to approach that (in my head I can think of how to code a countdown, but in application my codes almost never work).

The largest problem is that the series continued afterwards, further developing characters and the island itself, and that I'm not the biggest fan of retcons (even if I'm better at creative writing now than I was years ago), so even in this remake I cannot make further changes (not huge ones) or else it causes a huge tsunami of inconsistancies down the line.

*That being said, that idea probably isn't any different than any game made from PK Hack. For this game, though, it's really much more expansive, which, outside of having no hacking skills, is why I had to use some old game making program to get in various locations and situations. Using RMXP now, well, at least the game will actually be an RPG this time.

[Perpetr8r]

I'm not sure if I'm a little late on the uptake here, but I would like to help.

Let me first introduce myself. Most know me as Sirus, and I hail from a small Pokemon MMO I run on BYOND. I've always been a fan of Pokemon, but my love for it has diminished greatly with each passing year, as everything onwards from Ruby/Sapphire seems to have just run the Pokemon series into the ground. For the few years it's been up, I've tried to keep my game true to the traditions of the original Pokemon games (shortly afterward I discovered the manga and was blown away by it, but that's another story).

As I'm now studying full-time for university, I've had less and less time to work on my game, and my grand visions of creating a famous Pokemon MMORPG have somewhat diminshed. You could say I lost my drive a little bit.

And then today I somehow stumbled across your site, and it brought everything back. The magic that Pokemon once held for me... your art, creativity and vision have resurrected. It was amazing. I swear I visited every single Pokemon link on that site, played every game, read every comic and stayed up way late when I should be working on this project... but I digress. The point is, what you've done to Pokemon is what I've always wished I could do; Create an immersive experience that makes you feel like you are part of the world, that makes you feel a sense of awe to watch, that draws out that creative streak we all have.

So yeah, I'm inspired. A lot. I've worked with RPG maker before... (Not XP, but I'll pick it up fast if I get the chance), and I want to actually be a part of this game. If you need programming or design help, I know I can be of assistance.

And if you want examples of my work, then I can either direct you to the game I run (I'll even show you the update-in-progress), or show you one of my old RM2k3 projects that I've saved and someday hope to return to. Either way, I offer my skills to you and hope we can work together. I think we have much we could learn from each other.

- Sirus

EDIT: Oh, and you might want to look at DM(BYOND) to code the game in. It's tons more flexible than RPG maker and if you do, you'll have someone with a lot of experience at it to back you up. But go with what you know, I just want to help!

[jonsploder]

110/100! That is great! If you want something 100 times better than RPG MAKER XP I'd chose gamemaker but I dont think that you need it.

[Kine]

Perpetr8r: Sounds a lot like me. Well, I thought RSE was better than GS but still, new games too much of the same, yadda yadda another coat of paint. The only difference is instead of a diminishing interest, I just started deviating for my own entertainment. Well, moreso, that is.

I've always liked doing things a bit differently than most people would approach. Go for the gusto, I say.

But anyway, sure if you have examples, I'd like to see what you have. But even then you're free to choose your own position, there's too much open areas for anything to really be filled.

Also, truth be told, I don't have real hold on RMXP yet, that is, there's not enough done where I have to use it. I'm not even going to start real creation until the system is worked out, so it's just like one giant debug room for now. So if BYOND is better (all around), I'll switch. Mainly I just need something that's easier for sprites and can make special battle BGs undulate and twist and such. Something that has 8 directional pixel movement w/ caterpillars as a standard is a plus, though I have a source code for that anyway.

jonsploder: I have Game Maker, and while that would definately give me the sprite flexability, I just don't think it would give me as much control in the long run. Also, I'm just not so sure with GM itself... I guess if I wanted to make any other game (can't say I do w/ this and MUGEN), I would turn to Stencyl, when that finally comes out.

[Perpetr8r]

*ahem* I had all these great things to show off but nooo, "Go get 15 posts" it says... If you want, I'll email you the examples I was going to show you since I don't really have the option of putting them up here.

But anyway, sure if you have examples, I'd like to see what you have. But even then you're free to choose your own position, there's too much open areas for anything to really be filled.

Now that I've said I'd show ya, I'll have to go dig up "Boredom". I hope you still have RM2k3 though, else things might get interesting...
As for PRPR, I don't really want to show off the current version. I mean, it's not bad, but if you really want to see what I can do then let me show you the update sometime. I'll just have to catch you online somehow and then invite you into my little test server of doom.

Also, truth be told, I don't have real hold on RMXP yet, that is, there's not enough done where I have to use it. I'm not even going to start real creation until the system is worked out, so it's just like one giant debug room for now. So if BYOND is better (all around), I'll switch. Mainly I just need something that's easier for sprites and can make special battle BGs undulate and twist and such. Something that has 8 directional pixel movement w/ caterpillars as a standard is a plus, though I have a source code for that anyway.

Well here's the specs of BYOND:

MISC
- Built on an internet interface (thus very big on multiplayer functionality... though you can make single-player games easily. Still, they are rare on BYOND nowadays *shrug*)
- Not sure if this is good or bad, but BYOND generally has 3 windows: the interface window, status/command bars and the text window. I've taken a pic of the PRPR update to demonstrate this view... BAH and I can't add it because I don't have 15 posts -_-


PROS
- Excellent sprite support. The icon squares are 32x32, but I know how to multitile icons and thus they can be pretty much any size you want them to be.
- 8 directional movement. You can actually set it per sprite, so some onely have 4 dirs or even 1 dir!
- Free exposure! If you make it on BYOND, especially if it has my "name" on it, it will get a fair deal of interest from BYOND players who like Pokemon.
- Very versatile. You can do tons more stuff than RPG maker lets you do, including write your own combat system, have status windows and use html!

CONS
- Interface is very different to RPG maker so it may or may not be good for you
- As for backgrounds, they are handled in a funny way. I'm not entirely sure if you can get what you want with BYOND. It's not so great with moving backgrounds in my experience. It's probably possible to ad-lib it but it's really a decision of whether you want the easy way or the way that whips the coder...

And uh, caterpillars? I assume you mean like trailing sprites that follow the main one around. BYOND doesn't have direct access to them, but again they can be coded.

I suppose the best way is to just show you what BYOND can do as opposed to telling you, but you at least have an idea before I show you around PRPR.

[Kine]

Well, the gist of it is I just want the game to go from looking like this (scroll for screens, no time to pull em out) (http://www.enterbrain.co.jp/tkool/RPG_XP/eng/) to this (http://starmen.net/mother2/images/screenshots/), systematically. I would've linked gameplay videos but I'm at work and YouTube just ain't happening here (sheesh, the one other time I could actually use the site...). Starmen probably DOES have gameplay vids, though. Everything you see in that game? I'd like the same function. Maybe not every last detail but still. So whatever engine can do that short of straight coding from C++ (unless the suggestee wants to do it).

I'm not to sure what to make out of BYOND just yet. I've never used RM2003 or any RPG making software before, so I'm not particularly picky, although I will say that I went right for XP just because I already had the source for moving battle BGs from Starmen for it.

For sprite flexability, well with RMXP size has never been a problem, or palletes or anything. The biggest problem is the fact that they only allow 4sprites per character. You can add sources to change sprites, extend how many is needed, etc, but this I frankly feel is stupid. Is there a source code that allows you to let you suggest how many sprites a character can have (more or less than 4 a row)? Yes, but not compatible with the script I'm using. But RPG Maker shouldn't have to force you to do this stuff anyway. I would expect a system that calls itself RPG MAKER would make some of these things standard, it's the sole focus! Why would you bother to [blah blah blah end user blah blah efficiency poor documentation on and on] but I guess beggers can't be choosers. I shouldn't turn this into my concerns with RM's interface.

Erm, anyway the sprite problem is me getting in about the 25+/- sprites I have per character just for one scene (exaggeration? It may come to that). And while I could use a self switch (like I do for NPC speaking), you can only have so many, and any detailed scene is gonna make use of unique sprites and visuals you only see once or twice, kinda giving the characters more of a diverse/personal feel and less of a "I'm pixels just standing here" idea. The game is more like an interactive story, actually, so the character actions and the like is very important.

And that, everyone, is why I'm so adamant about engines and sprite management. If I have to do it the hard way, that's the way cookie crumbles, but I just know there HAS to be some super efficient method.

That's also why there's thousands of them, outside of many many NPCs.

Actually, that whole thing was sort of an indirect response to what you said about BYOND's sprite support, Perpetr8r. If it can do that, then cool.

Then again... I gotta have my battle BGs... that's one of those visions you've had for a creation that's lasted many years, and if you have the opportunity to finally get it in, oh you're going to take it.

If you have a test game (can be a tutorial) or a video, send that to me via email so I can test the engine out, or at least see it in action.

[Perpetr8r]

Weeeeeell...

If you want to do that with sprites, BYOND handles it great. The way BYOND works is thus (god I wish I could link right now):

For starters, you create an icon file. In this icon file you can create either single states (which are basically a non-moving sprite for say terrain) or animated sprites, called icon states. The animated sprites can be set to animate by themselves or to animate only when something using the icon moves. You can have 1, 4 or 8 directions on the animated sprites and you can set the number of images in the animation.

So, you can have 4 directions but no animation for example, or 8 directions and 10 frames of animation for each one!

With regards to everything else...

It's doable. It's killing me to admit it because I know that only a really skilled BYOND programmer can pull it off with lots of work, but I AM a really skilled BYOND programmer... Those pretty text windows you have linked me to? A few months ago I wrote my own script for those windows, complete with custom border support and window/text color. I could even write a system that allows you to make on-screen selections with a cursor like that... Again, lots of work. The problem mainly with this is that if I were to get hit by a train mid-development you'd kind of be stuck unless you could get a good BYOND programmer to pick it up again, and there aren't many of those around.

Even movable backgrounds should be doable, provided you make the animations yourself. BYOND doesn't provide realtime graphics manipulation to the extent of making things distort and then put themselves back together again. I could really speak for hours on what BYOND can and can't do and not be finished, so instead I'm going to open up PRPR 4.0 and fraps and record you a demo movie of some of the stuff BYOND can do. Still, I'm happy to go RMXP for you if you want, we'll just have to deal with it not being perfect I guess.

[Kine]

Actually I don't know if RMXP can do that with BGs. It doesn't matter right off the bat as the battle BGs are just ripped images from MOTHER 2 and 3. It's just for the last battle that I'd need a new BG, as it would follow suit of the last bosses of 2 and 3 (mainly 2's, 3's version was cut and replaced, only to be found through hacking). Actually if I can find a program outside that can do that anyway I can just save the results frame by frame (even if that means a zillion print screens), kinda like what the Battle BGs are like now anyway (that said I don't actually use a zillion BG images. THAT would slow the game down).

Oh yeah, it can use MP3s or such, right? I just don't think MIDIs are going to cut it for this game.

[Perpetr8r]

I had a look, and the definitive answer is no. Here's what the "manual" tells me:
"The MP3 format is not presently supported by BYOND due to licensing issues. Ogg-Vorbis, however, is a good alternative. For music the module formats are also a good choice, and tend to be smaller. "

I didn't know RMXP could play mp3 files, RM2k3 could only play midis and wavs as far as I recall. Also, I dug up my games collection and was pleasantly surprised. Not only is Boredom there, but almost every other game I'd ever made on RPG maker (2k and 2k3) was there too! Even Spirit Legend which I thought I'd lost!

Anyway, I now have lots of games I could show you, though anything other than Boredom has some RTP issues which make it unplayable until I find the rest of the files needed...

[Kine]

That's gonna be a lot of music converting... I looked up OGG already and found that while you could go from MP3 to OGG, that's not the best idea. I'll find a way. I'll do more work before MIDIs.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, just let me know what you want me to do, and I'll get right on it. Having dug up my old RM2k3 games earlier today, I feel even more inspired than before! :laugh:

[VarietyVidsnet]

This game looks really interesting.Will you be able to choose from which pokemon you would like to play as?And are those tiles yours that you made?

[Kine]

Nope. The game is more of a interactive story (and keep in mind this story continues after the game's ending), and therefore the characters are preset. I'm wondering about nicknaming, though.

The tiles are sorta half and half, for now. A LOT of structures in Green Town, for example, I had to make myself because they simply don't exist otherwise (this is fine, I like making stuff myself). Poke Forest, though? It's pretty much whatever I can get from Teri/Sunshine Forest in M3. And Mt. Skyway's featured panoramic (they change depending on elevation) I made myself, along with some of the mountain structures (like the cliff-bridge).

Considering there's some areas I don't think a MOTHER game has ever touched, there's still a lot of unique areas to go, plus, each town has unique buildings to it (and places to go). That's a lot more work but it adds to the overall "personality" of each area.

Oh, and now that it's finally the weekend, Perpetr8r, those files you sent, are they part of the game or something? I couldn't ever get to it during the week so I don't know what I was really supposed to do.

[VarietyVidsnet]

Oh alright so you made some and you found some.Anways this game is looking really good try to release some screens.

[Perpetr8r]

Oh yes. You have to download them all and then unzip the first with winrar and that will unzip them all. Then you run the setup and can just play the game.

Also, there's another game I'd like to show you if you want to see more of my work. I went looking for some old games and lo and behold I stumbled across the magnum opus of my RM2k gaming-hood: Spirit Legend. It's not finished but there's about 2 hours of gameplay in it, and it has some unique gameplay elements, even though the storyline is a little uh, amateur.

I've been messing with some of my old games to get a feel for RPG maker again in case you want to use it still, and I'm pleased to say that I don't seem to have forgotten much! So yeah, all systems are go.

[Kine]

I played a bit of the boredom game. It was pretty funny, especially the part about Evil blowing things up twice.

But at any rate, I thought it was gonna be in BYOND. Is that link in your sig a game in BYOND, and would that be a good way to test the engine or what?

Anyway, it may be a while off before we ever get to any coding or whatever, I suppose if you want you can read up on how Ruby in XP works, or maybe you're good at graphics? I could always use a lot more graphic artists.

[Perpetr8r]

Eh heh.. compared to you I'm a total amateur with graphics. I DO however have the first 251 Pokemon from Pokemon Mystery Dungeon ripped and converted into 32x32 walking sprites, though I don't think that helps. And yes, if you WANT, the game can be in BYOND. Boredom was just a demonstration of my games, and the link in my sig DOES go to a BYOND game I made.

Um... what else... oh yeah, I don't mind how long it takes since I have more than enough to keep my plenty busy as is. Just let me know what you'd like to do or try and when, and I'll get onto it.

[Kine]

That I can use. Actually, if you have a sprite sheet of Pokemon from 120 to 151, Houou, Togepi, Pichu, Marill, Snubble and Donphan, that would be most helpful. Spriters Resource only has up to about 122 or something (I can never remember who all is in that group, the whole Magmar-Jynx- Scyther group), and I only need Gen 1 Pokemon plus whoever was revealed at the time (and Pichu). I won't use the sprites, of course, but PMD sprites are good for getting all angles of Pokemon, because save for the anime, you never get a really good view of them. I'd hate to just make guesses on what backsides or some such look like. This isn't a problem for Pokemon I've been drawing forever but like Blastoise or Gyarados, yeah I can only assume...

[Perpetr8r]

Well the icons are all in dmi form, which is BYOND's form of icon. However, they can be simply copied and pasted into any graphical program from BYOND (since they are stored as bitmaps in the dmi files). So yeah, if you don't mind downloading BYOND, I don't mind sharing the icons (provided you keep them to yourself/poke island, since these icons were ripped by my hard working friends). If the file doesn't end up too big, I can email them to you.

[Kine]

Fair enough. I'll let you know when I download it, which may be a while now the the weekdays have started again.

[Kine]

Bumpty

Alright, a couple of weeks later and now I've downloaded BYOND.

Now what happens? Also, I remembered I would need those PMD sprites. It occured to me again one day when I was doing more sprites and was like "wait... I don't know how this guy looks at this angle". I think it was Pinsir. =\

By the by, I think someone by the name of Mr.Accident at Starmen.net is working on some sorta battle BG extractor/editor something like that. That'll definately help with what I was meaning to do for the last battle if all works out. Just thought I'd mention that considering how I was talking about that for a while.

[Perpetr8r]

Well... BYOND has two features once installed. The first is dream seeker, which allows you to play BYOND games, such as the one in my signature. The other one is Dream Maker, which is the games making part. I'm uh... well it's been over 24 hours since I last slept so I'm kind of dizzy and not thinking straight so I think I'll go lie down now. I'll send you those sprites soon... but they are only 4 directional (just a warning)

[Kine]

Okay. I may have a chance to fiddle with it this weekend. Hopefully it's not a contrived program. Also, the 4 directions shouldn't be a problem... except where they will be (uh oh, Gyarados >_>). If I know where to find them in game (or some sort code to change the main character), then I can get the rest.

[Perpetr8r]

I've sent you the files. Sorry 'bout the lag time, it's the build up to exams and I'm pretty much flat-out studying.

[Improfane]

Module music formats are the best! I highly recommend them.

Although I doubt you'll find readily usable music. You can't easily convert existing music to it either. You'd have to get permission from the various artists or make your own, if you're good at the keyboard.

The animations on your website are simply amazing. I'm suprized you aren't a girl. If only you wrote tutorials like that and how to animate so well. I watched all the Kirby and Pokemon as a big fan of both.

[Lady Berlitz]

This is looking incredible, Kine. Actually, like Avatar said, this is one of the better looking projects on the board that has been coming up recently, so I wish you look with this. And, is this supposed to resemble Mystery Dungeon, because it looks a great deal like it!

[Kine]

Perp- No prob. Still not in any stage to code anything yet, uh... well just so you have something to do, though, tell me if tilesets are anything like RM, and if it's more or less flexable.

I plan on creating full maps, and then either importing it straight or chopping it into pieces because there's too much structure in the enviroments to just have tiles haphazardly placed all over. Especially when it comes to lining stuff up. On top of that, the game moves on a pixel by pixel basis, so I can't have everything uniformly in tiles like a traditional Pokemon game anyway.

Improfane- I actually have both ModPlug Tracker and Fruityloops, but I'm still no composer by and large. The only songs I've made was a sort of Panel de Pon esque panic song just incase I ever got around to creating a sort of PdP using later PI series characters, and a remix of the Insane level of Kirby Star Stacker, but they're far from useable quality.

I'm more than likely gonna hire a musician anyway for the several tracks I need specially composed. I'm not too worried about a full ST, though, as s/he probably doesn't have that kind of time and I know I don't have that kind of money.

And the girl thing... it never fails. There's been plently of people who otherwise had me mistaken.

Esmas - Thanks for the compliments. If anything, though, PMD resembles this (not entirely). PI existed long before then. It's closer to EarthBound, though, and in my own twisted way is related to the MOTHER series, not to a point where I'd label it a MOTHER (fan)game, but more than just some winks and refs.

It's a tie in I can get away with, though, considering R/G/B/Y was actually indeed inspired by the MOTHER games but I think beyond that it became it's own thing (considering G/S/C and up seems like a whole different ballpark), Creatures Inc once being Ape Inc, Hirokazu Tanaka, Benimaru Itoh, etc...

[Perpetr8r]

In RPGMaker, you import tilesets and they are auto broken-up for you, and you can only set certain values for them. In DM, you make your own turfs completely from scratch, and can give them any kinds of attributes you can code. You can also make turfs which are subsets of other turfs and inherit all of their basic functionalities plus more.

For example, you can make a water turf (which is only passable by water/flying Pokemon) and make a deep water turf which is the same as water, but can also be dived in. Or, without making a sub-turf you could make a secret wall doof turf which is completely different to your wall turf but has the same icon. You can even have turfs based off of turfs based off of turfs... like, well I can't imagine why you'd go that far but it's doable.

Maaaan... pixel by pixel collisions are gonna be a pain in the ass. I'm going to start looking up some libraries for it on the BYOND site and doing a few test programs to get used to it before I try implementing anything. Pixel movement shouldn't be too hard, but yeah unless you intend to have the entire tile of the ground be collide-able I'ma have to figure something out...

[Kine]

Wait, don't. Not yet.

It's getting icreasingly harder to choose which engine I want to use in the long run. What I need to do is have a sort of pros and cons list of both, and see which of the two has the pros outweigh the cons, or if that doesn't happen, which has less cons.

I think you've done this already with BYOND, at least some pros, but now I'm gonna try to see it side by side.

~RPGMaker~
Pros:
- Since most people use it, there's more support for it.

Cons:
- Sucks with sprite allowance. I absolutely need to have a lot of sprite allowance.

~BYOND~
Pros:

Cons:
- No MP3 support (music conversion's gonna take a lot of time, and I don't even know if the OGGs will even play on a person's computer who doesn't have a method of playing it...like mine)


Okay the list is thin, I forgot a lot of stuff. Both forgot and just don't know. A potential con for BYOND, though... do you have to sign up to play games or can you create an executable file? I know I'm gonna lose some people if they gotta sign up just to play it. Then again, in a way I guess that keeps the program more secure.

It's reasons like the above as to why I can't come to any definate conclusions. I'm going to go back to spriting now. It's a safe mindless task. ^_^;

... well there's always Game Maker... '~'

[Perpetr8r]

Well, no worries about the pixel thing, I didn't get time for it thanks to exams. IN any case, I BELIEVE that you can create an exe using BYOND which allows people to run the game just fine without ever downloading the BYOND files, and I know there's an option that allows people to play without creating an account.

It's probably best if you play with BYOND a bit if you want to make that list. I can tell you stuff but it's not necessarily going to be a pro or con to you. If you personally do it you'll surely get a good idea of if you want to mess with it or not.

[Kine]

Cool. Does it come with tutorials? I think I mentioned it before but one of the suckier things about RM was that it barely had documentation. I can't just jump into a product, I gotta read up on it and do side by side projects, that is, a tutorial.

You don't know how long it took me to figure out why tilesets weren't importing right in RMXP. No docs, and apparently no one ever tells you the FULL explaination on forums. -_-

Soooo, help me avoid 2-4 weeks of trial and error, please?

[The Dash]

I'm pretty sure that Rpg Maker XP has a very large Sprite Allowance dude.. But I've been out of it for a while.

[Perpetr8r]

Yep, BYOND has tons of tutorials, including the thing I used to get started, the DM guide (I would link but again I don't have enough freaking posts >_>). Anyway, you can find the DM guide and many other resources if you go to the BYOND games page and click "Create Games" in the sidebar on the left. Also, players make their own tutorials and libraries, so you'll often have the code you need already made for you, which is pretty handy.

[Kine]

Cool beans. I'll give it a go sooner or later.

Dash- Yeah... if you can make a code for it. And even then it's gotta be compatible with everything else. That's the main problem. Remember, by sprite allowance I don't mean size, I mean quanity (trust me, I know for a fact there's going to be a scene where a character has about 30+ sprites in an event you'll see all of one time). And you only have a few self switches.

And every character is different. Pikachu's walk is four frames total, but Pidgey's hop only three. Tauros probably five... Stuff like that, I don't want to have to be tied down to a standard.

[Perpetr8r]

Did you get the gajillion icons I sent? I forgot to ask about that...

EDIT: Nevermind, I'll just assume you did

[Kine]

Yeah, I got them. Sorry for not mentioning that. I know you've gotten the email message, and I got your reply on that, too.

Otherwise...

Well, people, I edited the first page with information regarding a Creative Worlds update on this. Again, it's not a ploy to get people to go, it's because I don't see a need to write everything up again here when nothing is really going on, here.

[τ●ҭ٥мϑƿ™]

Well the intro and the storyline is quite superb ^^

[Renagadez]

You have caught my attention,normally I would just breeze through all these "never will be finished" pokemon games but yours stuck out to me,I love your idea of fusing the style of Mother games and put pokemon with it.And the concept is great :3 you imspire me to continue on an old project.I used the same mother style...but dont worry it wasnt pokemon. I just wanted to say you have my full support im rootin for yah

[Kine]

Nah, it's going to be finished, the absolute worst I believe will happen is that I'll end up settling for a super rush job. I'd have to literally be dead for me not to do the things I want to get done (it's all for the same reason I do everything on my sites... no one else is).

But yeah, I already know the stigma of RPG ideas never getting completed, I tend to recommend people don't get started on anything unless they really know how much of their personal time and talents (and even stuff they may not know) it's going to take. This one may not be finished for a long time but that's up to everyone else's discretion if they keep in contact with this or not, I'm not going to send out reminders or anything. That's not to say I won't make an announcement of completion, but it'll probably be small.

[Perpetr8r]

Having made some games before, I know the level of commitment that has to go in. It's not such a surprise that many people drop their RPGs before they reach even halfway completion, given how much effort they take. This one shouldn't be too much trouble though, judging by what I've seen. It seems fairly manageable, unlike my personal projects!

[Kine]

Actually, I sorta thought the same. I looked at how involved some RPGs are with all sorts of extras like fishing or... hmm. It's not coming to me now but a lot of RPGs have so much little stuff to actually do that you'd have to know how to program in.

EarthBound's system always seemed extremely simple in comparision, save for the rolling HP and the Battle Backgrounds, which is actually some sort of mathematical program running that. Otherwise, you walk, talk, and beat people up. Everything is in the story, not in how many extras you can cram into one game.

That's why I can't see this being cancelled. It's just too darn simplistic. Again, the worst that'll happen is I get frustrated, and it's just full of imperfections and I have to leave out a lot of special cutscenes/reduce the sprite amount to only what is absolutely necessary. In fact, I could probably do the bare minimum and get this done within half a year (or maybe longer, depending on sprites), but that would be lame.

When it comes down to it, the only things outside of the gameplay that the game would need is a way to make characters slide on ice tiles (like Pokemon, in that they don't stop until they hit an object, and as far as RMXP goes, I have a source for that), an underwater air meter/counter, wind to blow characters around (slightly), overworld objects that can do damage (damage tiles I guess) like touching fire, and a sort of bestiary, except that it's really specific and only records certain characters after certain conditions are met (so it doesn't even have anything to do with fighting anyone).

The last thing actually seems like the only really difficult thing to implement. Probably the building of rather than the conditionals, though.

I am also contemplating whether or not I should do a slot machine. I didn't before and it's kinda of pointless, but EarthBound/MOTHER 3 sort of have one. And as far as games go, in M3, Lucas can play video games but only as something to watch him do. You hear all sorts of sound effects as he's frantically playing, just for him to end up defeated and embarassed. Neat extra touch, though. I'm thinking about just going that route, in that I really cannot see the need for a slots game in this game. If anything, it's just a throwback to Game Corner. Eh, that's a last minute detail I may or may not add in when everything else is finished.

[thompson]

Oh so this is going to have every pokemon? Or just the newer ones?

[Wichu]

If you look at the first post, he said it will only include the RBY ones, ie the first 151.

Have you tried RMXP.org for scripts? They might have something you need.

[Perpetr8r]

I almost wish I knew RMXP better, because you seem to be pretty set on using it, Kine. All of those things are doable, but it would be so much easier for me to work with a familiar system as opposed to learning everything again. Oh well, guess I'll just go with whatever.

[Kine]

thompson - Just like what Wichu said, the game's setting is still based on the past, so it only involves the first gen plus the ones who were already revealed around the time of the first movie. And Pichu.

Wichu - Yeah, I have an account there, but it's been quite some time since I checked up on it. If I were to stick with RMXP, I'd see more about getting what I need, more specifically as far as compatibility goes. But since that seems so far gone, I'm just focusing on the graphics part now.

Perp- Not necessarily, I'm just stating what I know about because it's just easier to give for examples. I'll try to use BYOND either today or tomorrow, you wouldn't believe how busy this holiday vacation has been if I told you. First, I gotta get AB updated, though.

[Perpetr8r]

Just letting you know I'm on vacation in the US until mid Feb so I probably won't be able to work on anything in that time.

[Kine]

Let me know when you get back, if not already back. I think we can start a test bed pretty soon.

[Da Man]

Are you the same kine that runs the Creative Worlds website?
Sorry for going off-topic.

EDIT: Yep I know those sigs.

[Perpetr8r]

Let me know when you get back, if not already back. I think we can start a test bed pretty soon.

Yeah, I'm back. I actually arrived back a few days ago... nice timing!

[feltpens]

Your custom character sets are incredible. What you have so far is amazing, if maybe in need of a little decoration. Best of luck!

[Kine]

I don't think anyone quite understands the multitude of character sprites that's going into this game. I plan to eventually write about this on my site whenever I feel like updating it.

I mean, there's so many Rattata and Pikachu (for examples) variations it's borderline ridiculous. I haven't really done much more with the landscapes, but I already know each area has it's own set of scenary (different houses, etc).

Little details like this make me feel like I'm probably doing a lot more work than was even put into MOTHER 3, but knowing what I know, that isn't fair to say, because MOTHER 3 had to be cut down some just to fit into the GBA cart. However, the satisfaction will be worth it, I feel. I just hope people actually notice this (maybe I should include a statement in game that says HEY! Pay attention to the scenary!) It may be minimalist, but there'll be a lot to take in.

I swear, the production time will probably take the longest because of graphics alone. Scripting events can't possibly take as much time.

And that brings me to the test bed, because I will hurt somebody, a lot of somebodies, if I end up 100%-ing the graphics and can't do anything with them (that's not supposed to be a threat, heh, but just an idea of how upset I'll be).

And I wanna be able to just get right into finishing up the game by the time graphics ever reach completion. So having everything else tested and coded on the side will make the transition and process easier/faster.

Perpet8tor, I'll probably have to get back to you on the weekend with the full details of what we'll use, but I wanted to know if you knew about this engine, as I found it while you were gone. I admit I'm still not 100% rock solid on an engine yet, but I'm going to finalize it by the end of March, that's for certain. Time is...well not money in this case, but precious life, at least!

So anyway, heard of OHRRPGCE (http://hamsterrepublic.com/ohrrpgce/index.php/Main_Page.html)? If not, it's okay. I just saw it was mentioned while reading about another not-really-useful-beyond-a-dash-function upgrade to RPGMaker topic at Starmen.

Here's some stuff off hand that we'll have to test out during the time graphics are being made:

- Battle BGs (if using Byond)
- Caterpillar style party (up to six people, although you wouldn't control that many)
- Along with the above point, making a sort of helper character that can't be controlled in battle, but can't be harmed, and does random actions on their own (people who played EB even for a minute, think King/Pokey/Picky).
- Otherwise, up to five party members in battle that can be controlled.
- Dash function
- A kind of dynamic way to change landscape (it'll change probably by a fade out, but I mean to replace a sort of daytime version with a nighttime version. It's probably really easy, but I'd manage to fumble that up somehow)
- Sliding tiles, like ice tiles in Pokemon where when you touch them going a certain direction, you keep moving until you hit an object/wall/not-ice tile.
- Damaging tiles/objects in the overworld.
- Hp reduction system (does not have to be graphically spectatulor like EB/M3, just perhaps an incremental countdown after you get hit to the new total, as opposed to just cutting straight to it. If it can't be done easily enough, no big)
- A way to sort of have an event happen just because you did/didn't do something, but it's not a real event. For example, which doesn't exist in this game, you walk off the mountain ledge and a "cutscene" kicks in of you falling down from where you walked off, fade out, fade back in to you being in some particular spot X where you get back up. Game goes back to manual, and you'll have to try climbing up again now knowing what not to do.
- Underwater air meter/timer.
- Way to replenish said meter.

That's about all that comes to mind. Beyond those particulars, the game should be fairly straight foward construction.

[feltpens]

Please accept my generic words of encouragement. You are very talented, and if not for our sake, for the Mother series' sake, the show must go on!

It's good that you have specific plans in place. This is always good.

Dude, if you need any help with overworld background graphics or something, drop me a line, PM-wise. I can try my hand at the Mother 3 style.

If not, I won't be hurt; I wouldn't let anyone else get near the graphics if I was making a game.

Good luck.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, looks like you have a good list of things to do there. It's all looking quite possible. As for that engine, I'm afraid I've never seen it before in my life... In terms of it any any other games-making engines though, if you use it you'll most likely be able to do the game completely on your own with no assistance (which could be beneficial to you I guess) as opposed to using a coding-intensive language such as DM (BYOND). While I can definitely do all of the things you've listed so far with BYOND, it's really a decision that should be made based on what you'd prefer. I'll be fine if you don't need me in the end as well.

[Kine]

feltpens, if you'd like to try your hand at BG objects, I could have you start on something small like grade school supplies (scissors, crayon box, microscope, etc). If you wanna do it, I'll send you a lot of M3 BG objects just to get an idea. Or you can do house interiors, most of which I can probably do anyway as that's mostly game ripped.

Perp, I dunno so much if I'd wanna use something too simple, because I feel like the professional like presentation will be lost.

I did forget to mention one more thing on the list, the most important, a kind of bestiary, like a Pokedex, except that it only records important characters through events and not enemies through battle. Kinda like Astro Boy: Omega Factor for GBA if you've played it.

It's like some kind of photo album, and it's set for one of each Pokemon (157 was it?), and in two cases, 2 of the same Pokemon. So it'd be a list of 159 all together. It's not necessary to complete, and since the game is closed ended (ends when the game is over), you'd have to get them all midplay, but it's an extra that was supposed to be in the original game, for the sake of giving every Pokemon a chance to have a role, something that later, Poke Tales, would take further.

[sprugles555]

The graphics are lovely, and gameplay is hopefully good. Pleasing to the eye. Great work :)

[Da Man]

How many pokemon are gonna be in this game?

[Wichu]

-_-
It was posted 2 posts above yours. 157.

[Perpetr8r]

157? If I recall, Pokemon Red, Blue and Yellow only had 151 Pokemon altogether... are there extras?

[Kine]

Yeah, remember? I didn't even mention that a page ago, it's like at the top. (| _ |)

[Perpetr8r]

Uhh... I am nowhere near a master at this, but I have a midi maker and I can actually make songs. If you'd like me to try, I'm willing to give it a shot, and then run the partially/fully completed songs by you for quality checking and feedback. That is, if there's a break in the coding or if you're not ready to start yet.

[Kine]

... The heck? Why did Pokecommunity truncate the last couple of posts?

Yeah, well I'm gonna reiterate what I said before, because it's necessary.

This game may take up to three years to complete, mainly determined by the amount of help I get on this. Sure, it's voluntary and people have other things that they want to, or have to, do, as do I. Buuuutttt, if I'm the only one doing anything, then no one can complain about the amount of time it takes to complete it.

Granted, I have some people helping here and there and I must say I'm grateful for it, because that really reduces the workload no matter how small. So it's not like I'm taking 100% credit for the effort.


I mentioned something about attacks. I'm going to use the EB PK Attack editor to make all the necessary RBY Pokemon attacks. At least that's my suggestion, so that they still look MOTHER 3-ish at best. Only other thing would be to just do it using Paint/something and drawing out the effects... unless the editor works by import anyway and it doesn't have an artistic program built in.

Either way, expect the attacks to be sort of abstract in the same way that EB/M3's PK attacks are.

And that's about it.

[Perpetr8r]

Wow, three years? Just how big is this game, or is it that you don't think you'll have the time to work on it?

Hmm... looking at all my posts, it seems I post too much. Mind you, maybe it's just because everyone else posts too little :P

[Kine]

It's not big a big game, the team's too small. That's why it'll take so long. If I had the 40-50 people Itoi had, well... we'd probably be done within a year and a half tops, and that's allowing room for people to take vacations/breaks/etc.

Of course, I don't know ANY fan game that's ever been the size of a full production team. So 40-50 is extremely unrealistic, but perhaps I can't even grasp how fast things'll go with a number that high. I honestly really can't.

About speaking too much, considering the simplicity involved in making a trainer type clone fan game (edit a few sprites, and that's kind of it beyond writing a story), more people get on board with that because... I dunno, familiarity. With this being more Mother and less Pokemon construction wise, I can't say too many people would quite understand what I'm doing in the first place.

Then again, Mother's no different than Dragon Quest, or so I know, but I've never played DQ.

[Kine]

Double Posting is bad, but the point is that once again I've updated with kind of new information. I don't think it says anything I didn't say here, though, I forget. Regardless...

This is why graphics takes so long. (http://www.creativeworlds.net/PIStuff/RattaPikaNPCs.PNG)

And that's not even all of the variations of those two, either.

[DarkPegasus]

XD So funny (yet cute), I really like the man in black/lawyer Pikachu ^^

[Perpetr8r]

Heh, now I'm posting too little! Uh anyway, I'm still here, just waiting for the go-ahead on whatever form of engine you want to use so I can start work. Until then, I'll keep working on my game, which is making good progress!

[Kine]

I've been working on a few BYOND tutorials, but I dunno, I have two questions that'll pretty much be the determining factor.

1) Is there any way to get rid of that chat window, or rather, just make a window for the game only? This should be presented like an SNES game, not an online game.

2) Maybe the tutorials just seem more code oriented, but is that all BYOND is? I mean, Game Maker and RMXP have both design and coding aspects, and what I can't really do in coding I could at least do more easily in design. Maybe the tuts I looked at didn't cover that... but if there's little to do in design time, I can't see how it'll be very helpful to me. It'll be just like my coding classes I couldn't pass all over again... too much abstract computations, not enough visualization*.


* As I recall, Visual Basic was at least sorta easy BECAUSE you could build in design time, but that's aside the point.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, I can answer those.
1 - In the new BYOND, 4.0 there MAY be a way. I'd need to check, because I know you can't do it in 3.5, but 4.0 lets you mess with all the windows so possibly.

2 - Yes. You need to make a map file, which allows you to place things on it RPG-maker style almost. Thus, the map is the actual design/visual part, and the coding is what makes everything work. Kinda imagine RPG maker XP with the only trigger functions being made in Ruby. That's more or less how BYOND works.

Sorry for the short post, but I gotta go. I hope that explains it enough!

[StrawyBlood]

That game looks so cool! if there is a demo or something like that cause i want to play it ^^
the rattata with the pikachu hat looks cute! :3
Did you made the game with XP? cause... wow i'll never could do something like that X3

[Kine]

Whoops! Didn't know there was a post above this.

I don't think there'll ever be a demo, although I will allow several people to do error testing and such, and just general feedback on the environments. The idea is that want the game to just be 100% done before it's ever released publically, like any actual game. Now, I may make more videos, but nothing has really happened since the last video as I've just been doing graphics only, and I couldn't settle on a game engine. I think, though, that now the engine of choice is going to be finalized.

But for what was shown, yeah, that was using RMXP. It's such a graphically unfriendly program. XE


@Perp. Then it comes down to that window. It's an aesthetic that I just do not want there.

I'll manage the sprites out somehow in RPG Maker if I have too.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok well I did some research and it turns out that yes, you can remove the text window and indeed any other elements you wish from the BYOND interface. I'm not sure about the command bar at the bottom, but tonight if I feel well enough I will have a mess around with the new interface and see if I can get just the map screen going. At worst, you'll have that command bar at the bottom and the map screen on its own.

EDIT: Turns out you can remove the command bar too. Neat!

[Kine]

Oh thank God. Hey, can I get a screenshot or something of what the end result will look like without all that clutter?

OH oh, one other thing. 8 directional pixel by pixel movement (instead of tile). It can be done, right? When I was working with it, I could only manage tiles, but I assume that's just default.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, because I'm such an awesome BYOND coder (:P), I can rewrite the Move function to make the players move pixel by pixel instead, it'll just take a decent amount of coding. As for the screen, I'll need a little while to play with the commands so I know what I'm doing, then I'll post a screenshot here so you can see.

Also, my current work schedule is Monday, Tuesday and Friday, so I won't be able to do much during those days, and of course it'd be nice to have some time off otherwise. Still, I'll try and prioritize your project when I do get free time... *is typing this at 1AM*

Further note: I live in Australia. My Monday is like your Sunday night and Monday morning or something, and that works for the rest of the week too.

[Kine]

Alright, well I'll await that (pic). Other than that, the first thing I'll have you do is just the movement alone. I'm not sure which version you're using, though.

[Perpetr8r]

I'm using 3.5, but for your game I'm going to switch to 4.0 so that I can turn off the interfaces you don't want. The coding is exactly the same, at least. Anyway, I'm on my days off now so I have a little time to work on it. But first I have to sort out my girlfriend's birthday present - her birthday is tomorrow.

[Perpetr8r]

OK I'm double posting for the sole reason that I have something to show you and because of such I want to make sure it's seen.

I present to you: a very basic idea of what the game screen CAN look like without the text window or that command box. Ignore the weird graphics... I imported my character and some of the icons from my game onto it so that I could walk around and set up pixel-by-pixel movement (not done yet).

Now as a note, you can mess with the interface literally however you want, and it turns out it's actually very simple, as well as there being a massive tutorial on it too. You can change everything you see there, besides maybe that little BYOND symbol in the top left corner. Everything from the menus to the map size to the window color and size itself are customizeable. I simply filled the screen with the map because of a peculiar thing that BYOND does if the map isn't PERFECTLY the right size which causes some blurriness.

Anyway, you can add anything you want to that area: Text boxes, browser windows, stat panels, grids etc etc. I never really knew how powerful 4.0 was until I started messing with it, but it really gives lots of artistic freedom. The movement thing is what I'll be doing next, so sometime within the next few days I'll be able to demonstrate what it looks like. Also, with the graphics, you can obviously make them much more detailed than that. I'm just using my old clunky 16 bit sprites in 32 bit format XD

P.S. That's a 640 by 480 window. I set it so the player can't resize it or anything, but it can be as big or small as you want.

[Kine]

Eh, that symbol in the corner would've been there anyway... well, unless you can change icons (I think you could in Game Maker, for example). That's not a problem.

Alright, that's what I want the screen to look like.

I asked about the version, so that way we'd be on the same level. What I will/was gonna do was to place some of the graphics in the game already (since I can do the design elements), and then just send that your way via email. Then we just pass that file back and forth with more graphics as needed and code and such.

Of course, I'll have to both download version 4, as well as get used to the design part in general. I'm gonna work on it on this side very basically (like how to get a character to move facing the correct directions and all), using the default settings. Although I'd have the diagonal directional sprites imported, for me understanding this, I probably won't use them. I'll also try see if I can do key presses, maybe to run or something (which'll also cause the sprites to change). I just want to be sure I can do some of the basic stuff myself, if worse comes to worse, AND because I don't want to burden you with all the coding work, unless I cause more problems than alleviate.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, before we go too far, let's make sure I can get pixel-by-pixel movement working as required. I've been playing with it and have had some interesting results, none of which have been what either of us have really wanted. While I still have a few avenues left unexplored in terms of coding possibilities, if I can't get it to work right it may throw a giant wrench into the BYOND works.

Mostly, my problem is that it won't animate when they move now, and even though I can force the animation, the next problem is they don't actually move so much as teleport. Anyway yeah, if you can wait a day or two I'll know for certain if I can get it to work right or not.

As for the rest, that sounds good. I'm commenting everything I code so that you might be able to understand it basically enough to mess with it, and furthermore I'll add things in such a way that you can use them without having to know too much about the actual code. (For example a screen message system that simply displays the text on-screen, and all you'd have to do is call that system from within your own code)

Anyway, I'm late for work now, so I'll get back to this later. I'll also show you what I've learned about the layout so far so you can play with it at that time as well.

As a final note, I can send you my current code which is VERY simple, and you can work with that if you want, so you have a base to begin from.

[Kine]

You'd think someone would've made an engine where all this nonsense is standard by now. >_>

[Perpetr8r]

Truly... anyway, just a status report for now. So far, I've managed to make a few things work better, at the cost of a few other things. At this point, there's nothing that I can offer that's working and doesn't look weird, but I've been asking around on the BYOND developer forums etc in order to get more info on the subject (the programming language is angry at me for abusing its inbuilt systems).

So far, they haven't been all that helpful, however, if I can just fix this animation thing I should have it all working nicely. I'm going to watch that intro vid you made again, just to make sure I have this set up right.

EDIT: Ok, I'll try not to get your hopes up, but it seems that I have a pretty decent idea of what I'm doing now and it MIGHT be working properly. Now, I need to sleep before I finish this, so 9 hours from now I'll be back up to finish turning the algorithm into actual code. But in any case, I have gotten fairly fluid movement AND pixel-by-pixel movement happening alongside each other, and now I'm working on making the speed work correctly. If I can do that, the rest is history. I swear, it'll be the only BYOND game to offer that level of fluidity if it works >_>

[Kine]

Now a good time to reiterate what I said in my last post. Well it WOULD be.

Well, I'll just wait on the side lines for the time being. I should go check RMXP forums again just to see if there's a source code for 'allow as many sprites as necessary, and change them as necessary' or something like that.

That is, Pigdey has a three frame walk (technically hopping, so I couldn't use frame 2 as frame 4), I don't want to put a filler frame as number 4 to screw things up. Tauros has a five frame walk. Charmander has like a 9 frame idle animation. Yeah, I said this before but I'm reiterating for the people who are looking in on this from the outside. So yeah, that's why I'd like to avoid this program if at all possible, not that the game itself should be any harder to put together. And I just haven't seen any source code (up to the point I made that video) that allows multiple sprites as well as compatibility with other co...

ARGH. Compatibilty. Yeah, THERE'S another problem.

Screw it I'll say it again, you'd think someone would've made an engine where all this nonsense is standard by now. I'm guessing these guys have never touched a non tile based not very lively 2D RPG. Doesn't make sense, whoever's developing these had to be old enough to play a Super Nintendo...

While I realize beggars can't be choosers, or rather, if you can't code it yourself you probably shouldn't complain, isn't it just a bit strange that it appears none of these RPG Engines' creators have even conceived the THOUGHT of making pixel-movement/eight directional/tag along partners/BLOODY SPRITE ADJUSTMENT, at least all in the same engine?

[Perpetr8r]

Compatibility? With what?

Anyway, after a ton of coding, I have succeeded in making a partially successful walking system, where the player doesn't move at a snail's pace and yet does pixel-by-pixel movement. Currently though, I broke the walking animation in order to make it work, and now I can't get it going again. Also, the camera movements are a TINY bit jerky, which I can't control, though I did my best to reduce the jerkiness. There's no collisions yet, so you can walk through things, and last but not least for some reason if you hold down the movement button the player does a sliding-on-ice effect and continues moving for a few steps AFTER you release it. I think it actually stacks subsequent calls to movement on top of each other, so it builds up like 5 or 6 extra movements in its little queue (which NATURALLY I can't touch) while you're holding the button down.

Freaking BYOND... Of course, I'm still messing with it, and I've dealt with more impossible-seeming problems in the past. My success so far has been heartening, and I may just be able to get you what you want. However, if by now you're utterly terrified of me torturing this system into working for you, let me know so I can stop messing with it.

[Kine]

By compatability, I mean how one person's code doesn't work with another's. Not that they should ALL work together. I think, however, the last time I used the pixel movement code for the PI test, it was still being worked on were it would allow other code compatibilty. That's why I should check up on it. The pixel movement source was HUGE, and had a lot of stuff (heck, most of the game's special features run on that one source). So if it's been upgraded, I might be able to find and throw in a sprite de-limiter. Of course, I need many other things like overworld enemies that chase you (pixel movement), respawning of enemies (because as of now, once you kill them, they're gone for good, which doesn't make for a good leveling up system), icy ground, dangerous ground, etc. And while I've seen things for each of them, I can't throw them in hodge-podge and expect it to work (too much conflictions).

Otherwise, without compatibility, you sort of have to code all the features of your particular game yourself, because then you know everything works with your system.

As for what you're doing, I guess it comes down to what's easier for you. Don't work yourself over if things don't seem to work out just right. I admit I'm concerned about the problems that'll come down the line, though, by messing with just the walking alone.

[Tré]

whoa!!this is great pokemon plus inbound!!! its great!!!

[Perpetr8r]

Rrrgh... For whatever reason, my version of BYOND has completely stopped working. I can't even get it working when I reinstall it, and it's kind of screwed me over at this point in time. I have acquired a pixel-movement system that works though... I just can't set it up because my BYOND crashes everytime I open it. *sigh*

[Kine]

Tre_Al: Hah... inbound, that makes me laugh. It's EarthBound.

So how's the engine coming along? Still crashing or what?

At this point I can't do anything, as I have to focus solely on getting material for this convention I'm going to, so... you can use this time (it'll be about a month) I guess to either figure everything out, or in the case that's just not going to work, look into possible other engines.

I'll still check back here to see what's going on, though. I'm just saying nothing's going to be worked on for this game from me until the weekend of May 16th is over.

[Perpetr8r]

Ah, it's good to know I have some time. Yesterday I finally, FINALLY, got my BYOND to work again. Over the next little while I'll be pretty busy myself, since I have to look after my brother and the house all on my own, but I'll begin putting the pixel movement engine into the game base and testing it etc. Anyway, I'll keep you posted here about what I've managed to get going and if you feel like sending me some icon files to add to the game then feel free; I'll put them in, provided I get the other system working.

Have fun at the con!

[Kine]

Aight, I'm back now. How's it workin' out?

I'll send some things to you when I get situated. I'll send the diagonal sprites soon, too. Make sure those can be displayed.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, I fell in a large puddle of real life, which sometimes and without warning tends to clog up my otherwise pristine computer time. Aside from my usual chef work, my mum went out for a week and a half and left the house to me to look after, then I had a big award ceremony for a games project last semester (which was a waste of time to attend) and then we got a notice for a house inspection so I spent several fun-filled days pulling weeds out of pavers.

Also there was a decent amount of slacking off in there, but since you're back now I should really get back to work... It helps that all the award ceremonies and chore piles are done with for now.

I have to say, I do love how simple RPG maker makes things, but I can see how it won't really do what you're hoping for without tons of programming - which makes it moot since BYOND involves programming anyway and is more versatile. I think it'd be nice for both of us if more programmers volunteered, else you're gonna end up waiting on me at some point or another (either from slow progress or just from me being too busy to create system X or Y straight away). Still, I'll do my best to keep things smooth for you and get stuff done on time.

I'll have a status report on the new movement system somewhere within the next few days. If it works or not, you'll know by the end of this week tops.

[Kine]

Sure enough, what you said is true. I've always felt that way, and on top of that, I really don't like putting all the work on one person. It just feels like a lame thing to do. =(

Well, considering no one else here volunteered, and I don't think anyone at Pokemon Elite responded at all, I'm going to try Starmen. I think EB fans are a bit more decent anyway (hey, before anyone get on me for that, well, observational wise... eh, just read that Nidorino comic collection I made. I don't feel like explaining it).

I figure someone might lend a hand, but first maybe I should have a bit more done. Like, say another town or so. Or even the first town.

On a more personal note, I hope it wasn't all too much for you to handle. Especially if you got the notice while your mom was away!

[Perpetr8r]

No, fortunately she got back a few days before it came, but that may have been worse. You should see the chore list she made!

Sheesh, people are lazy. I'm surprised there aren't more people willing to help out, especially when there's such a great artist on the other end of the game. I guess they are all off doing their own things?

Ugh anyway, I plan on putting this system together tomorrow (for me, which is Thursday). It's gonna be a big day 'cause there's STILL more chores to do and I randomly decided to make my own little card game yesterday at work and I'm trying to finish it now because it's such a fun idea.

Aw hell, lemme open this up now...

*sigh* Seems there are issues with it as well. I'm really at a loss for options now. See, the icons don't animate right now. Everything else more or less works, but it seems like a tradeoff between one and the other. I can't honestly see a way around this at this point, and I'm too tired to mess with the programming too much tonight.

Tomorrow I'll have another shot. If I get it working, great. If not, I think I'll have to concede defeat on this. Fingers crossed.

[Kine]

I think people just want more of the same. Consider how many Pokemon GS remakes you see...

Then again, I've always been the oddball when it comes to creating stuff. I usually do things I would have imagined someone else has done, but for some reason I always end up surprising people with my concepts (but why? Why am I supposedly the only one who imagines this stuff?).

Well, I'm gonna make an update possibly today that'll request more programmers. We'll see what happens down the line along with the post I'll make later.

[Perpetr8r]

Eh, I had a thought. Even if I do get the pixel movement thing going, it's going to cause more custom programming down the track since BYOND is expecting to work in tile-by-tile format. This means I'll have to code a new follow process to deal with Pokemon following you around and who-knows-what else. Bah.

Anyway, I don't think it matters because I've messed with the coding again and still no luck. Even if I do get it working, it's going to look jerky and kind of unprofessional, thanks to the way BYOND works. It's frustrating, but I think I have to throw in the towel on this one, unless of course you don't mind scrapping pixel-by-pixel movement, in which case I'm sure you would have mentioned that earlier.

Otherwise, yeah, I don't think it can be done. The movement itself is easy, but the way BYOND works is preventing it from animating properly, something I hadn't counted on. It's up to you what you'd like to do now; I'll wait to make any moves until you've made your decision.

[Kine]

Nope, I gotta have the pixel movement. I kinda figured that even if this was coded to work 100%, everything else from here would have to be redesigned.

Hmmm. I wonder what other programs exist... short of using C++. Well, not only will I ask for some extra help should I get it at Starmen.net, but I think I'll ALSO ask what engine makes RPGs play closest to EarthBound, in that perhaps they know something I don't.

I may just use RMXP, despite my reservations against it (sigh, it'd be all good if I could take the darn sprite limiter off, and every code was compatible with the rest). It would be that or Game Maker, considering those are the only two engine programs I have (barring BYOND, which I haven't made much prior use of, considering). I know sprites are "do as you please" in GM, but I dunno about it's capability to create RPGs so much, especially considering a lot of that stuff would have to be added in while at least RM has most of the silly functions standard.

I bet maps are also "do as you please" as far as placement goes in GM. Eh, I'm not to worried about tiles, I'm going to have each map made with a grid in Photoshop/Illustrator to align everything correctly, then chop it into pieces. From there I'll just stick everything together like a huge puzzle.

I suppose the single advantage to RM is that it's commonly used, so more people might be able to help. Of course, I dunno how that'll work. It is a Pokemon game (I say this with the idea that the brand carries a negative connotation), and considering I think you're the only person to offer any real assistance at a POKEMON forum (and a large one at that)... =\

Weelll, that's that. That list of things the game needs, I will need to copy it, so that way I can see what needs to be done.

[Waudby]

Nope, I gotta have the pixel movement. I kinda figured that even if this was coded to work 100%, everything else from here would have to be redesigned.

Hmmm. I wonder what other programs exist... short of using C++. Well, not only will I ask for some extra help should I get it at Starmen.net, but I think I'll ALSO ask what engine makes RPGs play closest to EarthBound, in that perhaps they know something I don't.

I may just use RMXP, despite my reservations against it (sigh, it'd be all good if I could take the darn sprite limiter off, and every code was compatible with the rest). It would be that or Game Maker, considering those are the only two engine programs I have (barring BYOND, which I haven't made much prior use of, considering). I know sprites are "do as you please" in GM, but I dunno about it's capability to create RPGs so much, especially considering a lot of that stuff would have to be added in while at least RM has most of the silly functions standard.

I bet maps are also "do as you please" as far as placement goes in GM. Eh, I'm not to worried about tiles, I'm going to have each map made with a grid in Photoshop/Illustrator to align everything correctly, then chop it into pieces. From there I'll just stick everything together like a huge puzzle.

I suppose the single advantage to RM is that it's commonly used, so more people might be able to help. Of course, I dunno how that'll work. It is a Pokemon game (I say this with the idea that the brand carries a negative connotation), and considering I think you're the only person to offer any real assistance at a POKEMON forum (and a large one at that)... =\

Weelll, that's that. That list of things the game needs, I will need to copy it, so that way I can see what needs to be done.

The sphere engine using a pixel movement system straight out of the box, and is flexible and you can do pretty much whatever you like in it.

The learning curve is slightly steeper than the RM series or Game Maker series though.

[Kine]

Uh oh. Well, I looked through the documentation for Sphere.

The good news is that it does seem rather flexible, and it claims to be stronger than RM. Also good is that I took classes in Javascript.

The bad news is that last point means nothing. I think I barely passed both classes. All it really means is that I have an idea of what some stuff means (functions, etc). Doesn't mean I know how to use them correctly.

The obvious news is that, and the documentation even states, that to use something like that, I would seriously need a team of people. It also states that it could be done alone, but considering me being in graphic design and not programming, that's... going to take a decade.

So if I did go that route, I would need to find some people who honestly have nothing better to do (than post at the thousands of forums they have bookmarked, and I'm sure that's a lot of people =P), and are willing to do whatever they can. There's never too many of any position, afterall, but I would still say programmers are the most important, in that I can't do much without them.

Musicians are still what I'm least concerned about... it's not even necessary yet.

I still wish I could hire some guys, but from what I've seen, they won't do fan games. With good reason, they need to have work done for portfolios and getting work experience, I seriously doubt that a fan game is going to look good on a resume. Still, there's gotta be a group of 16 year olds or something, where resumes are not a large concern yet, wants to make some easy money from some guy with money to spend [on and on]...

[Perpetr8r]

Hey, I think fan games would look great on a resume, provided it was professionally done :P
Personally, I'm not afraid of getting my feet wet with javascript. I'm already a moderately advanced programmer, and many of the core concepts of programming are shared between languages, which will make it easier. There's two difficulties though. Firstly, I know about as much javascript as you, probably less. Secondly, until we play with the engine a little bit we won't know if it suits your tastes. I'd hate to get midway and then discover X or Y can't be done. *cough* BYOND *cough*

Still, I'll definitely back you up with whatever option you pick, and having at least one coder will surely help. I know what it's like to be a coder without decent graphics and I'm sure it's similar the other way around. I've already downloaded sphere, and I might play with it a bit today or tomorrow to see if I can spot any potholes or if it seems like it'll work.

I have an aunt's wedding to go to tomorrow, so you probably won't hear from me until Saturday (for me).

[Kine]

Well, before I download anything else, I gotta clean some files off my laptop. Then I should get monday's assignment completed. After that, provided I made a little room, I'll download whatever this program's called again and see just how it'll work.

[Kine]

That cleaning isn't quite coming along fast enough, and I still have a lot of design projects to do. Well, that's what happens when you go to a year round school, no time for... anything but homework.

Well, I'll at least try to get a hold of it for the weekend, but I'm already planning on an AB update so I can't make too much time for it. If you've downloaded it, how does it look so far? Or a better question, how much interface is already there without me having to basically code everything into existance, including the screen itself? I gotta have a little interfacing in there, kinda like VB.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, I had a look. From what I can see, pixel-by-pixel movement is indeed in the game. The interface is well.... go back 13 years to 1995 and that's pretty much the level of graphics you get. It seems to run very large, pixel..ly sprites (which possibly is only because nobody could be bothered making finerr ones). Overall, it's looking to be a game quite similar to RPG maker, only you don't get events - you program everything by hand.

Really, you'll need to mess with it yourself to see if it's what you want or not. I can't honestly tell.

[Kine]

Well, despite the fact that I'm gonna wipe my harddrive anyway, with a bit of clean up I tried Sphere out. Well, it definately does what I want it to do sprite wise, and doesn't appear limited to palette. Now, while I couldn't import sprites (I checked the wiki and forums, but they don't tell me why I keep getting error messages), I made really crappy Kirby sprites in the editor, each with different speeds and different amounts of frames. Now THAT'S what I'm talking about. No limits!

Now, the map appeared much bigger than I thought, but considering there were no custom tiles, it was gonna look weird anyway. I'm pretty sure I can have it zoomed to a degree where it's not too zoomed in, that or the tileset'll look fine anyway, whichever.

Hey, and you can import maps, which might save me the trouble of the whole "jigsaw a full map" idea I was gonna use. Unless I'm mistaken and I have to do that anyway.

Well, design wise it seems to be in my favor.

Now, functionwise, however... eh. I didn't go beyond the scope of the tutorial that comes with it, but considering you said events need to be coded, that might include collisions, battles, etc. Which... I won't be so good at. I'm guessing, though, it can do battle backgrounds MOTHER style, plus I probably won't be at RPGMaker's limitation.

By that, I mean whatever is the amount of pics you set in the code is the total amount you can show, and if battle bgs have less, thats a problem. If more, they get truncated. Now, I'm not using each and every frame, that's hundreds of pics just for a BG, but still some will flow fine with just 12 images, while others may need 20 for example.

But judging by the flexability given already, this seems like the best for all the things I want to do in theory. It just comes down to getting it to work. Again, we'll have to do testbeds first before we get in too deep. I need to learn how to import stuff at all, first.

Since this is javascript, I think this'll open a few more doors w/ programmers since it's a widely known language, but... it may also close a few who only know game program languages. Well, at least NOW I can specify, that's better than "I don't know, yet".

[Perpetr8r]

Well tell you what, if you give me something to work with, I'll try and program a bit of a base to begin working off of. It'll be faster that way, rather than me programming something then handing it to you to add icons to, then you handing it back etc. Also, I'll be out of town for about the next week, just so you know. (Family trip)

[Kine]

Sounds good. Well, I'll send you some NPC and main character sprites through email, a tileset, and perhaps enemy sprites.

The way I see it, is work with the enemy last, since we'd have to do that anyway, I'm sort of sending it ahead of time. I'll also send the battle sprite, and perhaps the BG sequence (which I'd do that even later than getting the enemy to work at all).

The enemies are overworld, meaning no random battles, but there's a probability that they will respawn (when you go a little further than off screen where you fought them). That was something I couldn't get RMXP to do, even though it probably could've been done.

As of now, I'd say talking to NPCs and minimal collision detection is all that's necessary.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, I'm back from my trip and I got the files you sent. Now all that's left is for me to put it together and practice javascript so I know what I'm programming. I'll add more as soon as I have some progress to talk about.

EDIT: Ok, I've had a look at it and the programming language itself seems moderately easy since it's VERY similar to C in the way it works. However, it would make things MUCH easier for me if you went ahead and imported everything into sphere sprites (.rss) for me so that I could just put them into place rather than messing with the graphics utility, because I can't see an easy way of doing it. That means that it might take a long time and if I do that then everything will take even longer lol

Seems to me that the thing is even more low-level than BYOND, so we're going to have to write our own graphics routines for some of it too. I can assist with the programming part of that, but that will mean you'll also have to design what the menus look like and stuff like that. More info as I have it.

[Kine]

Updated page one of the topic just to note about progressive information on CW. Some of what's said you can find here, but what isn't I'm not going to repost because if only one person's helping from here so far, I'm not going to waste the time to repost.

Perp: For some reason that didn't occur to me. Okay, well, considering I have to work on finals and other things this week, it may not be an instant process, but I'll try to fit some time in during the week to get that to you. If the way I did it was correct, you could actually just make a full color solid block as a sprite (like a pink rectangle), and just use that as a place holder for the time being. I think once you do one, it will fill it in for all directions.

What about the tileset, though? Is that easier than the spriteset?

[Perpetr8r]

Sorry for the lack of response. Recently after getting back from my big trip I've thrown all of my energy into finishing my current game project so that I'm free to work on things like Poke Island. As such, it might take me a week or two to be free enough to really make good progress, but it sounds like you're busy too so that works out.

Anyway, tilesheets and spritesheets work in very similar ways, so that's not a huge issue. The biggest thing for me is that I'll need time to get my head around the new system etc and it's so much easier to work with pre-made sprites and backgrounds etc than with nothing. (It's hard to do it all in my head.)
So yeah, if you get those like ready for me it'll make my work 10x easier, and I can program stuff faster. I'll comment everything I do so hopefully you'll be able to understand most of it.

[Kine]

The good news is that I learned how to import sprites now. The better news is that I'm on my one week school vacation starting next week. =) Now's my best chance to get stuff done. I'll make the rss ASAP, after Sunday, though. Site update n' all.

[Perpetr8r]

I need to apologize again, because even more stuff has come up. Just under a week ago, my uncle was killed in a motorbike accident and my whole family on my mother's side has been totally devastated by it. I've had my hands full dealing with everything and just haven't been able to focus on anything other than one foot after the other lately. The funeral will be in about 4 days and my birthday is in 2 so yeah... Hopefully things will calm down after that. Fingers crossed.

[Kine]

Well, on one hand, sorry about the circumstances. I hope you and your family will make it through. On the other, happy birthday to you. Perhaps that'll bring in a little excitement!

As I always say, take care of business, first. I can hold on to the files and such (and add more to them if necessary) until you give me the okay. Just let me know when.

[Perpetr8r]

Quick update: The funeral is tomorrow and my brother's birthday is the day after, then the day after that I have to meet my dad for something and FINALLY after that things should return to normal. Fingers crossed.

[Mar876]

I dont get this game, is there a plot?

[Kine]

Yes, but like any game developer, I can't give any major plot elements away (and considering I wanted a career in game dev. before animation, I pretty much work more in the mindset of someone in the business).

I think I wrote something on the first page or on my production info page that you could get a plot element from, but don't worry, it all ties together. Only people in the major production will know anything ahead of time, but even then it's only if you're in it for the long haul. I don't just say "Here's the plot =D" when I have no guarantee one will give anything beyond their "word".

Considering it holds the starting point of the comic sequels, it'd have to have some sort of significance, as well.

Perp: I'm currently making the final map of Green Town, so I may hold off on giving you the stuff until then. Also, there's fewer sprites than given turned into NPCs because that's a long labourious process. That could be someone's job right there! @_@

But hey, I wanted to go the whole nine yards. That's what'll make the end result stand out iMO. Like Sonic XG or something.

[Perpetr8r]

That's ok. Drama keeps piling on at my end, though I think things have just about finally returned to normal, though university is starting again soon for me. Even so, I'm sure I can deal with programming stuff for you in between dealing with my own jobs, so no issue there. It's good to have no more stuff going bad for me, too >_>

[Kine]

Okay, this is going to take too long, Green Town's pretty big. I mean, it looks good so far, but there's a lot of stuff like rivers and such I have to still account for. On that note, we'll have to look into BG objects that actually move, I forget what those are called. That way the water looks like it's moving on the coast. If those are tile based animations, I can make those when I get there, it won't be hard.

Anyway, just go with the original plan. I'll send you some converted files via email. And if using given props isn't instantly easy, just use a fill bucket and color the BG green or something.

[Perpetr8r]

Well I'm still kind of waiting in the wings, as I haven't received anything yet. I don't mind the wait, but I just want to make sure it's indeed a wait and not you waiting for me to reply before you send them...

[Kine]

Sorry about that. I've been pretty busy last week, as well as attending a funeral and a weekend vacation, so I couldn't find the time. Anyway, when I'm off of work, I may be able to send them to you.

[Perpetr8r]

No prob. Life seems to be giving us both the shaft at the moment, though I'm sure things will calm down soon enough.

[Kine]

Continuing from the email...

Well, I did the map thing anyway. Plus, I think you can fill a whole area. I mean, I know I did once. It should be the paint bucket at the top right.

Unless you're using a different version?

Back to the map, it seems to scale it up to a large but still appropriate size, in that it doesn't over pixelate everything like the tutorial the program comes with did. However, I'd still want it to be windowed by default. Also, I gotta do something about the frame rate or... whatever. It doesn't seem to move in the same sense that a console game would. It's almost WAY too smooth, and I'm going for SNES scrolling, here. Not obvious fan game scrolling.

On the plus side, I can use the obstruction tool for collision detection. Not bad! The only thing, though, is that I better choose a good tile size to start with. The default is 16 by 16, which is fine, but I may need to change that when it comes to entering doors, which I'm sure is a coded event.

So far, the only problem with importing maps is that I don't think there's a way to make certain tiles a higher priority, so that you appear behind them. However, there probably IS a way, I just saw some option with "insert code" and left it alone. Plus, when you import maps, it breaks everything up into a 16 by 16 tile, so I could probably just create a new layer and reinsert higher priority tiles in the exact same spot.

Seriously, this import map feature will definately save us time. All I have to do is make all the maps like I'm doing now. =) Glad I figured this out, and glad Sphere has the feature.

I attached a screenshot of what it looks like. I know ya'll like my bad Kirby sprite. You want it on a graphic tee-shirt.

[Perpetr8r]

Um... wth? It looks like the forum is eating my posts. Maybe I'm just hallucinating...

EDIT: Nope, not hallucinating. It ate my post -_-

Here's what I had:
Well that's good. I don't know what you did that made it work, but so long as it works, who cares? Here are those screenshots I promised, with the really shoddy map I threw together in 2 minutes. Note how the ice reflects your character (also as a note, you can't see this but the frame rate drops a bit when you run over the ice. I think it's a bit CPU intensive...). Also, in the shadow one, you can see how the shadow covers Pikachu. The problem is that when he leaves the shadow it uncovers the wrong way, so instead of his head breaking into the light first, his feet do. You'd have to use those shadows for things floating directly overhead methinks....

Still no movement on the uh... movement. Mainly, this is because I had other work to do and didn't get around to working on it, but we'll see how I go.

EDIT AGAIN: Oh, and that's what the current menu looks like. It's the sample they gave me, so I'm working with it. Once I know what I'm doing I can experiment...

[Kine]

Ugh. That menu just won't work. I better get that interface going. Not that it'll be hard. I just wonder more if I'm going to do the battle interface EarthBound or Mother 3 style (the only difference is that in the former, when it's a character's turn, their small window is raised up above the others a bit, while the later, a sprite of the character pokes his/her head out of their window).

I won't reflect ice, and if it's graphics intensive, that'd be a really bad idea for one of the area's that's pretty much solely ice. The only thing I'd use it for is a possible mirror in someone's house, and even then that's absolutely not necessary.

As for shadows, I wouldn't use it in the traditional sense, but maybe to shade characters in caves. If not a pallet switch. Or I won't do anything at all, it really doesn't matter.

[Perpetr8r]

Sorry for slow replies. I've been having a lot of car troubles and stuff, and since uni's started up again I've had less and less time to work on my projects. Nevertheless, I'll be getting back to working on SE as soon as I have the chance.

[Kine]

It's no big, I've been rather busy myself, preparing for internships and whatnot.

It's so hard to determine a good time to try to find more help. You'd think it'd be the summer, but people get lazy. During school, people are busy.

I'm not talking about you, I'm just saying in general. I'm sure statiticians know what times of the year people are most productive, I need to find out when that is, so when I make some posts about this elsewhere, it's not at a bad time.

I know one things for sure, when I finally get my next big showing out, I'm changing my rules about work. I'm tiring of the really slow help I get at times. If you can't get things done in a week (and I mean spriters), don't waste my time. And stuff like that. I'm the most busiest person I know after my own mother and I can STILL get a full set done in an hour or two if the character's more difficult, so everyone else has no real legitimate excuse AFAIK. So I'm thinking of announcing something like that.

Musicians and coders are given a lot more leniency, though, as I'm more dependant on that. But it should not take MONTHS, and I'm talking several, here, for sprites.

[Kine]

Typical quarterly update. Top of first page explains changes/additions.

Perp, I haven't heard from you in a while. Could you let me know what's going on?

Also, the new work rule is in effect, not that you have to code in a week, but now I'd like to stay posted on things, even if much hasn't been done.

[Perpetr8r]

Erm yeah, sorry about that.

I really ought to be more vocal about my decisions when you're counting on me like you are, so I apologize for giving you the run-around. I don't want to make excuses if possible, so I'll merely say that I ended up giving myself too much to work with and haven't been keeping up with it properly. Unfortunately, I am the kind who tends to be really badly organized when it comes to these things. I'll try my best to get back on board now and make up for lost ground now though.

Basically I haven't really done anything since I last showed you my progress. Me getting sidetracked aside, this project is going to require a lot of time and patience as far as the coding goes. The language is pretty low-level, all things considered, so there will be a lot of extra work for any poor programmers who get stuck with the jobs. Admittedly, I've been hoping others would step up to help out with it so I didn't have to do all the hard stuff alone. I guess that hasn't happened or you'd have told me about it, so darn. An additional block is the fact that I have to LEARN the language as I go, which slows things down a lot.

To give you an idea of what you are facing, I'd say that the programming will take an estimate of 2-3 times the amount of time everything else will take (aside from say composing music if someone gets into that). That may sound a bit too high of an estimate, but believe me, even simple programming tasks can spiral into huge odysseys that take a long time to complete, and god forbid you only have one poor programmer stuck with the tasks.

Of course, I'm not complaining (since I knew what I was getting into when I offered to help out), though you can probably see why I've been procrastinating about it a bit. Anyway, this all has nothing to do with me not getting stuff done for ages, but I'm trying to give you a clear idea of what to expect in the future. I do have my own rl stuff to deal with too, including a big AI project this semester, so you can expect that I will get tied up with my own work from time to time. I promise to keep you updated in the future though, unless something drastic happens to me and I don't have the chance.

Again, sorry about the lack of updates. I'm still here and everything, just moving slowly. I'll give you another update once I get some more of this programming language deciphered enough to program something for you. If you need anything, just email me if it's personal, or put it up here if you need others to read it too. I'm online a lot, so I should get back to you within a few days if possible.

Again, sorry about making you wait; I'll try and keep you on the level with regards to my situation from now on.

[H2O Turquoise]

You might use the MD sprites?

[Kine]

Nah, that would defeat the purpose of the Mother style. Plus, PMD sprites are far too small and poorly scaled.

[Waudby]

I'm quite a proficient scripter in sphere, need any help?

[Kine]

Sure, we could definately use it, although I think Perpetr8r might have more of an idea with what he needs help with. We're trying to create a test bed, getting all the little silly things to work, so to speak, so that when it comes time to actually get this game going, it's smooth sailing (figuratively speaking). It'd be like a debug room.

On my end, I'm going to try to work with menus, using a new menu format. I'm going to give it a go myself before throwing arms up.

I mean, if you want to jump in somewhere different, that'll be alright too, but I know you've already got a project going. Actually, you both do. Come to think of it, maybe I haven't been appreciative enough...

[Ruphire]

The moment I saw Earthbound I fell in love. Will play when it comes out.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok so I've been doing some sphere tutorials to gain a better understanding of how this things works, however I haven't heard any news on what Waudby is going to be doing. If he gets on board, he'll be a lot more efficient at this than I will, so I'm kind of waiting for some confirmation of who is doing what. It's best if we don't all work on the same thing separately, after all.

[Kine]

Makes sense to me. Well, sense time is precious, it's hard to say whether he's busy or forgot the topic, but I'll cut to the chase and send a PM.

In the meantime, in case you haven't been there yet, the Spheredev.org website has a lot of interesting tutorials that even I might try on some spare-spare time. In a way where it doesn't interfere with production, that is.

[Waudby]

I had some free time today, so I tried to recreate the text system from Mother 3.

I don't however have the correct font so placement may look strange with Sphere's system font.

What do you think? It includes, letter by letter text and the option for the name box to appear or not for use with signs and what not.

Enjoy.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/3123/screenshot2008100616270fi7.png

[Kine]

What's funny is that the font looks close enough as it is. I'm thinking about using the probably now overdone Orange Kid font, which is basically the EB font.

Maybe using this would be "different" (except for sphere users, oh well... can't win them all, right?).

That looks pretty darn close, moreso than I'd've gotten so far. I was going to go with EB's text system, but to be honest that really looks neat. I'd use it. As long as it flows nicely, I have no problems with it, the only thing I'm really particular about is the battles. Do you use videos for reference or did you just try out a *ahem* ROM?

I'll check the menus of both games and see which one is more accessable (M3s is a lot more user friendly but I think it's a bit more crowded, too).




Now, speaking of character stats I mentioned in the PM, there's about 213+ unique enemies, 30 some bosses and then another sub group of optionals, and not all of them have 100% completed information yet. It doesn't take me long to fill this out, I can just transfer information and fill the rest out in a word document, but that said, you may have to wait a couple of days on the stats of all enemies, mainly because they aren't all Pokemon. Not that makes it too much harder, but I mean, when one of the game's enemies is a China Plate of all things...

Oh, I should also type up the completed list of Pokemon attacks used in game, and which of them have animated effects. I'm eventually going to database this all anyway, so it's really no big deal to me.

[Perpetr8r]

Since there's now an experienced coder on board, perhaps I should take a back seat and help out with the little things he doesn't have time for. It would save me a lot of time if I could work off of his code instead of trying to write my own from scratch. Of course, I'll still put in a good amount of work on it, it'll just be more focussed on what we need and less on trying to decipher javascript.

How does that sound to you two?

[Waudby]

Since there's now an experienced coder on board, perhaps I should take a back seat and help out with the little things he doesn't have time for. It would save me a lot of time if I could work off of his code instead of trying to write my own from scratch. Of course, I'll still put in a good amount of work on it, it'll just be more focussed on what we need and less on trying to decipher javascript.

How does that sound to you two?

Well as I said to Kine in a pm, I don't want to be the "lead" scripter/programmer, I'd really prefer to be more of an aid, then a full team member as alot of my time scripting goes on Odyssey and I don't wanna slow things down for you guys.

Instead of me doing the scripting for you, how about you ask me about what you need help with and I can provide aid in that way as well as scripting things you may not know how to do?

[Perpetr8r]

Well as I said to Kine in a pm, I don't want to be the "lead" scripter/programmer, I'd really prefer to be more of an aid, then a full team member as alot of my time scripting goes on Odyssey and I don't wanna slow things down for you guys.

Instead of me doing the scripting for you, how about you ask me about what you need help with and I can provide aid in that way as well as scripting things you may not know how to do?

Ah, well... I guess I'm stuck with that position then (at least for now)! I would really appreciate your help though, since you'd be able to tell me what methods to call to do X or what I need to use to do Y, which I'd otherwise have to search for. It would make things 10x easier for me if I could just bug you about the basics of all the systems I'll be having to implement.

For example, I don't know what method to override when I want to know when a key is held down or released. To elaborate, running in this game requires shift to be held down. I know the in C++ there are methods to tell when a key is pressed down or released, but I have no clue in Javascript. Do you have any ideas?

Since I'm on the topic, I don't know how to force an icon state change (eg from walking to running and back again). I'm sure there's an inbuilt method for this, again I just need to be pointed in the right direction. I'll PM you my email address now too, and you can reply via that if you want.

Does that suit you better?

EDIT: Update for Kine!

Waudby and I had a chat over MSN and so now things are worked out on that end. I'll continue to produce stuff for you to use, and I'm about halfway done with making a stable test bed for you to mess with. I just have to add and test a few more functions. Also, it appears that you need separate sprites for each type of movement. That is to say, walking, running, and idling will all need their own spritesets.

It's a pain, I know, but that's how it seems to work, from what I've been told.

[Kine]

Well that sucks (separate spritesheet thing). =F
Or does it? It've been the same amount of work anyhow... Actually, it's the fact that this'll really increase the amount of spritesheets that's the bad thing (at least two per character).

If I could outsource just the sprite importing to some country where I could pay mere dollars...

[Perpetr8r]

Yeah, I've tried to do it myself, but I can't figure out these sprite sheets. It was getting annoying so I just linked the running sprite to the Raticate sprite. It's the incredible morphing Pikachu!

Heh... at least it works now. I'm going to see if I can tweak the running function so that it only shows the running animation while you are moving. Fingers crossed.

Oh and if you felt like splitting the Pikachu sprite up and sending it to me, I'd be able to make the running fully.

[Kine]

See, to me it doesn't make sense because, using this tutorial as example, you should be able to change sprites within the same set.

http://www.spheredev.org/wiki/Sphere/Guide_to_Sphere

Also, I looked up one about treasure chests and, it looks like to change the chest to look opened, they had the sprite set in the south direction. The code would look like:

if(chest_is_open == false) {
// the chest is open
SetPersonDirection("chest", "south");
chest_is_open = true;
}
else {
// the chest is closed
}

Maybe that's only well and good if the character is stationary.
Eh, well. I suppose I can go and ask for various opinions on the SphereDev forums, and see if it's possible/simple.

Otherwise, we got to have a file naming convention so that all you have to do is change the character's name, and the same code is usable for every character in the game.

[Perpetr8r]

Well let me explain it how I see it, and while I MAY be wrong about this, I'm 90% sure that I have it spot-on. From reading the API, I have been given the following two functions for changing a person's icon without changing the spriteset. They are as follows:

SetPersonDirection(name, direction)
and
SetPersonFrame(name, frame)

Allow me to explain what I have gleaned of their use. The first method will take a person (or object such as that chest) and change the direction that they are facing. The second one will choose which frame of the animation (of their current direction) that they are on. I will be using this one in the test bed to make the characters revert to the standing pose when they stop moving.

However, there is no method to change the default names of the directions. So you can't change your north to be "nrun", for example. It doesn't work that way. In fact, what you've done with the icons you've sent me is basically make a bunch of icons with a LOT of extra directions, directions that we can't access like you would want. If you tried, the best you would get is a temporary change to one of your other "directions" until you moved, in which case it would revert back to what it was before.

In other words, you can only store extra states for your characters when they don't require movement. As soon as movement comes into the equation, you'll need to split the icons up. Annoying, I know, but I really don't want to be coding 1500 lines of code to try and get around the limitation. It's easier just to separate the icons.

Also, I can't really do much more until I get a few more bits and pieces from you. Currently I'm working with my crappy maps and with two sprites, neither of which have running animations (can't figure out how to widen a sprite enough to copy your sprites across to new sprites). Running works well, and I'm fixing up the text thing Waudby gave us so that it suits your intentions better. But that's all I can do. I don't have any maps from you, so I can't go coding doors and stuff, and AI will be a little frustrating to work with, so I'm going to hold off on that until you are well into working on your own stuff with my code.

Yeah so the ball is kinda in your end of the court for now. Once you've gotten stuff like menus, maps and characters all sorted, I can start paving the way for the actual game development to begin. No rush though, I have plenty to do as is.

[Kine]

Ah, now that's what I thought. I figured it had something to do with "as long as the character doesn't move".

Okay, now that it makes sense, I can live with it. *chuckle*

Alright, well, I'm going to think up a naming system for all spritesets. Because of the amount of characters, and generic names, I'm thinking it would go something like:

character_control_action

where character is the Pokemon (or anything else), control determines whether it's a playable character or extra, NPC, or enemy, and action would be whatever they happen to be doing.

So then it would look like:

pikachu_player_tired

or

pidgey_npc_talk

I haven't given you the tired sprites for Pikachu, or a lot of them, actually.
So does that look like it could work? It seems like it would because as long as we could do a control + f in the code for the last two lines, we could easily change "pidgey" to "rattata" or even "childpidgey" (or chpidgey or something).

Cutscenes are tricky. I'm thinking I'm going to label the action on those as "cutscene[#]", the # meaning whichever set it might be. So it could be cutscene set 2 or 5 (I doubt one character will ever have that many). Considering you shouldn't be able to move during those, having the animation play wouldn't be bad. However, it's possible there may have to be forced movement. I would think you could code an event where you could make a character move w/o the player's control, though. I mean, that just has to be some kind of given.

I can definately see where breaking cutscene animations into directions helps, so in a way, this new method might make things less cramped (or rather, not the full action in one line).

Alright, this all sounds good now, so I shall get on top of it.

Just one other thing, could you explain what you mean by widening sprites? I may know what you're talking about, but the way in which you put it I can't understand.


Edit: Oh, one more thing. I'm going to see if I can animate objects on the map before I pass it along. I want to get a river flowing, but to test I'll probably make flowers "dance" or something pointless like that. Whatever it is it won't be in the final.

[Perpetr8r]

Eh, don't worry about the widening sprites thing. Just after I said that, I read that tutorial you linked and it explained everything. Even so though, I'd have to pretty much redo the sprites to make the running animation so I think I'll just wait for you to do it. As is, Pikachu morphs into a Raticate (which, being a rat also, looks very similar in a way) when you run, and there IS one issue that I have come across that you aren't going to like. I'm going to contact Waudby about it though, to see if it can be solved before I go crisis mode on you. (It's not a HUGE deal anyway, just one of those niggly aesthetic issues...)

Anyway, as far as the sprite things go, there are a lot of things we can do to prevent having to code in each and every sprite for every single character. If you use that naming scheme we should be able to implement a variable-based system that will handle most of the sprite transformations. Also, this wasn't part of anything you asked of me, but I designed a very basic saving system with three separate slots. Really, we can have lots of slots if you want, but I just figured 3 was a decent amount. Not that anything gets saved right now...

Now with the cut-scene animations, are these specific animations that only happen once in the whole game? I mean, if that's the case then you're giving yourself one hell of a job but then there won't be a very easy way of handling them. I don't think you can really take shortcuts in that case. However, making cut-scenes will be fairly easy. All of the controls for moving characters and stuff are simple, it's just a matter of timing and order, really.

The up side of all of this commotion is that it looks like we're finally getting this project off of the ground. I've been rapidly getting the hang of Sphere, and since you're making good progress with icons and sprites, we're probably almost ready to begin work for real. I really want to see this project through, so I'm looking forward to getting a good start on this thing. It does however, bring up a few potential problems (which you're most likely already on board with, but I wanted to bring them up anyway).

Two issues come to mind here. The first issue is that once we get started with the real production of this game, we'll need some structure for it. At the moment I'm just playing with coding and you're just making and testing icons, but once we start putting the real thing together, things will get messy fast unless we iron the process out a bit. I have lots of suggestions for this area, but I'll hold off from posting them here (see my second issue for the why). You probably already know this anyway, so I won't go into huge detail. The point is, it will be harder to make progress unless we have a good, solid foundation to work on.

The second issue is that I just realized that most of the posts on this forum topic are from you and me posting messages back and forth about development details that most people aren't going to be interested in. Rather than spam up this forum area (which is for the game progress and recruiting new helpers), I'm going to try and keep my contact with you in email form, especially since once we start I'll have to talk about the actual game and I don't want to ruin the surprise for anyone. These forums have been a lot easier for me to use, but it's getting crowded now and the crowding will only increase as the project takes off, which is a good reason to switch over.

Long post short, keep me updated about what you want, and I'll settle the small details with you over email from now on (if that's ok).

[BillNye]

This is really good! keep it up, i kno it will be a success!!!

[Kine]

Aight, then in that case I'll be using the forum to respond to other things, if other things come up, or for updates, which usually happens 4 times a year, moreso if something actually occurs.

I'm gonna probably ask Waudby for his email address so I can just send documents there instead of a PM.

Don't respond to this here, Perp, but since I'm already posting here I'll close up some of the points made.

Three slots seems good enough. I mean, when a game has, say, 15, who really uses all of them? Except to copy a file over, and use them as "save states" per se. Plus, it's better than Mother 3 which only has 2, which is still better than Pokemon games that only have one. =\

And yes, there are a lot of unrepeated sprites that only happen in certain areas of the game. They aren't all big, they might just be an alternate talking sprite, but as far as I can tell, it's actually quite interesting to see the level of small details that go into a game that's style is otherwise really simplistic. Little funny actions that really add an effect to something.

I was well aware I'd have my work cut out for me on that, but come on, I think everyone knew that. The fact that all sprites are built ground up instead taking the PMD shortcut, and even then making tens of variations for just one species, yeah, I knew what I was doing. Granted I didn't know importing was going to be a such-and-such but I knew it wouldn't be easy. But I'll do it anyway, because that's the presentation I want! =)

Besides, if nothing else, it's an incentive to actually do stuff in the game than just go straight forward. And possibly to play it more than only once. Repeating old stuff takes away uniqueness. Just ask anyone who's played Mother 3 about the "Wes Dance". It only happens once (in full) and pretty early in the game, and yet it's so intricately animated. =D


Beyond that, frankly I wouldn't want to build the game UNLESS we had a solid foundation. Hence the reason why I don't even want to put the game together until every possible thing this game can do has been figured out, and that includes flags and branching. That way, it's pretty much cut and paste from there (it'll still need testing and will have bugs I'm sure, but ideally it won't be as hard as going into it blind).


Finally, I think I may have found a way to get some extra help, but it'll cost money. In fact, it could possibly really speed things along but it'll cost a lot of money, I'm sure. Well, I'll worry about that later. But granted, I'm sure everyone knows just by things I've said here or on my website before that I'm not above throwing around money where necessary.


Seven pages? Holy geez, Batman!

[Perpetr8r]

Just an interesting side note that's unrelated to the programming of the game:
I decided to play Earthbound to get an idea of what PISE is going to be like. Hopefully though, PISE will be a little more exciting to play than Earthbound...

I'm only about 3/5 of the way through right now, but I basically get the gist of what you were talking about in terms of the one-time animations, the battle system, and various other game mechanics. I'm even more curious now to see how your game is going to reflect these things.

[Kine]

Although battles will probably be the same*, everything else should be more like the next game.

It's a good thing, though, once you play it, you'll pretty much know everything about whatever I would like. Sort of. It's that or I have to point out YouTube videos. One time animations are moreso in the next game. In EB, there aren't many, except Ness sleeping, and the animations seen in the name your characters part. Of course, this in part is what made the first PI easier.

I think the Mother 3 Fan Translation is near complete, I just saw a note for it on starmen.net. That game is a lot more interesting in all aspects, except maybe it's not AS silly just to be silly.

*Unless somebody REALLY wants to code in a combo to the beat system Mother 3 has, and I don't think anyone does. @_@

MEGA EDIT: The fan translation IS out! Hey you lurkers, since you aren't helping anyway, go download the patch for the M3 translation!

[Perpetr8r]

Wow... I have pretty good timing. I've almost finished Earthbound (while still coding my AI project may I add), and now this comes out. Also, while the gameplay of Earthbound used a lot of tricks that I find very annoying to have to play through, they had several real gems in there too. Stuff like the teleportation system is very clever and makes the game more fun and interesting, as well as several of the plot developments and dungeons (*cough * Moonside *cough*). Phone system was pretty cool too.

I hope PISE will incorporate elements similar to this in its gameplay, though naturally there may be a few compatibility issues between the games. Do Pokemon even have phones? Regardless, if this is done right, I think you have a very interesting and playable game on your hands. Just PLEASE avoid making dungeons where players have to repetitively run back and forth through hordes of enemies just to hit switches or whatever that open another area on the other side of the dungeon... Granted, it makes dungeon making easier, but it's annoying as heck to play through.

Anyway, I have about 3 more dungeons to crawl through until I've completed Earthbound. I'm cheating and using a walkthrough, but I don't have time to actually try and figure everything out myself. That game clocks up 80+ hours of gameplay easily, if you play it normally, and even with the walkthrough and my magic "move faster" button, it's still taken me more than 10 hours to get to this point.

On a side note, I have a weird translation version. "PSI Rockin" is known as "PSI Friend" in my version, for example, and Porky is called Pokey? Eh, whatever. Also, I couldn't help but mess with the names for a laugh. I got some great results too, which I saved in picture format because I have no life (I thought it would be funny to have a little scrapbook of the funny bits of my game's progress at the end).

Here's a few samples just in case you have an immature sense of humor like myself. Since I was playing this game 'cause of you, I couldn't help but include your name, and it worked so well!
Hehe... "You will save the world! Let me go call MOMMY!"

Anyway, now I can go read all those Earthbound comics you made and they'll make sense to me. In fact, I might go do that now...

[Kine]

Porky was always Pokey in EB. It's the name most of us are accustomed to, although in the end it just turned out to be a minor translation error. Much like Giegue in EB0 going to Giygas, despite the fact that Giegue sounds closer to the Japanese Geeg/Gyiyg. I dunno where Giygas came from. They should've been consistant... (although if you remove the "as"... er, well anywho)

Do Pokemon have phones? They do here! But, eh, they aren't used to save the game. There is no dad or some figure to call. It's either to store things or otherwise just for amusement text, I think. I'll have to recheck that. Oh, and you can call for hints on where to go, since again I don't plan on having everything spelled out for you in this game (and having a fortune teller type (or a hint man, hah) in one area is an inconvience as large as this island is). You're given a cell phone item, so you don't have to find a phone, but that's later in the game.

Saving's done at inns (or other rest areas), much like I'm sure some other games are, so that answers that.

What dungeons are like that in EB? The last time I played that game had to be several years, so I can't remember how everything was exactly. And yet I DO remember a lot of rock pushing to cover switches in Pokemon games (and the Cinnabar mansion). Which I suppose is more annoying considering random battles. At least you can see them in EB. I can't tell you there won't be any, but I can assure you there probably won't be many. Because as far as switch pushing goes, I kind of think that's how it would go in a ruined temple or some such. Tangela's Hedge has dungeons like that, but they're mostly harmless puzzles for fun and prizes, much like that one guy's fun house in Ruby/Sapphire. So it's not even an obligation, but rare items in this game are definately that, possibly unique, so it would be a good idea to get stuff where you can.

Oh yeah, now that I remember it, if there was one thing I liked about EB, it's that it had a good length. Granted back then I could play things that long, these days, unless it's portable, I can't really find the time. It's ironic then that I'm making this game larger than EB is. But I have a laptop so I don't care. That's still portable in my book. The goal in mapping the old PI was to have an expanded EB, so to speak, covering more areas with different tricks than this game did, but making sure I had some rhyme or reason for doing so.

"that genius Kine...", heh, I love it. Not speaking for myself, I'm no genius, but speaking for the portrayal of the character Kine, I can imagine him being smug about that. I also like the caught the scent of girls one, it didn't take me long to figure out what that was in the place for. And to think your mother encourages that in game... Whoa, but the use of strawberry always makes it look like someone's dead. I wanna have custom colors, too, but it's not a necessity. If anything I always choose plain anyway, it's more for everyone else who cares.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok actually, I shouldn't have said dungeon. Really, the dungeons in Earthbound are more about fighting your way through a horde of enemies, or making you navigate a maze full of enemies (I'm seeing a trend here), which can be annoying in their own right, but then again that's what dungeons are for. More annoying are the non-dungeon places where in order to advance the storyline, you have to explore the entire town, talk to one guy, then explore the entire town again to find out what changed, then explore the entire town a third time just because the game likes watching you cry.

That happened in pretty much every town or main area in the game. A really good example is in the Dusty Dunes Desert, where you have to run all over the same 12 rooms like 30 times, shipping items back and forth between very demanding monkeys, all to get to visit Talah Rama or whatever his name is. Don't get me wrong - solving puzzles can be a rewarding experience, but Earthbound didn't even point you in the right direction half the time, and when it did, it usually meant trekking to the opposite end of the town or area just to chat with someone before running all the way back. Exploring is fun - the first time. Basically my point is that puzzles should be just that - puzzles. Anything that requires huge amounts of time to beat, with little skill involved, tends to get boring and annoying very fast.

Anyway, it's not that big a deal. We're not even up to that stuff yet, and if I tell you to make complex puzzles then I'm going to get stuck coding them, so I need to watch my mouth... As for Earthbound's length, I agree. Games that actually progress a lot are more interesting, because then you look back on it and go "Whoa, I've come a long way!". RPGs that try and cram gameplay down people's throats and are over in a few hours tend to feel rushed and less interesting than those that focus on actually building on the characters that you control. Granted, sometimes I want to get on with killing the badguys as opposed to listening to characters expound on their personal flaws, but there's enough room in an RPG for some non-storyline stuff, don't you agree?

I have to say though, if you're thinking of making your game bigger than Earthbound, it's going to take FOREVER. I mean, it's two people at the moment, and Earthbound had a full development team working on it and it still took them... uh actually I don't know how long it took them, but I'd say at least a year. Not that it worries me, just gotta be realistic here. Big games take time, especially if you have to draw ALL the graphics yourself (or code the entire thing from scratch). I've been working on my mini Pokemon MMO for like 4 years now and it's still not finished, though I attribute that partially to laziness on my part, and partially to the fact that nobody wants to help.

Anyway, custom colors should be a breeze to implement (at least, once I work out the Javascript commands for 'em). It took me a moment to figure out what you were saying about strawberry until I remembered the flavor thing right at the start of the game. Speaking of that, one of the things I really like about Earthbound is the fact that it doesn't take itself too seriously (except at the epic boss battles or major plot points). Non-essential characters move in and out of character on a whim, enemies range from ridiculously dangerous to downright laughable with no apparent trend to it, and the game continually introduces random new mini quests that you have to go on to move the storyline along which keeps things interesting. Happy Happy village is a great example of that (blue, blue!).

On top of this, I just finished Earthbound a few hours ago and I have to say, they did a really good job with the final boss battle. Granted, the way Pokey taunted me made me NOT want to do what he was telling me to, but I thought the mood was great, albeit epilepsy-inducing. I got a few more pics for my little scrapbook of amusing scenarios too. I'll upload one more, since it's relevant to the comment you made about your mother encouraging you.

I thought you'd like the Kine one. It fit so perfectly to the character you have that I couldn't resist snapshotting it. Plus, it was a lot more flattering than later on when Dr. Andonuts brings up "Kine"'s bed-wetting habits. I have that one too, though now I've ruined the surprise by telling you about it.

Lastly, I downloaded Mother 3, but I'm scared to play it. If it's anywhere near as big as Earthbound, it's going to eat all my time as I can imagine it eating yours as we speak. This time I'll use their real names though... I think I'm all out of corny name jokes for the time being. I will add though that Prince Poo probably prefers the name I gave him...

I still have to work on my AI project, which is going decently, despite hitting several very annoying snags. Hopefully I'll be able to put all of that behind me soon and get my free time back for doing the fun stuff!

Oh yeah. When we finally put the finishing touches on your game, we should totally take this pic's suggestion!

[Kine]

Oh Lord, the monkey cave. See, THAT'S how one can tell I haven't played this game in forever. I forgot all about that dread. Oh heck no, that was never in the plan. But to me, it seems like most of EB's dungeons are less maze and more "fight mean arse enemies!", like the Pyramid which is laughably straight forward but hard as heck. That's probably what you mean.

Eh, there's a bit of everything in PI. The repeating maze where if you don't pick the right path, you just go in circles (although it's still easy for reasons I won't say here), the long winding maze where it's just easy to get lost (it's one of the final areas, and because of the name of the area afterwards it just makes sense), maybe a few slaughter fests that EB has in rather straight forward dungeons (usually when it technically makes no sense to develop a maze, much like the Dept. Store dungeon and its mean coffee cups), and some where it's mostly just up to how you navigate through it (which is why we need to figure out ice tiles and shifting strong wind attributes).

Mother 3 is nowhere near as long, it can be beaten in about 30 hours average. Of course, it's not like any of us can read what was being said, even with a guide, which only covered the main spoken points, and a bit of NPC dialogue. Now it might take longer with extra exploration, but that's still optional. In some regards, I think it was a slight disappointment to fans that the game wasn't as long (nor did you have to be nearly as high leveled), but what's there is good enough.

When you play Mother 3, you tell me which one has a better interface, and we'll just go with that. Again, I don't care. It's display vs. simplicity, really.

What I can tell you is the instances of talking to an individual to force things along does happen in this game. It's in that case I'll have to be more direct. When it's so unclear that you don't know what to do without a guide (like going back to Threed to find out they fixed the Sky Runner), that's what I'm avoiding. I don't wanna tell people what order things should be done, but I'm not going to be vague and hand them a controller saying "here, play this". Itoi is a writer, so the Mother games are more like an interactive story, as opposed to just a game. Same can be said here, so that's why I'd LIKE for people to speak with some individuals. The non-linearity comes to play when it comes to "doing stuff for some cause". I think even Mother three forces this, but fortunately came the introduction of cutscene and one time animations, which make speaking to individuals more interesting just to see what they'll do next.

One thing you'd notice, is that each Mother game has a concert that you have to see. Mother 3's is obviously the most interesting, and it's a good thing I'm doing the art work in that regard, because that much is also true about this game. Except you're only forced to see one of them, not like 4 or something. Even then, all the shows I have planned even optionally should be fun if you like watching stuff. It'd be like an animation I'd normally do, but inside a game, a lot of the flowing animation work will probably be in those (hence the large amount of cutscene sprites I keep mentioning). However, I can't even START these without a musician. The animations need to go along to music, so it'd suck if no musicians came along and the only thing holding us back is the theatrical pieces.

But again, it's mostly story oriented. It has to be. I couldn't make sequels otherwise, so not everything is closed ended by the end of the game, either. Well, more on the individual basis. The game's self contained story is, though. Each of the three series' self contained main themes are wrapped up at the end of the its series, but character development continues up until the trilogy's finale, as well as little nuances that don't get fully explained until then. Thankfully, the last two parts are just comics. Actually, I couldn't even make Poke Tales into a game, that or it'd be like a 10 minute game (just following the main story). Conversely, it would be an 1000 hour game (following all individual stories).

I do know, though, that the game just can't be flashy. The game parts have to be good too, which I'm hoping I have just the right balance of (which we can always check later). Nonetheless, everyone should go in with the mindset of it being more about the characters and situation, less about just being a video game.

*PS: Character development and getting to know Pokemon is a big theme! Mainly because that's the only way to fill up the picture book (or whatever I called it), this game's Pokedex. It's not required to beat the game and some of them are added automatically through normal means, but completionists would probably enjoy the thoughts of 157 Pokemon.

[Perpetr8r]

Well clearly you already have a well-defined idea of how things are going to go, which is good. I mainly bring this stuff up because I know you are remaking a game you made previously and so you could change things you didn't like if you wanted.

In terms of interface, Mother 3 has a much more intuitive interface (in my opinion), though the battle system could do without faces popping up. I think window flashing works fine. Also, the beat system is just confusing and kind of pointless, really. After two hits you do bugger all damage so it's not really worth the combos, despite the fact that they are kind of fun to pull off and you get applause for 16 hits. So yeah. I'd say combine Earthbound (Mother 2?)'s mechanics with Mother 3's interface, minus the faces.

I've only played the first few hours of Mother 3 so far though, and I have to say that it's nothing like what I was expecting. Earthbound was nowhere near that serious and it really threw me for a loop when all that stuff happened right at the beginning. I have a sneaking suspicion about how everything is going to end, given the way Earthbound ended, but I'll keep that to myself for now. I'm not going to have any more time to play it for a while, because if I do play it I'll get distracted too much to do my real work which is due in just 5 days now.

I'm glad I didn't make the names silly, though now I do regret not setting my favorite food to "babies". That would really have lightened the mood... Also, Lucas and Claus are anagrams of each other. It took me about 3 hours to realize that.
And if I ever play through the game again, I'm naming the mother "Aeris".

[Lucar10]

So is poke island an RPG or what other than it sounds good

[Kine]

Nyeh heheh, so I see that you're experienced the different feel of the third game (by which I mean the mood). Oh yeah, it'll do that. But it gets lighthearted later...

It's kind of genius the way Itoi intentionally hits you at the beginning. I was quite enlightened by his methodology after reading the long interview the just posted up (which is only recommended to those who fully complete the game, spoilers and all). Of course, I think some magic is taken out of it when you really understand why he does things, but hey, it's like with everything, once you get solid information, the fun of speculation goes away.

Anyway, looks like we finally have something to go off of as far as interface goes. Now that you know what both look like, you've pretty much answered any questions about how it should look and feel in this game.

But yeah, I have the entire game's event sequence and everything planned out, it's the same as it was before, so it's not hard. I say where the changes will be made, beyond making a professional version of the same, may be in the layout of things, and possibly new dungeon layouts to accomodate the new stylistic direction. I'll tell you this, to cut corners, I pretty much made everything a cave back then. Some places will actually look more like they should, now, which will introduce some things I didn't consider back then. Also, important dialogue should have better diction, but that comes with getting older and better at writing. I'm sure NPC dialogue will be all over from new to old, as it's mostly throwaway lines.



Lucar10 - Poke Island is an RPG in the way the the Mother/EarthBound series is. It'll have a bit of similarities to EarthBound, even. I make this pretty clear and obvious, because again I was going to make it a PK Hack game to begin with long ago. If you don't mind seeing street punks (in Pokemon form) again then you should be good going into this game. Fortunately the sequencing and approach is different, and there's enough uniqueness to counter the EB similarities.

*laughs* All things considered, I don't think Pokemon fans can complain about seeing some similarities. Even I knew I've been dealt the same hand over and over with the official trainer Pokemon games.

[Perpetr8r]

Oh god, those Pokemon games. So much room for awesome, so little attempts to make it work. But hey, no use crying over spilled milk when you can create your own! ...or something.

Mother 3 spoilers below!
Since we're on the subject of Mother 3, I have some complaints about the game so far.

For starters, it kind of left me confused as to the fate of Claus. Is he dead or what? It shows him lying there, but it never tells you whether he's ok or what (at that point, at least). It's all like "Some families, LIKE FLINT'S, were torn apart." That is not an explanation... Oh yeah, and Flint kind of just goes back to his old life like nothing happened after that little exposition. It doesn't even say what happened to Lucas!

Also, Mother 3 uses even worse time-wasting tactics than Earthbound. I mean... the whole broom thing in the castle? They are just lucky I can save game states on top of the save system, or I would have been very very angry. I mean really, "Caution, brooms". What kind of a warning is that? Maybe half the sign was missing or something and it was supposed to say "Caution, brooms are invincible and will make you squeal like a piggy if you touch them." I was like "Time to beat down some household objects!" and the next thing I know I'm crawling out of a trash can 3 floors down. Hulk smash.

At least there are amusing bits, like that Wess dance you mentioned on the first page of this thread. That almost made all the bs worthwhile. Almost. The game seems to be trying to make me invent stupid names as I go along, too. "Oh hey look, here's Kumatora! Try not to name her something masculine!" and "Now name this monkey!"

I mean really... a monkey. It's half a joke right there! I really hope it doesn't give me any more names to play with because I can feel some bad jokes coming on and I won't be held responsible for what happens...

Hey, I've discovered a neat shortcut for my AI project that may just make everything a LOT easier for me! Of course, it won't be nearly as cool, but at least I'll be able to have it finished in time...

[Kine]

*laughs again* You sound just like everyone else who's only played the three chapters so far. You have to keep in mind, the three Chapters pretty much all happen at the same time, it's just different points of view.

Trust me, the main characters don't just go on as though nothing happens. Also, Chapter 4 up is a lot more reminiscent of EB than the first 3 are. And I gotta tell you, I have no idea what brooms you speak of. I only played the game through once, in Japanese at that. I'll play it again once I can put the fan-trans on a flash cart.

And no, you won't be naming anyone else.

[Perpetr8r]

Whee, more spoilers:
Well the broom bit is in Osohe castle, right after you meet Kumatora. You have Wess and Duster in your team as well, and you head down a long corridor with annoying ghost things in it, and then up a flight of stairs. At the top of the stairs is a sign that says "Warning: Brooms". If you head into the next room, you come across a bunch of animated brooms sweeping the place in large circles, and if you touch one, they teleport you three floors (and about 30 enemies) back, and you have to climb all the way up there all over again.

Anyway, there's a few more things that purposefully waste time in game too (so far). First one is when you have to deliver those boxes as a monkey. It serves basically no purpose aside from wasting 10 minutes of your time, and then they do it again in the factory (in chapter 4) where you have to cart those big clay guys around just to earn entry to the club. Worst thing is, I can't speed the game up anymore so I have to play through it.

But when I really feel like breaking something, I pause, save the game state, take a deep breath, and go watch the Wess dance. Then, everything is better again. (Or alternatively, I watch the monkey version of the dance. Ah, good times.)

Except I was extremely disturbed by the scene in the game where poor Lucas gets molested by a Magypsy or whatever they are called. I was like "Hey, female clothes lying here and a hot spring up there. This could be good, or it could be a horrific, life scarring incident for both Lucas and myself." Unfortunately, (yet not unexpectedly) it was the latter. It was bad enough walking in on some naked transvestite, but even worse when he held Lucas down and did something creepy to him to unlock his PSI abilities?!

He's all like "Ooh you caught me naked. *screen goes black* Now hold still and stop struggling! Just a little bit longer! Oh yes!"

Wow... is this game supposed to be a kids game or what?


And that's how Lucas became a real man.... or not. In any case, my excuse for posting all this on your thread about PISE is that I'm outlining some of the ways that games waste players' time in order to make the game seem longer than it is. Heck, even I have admittedly been guilty of doing it from time to time. Once, I made a game on my graphics calculator, but as I ran out of memory to program in, I cheated and created really simple mazes that you had to walk through blindly and if you took a wrong turn you were teleported back to the start. I also made it so that there were about 4 mazes, and you had to beat them all several times to actually stand a chance against the big boss.

It was cheap, but it turned a 30 minute game into a 2 hour game. I still have that game, too. I mean, who do you know that has games programmed on their calculator? Someday it'll be worth a million dollars or something.

Long story short, it's not always a sin to make players work for the next piece of the storyline. But when you're resorting to cheap tricks every step of the way, you know there's something wrong. I always prefer short games that are fun the whole time to long games that are filled with tedious mazes and repetitive puzzles.

[Kine]

Er...
Honestly I have no idea what's going on in that scene. When I played it I thought nothing of it, but the way the translation seems to word it. What I do know is that it's purposely ambiguous, or it was supposed to be. It was meant for the player to fill in whatever s/he wanted, so if you naturally have a tendency to think that way, well, there you go I guess. If not, it's all good. I personally think it's quite odd even for a Mother game, though. Even moreso on a sad kid like Lucas.

The happy Boxes part is admittingly pointless, but storywise I can see where it makes sense. Fassad is a jerk who takes pleasure in abusing animals, apparently, so no matter what you do it's always wrong. That and of course those boxes had to be delivered. Granted, that could've been done via a cutscene and not the player's experience, but I guess Fassad's jerkiness would'nt be as evident since YOU had to do all that hard work. That's my take on it, I can't say that's the reason why.

The factory thing is pointless too just because those claymen are so darn slow. It's actually optional to work some more after the fact, for some pay. But I dunno how much they pay you or how many clay guys you gotta repair. But since that's optional, it doesn't make a difference. I will admit, though, it's nice to be able to play Chapter 4 because there doesn't seem to be any real threats, yet. You're just taking in the revised world. It's one of my favorites because it's pretty easy going, and the game's real plot doesn't begin yet.

PS: What did you do when the train came speeding down the tracks?

I really need to get that flash cart so I can play this again. =E Darn it all. Maybe I can wait some more for a possible updated version, whatever, I mean I already know how it ends.

Oh, and pay attention to that Battle Log. That's now how the album would look. Except that it's a friends list and not enemies list, so you don't have the option to practice beating on them (that would be mean).

off the top of my head, I do know there's some revisiting areas to open up new areas much later in PI, but I don't think it ever occurs all at once. There is a part where you pretty much cover the same ground twice almost in succession, though. I'm probably going to leave that alone, something like that is hard to reaccount for, considering what happens, and I don't like rewriting anything established. Besides, the second time around is for free exploration just to take in the situation, and it's much easier considering you're only one person at that point.

Other than that, I can't think of any time wasters per se in terms of advancing the game, but I do know there's a couple of request chains from NPCs to get items or records for the album. That's optional, though. Like one character wants you to do something for them from another NPC, but that other NPC wants something from ANOTHER NPC before they'll do the favor for the first, etc. Fortunately, it's mostly just talking to a person, fighting them, or giving them something arbitrary, but I'm not going to make them all that easy. If you want that full log, hah, you better get to it.

They're only side quests. Plus, I want people to take time with this game, I mean, unless you're in a rush to go back to human trainers land (which in terms of story I'm sure some characters are). Screw that, I'm on vacation! Which is also the attitude some other Pokemon have.

[Perpetr8r]

You bring up some valid points with the game. Personally, I'm being hard on it because Earthbound raised my expectations quite a bit. Had I not played it, I doubt I would be as critical of Mother 3 as I currently am. I'm still reserving judgment on it though until I've played through the whole game. I have to admit that they really make you work to get past each stage... it's an extremely finely-tuned difficulty curve. I also can't do the magic butterfly trick this time around :(

I still feel that Mother 3 is very much a serious adventure, as opposed to Earthbound. Whilst the nature of the enemies you face is still quite kooky and strange, the enemies themselves tend to pose a larger threat in general (there's a lot less enemies that randomly beat themselves up or whatever), and the bosses are hugely more dangerous. I always find myself using nearly every single item at my disposal just to barely scrape past beating the bosses of each level, even though I take time to go and train on the minor enemies at every chance I get. More importantly though, the mood of the story is still really depressing. Earthbound was almost a whimsical adventure, because despite the looming danger, everywhere you went was something new and exciting and the characters you met there were bright and amusing.

In Mother 3, it seems like each area I visit is more depressing than the last. Ruined castles, "progressed" towns, a factory, a giant tower with a sinister design... The characters themselves are more serious, and the issues that they deal with almost constantly are pretty heavy stuff. I suppose that's what Earthbound would have been if you'd killed Ness' mother right at the start, really... Granted, there's the occasional funny or lighthearted bit, but I still don't think it's as upbeat as its predecessor.

That said, the stupid game is addictive. It's hard to focus on my work and not touch the thing, because when I do play it I get really involved and then 5 hours later I'm like "Ah crud, I gotta get back to work!" However, I 'm pretty sure that how addictive it is and how depressing it is are separate. The gameplay is just fun and the dungeons aren't too complex (so far), so you don't get bored and angry every time you're forced to go hunt for something.

Long story short, I don't really approve of the drama and tragedy going on all the time in Mother 3. Some might, but I like my fantasy games to be happy. Hopefully PISE will be a lighter tale too.

Also, I was expecting a train, BUT THERE WASN'T ONE. I don't know what I did that you didn't (or vice versa), but nothing happened. Maybe it was because I stayed off the tracks as much as possible. I kind of wanted to see what would happen if I'd been hit by the train, but nothing ever came zooming past so yeah...

Yeah and the hot springs scene doesn't openly suggest bad things happening to Lucas, but it goes out of its way to make lots and lots of innuendos. I mean, coupling the fact that the Magypsy is a parody of a transvestite (and possibly a gay guy), and that he's already naked (as is Lucas since he got into the spring too) with the fact that when the screen comes back on you see Lucas pop up from under water facing away from the guy... Yeah it just kind of creeped me out. I guess it must be funny to the Japanese.

Oh yeah, and I totally called Claus being on the bad guys' side. I don't know WHY yet, but it just seemed so obvious right from the start. A whole Cain/Abel type thing, you know?

So why do you need a flash cart? Is it because of the beat system? Even with a normal emulator, I can still get 16 hit combos every now and then, and it doesn't make TOO much of a difference ultimately anyway. Granted, there's the occasional slowdown or speed up while shopping, but it works pretty well. Plus, you can skip over the slow bits if you want!

Oh, and pay attention to that Battle Log. That's now how the album would look. Except that it's a friends list and not enemies list, so you don't have the option to practice beating on them (that would be mean).

Actually, I think that would be hillarious. I don't know why, but the thought of practicing beating on your friends whenever you feel like it seems like an extremely amusing concept. But only if they had wacky, over-the-top reactions to everything you did. Come to think of it, I've never used the battle log, so I should go check it out when I next feel like having 5 hours sucked away by this game.

Lastly, don't let me discourage you from your game ideas. While I'm making a loud complaint about Mother 3 slacking off, I really don't think you seem like the type who prefers to cut corners. Even if you have some of the time wastey stuff in the game, I feel pretty confident that your game won't rely heavily on it, so it's not an issue at all. I just wanted to bring it up, because I want to see your game turn out to be the masterpiece it's set up to become.

[Kine]

Well, Mother 3 was meant to be a serious approach, for some reason. It would seem like the oddball of the series, but actually EarthBound/Mother 2 is the black sheep. Mother's story is somewhere in between the two. Nothing tragic happens, but it's major storyline, and the events that happen along the way that you hear of from townsfolk or NPCs and such, well that can be a bit sad. Especially Maria's story. I think Mother 2 magnifyed Mother's lightheartedness to make is the wacky family member, and Mother 3 magnifyed the serious part to make it the darker sibling.

Personally, I'd say PI is probably between Mother and Mother 2*, where a lot of it is sort of just silly and the main character does things because he's told to, not necessarily because he wants to or has to. I mean, Ninten's adventure is really "I'm just going to go outside today on a whim and save the world", although it's more of a sequence of strange events one after another that lead him up to that conclusion. Ness was told beforehand, but he never questioned it. Lucas is probably more like Ninten.

However, any kind of seriousness in PI comes in as you get closer to the end, where things like doubt, guilt and mistakes tend to come into play. Circumstances will eventually reduce the morale of pretty much everybody. I would say the final battle is about as dark as the game is going to get, as far as character emotions and feelings.

As I've said on my site, one of the reasons things occur is mistakes and bad assumptions, despite good intentions.

Finally, as far as both M3 and PI go, I liked how Mother 3 wasn't the bash fest that EB was, where you could go in and bash everything to death. You actually had to use PSI that ups offense/lowers defense, etc. I'd like the same for this game, as well. Enemies that really make you think about what you're going to do.

Now, just some extra M3 notes, if you stayed on the tracks, the train would come at you, and then the game would enter some kind of bullet time, where you could have Lucas either jump out of the way, or stand there and get hit. It's funny because the first time I didn't know you could jump out the way, so as the train was coming at me slowly, I just stood there and got smacked. Funny enough, you don't die, but you end up outside on the ground, and "Mr. T" scolds you or something.

Also, I had a feeling about Claus being bad at some point (not before the game was announced, as the 64 version's media would make you think he was a party member). But I didn't see anything regarding the why and how coming, though.

Also, yeah the flash cart is for beat battles, but also for portability, and the want of putting it into my GBA player on my Gamecube so I can play it with awesome surround settings and a nice sized television.


Also, check your email for Pika spritesets.

*Actually, come to think of it, PI is all three games at once. Well, PISE is. No, wait, even PI. The original game's based on EB, but also takes approaches from Mother, and includes references, some enemies and situations from both games. It was like M3 because of the newer areas, as well as the sort of self doubting parts that also seems to happen in M3. PISE is now like M3 in terms of looks and style, but there's nothing added beyond that point (which also means no cameos of M3 enemies, especially because they couldn't exist yet).

[Perpetr8r]

So. Mother 3. Finished.

What the f***?

The ending to Mother 3 was about as anticlimactic as it could possibly be. When Lucas pulls that needle and the entire continent gets obliterated, THAT'S IT. I mean, sure, you get a black screen where everyone claims that they are alright, but it doesn't actually show you anything and I consider that a major cop out.

What happened, did Itoi get dumped by his girlfriend just before he wrote the ending or something? I bet he did. That would explain SO much. In fact, the text ending after that probably isn't even real. It seems almost like someone who was NOT Itoi snuck in one night and added their own ending, because the real one was so retarded. Heck, they went to all the trouble of animating everything being destroyed, but they couldn't even re-use sprites to show everyone was ok? Come on, really.

I'm quite happy for them to keep things the way they are actually. Just change that little text bit at the end. This is what it should read:

Narrator: It was at the moment Lucas reached to pull out the last needle that the cheerful tune on the great God Itoi's cellphone sprung into it's bright chorus. Time froze for Nowhere Island and Itoi reached for the phone.

It was his wife-to-be, Rachel (yeah I just made up a name, roll with it). "I'm sorry, Itoi, I can't do this anymore." she said. "I'm moving to Tahiti with your best friend." That was it. Then she hung up.

A pall of silence hung over the production area as Itoi stared at the phone, dumbfounded. Suddenly, the struggles of Lucas and his friends seemed pointless and silly. They knew nothing compared to his pain!

Other gods in the office attempted to calm the Great God Itoi as he flew into a rage, brandishing his keyboard as though he were Flint the Second. Grinning like a madman, he swung it wildly, bludgeoning most of the other gods into unconsciousness before turning back to the game - his creation.

"You who have fought so hard for good... you know nothing!" he shouted at the still-frozen characters on the screen. "You mock me with your success and happiness! I shall backhand you all so hard that your ancestors will bleed!"

And with that, the Great and Terrible God Itoi mustered all the newfound evil in his heart, and pulled the pin himself. Time returned to normal as he did so, and so Lucas and the group were entirely unaware that they had failed their mission to bring good to the dragon's heart.

Thus began the apocalypse. <insert player's name here> watched in helpless horror, but even that person's great power could not stop the wrath of Itoi. The Great God Itoi had given birth to this world, and now he would destroy it.

...


.....


........


Somewhere off deep in space, Pokey floated and laughed. His capsule was indeed, 100% perfectly safe.

THE END

THAT would have made more sense than what I got. In fact, I'm half serious when I say that the text at the end doesn't seem like it's part of the official storyline at all. I half think Itoi just wanted to play with everyone's emotions like they were his puppets, and only the sneaky actions of an office ninja managed to partially thwart his plans.

I put up with all the random, pointless killing off of characters because I fully expected them to come back at the end. I mean, it was written all over the game from even the very start. If you believe the disembodied white text, I was right. But white text isn't an ending. It's the mindless ramblings of someone who forgot that games have graphics. I say again, what the f***?

Now, I could go off on a huge tirade into what I didn't like about this game as opposed to Earthbound, but I want to try and keep this post about PISE and the terrible, terrible Mother 3 ending as much as I can. Therefore, I'll just say this: Take the gameplay, but keep your own story. Watching this was like watching the ending of Neon Genesis Evangelion. I'm sure there's people out there who will claim that it was a psychological masterpiece and that I just don't get it, but that's not true at all. See, the thing about games and indeed any form of art is that being subtle and "deep" doesn't work if you overuse it.

There's a limit to how much you can bluff and pretend you're making a clever story before someone calls bs on you. You know what it's like? The emperor's new clothes. Everyone goes on about how amazing it is, because they don't want others to point out the fact that they can't see anything either. But the truth? There's nothing there. Someone thought they were being clever with an ending that nobody would get, but if nobody gets it, it's not a clever ending, it's a crappy one.

Shortened rant aside, Mother 3 was more or less ruined for me by that ending. It took everything I liked about the game and its predecessor and threw it into a steaming heap of dung. After all the tragedy he'd already put in the game, Itoi couldn't help but heap more on at the end. Then he killed everyone. I mean, come on. It's like a spoiled kid throwing his toys in the fire because they didn't amuse him enough. What's the point of a fantasy anything if everyone just dies? And what's the point of trying to redeem yourself with disembodied enigmatic text? What, you can't just come straight out and show people that they aren't dead?

Maybe he was trying to suggest that heaven exists and that everyone died and went there for a party, but if he was doing that, he failed too. Let's face it, it's kind of hard to imagine that all people in heaven are BLIND and can't walk in a straight line.

Anyway, I'd sulk about Mother 3 if I wasn't working so hard on this AI project so that I'm free and have time to work on PISE. Just... bleh. Way to ruin my expectations, Itoi and anyone else who had a part in that.

[Kine]

Before I start on that, let me put this on top. In the case that you haven't already, I've gotten caterpillars to work. =D Or, at least +1. It's probably not the most effiencient coding as I don't have time to look it over and make sense of it (I have mock ups of art projects that I must construct), but eventually I'll go over it line by line so that I know why it works.

So, with the few Charmander spritesets I've made, he now follows Pikachu around like a mindless drone. I have to find a way to keep directions consistant. Using numbers, I could get him perfectly distanced moving any other direction EXCEPT perfectly east or west, in which Charmander's right up on Pikachu's tail. Then, should I space that, there a huge gap if they move any direction otherwise.

Eh, oh well, I'll figure that out later, too. Now, I have to figure out how to get them to JOIN (and also disband). Right now it just starts off this way.

You might also be interested in this site:
http://sphere.sourceforge.net/flik/docs/index.html

It has a document on making characters move automatically (which goes into detail about random movement) which seems ideal for NPCs. This among others, anyway.

Eventually, I'll give you the complete Charmander spriteset, as well. Be aware, though, this guy has 4 different idle sets (and then some). I told you Charmander would be frightening... fortunately it's just him. Well, Mew would have 2, I think.

As for the rest...
Well, you can see his thought processes, now that you've finished the game, if you go to the page where you downloaded the patch. I'm not going to link directly to it, but if you scroll down on that page, it includes a link to the site walkthru, an interview, among other things. If you have the time (and you do need to clear a moment, it's not a quick interview), read through that to get some insight.

Nevertheless, I admit that I completely agree. Heck, I was probably the same, but probably less upset. It took me awhile to swallow the ending before I could actually believe it happened. I'm on the same boat of also thinking it was a cop out. And we're not the only ones, however, most people would say it's poetic or some such. Ehhhh I dunno about all that. What I think shocked me most of all was that this was the plan all along. Heck, in fact Itoi was actually going to be meaner about it. A lot of people had the idea that possibly, the original N64 incarnarnation would've showed the new world at the end, and that they just couldn't do it here because of space limitations (and believe me, this game IS the product of space limitations and not deadlines, as he and other staffers mentioned there were lots of things they couldn't add or had to remove, especially material that would make you more familiar with Claus, much like the old N64 videos show). However, once fans translated an old spaceworld interview (or something), turns out it was his plan even back then. Of course, he always said that in this game, he wanted to do mean, unpleasant things and sort of betray players this time around. Over the years, apparently he's become a nice guy, as the newest interview would tell you. So the whole final battle and such is different, more heartfelt, and the ending gives you vague closure.

Actually, just do a search on Mother 3 hidden stuff on google, and topics should appear on left out material. Most controversal being this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVnmeTRqhg&feature=related

Which, although there have been clearer versions since this first debuted, this gives you a look at all the sequences in the same video (though it's debatable what order they're really in, if it's even all connected, and at what point in the game this was actually used). Still, stuff like that obviously means Itoi was planning to mess with your head for real at some point.

I dunno why. No one knows why because we don't have a protoype version or even a N64 prototype, which would probably be closest to the original intent. He wrote most of the story during EB's development, so while both versions have the same idea (N64 and GBA final), I'm pretty sure he spent those 11 years retooling and reevaluating his work, probably changing his outlook on things along the way, I'm sure.

But for the record, he's married with children. If anything in that scenario, his wife left him. It's a pretty funny scenario that WOULD make sense, but I highly doubt it. Especially since the Mr. Saturn font is based off of his daughter's handwriting (at the time of Mother 2, she's got to be old enough to write, now). He seems like a family man.

I also like that spoiled kid analogy, because it actually sounds just LIKE Porky. It's not amusing anymore, so destroy it! Didn't they do the same thing in... well, nevermind, I better not say. that's a spoiler of another game.

Well, fortunately M3 only influenced me by graphical style, more or less. But I did find it interesting how many unintentional connections the mother series had to the whole Poke Island thing. Up to Poke Legends being the third and most serious of the three, and even having some connections regarding the near end of things. I would be more specific but I don't like giving stuff away, despite that I wrote it before, because I doubt people remember a lot of the stuff I write (especially sense there's so much of it), and therefore I can get away with it. Heck, that was at a time where no one knew how Mother 3 was gonna go at all. I even think that's when everyone knew it to be a cancelled dead project. So in a way, it frightens and saddens me because now I'll look like the copycat. =E

But if it wasn't for M3, I wouldn't bother remaking this game, and everyone would still be asking me "where's Poke Tales" and such. Even though I've made it clear I'm not going to start people off in the second part of a series, so without a first part, you get nothing. That's another reason I made this. The third and most important is because I really like it! Trust me, it's hard for me to do things if I don't have any will to do it, but it's hard to stop me from doing anything if I absolutely enjoy it. The best quality products of mine come from the things I enjoy most, and that's a big reason why my site and content is very much "my enjoyment first". It sounds selfish put that way, but actually, it's more like "if I don't enjoy what I'm doing, everyone else is going to suffer from a poor product as well". And with the sort of satisfaction I get just from making scenary for this game, you can bet there's gonna be a labor of love in the game. As I even stated, even if I'm the only one who ever plays it, it will still be great, because it'll be a project I enjoyed an put a lot of work into.

It's just unfortunate that sometimes junk that's popular appeals to the masses more than well worked out things that are more obscure (and I'm using personal experience, here), but what are you gonna do? Never stopped me from doing what I love. So far, nothing has (of course, money and the urgency for it has never been thrown into that equation yet).

I guess that turned into a bit of an aside about how I do things, but just to be sure, I do like to do things for others to enjoy, but there has to be some heart in it on my part, otherwise it'll always be a lesser product, if ever made at all.

Anyway, that's... it I guess. Oh, and by the by, the ending to this game will be pretty much the same as EBs with the free exploration, and then some. It won't be a cop out at all. In fact, it'll be more than the all the games (although I suppose 1 and 2's put together would = this game's ending).

[Perpetr8r]

Yeah, I'm still working on my big project, so I haven't touched the coding since about a week ago. Right now, I have the world's worst stomach ache. Incidentally, the first thing I thought of when I woke up with this was all the Japanese jokes where a character is like "I'll take on this huge guy... or I would but I have a stomach ache!" It's even in Mother 3 at some point, but that's only a side bit with a pigmask.

I've always worked only on things that would make me happy, for similar reasons. If you work on something that your heart is not on, it's not going to reach its true potential, and you're far more likely to scrap the project later on down the track. I don't think anyone who's ever made a real game hasn't picked something they always wanted to do and gone from there, either.

Your ending sounds much like the "ending" to Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, where you beat the game, and then you can keep playing forever and add members to your team and do stuff separately etc. Not that that's a bad thing, just that it's a different way of drawing things to a close, ie letting the player pick when they want the thing to end. (I have to add though, after working with my partner for so long, I felt sad when he stopped speaking or acting like he was still a part of the storyline except at very rare moments.)

Now for some other Mother 3 miscellanea:

After I posted my big rant t- why does it taste like I've eaten soap? That's probably not a good thing... Maybe I should go check the bathroom in case I've been sleep-eating all of our body care products. I DID eat a cheese sandwich in my dream last night...

Sorry... random tangent related to stomach ache. Not a spoiler. After I made my rant, I was afraid of being beaten to death by a horde or rabid Mother 3 fans claiming that Itoi himself had spelled out the secret to his weird ending and that I had it all wrong. So I read that interview and was midly surprised to see that if anything, he affirmed what I'd said! Like you said, he was looking to betray the players - in essence, Itoi knew that he had a captive audience and was intent on playing with them and shaking up their emotions. He created a happy world, and then smashed it apart, piece by piece.

I don't think I'm the only person who felt a sense of loss when Tazmily changed from the peaceful wild-west-esque town into a modern suburb which everyone then slowly drifted away from. All of the town's landmarks and history vanished too, until the only thing left that was untouched was Hinawa's grave. It was as though her death was the death of the whole village, and if that was the case, then Flint should have kept going with that stick and maybe he would have managed to knock sense into them before it was too late.

Anyway, for a story as incredibly depressing as Mother 3's was, it was the ending that failed us. Games are like interactive movies, which are in turn like story books with pictures. In essence, a game without a purpose is the same as a story without some kind of moral. Think about every fantasy book you've ever read. All of them had some kind of inbuilt moral about the good guys winning in the end and how the bad things could be overcome by those who were willing to fight. But this game, in essence, started at the ending and then slowly went backwards, pulling itself apart as it did so. It's like if you played Earthbound after taking those mushrooms in Tanetane Forest. That's what the story would be like. (This game is full of screams!)

What I'm saying is, at every point in the story where things got worse, I and probably every fan of Earthbound ever, mentally thought to themselves, "It's ok. The ending will fix everything. That's what it's supposed to do!" Even when we were subjected to painfully depressing images of Wess being forced to live in an old-person's home instead of his once beautiful house, or Lucas crying over his mother's grave, or people slowly drifting away from the lifestyle that had made them happy, we kept that faith. We believed that in the end, Itoi would put it all back together and say "Tadaa! Nothing that is done cannot be undone!"

But he wanted to betray us. He knew that dynamic too well, and he knew what everyone would be thinking at each point in time. Perhaps he was trying to say, "This is not a story about Lucas. This is a story about all of us. Look around you, do you see a happy ending? No. Then there is no happy ending for him either. Maybe if you pay attention to this now, you won't suffer the same fate."

Even if that was his intent, he sacrificed his game for the chance to make that comment - a comment which most people will not get, will not understand, and will not appreciate. Was it worth it? I didn't walk away from Mother 3 feeling like I'd experienced something beautiful. I walked away feeling like I'd been toyed with. The best way to put this is that I felt that we were to Itoi what Salsa was to Fassad. He spent the whole game punishing us for doing what he told us to do, then at the end, when we accomplished something big, he zapped us again and laughed in our faces for expecting anything else.

And unlike for Salsa, nobody came to rescue us from the terrible ending.

So was it really a Mother game? Well... there was no praying, no singing, and no joy and laughter after about the first half hour of the game. So no. This wasn't a Mother game at all - it was a stern lecture about not letting your wife be killed by a mecha Drago unless you wanted your entire town to implode and your one of your sons to turn into a pawn of some fat kid in a giant metal vat, while the other ran around the world performing acupuncture on a huge sleeping dragon in order to destroy the continent.

Itoi couldn't make up his mind about whether he wanted to teach players a serious lesson or whether he wanted a game about ****-erotic encounters in a hot spring, so he tried to do both and thus messed everything up. We all sat there, waiting for the punchline, the grand, amusing finale of the game that wasn't supposed to take itself so seriously... and it never came. If it was a serious commentary about the environment, why did Lucas have to run around underwater whilst making out with middle-aged men? Why did Osohe castle require a very amusing dance to get inside of it, instead of a serious puzzle?? Muoooooohhh...

Who knows? All I know is that the ending to Mother 3 should have been so very different to what it was. *sigh* Oh well, maybe he'll learn from PISE's example.

[Kine]

Nope, not at all. I like my endings closed ended! When I said explore things after it's over, I mean in the EB sense (you can talk to people when it's all over, and then when you're done, you can talk to X to send you to cast and credits/epilogue), not the Pokemon sense. Pokemon's open endedness essentially kills it for me, because the major plot (if you can call it major) has an underwhelming ending, leaving you with a feeling of "now what"? I mean, if you like to continue battling without much purpose, go ahead. In the new generation, at LEAST there's wi-fi, but even that wears thin, eventually.

Any real story has to come to a close. Pokemon is just... circumstances, not really a story. I can see why it'd be more ideal as a MMORPG.

The anime isn't much better. It's like reading a book where the last page tells you to start again at page one.

PMD at least has enough of a story to make the ending a lot more satisfying, considering it has a lot more plot than any trainer game (and yet people still prefer to catch em all). The open endedness there is driven by an after story, which keeps it still interesting instead of dropping you at home, not telling you anything (and if beating Red in G/S wasn't anticlimatic I don't know what is).

I dunno what else to say on the Mother 3 thing, but it's interesting to read your analytical approach on it. It's like given the information, you understand it all, pretty much, but you still make good valid points (as far as I can tell) about why you don't like the situation. Me, personally, I'm neither for or against the ending. I would have liked something different, but it is what it is. At least I've come to live with that, anyway.

I will tell you, though, had you written this at Starmen it's possible you'd be subjected to people telling you you missed something deep, but the way you wrote this last thing out, I'm pretty sure no one would go for the jugular. There's even posts there now about dissatisfaction.

I will admit, I'm more than curious to see how much darker his original approach was. I mean, if this was the "happy" version, who knows what've happened?

Perhaps you would have had to slaughter your brother instead? Which... probably wouldn't've ended well psychologically. And how much worse would it have been during the rest of the game?

[Perpetr8r]

Well, one of the things that made me kind of confused to begin with was how Claus appeared to have some robotic parts whilst wearing that uniform. I was half under the impression that they'd reconstructed HIM, and that, much like the Drago, he was being forced to harm people against his will. (AS opposed to being brainwashed into doing it)

But regardless of that, I think I have a decent idea of what Itoi would have done, had he not had a change of heart in the 11 years or whatever that this thing was in limbo. Here's what I think.

I think he'd originally intended for Lucas to arrive on scene at the final needle too late. Itoi mentions that he couldn't let that happen because then it would probably destroy everything (even himself). That sounds a whole lot like Giygas, doesn't it? It's quite possible that his original intent was to have that happen, and, regardless of what happens to Claus (maybe the dragon would take over his body), you'd then have to fight the evil within the Dark Dragon, in a very Giygas-like situation.

It would make sense though, wouldn't it? The background pulses and writhes like it does in the Giygas fight, and one could imagine that the conflict in intent between Claus' and Lucas' "heart"s could cause the dragon to go insane, thus completing the requirements for a second Giygas figure. Remember, all that Giygas was was a being of immense power, driven mad by his own abilities. Sure, there was some evil thrown in there too, but it was mostly insanity that drove him to do what he did, not evil. This would be almost exactly what situation the dragon would then be in.

Then again, maybe it is merely the physical manifestation of the horror Claus was forced to endure. He went from being a child to being a commander, and he wasn't given a proper chance to grow up. That too, can lead to some pretty extreme emotions, and if those transmitted themselves to the dragon, well you could expect the result would be pretty messed up.

The youtube video shows some interesting imagery. It seems very much like a psychological battle instead of a physical one, doesn't it? Maybe it represents the mind of the Dark Dragon in conflict between the two opposing forces that came into contact with it. Whatever the case, you get the impression that Porky was trying to recreate Giygas for some reason. He knew all about the needles, yet he made Claus pull them, knowing as he did that it would "fill" the dragon with emptiness and that the dragon's main purpose was to destroy everything (and then recreate it all). But because of Claus' emptiness, the dragon would be without a purpose for which to recreate that world.

Thus, the dragon would probably just destroy everything until there was nothing left to destroy. Sound familiar? Of course, Lucas would have to fight that and win somehow, possibly by fighting the very insanity gripping the creature. But once he won, the real dark ending would start.

There would be no fairy tale ending (not like there really was one, but if you count the disembodied text, things did end up happier ultimately). You'd beat the dragon, and it would probably go back to sleep again, meaning everything stayed exactly the way it was. Hinawa would stay dead, Claus would probably be insane or dead by that point, and the entire village of Tazmily wouldn't even exist anymore, since everyone moved out. Pigmasks would still be everywhere, without a leader now and thus even more dangerous, and the land would still be torn up and filled with chimeras and other abominations created during Porky's reign.

Its true that with time things could get better, but the huge loss that everyone had experienced would mean that things would never be the same again. Even if people went back to their old lifestyles, there would be reminders everywhere about the mistakes they made. In a way, even this provides much more closure than the current ending. Think about the tale of the white ship, and how inconsequential it was to the storyline as a whole. You never used the egg of light, despite how central it was to most of the plot, and nothing changed when you discovered the truth about it. The only useful thing you gleaned from that whole experience was the knowledge that Leder could talk.

What I'm saying is that with an ending like that, the villagers of Tazmily would be forced to admit that they were instrumental in their own downfall. Because they chose to forget the past, they repeated the same mistakes that had led them to Tazmily in the first place. Perhaps then, everyone would learn the "lesson" that they were being taught, and rebuild their lives once more, though they would always bear the scars of the past. That would indeed be a much darker ending, but I think it would also make a lot more sense. In that regard, I would have been much more satisfied with it.

As is, it seems that Itoi forgot to make sense in his rush to make a happier ending. He might as well have stuck with the sad one, because regardless of what it actually was, it would have felt more complete than this one.


Anyway, today and tomorrow are my last days of working on this project. I have to finish it, so I'll be working really hard from here on out. With any luck, I won't fail miserably and will actually manage to get this AI working properly, despite how freaking hard it is. Wish me luck.

[Kine]

This is probably fruitless, but I might as well...

Anybody reading this know a good musician who has no resevervations for fan games? I could really use that musician, now, but s/he's gotta be good. I mean, really good. At least good enough to make convincing VG music that sounds just like the source (let's say like remastering).

Musicians are the hardest people to get. It's like they work on a triangle basis. On each side you have Free, Fan Game, and Good. The problem is, for the most part, it seems you can only get two of those at the same time. Example: They're good and would work for free, but won't do fan games, and so on.

Those who do all three must be hard to come by, and I dunno where to look where it's actually invited (so OCRemix and VGMix probably aren't great ideas).

Otherwise...

Perp: How'd you do on the AI project? Hopefully everything worked out ok what with the EB/M3 distraction.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, did I forget to tell you about Aaron Waltz? I wouldn't say he's a friend of mine, but I contacted him about using his music for a fan game once and he let me do it for free. I think he's a nice guy, and he has his own site and stuff (http://www.midishack.net/). I think he'd probably appreciate the exposure, though he may want money if he has to design a whole bunch of songs for you.

I think he makes great music, so it's a definite option if he's willing. But yeah, it's going to be extremely hard finding someone to make good songs for free. I used to play piano in my younger years and I have a program that allows me to create midis. However, I'm reluctant to offer my services for two main reasons: One, I'm already doing something big for this project, and two I'm not THAT good with music. I can make a tune, but I have yet to master multiple instruments in unison. And it takes ages, so that's three reasons!

As for my AI project, it was a hell of a ride. I didn't quite finish everything, unfortunately, though it wasn't really my fault. Friday I got a bad case of food poisoning, Saturday I was unwell for most of the day, and Monday I both had work AND had to hand my project in by 4 PM. Still, it went ok, and I did make my AI pretty impressive, at least for the parts that work. In the end though, I'm a little disappointed that I couldn't manage to get everything together exactly as I wanted. I guess that's life...

In other news, I'm still freaking sick from all that stuff and I have a few commitments coming up that need to be taken care of. I'm looking forward to being well again so I can get on with all the bajillion projects I have going that need attention. Crud, that reminds me, I need to finish some uni work before Wednesday... Oh well, I'll be free eventually.

[Kine]

Haha, you say that as if I'm worried about money. =) Sure, I'm not rich, but if the price is reasonable and the work is spot on, what's a few tens of dollars?

Of course, I'm still talking flat rates, though. I might get gyped on hourly rates, especially if it's something I can do myself.

I wouldn't ask you to do anymore. I wouldn't ask a coder to be any more than that even if they could do other things. That'd be cruel. Or it'd be me. =P I'll overwork myself with little to no regret but I won't do it to anyone else.

Well, as always, I'm glad he included MP3 samples. It's so hard to get a good impression if all that exists are midi files, because sound cards are different, so there's always a different way it's going to play. I like what he has, it does sound like something that could be used in a typical RPG. However, this is a Mother like, where the music's a lot more modern or just weird and cosmic/energetic. I'll send him a mail about all this shortly. I wouldn't force all music on one person anyway. I probably won't even have the entire soundtrack (re)composed. I've listed about 19 necessary songs, and even then I could cut that down to 7 at least (and then 4 if I must get really touchy). Everything else I'll lift from EB/M3/wherever if necessary.

That AI project sounds like a game project I did for class. It didn't turn out the way I wanted, and if there was more time it may have been possible. For what it was worth, it was good. Too bad after class ended my team pretty much cut all ties right then and there. T~T I wouldn't've minded so much if the coder didn't tell me he'd give me the source code for some elements just before the last day. Couldn't even be arsed to respond to my email, which was like immediately after classes ended.

I would've continued on it myself, but there was a lot of lost motivation in the project in that it involved some personal situational stuff with people whom I'd later break it off with (not the classmates), and having the game soiled by those memories... I'd say that would be the only game project aside from a Panel de Pon hack (which at the time was just unreasonable) that I've never completed. Shoot, I can't even think about the characters without wincing a little, now.

ANYWAY...Deadlines push people, but it never seems to allow getting everything you want in. Hopefully you'll recover. And I'm not saying that so you can "get back to work" (which right now I'm not even thinking about, as far as this game goes, my current "flustered focus" is getting musicians), but because I think it's in the best interest to make sure everyone is well regardless of who they are or what they do.

[Perpetr8r]

Well you know, even if you aren't worried about money, it's still your money. I don't want to go around assuming you're going to shell out for bits and pieces. I mean, while I'm personally happy doing it just so I can be like "Yeah I totally worked with that guy..." to make people jealous, I imagine others will want other incentive. Just yeah... it's your money!

Uh so like, I have a few things to catch up on for uni, so I'm still a bit tied up at the moment. But there was something I took from Mother 3 a while back that I never pointed out, and I felt like I might as well bring it up now. It's not exactly a spoiler, since it just shows Lucas hanging out in a cemetery, but I dunno. Use your discretion, people!

[Kine]

Well, again it would have to be a lot for a flat rate, but none the less I got at least two people. Mostly people from Starmen.net, which makes sense, all things considered. I should've started there in the first place.

I must admit I'm kinda disappointed but not at all surprised that EB fans (or those with more knowledge of the series) help me more than Pokemon fans. I guess it's really the gameplay and not the representatives that make the difference. I bet I could've used Mario chars and the results wouldn't be any different.* And what can I say? EarthBound came first, without that, Pokemon either wouldn't exist or would be radically different, considering Red and Green were inspired by AND made by the same team** as EB.


Well, I'm pretty at ease about the whole thing, now. A bit. When I get a couple of those songs in my hands finalized I will be. =E

As for the screenshot, I remember there being a topic on that before. That's pretty weird, but even it that was what it actually said (which I doubt, I dunno how up on American terminology older Japanese guys are), who would write that? Maybe the grave digger, he's kinda iffy.

* And even then, what with all the "fandom segregation"... *once again refers to Pokemon fans observation remade in a Nidorino comic that STILL holds true*.
**not necessarily the same full team, though I gotta imagine what an Itoi written Pokemon game would be like. A lot more to contemplate about than battle for badges, I'm pretty sure, complete with some kind of enemy you couldn't help but feel bad for!

[Perpetr8r]

God, an Itoi-written Pokemon game? Pokemon would probably be able to DIE in the game, so you'd be afraid of battling in case you lose your best friend forever...

Also, darn. I thought I was the first to notice that thing with the tombstone :(

Oh, as a side note, Pokemon tends to be more of a kiddy thing, thus the fans of it are probably too young to offer help, with the exception being a very small minority. EB on the other hand came out a long time ago, so it's bound to have a lot of older fans who are willing and have the skills to help.

[Kine]

Hehe, then I guess we should be glad I didn't aim for a Itoi-based story line back then, and that EarthBound 64 never came out when it was supposed to.

Actually, I'll be honest, if EB64 did come out back then with the way it was supposed to go, I might not have favored the EB series too highly anymore. That betrayal may have been over the top for an impressionable young Patrick (that's me, of course).

Anyway, Waudby, you still with us? I remember giving you a list (which I would have corrected since then) of enemies. And now that it's occured to me, I still don't have a battle system.

There's so much thing I jump from. I go from sprites to props to map stuff to constructing maps to battle sprites. I can't stay consistant. It's pretty hard when you know there's a lot to be done. I seem to have two active other artists, fortunately, one on props and one on characters. That's good but I could surely use 8 more. @_@ 8 more consistant artists, anyway. I think anyone who's made a game with others knows about people coming and going.

Not that I mind doing the art. Heck, the battle sprites I love to do. It's quite a challenge to try to make things look both like Pokemon and EarthBound artistically at the same time, but it's always cool. Scenary I don't mind too much, either.

Well, the point is that I'm always here and there, so if I'm working on something one day, I might not be doing that part in the next few days.

That said, I haven't done much more to the Charmander spriteset. Especially because of a graphical oversight on my part, as well as the fact that I need to make shadowless walking sprites. So Pikachu should actually have another one coming.

IT'S ALWAYS SOMETHING. X_X

[Perpetr8r]

Well I know Waudby's alive at least. I see him on MSN from time to time...

I want to make some progress on this game, but I've got a week in which I'll mostly be studying for my exam and until I've completed my exam I don't really want to get sidetracked into anything else. I've worked really hard this semester to get good grades in this particular unit, and I don't want to stop now. That said, there's only 10 days until my exam. Once that's over, I'll be glad to get involved again and work on PISE much more steadily.

This is a short post, I know, but I'm tired now and I don't think there's a lot more to say right now.

[Da Man]

I must admit I'm kinda disappointed but not at all surprised that EB fans (or those with more knowledge of the series) help me more than Pokemon fans.

I'm a fan of both series, if I had the game-making skills i can help you but I'm not very good i'm afraid :(.

I do hope you carry on since this looks promising.

[Kine]

No worries. =) I'm pretty sure that if I was the overly dependant type to try to do anything I wanted, I wouldn't have even started a website at all.

I'll put it to you this way, you know how there's some people who try to do things, but only if they have as much help from others (read: others doing the work for them) as possible? But then quit if that never works out?

I'm not one of those people. I'm the "go-getter against all odds" type. =D

[jasonresno]

This looks absolutely gorgeous. If it ever becomes playable, you HAVE to let me know.

[thedudemister]

Very interesting. The games graphics are very well done.

[Perpetr8r]

This looks absolutely gorgeous. If it ever becomes playable, you HAVE to let me know.

Well, keep an eye on this thread then. I'm sure that with his determination (and perhaps some help from the rest of us :P) this game will definitely make it to completion. Might take a while though.

[Kine]

Well, there's no doubts about that. For more than a week now, I've had to take care of some projects (school/intern) outside of this. Although I managed to find some time to quickly create a sprite for Glooms male and female. I may have also finished Ivysaur and am still in process with Venusaur, who is bigger and has more frames per walk cycle.

I oughta do another species count, just to see how many are completed (not an NPC count, that's going to end up in higher numbers regardless).

My plan now is to just get all 157 done, then go back and make the specific edits for gender/occupation/region/age/enemy. I don't mind making at least the base for some edits, such as the Gloom I mentioned above.

[Perpetr8r]

I too have been really busy, but soon I should be free enough to do more work on the base of the game. I'll keep you updated as things pan out.

[Kine]

This coming week is Thanksgiving week for me. This is good in that I only have two final classes and not a whole lot else. Once the work is done for these (and it isn't a whole lot), I have the rest of this week to get work hard again. Well, that plus I wanna get the next section of my AU-Charlotte comic up provided I draw fast enough. I don't even remember the month I uploaded the first part in anymore.

On a slightly good note, I finished Venusaur yesterday. And this included having to trash the first set of walking south sprites. I'm so glad he's done. I'm backing up my files again, I'm not doing Venusaur over.

Waugh... and to think Rhyhorn is more of the same. Oh well. Thank God it's first generation when the designs were still reasonable. I could be drawing the 4th Gen legendaries *shudder*.

[Perpetr8r]

Just a small update: Today I have tons of chores and stuff to catch up on, tomorrow I have work for most of the day, and so Monday is basically the earliest chance I'll get to work on the game. More info then!

Edit: Scratch that... now work wants me on Monday. *sigh* There goes my ninjukai practice...

[Kine]

Nothing got done over Thanksgiving, the comic too much much longer than I thought. Seeing as it hasn't been updated in 6 months I figured I might as well at least get that out the way. Of course, other spriters have still been working. As long as something gets done somewhere.

I've also got about 4 prospective musicians, but nothing from any yet. I'm still awaiting at least ONE song.

[Perpetr8r]

Gee, Charlotte sure seems to be getting a lot more emotive lately...

Anyway, I couldn't resist reading that comic after you said you'd posted it, so thanks for making me waste 30 mins of my precious time laughing D:<

Anyway, I'm kind of toying with the idea of going crazy gung-ho and finishing off a 3 (almost 4 now) year long project of mine before Christmas or February in the least. Would that be a problem, considering I'd have to pull out of coding PISE for a bit? Well actually, I could probably keep up with anything you wanted, it's just that most of my energy would be elsewhere so progress would be slow...

[Trace]

Only 8 pages and a 3 star rating?! What's WRONG with this community?! (Although ratings don't matter too much...)
And it's been a year! Aiaiai...

The fact alone that you're able to successfully put Pokémon and Mother into one game with the flow that you have is a feat alone.
But this game is looking brilliant.
Don't mind the community going after the fact that Pokémon are in it versus Mother things. Since this IS a Pokémon forum and all. :P

But yeah. Don't quit on this~

[Kine]

Perp- The funny thing is that she was just as expressive in the older version, as well. Pretty much all the facial exaggerations are keep intact.

That probably has a lot to do with my shift towards making her cuter/baby-like during that time.

Anyway, sure, go ahead. It's your project, and I'm sure you wanted to see it through. I know I would want something of mine done first before I helped extensively with another ("extensively" being the operative word. I could probably do easy stuff no problem if time allowed). The way I see it, just give me some news I can use for the winter qtr update on CW, no matter what it is, so that I have an idea what to write about (beyond "more sprites" for the umpteenth time).

Trace- Thanks! And no worries, there will be no quitting. The only thing that could really stop me is either something devastating (like family death...or mine God forbid) or if I felt like raising a family (along with working a full time job), which right now I don't. Not old enough for that, yet. Otherwise, I've got a lot of potential methods I could use to get this thing finished no matter what. Plus, I love this series, and I'm pretty confident it'll be an interesting, hopefully high quality game.

That high quality will most likely come from the coding side, which I can get more guys for, but it'll probably cost some money, so I'm keeping that on the backburner for the moment to see what we can do first. I'll pull out the big guns for the heavy duty stuff that's beyond what we can do (provided I can't find any free help first).

[Perpetr8r]

Well, I'll still try and keep up with the work for you anyway. Would you mind refreshing me on what you want? I'm a little hazy on the details and so it's hard to do anything since I don't know if I'll have to undo it later or not.

[miksy91]

Only 8 pages and a 3 star rating?! What's WRONG with this community?! (Although ratings don't matter too much...)
And it's been a year! Aiaiai...

The fact alone that you're able to successfully put Pokémon and Mother into one game with the flow that you have is a feat alone.
But this game is looking brilliant.
Don't mind the community going after the fact that Pokémon are in it versus Mother things. Since this IS a Pokémon forum and all. :P

But yeah. Don't quit on this~

Somehow people just prefer watching only hacks don't games :S

[Kine]

^ It would appear that way, but then again this game wouldn't be too dissimilar to any MOTHER game.

Any statements I'd make from here would be subjective, so I'll hold them.

Perp, last I remember it was getting sprites to switch, and/or a menu, which was right before you started playing M2 & 3. What I can't remember is what menu interface we decided on. I think it was 3's menu and 2's everything else. I'm sure it's on page 7 somewhere.

[Perpetr8r]

Alright well for the menu I need graphics, and the sprite changey thing is already done... I think. Maybe I'll code some more basic systems. Either way, I'll get onto that tomorrow. For today, I must work on other stuff...

[Kine]

Alright. Well, seeing as I have no menu icons, I'll have to draw that up, as well as look at M3 again. Shouldn't take me long to draw, afterall, it took me no more than 30 minutes I'm sure to make status icons.

I may also finally have a song, too. It mad me sad, which is what I totally didn't expect or ask for, but I think works in the context. It's being worked on, so I'll probably have the finished ver. soon. Then that'll be one of... 19 needed?

Oh, and my musician count is up to 5 now. =P

[Perpetr8r]

Wow, you seem to have a small army growing all of a sudden! Of course, I'm still all alone in the coding department...

[Kine]

Which is pretty unfortunate, especially considering coders are hard to find on a lot of principles. Mainly in that most always say "they don't want to do the work for you", which makes sense, but then if you do the work yourself it's "inefficent and not good enough".

Or something, it's like you can't win, at least in my experience it's been that way (like for actionscript). Then again, there's people in India that have no problems doing it, so... meh. No wonder jobs get outsourced. =\ At any rate, I'll see if I can find someone else who's into Javascript (for free).

Oh, check your email.

[Perpetr8r]

Oh, check your email.

Yeah, I got that. I'm a bit behind with my work lately thanks to a host of minor things popping up, such as the need to do Christmas shopping and get my car fixed. When I get a moment though, I'll do some more research into how to actually make these menus then see if I can't put one together. It's a slow process having to learn everything before I do it, but at the moment it's all we've got.

Admittedly, I'm actually a pretty good coder when I get into it, I'm just stricken with a case of eternal laziness whenever it involves a convoluted process to do simple things. I'm getting better at it though!

Also, people in India have nothing better to do than code, which is why they get so good at it =P

[Konekodemon]

I'm really, excited about this game, I can't wait to download and play this game, from the screenshots it looks like it's going to be a great game, I support this over 200% fully, as a matter of fact I'd like to help, but you probabbly already have all the help you need by now, but there isn't much I could do anyway, expect look around on the web for sprites already made, I don't know anything about making a game

[Kine]

Thanks for your support. I can't really get too much help for this game, there's never been a such thing, though. While true, too many cooks can spoil a broth, it's following one rather strict (but mildly flexible) recipe, and most of the cooks don't ever show up, if bring anything more than water or salt.

Hopefully, that analogy is pretty clear on how it's been for the development so far (and keep in mind I said most cooks, not all, eheh). Nevertheless, don't be afraid that they're might be too many people, in that most of the time, people make games by themselves.

If this was a Kirby game, I could probably do it all myself, but Pokemon is a whole other thing, because there's far too many of the creatures for starters, and I'm just talking the first generation! 151 never looked bigger... x_x

If anything was needed, people who can code with Javascript (mostly, I don't want to work Perpetr8r to death) and anyone who can do good pixel art. That's pretty much it right now.

[ZephyrPlusle]

I've been holding out on commenting until I could quote that guy in Mother3 with the traveling cart. But then I realized that it was silly and I was jsut being lazy, so I'll paraphrase: You guys are amazing. Seriously. The gods are watching over you. We're behind you 100%, supporting you every step of the way.

...Okay, so maybe it loses something.

Anyway, here's the point: this project is amazing, and I'm a spriter, and I would like to help in whatever way I can. Should I PM you?

[Perpetr8r]

Alright, today is the day I start work on that menu. Granted, for now my main focus is still on my games, but I don't want to sit by and not do ANYTHING to help in the meantime. I'll edit this post later with info on how it all went.

Edit: Ah, discovered something already. You know your Raticate sprite? On the diagonal up/right walking animation, one of the tiles has a white background. Not a big issue, but thought you might want to know. Pic explains it all :P

[Kine]

ZephyrPlusle, you can if you want (PM, that is), but email is probably best. I think it's in my profile. At any rate, I'll need a sample of whatever work you've done so I have some idea of your skill level.

Not that making Mother-like sprites is hard, per se, but if it's hard to adapt to styles, that's what I think trips some people up. Seeing as you probably played the third game already, I think you have an idea what I'm going for.

How'd you like it (Mother 3), by the way?

ed: Actually, my email isn't. Er, yeah send me a PM and I'll give it to you.

Perp - Hum. Well, considering I'd have to redo all sprites anyway (to separate actions), just hold onto that for a sec. I have a portfolio review today and a class where I gotta do concept art for our project, but tomorrow, considering today's my last day of school for a while, you'll probably get a lot of NPCs over email just to get them out the way. You don't have to use all of them, it's just getting them into usable format now instead of later.

[Perpetr8r]

Fair enough. It's not an issue to me, I just wanted to point it out so it didn't somehow slip into the finished version as it was. As for today, I did about 5 lines of code before I got a call from a friend who wanted me to come over to his place for like a farewell party, so that kind of ended my work there.

Still, I've picked me up a tutorial and hopefully I can get a hold of Waudby to give me a few pro-tips before I mess everything up and have to start over :P
It also occurs to me that I have to rip the individual menu icons out of that bmp you gave me, so that's next on the list, I guess. With the font, you're going to need to import that somehow, because I don't know any easy ways to replicate it.

Bedtime now, I'll add more later

[Kine]

Oh, actually I probably should've said that you'd get the sprites on Saturday, because our times are different. Or am I the one ahead? I... I don't know! @_@ I'll try not to think about it too much. The point it you'll probably be in bed while I'm doing it. So rather, it was tomorrow for me.

I'm gonna stop assuming you can just import anything straight as is with this program, seems everything needs conversion (except the map, strangely).

Also, the font I was aware would need importing, not being drawn out. I have the font (Orange Kid), but I was just saying the Poke symbol either has to be a graphic or I have to learn how to make a font, which must not be all that hard if many are made near daily (if not daily). Plus, it's merely modifying an existing font to fix the V, W, $ and add a Poke sign (not that I need the $, but it just urks me in type).

[Perpetr8r]

Yeah, I'm ahead of you as far as time goes, but it's not even Satur- ok technically it is NOW, but it's 1AM Saturday morning. I think if you were to do the sprites it'd be done Saturday evening or even Sunday morning for me, but that's fine.

Monday is my mum's birthday, so again things will go on hold from there probably until after Christmas. We'll have to see...

[sffadsad]

This games looks really good, and I'm really excited for it since I'm both a Mother and Pokemon fanatic.

I have two OT questions though. After checking out your site I read the info on stuff like Poke Tales and whatnot I would like to know are they actually cartoons you've made and are they available to the public?

[Kine]

Thanks! Hopefully it shall be good.

But to answer your questions, firstly, no it is not a cartoon. I wanted it to be a cartoon but that's unrealistic (even moreso back then than before Shining Star Kirby was conceptualized where I had the skill, but not the time or patience). I very much treated it as if it were a cartoon, though, with "Who's that Pokemon"s, a mock opening and ending, a title card (where Ash reads off the title in a normal episode of the anime) and a Poke Rap. And in my head, I'd imagine a lot of the first season anime's BGM playing in the background*.

However, this was all on paper. Nevertheless, I held it to the standard of the show itself (when it was good, anyway).

Secondly, no it's not available until this gets done, because I don't want anybody skipping ahead (so to speak). Sure people got into EarthBound before MOTHER (reasonably so before ROMS), or other sequel before prequel game analogies, but I'm doing this one right.

*Heheh, which is honestly why I bought the Pocket Monsters Sound Anime Collection OST. Everytime I listen to it, I not only remember when the Pokemon anime was decent and humble, but I'm ALSO remind of Poke Tales. So it's like a double hit of nostalgia.

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, quick update.

Started work on the menu with Waudby's help. So far, I have the scrolling back and forth between choices part complete. You can see an example here.

It might just be me, but doesn't this look a bit... small? Maybe it's just 'cause the map zoomed out automatically, but I find it a bit hard to look at.

[Kine]

Not necessarily, because you have to remember that a screenshot's going to appear smaller than the actual game window.

Then again, I don't know what you mean by map automatically zooming out. And I also wonder if game windows are adjustable (mine's always full screen, even though I would like a windowed version).

As for the new NPC sprites, I got some, but I'd rather have more done so I'm still holding on to that so I can just send a big zip file, That and I was out all of yesterday.

[Perpetr8r]

That IS the actual game window though. I haven't shrunk the screenshot at all...

Ignore the comment about the map zooming out, I forgot that's the normal size. No rush on the sprites, got plenty to work with on the menu. However, I will need the menu font as well as the images for the menu backgrounds if you want me to complete this system properly.

Man, by the time this game is done this thread is going to have like 150 pages lol

EDIT: Update time. I've completed the menu as requested, with some minor bugs happening via the money display thingy. It'll be fixed once we get ourselves a monospaced font for it all, but until then, this'll do just fine.

Presenting...

[Kine]

Don't worry, I know what program to use to do it. I can have THAT done in minute (I assume, I've never used the program). Also, turns out the font is really text size dependant, so the WV and $ are okay. Just... not at 10 point in MSPaint.

Also, I'm going to move the Gamma symbol to the actual Gamma spot, as it's been put in delta for some reason. And I'll put "Poke" somewhere arbitrary but close to the top of the character map.

As for menu screen stuff, I can make icons for the characters (not that I have to make anything new), and I guess after that it's just the display window itself, which I'd have to look at again. That changes with customability, right? As always, I just use plain so I don't know if the BG color of the M3 menu changes. If that's true, I really don't have to give you a colored BG. Maybe swatches...

Oh, and that being the case about window size, then I guess adjust it a bit. I don't know if it has emulator like settings of normal size, 2x zoom, 3x zoom, etc.

Edit: Well, there's some good new and bad news. Good news is that I made an Orange Kid Plus, which appends the Poke symbol among others (en and em dashes if necessary, a 1/2 symbol if necessary, the 00 cents with the line underneath, and a heart symbol, since that's used quite a bit in text these days, mostly in affectionate tones. I may have done something else).

Bad news is that the demo version of Font Lab won't allow me to export the font in a useable way, so I'd have to purchase it for a serial, or *ahem* some other means. I'll say no more, but you'll get that font somehow. I'm leaving it at that.

[h POKE]

I like the menu system, especially the money display (styled after the Mother games, I see...). It's not intrusive or anything, like some menus I've seen. I think this game could be very interesting even though some of us out there are garbage at the Mother series *coughs*.

[Kine]

Just a notice, I'm down to 4 musicians again, and I'm going to assume it'll really be 3.

So out of 5 different people, only one song. Kinda... sad.

So I'll update my standing of what I could use right now back to someone good with Javascript, spriters, AND a musician who can produce quality stuff.

Don't make me turn to Malaysia, peeps... is what I would say if I had some authority. =P

One thing's for certain. If I find a good musician who can work with vocal/vox manipulation/usage, I'm totally going for my most important song first. I can't keep playing around with it, it's gotta be made.

[Perpetr8r]

You know what? You should so totally have an intro with your voice going "Ok desu ka?" to everything the player gets asked XD

Anyway, what you're getting is really to be expected from free help. Nobody prioritizes it...

[Kine]

Oh, I'm pretty sure I will. That'd be pretty cool. But as for the help thing, I'm well aware. It's just that the numbers seem a bit strange. I mean, I would've at least thought 2 songs out of five people. It's the whole back out before they ever start thing.

This is why I usually try to get new people to do what I need most first, because from my experience, a person is usually good and willing for one shot. I think that's true for most projects.

Hence why I had one spriter just do Charizard, since he was good at big bad pokemon and Charizard's not necessarily a Pokemon I jump up and down for when I think about him. It was the only spriteset he made, but I'll tell you I'm glad he did, it was quality work and I didn't have to do it!

So yeah, I was pretty aware how this goes even before I started this project. I just found the musician to actual music ratio strange is all.

[Perpetr8r]

Well, despite all the setbacks, you've managed to scrape together a whole lot more help than I've ever managed to get for my own projects, so kudos for that. It may just be that the whole Christmas thing has slowed down all your musicians, and they may pick it all back up once the new year has started.

After all, Christmas is indeed a busy time.

Edit: I got your email but... I don't think that's how you make a font for Sphere. Apparently Sphere has its own system for it, which means something has to be done differently.

[Kine]

What? Oh come on, that doesn't even make sense.

I see checking the wiki they use something with the extension .rfn (or something similar). Why can't it be normal and just import a font? Well, fine I'll look into that, but for this editor to allow so much graphic freedom in one aspect, not being intuitive with something as basic as font is laughable.

[Perpetr8r]

Well there's not exactly a big explanation on how to make the font either. Meh, oh well...

[Kine]

Wait, it IS that easy.

File > Import > Windows Font to Sphere Font.

From here, you would choose Orange Kid Plus (which of course would have to be installed) from you personal font list. However, you also get to choose other options like normal, bold, italics, font size... pretty much the same window you'd get in MS Word. If you've used MS Word. The only difference is that the type you import is unchangable, although you CAN make more than one file.

So this means, you could, in theory, make an OKP font italic and 24pt size, which you would then name it something like superEmphasis(.rfn). This font image can't be changed so you couldn't go back to make it 12 point normal. However, you could create another at just 12pt normal and call it gameText(.rfn), and you'd have the game's standard text.

Now, I only need to make the standard. Emphasis in speech would be stressed by all caps. But I'm just saying one could get happy and make a .rfn file for every different combination imaginable. And probably bog down the game in the process.

I'm not sure which text size is best. 10-14pt should be the range. I don't remember if game text is generally larger than text you read in a document or on something like this message board but I would assume as much. At any rate, I'll get this over to you. However, I just explained the process in case you want to make a font, too.

[Perpetr8r]

Um, so I have bad news. Today my laptop fried its CPU or something, and now does not work at all. So until I get something to replace my new $2500 doorstop I'm going to be unable to work on Poke Island (or pretty much anything for that matter).

I haven't backed up the files on there, but I can recover them once I get an external hard drive casing for my drive. Anyway, it's just a setback. A really freaking expensive setback...

[Kine]

Fried the CPU but it was new? Did a power surge happen?

Well, seems like a lot of things are going awry with computers. Apparently one of my musicians said his orchestra VST was acting up, which explains some slowdown on that end.

Well, it doesn't seem to be too bad if you can still get the files (and your own, did you even back up your own game?). Just expensive, which is bad enough on it's own.

Also, remember to make backups of stuff (even if it's just sending email attachments). I could tell you if I lost all the sprites I made, I wouldn't bother starting over. That's why I have backups on a CD AND a flash drive.

Well, let me know when you get it up. I doubt there'll be much lost time. At least the menu was coming along.


Edit, if it matters: I'm at about 1.5 songs created, the 1/2 done song waviering between declined or accepted depending on how he continues with it (by itself it's good, but not what I asked for so...). On another topic, I've got another person who just, out of the blue, decided to help with music. Talk about one door closing and the other opening. The plus side is that this guy can do EB styled music matter-of-factly. So I may have gotten the better end of the deal on this one. The other guy was really good, but he may have been too good as he voiced it being a bit difficult to adjust to making SNES to N64 at best sounding music. I can imagine that being jarring, considering making 8-bit sprites with detail limitation was actually a CHALLENGE for the artists of Mega Man 9. Seems like as time goes by, people forget how to downgrade (not everyone, but some). And having Redbook type audio for PISE would only be good if the entire soundtrack was recomposed, but since I know I'm mooching some EB music, might as well make it all fit (and why bother recomposing all those battle tunes and such from EB when they're pretty much as authentic as they're going to get?*).

On top of it all, the new guy has proven by all his submissions to Starmen that he works fast. So, hopefully, I should be getting some music done double time. Well, considering the rate now, I'd even daresay quadruple time (half joking, half hopeful).

*I say that mainly pointing to the Starman Jr./Mani Mani etc battle tune. I have not heard ANY arrangement of that superior to the original, and it makes sense as it's hard to capture. The closest was done using the samples direct for a module version of the song.

[Amachi]

I think this entire project is hot. So here.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2i9mfed.png

What do you think?

[Kine]

Those are pretty good! They look about correct in style, too. However, I already have Geodude and Diglett. =(

[Perpetr8r]

Ok, so I am finally back. New laptop, I do have all my files still, and a whole bunch more crises going on.
*sigh*

So after my laptop died, and I replaced it, my car was all "Hey, I wanna do that too!"
So now I need a car. And money. And I reall don't honestly know how much time I'm going to have for PISE right now, despite my best efforts. However, I will continue to do what I can for you, and if you want the current version of my files, I'm happy to send that across.

Anyway, just letting you know I'm not dead or anything...

[Kine]

Strangely enough, I had to reformat my computer over the past week due to malware. What makes it worse is that I don't go to sites that are typically hazards on purpose.

Eh, everything's safe, though. Still, it set me back school wise.

Was you car insured? If so, are you able to get any aid from that?

Also, go ahead and send the files. The thing is, if those files are on an email attachment, then what that means is that essentially there's a backup on a server, which is good for all parties.

[Perpetr8r]

Sent. No coverage on my old car, so I gotta pay for everything. It's alright though, I'll figure out a way to get by.

[Kine]

Just so you know, I got the files. I'm also going to start working on the map again, after a bit of a hiatus. Well, not that I was doing much else with the game, but I didn't have much choice.

I still have to finish an animation for class/portfolio. After that's done, I think that'll be the last serious project I have until I get a job. By which I mean a project necessary to get a job or some such. At least, as far as I can tell. Anything afterward would probably be freelance.

[Kine]

A note for anyone following this:

Since I completed that animation (well, to a point) and pretty much cinched the internship I wanted, I can get back to work on this. Nice.

Perp, if you happen to see this, how's it going with expenses and all?

[Perpetr8r]

Sorry for the downtime. Lately I've had a lot of stuff to deal with and it's basically taking up all my free time. I had to re-install windows on my new laptop and thus lost the link here, which I nearly forgot about until just now. Anyway, I have bad news and good news.

The bad news is that I'm going to be REALLY busy this semester at uni. I literally have to make two different games and a games engine, as well as a website and various other things. So I'm going to be kind of nonexistent for a while. The good news, aside from the fact that I have a car again, is that I'm being "forced" to learn javascript, which of course, Sphere is based off of. This means I'll understand a lot more by the time I'm done with it all, and it should help me work on this game.

Uhh.. in case I forget this site again, feel free to keep in touch with me via email. I'll try and help out as much as I can within my now limited bounds.