Pokemon Tier Discussion/Resource [Archive]

Ooka

December 2nd, 2007, 09:38 PM

BEFORE YOU POST : - IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW A TIER LIST WORKS PLEASE DONT POST WITHOUT KNOWING. DO SOME REASERCH ON THE MATTER FIRST. IF YOU DO POST WITHOUT KNOWING AND SHOW THIS WITHIN YOUR POSTS YOU WILL BE INFRACTED, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Yours Truly, S+M mods.

Information

This is a discussion thread for one of the very few things PC is missing, a Tier List. Here you can discuss why you think a Pokemon should have a higher or lower Tier than it already does.

Uber
Pokémon too powerful for OU; a catch-all playing field. Anything goes as far as Pokémon allowed, this is also classed as a ban list from standard play.

Arceus
Darkrai
Deoxys (All forms excluding Speed)
Dialga
Garchomp
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Ho-oh
Kyogre
Latias (regardless of Soul Dew)
Latios (Same as Latias)
Lugia
Manaphy
Mew
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Wobbuffet

Comments
Nothing

OU
Pokémon who are used frequently in battle. Since our focus is on battling COMPETITIVELY, one can safely assume that Pokémon used often in battle are stronger than most other Pokémon because the object of competitive play is ultimately victory in battle, which is achieved by using a "powerful" team.

USED OFTEN, STRONG.

Abomasnow
Aerodactyl
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Deoxys (Speed)
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Forretress
Gallade
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Lucario
Kingdra
Machamp
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Milotic
Ninjask
Porygon-Z
Roserade
Salamence
Scizor
Skarmory
Shaymin - S ("Skymin")
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tentacruel
Togekiss
Tyranitar
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos

Comments
Nothing

BL
These Pokémon are not seen as often as those in the OU tier, but are considered too powerful for UU play (Also considered a ban list for UU). These Pokémon ARE NOT considered any weaker than Pokémon in the OU tier.

USED OCCASIONALLY, STRONG

Alakazam
Ambipom
Arcanine
Articuno
Azumarill
Blaziken
Charizard
Crobat
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Gardevoir
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Houndoom
Lickilicky
Ludicolo
Magmortar
Marowak
Medicham
Mesprit
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Pinsir
Porygon2
Raikou
Rampardos
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Rhyperior
Sceptile
Shaymin
Slaking
Slowbro
Slowking
Smeargle
Staraptor
Tangrowth
Tauros
Torterra
Typhlosion
Ursaring
Uxie
Venusaur
Zangoose

Comments
Nothing

UU
UU - Pokémon not used often, that are relatively weak.

USED RARELY, WEAK

Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Arbok
Ariados
Armaldo
Banette
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Butterfree
Cacturne
Camerupt
Carnivine
Castform
Chatot
Cherrim
Chimecho
Claydol
Clefable
Cloyster
Corsola
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Delcatty
Delibird
Dewgong
Ditto
Dodrio
Dorapion
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Dustox
Electrode
Exploud
Farfech'd
Fearow
Flareon
Frosslass
Furret
Gastrodon
Girafarig
Glaceon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Jynx
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kecleon
Kingler
Kricketune
Lanturn
Lapras
Ladian
Leafeon
Linoone
Lopunny
Lumineon
Lunatone
Luvdisc
Luxray
Magcargo
Manectric
Mantine
Masquerain
Mawile
Meganium
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pelliper
Persian
Phione
Pidgeot
Pikachu
Plusle
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Quilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Raticate
Relicanth
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Scyther
Seviper
Sharpedo
Shedinja
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Spinda
Stantler
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Sunflora
Swalot
Swellow
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Tropius
Unown
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vigoroth
Vileplume
Volbeat
Wailord
Walrein
Whiscash
Wormadam [All]
Xatu

Comments
Nothing as of now.

So start discussing what you think belongs and doesn't belong and we'll go from there.

Updates
-Azumarill (Huge Power) moved to BL and Azumarill (no Huge Power) moved to NU
-Nidoking, Pinsir, Poliwrath and Kangaskhan moved to UU
-Marowak (with Thick Club) moved to OU
-Dugtrio moved to OU
-Mamoswine moved to BL
-Mantine moved to UU
-Probopass moved to UU
-Ambipom moved to BL
-Gallade moved to BL
-Houndoom moved to UU
-Mesprit moved to BL
-Vaporeon moved to OU
-Ending Tier discussion until list is updated
-OU changed to Smogon's
-BL changed to Smogon's
-NU tier removed according to Smogon's Tier List
-UU changed to Smogon's
-Reopening tier chat

celestial_okami

December 3rd, 2007, 12:51 AM

Not sure if this thread belongs here but it is kind of appropriate. Also, I'd like to point out some differences between Marriland's Tier list and Smogons (as you describe it).

(copied from The Clan org. thread.)

Uber > OU -- BL > UU > NU
_______\_ _ _ _ _ _/

Uber is too strong for OU.
OU is used more than BL
BL is too strong for UU
OU is used more than UU
Everything is stronger than NU

The idea here is that pokemon people wouldn't consider for OU because they aren't used there very often, but are too strong to fall into UU. BL is basically the UU equivalent of Ubers. BL is not its own tier, it is a meta tier which is used to separate OU and UU better, so asking for a BL battle is pretty meaningless.

The only reason you would want to move a pokemon between tiers separated by power is because it is too powerful for the tier it is in.

I prefer Smogon's consideration of pokemon, although they don't have a very up-to-date tierlist but rather a large discussion. Also, having good base stats or nice moves by itself doesn't qualify you for a tier. Liking or disliking a pokemon isn't a good justification for putting in a certain tier. You also have to consider the strength of the pokemon relative to others in the tier you are placing if you want to consider something as UU or BL.

I also don't think that PC really contains enough 'serious' players or a strong enough competetive environment to come up with a good tier list. I'm not trying to be a suck up and I certainly am not being elitist, but I think that we'd be best leaving tier construction up to people like those at smogon and ShoddyBattle users.

As for response to your consideration of pokemon in certain tiers, I'd like to make a few comments.
Starmie - If you are trying to compare it Azelf you are missing something huge. Next to Donphan and Forretress, Starmie is one of the best Rapid Spinners in the game. Unlike 'phan and 'tress, it has a recovery move, bolt-beam (and lets not forget the importance of Ice beam), as well as an ability which basically renders it immune to status. It has excellent speed and special attack, and its defenses and HP (while nothing to write home about) are at least not horrible. Comparing a Spinner to Special Attacker / Sweeper is really comparing apples to oranges. On the Special Atk side sure Azelf might be better in a ton of ways, but it can't spin.
Tangrowth - Tangrowth's power lies in its physical defense and resistance to one of the best and most common attacks in the game, namely Earthquake. It has access to Doublepowders, Leech Seed, and Knock Off, the incredibly versatile Hidden Power, and host of other moves. It has better base HP, defense, and special attack than Donphan, and the moves available to it allow for a more diverse moveset than either of the other three physical walls you mentioned. It also has an ability which could see at least some use. Donphan's Sturdy is basically useless given that we play in an environment with clauses, but Tangrowth's could be used on a weather team. I'm not sure where you are getting the 2KO out of Metagross either. CB Max atk Metagross has to maximum damage both times to kill a Max def. Tangrowth without Leftovers, and the chances of getting that lucky with your accuracy and damage is just barely above .2%. It doesn't have Ice Shard for taking down dragons and it does have different weaknesses, but that it has options the others clearly don't. That makes it different, not worse.
BL - Any issues you have with BL are resolved by considering the difference between OU and BL to be usage only. Complaining that one pokemon is in BL and another is in OU is pointless because BL is a meta-tier. It isn't different in power than OU.
UU - Agreed, Azumarill is BL.
NU - Butterfree is among the most useful of pokemon in NU, but being able to sleep with near perfect accuracy probably isn't that much of an issue for the NU tier, and anytime you are going to have a UU battle you could use Butterfree anyway. Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?
Wobbuffet - Really, it gets me every time that people don't understand how insanely powerful Wob is. The video you posted also doesn't really prove anything. He switches in and the opponent can't escape. If they have a choice band they surely die to the inevitable Counter / Mirror Coat. If they don't have said choice item, Encore ensures they can't do anything tricky. If Encore hit an attack, you Counter / Mirror Coat / Switch to counter. If Encore got some other move, you switch to another pokemon and then get in some free set-up (EXTREMELY underrated how powerful this is), and if you are going to die you have Destiny Bond. Huge HP coupled with leftovers and some optional Wish-passing, and you have a terrible, terrible opponent you would hate to see on every team.

Anyway, I know most people will probably go tl;dr but thats my response for now!

Ooka

December 3rd, 2007, 01:12 AM

Finally, someone responded, alright, discussion starts:

Starmie - If you are trying to compare it Azelf you are missing something huge. Next to Donphan and Forretress, Starmie is one of the best Rapid Spinners in the game. Unlike 'phan and 'tress, it has a recovery move, bolt-beam (and lets not forget the importance of Ice beam), as well as an ability which basically renders it immune to status. It has excellent speed and special attack, and its defenses and HP (while nothing to write home about) are at least not horrible. Comparing a Spinner to Special Attacker / Sweeper is really comparing apples to oranges. On the Special Atk side sure Azelf might be better in a ton of ways, but it can't spin.
To be honest, in the amount of time I have battled, I have only faced 1 Rapid Spinning Starmie, and it was Richard Steel's. I have to say, it didn't work that well at all, and even he admitted this and switched Rapid Spin for another Special Attack and went to Choice Specs Starmie. There are way too many Pokemon that Rapid Spin much better, and it hardly ever gets used as such.

Tangrowth - Tangrowth's power lies in its physical defense and resistance to one of the best and most common attacks in the game, namely Earthquake. It has access to Doublepowders, Leech Seed, and Knock Off, the incredibly versatile Hidden Power, and host of other moves. It has better base HP, defense, and special attack than Donphan, and the moves available to it allow for a more diverse moveset than either of the other three physical walls you mentioned. It also has an ability which could see at least some use. Donphan's Sturdy is basically useless given that we play in an environment with clauses, but Tangrowth's could be used on a weather team. I'm not sure where you are getting the 2KO out of Metagross either. CB Max atk Metagross has to maximum damage both times to kill a Max def. Tangrowth without Leftovers, and the chances of getting that lucky with your accuracy and damage is just barely above .2%. It doesn't have Ice Shard for taking down dragons and it does have different weaknesses, but that it has options the others clearly don't. That makes it different, not worse.
Well, I watch a lot of videos on youtube, and I've seen a Metagross with Leftovers almost 2HKOs a Tangrowth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_YOm3z95k
I know you're probably sceptic of if the Tangrowth is EV trained right, but I've battled this person (he has my battle video on his page) and he knows how to ev train right. I know it has Leech Seed, but Seriously, look at the other options from Pokemon that deserve to be OU, even Miltank has a more reliable move and it isn't OU.

NU - Butterfree is among the most useful of pokemon in NU, but being able to sleep with near perfect accuracy probably isn't that much of an issue for the NU tier, and anytime you are going to have a UU battle you could use Butterfree anyway. Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?
No, but it does get U-Turn, which is a free damage switch (even after Mean Look) while the opponent is asleep. Of course it doesn't make a good lead due to Weavile with Pursuit, but it helps for late game sweeping even in the OU metagame.

celestial_okami

December 3rd, 2007, 02:29 AM

To be honest, in the amount of time I have battled, I have only faced 1 Rapid Spinning Starmie, and it was Richard Steel's. I have to say, it didn't work that well at all, and even he admitted this and switched Rapid Spin for another Special Attack and went to Choice Specs Starmie. There are way too many Pokemon that Rapid Spin much better, and it hardly ever gets used as such.

On the contrary, too few pokemon can rapid spin. Of the special-attacking spinners, Torkoal and Blastoise are next in line for special attack at 85, and Starmie certainly leads with 100. Most spinners tend to be physically based, not special. Steel may have just found that Spinner-starmie didn't work for his team, it doesn't mean that Starmie isn't one of the best spinners.

If you want to move it to BL just because it isn't used much anymore (remember, BL and OU aren't different in power) we can reference the ShoddyBattle stats but there we find Starmie comes in #15, Donphan at #25, and Forretress at #12. Still seems pretty popular. In contrast to your example, my personal battle experience has brought me up against quite a few spin-Starmies. But thats just metagame discussion, and as we all know the metagame fluctuates. Keeping an up-to-date listing of pokemon uses to separate OU and BL would be next to impossible unless all of us used a program like Shoddy.

Well, I watch a lot of videos on youtube, and I've seen a Metagross with Leftovers almost 2HKOs a Tangrowth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS_YOm3z95k
I know you're probably sceptic of if the Tangrowth is EV trained right, but I've battled this person (he has my battle video on his page) and he knows how to ev train right. I know it has Leech Seed, but Seriously, look at the other options from Pokemon that deserve to be OU, even Miltank has a more reliable move and it isn't OU.

Well we can argue video vs. damage calculator, but its probably more likely that the person in the battle you are referencing didn't have a max defense Tangrowth or you got extremely lucky. In regards to Miltank I believe you were referencing recovery moves, but Leech Seed isn't entirely that and I shouldn't have to explain why. Moveset also isn't the only thing that determines tier placement.

I don't think you are trying to argue that Tangrowth should be UU so your argument doesn't seem to have too much of a point because the BL tier is based on usage, but thats more of a metagame discussion. I haven't seen more than one or two Tangrowths OR Miltanks in my whole experience, but I use Miltank not uncommonly myself.

No, but it does get U-Turn, which is a free damage switch (even after Mean Look) while the opponent is asleep. Of course it doesn't make a good lead due to Weavile with Pursuit, but it helps for late game sweeping even in the OU metagame.

Right, but once again we are arguing whether or not its too powerful for the tier it is in, which is NU and doesn't have a well-established metagame. Does it stand out by having a huge advantage in Stats, movepool, or ability over its competition (say, Machamp to Delibird)? Its ability to deal SE damage to a low-defense OU tier pokemon is a bit unimportant. Its tier placement is only important if you want to have an NU battle. You can use it in OU and UU if you want, nothing is stopping you! Again, the only important consideration is whether or not its too powerful for NU.

Ooka

December 3rd, 2007, 02:36 AM

Well, since I don't feel like dragging this on for all eternity (which I'm sure would happen) then I'll just say, you're right. I'll change it now.

EDIT: This thread has just become boring.

Saito

December 3rd, 2007, 03:03 AM

abomasnow is more on BL, and you left out tentacruel which is OU/bl

Shiny Umbreon

December 3rd, 2007, 03:39 AM

Kazaam, I won't stick this yet. And how long do you plan to have this discussion.

When an agreement is settled, a closed list of tiers can be stuck in the Battles forum. Until then, it's better if it's in the main D/P forum.

-MOVED-

Bleach and Sunshine

December 3rd, 2007, 03:40 AM

I also don't think that PC really contains enough 'serious' players or a strong enough competitive environment to come up with a good tier list. I'm not trying to be a suck up and I certainly am not being elitist, but I think that we'd be best leaving tier construction up to people like those at smogon and ShoddyBattle users.

PC has proved it's self in the past that it has an good competitive form. You are right at where the Tier list should be left that. Being that Shoddy is new. Smogon is possibly the best and the only site that should.

Zungie

December 3rd, 2007, 03:28 PM

With the risk of sounding brainless, is this basically classing pokémon on an overall basis?
Like taking info. from everything about it and compiling a list of which is most powerfull?
If so, then I think you guys are wasting your time mostly.
Any pokémon that is well trained can put any other through it's paces.
They're created to have certain strenths, and certain weakness'.
I mean, how often do you whitewash someone in a battle?
And if you have more than once, you must have been facing someone with a Bidoof and a Ditto as there team.

Regards, Zungie.

Ooka

December 3rd, 2007, 09:08 PM

Zungie

December 3rd, 2007, 09:16 PM

Hmm maybe you're right to an extent.
Although I'd love to see you come up with a list that is fine with the morjority.
Everybody likes different pokémon, uses them for different reasons and so on.
For example, if you check the Strategies & Movesets board regularly, you'd know how much I prize my Wailord.
Yet you've classed it as UU I believe.
Admittedly, there are alot of pokémon in OU that would give it a real tough fight, but I reakon it could take most of UU.
And Tangrowth? Well it's already been said.
:D

Ooka

December 8th, 2007, 03:51 AM

He, Shiny Umbreon, can you go ahead and lock/sticky this in the battling section?

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

December 8th, 2007, 04:30 AM

Let's not get ahead of ourselves guys. Locking this would ruin the point of the thread. As the metagame evolves, we will have to make necessary changes to the list, especially since I can see several errors off the top of my head.

For example, since when are nidoking, pinsir, and Kangaskhan BL? They're UU, I'm pretty dang sure...and same with poliwrath. Too many BL pokemon IMO that should be either OU or UU. for example, how is thick club marowak BL? That thing is OU all the way. It lols at many physical walls and destroys them with ease :0 And how is /THE/ best finisher in the game, dugtrio, BL?

And IMO, tauros and ambipom should stay in the same tier, whether it's BL or OU.

Just some things I noticed, so yeah.

Ito_Igami

December 8th, 2007, 04:52 AM

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

December 8th, 2007, 05:16 AM

Blastiose is a great pokemon and should be considered BL rapid spin can learn egg moves mirror coat and haze it also learns counter from the move tutor and and why isn't Alakazam considered OU along with Gengar and Dugtrio could be ran as Adamant natured and beat just about any electric type except Jolteon with an advantageous hidden power plus suckerpunch destroys Gengar and Alakazam

...end punctuation...where is it? O_o

But deciphering what you said, Dugtrio is usually ran adamant anyways, it's not a new idea by any means. Gengar is OU already also ;/ and I'd disagree, I think Zam belongs in BL since its power in OUs has fallen quickly. EncoreZam used to rock until sash users and annoying new additions like that ruined it, so yeah.

And about the whole sticky concept, I'm all for it, but I do vote to keep this open, as mentioned earlier.

Ooka

December 21st, 2007, 05:29 PM

So can you sticky this Shiny Umbreon?

Also, I completely agree with you on the Poliwrath, Nindoking, Kangaskan, and Pinsir thing.

Shiny Umbreon

December 21st, 2007, 05:40 PM

Yes, whatever. I can sticky this in the Battle Stadium, but I don't think a discussion thread is needed after the list is made. The Pokémon won't change, the moves won't change. Why do we need to keep updating? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the best thing would be to organize a list where everybody agrees before we treat it as an official one. When it happens, there will be a closed sticky list. Is that okay for you?

And, by the way,

-MOVED and STUCK-

Waker of Chaos

December 21st, 2007, 05:57 PM

Machamp isn't in NU or UU because its too powerful. Can Butterfree say that its too powerful for NU?

I honestly don't believe Machamp should be in NU. He should be moved to BL, especially considering Double Battles. He has No Guard and DynamicPunch, and using him can make moves like Zap Cannon useful. He also as good enough Attack to put a dent in a lot of Pokémon, and even though he isn't all that fast, I don't think that really stops him except against a full fledged special sweeper of the Psychic type (Azelf for example).

That's just my take on this. Everything else is fine.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

December 21st, 2007, 06:57 PM

I think we need to have some profound discussion before we make anything official. Besides, the metagame is aklways evolving and it would be a bad idea to close discussion on it IMO.

Obviously everything uber is official. so no arguing that.

And seriously, what is luxray doing in BL? That thing is in NO way too powerful for UUs, there are better pokemon for sure there.

Faceless*

December 21st, 2007, 09:10 PM

Mamoswine is not OU, it's much more suited in BL

Ooka

December 21st, 2007, 10:18 PM

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.

Shiny Umbreon

December 21st, 2007, 10:21 PM

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.
I guess the same is true for Porygon2 and Porygon-Z and Pikachu and Raichu then? Some others, too, maybe.

EDIT: Wait. Piloswine is strictly worse than Mamoswine. Why would anyone use it? o.O

Ooka

December 21st, 2007, 10:24 PM

There's a difference there, Pikachu gets the Light Ball, and Porygon-2 has better defenses than Porygon-Z, so it gets used as a wall. There really isn't anything better about Piloswine than Mamoswine.

Shiny Umbreon

December 21st, 2007, 10:31 PM

By the way, I was pretty sure Dugtrio was OU. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ooka

December 21st, 2007, 10:43 PM

Well, this is straight from Marriland, the only things I've edited are under the Updates section.

Shiny Umbreon

December 21st, 2007, 11:25 PM

Yes, update that, please, if nobody disagrees. o_O

Faceless*

December 22nd, 2007, 01:11 AM

Are you serious?! Piloswine is even used?! No, Mamoswine doesn't really have what it takes to be in OU

Being resistant to both weather-based teams doesn't give it any boost, heck, it's so lesser used people don't expect an Ice Shard revenge kill on Salamence

If Mamoswine had Swords Dance, it would be a MUCH different story, and Piloswine to be UU? haha, come now, lets not even talk about the pre-evos, no point in using them, AT ALL even for UU battles

As Shiny Umbreon mentioned, the ONLY reason Porygon2 is still used after Porygon-Z is created, Porygon2 provides much more Bulk than Porygon-Z while still pulling off it's coverage, Ice Beam, Tri Attack, Thunderbolt, Dark Pulse

OU and UU is a BIG difference, All Mamoswine's difference from Piloswine is the 30+ on attack and 30+ on speed, and if you're even going to mention the HP and Sp.Atk difference, I'm just going to stop reading

Ooka

December 22nd, 2007, 01:17 AM

Faceless*

December 22nd, 2007, 01:20 AM

I guess the same is true for Porygon2 and Porygon-Z and Pikachu and Raichu then? Some others, too, maybe.

EDIT: Wait. Piloswine is strictly worse than Mamoswine. Why would anyone use it? o.O

Shiny has mentioned this first AND you picked on the wrong subject to quote so you're not reading.

And since you either didn't bother to read or couldn't find a way to back yourself up about my comment, Mamoswine is BL currently

I mean heck, it's considered UU in Smogon, but I don't really trust them

celestial_okami

December 22nd, 2007, 07:11 AM

I mean heck, it's considered UU in Smogon, but I don't really trust them

Actually it has already been noted by many there that the tier list on Smogon in sore need of an update. Mamoswine is considered to be BL by several there.

For example, since when are nidoking, pinsir, and Kangaskhan BL? They're UU, I'm pretty dang sure...and same with poliwrath. Too many BL pokemon IMO that should be either OU or UU. for example, how is thick club marowak BL? That thing is OU all the way. It lols at many physical walls and destroys them with ease :0 And how is /THE/ best finisher in the game, dugtrio, BL?

And IMO, tauros and ambipom should stay in the same tier, whether it's BL or OU.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me that either you clearly don't understand the difference between OU and BL or I am sorely mistaken in my interpretation of your intentions. The only difference between BL and OU is use not power, and the whole point of BL's existence is to separate pokemon from the UU tier. I severely doubt that whether a pokemon is used enough in the metagame to be BL or OU is that important to you.

One person's excellent explanation of BL's relation to OU - "Powerful pokemon which aren't popular right now."

As for the pokemon you mentioned, I believe that at Kangaskhan's position in UU is being considered at Smogon.

I honestly don't believe Machamp should be in NU. He should be moved to BL, especially considering Double Battles. He has No Guard and DynamicPunch, and using him can make moves like Zap Cannon useful. He also as good enough Attack to put a dent in a lot of Pokémon, and even though he isn't all that fast, I don't think that really stops him except against a full fledged special sweeper of the Psychic type (Azelf for example).

That's just my take on this. Everything else is fine.

You don't seem to understand what I was saying. I was not saying that Machamp deserved to be in NU, I was saying why it was where it is. Why is Machamp not NU? Its too powerful for other pokemon in that tier. Why is it not UU? Its too powerful for other pokemon in that tier. Why is it OU and not BL? Its used more than other pokemon in that tier.

I think the main problem is that people aren't thinking about why one would want to move a pokemon between tiers.

A pokemon should be moved to a higher tier (Uber/OU+BL/UU/NU) if it is too powerful for those in the bracket it is currently in. That it can (or can't!) be used effectively in a higher tier doesn't matter.

A good case for this argument - Shedinja should not be moved to Ubers because it can see reasonable use there (and it can, just read some analyses!) because it isn't too powerful for UU and not too powerful for OU. If we move pokemon because they can see use in a higher tier then we end up with situations like this.

Similarly, we (probably) shouldn't move a pokemon like Tentacruel because it isn't too powerful for UU pokemon battles that it warrants its removal to the higher tiers despite its popular use their for its Toxic Spiking ability.

There are certainly more examples to be had, I am sure.

- - - - - - - -
For reference, here is a post from the Smogon discussion with their list of pokemon in tier considerations.

Current Discussion
Kangaskhan
Crobat

BL waiting list. The ones to be removed.
-Feraligatr
-Typhlosion
-Crobat
-Azumarill
-Ursaring
-Slowking
-Mamoswine
-Ambipom
-Jumpluff

UU's to be tested.
-Walrein
-Glaceon
-Pinsir
-Cacturne
-Lapras
-Ninetales
-Poliwrath
-Hitmonlee
-Leafeon
-Clefable

BL's with recommendations for movedown to UU or to be Tested.
Note: Weak recommendations are placed for historical purposes, so that we don't repeat say, the Miltank or Houndoom debate.
-Claydol (Very Strong)
-Cloyster (Very Strong)
-Torterra (High)
-Steelix (High)
-Drapion (High)
-Shedinja (Medium - high)
-Empoleon (Medium)
-Regigigas (Weak)
-Houndoom (Very Weak)
-Miltank (Very Weak)
-Flygon (Very Weak)

So just to make things clear, those in the "BL waiting list" are those which are on the Smogon tier list as UU pending changes to BL.

Last comments for this post. I am not trying to shut this discussion down! I am just trying to stop people from arguing on fairly pointless topics such as a pokemon's BL versus OU status, and from saying that pokemon deserves to be in a certain tier for illogical reasons.

Ooka

December 22nd, 2007, 05:12 PM

Alright, so then maybe we should start discussing more about the pokemon, so we can debate why they don't belong in their current tier.

Faceless*

December 22nd, 2007, 09:02 PM

Alright, so then maybe we should start discussing more about the pokemon, so we can debate why they don't belong in their current tier.

I did discuss about Mamoswine, currently you're the only one to disagree yet you give no reasons rather than the ones I have explained

Ooka

December 22nd, 2007, 09:04 PM

What do I disagree about? Seriously, I'm obviously not the only one that disagrees since I'm not the one who made the original tier list ._.

Faceless*

December 22nd, 2007, 09:07 PM

Um, Mamoswine is OU. Piloswine should be UU, and Mamoswine should be OU, seeing as how there is a definate difference between the two.

Is that easier for you to read or remember?

If you are saying you're not disagreeing, change Mamoswine to BL

ABYAY

December 22nd, 2007, 11:07 PM

The fact about Mamoswine is that it has some really high attack and some nice HP. If it gets boost from a Baton Passer, then it has a lot of power behind it to keep it flowing. Sadly, its sp. def doesn't keep it alive to my Starmie's surf. It runs pretty good with Ice Fang, Stone Edge, Earthquake, and if you want, Double Edge.

The thing about Mamoswine that debates it is that it has good stats, runs in both damaging weathers (pretty good additive), but it just doesn't have enough to be OU in my opinion. It survives my Weavile's Swords Dance Brick Break with only some HP left, but it gets Weavile out of the way with Stone Edge. Packing 400 attack is another thing.

I'm all over the place I know; It's just that it runs okay without support, but with it, it can be pretty powerful. My vote for goes in the tier right under OU (I don't care too much of tiers, so my knowledge is limited.)

celestial_okami

December 23rd, 2007, 01:14 AM

People don't seem to read the whole thread before they post, as evidenced by ABYAY's post, nor do they seem to have the correct interpretation of the tiers at base. I think that will make this discussion quite difficult.

Also, not too many people here have experience doing UU battles. I am trying myself to encourage more UU battles and get more experience myself, but I am not able to get in as many battles as I would like. One of the few people I have been able to get UU battles against is Romance Hero.

Lets talk about a few easier examples - Namely Clefable and Ninetales.

Clefable has a huge moveset, can make itself immune to status, is immune to spikes and stealth rock, can go physical, special, or support, and has only one weakness. On the other hand none of its stats are exceptional and it isn't very fast. Is its extreme unpredictability too much for UU to handle?

Ninetales has good speed and sp. defense, low but acceptable sp. atk, and access to a good list of attacks and status moves. However, it has poor HP and defense, and being a pure Fire type makes it weak two of the best attack types in the game, namely Rock and Ground (and not to mention gives it an SR weakness). Still, fast hypnosis or a burn, workable special attacks, access to Nasty Plot, and a decent ability which lets you switch in easier could be enough to say it needs to take a step up out of UU.

Faceless*

December 23rd, 2007, 01:14 AM

Double-Edge should NEVER be run with Mamoswine, a STABbed Earthquake and a Super Effective Stone Edge/Ice Fang does more than it

but se here, he agrees with me to place Mamoswine on BL, why haven't you made the edit yet Kazaam?

Ooka

December 23rd, 2007, 01:26 AM

Because I can't make such a big edit on the Wii, it only shows half of the edit under the post...

Anyways, I think Clefable is fine where it is, mainly because Clefable's immunity to those things doesn't give it any higher base Defense. And it isn't used enough to make it BL.

Also, I think Ninetails is fine where it is, used too much for UU and not strong enough for OU.

(If I misunderstood your post, just correct me)

Faceless*

December 23rd, 2007, 01:31 AM

Oh wow ._.

At least ask Shiny to edit the post then XD

Ooka

December 23rd, 2007, 02:16 AM

Hey Shiny Umbreon, can you edit the first post for me, with the Mamoswine update?

Smarties-chan

December 24th, 2007, 09:51 AM

I agree with Celestial_okami, Clefable should be moved up to BL. Ooka, 73 base Defense is not low, it's average, and combined with Clefable's high HP, it's enough for Clefable to take a couple of strong physical hits with some EV investment in Defense. Let's not forget that Clefable also has access to Counter (which is legal with Magic Guard, by the way) to deal with those pesky physical attackers. Few unstabed and unboosted fighting moves can take out Clefable in one hit, whereas Counter will be sure to OHKO any physical attacker that thinks it can knock out Clefable. Clefable can also boltbeam and gets access to Softboiled and a notable support movepool which includes Reflect and even Cosmic Power if you want to go with that. Encore is also a nifty move that Clefable can learn.

sims796

December 24th, 2007, 09:58 AM

I thought that average was 80.

Shiny Umbreon

December 24th, 2007, 03:51 PM

Okay, Mamoswine updated now.

Ooka

December 24th, 2007, 04:26 PM

Clefable is and always will be an average Pokemon. Which is why it's UU and not NU. BL = Pokemon that aren't strong enough for OU, but are used a lot. Clefable isn't used a lot.

celestial_okami

December 24th, 2007, 05:51 PM

Actually Ooka, you have it backwards. BL is pokemon too strong for UU which AREN'T used a lot in OU. Also, calling Clefable average is quite wrong. Its stats may be 'average' in that none are exceptional but the number of uniquely different movesets it can sport is ridiculous. You could make a team of Clefable and have each fill a different position. Weather changing / Gravity using, counter-sashing, special attacking, physical attacking, defensive wall, Encore, status, and support all on one pokemon? When was the last time you saw that? Lets not forget that ridiculously good ability either.

Also, I wasn't arguing that Clefable should be BL, as I haven't enough UU battle experience to really justify doing that. I was just giving some examples of pokemon which are in debate.

Ooka

December 24th, 2007, 06:13 PM

Well, I use a Clefable myself on Netbattle, and I know you may say you don't have as many options in that Generation, but again, no access to Shoddy.

Also, a Physical Attacking Clefable doesn't work. I tried it....

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

December 25th, 2007, 04:56 AM

"I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it seems to me that either you clearly don't understand the difference between OU and BL or I am sorely mistaken in my interpretation of your intentions. The only difference between BL and OU is use not power, and the whole point of BL's existence is to separate pokemon from the UU tier. I severely doubt that whether a pokemon is used enough in the metagame to be BL or OU is that important to you.

One person's excellent explanation of BL's relation to OU - "Powerful pokemon which aren't popular right now."

As for the pokemon you mentioned, I believe that at Kangaskhan's position in UU is being considered at Smogon."

None taken. I guess I REALLY suck at explaining myself :(

I get the whole tier thing-ubers are ...ubers :P, too powerful for standards, and BL are just pokemon that are too powerful for UU but don't see much use in OU play. I get that...though I think BL is a USELESS tier now that they are allowed in UUs. seriously, the entire point is to keep them from destroying the UU metagame, and having all these BL/UU teams I saee popping up in S&M with milotic, claydol, and tauros just totally defeat the purpose of the tier and destroy UUs, which is why I only do UU play in ADV now.

Seriously, BL pokemon can compete very well in OUs, and since BL is measured by two things (1. If they are too powerful for UUs, and 2. Their usage in standards), using them in UUs is just no. Seriously, powerful pokemon that don't see usage in UU play...think about it. Let's say Gyarados lost ALL popularity and just fell off the face of the earth. It would fall to BL and then be able to be used in UU play? Um, we have enough trouble getting OU pokemon to counter that thing.

Sorry, just a mini rant I had to go on.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of BL anymore, but if you wish to keep the tier up, be my guest.

BTW, tauros and ambipom see about the same use and have about the same power, so I just don't see how them being in different tiers would be a logical thing :P

celestial_okami

January 1st, 2008, 05:57 AM

None taken. I guess I REALLY suck at explaining myself :(

I get the whole tier thing-ubers are ...ubers :P, too powerful for standards, and BL are just pokemon that are too powerful for UU but don't see much use in OU play. I get that...though I think BL is a USELESS tier now that they are allowed in UUs. seriously, the entire point is to keep them from destroying the UU metagame, and having all these BL/UU teams I saee popping up in S&M with milotic, claydol, and tauros just totally defeat the purpose of the tier and destroy UUs, which is why I only do UU play in ADV now.

Seriously, BL pokemon can compete very well in OUs, and since BL is measured by two things (1. If they are too powerful for UUs, and 2. Their usage in standards), using them in UUs is just no. Seriously, powerful pokemon that don't see usage in UU play...think about it. Let's say Gyarados lost ALL popularity and just fell off the face of the earth. It would fall to BL and then be able to be used in UU play? Um, we have enough trouble getting OU pokemon to counter that thing.

Sorry, just a mini rant I had to go on.

Honestly, I don't really see the point of BL anymore, but if you wish to keep the tier up, be my guest.

BTW, tauros and ambipom see about the same use and have about the same power, so I just don't see how them being in different tiers would be a logical thing :P

Your argument is really to the point actually, and people saying that they "want a BL/UU battle" its kind of a pet peeve of mine. People asking for BL/UU battles probably don't have a good understanding of the tiers because BL and UU are meant to be separate! BL isn't to be included in UU so you are absolutely right to be confused when people (probably ignorantly) try to mix them, but really BL exists for a reason and a lot of people just don't understand it.

KeNiFuS_VII

January 1st, 2008, 07:44 PM

(this is Ooka speaking)

Oh, I guess that's why you acted a little distant when I asked for a BL/UU battle, although I just wanted to inform you that I only asked because before I competitive battled, I would always watch videos on youtube and the titles always contained BL/UU so I figured that was just a way to ask for another type of battle. Of course your explanation makes sence, you don't see many people bringing Ubers and OU mixed do you XD. Well, like I said, your argument makes sense.

(Back to Kenny)

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

January 2nd, 2008, 05:12 AM

Yes, BL is to keep pokemon too powerful for UUs away. Ambipom wrecks havoc in OUs, being a BL pokemon (as it sees the same use as Tauros, which isn't much) it would clean house in UUs.

Actually ,I remember a UU team that had Claydol and Milotic on it. UU isn't just mini-OUs, it is its own separate metagame and people need to realize that.

So yeah. If I see anything, I'll point it out.

EDIT: I have a few I missed. How in the world are Mantine and Probopass BL? Um, both are beatable in UUs easily. I love Mantine, but it is UU for a reason...or it SHOULD be UU. Pushing highly used UUs to BL is only ruining the UU metagame, not helping it.

Ooka

January 2nd, 2008, 01:47 PM

I'm sure a Life Orbed Arbok would OHKO, if not 2HKO both of those with Thunder Fang and Earthquake. And it's NU.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

January 2nd, 2008, 09:18 PM

I'm sure a Life Orbed Arbok would OHKO, if not 2HKO both of those with Thunder Fang and Earthquake. And it's NU.

That is kind of what I'm saying :P Moving them up to BL is just no.

Seriously, this list just has some glaring flaws, that being one of them. All of the upper UUs have been moved to BL for no reason. Seriously, how in the world did all the UUs end up in BL?

Ooka

January 2nd, 2008, 10:17 PM

celestial_okami

January 2nd, 2008, 11:41 PM

Smogon places Arbok, Probopass, and Mantine at UU, not BL.

Although admittedly the Smogon tier list combines UU and NU, with so few people playing NU (read: none?) it probably isn't an issue.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

January 4th, 2008, 03:00 AM

Well, like I said, this list came straight from Marriland. You can go have a look there if you'd like, although I warn you, Marriland=Phail....

Maybe they consider Probopass' high special defense, and sandstorm boost. But I have no idea what's up with Mantine.

I'd be more than happy to take this and make common sense edits (like Mantine) and move those to their proper places (or anybody, I don't care, as long as it's fixed). And seriously, there are so many UUs that can own probopass.

If somebody would make these common sense changes *cough mantine cough,* that would really add to the quality of this list.

Moral of the stroy: copying from other websites is meh, but obviously Marriland is the last place to look for this kind of stuff. lol

Really too tired to think though, I'll edit this post out soon with some thoughts on what should be moved and whatnot...

EDIT: Celestial, just to point out that Smogon's tier list is by far the move accurate I've seen so far. Maybe looking at that as reference would be a good idea, as the tiers are pretty accurate there.

Eos Aduro

January 4th, 2008, 03:06 AM

Kecleon is UU not NU I believe too.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

January 4th, 2008, 03:17 AM

Could somebody please tell me how Luxray, Toxicroak, nintales, and raichu are BL? No way they're too powerful for UU, bring them back down.

ABYAY

January 5th, 2008, 06:36 AM

Ninetales I understand; Hypnosis and Nasty Plot is a wonderful combo on it. Raichu just isn't quick enough, and although Luxray has downed some OU dragons with its Scarf'd Ice Fang, its moveset is just too weak unless it has X4 over some things. Toxicroak would need more speed.

I'm not a tier expert, nor do I care to be. I just use pokemon, play, and have fun. I don't like to get too technical, but EV training and IV searching is what I must do to stay with competitive edges, then I suppose I must.

Ooka

January 5th, 2008, 06:52 AM

Alright, I'm going to go make some changes, and I'll list them so if any of you guys see anything you want me to change afterwards, tell me.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

January 11th, 2008, 08:37 PM

Houndoom = BL, it would wreck UUs.

Surprised Absol and Linoone are BL, no way are those things too powerful for UU. Looks better, but still needs a little touching up ;)

EDIT: Tentacruel is UU all the way.

Ooka

January 11th, 2008, 09:09 PM

Well, I believe Absol is BL because of it's high attack, it's ability to kill with Choice Scarf, access to both Swords dance and Sucker Punch, it can Utilize Fire Blast, and it's just plain awesome.

I don't think Linoone needs to be there though, even with Belly Drum and Extremespeed.

Shiny Umbreon

January 16th, 2008, 06:22 PM

Let's see. I was playing Shoddy and a Deoxys (Speed) appeared. I don't know why is this. I still see it as an Uber. Opinions?

Dark_Azelf

January 16th, 2008, 06:42 PM

Let's see. I was playing Shoddy and a Deoxys (Speed) appeared. I don't know why is this. I still see it as an Uber. Opinions?

Yeah Deoxys E (Speed Form) has apparently become unbanned as there is nothing "uber" about its stats. They fail to be even base 100 apart from speed.

A couple of threads on Smogon saying its allowed now in tournaments and on shoddy etc and has moved tier to OU.

Its Base stats

HP - 50

ATT - 95

DEF - 90

SP.ATT - 95

SP.DEF- 90

Speed - 180

its base stats are nice, but not ZOMFG UBERZORZ !!!! (apart from speed :p)

I would post links, but its not allowed :p

Ooka

January 16th, 2008, 09:11 PM

If someone would like, they can just make a repost of this, and delete this thread as I won't be editing it.

_Prince_

January 21st, 2008, 02:37 PM

As I've seen in a quite a few OU battles where Deoxys-S being used against me. Shouldnt the list be updated then. What's the point in me having my scarf-Z and scarfcross anymore? Completely useless against deoxys-S. Better off carrying extra counters. I'm forced in using my spirtomb and cress more often that I'd normally use them because of Deoxys-S. =/ Anyways ... Isn't Deoxys-S still being tested or is it really official ?

If it is ... * I better start searching for a Deoxys*

Yeah Deoxys E (Speed Form) has apparently become unbanned as there is nothing "uber" about its stats. They fail to be even base 100 apart from speed.

A couple of threads on Smogon saying its allowed now in tournaments and on shoddy etc and has moved tier to OU.

Its Base stats

HP - 50

ATT - 95

DEF - 90

SP.ATT - 95

SP.DEF- 90

Speed - 180

its base stats are nice, but not ZOMFG UBERZORZ !!!! (apart from speed :p)

I would post links, but its not allowed :p

Well... IMO Deoxys-S will change the OU metagame a bit, it's not a wall breaker, it will just raise a usage for a few pokemon and decrease some. It will be the best revenge killer ever. It'll be a good late sweeper once all its counters have gone, that's the only problem I fear, that it will be an awesome late good sweeper and people will struggle to cope with that. Spirtomb is one the best counters for Deoxys-S.

Oh Dark_Azelf, apart from speed being uber-ish, it has an insane movepool. =P

EDIT: Sorry Ooka I didn't read your post that you won't be editing this thread anymore.

Ooka

January 21st, 2008, 04:00 PM

Actually, I'm editing the list again, but I can't update until later (Making a move from Marriland tier list to Smogon)

Shiraishi

January 21st, 2008, 05:18 PM

So..are we using shoddy's opinion or smogon's opinion for Deoxys-S.(or our own XD)

Ooka

January 21st, 2008, 05:37 PM

I say our own for that specific pokemon. And I think we all agreee on OU do we not?

ABYAY

January 23rd, 2008, 02:42 AM

Go ahead and move Deoxys-Speed down to OU. Who cares if it's extremely fast? Someone tried the stall version against me just now, and I downed it rather easily to be honest. I faced another in sweeper form earlier... same result ^^

Had the Deoxys been defense form if allowed... that would've been a problem.

We should just have the Pokecommunity Tier list on what's allowed and what isn't (Uber - OU) and such. I mean, some of us see some glaring problems with other tier lists, such as Luxray and such.

Tortured_Soul

January 23rd, 2008, 03:30 AM

OU:
_____________________

Aerodactyl
Azelf
Blissey
Breloom
Bronzong
Celebi
Cresselia
Donphan
Dragonite
Dugtrio
Dusknoir
Electivire
Forretress
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor
Gyarados
Heatran
Heracross
Hippowdon
Infernape
Jirachi
Jolteon
Lucario BL
Machamp
Magnezone
Medicham
Marowak (with Thick Club)
Metagross
Milotic
Porygon-Z
Raikou
Rhyperior
Salamence
Skarmory
Slaking
Slowbro
Snorlax
Spiritomb
Staraptor BL
Starmie
Suicune
Swampert
Tangrowth
Togekiss
Torterra BL
Tyranitar
Vaporeon
Weavile
Weezing
Yanmega
Zapdos

BL:
________________

Absol
Alakazam
Ambipom
Arcanine
Armaldo
Articuno
Azumarill (Huge Power)
Blaziken
Cacturne
Chansey
Charizard
Claydol
Cloyster
Cradily
Crobat
Dodrio
Drapion
Dusclops
Empoleon
Entei
Espeon
Exeggutor
Feraligatr
Floatzel
Flygon
Frosslass
Gallade
Gardevoir
Glaceon
Hariyama
Honchkrow
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kadabra
Kingdra
Lapras
Leafeon
Lickilicky
Linoone
Ludicolo
Luxray UU
Magmortar
Mamoswine
Mesprit
Miltank
Mismagius
Moltres
Ninetales
Ninjask
Pikachu (with Light Ball)
Porygon2
Raichu
Rampardos
Regice
Regigigas
Regirock
Registeel
Relicanth
Roserade
Sceptile
Scizor
Sharpedo UU
Shaymin
Slowking
Smeargle
Steelix
Swellow
Tauros
Tentacruel
Toxicroak
Typhlosion
Umbreon OU
Ursaring
Uxie
Venusaur
Wynaut
Zangoose

UU
__________________

Abomasnow BL
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Banette
Bastiodon
Bellossom
Bibarel
Blastoise
Camerupt
Carnivine
Cherrim
Clefable
Crawdaunt
Dewgong
Drifblim
Dunsparce
Electrode
Exploud
Fearow
Flareon
Gastrodon
Glalie
Golduck
Golem
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop BL
Houndoom BL
Huntail
Hypno
Kabutops
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Lanturn
Lopunny
Lunatone
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Mightyena
Mr. Mime
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Noctowl
Octillery
Omastar
Persian
Phione
Pinsir
Plusle
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Rapidash
Rotom
Sableye
Sandslash
Seviper
Shedinja
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Solrock
Sudowoodo
Torkoal
Venomoth
Vespiquen
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein BL
Whiscash
Wormadam [Ground]
Xatu

Ichaste Pekoni

January 23rd, 2008, 04:20 AM

I say our own for that specific pokemon. And I think we all agreee on OU do we not?

No.

I'm not disagreeing just because it's a Legendary, though, but because of the stats & movepool. For starters, I don't think that ANY non-Uber Pokemon should be able to go over 500 (or even 450) in a single stat. In fact, the only current OU that comes to mind as being able to do that is Blissey, and that's because of the infamously-abyssmal DEF. As for the ATT & DEF stats, yes they aren't spectacular, but they aren't too bad, either. Deoxys can still take hits better than Infernape & Starmie as well as generally dish out damage just as well as the latter stat-wise (if not better).

As for the movepool...well, Dark_Azelf already pointed out one dangerous combo in Strategies/Movesets, but there's also all of the moves the other forms learn that have to go into consideration. Including the moves it learns in Defense & Attack form...that's actually a reasonable movepool, at least more than you would get on a usual Pokemon. There's still the moves from the earlier generation, like Seismic Toss & the elemental punches...

With the right set-up, it can become a deadly sweeper far too easily...

Ooka

January 23rd, 2008, 11:39 AM

*Looks at Ninjask*

~

Lumine

January 23rd, 2008, 11:50 AM

*Edits reply*
Nvm about my opinion, I wasn't thinking >_>

Faceless*

January 23rd, 2008, 08:52 PM

Smogon places Arbok, Probopass, and Mantine at UU, not BL.

Although admittedly the Smogon tier list combines UU and NU, with so few people playing NU (read: none?) it probably isn't an issue.

Lol, by seeing this, I bet Smogon has enough reputation to make everyone believe Arceus is OU, the morons ._.

So.. give me a position Arbok can fill even on UU, a sweeper? a Wall? a cleric? no, it's a FREAKING CRAP! I dont' trust Smogon at all, I obviously think they're taking advatnage of their reputation.

Ooka

January 23rd, 2008, 09:19 PM

Tortured_Soul

January 24th, 2008, 02:39 AM

Actually, I think it could fill the sweeper position. I've seen it 3HKO a Tangrowth with Gunk Shot and a Life Orb. Hit it on the switch in, Tangrowth Leech Seeded, it hit again, and then it hit for the last turn, removing a threat of Physical walling.

No way, surely not. A 350 Atk Gyara with a DD and using Ice Fang doesn't even 3HKO with Leftovers, so how in the hell can Arbok?

~T_S

Ooka

January 24th, 2008, 04:08 AM

STAB possibly... ~

Tortured_Soul

January 24th, 2008, 04:25 AM

Still......

Metal Kid Time... ;)

~T_S

EDIT: lol, I am so sorry. We are both wrong...

1x Gunk Shot = 65.35% - 76.98% after leftovers...

~T_S

Ooka

January 24th, 2008, 04:37 AM

How was I wrong? Like I said, I saw it happen. Maybe it was jolly or somethin, but it happened.

Tortured_Soul

January 24th, 2008, 04:45 AM

I meant you were wrong about the 3HKO. Still, Arbok isn't really all that useful. It can take down a wall, big whoop, now be a theat and do what you're meant to do, kill stuff!

~T_S

Ooka

January 24th, 2008, 09:10 PM

Heh, like I said mullac, I saw it happen.

Harpuia

February 13th, 2008, 10:41 PM

well if a tangrowth saw that it was about to die to a stupid little arbok why wouldn't it switch Ooka whoever you "Saw" battling is a noob.....

Ooka

February 13th, 2008, 10:57 PM

They aren't a noob ._.

If you're against a Physical Sweeper, of course you would switch in a physical wall....

Harpuia

February 13th, 2008, 11:01 PM

oh sorry I was thinking of sludge bomb not gunk shot....and how would an arbok do that?
its attack sucks...

Thebiggamer

February 17th, 2008, 03:24 PM

How often is the list updated on the first page?

Ooka

February 17th, 2008, 05:08 PM

It just gets updated whenever I feel like it xD

Thebiggamer

February 17th, 2008, 06:00 PM

k i'm making a UU team and didn't want to add something that just got boosted up or anything

Ooka

February 17th, 2008, 06:23 PM

I was planning on updating it today.

Thebiggamer

February 17th, 2008, 09:05 PM

Right I just checked, all pokemon I use fall under UU except kingdra who is Bl so I'm in good waters atm

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

February 17th, 2008, 09:08 PM

Ooka

February 17th, 2008, 11:38 PM

Your team isn't a UU Team if it has even one BL pokemon in it.

BL IS LOWER OU.

The only difference is that BL are weaker and/or aren't used as much as OU pokemon. Their banning from the UU tier remains the same.

Also what happened to NU? It does have a metagame you know :/

Well, like I said, I was copying Smogon straight from the site, and if you haven't noticed, they got rid of NU, since people started using Beedrill in UU and actually killing stuff with it. Even though it's more of a BPer. Although Tropius isn't worth anything, but according to them, NU no longer exists.

Loto

February 18th, 2008, 12:21 AM

Ah thanks for the update on the list, don't gotta look at smogon for Tiers now. ^_~

Ooka

February 18th, 2008, 12:25 AM

Alright, so now for the discussion.

What are people's view on moving Dugtrio to BL. I personally haven't seen any in a few weeks, and I've battled at least 50 people during that time. I know it's the best Cleanup pokemon in this gen, but ever since Infernape I just haven't been seeing it much.

Samson

February 18th, 2008, 12:29 AM

yah i haven't seen one in a while as well. richard was the last one actually and that was a long while ago XD

that still doesn't change the fact that arena trap is a very useful ability.

Ooka

February 18th, 2008, 12:31 AM

Well yeah, but like C_O has stated tons of times, it's not how good a pokemon is that determines if it's OU or BL, but only how much people use it. (not saying that I don't like Revenge killing Infernapes with one xD)

Samson

February 18th, 2008, 12:45 AM

well true, but beyond that, it may be as simple as how much the game has changed. he's not all that needed when garchomp can pull off a swords dance and take out half a team. and aside from that, you don't see much vulnerable sweepers in battle as much. it's a whole lot of tanks and walls. once again, thank garchomp for that.

that shark is such a punk.

Ooka

February 18th, 2008, 12:49 AM

So then what's your view on the moving of Dugtrio?

Samson

February 18th, 2008, 12:55 AM

i really don't care XD. but for the sake of discussion, i think he fits. he can actually pull off multiple kills in BL. even then, he's never too broken when you have kingdra owning the tier.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

February 18th, 2008, 12:55 AM

You can interpret the difference between OU/BL in several ways. Really it doesn't matter since they're both the same tier really.

And honestly I don't care what Smogon says, there IS a NU tier and you should really put one on here. If you have to, use Smogon's ADV pagwe to determine the tiers.

Because seriously leaving out a full tier is nonsense. Again I don't care what Smogon says (after all, they're the morons that say Wobbuffet is OU :/)

BTW Ooka this is off-topic but were you by any chance on Netbattle today? Soembody battled me and went "yeah I knew that team looked familiar" and I'm like O_O

Back to tier listings, if there's a tier to get rid of, it's BL. It's honestly a really useless tier. We need NU or this tier list isn't really as good because I used to play NU a lot. I honestly have no clue about this gen's tier thing but I'd like to know. So I say bring back NU! Bring down Smogon!

EDIT: Dugtrio is OU. I've seen plenty on Shoddy :(

Ooka

February 18th, 2008, 12:59 AM

Alright, so then decide what we want. I say:

Tropius (Definatly)
Wormadam (All but Ground)

So yeah, those are just a couple, so I guess you guys can list some.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

February 18th, 2008, 01:24 AM

Well there are really obvious NU pokemon like Delibird, Pidgeot, Minun, Plusle...

Ooka

February 18th, 2008, 01:33 AM

Um, I really think Pidgeot belongs in UU, I've used one before, and believe me, they shouldn't be underestimated.

Samson

February 19th, 2008, 07:08 AM

i really don't see why tropius is NU. i use it myself and it is a monster staller. i've had a couple curselax's and a skarmory fall to it.

both minun and plusle have nasty plot at their disposal, so group that with baton pass + their 95 base speed + their OK sp def + encore, and you have some viable bp'ers for UU. hell, minun can actually take a hit better than raichu.

pidgeot is definitely UU. it actually has some tanking abilities (at least in that tier XD), but can easily be compromised as a CBer, having access to brave bird, u-turn, pursuit and STAB return.

delibird... NU for sure lol i keep trying so hard to make this thing slightly useful, but it can barely attempt that.

magcargo is NU. has slight potential, however.

any more NU takers? i'm really up for this discussion.

Ooka

February 21st, 2008, 03:07 PM

Whoops, almost forgot about this thread.

Farfetch'd is NU for sure.

Beautifly only has it's sp. atk, which doesn't get it far.

Dustox is basically the same case as Beautifly, only with Sp. Def.

So yeah, there are three more.

(my curselax has Fire Punch, so it won't be getting walled by any tropius anytime soon xD)

Samson

February 22nd, 2008, 12:32 AM

oh that's what you think XD. it can take a hit very well.

ledian lol.

Ooka

February 22nd, 2008, 12:41 AM

Heh, yeah. Agreed.

Beedril.

Samson

February 22nd, 2008, 12:57 AM

beedrill? o.O it can sweep UU very nicely.

Ooka

February 22nd, 2008, 01:03 AM

Meh, Aggron, Bastiodon, and party take care of it far too easily after it's set up a Swords Dance or Agility, forcing a switch.

Samson

February 22nd, 2008, 06:53 PM

umm it has brick break. o_O

also, the only real UU set to wall it is sandslash, who still gets seriously hurt by stab x-scissor after swarm activates. but i guess that's the thing about beedrill. it relies on surviving a hit before it can sweep, and usually that includes endure or, more frequently, focus sash which is easily defeated with hail/priority moves.

Ooka

February 22nd, 2008, 09:15 PM

Luckily in UU hail isn't that common due to no Snow Warning.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

March 12th, 2008, 03:27 AM

Just thought I'd point something out (all these posts deleted...ew) is that I think we shouldn't be so "who cares" about BL/OU placement. They might be practically the same tier but people (as wrong as it is) DO use them in UU sometimes and some people actually do use BL teams in the "BL metagame" (which I've honestly never heard of but I've been challenged to these odd BL battles on shoddy), so I think we should treat it like it's a "real" tier (meaning not just a tier to ban things from UU, or in Uber's case OU) so that these kind of lol metagames and uses for BLs can be somewhat balanced.

I think what people use BL for now is totally crazy, but IMO we should adapt to that. If that made any sense.

Candymancan

March 16th, 2008, 10:48 PM

El Gofre

March 16th, 2008, 10:51 PM

To bad Groundon and Kyogre on the Uber list, water and sunnyday teams would really benifit from those affects.

Maybe next game i soppose..

Erm, you're honestly suggesting Kyogre and Groudon be moved down? Even without their abilities they are obscenely good, they are capable of sweeping entire OU teams alone. Unless 5th gen is 100 new ubers, they're stayin put

Ooka

March 16th, 2008, 10:59 PM

Yeah, as Gofre said, they/re just way too powerful to be used in OU.

Candymancan

March 16th, 2008, 11:10 PM

Erm, you're honestly suggesting Kyogre and Groudon be moved down? Even without their abilities they are obscenely good, they are capable of sweeping entire OU teams alone. Unless 5th gen is 100 new ubers, they're stayin put

erm, yea i am.

There are alot of pokemon that very near there stats, only below 10-or 20 on 1 or 2 stats.

Somehow i doubt they could sweep an entire team. But then thats the problem with people and there Overused pokemon, there so predictable a single pokemon could kill half the team.

If those 2 were slower then i guess it would be better, there to fast for the stats they have spread out i soppose. but still

A single starmie could kill groundon in one hit with grassnot, his special def isnt to high, and he weighs 2k pounds and hes also much slower.

Kyogre i guess would be more of a problem, unless you have a electivire with thunderpunch, or any pokemon with thunderpunch that has a good atk, kyogre's defense and hp arent to bad i dont think he could last more then 1 or 2 hits

Ooka

March 16th, 2008, 11:29 PM

100 150 140 100 90 90

115 140 130 55 55 40

Now look at those. The bottom ones are the closest OU gets to Groudon. They're Rhyperior's stats. They aren't getting budged, at all.

Dark_Azelf

March 16th, 2008, 11:33 PM

To bad Groundon and Kyogre on the Uber list, water and sunnyday teams would really benifit from those affects. I dont understand why there on there list but the 3 Regi's arent lol. There stats and movepools are exactly the same for the mostpart. Regirock has 10 more base stats, not as much atk but alot more def, same goes with registeel and ice. Is it simply because of there ability's ? I wish i knew who came up with these rules.

I made an ice team and im gonna do a sandstorm team next, i also want to make a fire/grass team, and water, sadly tho you have to use bronzong and teach pokemon sunnyday and stuff which doesnt last long enough IMO. 5 Moves doesnt last very long

Maybe next game i soppose..

lolwut ?

Hi my name is Kyogre, i only have 2 weaknesses and base 150 sp.att and base 140 sp.def =/

Hi my name is groudon, i have base 150 att and base 140 def =/

Hi my name is regirock, i am weak to ground, fighting and other common types of attack.

Hi my name is regice, i get crippled to stealth rock, and again i have very common weaknesses.

hi my name is Registeel and im offensively retarded, i also have very common weaknesses.

Please do some research to what defined an uber.

These reason are

Overcentralization : - by this i mean, if everyone uses Groudon and Kyogre, people will have to use specific pokemon to counter these two, thus limiting the pokemon that are used.

No counters:- Name one pokemon that can switch in safely to kyogre or Groudon in standard play? Again this links back to overcentralization, theres a reason Shedinja in only used frequently in UU and in UBERS to counter Kyogre, but again kyogre sometimes has toxic just for it, but why should EVERYONE have to use Shedinja ?. Even Blissey cant counter Kyogre, whats blissey going to do when it Calm Minds up, and with rain, it gets 2hko'd after a few calm minds. Choice Specs Kyogre 2hko's Blissey with Waterspout, with a Few att evs, Aqua Tail 2hkos it. Groudon is similar, after a Swords Dance, even Cresselia cant stop it, if it packs the standard Shadow Claw, even Skarmory gets wasted by a swords danced life orb'd Fire Punch. Coming off base 150 att, theres very little that can stop it.

These should stay in ubers for a reason, hence thats why the only counters are in there, Giratina, Lugia, latias etc.

Also ROFL, Starmie is not a counter. Good luck at surviving a Stab'd earthquake coming of base 150 att =/. So should everyone have to use a Starmie or put grass knot on fast things JUST to counter Groudon ? OVERCENTRALIZATION !!!

Ooka

March 16th, 2008, 11:59 PM

Actually, Abomasnow counters Kyogre extremely well. Even the Calm Minding ones.

Dark_Azelf

March 17th, 2008, 12:11 AM

Actually, Abomasnow counters Kyogre extremely well. Even the Calm Minding ones.

I dunno how much a Calm minded surf would do. However I do know Aboma 0 hp/o sp.def gets 3hko by a modest kyogres surf,even without the rain, but i suppose if you run a max hp and max sp.def Calm/Cereful/Sassy Aboma, possibly. Still that brings up overcentrilazation, everyone shouldnt be forced to use Aboma just to counter Kyogre, the same with all other ubers.

Ooka

March 17th, 2008, 12:16 AM

Dark_Azelf

March 17th, 2008, 12:36 AM

I wasn't saying that to agree that I don't want it in Ubers. I was saying that cause you said there wasn't anything you can switch in to completely counter them. With Abomasnow, not only do you get rid of the rain, but Abomosnow usually runs Sassy, and carries Leech Seed and Wood Hammer, which pretty much LOL at Kyogre.

I know, i didnt mean it like that, i meant that everone shouldnt have to use certain pokes just to counter it.

Name one pokemon that can switch in safely to kyogre or Groudon in standard play? Again this links back to overcentralization,theres a reason Shedinja in only used frequently in UU and in UBERS to counter Kyogre, but again kyogre sometimes has toxic just for it, but why should EVERYONE have to use Shedinja ?

I mentioned Shedinja here, but i could've mentioned Abomo, or even Lanturn, im just bad at wording things, i meant there are only a few things that can come in, most stuff in standard gets wasted by it, and there are only a few exceptions, and no one should be forced to use just those certain pokemon. <<I hope that was clearer XP

shedinjask

April 6th, 2008, 07:06 PM

NU is a viable tier. If anything, get rid of BL.

Ooka

April 6th, 2008, 07:12 PM

Um, I already know this, and if you would have read, we're currently discussing the NU tier....

Dark_Azelf

April 6th, 2008, 07:16 PM

Um, I already know this, and if you would have read, we're currently discussing the NU tier....

Isnt NU too similar to UU, so you cant really distinguish what goes where, you probably could, but its gonna cause you more trouble than its worth.

ABYAY

April 6th, 2008, 07:30 PM

I personally think that Sharpedo deserves higher credibility (I notice it in NU, so correct me if I'm wrong.) because it has 120 base attack, and 95 base speed, as well as 95 sp. atk. Now, I know its base defenses are crap, but its rough skin abilty deals some damage to physical attackers (and ruining Focus Sash for some). It gets access to Waterfall, Ice Fang, Earthquake, Night Slash, and Crunch as big physical forces. On the special side, you have Surf, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Ancientpower (???don't know why, but) and Hidden Power as special choices. If you like Focus Sash in a less sandstorm UU play, you have Agility to work with. Pop on a Choice Band or if you're crazy, Specs or Scarf.

Again, sorry if I'm ranting about a false sight here. I'm going by what I see on PC's set.

Edit: -_-...yep, it was a mistake, but I'm at least saying some big + issues on that shark. I didn't see anything for NU on the tier list here. However, Luvdisc in my opinion is lol.

Dark_Azelf

April 6th, 2008, 07:39 PM

In regards to garchomp in ubers, do you think it would be a good idea to get a mod to make an announcement about it here in the battle center, so everyone knows ?

Also is is a ban for a month seeing how it influences the metagame, or is it permanent ?

Ooka

April 6th, 2008, 07:43 PM

I think we should go for a month and make a final decision after the time period is up. I'll also be trying a Garchomp in a few Uber battles, just to see if it CAN, in fact, function there.

I'm going to send a PM to S_U and see if he can make an announcement about it.

ABYAY

April 6th, 2008, 07:56 PM

Without Garchomp in the OU game, I can expect less concerns of getting Ice moves on some, but not all pokemon. I think Garchomp was one of the top reasons why Blissey wanted Ice Beam, just for defensive retaliation or hitting it on the switch-in. However, that's just my opinion.

Fortunately, it won't have any impact on me. I don't even use Garchomp O_o...or have one for competitive gameplay.

Shiny Umbreon

April 6th, 2008, 09:15 PM

I made the announcement already, so Garchomp is banned from the OU tier for one month as I specified there.

Tortured_Soul

April 6th, 2008, 11:11 PM

Ooka

April 6th, 2008, 11:14 PM

*Goes and Deposits ScarfPory*

That's a weight off my shoulders.

Tortured_Soul

April 6th, 2008, 11:17 PM

lol, definately. Now Scarfusers will be given the nudge backwards. Reason being all pokemon who are fast enough to need to use Scarf to beat them are now counterd by the common walls (Gengar -> Blissey, Weavile -> Skarm/Forry etc)

~T_S

ABYAY

April 7th, 2008, 12:23 AM

Pory-Z lv. up. Porygon-Z learned Choice Specs over Choice Scarf! lol no more getting 1-0'd when I'm 4-1 ahead, getting screwed over by a crit by him and a miss by me with a Close Combat in a sandstorm!

Dark_Azelf

April 7th, 2008, 03:37 PM

It will impact immensly. That is a great weight off your shoulders not having to counter Garchomp.

~T_S

Especially now i dont have to pack a Steel JUST to absorb Outrages from that Choice Band Idiot =) Or worry about my Ice Beams/Shards Missing only on lolGliscorlol.

Draggy is bad with Outrages aswell, oh well, at least Ice beams dont miss and its weak to Stealth Rock, which is some comfort, AND i dont have to worry about the possibility of Draggy living an ice Beam =), Dont even say Yache Berry >=/

sims796

April 7th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Yache Berry is a waste of a damn item.

sims:"Oh noes, it has a berry! It survived my Ice Beam!"

Enemy:Haha, now what, punk?!

sims: "Oh, I don't know, maybe this (switches to Sceptile, whose faster)

Enemy: Ha, I can switch

*Forgets about Stealth Rock*

Enemy:Crap.

Tortured_Soul

April 7th, 2008, 03:44 PM

Yeah, that was almost always the case. (OMG, u needz a steelor!!!1)

And now CSPory and Donphan will be used far less, along with Scarfgar. Shows you how over-centralised it really was...

~T_S

shedinjask

April 7th, 2008, 06:56 PM

Actually, Draggy survives most non-STAB Ice Beams. Be careful.

silver%

April 7th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Ooka

April 7th, 2008, 08:18 PM

with garchomp usually comes a sandstorm......bring a steel type....i must admit it is VERY hard to beat a stall team that covers for a garchomp but its beatable....mmm garchomp seems to scare alot of ppl. i dont intentually bring a counter but it happens sometimes and i end up getting the best of chomps...the garchomp to fear however would have to be chain chomp in my opinon..if you want to ban a garchomp its not really fair. if your gonna ban something like garchomp might as well ban all the threats that are hard to kill if you cant counter it. lets face bliss is unbeatable unless you have luck if you have no physical sweepers.i literally had to calcualte the ivs and evs for my slowbro to 2hko a bliss with 6 calm minds so in my opinon no dont ban all threats unless you ban em all

Even though your post makes basically no sense, I'll respond to it anyways. We aren't banning a "threat". We're banning a Pokemon that has no direct counters. End of story, all the arguments has been argued, and all the facts have been posted.

If you're going to try and change our minds, at least use proper grammer....

Dark_Azelf

April 7th, 2008, 08:31 PM

with garchomp usually comes a sandstorm......bring a steel type....i must admit it is VERY hard to beat a stall team that covers for a garchomp but its beatable....mmm garchomp seems to scare alot of ppl. i dont intentually bring a counter but it happens sometimes and i end up getting the best of chomps...the garchomp to fear however would have to be chain chomp in my opinon..if you want to ban a garchomp its not really fair. if your gonna ban something like garchomp might as well ban all the threats that are hard to kill if you cant counter it. lets face bliss is unbeatable unless you have luck if you have no physical sweepers.i literally had to calcualte the ivs and evs for my slowbro to 2hko a bliss with 6 calm minds so in my opinon no dont ban all threats unless you ban em all

Bliss does not over centralize the metagame and niether do other pokemon, Close Combat says hi !, basically any physical move says hi !, Blissry also does not have sandveil, and cant 2hko 99% of the metagame with its moveset set, and Blissey is not unpredictable. if you run a team without physical moves, then your foolish, its just asking you to get lol'd at by Special walls =/

Please feel free to make a thread in S&M and list ALL VIABLE reason of why Blissey or any other pokemon is "broken".

ABYAY

April 7th, 2008, 08:44 PM

yeah, Bliss is easily beatable by any stat-upper or physical fighting move. Garchomp isn't easily beaten by Ice because hello many different moves to counter those who use it. Also, with its base 106 HP, 95 defense, and 85 sp. defense, those are just really strong.

I can sense Dragonite trying to take over Chomp's job, but there's just one thing...NOT POSSIBLE! Dragonite may have better defenses (I think 95 defense and 100 sp.def), but its HP is much lower, it's much slower, and although it's unharmed by spikes, SR does 1/4 damage to the old-school dragon. Fortunately, it has a trick on its wings with the ability to Dragon Dance AND Outrage, which gives it one advantage over both of the other big dragons in the game. Of course, T-Tar could pull the BS DD Outrage through proper breeding (I think).

One thing that can help you avoid fate is Inner Focus. An example of this is when you're faced against Flinch-hax Togekiss. Also, the starting Fake Out Ambipom is useless when you don't flinch, and o look; free Dragon Dance setup! (This would be if you dared run a DD-Nite as a starter)

Anyway, I think I'm done for now. I hope this cleared up some potential gameplay changes with seeing more of the oldest dragon around.

silver%

April 7th, 2008, 11:06 PM

ehh do what you want about garchomp i dont use garchomp anyways i still dont see what is to fear..i probably shoulda picked a better EXAMPLE other than bliss but eh sometimes we all make mistakes. i still hate the fat pink blob and her overly defensive parnter~_~" but if you think about it.. in just 3 or 4 moves you could make blissey pretty much an uber if you thought about it* gets back on subject* well im not gonna defend chomp it is kinda annoying to miss a move that would pretty much kill it but i thought thats what hp ice was for and if ppl would balence and switch pokemon more properly rather than the reckless "i think i can counter with this" theory they wouldnt end up being mence meat but eh wheather we ban it or not something else is just gonna take its place and hopefully we wont end up bored and start banning treccos and rattatta....

airconditioning

April 8th, 2008, 01:25 AM

silver%

April 8th, 2008, 03:10 AM

This is the reason I was worried the Garchomp ban wouldn't work here- because of people who have no idea why Garchomp is being banned in the first place, and won't understand no matter how much you explain. Because hey, they've beaten Garchomp before! It's not too tough!

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party. chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there. its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it. sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp. theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat. Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

Anti Pop Culture Warrior

April 8th, 2008, 04:57 AM

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party.

That proves nothing. If you would please tell me one safe switch into Garchomp I would most appreciate it...but you can't. Nobody can. Exactly why it's uber. Killing Garchomp is easy, all you do is sacrifice something and revenge kill it. Problem is, that's about as good a method as there is for stopping it.

chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there.

So tell me what happens when those sashers switch into SR or a sandstorm is up? you can't stall Garchomp either, SD Life Orb Outrage 3HKOs the best defenseive steel in the game and that's forgetting that we have the ever-trusty Fire Fang at our side.

Also, Sand Veil means you ice attack could miss. If it does, you're pretty much toast. Also, the only first turn attack that can OHKO Garchomp is Ice Shard, and there isn't one Ice Shard user that can survive the switch-in :/

its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it.

I don't use it either :/ That's irrelevant anyways.

You fail to see the point - The is no wall that is a safe switch into Garchomp. PERIOD. Also, to get off a supereffective attack you have to survive its attacks, and again, there isn't a pokemon in the game that is a safe switch.

sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over

Again, how much YOU use it is irrelevant, lol. That land Shark has a very high-powered STAB move, incredible attack and very good bulky, not to mention access to SD and several threatening sets.

....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp.

I'm sorry to be rude, but this is just ridiculous. If you send out Butterfree to counter Garchomp you fail at competitive battling...either that or your team sucks. Also, thinking ahead of time isn't good enough.

theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat.

Yeah, good luck surviving the switch-in and outspeeding Garchomp to sleep it, lol. Not to mention that if by some miracle you did get off sleep Powder, it could miss.

Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

lol, before making such accusations I would learn something about battling before spurting out such hyperbole.

I support Garchomp's move to the uber tier. Mostly because there isn't a counterargument to keep it in standard play.

Ooka

April 8th, 2008, 05:04 AM

I support Garchomp's move to the uber tier. Mostly because there isn't a counterargument to keep it in standard play.

I look up to you for that post, because you just did what I'm too impatient and lazy to do ._.

silver%

April 8th, 2008, 05:41 AM

.......do what you want

dosent matter any more because everyone sides with uber chomp and it dosent affect me so i shouldnt even be defending it. and thank you for not being rude as annoying as all of that may have been but i give up w/e everyone else says goes theres no way around it. just because i seem to get around garchomps easily dosent mean everyone else can and i most not be seeing that because i so busy being stuck on a lost cause. uber chomp it is no one can get around it so it may aswell be declared now...(didnt take much to shut me up huh)

FourFourTwo

April 8th, 2008, 05:49 AM

I just want to put my 2 cents in. Even when I used to run a hail team, not too long ago, whenever I saw a garchomp, I'd get nervous. This is with me having 3-4 ice pokemon on my team, with hail up, and 2 of them with snow cloak. Now, snow cloak is just as good an ability as sand veil, but like everyone says, there isnt really a safe switch. I used to switch in my mamoswine on a garchomp (it has snow cloak), and PRAY that chomp would miss, and then ice shard it. That being said, it usually didnt miss >.>

Now, it would tear through 2 or 3 or maybe even 4 of my ICE team, before i took it down. It usually took a focus sashed frosslass in the hail to REVENGE kill it.

So I completely support this move to uber

sims796

April 8th, 2008, 12:37 PM

Seems I can now lose Dragon Claw on my Sceptile for revenge killing Chomp. Of course, not if it had Scarf, but I'd have some way to try to prepare. Looks like I can use Earthquake.

Tortured_Soul

April 8th, 2008, 03:28 PM

didnt stutter did i its not really a threat ive beaten all the chomps and have never been swept by a chomp nor never saw a chomp ko more than 2 pokemon in my party. chomp can be stoped by sashers sleepers ice atks first turn atks stalling and the list goes on i dont see the big deal on banning this pokemon because it is "has no real weaknesses" i mean i did just name like three or more there. its called a late game sweeper, a wall, a super effective attack. im defending chomp and i dont even use it. this is from the eyes of someone who battles it. sometimes it takes someone from "the outside" to look in and tell you what they see and i see no threat or possiblably unstopable pokemon. its just a land shark looking for someone to let down its guard so they can run it over....think ahead of time and its not a problem. i mean send out a butterfree on a chomp. theyre gonna laugh and say o yea im gonna ko this but neither do they no theyre the ones who are about to be stopped. wow sleep powder o look chomp cant kill you woot its no longer a threat. Its just the fear of getting swept that makes ppl want to ban a certain pokemon to increase theyre odds.

~Why Garchomp Should be Banned~

This thread has been used to discuss whether or not Garchomp should be banned from OU play. Our reasoning is that Garchomp has too few counters, and these counters are never a 100% chance. For instance, if Garchomp is in play with Sandstorm, it's evasion is increased by 20%. This means that a Choice Band Weavile using Ice Shard has a 4/5 chance of hitting Garchomp, which isn't bad, but if it misses, that is good game. Here are some calculations run by the people in Strategies and Movesets:

v ~Choice Band Garchomp~ v

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

v ~Swords Dance Garchomp~ v

Garchomp@Life Orb
16 HP / 252 ATT / 240 SPEED
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Blast

People who think switching steels into Outrages is safe, think again =/

As if the swords dance set wasnt scary enough...

The following are calcs of Life Orb Swords Danced Outrage vs Common steel types

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 43.71% - 51.50%

Max HP/Max Def Impish Skarmory

Defender HP: 338
Damage: 166 - 196
Damage: 49.11% - 57.99%

Max Hp/Max def Impish Bronzong

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 185 - 217
Damage: 45.79% - 53.71%

Max Hp/Max Def + Nature Jirachi

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 41.24% - 48.59%

Max HP / Max Def Impish/Relaxed Forretress (With SR this is a 2hko)

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 154 - 181
Damage: 42.31% - 49.73%

Max HP/Max def Impish Metagross

Defender HP: 386
Damage: 177 - 208
Damage: 45.85% - 53.89%

Max HP / Max def Bold Heatran

Non-Steels

Defender HP: 420
Damage: 329 - 387
Damage: 78.33% - 92.14%

Max Hp/max Def Impish hippowdon

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 317 - 372
Damage: 89.55% - 105.08%

Max hp / Max def Impish Gliscor

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 97.60% - 114.67%

Max hp/Max def Bold Weezing

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%

Max hp/Max def Bold Suicune

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 346 - 407
Damage: 87.82% - 103.30%

Max hp/Max def Bold Slowbro

Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%

Max HP / Max def Bold Cresselia

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 429 - 504
Damage: 108.88% - 127.92%

Max HP/Max def Impish gyarados (I didnt do bulky gyara, i did this for a laugh)

Defender HP: 384
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 84.90% - 99.74%

Max Hp/Max Def Impish Donphan

Note : These ev spreads are not normal, some of these pokemon run less def evs than this, i used Max/Max to demonstrate how nasty this set is.

The good news is that there is ONE steel that does not get 2/3hkod by a sd Outrage on this set, this is : - Max HP / Max def Steelix (31%-37%) =).

Max hp / max def Bastiodon, probopass, Aggron, even Registeel get 3hko'd with sd outrage (Some of these get 2hko's if SR is up =/)

To prove this

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 139 - 163
Damage: 38.19% - 44.78%

Max HP / max def + DEf nature Registeel.

This is what i call Broken, its most common switch ins cannot live more than 2 hits from this set. Even the ones that can, you better pray to god that you havent taken ANY damage throughout the whole battle and that SR/Spikes, are not up.

This set may also bit easy to revenge kill, but i hope you realize that if Sandstorm is up, things may be a little more difficult. Even more so that some/most of these Switch ins, DO NOT HAVE A Recovery move, so cannot come in more than once or twice.

v ~Currently Strong Arguments For Banning~ v

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU