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DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 05:23 AM
I'm not entirely sure if I exist or not, I believe I do, but I'm not quite convinced. After a long conversation with a good friend of mine, I'm now starting to see the world his way. The whole typical psychedelic "IT'S ALL FAR OUT THERE, MAN!" sort of thing. I used to be a firm believer of both science and religion, but after taking an epistemology class senior year in high school about two years ago, I started thinking much more differently.

Whenever I talk to someone or learn of a new theory, I think of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave"; where there are several men chained up in a cave, all that they can ever see are projected shadows of people walking back and foward on a bridge holding theatre props. There is a fire past those people, and as they move with the strange props, their shadows become stranger; but the point is, those shadows are all that those people know in all of existance. Then one day, one of the men is free (unknown if he breaks free or is released) is then sent to the world above, as he's climbing he sees the light to the outside. Scared of this light he wonders if he should move on, or go back to the safety of what he knows in the cave. He decides to head up, and finds there's an entire new world that he could never have perceived before.

Excited about this new find, he heads back down to the cave to tell the others. He attempts to explain to them what he saw, and they reject him. They curse him and call him insane for trying to claim that everything they know is not true, that it's merely a projection of what is really there. They deny him and hate him for attempting to claim otherwise.

Whenever trying to listen to someone, regardless of the side, I try to figure out if I'm either the man who discovered this new world, or if I'm one of the men stuck in the cave. I no longer hold science to be absolute truth, mostly in part that we're making new scientific discoveries every day. There was a time when everyone knew the earth was flat, there was a time that everyone knew we were the center of the universe, there was a time that everyone KNEW that science is infallable (now). I say to all of you, do not accept anything as truth right away, and instead take it with a grain of salt and decide if you believe in it or not.

I used to believe that for certain I exist, but am no longer sure; I could very well be a part of someone's subconcious or imagination. Maybe someone is unconcious and I play a part in their imagination at one point or another, and just for the sake of making sure I play my role, I have been given this entirely false and unreal existance. All to just make sure that this little pulse in this person's head plays out at the right time. Do I exist, do you exist?

If you have proof, offer it, if it can be doubted, even in the slightest I will not accept it as evidence. Truth is absolute, therefore there is no possibility to deny it. Show me undeniable evidence! DO I EXIST!? (Feel free to add in your own questions as well)

Avey
March 28th, 2008, 05:41 AM
If you can be and you can think, you exist. There's nothing more to say. Unless you're a robot that goes onto forums to download information.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 05:44 AM
If you can be and you can think, you exist. There's nothing more to say. Unless you're a robot that goes onto forums to download information.

Not good enough, no "I think therefore I am" copouts either. Real proof of real existance.

Avey
March 28th, 2008, 05:45 AM
Not good enough, no "I think therefore I am" copouts either. Real proof of real existance.

That is real proof and evidence, in my opinion, and seeing as you have nothing to back you up to say different other than to state what you've said I have proved that you exist.

Good day.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 05:48 AM
That is real proof and evidence, in my opinion, and seeing as you have nothing to back you up to say different other than to state what you've said I have proved that you exist.

Good day.

Nay I say to you, Cheetah in a Tophat, for even though I believe I am thinking, it is very possible for me to be not thinking, and instead is just programmed from this person's imagination. Therefore I don't exist. I said UNDENIABLE TRUTH, no shred of deniablility can enter into my mind. Truth can not be even doubted, because truth is indeed true. And I doubted your proposed theory, therefore it is not truth and you have not proven that I exist.

Good morrow.

Forever
March 28th, 2008, 05:50 AM
I used to think I didn't really exist when I was younger...

But whenever I thought of it I kept thinking where would my spirit go when I die... and if I had a previous life, why do I only remember this life as it's happening in perfect detail, yet not the previous one? Which would mean that people only have one life... and if we can't remember previous lives, living would be pointless... because we don't remember it... anyway, I kind of agree with that feeling that I'm not even real, but like, it's more as in... everyone else around me isn't real and my thoughts all will create something...

Too confusing to think about.

Jaimes
March 28th, 2008, 05:52 AM
Real proof of real existance.

Honestly, why do you think anyone actually cares?

All it seems to me is that you've brought the concept of our PMs to a deeply unecessary thread. All in a poor attempt to show off flawed philosophic drivel in order to boost credibility on a Pokemon website. It's a bit sad really...

Avey
March 28th, 2008, 05:54 AM
Nay I say to you, Cheetah in a Tophat, for even though I believe I am thinking, it is very possible for me to be not thinking, and instead is just programmed from this person's imagination. Therefore I don't exist. I said UNDENIABLE TRUTH, no shred of deniablility can enter into my mind. Truth can not be even doubted, because truth is indeed true. And I doubted your proposed theory, therefore it is not truth and you have not proven that I exist.

Good morrow.

Well, then there is nothing anyone can say to prove you exist, for every factor could just be someone's imagination making you think or do these things.

Well done. You've outsmarted a cheetah.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 05:58 AM
Well, then there is nothing anyone can say to prove you exist, for every factor could just be someone's imagination making you think or do these things.

Well done. You've outsmarted a cheetah.

I'd hope to, since I can't even come close to running to. I've had a great answer from another forum I go to that seems to win my argument. But I'll wait until someone here gets it as well.

Also a note to Jaimes: If you post in this topic, I'm afraid it's wasted energy, as I am unable to see anything you post from now on. I do apologize for the wasted potential.

Gummy
March 28th, 2008, 06:01 AM
Seriously, why must people seek such complex knowledge? As you said in your first post, science has made the simple things in our universe more complicated, so why are you trying to complicate things even more? This can't be proved scientifically or religiously (after all, we are at the mercy of the gods) so just drop it.

Avey
March 28th, 2008, 06:01 AM
I'd hope to, since I can't even come close to running to. I've had a great answer from another forum I go to that seems to win my argument. But I'll wait until someone here gets it as well.

Also a note to Jaimes: If you post in this topic, I'm afraid it's wasted energy, as I am unable to see anything you post from now on. I do apologize for the wasted potential.

Then I insist that you take Jaimes off your ignore list.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 06:06 AM
Seriously, why must people seek such complex knowledge? As you said in your first post, science has made the simple things in our universe more complicated, so why are you trying to complicate things even more? This can't be proved scientifically or religiously (after all, we are at the mercy of the gods) so just drop it.

For mere friction, to get people to scramble and think differently. Realizing they may need to hold their guard up for what they don't even see is there. People like to stay in this realm so much, they completely shut off their minds to the possibility of another. Many children hear stories of mystical battles between good and evil, stereotypically involving knights, dragons, and old witches with potions. When children find out that the possibility of the existance of dragons and magick is nigh impossible, they become upset, and grow up to shut it out one way or another. One decided to change the name of 'dragon' to 'dinosaur', to benefit the scientific community, and to help people become more secure in this realm. Another changed the word from 'potion' to 'medicine' because they expected magick to work in the exact same way as in the stories.

They believe that realm doesn't exist, and some (like myself) are starting to doubt the existance of this realm. Simplicity through complication.

Then I insist that you take Jaimes off your ignore list.

And I'm disinclined to asquiesce your request. Also to make it much more fairerest, I will make the suggestion to him to add me to his ignore list. In the interest of fairerness.

Avey
March 28th, 2008, 06:20 AM
And I'm disinclined to asquiesce your request. Also to make it much more fairerest, I will make the suggestion to him to add me to his ignore list. In the interest of fairerness.

And I disagree. He did nothing to you except for debate and beat you while he was at it. Stop acting like an idiot and take him off. Now.

Virtual Chatot
March 28th, 2008, 06:33 AM
The Greeks said that something is alive if it fears its own death.
How do you define existence? How do you define your own existence?

We would not know anything about our existence if it wasn't for our sensory organs, which send electrochemical signals to our brain telling us whether something is hot or cold, solid or liquid.

A simple way to prove your existence is to study your relationships with other people. Relationships themselves prove that you are making a connection with another being of consciousness. If this reality, and by default our existence, does not truly exist, those connections mean nothing and there are no consequences for actions.

But I have to ask, why ask nonexistent beings such as ourselves such a question? If you only exist in consciousness, and we are only pawns of that, why ask us?

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 06:37 AM
But I have to ask, why ask nonexistent beings such as ourselves such a question? If you only exist in consciousness, and we are only pawns of that, why ask us?

Good point, and one that hit me only moments before your post.

Chibi-chan
March 28th, 2008, 06:48 AM
My good friend James Matthews helped me out with this. I believe his statements are true. It makes perfect sense if it's not tl;dr for you. And if it is, I suggest you don't participate in this thread.

Since Descartes’ brain-in-a-vat analogy, people have pondered whether they really exist. Even in today’s modern times, movies like ‘The Matrix’ exemplify the modern paradigm of Descartes’ example. So can we prove we exist? In this paper, I hope to show that we can, but not the context we exist within. I will use the example of ‘The Matrix’ to not only show that a theoretical Matrix could deceive us, but also a more plausible and finite Matrix.

Descartes’ ‘cognito ergo sum’ (‘I think therefore I am’) is a perfectly valid method of proving we exist. The fact that we are thinking about our existence proves we exist! Unfortunately, this is as far as Descartes and myself agree - he uses this argument to corroborate the idea that the mind can exist without the body. Yet how can a non-physical entity think? I firmly believe that the act of thinking is a physical process - sensory information (or other events) triggers neurons to fire within the brain that in turn excites various other areas and causes chemical reactions that consequentially affects what we think and feel. Therefore, an entity that does not physically exist cannot think.

Dualism complicates matters by creating a double meaning for ‘am’ (and any other word related to the person or being). There is the physical meaning of ‘am’, existing within the physical world. Then there is the more abstract meaning of ‘am’ - one’s personality, one’s being and (dare I say it) one’s soul. Therefore, I may be taking Descartes’ meaning of ‘am’ out of context by using it as a combination of both the physical and the mental (since the mental is physical).

The problem that surfaces here is the degree of physicality that has to be associated with ‘being’ (or am-ness). How much of our physical body must be intact to consider us being. Our current Matrix example is safe, since the body is kept intact. Yet, the brain-in-a-vat example is different. Since we are merely a brain in a jar of preservatives being fed information do we exist?

Yes - our physicality is important but not necessary. Needless to say, our brain is part of our physical being therefore we must have the brain as part of that ‘minimal body’. The rest of our body is used by the brain to solve it’s own shortcomings - to keep itself alive (heart and lungs for oxygen and blood), to gain data from the outside world (eyes, ears and tactile sensors) and to use its physical extensions (arms, legs and fingers) to move and influence its surroundings.

To summarize: “I think, therefore I am” has to interpreted from the standpoint that ‘being’ consists our physical location and our mental processes. Our mental processes are in turn a physical process in our brain; therefore if reductionism must be applied to this concept, then the brain (along with anything necessary to keep it alive - although this could be artificial) is all that is necessary to ‘be’. Therefore, the mere act of thinking is sufficient to prove that brain processes are occurring, thus one exists!

It is the context in which we exist in that is impossible to determine. The brain-in-a-vat, God as a benevolent deceiver, evil genius and ‘The Matrix’ analogies are all instantiations of the same problem that I will call the problem of contextual existence. While we can tell that we exist, quite where we exist and whether our reality is the real reality is something we will never been able to prove due to the inherent limitations our body and brain suppose upon us. It is analogous to us trying to think in four (or any number above 3) dimensions - it is completely unthinkable! Let us look more precisely at our example - The Matrix.

Given infinite knowledge (or infinite computing power in our case) it is quite impossible to definitively prove that you are existing in the now as you understand it (I am writing an essay at my desk on my computer while listening to music) or whether I am being harvested in a massive “human field” for my bioelectric energy and I am being fed information via an interface plugged into my head and spine!

As far-fetched as it may be, it is theoretically possible (especially if the year is 2301, I only believe it is 2001) and irrefutable. It does lead to a pressing question - is this existence I am supporting really existence in the philosophical sense? The main argument against this contextual existence is that we lack free will that marks our physical existence as ‘being’. I would argue that our free will is preserved, since it is a ‘black box’ situation - input is fed in from the computers, our brain makes the decisions and those decisions are mapped on to an output that the computer interprets and subsequently alters our ‘reality.’

Let us go back on our original given that we had infinite computing power and made it more realistic - finite computing power; would the thesis still hold? Finite computing power means that the world our minds exist in turns from a replica into a simulation - a finite representation of an infinite reality. Glitches are bound to occur (such as deja-vu in The Matrix) so couldn’t we tell that our reality was a farce? Of course not, we would know no difference - the computer could make chicken taste like oranges yet we would still think it tasted like chicken.

To conclude, can I prove I exist? Yes, I am writing an essay on the topic that essentially proves I exist! The mere process of thinking proves one’s existence. Descartes proved this (albeit unintentionally, using my interpretation) using his famous “I think therefore I am”. Yet, thinking does not (and will not) prove the reality (or context) in which they are thinking. It is an impossible feat to prove that our reality is the real one and no Matrix, benevolent deceiver nor evil genius is controlling it.

♣Gawain♣
March 28th, 2008, 06:57 AM
Logic man! If you don't exist, no one should've created this thread! This thread is very weird.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 06:59 AM
Chibi, I definitally think you were in the right direction, but the wrong track. It unfortunately relies too much on physicality and "being" rather than focusing on existance. I understand what you are saying, but regretably, it isn't close to convincing me. But there was something Descartes said (that the other person on the other forum brought up) that helped me. I do truly appreciate the response, though.

Logic man! If you don't exist, no one should've created this thread! This thread is very weird.

But what makes our logic or comprehension of it (for that matter) the highest and infallable?

Chibi-chan
March 28th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Chibi, I definitally think you were in the right direction, but the wrong track.

So is there a right answer to this?
I can't really make you believe anything.

Zet
March 28th, 2008, 07:06 AM
Memories, memories is the key word to existence. Memories is what makes people who they are, if we were part of someone's imagination they would have to create every single entity's memory, but that would take more then a life time to do, so therefore we exist due to memories

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 07:09 AM
Memories, memories is the key word to existence. Memories is what makes people who they are, if we were part of someone's imagination they would have to create every single entity's memory, but that would take more then a life time to do, so therefore we exist due to memories

Ooh, I like that theory. Though, it is possible, for the mind to be so immensely powerful to make up false backrounds (as Chibi paritally brought up).

Cassino
March 28th, 2008, 07:10 AM
If someone imagined it, this world would be a lot more interesting.
Someone could have a dream that a woman gives birth to an octopus, so if life is a dream, I see no reason that couldn't happen.

Pure imagination does not follow logic, reality does; nor does it hold truth, thus in theory we could never prove to you that anything is real.

Zet
March 28th, 2008, 07:12 AM
forgot to mention, just one memory for a person to make they would be dead before they could make another memory unless they are short lives:P but yeah i like this thread so far, questioning existence

Ryoutarou
March 28th, 2008, 07:14 AM
Memories, memories is the key word to existence. Memories is what makes people who they are, if we were part of someone's imagination they would have to create every single entity's memory, but that would take more then a life time to do, so therefore we exist due to memoriesNot necessarily. You can remember certain events, but can you remember what's in between that? If your birthday is on August 23rd, you can remember pretty much everything about that date, but can you remember what you were doing 42 days before that if nothing special happened? Where did that time go? Was it lived if you can't actually recall it? If someone were to actually program memories, they wouldn't need to make a life time, just a handful of events. Birthdays, dates, weddings, funerals, sports outings, academic events, you can probably grab a list of what would be considered major life events and cater them to certain personality types.

Of course our reality is probably some speck on a tiny flower being protected by some giant elephant. Or not. We'll never know.

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 07:16 AM
If someone imagined it, this world would be a lot more interesting.
Someone could have a dream that a woman gives birth to an octopus, so if life is a dream, I see no reason that couldn't happen.

Pure imagination does not follow logic, reality does; nor does it hold truth, thus in theory we could never prove to you that anything is real.

Good concept, but not everyone is able to exactly control their imagination (or if you'd like, exchange that word for "dreams") very easily. And it is possible that this world that we percieve as "real" (which very possible is non-existential) is indeed all part of a fantasy world, and the real world is much more boring than this. Everything here we can't see as being all that glamourous because we're consistantly exposed to it, very rarely does anything truly "new" or "original" come up. But either way, it's still the point of it's all possibly false, and we don't need something "out of the blue" to show that we're not existant.

And, isn't imagination a sort of reality? So, does it, or does it not, follow logic?

Not necessarily. You can remember certain events, but can you remember what's in between that? If your birthday is on August 23rd, you can remember pretty much everything about that date, but can you remember what you were doing 42 days before that if nothing special happened? Where did that time go? Was it lived if you can't actually recall it? If someone were to actually program memories, they wouldn't need to make a life time, just a handful of events. Birthdays, dates, weddings, funerals, sports outings, academic events, you can probably grab a list of what would be considered major life events and cater them to certain personality types.

Of course our reality is probably some speck on a tiny flower being protected by some giant elephant. Or not. We'll never know.

You can talk to the elephant, too? Nah, but in all reality (rimshot), memories aren't all that reliable, as you've stated. Also, what of those memories that we have, but have never happened. Like when someone makes the error "Man, that baseball game last Saturday was fun" but it was actually a memory from several years ago, or it's possible, not even that, it could've been a dream their brain processed as memory. Either way, it's nothing close to being able to provide evidence of existance.

Zet
March 28th, 2008, 07:19 AM
If this world(existence) was created by something(anything is possible to create something), it was a terrible choice to make it so boring

DavyJones4our
March 28th, 2008, 07:22 AM
If this world(existence) was created by something(anything is possible to create something), it was a terrible choice to make it so boring

But that's just it, we only see it as boring because it's nothing out of the typical for us, our perception is same-old; while it's nothing new for us, it's exciting and pure fantasy for it's creator.

Virtual Chatot
March 28th, 2008, 07:29 AM
What defines you, as a person and conscious entity, is your past experiences molding your mind into your characteristics, habits, and a thinking pattern.

False Memories wouldn't mold your being, so you would feel very out of place if you had some.

If this world(existence) was created by something(anything is possible to create something), it was a terrible choice to make it so boring
This reality is only boring if you do the same thing over and over, or you are choosing to make it boring. Mixing it up a little will make it not to be so boring.

Cassino
March 28th, 2008, 08:09 AM
Good concept, but not everyone is able to exactly control their imagination (or if you'd like, exchange that word for "dreams") very easily. And it is possible that this world that we percieve as "real" (which very possible is non-existential) is indeed all part of a fantasy world, and the real world is much more boring than this. Everything here we can't see as being all that glamourous because we're consistantly exposed to it, very rarely does anything truly "new" or "original" come up. But either way, it's still the point of it's all possibly false, and we don't need something "out of the blue" to show that we're not existant.

And, isn't imagination a sort of reality? So, does it, or does it not, follow logic?
Imagination can be made to follow logic, but it isn't required to.
Pure imagination as I mentioned, would come up with completely original and unheard of things.

Anyway, the main point: Even if this world is made up, it's still your reality as you are stuck in it with only death to part from it.

Richard Lynch
March 28th, 2008, 08:28 AM
Do you exist? Hmmm... let me think for a secondYES. You do.

Scientific proof? You're made of matter. Matter exists. We can see it, touch it (although touching you is way down on my list of things to do; prolly down past lighting my own house on fire), and record it.

Plato's cave idea is really only for concepts; that which can't be recorded or measured. If a rock is outside of that cave, yet you can't see it, does it exist? Well... yeah. Just 'cause you can't see it doesn't mean it vanished. Going by the way you seem to be taking it, it can be said that everything not in your line of sight or peripheral vision does not exist. Not exactly scientific, if you ask me.

The Earth being flat was a theory. We couldn't really see it. We had to assume based on what we could see. But now we can... so unless there's some optical illusion caused by the bending of light or space-time, it's basically a fact.

Ah, but what about schizophrenia, I hear some of you cry. Where someone sees something that isn't really there. Or a mirage in the desert, hallucinations, etc. And I have no real answer for you on that one... other than the fact that what one sees under these conditions is not made up of matter.

So really, the entire idea of this existence stuff is shot down with the idea of matter. If something is made up of stuff, it probably exists. The ONLY exception to this is the [documented] idea that a photon (what makes up light) has a mass of about 0.0kg, and that's often messed with me. But light is still in theory in the scientific community, so we've got time.

So, in conclusion: yes, you do exist. No way to argue against it, scientifically.

Captain Arcane
March 28th, 2008, 10:07 AM
Listen, there are many forms of "existence"

First off, don't be dumb, of course you exist on earth, as a human being. Your not some astral ghost on the internet.

Second, Like I said before, there are many forms of existence. For one, you've come on the pokecommunity, and have created a profile, therefore you also exist on the pokemon community. But if you did not create a profile on, lets say...serebii, then you would not exist on serebii.

And I wanna say it again, you "DO" exist. And if you can't except that, then you probably do not want to exist.....

Jaimes
March 28th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Do you exist? Hmmm... let me think for a secondYES. You do.

Scientific proof? You're made of matter. Matter exists. We can see it, touch it (although touching you is way down on my list of things to do; prolly down past lighting my own house on fire), and record it.


Dude, thankyou. This is essentially what I would have said if I wasn't on his ignore list XD

If you ran the word 'proof' through a dictionary website (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof?r=75). The first definition is "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth". The keyword being evidence.

There is already evidence of occurence - that something has posted a long-winded silly thread...
There is observational evidence- such as evidence of a linked myspace account in his profile.
And theoretical evidence- if he wasn't real, who in their right mind would waste their time programming a supercomputer to behave in such a manner? and why?

However I'd also like to point out somethings he said in some PMs.
1) "Science is not truth, science is only another way to help us cope and believe that we understand, just like typical religion." ~ science is not a matter of belief.... nor is it a bundle of falsehoods.
2) "You use a dictionary, a bible of the Science of English Diction." ~ cool. So dictionary definitions are flawed as well. TAKE THAT ENGLISH LANGUAGE

And no I'm not going to add him to my ignore list as a way of being 'fair'. That's ludicrous..that way I couldn't respond and pwn.

Scales
March 28th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Davy Jones why do you wish to know if you exist or not? People build their existence with their actions. If you are just a figment in someone's imagination then so what. The imagination still exists. Why do you think that the person thinking you up isn't just a figment in some other beings imagination? Or maybe your thinking of a cartoon character. Well maybe that cartoon character is also thinking the same thing. "Hey maybe I don't exist and someone is thinking up what I am doing"

Anyway this sort of topic is way to complicated for mere mortals to decipher. You would need to think on it for a long time to truly prove without a shadow of a doubt that you do or don't exist

sims796
March 28th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Listen, there are many forms of "existence"

First off, don't be dumb, of course you exist on earth, as a human being. Your not some astral ghost on the internet.

Second, Like I said before, there are many forms of existence. For one, you've come on the pokecommunity, and have created a profile, therefore you also exist on the pokemon community. But if you did not create a profile on, lets say...serebii, then you would not exist on serebii.

And I wanna say it again, you "DO" exist. And if you can't except that, then you probably do not want to exist.....

That's awfully rude. Regardless, you just made a huge pointless loop of things that doesn't make much sense. Many forms of existances? What would it take to actually please you? Regardless, which form of existance are you talking about?

You're making up questions that are rather irrational, and doesn't include much logic oter than "if a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?" I would think so, if it made a sound when I'm near, I don't see why it wouldn't otherwise. If we exist as part of some divine loser wo has nothing better to do than think of us, then we exist on that plane, regardless. The way I see it, if you doubt your existance so muc, go cut your hand. When you see blood, and feel pain, that should answer your question. Not that I'm condoning cutting, those types of people annoy me.

El Gofre
March 28th, 2008, 02:33 PM
I doubt this will ever be answered, as existance is interperated differently by everyone. I class existance as something that can initiate a reaction in any of the 5 senses, I can see me, hear me, smell me, touch me (Hahaha i touch myself :P) and taste me. I can see the stars, hear the wind, feel gravity, you get the idea. Your definition of existance will differ to mine, but in my opinion, yes you exist.

Waffle-San
March 28th, 2008, 02:58 PM
Some people don't seem to get the question. When your on a RP or writing a story you've created characters, places, people and a reality for that story. At the same time you don't imagine every event of every person. Not to say that's impossible. So using science as an example doesn't really work, as that could also be a creation of the well "creator"

The problem with the, "then why don't women give birth to octopi" theory is also shortlived because the person or thing that's thought us up could live in a world where woman do give birth to octopus, so the idea of people giving birth to people could be a wild idea and pure fantasy to them.

Now I do believe we exist, even if only figurativly. Now the ability to think could be proof enough for some people but I'm going to say we do because, in a way, everything exists.
LEts use your example of Dragons. Now there isn't really any scientifical proof that they existed, of course there's also no real proof saying they didn't except that we havn't found any evidence. Okay I'm getting off topic.
The point is, I believe Dragon's exist, and just the fact that we can look at pictures of them or speak of them and people will know what we're talking about proves they exist. Maybe we can't touch one but they still exist in our mind. An oooglyrara might not exist to you but maybe in my mind its some extravagant creature I dream of.
Our existance or life might jsut be a series of stories and mind within eachother but to someone or something, we do exist.
It's like when someone insults your favourite anime character, they don't exist in our physical world but you'll still defend them. Why? Because to you they're real and a part of your life.


And plus your actions still effect other people, and even if I don't "exist" in the eyes of my friends or the people around me, I do. So I might as well act like I do and play along.


Well there's my streched out 2 cents.

Ausaudriel
March 28th, 2008, 03:09 PM
How can you doubt your own existence if that existence doesn't "exist" in the first place? How do you doubt that which doesn't exist to doubt?

The very fact that you're asking this question, to me, is enough to verify "existence". At the same time, I think it's something too broad to define. Getting too caught up in definitions makes things difficult, because it depends on how you yourself define things, and that again loops right back to "do I exist to define things in the first place?"

I dunno, I'm certainly no philosopher, just thinking.

Spaekle Oddberry
March 28th, 2008, 03:10 PM
THE AVERAGE DEBATE THREAD ON PC:

- Someone poses a question that could probably be debated at length (and probably has been several times in the past)
- Random people add in random bits of 'two cents'
- A handful of smart people (including but not limited to: Jaimes, sims796, Heatran, and probably some other people too) come on with posts that could and should basically end the thread but don't for some reason
- It becomes more and more glaringly obvious that OP has no clue what the hell he's talking about
- Debate starts to go in circles between the people who do know what they're talking about and the people who don't realize that by trying to prove their point they're just making themselves look more stupid
- Eventually everyone just gets tired of it and the thread gets locked.

I don't see any way this can be debated any more than it already has been. :\ You exist. You have influence on your surroundings and on other people. Other people acknowledge your existence. Just throwing out "well how do you PROOOOOOVE IT? :O" logic is going to keep this thread going for a lot longer than it needs to, and it probably already has. :|

Ausaudriel
March 28th, 2008, 03:17 PM
THE AVERAGE DEBATE THREAD ON PC:

- Someone poses a question that could probably be debated at length (and probably has been several times in the past)
- Random people add in random bits of 'two cents'
- A handful of smart people (including but not limited to: Jaimes, sims796, Heatran, and probably some other people too) come on with posts that could and should basically end the thread but don't for some reason
- It becomes more and more glaringly obvious that OP has no clue what the hell he's talking about
- Debate starts to go in circles between the people who do know what they're talking about and the people who don't realize that by trying to prove their point they're just making themselves look more stupid
- Eventually everyone just gets tired of it and the thread gets locked.

I don't see any way this can be debated any more than it already has been. :\ You exist. You have influence on your surroundings and on other people. Other people acknowledge your existence. Just throwing out "well how do you PROOOOOOVE IT? :O" logic is going to keep this thread going for a lot longer than it needs to, and it probably already has. :|
So you'd like everyone to stop having an opinion just because two or three people posted something YOU agree with? That makes a lot of sense.

If it spurs discussion why does it matter if it "goes on longer than it should"? It's not like this is a philosophy classroom in a college, it's a thread on a Pokemon forum. I doubt ANYONE expected a serious debate to happen here.

Smarties-chan
March 30th, 2008, 12:39 AM
It seems nothing can make you believe we exist, but allow me to ask you one thing: does it really matter to begin with? Even if our lives don't exist and are just figments of someone's imagination, we would still live under the illusion that we have our own free will. If we feel like we exist, how is it different from actually existing? Why ponder about things we'll never find the answer to instead of just enjoying life? Whether or not we truly exist doesn't matter as long as it feels like we do. Nerevarine's post summed up everything else I was going to say.

♥vampy©valentine♥
March 31st, 2008, 11:58 PM
its impossible to prove that you exist. you must define many,many things, like the word exist. Someone might think that if we are living in a state of altered connousis (sp?) is not "existing" becuase what we think is "existing" isn't, while another person will say it is because you would have to "exist" to be in the altered state .... it doesn't matter anyway because even when we die we will not find the answer

Tapioca
April 1st, 2008, 12:22 AM
[/Didn't read what you wrote]
^That's a LIE. I read a paragraph and then skimmed.

Slap yourself in the face. CHECKLIST:
Did you hit something?
Did you feel it?
Did it HURT?

If yes to one or more of these, you're there, good friend :>
This is our reality whether you know how to deal with it or not.

♥vampy©valentine♥
April 1st, 2008, 01:33 AM
that doesn't prove anything. if you cross your first two fingers and then feel your nose( if done right you will feel two noses ) if we apply your theory to it then it must mean you do have two noses.

and its not reality its what we percive as reality.

sims796
April 1st, 2008, 03:29 AM
that doesn't prove anything. if you cross your first two fingers and then feel your nose( if done right you will feel two noses ) if we apply your theory to it then it must mean you do have two noses.

and its not reality its what we percive as reality.

Then it's reality enough. For some, such as me, reality is something that can be proven, being made of mass. Pain is one way to prove of that reality. This seems to all be relative.

That example you gave is only half true. What you are feeling is a finger. That's taking what she said out of context somewhat.

♥vampy©valentine♥
April 1st, 2008, 03:41 AM
Then it's reality enough. For some, such as me, reality is something that can be proven, being made of mass. Pain is one way to prove of that reality. This seems to all be relative.

That example you gave is only half true. What you are feeling is a finger. That's taking what she said out of context somewhat.

actually its not feeling your finger what happens when you cross your fingers is that you trick your brain. you see your brain is use to feeling stuff with your fingers in a certain order crossing your fingers changes the order and yeah
you might not see a connection but i do (but isee connections in a lot of stuff) she was talking about using your sences to prove you exist (you did too) and i said that becuase it shows how easy it is to trick our sences, and if your able to trick your sences that easily then why cant someone/thing trick us into to thinking we exist in this world.

sims796
April 1st, 2008, 03:52 AM
actually its not feeling your finger what happens when you cross your fingers is that you trick your brain. you see your brain is use to feeling stuff with your fingers in a certain order crossing your fingers changes the order and yeah
you might not see a connection but i do (but i see connections in a lot of stuff) she was talking about using your senses to prove you exist (you did too) and i said that becuase it shows how easy it is to trick our senses, and if your able to trick your sences that easily then why cant someone/thing trick us into to thinking we exist in this world.

Not entirely. My point was we are all made up of things that can be proven. Within different sensations. If you don't exist, you shouldn't feel anything to begin with. In fact, fade away. What exist and what doesn't can be proven with fact. We don't simply "not exist" due to some perceptions of "what if". "What if" there are other realities, and "what if" we are in a dream. For God's sake, "what if" that person imagined our entire memories!

♥vampy©valentine♥
April 1st, 2008, 04:18 AM
but if we didn't say what ifs we wouldn't know many things we do. and i never said we dont exist i said you cannot prove it because there many definitions of many things. ok take this example. what if ( yeah i know i used it xD) that we are dead. and we are "replaying" our lives(i actually know of a true story of a man that got into a car crash and instead of his life flashing before his life it fully replayed his childhood he then woke up. he was out cold for at most 15 mins but he had felt like he had gone 15 years) do you define reliveing your life as existing? i wouldn't really, yes we exist but not how we think we do

sims796
April 1st, 2008, 04:24 AM
But we exist. I agree with Smarties whole heartedly. We cannot prove these notions and proposals. What if there is a giant jelly bean in the sky that crapped us all out of it's sweet posterior. Can we possibly porve that? Now, I'm religious, but it is pointless trying to prove such a thing happend, since we don't even have a way to prove it. This is more of a "head in the clouds" kind of thing.

Tapioca
April 1st, 2008, 05:24 AM
that doesn't prove anything. if you cross your first two fingers and then feel your nose( if done right you will feel two noses ) if we apply your theory to it then it must mean you do have two noses.

and its not reality its what we percive as reality.

But is there two noses actually there?

If you wanna think that what you believe is there(crossing your fingers and making believe), have fun. That's horribly immature. Reminds me of a Disney movie or something. You pretty much helped to prove my case on that one >>

Yeah, but it's OUR reality. What exactly IS it that we perceive is it's not reality OR US. What may be reality for others might not be for us.

LethalTexture
April 1st, 2008, 05:29 AM
If we think of this in the context of what Chibi was talking about on the previous page, which ties in with the Matrix, then to borrow a quiote from the film:

"What is real? How would you define 'real'? If you're talking about what you can feel, what you can smell, what you can taste and see, then real is simply, electrical signals interpreted by your brain."

Simply put, just because you can touch, smell, taste and see something, doesn't mean that it necessarily exists. But your brain is interpreting these signals which means that your brain must exist. And another theory touched on by the film, is that your mind (in this case, brain) cannot survive without the body, and vise versa. Therefore, your body is a carrier for your brain that helps it survive. You could even go to the extent that your brain is a carrier for your mind, (in that the mind cannot survive without the brain, and vise versa) which interprets the signals. Thus, what defines your existence is the ability for your mind to interpret the signals that the things which exist in the world we live in give off, not your physical organic entity.

Thus, there is a chain. The mind depends on the brain, and the brain depends on the body. This also works in reverse. So, when you die (which I would define as when your body can no longer function to a sufficient level) your brain stops working, your mind ceases to feel. And when you can no longer feel, you cannot exist.

In conclusion, everything else in the world may not exist, but your mind definitely does for it to be able to interpret the signals. Your mind is a part of who you are, therefore you exist.

JX Valentine
April 1st, 2008, 06:21 AM
THE AVERAGE DEBATE THREAD ON PC:

- Someone poses a question that could probably be debated at length (and probably has been several times in the past)
- Random people add in random bits of 'two cents'
- A handful of smart people (including but not limited to: Jaimes, sims796, Heatran, and probably some other people too) come on with posts that could and should basically end the thread but don't for some reason
- It becomes more and more glaringly obvious that OP has no clue what the hell he's talking about
- Debate starts to go in circles between the people who do know what they're talking about and the people who don't realize that by trying to prove their point they're just making themselves look more stupid
- Eventually everyone just gets tired of it and the thread gets locked.

- And occasionally, Jax comes in to offer a semi-relevant reference to The Hitchhiker's Guide.

For example:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."

"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It proves you exist, and so therefore, you don't. Q.E.D."

"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing.

What I mean to say is that the more you try to prove that you don't exist, the more you prove that you do. Basically, the logic behind this is that in order to prove that you don't exist, you need to first define the term "reality" and attempt to apply it to yourself. While there may be a possibility that a figment of one's own imagination is capable of doing this (see Stranger Than Fiction), a figment most likely would most likely say "yes" on an egocentric level to all of the questions one poses to define whether or not the term "reality" applies to himself. That is, for example, if you perceive, then you lie on a plane of existence where it is possible to detect the world around you with all five senses. If you did not lie on such a plane of existence, then you would not be able to perceive with all five senses, as the plane would logically be a plane of nonexistence, where it should not be possible to exist in the first place.

So, on an egocentric view, you exist because you asked this question. You were able to vocalize it and perceive the letters and words that create it. It's not a Descartian philosophy so much as the logical result of existing. On my egocentric view, it's completely possible that I could be hallucinating this entire thread, but on the other hand, I would then have to ask myself why I just spent a half an hour perceiving that I wasted my time posting on a nonexistent thread. Logically, if you didn't exist, then there would be no thread, so if I hit the submit button, then I should arrive at an error message because I attempted to type a reply to something that doesn't exist, ignoring the fact that I should not be perceiving this text box in the first place.

Hopefully, that would make enough sense, although I could just be BSing this entire thing.

TekoMuto
April 1st, 2008, 01:12 PM
as far as i know, only this thread is the proof that you exist. i know nothing about you nor even who you are. I know only that this thread exists becuase of you and not what is in it (cuase i didn't feel like reading all of it.) you exist yes, atleast to me, as the creator as this thread and thats it. good day

txteclipse
April 1st, 2008, 05:25 PM
You have to ask yourself: do rocks exist? If all humans and animals and plants suddenly disappeared, would the rocks still exist? There would be no one to think about them, but would they still be real? I say yes. Even more so, I know that you exist. I'm actually here, and can think, and I have determined that you exist. Even if I didn't exist, you would continue to exist.

Therefore, you are not a figment of my imagination, nor am I a figment of yours, as the above reasoning applies in the reverse direction.

Anyways, there's a movie you need to see...it's called "Flatland". It's kind of like the story you mentioned in your first post. It's a tad juvenile, but it gets you thinking.

XxZer0xX
April 1st, 2008, 05:28 PM
Reality's what you make of it. If you don't think you exist then don't. It doesn't mean you don't other than to yourself.

Zanacross
April 1st, 2008, 05:39 PM
When you prove I exist is when I can prove you exist

score_under
April 3rd, 2008, 03:41 PM
Existence is what you define it as.
[far-fetched-example]
You could say things like mutated glowing alien frogs "exist" in your dreams.
Or, you could say they don't exist.
[/far-fetched-example]
*Darn, they really need to add code for that tag!*
Anyway, since you can sense and are aware of it, you must, by common definition, exist (at least in this world. And the term "exist" does not apply to that, because it is what defines existence).

I hope I didn't lose you there.

Spinor
April 6th, 2008, 08:16 AM
No you're not telling the truth, everyone is lying, we are all just a figment of someones imagination and programmed to keep you alive and conscious till death. zabapodot!

Jk. Virtually, this thread has already been proved. You don't exist to those who haven't seen you, but you exist. You exist to those that know you. and have seen you, but later forget your existence unless their memory is one of the most worthwhile. As long as you exist to yourself YOU EXIST. If you say you don't exist. You don't exist. Everyone is themself's king. Their word about themself is law. You don't know if you exist? then you are in the dawn of not existing. thus putting all science and religion's perception of truth and riched for a better life in the brisk of disappearing. We are all your knights, trying to pursuade you into reality of your kingdom. As at the same time, you are all my knights and we are all Michael Jackson's knights! Even Hitler's once. But they we're worthless kings by horrible fame, fall, and not yet but, declaring non-existance. That's what makes a worthless king. Not to be mentioned by others. Once you say you're sure you exist, you exist, your word is law. But it's your choice, you ARE the king.





But is there two noses actually there?

If you wanna think that what you believe is there(crossing your fingers and making believe), have fun. That's horribly immature. Reminds me of a Disney movie or something. You pretty much helped to prove my case on that one >>


You've said a mouthful. Completely immature like a Disney movie. I wish Walt Disney's existance wasn't worth the knight's attention so those immature things. I mean, They made talking rats, I predicted now they would do talking scrap and they did! My word is law and for existance, those movies shouldn't be worth recognizing.

st.jimmy
April 6th, 2008, 08:20 AM
if you dont exist than you were naver born........im guessing you were born.

Razer Rage
April 6th, 2008, 03:00 PM
I think, therefore I am. This is no simple term. It proves that you exist. If you can form an intelligent thought, then that thought exists. If that thought exists, then so does it's maker. If you have a right to think, then you have a right to live, a right to exist.

I have never seen you, nor have I heard you speak. But that doesn't mean you do not exist, just because I don't know you are there.

It's really simple. If you can think, then you exist. If you can't think, then you're brain dead.

I could go on and on, but I'm not going to. I'm not in the mood right now to make an extremely long post. But please, reply. I will not end my argument here, even if I am ending my post now.

sims796
April 6th, 2008, 03:24 PM
I think, therefore I am. This is no simple term. It proves that you exist. If you can form an intelligent thought, then that thought exists. If that thought exists, then so does it's maker. If you have a right to think, then you have a right to live, a right to exist.

I have never seen you, nor have I heard you speak. But that doesn't mean you do not exist, just because I don't know you are there.

It's really simple. If you can think, then you exist. If you can't think, then you're brain dead.

I could go on and on, but I'm not going to. I'm not in the mood right now to make an extremely long post. But please, reply. I will not end my argument here, even if I am ending my post now.

I agree with what you are saying, but I don't really agree wholeheartedly with the term. That last sentence is what got to me. Unless I missed what you said, and I most likely did, thinking alone isn't what makes a person exist. What if the person is brain dead? He no longer exist? Or, how bout inanimate objects? They no longer exist, because they are incapable of thinking?

Unless I'm just misinterpreting what you are saying.

Jaimes
April 6th, 2008, 03:40 PM
Why is this thread still going on..? It's rather apparent that the OP is too lazy (or embarrassed) to respond to a countless number of reasonable points and plain common sense. ¬_¬

Razer Rage
April 6th, 2008, 03:50 PM
@Jaimes: There's no need for that.

@sims796: In a way, yes. They do not exist in the sense that they have a state of self-conscious being. But they are still there, even if they don't know it. So no, just because they can't think, it doesn't mean they can not exist.

TurtleKing
April 6th, 2008, 04:04 PM
If you can ponder the fact that you think you don't exist, then you do exist.

Dunlop
April 6th, 2008, 04:55 PM
this whole discussion makes me think of the movie fight club...the main character is a psychiatrist. (a person who imagines a person without knowing that its just his imagination)
I am jealous of these people....they have these cool imaginations and I'm stuck with my so called
"normal" life.

if you don't exist then why do us humans have all of these unique ability's? the ability
to feel sad when someone dies, the ability to feel happy when your out with your friends, the ability to feel angry when your little brother erases your file on pokemon. (lol) so don't ask questions like that even if you are a figment of someones imagination get on with your life and enjoy it for what it is.

pm_41
April 6th, 2008, 05:27 PM
if you posted here (which you did), you exist.

'nuff said

TurtleKing
April 7th, 2008, 11:52 AM
if you posted here (which you did), you exist.

'nuff said

Exactly what I'm saying dude. XD :0

bruom
April 8th, 2008, 02:16 PM
hey people, all this discussion will probably going and going and going... until a mod decides to close the thread.

the truly concept of what is real, and isnt, waht exist and what doesn't exist is abstract. theres no way of telling if something is really true. our concept of reality changes. many people belive in science. many in religion. many doesnt belive that something exists. theres no way to prove that, until someone give us a real proof.

my concept of what exists: if you think on something it exists. think with me: it exists, only at your mind, but exists. if you do something, it exists, for you, and everything related to that action, that exists. if you think you dont exists, you then exist.

am i crazy? how can you prove it? theres no way to prove anything with sure. or... you can prove everything by the simple fact: if you think on it, it exists.

im looking even crazier? ok, think whatever you want. when you do so, you exist, i exist, and what you think exists... however, without any proof

understand what you wish, thats what i had to say.

Always and Never
April 8th, 2008, 05:53 PM
Great topic O_O

No seriously. I've been thinking the exact same things. What if we're just some speck of dust in an even bigger universe? I'm not gonna get into the whole, "I think I'm crazy!1!1" but I still think about this kind of stuff.

I mean, if what we perceive isn't real, I hope I die before they figure out what IS real. [seriously.]

Mechanic
April 13th, 2008, 08:07 PM
Only one thing to say after reading everything here (quite a good lecture also, just took me about 45 minutes to read all 3 pages of the thread 0.0)

As long as you think that your real and that something is the way you want to see it, there's no one out there that can change that fact. If you believe in yourself and you think you exist then you do, if you do not... Then who will believe it?

What i am trying to say here is... People see things in three different ways depending on there personality, how they see it, how they think it can be or how other's see it. Depending on what you've been tough is the way you see it, someone can see in you lonely guy that likes to stare at the stars (even tough you aren't) or someone cool to hang out and to have fun with...

That fact is only decided by you, people wont really know you until they talk with you and they know you, and the way they see you and make you exist in this world will only depend on you...

Why do we exist? Well we can't just be space in the universe to fill it out... We are what other people wants us to be, even tough you've left in them another impression, if nobody knows of your existence or don't even have a tough of who you are or anything then you REALLY don't exist at all but, look us here. talking to you via a forum, and look at you over there, writing us back. That can only mean one thing and that is you EXIST in this world and that is for something but the only one that need to know what that something is, is you and to find out what it is you have to go search it yourself...

END