Garchomp is broken ?

[Dark Azelf]

Xcfrisco from Smogon Forums wrote:

let me start by warning everyone that this thread is gonna be very tl;dr. So if you're not interested in READING EVERY SINGLE THING I SAY please don't even bother posting and stop right now and move to a different thread.

Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

P.S. I am more than aware that a similar topic got closed yesterday. I would like people to know that I got permission from multiple Smogon admins to post this thread :p




Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

[Blargtastic808]

SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

[Sora_8920]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

[Dark Azelf]

SD Chomp makes ruins out of teams but then again so do a lot of SD users. I guess the big difference is how bloody fast Garchomp is. I've seen him sweep teams 6-0. I myself have been swept almost at the very end of the game where SD Chomp was the guy's last pokemon. He broke through everything I had (noted they were weary from the battle but still). Garchomp is a beast, but I think it's just the typing that keeps it, along with a lot of non legendary dragons, in the OU tier.

I'm a bit undecided on if he should be locked away in uber or not.

I don't know the calcs but can a CB Weavile's Ice shard kill it in one shot?

Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down to 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/ and SD Fire Fang 2hko's it.

[Sora_8920]

Ice Shard from a CB weavile ohko's, yes, but your forgetting about its Trait : Sand veil, which makes Ice Shard's accuracy go down 80%, especially in a Sandstorm Hippowdon, T-Tar, dominated environment. I know Ice Shard will more than likely hit, but stil, if it misses, your pretty much screwed, you could argue that you could use a Jolly, ice Punch, Choice Scarf No Guard Machamp, however thats over centralization and everyone should not have to use that just to counter this. Also theres the possibility of Yache Berry not to forget, and if Weaviles Ice Shard connects, the Yache Berry will save it and then its gonnna own weavile.


Its trait is stupid, who ever at gamefreak gave it that needs shooting, why not Intimidate or something ?



EDIT :@Itachi, errm Fire Blast from Chain Chomp OHKO's Skarmory =/

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

[Anti]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

[Dark Azelf]

I wouldn't say that. It isn't that noticeable.

That being said, I can see where whoever wrote this is coming from. Of course, I'd rather have this than Wobbuffet though ;)

Anyways, Garchomp is so annoying when you have Raikou with 2 CMs in and HP Ice, and Garchomp comes in. You don't know whether you should attack it or run fearing Scarfchomp. So meh, I'm still 50/50 personally. The first time I heard a cry for chomp to ibers when when I had a brief conversation with Syaoran about a month ago.

Granted, Garchomp is easily one of the best OU pokemon. I'll have to sleep on it.

Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

[Syaoran]

I think Garchomp is the best OU pokemon. Every stat in this pokemon was put in the right place, the typing is excellent, and the ability is just ridiculous. I feel that Garchomp should be a Uber. My rain dance team has a Garchomp, and he does excellent on it, even without his ability activating. Garchomp is just that good.

[sims796]

If it has the chance to get even a single SD in, It's godly. Just don't expect it to OHKO Skarmory. But yeah, this guy should 1000000% be moved up to the Uber Tier.

And how is that related to SD Chomp precisely?

I'd like to answer this. First off, Chain Chomp also has Swords Dance. Second, SD Chomp also uses Fire moves. It's stupid not too.

With that done, I can give my opinion.

It would sadden me for it to become uber, but not by much. Why? Well, it was never too much for me to handle. It's the whole reason I got Sceptile in the first place, and his Dragon Claw is the move to kill it with one hit.

However, I have always been lucky with DC. I can see how painful it is. It is too much to prepare for. Revenge killing is the best you can do, and that's if you're lucky. In Sandstorms, he is Godly. Unless that Seer Cold/Lock On strategy works all of a sudden. But it's the fact that we don't know which is which that is so harsh.

[Sora_8920]

Yeah, it has that aswell, the element of surprise, so many sets, that beat so many common switch ins, you might be expecting a Scarf Chomp and switch in Gliscor and it will go Chain Chomp on your ass...



This whole thread is related to Garchomp, not just S'D Chomp, all versions of it.

Life Orb'd Fire Fang from S'D Chomp actually 2hkos skarm.

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

[Dark Azelf]

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

[sims796]

I know. But, tell me, who in the hell keeps in on a Skarmory anyways? You can't.

What? That doesn't make sense. First off, Skar can't switch in without losing a chunk. Second, because it 2HKO, he wouldn't NEED to switch. Meaning Skarmory is in no way a wall to Chomp, since it has a fire move to take it out.

[Sora_8920]

I dont know itachi, why would you keep Garchomp in on Skarmory


252 ATT, Jolly Garchomp @Life Orb

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 213 - 250
Damage: 63.77% - 74.85%


On 252 hp / 252 def Impish Skarmory


After a swords dance



Thats why.

Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi. Edit: And nobody keeps a skarm in on a Garchomp, either then to Roar it away.

[Dark Azelf]

Skarm will not let you just get away with a SD in the hands of a right player, now would they? Roar just says hi.

You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

[Sora_8920]

You swords dance as skarm switches in on you.

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

[BeachBoy]

My thought with garchomp is that if it becomes uber, overcentralization with other beastly OUs will come in play and then we start debating that whole swirl. Aka if garchomp goes you can bet lucario will be next.

I love garchomp, it's a jet, a shark, a dragon, a pirate, and a friggin beast all in one. What's not to love. Excellent everything... well except special attack =P

It looks like garchomp could become uber, it's incredible. But if we lose the beast, i think we are starting an even bigger problem with over-centralization.... That's what we're trying to avoid, yes?

Lucario and others will step into the light even more with garchomps presence no longer a force to be reckon'd with.
If garchomp leaves many walls use get better, weavile may even take a hit as it doesnt have to revenge kill it anymore.

So what about that?

[Dark Azelf]

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

Fire Fang also has a flinch rate.


And if it Roars, so be it, SD on the switch in again and fire fang it again, it will soon die, especially once its taken residual damage from the rest of your team.

And sooner or later, its


A] Going to roar out your sp.sweeper, so it cant heal and has to switch, so next time it comes into chomp, it dies
B] It Flinches
C] Roar misses, due to Sandstorm being common
D] You get a crit
E] It completely forgoes Fire Fang and uses Fire Blast on its set instead once as you switch in and then again, which required no SD, and beats skarm to a pulp.





@Beachboy, your forgetting Lucario has a counter Weezing and Gliscor, Garchomp doesnt, no sure fire 100% one anyways

[sims796]

But still, It'a 2HKO, Roar, Roost.

I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

[Dark Azelf]

I'll say the flaws here. First off, if Skar switches in, it's an OHKO on the second hit, since it is that slow. Second, Skar can't afford to waste time with Roost. Third, Skar is as good as dead, enough for a KO from anything else. The damage done to Skar is too great to try and stay in on. Stop trying to make others look dumb, it's backfiring.


Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Big mistake by gamefreak IMO, if your putting this monster in the game =p, tbh, it needs a sure fire counter, Water/Steel type with levitate should do it lol

[sims796]

More like an oversight, as if they don't take the time to see the long term damage.

[BeachBoy]

Now on to more serious discussion, as to Beach Boy's response, that doesn't make much sense. Lucario is taken out by much, and walled easier. He hasn't the speed like Chomp. These pokes won't get better with Chomp gone, and Weavile with his speed is still a revenge killer.

Im not talking about the counters, unpredictability mainly with lucario.. anyways off of luke...

How can the walls not get better? If this beast isnt shreding some of them apart there use could become greater...

Yeah I guess weavile will stay the same. But if garchomp leaves, how can some pokemon not get better with it's departure?
I guess Im completely wrong in this, oh well. XDDD

So yeah it was just a thought...

I believe the beast will be put into uber, I really wish it wouldn't but alas, it looks broken. bye bye pirate shark. I'll still love the game either way...

[sims796]

Hey, I like Chomp too, but he really breaks the metagame. It's more noticable now because Sandstorm teams were more of a gimmick until recently.

Second, these walls are more useless with Chomp. They won't get better, just more useful.

[Dark Azelf]

Im not talking about the counters, unpredictability mainly with lucario.. anyways off of luke...

How can the walls not get better? If this beast isnt shreding some of them apart there use could become greater...

Yeah I guess weavile will stay the same. But if garchomp leaves, how can some pokemon not get better with it's departure?
I guess Im completely wrong in this, oh well. XDDD

So yeah it was just a thought...

I believe the beast will be put into uber, I really wish it wouldn't but alas, it looks broken. bye bye pirate shark. I'll still love the game either way...

Nah, its good that your voicing your opinion dude lol


Anyways, its not official thats its going to be moved up to uber, it looks like its possible with the recent abuse of it.


Anyone battled a Sub/SD Brightpowder Garchomp in Sandstorm ?, its the most broken piece of crap ive ever met, you miss just about every turn, which = a free sub and SD which = Kthnxbai team =/

[sims796]

Isn't Bright Powder Mothe frackin hax, anyway?

[Dark Azelf]

Isn't Bright Powder Mothe frackin hax, anyway?

yep, but some battlers on shoddy use it, its not banned there or anything.

[sims796]

I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

[Dark Azelf]

I swear, what ever happend to courtesy nowadays? Time for my Double teamming Fissure Shuckle...

Time for my Double Team/ Sub-seeding /Spore Breloom with no sleep caluse =)



Honestly, -28% accuracy to every move in sandstorm and with Brightpowder is ridiculous.


What i find is more ridiculous is that its bulkier than swampert =/ AND it takes 269 sp.att or STAB to guarantee a ohko on a 16 hp/0 sp.def Chomp with an Ice Beam. Oh dear...

I know you think well thats not alot,but most bulky starmie dont even run that much sp.att..

[Anti]

Bulkier than Swampert...ouch...I use Swampert ._.

Also, about skarmory, even if it could survive fire Fangs easily, what is Brave bird going to do to something with more physical bulk than Swampert?

[sims796]

So I must rebreed my Raichu to have HP ICE. And I KNOW that's not enough.

Guess it's time for me to bring out my Choice Scarf Wigglytuff...

[Tortured_Soul]

It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

[Dark Azelf]

It is definately an issue to be concerned with. As stated by the Smogon'er, all of Garchomp's "Counters" are liable with Sand Veil in activation. Choice Band Garchomp locked into Outrage under a Sandstorm is one of (if not the) greatest threat(s) in the OU metagame. We would need time to dwell on it, but this argument has been raging for quite awhile on Smogon now.

~T_S

I wish we could link to other forums, then i could find that thread. I havent actually viewed it in a while, whats the current situation of it being considered in ubers on Smogon ?


Thing is there's is no 100% sure fire way to counter it, sad, but true.

[Tortured_Soul]

I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

[sims796]

If you can, Dark, put it in your sig for the time being.

[Lil MuDkiP849]

I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

[Dunsparce]

I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @.@

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

[Tortured_Soul]

I've seen the n00biest of n00bs use Double-Team on 'Chomp while in a Sandstorm with Bright Powder attached to it.

Would it help if GF made a Physical Ice-Type Swift that Weavile can learn or Something? @.@

Could anyone run the calulations on this?

Freeze-Kill(Can't think of a cool name)
Power: 60
ACC: ---
PP: 15
Never misses.

On each of the standard Weavile sets and the gimmickly Choice Scarf one.

Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

[boo836]

Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

[Dunsparce]

Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

This is how I usually run my Weavile

Weavile@Choice Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

[Sora_8920]

Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

[Tortured_Soul]

Yeah, but it cannot OHKO Garchomp, Garchomp is faster and Recover will only work second, you would be on the back foot the whole time. Ice Beam with only 72% Accuracy is lucky to hit 2 times, so unless the Garchomp user is stupid, you shouldn't be able to beat him.

~T_S

This is how I usually run my Weavile

Weavile@Choice Scarf
Adamant
6 HP/252 ATT/252 SPD
Ice Punch
Night Slash
Brick Break
Pursuit

Can someone calculate the damage if the imaginary Freeze-Kill was put over Ice Punch?

Well for starters, no need for that much speed when you scarf something with Base 130 speed. (If you would actually do that at all... >_<)

"Freeze-Kill" vs 16HP/min Garchomp = 119.94% - 141.27%

But you need to see something. For starters, this is a non-existant move. Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf. Lastly, if you look at both Swift, Shock Wave, Aura Sphere etc, they are all Special Typed attacks. This means that more than likely the attack will be Special. This makes the damage:

41.83% - 49.31% from your Weavile set.

~T_S

[Dunsparce]

Next, you are running a Choice Scarf Weavile in the sole hope of killing one pokemon. You completely disrupt the power of Weavile by giving it Choice Scarf.

I didn't come up with that 'Scarf Weavile. I got it from This Smogon Forums Thread (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29250)

[Thebiggamer]

I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

[Dark Azelf]

I'll PM it to you, give me a sec to find it...

~T_S

Thanks dude ;)

I feel he's broken because of his movepool and 600 base stats...just an extremely deadly combo...(i know it's been sated before i'm jus stating my opinion...)

And like sims said...what's the deal with all of these sandstorm teams coming about? i battled quite a few in the past 2 days

Yep, SS teams are nasty. Garchmps movepool is just stupid, Fire, Dragon and Ground hit everything in the game for at least neutral, has Outrage and SD, hence the ability to beat all of its "Counters", i think id be better calling its counters "switch ins" thats all they are, there is no counter for it......

Problem is, Weavile only ever beats Scarfchomp with Ice Shard. Remove it, and it is outsped an OHKO'd before it gets the chance. It wouldn't make any difference. It wouldn't solve the problem at all, as Weavile would outspeed any other chomp and OHKO with Ice Punch.

~T_S

Problem being, even if weavile gets a Ice Punch/Shard in, there is always the possiblity of it missing due to sand veil and/or Bright Powder, or even Yache berry, once you way to deal with the dude is gone your pretty much screwed...

Guys, wouldn't mold breaker work and disable sand veil? If not, what about a fast poke with gastro acid?

Name one poke who can use those moves effectively ? lol. Also if everyone HAD to use those moves, its Over centralization.

Problem is, I don't think anything with Mole Breaker can counter Garchomp. :/ EDIT: I had an idea, how about Gastrodon? He can survive Physical variants, shrug damage off with Recover, Ice Beam it. Yeah... He can also destroy special variants with Mirror Coat.

Eww, Gastrodon is no counter

252 Neutral Choice Band Garchomp Outrage...

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 271 - 319
Damage: 65.14% - 76.68%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon



Neutral SD EQ from 252 ATT Neutral Garchomp@Life Orb

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 391 - 460
Damage: 93.99% - 110.58%

On 212 HP / 252 DEF Relaxed Gastrodon.


Draco Meteor from a 252 SP.ATT neutral Garchomp

Defender HP: 416
Damage: 233 - 274
Damage: 56.01% - 65.87%

On a 212 hp / 0 sp.def gastrodon


And Gastrodon is no where near ohkoing Chomp anytime soon.

I've never had problems with garchomp, the best one I encountered got a free set up on me(I'm stubborn about switching out sleeping pokes) and after 2 swords dances he did 75% to my hippowdon before getting 1HKO'd by ice fang

Has your Hippowdon got a Choice Band by an chance. ? Thats the only time that will ever OHkO a Garchomp with Ice Fang...










Also guys, the links are in my sig if you want to take a look ;)

[Chérii]

I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

[Dark Azelf]

I agree that Garchomp outclasses most of the Overused Pokemon. If it is truly put up to uber, though, I don't think it will do very well in that tier. It will be pretty minor threat though, and its usage will drop tremendously. Compared to other ubers like Palkia, Kyogre, etc. its just not that good. It may have pretty beast stats, but compared OU its pretty minor. It will get outrun by most of the uber Pokemon, and seeing most of the ubers' offensive stats, it will be instantly KO'd. Well, I'm pretty undecided for now.

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

So yep pretty much that ^^^

[dialga493]

I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.

[Chérii]

So yep pretty much that ^^^Heh, I totally read that ... about a second ago. <<;
Still, Garchomp fails at uberism compared to the other gods of uberism. So I have made my point )<

Garchomp, has like no counters. ._. Especially while holding the Yache Berry from Weavile's Ice Shard. Gyarados, sort of does but ... Dayum Stone Edge. So yeah, uberify it. Its too bulky and powerful offensively and defensively for OU.


I too have a Garchomp.It's balanced but it is a little off but it's good.

You should try giving it Protein and stuff like that.
A little obvious... don'tcha think? It needs EVS <<;

[RenzokukenofCerberus]

Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

[Chérii]

Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.
That applies for any pokemon, though. And the only likely move to miss is Fire Blast (without hax <<;)

[Dark Azelf]

Just like any Pokemon it depends on the nature, but if you get the ideal one it's still beatable. Cause unless the team is built around 1 or 2 Garchomp's I doubt if Sand Veil would come in handy.

Plus, Pokemon like Swampert aren't effected by Sandstorm's buffeting thing, and are pretty good at taking hits. Cause even though Garchomp gets more evasion, there's still the chance that Garchomp's moves could miss too.

Thing is (If you read the first post with the damage calcs),disregarding sand veil, Swampert looses to SD Chomp it 2hko's Swampert and Swamperts Ice Beam doesnt OHKO Chomp. Also a Choice Band Outrage 2hkos swampy...

[boo836]

It just hit me. Cradily! Gastro acid + hp ice= Hurt chomp!

All I need is to run calculations.

[Dark Azelf]

It just hit me. Cradily! Gastro acid + hp ice= Hurt chomp!

All I need is to run calculations.

Its not just its ability, im pretty sure a Choice Band Outrage would likely 2hko, same with the Sword Dance variant, and factoring Cradilys mediocre offense, i doubt HP ice would OHKO...


Also, must everyone use Gastro Acid on their team,Just for Garchomp a stupid move which has no other use apart from that ? Over Centralization, again...

[Sora_8920]

Its not just its ability, im pretty sure a Choice Band Outrage would likely 2hko, same with the Sword Dance variant, and factoring Cradilys mediocre offense, i doubt HP ice would OHKO...


Also, must everyone use Gastro Acid on their team,Just for Garchomp a stupid move which has no other use apart from that ? Over Centralization, again...

Just what I was going to say. Actually, everything except Garchomp 2Hko'ing Cradily I agree with. Too lazy to run the calcs, you must have, though. :/

Like said many times, listing counters is pretty useless. Just look at me. :/ It's impossible to predict what variant it is at first. And nothing is a sure switch-in on it. Imagine if it had Nasty Plot. Lol. But nobody runs special for that reason, no Nasty Plot, and a bad special movepool. But yeah, nothing is a sure switch-in on either Sd Chomp, or Chain Chomp.

[Dark Azelf]

Just what I was going to say. Actually, everything except Garchomp 2Hko'ing Cradily I agree with. Too lazy to run the calcs, you must have, though. :/

Like said many times, listing counters is pretty useless. Just look at me. :/ It's impossible to predict what variant it is at first. And nothing is a sure switch-in on it. Imagine if it had Nasty Plot. Lol. But nobody runs special for that reason, no Nasty Plot, and a bad special movepool. But yeah, nothing is a sure switch-in on either Sd Chomp, or Chain Chomp.

It does infact 2hko Cradily. Nearly ohko lol

252 ATT, Neutral Garchomps, Life Orb'd Earthquake After a Swords Dance

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 372 - 438
Damage: 98.94% - 116.49%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. Pwned



Choice Band Outrage from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 258 - 303
Damage: 68.62% - 80.59%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. still pwned




Choice Band Earthquake from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 215 - 253
Damage: 57.18% - 67.29%


On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily.again pwned

[Sora_8920]

It does infact 2hko Cradily. Nearly ohko lol

252 ATT, Neutral Garchomps, Life Orb'd Earthquake

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 372 - 438
Damage: 98.94% - 116.49%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. Pwned



Choice Band Outrage from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 258 - 303
Damage: 68.62% - 80.59%

On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily. still pwned




Choice Band Earthquake from 252 Neutral Nature Chomp

Defender HP: 376
Damage: 215 - 253
Damage: 57.18% - 67.29%


On 252 hp / 164 def neutral cradily.again pwned

I didn't say it didn't. I didn't agree with you because I didn't know if it would or not.

[Cloud_85]

Another of the Bigs problems with Chomp is that you only know his moveset when it's too late, you may swich to Weavile thinking its a SD, but he maybe scarf or Band Chomp... His ability it's from another world, and his movepool it's just amazing. Really it deserve to be banned, I love it when I used on my first team, but when I tried deal with him on a stall team he was a big deal...

[shedinjask]

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
76 Attk/252 Spd/180 SDef -- Adamant
Swords Dance
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Fire Fang
Earthquake

Swords Dance, take the hit for Salac, kill 'counter', sweep. Uber.

[Dark Azelf]

Garchomp @ Salac Berry
76 Attk/252 Spd/180 SDef -- Adamant
Swords Dance
Outrage/Dragon Claw
Fire Fang
Earthquake

Swords Dance, take the hit for Salac, kill 'counter', sweep. Uber.

I think ive heard about that set, or one similar it survives ice beam doesnt it ? lol

[Syaoran]

Yeah, the thread about it on smogon is popular now. I wouldn't use that set, because I rather have him strong enough from the start, and I intend on him taking hits anyway by switching in, so there's no point for me to use it I guess.

[zenrot]

There will ALWAYS be someone who sets a curve. So Garchomp is powerful, there are always going to be powerful pokemon. There is no reason to make him uber.

[Dark Azelf]

There will ALWAYS be someone who sets a curve. So Garchomp is powerful, there are always going to be powerful pokemon. There is no reason to make him uber.


Thing is if you read ALL of the first post it explains why.

Its not just because he is "powerful", its because it literally has no counters, a stupid ability and is bulkier than swampert and it takes a ridiculous amount of att or sp.att to ohko it.

[zenrot]

well yeah thats true. But if he is so good then use him for yourself or just be prepared. It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat. In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

[Dark Azelf]

well yeah thats true. But if he is so good then use him for yourself or just be prepared. It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat. In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

Please read the whole first post, this applies to everyone, i made that specific on the first post in big bold blue letters


Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.


Yeah

[airconditioning]

use him for yourself

So, I'm forced to use Garchomp or lose? Sounds broken to me.

or just be prepared

That would work- if it you could prepare for him. He has so many wildly different sets, that it's impossible to predict what he'll do until he gets off a Swords Dance or kills off your fastest sweeper.

It's not like garchomp is impossible to defeat.

True, but he's damn near.

In my opinion if you ban garchomp, than ban blissey and skarmory too.

What DA said. Besides, Skarmory and Blissey are easy to take out.

Comments in bold, etc. etc.

[FourFourTwo]

I've never really had a problem with Chomp. Then again, I run a Hail team, so it's easy to counter.

But I can see why its broken. Almost EVERYONE I've gone up against used some form of chomp, but it cant stand a 100% accuracy blizzard from a max HP/def walrein. :)

I think it should stay in OU, honestly, you just need a bit of strategy to take it down. In my opinion, softboiled/aroma/ST bliss is much more annoying.

[shedinjask]

Bliss may be more annoying but it has tons of counters.

[Sora_8920]

Bliss may be more annoying but it has tons of counters.

Quoted for truth.

Read that thread from PE2K. (http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77461)

[ABYAY]

Garchomp is one of the few pokemon that sends a spike of fear down my spine. It's basically counterless. Also, that Sand Veil ruined my only chance to take down a Life Orb Chomp back in the past. I was up 4-1. My ape's CC missed, got quaked. My Bliss got crit and killed in one hit, and I needed to pull Aromatherapy to wake up Milo. I had Sleep Talk as backup, but obviously, I had to get Rest. Forry did get a nice hit with Gyro Ball, but that's about it. If the crit wouldn't have happened, It would've been at least a draw.

It speaks for itself; various sets make people question constantly. The only decently effective way in finding out what item it has is to use Frisk, but no OU pokemon uses Frisk. From the looks, the new main pokemon to use against Garchomp is Mamoswine due to its average defense and impressive HP and attack. That Ice Shard is a nice tool with the attack and Choice Band. i guess this is why I'm hearing more about Mamoswine these days? In the past, they were nearly obsolete from what I saw and heard.

[Cloud_85]

Yeah You may say that every Garchomps set have a counter, but his movepool it's SO amazing that when you know if he is Scarfed or Banded or SD or Chain it's really late... there is no safe swich, and he can always carry a Yache berry, with that only a CB Weavile doing Ice Punch with Adamant and 252 EV ATK (If both have 31 IV on Atak/Def) you can ohko him, that's the reason cause I don't use Jolly... Really weavile it's too fast for Jolly IMO. But Weavile isn't a safe switch against a Garchomp...

[Sora_8920]

Would it be safe to say that CB Mamoswine can counter Garchomp with Ice Shard w/o Yache Berry? LO is better for the SD Set, anyways. According to Anti-Pop, it gets strong really fast.

[Cloud_85]

Manoswine could be a kind of safe change, but that will cause overcentralization. That way anybody will have a Manoswine. And he will fear the Chain Chomp, Dunno if him ohko with Blast (I don't think so) and for ohko a Garchomp the Manoswine will need Adamant and several Ev on attack, and that won't be good for Mano against other sweepers...

[Sora_8920]

Manoswine could be a kind of safe change, but that will cause overcentralization. That way anybody will have a Manoswine. And he will fear the Chain Chomp, Dunno if him ohko with Blast (I don't think so) and for ohko a Garchomp the Manoswine will need Adamant and several Ev on attack, and that won't be good for Mano against other sweepers...

Why does everybody say this? We're NOT saying you SHOULD use one, just that's It's helpful. ;)

But otherwise, I'll just have to agree with the rest.

[Cloud_85]

Why does everybody say this? We're NOT saying you SHOULD use one, just that's It's helpful. ;)

But otherwise, I'll just have to agree with the rest.


XD, Well I'm not was trying to say that, but having only Mano as a REAL counter of almost all Chomp Versions (Note that Weavile can handle all except Scarf, if he don't have Ice Shard...) it's a reason for ban Chomp, right?

[Syaoran]

How exactly is Mamoswine a counter? You can't switch him in on a CB Outrage without him dying. If you intend on using a 252 HP/DEF Mamoswine, you're not going to 1HKO Garchomp anytime soon. Hell, the only way an adamant 252 ATK Mamo will 1HKO Chomp is with Life Orb or Choice Band. Sure you can revenge kill, but that means you have to lose something first.

[Cloud_85]

If Manoswine is CB he can use Ice Shard, that will ohko Garchomp without a Yache Berry, and I don't think that a CB Chomp can Ohko a Mano with Outrage, but I don't make any calculations. In that situation you can always revenge kill a Outrage from Chomp.

[Anti]

If Manoswine is CB he can use Ice Shard, that will ohko Garchomp without a Yache Berry, and I don't think that a CB Chomp can Ohko a Mano with Outrage, but I don't make any calculations. In that situation you can always revenge kill a Outrage from Chomp.

If it is easily 2HKOing our strongest bulky waters, a Mamoswine without good EVs in Defense will die easily. If you have to revenge kill, you'll have lost a pokemon just so Garchomp can switch out (since ICe Shard on Mamoswine is more predictable than a grammar error in Geore Bush's speech).

[Cloud_85]

Right, anyways he is a safe switch, really predictable but safe.

[Anti]

Right, anyways he is a safe switch, really predictable but safe.

How is it a safe switch if Mamo is OHKOed? >.>

[Gengarchomp]

Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.

[Arcknight316]

Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^

EDIT: And the Mods are unmodded, too! 0_o

Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense.

P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P

[Anti]

Swampert hasn't been discussed much. How would a Swampert with Avalanche do. It can take a hit and has a high attack.

2HKOed by CB Outrage. LO Dragon Claws are no pal either.

Lol is the Mod thing an April Fools trick? ^_^

Anyway, mostly, this guy is ranting about how Garchomp can't be countered because of Sand Veil. Well, compare: You can't really say Cross Chop doesn't counter Blissey because it has 80 accuracy, so that doesn't really make sense.

P.S. Love the George Bush comment :P

No, it is your logic that makes no sense because you're only taking one part from his argument. That's essentially saying that he's saying everything with Sand Veil is uber. Think of that, except now the fighters have to invest a lot of EVs to OHKO blissey to counter it. THEN give Blissey a movepool that would allow it to defeat every single one of its counters. NOW imagine countering blissey. that's what it's like to counter Garchomp.

There are pokemon that are 100% surefire counters for Blissey, where even if their attacks had 80% accuracy they would still easily laugh at blissey. Garchomp has nothing even CLOSE to that.

Honestly, I don't know why people keep bringing Blissey into the discussion, it doesn't have much relevance to this as far as its dominance over OUs is concerned (which neither post I quoted mentioned but other people have).

[Xairmo]

What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

[Anti]

What if you switched in Forretress to a Garchomp that has started Outrage and then explode?
And I agree about Swampert being a good counter. With Avalanche it seems to be able to OHKO Garchomp. And also Focus Sach Weavile, couldnt that be a revenge killer?

That's usually how I deal with the choice variants, but you'll be blowing up your physical wall (and using forry just to counter Garchomp defines overcentralization). Swampert taking 60% damage from an Outrage means it is about useless too, so you'd lose two pokemon to deal with Garchomp, and it might even be able to switch out. if Outrage is two turns.

The annoying thing with Garchomp is that the steels that only fear one of two moves from it can't really hurt it much besides blowing up. If that's the best way to counter Garchomp...

I'm about 60/40 right now, 60 being with the uber party. There just...aren't solid counters like other pokemon have. That and the lack of valid argument against it being uber, while the party of for it being uber has a good argument.

[Xairmo]

What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

[shedinjask]

Bliss can't switch in, Metagross does not like EQ. Not a counter.

[sims796]

But you see, this is the thing, the reason why you are at an impass, the reason why there is even a debate in the first place. As far as theorymon goes, we've all taken down our far share of Chomp. So it is hard to honestly say that it goes into uber without serious consideration.

However, these therories are all pretty true. I predict that in the near future, it will be a beast of unimaginable power. I am for it uber, but I will miss my Chomp "counter". But thefact that it has no counter, the fact that it overcentralizes the game is what makes it so hard to keep.

And it doesn't overcentralize like Blissey. Having a counter is one thing, as all teams must be prepared for Bliss. However, Chomp has no reliable counters, and in order to have a glimpse of beating him, we must use such a few selection of "counters" it's not even funny.


EDIT:Xarmio, listen to yourself. How good is a counter Blissey? It's awful. But for it to be used on just this one poke, wasting a perfectly good Blissey on one poke with a set that is fail otherwise, is the very definition of overcentralization. You are further proving the reasons why he should be uber.

[Xairmo]

Metagross could hold Shuca Berry to weaken the EQ. Blissey would switch in after a poke is KOed and then use counter

EDIT: Okay well my Blissey's ice beam has OHKOed Garchomp. I personally have never had that big a deal with Garchomp. Sure its one of the better pokemon you'll see but it doesnt seem to be of "Uber" status IMO. Its not unstoppable in any way.

[sims796]

Look at my edit. Meta sucks with Shucca. Blissey can't beat anything else with Counter. But for it to be used on just this one pokemon, is the definition of overcentralization. Along with that flawed strategy, it would be a waste of a Bliss, since it cannot work anywhere else in the game.

[Gengarchomp]

What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

[sims796]

Then everything else would be weakened. To a serious degree.

[Anti]

What if just certain movesets are banned instead? The pokemon and stats are not Uber, but it is the variety of moves are what is killing everyone. What about Lucario's diversity, you ask? Well Lucario is not the one pokemon that every competative team needs to have and counter, and It's stats aren't as high as Garchomp's. Maybe if SD or CB were banned from some tournaments, the metagame would become more balanced and Garchomp would not be held back by it too much.

The would be pseudo-banning it. You'd basically be nerfing it (not to mention a whole lot of other sweepers) to the point where this would become GSC again and sweepers would lose enough power that an epic stall war would begin.

Also Xairmo, I'm pretty sure it takes a TON of SAtk EVs to OHKO Garchomp with Ice Beam. Even then, switching in on it simply will not be happening.

EDIT: By epic stall war I mean sweepers wouldn't be able to sweep, and his would turn into GSC (or possibly Advance) with more pokemon. Banning strategic items like CB and Specs really won't help.

[Xairmo]

Uber

This section is for Pokemon with insanly high stats that can't normally be defeated by a normal Tier Pokemon or they have a combination of huge movepools and gigantic overall stats.
Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

[sims796]

Just quoting the tier resource. So after reading the above quote, does Garchomp really have that insanely high stats? And is it no0t normally beaten by normal tier pokemon?

No. How a pokemon performs in the uber tier is not the only regard whether or not it belongs there. If a pokemon is deemed too broken for OU, up to uber it goes. Wobbuffet is a perfect example. He sucks in uber, but is too broken for OU.

[Cloud_85]

I agree that Chomp should be banned, but if him is to weak to Uber (There are really good walls there) and to broken to OU, we're just saying that he will be useless. Maybe people will play with him on Uber, but he won't like Lugia after one reflect or Deoxys-A kill him with Ice beam, or Kyogre doing Ice Beam... He will be excelent with Groudon but....

[Leevis96]

Counter Bliss always takes down a non brick break Garchomp easy

[Cloud_85]

Actually he get OHKO by a CB Outrage... I guess he will die even with an EQ (I guess), so really sucks...

[Feuer]

well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

[Dark Azelf]

well apart from the fact it pwned all my lvl 6's in my team during the Pokemon League Champion Fight, i found it weak. so it used EQ to own my Luxray. Big deal. it ain't broken, it's just a bit strong. it's like saying Salamence is broken. Both pokemon have x4 weaknesses to Ice so a good weavile (with the extra speed) could take it down in 1-2 hits. i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last.

lolluxraylol

This is just a thought, a hunch maybe, but you didnt read any of the frst post did you ?



anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber

So what relevance does this have, it doesnt have to be "good" to be in Ubers or even as good as other ubers, but if it is too broken for the ou metagame, it will be banned.

Salamence is easy to counter, physical is loled at by Hippowdon, Donphan, Bronzong, Slowbro, frkiin anything, Specsmence gets loled at by cressy Blissey etc, Calm Max sp.def milotics etc, Mix mence with BB/DM/FB/Filler Cressy, sp.defensive Zapdos etc.

Difference here, is that none of the above pokemon, infact nothing in the entire metagame can safely switch into a CB Garchomp, or any garchomp set really. The counters for mence were from the top of my head, i can name umteennmillion more, however, I CANNOT do the same for chomp, it has no counter.

I may consider using a CB Chomp on Wifi in the next couple of weeks to test it, that or try out my Bright Powder Garchomp as apart of a sandstorm team, then tell me which is more broken Mence or Chomp =)


i used Palkia and used water pulse, it did more damage than my other moves, even spacial rend which has been replaced with earth power. anyways, i don't think it's as good as an uber. if EV trained and has max IV's, then ye, maybe, but if it's up against EV trained, IV bred Ice type, well, you're, uhm...screwed? ye ye, screwed, forget about it, you might as well weep in a corner against ice types, especially if you bring him out last

Im not even gonna say anything....... Apart from maybe........... sigged ?

Any ice type stupid enough to switch into chomp dies (also its guaranteed not to last long anyways, Stealth Rock says hi), apart from them not even being common pokemon. Ice MOVES are however common, still chomp outspeeds most with a Scarf on it, Also have you ever heard of the item "Yache Berry"....



Im not trying to be an ass here, this applies to everyone : - if you post without reading, your going to make yourself look a fool, apart from it being incredibly annoying and ignorant. I read all of your threads before posting, so can i just ask for the same respect, thanks. Ive even wrote it in huge Blue size 5 letters on the front page and still no one sees it apparently,so ima go and make it size 8.

[Tortured_Soul]

What about Counter Blissey? That will OHKO Garchomp. Or Metagross with Ice Punch (Emerald move tutor move)?

But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S

[Dark Azelf]

But the problem is, Blissey cannot switch in safely. Secondly, running a Counter Blissey for the sole point of taking out Garchomp is null. If Garchomp has run through your team, taking out your special wall leaves you vulnerable. Garchomp has no real counter with it's ability. Unfortunately, Gamefreak only gave it one ability. If it had two, we could simply add another clause. "No Sand Veil Garchomp". (But that cannot happen) Without Sand Veil, CB Ice Shard Weavile is a great revenge kill, but it still cannot switch into anything. This is a mixed bag in my books. I need to run some calcs later on.

EDIT:

Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%

Not everything I wanted to do, but I'm being rushed to log off. Basically, there are some of the main pokemon. I will update later.

~T_S



Thanks T_S, ;), Ice Shard revenge killing is actually harder than it sounds, firstly you have to get the poke in there w/Ice Shard, via sacrificing something on your team so you get a free switch in and hope to god its still locked into Outrage or its gonna switch out and come back later and then your gonna have to make another sacrifice.

[_Prince_]

Of course Garchomp is broken, anyone can see that. If garchomp didn't learn outrage and didn't have that special ability then things could have been different, right?:P Nah maybe not.

Outrage 120+stab = oh come on that's broken coming off a SD too, least CC gets blocked by ghost type pokemon.

[Willbey]

Garchomp is great, but a uber.
You see, if someone swiches in a ice pokemon, fire fang would really work here. Glaceon would proboly get 2hko'd.

[sims796]

Glaceon gets OHKO'ed by his Earthquake alone.

[Sora_8920]

Glaceon gets OHKO'ed by his Earthquake alone.

Not to mention Fire Fang. And in both cases, Glaceon is hardly a counter. EDIT: Fire Fang is a OHKO, I think.

[sims796]

You think? What doubts can there possibly be? Glaceon is not taking any hits from Chomp at all.

[Sora_8920]

You think? What doubts can there possibly be? Glaceon is not taking any hits from Chomp at all.

Well, I'm bad at words. So I probably didn't mean to put that. And I don't have any doubts. Like said before, I'm just bad with words. So my bad.

[_Prince_]

So, what are we guys gonna do about Garchomp? Majority of us are saying/stating garchomp should be sent to the uber tier and there aren't too many positive things said about garchomp.
Put it up in the ubers in the PC tier list?

[airconditioning]

Myself, I'm still on the fence- it feels strange banning a regular, non-legendary Pokemon. Especially one as popular as Garchomp. I mean, it's just a regular Pokemon.

Then again, I haven't battled in months.

[sims796]

The same can be said about Wobbuffet, but we gotta get over that.

[shedinjask]

When D/P came out some people were like 'omg agnome is broken banhammer nao' but most of the argument against it was 'it's a 580 trio poke it's fine'. Not 'it can't switch into ****', not 'it's pursuit weak and needs to set up first', but that we just don't ban the base 580 legends. Kinda stupid but people don't like breaking patterns I guess. I think that's why Garchomp was never ban tested. That and the lack of SS teams/Chain Chomp/Sub+BP sets.

And don't diss Counterbliss, it rocks. Infernape and bulky!Gyara can testify to that.

[airconditioning]

The same can be said about Wobbuffet, but we gotta get over that.

Wobbuffet was different- he's just so obviously broken. Plus, he was already banned when I got into Pokemon competitively, so I just accepted it.

Also, shedinjask, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. What's an agnome?

[Sora_8920]

Wobbuffet was different- he's just so obviously broken. Plus, he was already banned when I got into Pokemon competitively, so I just accepted it.

Also, shedinjask, I have absolutely no idea what you just said. What's an agnome?

A typo, most likely. Since It Isn't occuring in Microsoft Word Processor's Dictionary.

[airconditioning]

I typo, most likely. Since It Isn't occuring in Microsoft Word Processor's Dictionary.

Ha, I see what you did there.

[Dark Azelf]

Now, im not even japanese,but i know agnome is AZELF !!! =3 Its all in the name agnome = Gnome = Elf, hence Azelf, how can you not recognize teh Azelf, gtfo off my thread noaw!! =P lol J/K

Anyways, I get where Shedinjask is coming from. Azelf does seem broke on paper, nasty Plot, 125 base att and sp.att, gets explosion to beat sp.walls, awesome movepool, but in reality is it ?, i know better than anyone, it cant switch in for ass, gets lol'd at by status, and dies to pursuit, Chomp is kinda the opposite, it doesnt seem broke on paper, but if you take a look at it in depth, no definitive counter, the ability to beat all of its "counters" and a stupid ability, topped off by stats that can survive Ice Beams and Swords dance, base 102 speed and much much more, yeah. In early D/P people were not abusing BP, Sandveil sets OR CB sets, hence it never getting tested or even considered for ubers, but the recent abuse of it has let it be seen in a different light.

Also, Just because a "Normal" poke has never been uber before apart from wobby, people arnt used to it happening, hence why some people are skeptical of it, even if it is a normal poke, its still can be too broken for OU

[Sora_8920]

Ha, I see what you did there.

Spelling / Grammar is the last thing we're worried about, airconditioning. I have no clue as to why people are picky about it, anyways. EDIT: And most of the time, It's understandable.

[sims796]

He plain didn't know what shedinja mean, as did I. Calm your nerves, Itachi.

[Sora_8920]

He plain didn't know what shedinja mean, as did I. Calm your nerves, Itachi.

I was just being curious as to why people think about Grammar 90% of the time.

Also, I didn't know what he meant, either. Hence, the "Likely a typo" comment.

[sims796]

I was just being curious as to why people think about Grammar 90% of the time.

Also, I didn't know what he meant, either. Hence, the "Likely a typo" comment.

Because bad grammer leads to these sort of confusions. They usually stem up from people who doesn't take time when they write. Not that shedy doesn't use good grammer, just a rare slip.

[Dark Azelf]

agnome is AZELF in japanese!!! not a grammar error at all. I even explained that in my previous post.


Please dont spam my thread either, i couldnt care less who has bad grammar, just take it to pms.

[Sora_8920]

Because bad grammer leads to these sort of confusions. They usually stem up from people who doesn't take time when they write. Not that shedy doesn't use good grammer, just a rare slip.

Well, I know that but I was referring to the spelling part. Most of you, (including airconditioning). probably knew what I meant.

Also, sorry DA, and I wasn't saying it was a grammar error. I was referring to mine.

But, but back on-topic. The thing is, no matter how poorly it does in Uber, It's too powerful for OU play in the hands of a good player, similar to Wobba.

[Luke]

Let's keep this on the discussion of Garchomp's tier placement, not grammar people.

[ABYAY]

lol we can do what Smogon did and put Garchomp in the Limbo tier list.

Garchomp's stats are just absurd for its class. If they would've decreased HP for speed, then he'd be like the god of OU. (Honchkrow would probably also be in OU if that happened to him and if he was given better moves.)

Remaining on topic, Garchomp covers his only two weak spots very well from STAB users (Fire/SE for Ice, Dragon for well, Dragon) He's also granted resistance against the common T-Wave. His defenses are above average, and it's just a huge force. That and Cresselia are the two forces I fear, along with the uncommon Snorlax, but I'm resolving that issue.

[Anti]

SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.

[sims796]

Neither do I. I mean, we've all beaten our fair share of Chomps, but that doesn't really make it, you know, not uber. I mean, I beat a kid with a hacked Gritinia...with my Noctowl. It was embarassing. It has nothing to do with Chomp, I just always wanted to share that.

Despite them having the movepool, they just aren't as bulky as Chomp to place him in the same category as the rest. You and your overrated. Damn you. Damn you all.

Regardless (damn you all), I'm still not to rush it to uber, since it has been beat plenty of times. However, we should be grateful that he lacks a priority move.

[ABYAY]

Here's my last statement (still needs limbo tier!)

Garchomp is basically loaded with everything with few counters, but it's not an invincible machine. I see Garchomps fall in battle a decent bit after their type is recognized. Also, there's those all-known bad switch-in moments and underestimation of your opponent.

If it HAD to be OU or Uber, then OU is its place. I know this may sound like I'm arguing against my last post, but OU can take this thing on.

[sims796]

Just because we've seen it fall, doesn't mean it belongs in OU. As said, it has no counters.Even Swampert gets 2HKO'ed, so it's not even a reliable switch in. Someting must lose in order to revenge kill. I feel the metagame is just getting used to Chomp, and we will soon see it rise to more unreasonable standards.

[Outlawed]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

[Xairmo]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

[sims796]

20% Evassios does not gauarntee an ice shard to miss. I think moving Garchomp up to uber is ridicilous. We are saying after it SD's it is a god. On it's on it's not that special. Ice Beam Frosslass wipes it out. I don't think it should be moved up. No way.

What? Are you crazy? Frosslass can't switch into ANYTHING that Chomp throws. Maybe you should re-read those post, especially the first.The fact that he FORCES you to use luck in order to hope and win is the major trouble. 20% evasion is significant, and that miss WILL cost you the match. On top of the fact that we are all forced to use CB Donphans, which is a pretty lousy wall. How stupid do you think the Chomp user is? If it was that easy to beat, we wouldn't have 2 pages or somethin' worth of post.

EDIT:You guys really aren't thinking of why we are all saying why he should be uber. You are giving half made counter arguments. Furthermore, you are ignoring the reasons of why he belongs there. Read the first post.

Yeah, ive wanted to bring this up for a while, i want opinions on the matter, not a flame war. I want a debate, should this thing be moved up to uber ? . [U]However, Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

Here is a little reference for you guys not reading the first post, then making some half arsed argument.

[Pachy]

Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt 'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

[Angelic Diablo]

I think that there should be a tier for pokemon that are too good for OU, but can't be used in ubers... like Wobby, that thing is single handedly changing the OU environment simply because it can't handle a Specs Mewtwo Shadow Ball etc.

Blissey was under consideration for ubers btw, it's just Nasty Plot and Choice Specs and not to mention Focus Blast and Close Combat kinda changed that. Blissey isn't THE special wall for nothing.

(Not trying to change this to moving Blissey to ubers btw)

[_Prince_]

I agree. I mean if you're gonna throw Garchomp into Uber then you might as well throw Dragonite up there! I mean after a single Dragon Dance, Dragonite can take down 2-4 pokes with Outrage! I think sending a normal poke such as Garchomp to the Uber tier because some people cant take it down is so absurd. I think to do something like this will just suck the fun right out of the game >.> I mean what next? Blissey? Or Skarmory? Garchomp is by no mean unstoppable.

If Garchomp gets kicked out of the OU tier, I see Dragonite taking its place. I actually fear Dragonite more than Garchomp. I have been swept by Dragonite more times than Garchomp has swept my team.

However, Garchomp doesn't really have a proper counter, so that really dents its chances staying in OU.

[Feuer]

it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

[_Prince_]

it shouldn't be banned from ou and be classified as Uber as it isn't. it's still weak to Ice-type moves. what if you had a poke with an ice type move and scarf. also, yes, DA, i've heard of the Yache berry but still, x2 damage isn't that bad. defense wise, yes Chomp is broken but not broken enough.

Right... ice type move and scaf'ed? Ya really think that Garchomp won't switch out? Unless if was stuck in outrage, then yeah, that would work after it has killed your previous pokemon. ;)

[Tortured_Soul]

Listen, No matter how you toss the dice. No matter what numbers, stats, or movesets you throw at it...Every pokemon has a flaw.
From the UU class to the Ubers class, Every pokemon has weaknesses. Sure, you can spend all of your time debating that garchomp is broken. But in reality what pokemon isnt'broken' in some way.

In my opinion people use the Uber class to trash what actually works.
In other words...THE WHOLE GOSH DARN TIER SYSTEM IS FLAWED!

Seriously. I laugh at the tier system. It's why I got out of the batting scene. It ruins the whole point of a battle. Why draw a battle out by hobbling yourself?

Anyhow back ontopic. Sending garchomp to the ubers pile essentially tells everyone that the average trainer cant handle it. If that's the case then there is a sad sad future for pokemon battling indeed.

Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S

[sims796]

Let me see...

"ZOMG! FEAR Rattata is broken because it is guaranteed a KO!"

But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S
The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

[_Prince_]

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.
Hmm... If it's 1 on 1 then ...

Zangoose
Taunt
SwordsDance
Shadow claw ( + good crit chance)
Crush Claw/Return

[sims796]

Rebember, Double Team has most likely been used, and whenever you're (puny) hits connect, it won't do much, and he can Recover off the damages. And you know more than I that it's never one on one. This is the ultimate haxed staller, only beaten by Taunt, and if it already have Substitute up, it's over.

This set is for anyone bawing over tier list, and not realizing what Chomp is made of.

[Tortured_Soul]

The biggest problem is, too many people aren't thinking. For instaance, in Colum's post, which was widely flawed in so many ways imaginable, it's a prime example of someone not thinking of the consiquences. They aren't looking at the first post, and are constantly posting crap, because they didn't look at the first post. Nor are they looking at the facts of what Garchomp can do. They all want to make some stupid post "ZOMG,
HEZ WEEK 2 EYC TEYPS!", really sounding like idiots. I bet everyone saying Garchomp isn't uber didn't even look at Tortured wonderful post above me. It's not about the average trainer not being able to handle it, get off that hippie BS. It's about him literally being a cut above everything else, which is not fair.

And for Colum, if there is no tier system, tell me, what are you going to do about this:

Deoxys-Defense@Brightpowder
Nature:Impish
Double Team
Cosmic Power
Toxic/Recover
Substitute

Now, explain how you can beat this. Really, I'd like to know. What, bash through it? Nope. After Calm Mind, thenwith Substitute taking the slack, and don't forget, you will hardly ever hit it with Double Team. It's invincible, and can just stall you out of PP. "But a good trainer can handle it!" Enough with the hippie BS and actually tell me how.

Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

btw, you still have "Lost" in your friend list. I've given that account the nudge, this one is my main one, as it is the "known" one. :P (If you want to change it. ;))


~T_S

[sims796]

Thankyou sims. ;)

Seriously people, listen. sims, Dark_Azelf, Anti-Pop and Syaoran are experienced in these matters. All they are asking is that you read the front post. Please do this before you post some crap that will most likely get you flamed...

On another note sims, I have found one major flaw.

If you don't have Stealth Rock/Spikes/T-Spikes support up, there is one very easy way to deal with it.

KEEP SWITCHING OUT

You cannot PP stall your opponent if they don't attack. It makes the match impossible, but eventually your opponent will need to switch, unless they want to be there for hours. The Deoxys will eventually stall itself out...

~T_S

Then they would eat Toxic every turn. You'd lose this stall war far before he does. And he can indeed learn Spikes, so...

Remember, this is one of many pokes that is on a team. Don't tell me you guys stopped thinking as well. There are 5 more pokes to deal with, this being one of many. You can swap Cosmic Power for Reflect, even.

[Tortured_Soul]

I'm just saying that it isn't invincible if it is made to switch out, cancelling the sub and Cosmic Powers. (If the opponent is stupid enough to let you set up...)

But yes, that is a very apt example of why the tier system is in place. It also helps to get away from the 'Giants' like Tyranitar and Garchomp, and head to a more 'subtle' tier in UU.

~T_S

[_Prince_]

Rebember, Double Team has most likely been used, and whenever you're (puny) hits connect, it won't do much, and he can Recover off the damages. And you know more than I that it's never one on one. This is the ultimate haxed staller, only beaten by Taunt, and if it already have Substitute up, it's over.

This set is for anyone bawing over tier list, and not realizing what Chomp is made of.

Right... it's never one on one, in that case why wouldn't you just roar it out or something if it subs up. Still few trainers will be able to handle it ;). I know it's too broken so I won't argue that's it ain't. Same thing with chomp it hardly has a proper counter.

[sims796]

I'm just saying that it isn't invincible if it is made to switch out, cancelling the sub and Cosmic Powers. (If the opponent is stupid enough to let you set up...)

But yes, that is a very apt example of why the tier system is in place. It also helps to get away from the 'Giants' like Tyranitar and Garchomp, and head to a more 'subtle' tier in UU.

~T_S

Thank you Prince, and while I am here, it isn't hard at all to charge up at least twice for a Substitute, or a Sub then Reflect. Plus, not all teams use hazers, so this is over centralization as well. But I've made my point.

[Syaoran]

The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

[sims796]

The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

This is the funniest post I've seen, and it's so true.

[_Prince_]

The only pokes with reliable recovery that can phaze Garchomp are Hippowdon and Skarmory. Unfortunately Skarmory takes a big chuck of damage from Fire Fang / Fire Blast, while Hippowdon actually helps Garchomp by activating his Sand Veil, making Roar 80%.

True...Hippowdon also gets a huge dent from a SD outrage. While skarm is attacked with those fangs or a blast.:cool:

[Tortured_Soul]

I think the most horrible thing to come out of the past few weeks is that what does have a shot at Garchomp can now be held by Wobbuffet. Counter/Mirror Coat to the death and then sweep with Garchomp. Wobby must go up, and Garchomp has good reason to also head that way.

~T_S

[sims796]

But it'll be a shame for Chomp to move up. We shouldn't rush to boost it right away.

[Tortured_Soul]

I simply mean that by the current argument, there is for more support 'for' than 'against'. I am still in the wings though. I don't want to go messing too much with this sort of stuff. I'll check Smogon shortly to see where they've gotten on the matter.

~T_S

[sims796]

I'm not saying anything against Garchomp going for uber. But the fact is, we have all beat it time and time again. Unfortunately, the game is evolving, and Garchomp's stregnth's are starting to surface.

[AluminumKnight]

About Dragonite:

He might be good and DD Outrage is a beast (on any dragon, really), but there's a few reasons Garchomp is feared more:

Sand Veil
Electric Immunity
SR resist
No Rock weakness

These 3 things are HUGE deals. Sand Veil and 20% evasion? What evasion does Dragonite have? Electric immunity? Bye T-wave, and Thunder/T-bolt hit for neutral on Dragonite, which can take a large chunk of HP, while Chomp takes nothing. SR resist? This I don't even need to explain. No rock weakness? This eliminates completely a weakness from Garchomp that Dragonite has. Big advantage.

[Faceless*]

Oh so they move Wobbufet down... now they try to move Garchomp up a rank? I think they have enough reputation to completely move Mewtwo into OU..

Anyways, if Garchomp gets enough speed and attack with a stat-boosting move, it will be unstoppable considering it's bulk. Remember the time I mentioned Garchomp will not fall down to an Ice Shard? Well, Ice Shard is the only thing to touch it after getting past it's speed boosts. Now, I'm not saying that people will be an idiot and letting the opponent simply Baton Pass, but things could turn up pretty bad if your opponent has a neat strategy going. If they take down your Pokemon one by one, you never know when they have just taken down the Pokemon to stop the opposing Baton Pass!

Garchomp is a very SCARY Pokemon, almost nothing could wall it if you fall under it's SD. Saying this because not every team carries an "Ice Shard", but Garchomp can completely wreck havoc on Stall teams if used properly. I'm not very sure with some of the damage percentages mentioned up there, but I do disagree with some of the contents and agree with some as well. Haven't come up with a conclusion yet.

[Xairmo]

I think the Limbo tier is better placement than putting it into Uber. But what exactly would the limitations be on Garchomp in the Limbo tier?

[Anti]

Read the whole post before posting/or saying stupid things like "Liek zomg, Garchump is easy i beat it with a mudkip !111", In fact read the whole post before posting. Period.

Can people maybe try paying attention to this little tidbit? Half of the posts here have been...just not good. Everybody keeps ignoring the arguments presented, so I would...recommend that. In other words, make sure your post is accurate and worth reading. Opininsn are cool, but back them up with something other than "I've never had trouble with Garchomp before, I can beat it..."

Anyways, this discussion needs revived. I pretty much support its move to the uber tier, as there obviously aren't any good counterarguments and...it just makes sense.

Still, I needed to "revive" this since this is probably the most important topic on the board right now.

[airconditioning]

What will happen if Garchomp actually is banned? I don't frequent the WiFi battle forums here, but I'd imagine that most people there wouldn't agree with the ban. Would PC go along with the decision?

[Luke]

I can say that if Garchomp we're to be banned from OU play, I'd start a campaign as the Moderator of that forum as well to ensure people were aware of the decision. This in part due to the fact I agree with the banning of Garchomp.

[sims796]

I think we need more opinions on the matter before we close it. This affects the whole battling forum as a whole. Maybe a duplicate thread should be placed in Battle Thread, so more people can put in their word.

[Luke]

I never said anything about closing this thread. O_O I'm just saying that if Garchomp is banned, I'll make the effort to ensure that it's known in the D/P forum.

[sims796]

I meant close the case, not the thread. Like, settle on this as a reality, or something like that.

Regardless, I really think this thread needs to be seen by all battlers on the forum, as this will take them by surprise.

[Ooka]

Alright, so I just spent 10 minutes of my life going over the first post, and I have to say, this guy is totally right. He says that the only Pokemon that can survive 2 hits from a CBChomp is Hippowdon, but I don't think I saw him mention anywhere that Hippo also brings along a 20% boost in evasiveness to the already massive beast. And with Ice Fang being Hippo's only means of countering it, and it not even having 100 base accuracy in the first place makes him pretty much out of the question. Actually, the best (least likely) way to kill him would be to get out a set of Toxic Spikes before you see him, the have yourself a CBWeavile with Ice Shard on hand. So yeah, I completely agree with the fact that he should be uber, as he is obviously too broken in the OU tier.

[Ooka]

T_S, was that post even necessary? I mean take a look at it... it only tells that I lose by Garchomps (which is bull because CBDonphan is part of my regular team) and that I agreed with you guys... [NOTE: I had no attitude while writing this message, if anyone looks at it like an insult or something]

On an on-topic note...

I believe that Defensive Starmie can switch in on an Earthquake or Dragon Claw and OHKO with Ice Beam. Of course I'm about to go to bed, so no time for damage calculations.

[Luke]

That's partly because you seem to lose half your matches due to a Garchomp Ooka, but yes, you've only backed up the point that many of us have made.

~T_S

Brilliant post Tortured. The perfect example post of what we don't want in this thread.

[Tortured_Soul]

Have you seen the other posts coming through? Have you seen the posts I have given? Way to pick out the bad ones. :(

But anyway, Smogon seems to still be split. I am still hesitant on moving it to Ubers, but that limbo tier is crap. It basically says "You cannot use it in OU, but Ubers is fine, even if it does nothing".

We have based our arguments, it is time to come to a consensiss. (Spelling?) sims is right, we need to stop with the discussion and bringing more into it, and actually make a conformed decision.

I won't do that though. :P

~T_S

T_S, was that post even necessary? I mean take a look at it... it only tells that I lose by Garchomps (which is bull because CBDonphan is part of my regular team) and that I agreed with you guys... [NOTE: I had no attitude while writing this message, if anyone looks at it like an insult or something]

On an on-topic note...

I believe that Defensive Starmie can switch in on an Earthquake or Dragon Claw and OHKO with Ice Beam. Of course I'm about to go to bed, so no time for damage calculations.

With Sp. Atk EV investment, which may hinder the possibility of surviving.

~T_S

[sims796]

It's at least a 2HKO. It can't switch in and survive the next attack, especially on an EQ.

[Unlimited NiGHTS]

After reading the first 3 pages and skimming over the next 2 pages after that of this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the only real counter to a Garchomp is either Lugia or Giratina. Thus, Garchomp should be moved to the Uber Tier.

That's just my opinion, though.

[Dark Azelf]

After reading the first 3 pages and skimming over the next 2 pages after that of this thread, I have come to the conclusion that the only real counter to a Garchomp is either Lugia or Giratina. Thus, Garchomp should be moved to the Uber Tier.

That's just my opinion, though.

I think even Giratina would cry XD



Anyways, to make this even more broken, its not hard, but simply putting Outrage on the SD Set.


As for Scary, Check this,


Garchomp@Life Orb
16 HP / 252 ATT / 240 SPEED
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Blast

People who think switching steels into Outrages is safe, think again =/

As if the swords dance set wasnt scary enough...

The following are calcs of Life Orb Swords Danced Outrage vs Common steel types

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 43.71% - 51.50%

Max HP/Max Def Impish Skarmory




Defender HP: 338
Damage: 166 - 196
Damage: 49.11% - 57.99%

Max Hp/Max def Impish Bronzong



Defender HP: 404
Damage: 185 - 217
Damage: 45.79% - 53.71%

Max Hp/Max Def + Nature Jirachi


Defender HP: 354
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 41.24% - 48.59%

Max HP / Max Def Impish/Relaxed Forretress (With SR this is a 2hko)


Defender HP: 364
Damage: 154 - 181
Damage: 42.31% - 49.73%

Max HP/Max def Impish Metagross


Defender HP: 386
Damage: 177 - 208
Damage: 45.85% - 53.89%

Max HP / Max def Bold Heatran


Non-Steels

Defender HP: 420
Damage: 329 - 387
Damage: 78.33% - 92.14%

Max Hp/max Def Impish hippowdon

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 317 - 372
Damage: 89.55% - 105.08%

Max hp / Max def Impish Gliscor


Defender HP: 334
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 97.60% - 114.67%


Max hp/Max def Bold Weezing


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%


Max hp/Max def Bold Suicune

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 346 - 407
Damage: 87.82% - 103.30%

Max hp/Max def Bold Slowbro


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%

Max HP / Max def Bold Cresselia


Defender HP: 394
Damage: 429 - 504
Damage: 108.88% - 127.92%

Max HP/Max def Impish gyarados (I didnt do bulky gyara, i did this for a laugh)


Defender HP: 384
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 84.90% - 99.74%

Max Hp/Max Def Impish Donphan


Note : These ev spreads are not normal, some of these pokemon run less def evs than this, i used Max/Max to demonstrate how nasty this set is.

The good news is that there is ONE steel that does not get 2/3hkod by a sd Outrage on this set, this is : - Max HP / Max def Steelix (31%-37%) =).


Max hp / max def Bastiodon, probopass, Aggron, even Registeel get 3hko'd with sd outrage (Some of these get 2hko's if SR is up =/)

To prove this

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 139 - 163
Damage: 38.19% - 44.78%

Max HP / max def + DEf nature Registeel.

This is what i call Broken, its most common switch ins cannot live more than 2 hits from this set. Even the ones that can, you better pray to god that you havent taken ANY damage throughout the whole battle and that SR/Spikes, are not up.

This set may also bit easy to revenge kill, but i hope you realize that if Sandstorm is up, things may be a little more difficult. Even more so that some/most of these Switch ins, DO NOT HAVE A Recovery move, so cannot come in more than once or twice.


Even as Uber as it is, the almighty Luvdisc cant even stand an outrage.

Defender HP: 290
Damage: 353 - 415
Damage: 121.72% - 143.10%

Max hp/Max def =p

=o




Kthnxbai Metagame =/

[Ooka]

Wtf Luvdisc....

Well, are we all going to throw a vote? Or have we all agreed that it's broken in OU?

[Dark Azelf]

Wtf Luvdisc....

Well, are we all going to throw a vote? Or have we all agreed that it's broken in OU?



Luvdisc is by far the best wall in the Ou metagame, even in Ubers it outclasses Giratina and Lugia combined XD lol


What can we do about it though tbh ?

Ooka, do you still have your tier list ? We can test and "ban" Chomp there for a month or so and see how it influences the meta game or something....

[sims796]

Thank you!

I swept a team with Luvdisc alone, but they said it was haxed!

Regardless, I still say we need more opinions of the rest of the battlers on this site before we solidify this decision.

[Ooka]

Luvdisc is by far the best wall in the Ou metagame, even in Ubers it outclasses Giratina and Lugia combined XD lol


What can we do about it though tbh ?

Ooka, do you still have your tier list ? We can test and "ban" it there for a month or so and see how it influences the meta game or something....

Good idea. So then does everyone agree with this? Just changing it for about a month and testing it to see what happens.

Well, I'll go and type up a post anyways, and if people disagree, I'll revert back to the original.

[Dark Azelf]

Good idea. So then does everyone agree with this? Just changing it for about a month and testing it to see what happens.

Well, I'll go and type up a post anyways, and if people disagree, I'll revert back to the original.

Sounds good, but should we wait for more opinions on the matter, like sims said ?

[Luke]

You guys type up a final post and I'll make an announcement in the Wi-Fi section. I also need to consult with Shiny Umbreon and TB to make sure they agree of course.

[Ooka]

Well, I already posted one, but I'll just go and delete it. I'll pm you the post now.

[Faceless*]

Aiming towards the banning of Garchomp, eh? Ah all those Gible breeding for this..

Ah well, I do agree with the banning, that things been murdering my dang Skarmory with Outrage.. and it survived an Ice Punch from my Swampert..

[Sora_8920]

Luvdisc is by far the best wall in the Ou metagame, even in Ubers it outclasses Giratina and Lugia combined XD lol


What can we do about it though tbh ?

Ooka, do you still have your tier list ? We can test and "ban" Chomp there for a month or so and see how it influences the meta game or something....

You're joking, right? But yeah, Sims, I'll probably have to agree, since my knowledge on Luvdisc is very sub-par.

[Dark Azelf]

Aiming towards the banning of Garchomp, eh? Ah all those Gible breeding for this..

Ah well, I do agree with the banning, that things been murdering my dang Skarmory with Outrage.. and it survived an Ice Punch from my Swampert..


Abuse garchomp whilst you can is my advice for those Gibles ;)




You're joking, right? But yeah, Sims, I'll probably have to agree, since my knowledge on Luvdisc is very sub-par.


o_0

[shedinjask]

You're joking, right? But yeah, Sims, I'll probably have to agree, since my knowledge on Luvdisc is very sub-par.

it's like he doesn't spend any time on the internets

i vote yes for uberizing it

[Supreme Dirt]

I had an uber battle once, and pretty much swept the opponent's team, and then out popped Garchomp. It tore through everything in my team, and only managed to kill it because of Rayquaza's Air Lock, and a lucky critical hit with Dragon Pulse.

Yeah, it should be locked away in ubers. It is WAY too strong for OU.

[Anti]

I think the general conclusion is that Garchomp is too strong for standard play, proven further by the lack of any good argument against it and how many arguments (note the first post) that are in favor of it. Until somebody proves it to be weak enough for standard play, I think we have no choice but to ban it.

BTW the Registeel calc proves its ultimate superiority in the universe :)

Also, Luvdisc is famous for being bad...I think Azelf was being sarcastic ;)

[Ooka]

I guess if you switched in an Aerodactyl on an Earthquake, then CB Ice Fanged it, it would die. But that's about all I can see to murder it swiftly.

[sims796]

I think the general conclusion is that Garchomp is too strong for standard play, proven further by the lack of any good argument against it and how many arguments (note the first post) that are in favor of it. Until somebody proves it to be weak enough for standard play, I think we have no choice but to ban it.

BTW the Registeel calc proves its ultimate superiority in the universe :)

Also, Luvdisc is famous for being bad...I think Azelf was being sarcastic ;)

The fact that you had to explain that is annoying. Very annoying indeed.

Anywhoo, we cannot ban it on our own. Despite te overwhelming quality of arguments for banning it, this affects every battler here. What if every other battler outside this group has some sort of arguments for it, and are not for the ban? They would have to go elsewhere, and we want to avoid that. At the very least, they need to see this, and put in their opinion. Then if we ban it, we can say that we had let them post their opinion, and considered it, or at least gave them the chance to put their imput.

[Tortured_Soul]

Can we ask Blueberry to lock this thread and move it to the Wireless Battling Forum? We can have 1 final post with everything summed up, then have a poll or w/e.

Just a thought.

~T_S

[Romo_Owens]

Well first of all, I don't know why whoever posted this brought up Suicune and Slobro as 2 of 3 OU bulky water pokemon... where's Swampert? Meh, whatever, irrelevant.

Anyways Fist of all, when it is said that if we move up Garchomp to Uber no one will use him, I think that's a mistatement. It's shares it's overall base stats with the latis and Mew, plus it outruns the majority of ubers (10 of them, decided not to include Deoxys), and at least one of it's 2 STAB combos takes out Latis, Rayquaza, Giratina, Palkia and Dialga. With Swords Dance, it can OHKO all of them except Giratina. An SDChomp (assuming it's already boosted) would give Groudon a lot of trouble, And it's final moveslot can determine what other Pokemon it can take out. Stone Edge takes out Ho-Oh and Lugia (Mostly Ho-Oh can't really do much to Lugia) and Crunch takes out Mew Deoxys and Mewtwo and is something to work on from wobbuffet (if Garchomp is packing outrage, Crunch is useless). However, Garchomp would run into a problem on setting up SD. To get it, it either needs Mew baton pass support or switch into a Pokemon that is really afraid of it. Really, there's only a few pokemon that would cause it a lot of trouble:Giratina is very hard to take out because of it's walling capabilities and an STAB Garchomp is weak to, Kyogre causes it trouble by packing ice beam, and having no weaknesses to Garchomp, and Lugia, simply, straight out Blocks it. It will want to Watch out for stone edge, but a calm or careful Lugia with a healthy EV boost on defense will take 29-34% (unless SD boosted in which case it may be a problem.
Anyways, I guess I flew off topic. To be honest, I think Garchomp should stay where it is. Of course it's a huge threat throughout the OU enviornment, but it has pokemon tyhat it is afraid of. THe best strategy to use against it is to bring in weavile, Garchomp will be afraid of an ice punch, flee but on it's way out be hit by Pursuit. Bronzong can put it to bed and gyro ball it a few times, jolly or CS Garchomps fall after a couple. And yes Ice attacks aren't all that rare. Donphan packs ice shard, Hippowdon packs Ice Fang, heck even that standard Jolteon can OHKO it with Hidden Power (electric). I know you said that it's wrong to keep a pokemon OU because it would suck at Uber but why make a great Pokemon inferior, when it's just a threat in OU?

[sims796]

To be honest, I think Garchomp should stay where it is. Of course it's a huge threat throughout the OU enviornment, but it has pokemon tyhat it is afraid of. THe best strategy to use against it is to bring in weavile, Garchomp will be afraid of an ice punch, flee but on it's way out be hit by Pursuit. Bronzong can put it to bed and gyro ball it a few times, jolly or CS Garchomps fall after a couple. And yes Ice attacks aren't all that rare. Donphan packs ice shard, Hippowdon packs Ice Fang, heck even that standard Jolteon can OHKO it with Hidden Power (electric). I know you said that it's wrong to keep a pokemon OU because it would suck at Uber but why make a great Pokemon inferior, when it's just a threat in OU?

Maybe you should really read all the damn post that was made. We countered EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE "COUNTERS".

Jolteon cannot switch for it....

Frack it. In fact, READ THE FIRST DAMN POST! Understand it! Hidden Power Electric? What's wrong with you?ONLY A CB ICE SHARD CAN OHKO. Not everyone has that, and it can't wall as much. Hippowdon? IT BOOSTS GARCHOMP BY ACTIVATING SAND VIEL.

Your explainations are half thought, and has been countered already. I am sick of people posting without seeing if there half arsed theories have been countered.

Don't wanna get mean, but seriously. How many times must we deal with this?

[Tortured_Soul]

Can we ask Blueberry to lock this thread and move it to the Wireless Battling Forum? We can have 1 final post with everything summed up, then have a poll or w/e.

Just a thought.

~T_S

How about it sims???

~T_S

[sims796]

Not a damn bad idea, because I've had it up to here _-_(the top one) with all these post that makes no sense, and has no real thought to it.

[Tortured_Soul]

~Why Garchomp Should be Banned~

This thread has been used to discuss whether or not Garchomp should be banned from OU play. Our reasoning is that Garchomp has too few counters, and these counters are never a 100% chance. For instance, if Garchomp is in play with Sandstorm, it's evasion is increased by 20%. This means that a Choice Band Weavile using Ice Shard has a 4/5 chance of hitting Garchomp, which isn't bad, but if it misses, that is good game. Here are some calculations run by the people in Strategies and Movesets:

v ~Choice Band Garchomp~ v



Garchomp@Choice Band
Adamant
252 Atk, 240 Spd, 16 HP (Min)
Sand Veil

Outrage
Earthquake
Stone Edge / Dragon Claw
Fire Blast / Fire Fang / Dragon Claw

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Physical Walls:

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Hippowdon = 49.76% - 58.57%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Weezing = 61.98% - 72.75%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Skarmory = 27.84% - 32.63%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Forretress = 26.27% - 30.79%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Donphan = 53.91% - 63.28%

"Supposed Counters"

Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Weavile = 163.12% - 191.84%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252Spd/6HP +Atk Mamoswine = 107.73% - 126.80%
Outrage vs 252Atk/252HP/6Spd +Spd Mamoswine = 91.98% - 108.25%

"Other"

Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Blissey = 82.21% - 96.64%
Outrage vs 252HP/252Def +Def Swampert = 62.13% - 73.02%
Outrage vs 252HP/8Def +Def Bronzong = 38.17% - 44.97%
Outrage vs 252Def/4HP +Def Wobbuffet = 62.07% - 73.18%


v ~Swords Dance Garchomp~ v


Garchomp@Life Orb
16 HP / 252 ATT / 240 SPEED
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang/Blast

People who think switching steels into Outrages is safe, think again =/

As if the swords dance set wasnt scary enough...

The following are calcs of Life Orb Swords Danced Outrage vs Common steel types

Defender HP: 334
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 43.71% - 51.50%

Max HP/Max Def Impish Skarmory




Defender HP: 338
Damage: 166 - 196
Damage: 49.11% - 57.99%

Max Hp/Max def Impish Bronzong



Defender HP: 404
Damage: 185 - 217
Damage: 45.79% - 53.71%

Max Hp/Max Def + Nature Jirachi


Defender HP: 354
Damage: 146 - 172
Damage: 41.24% - 48.59%

Max HP / Max Def Impish/Relaxed Forretress (With SR this is a 2hko)


Defender HP: 364
Damage: 154 - 181
Damage: 42.31% - 49.73%

Max HP/Max def Impish Metagross


Defender HP: 386
Damage: 177 - 208
Damage: 45.85% - 53.89%

Max HP / Max def Bold Heatran


Non-Steels

Defender HP: 420
Damage: 329 - 387
Damage: 78.33% - 92.14%

Max Hp/max Def Impish hippowdon

Defender HP: 354
Damage: 317 - 372
Damage: 89.55% - 105.08%

Max hp / Max def Impish Gliscor


Defender HP: 334
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 97.60% - 114.67%


Max hp/Max def Bold Weezing


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%


Max hp/Max def Bold Suicune

Defender HP: 394
Damage: 346 - 407
Damage: 87.82% - 103.30%

Max hp/Max def Bold Slowbro


Defender HP: 404
Damage: 336 - 395
Damage: 83.17% - 97.77%

Max HP / Max def Bold Cresselia


Defender HP: 394
Damage: 429 - 504
Damage: 108.88% - 127.92%

Max HP/Max def Impish gyarados (I didnt do bulky gyara, i did this for a laugh)


Defender HP: 384
Damage: 326 - 383
Damage: 84.90% - 99.74%

Max Hp/Max Def Impish Donphan


Note : These ev spreads are not normal, some of these pokemon run less def evs than this, i used Max/Max to demonstrate how nasty this set is.

The good news is that there is ONE steel that does not get 2/3hkod by a sd Outrage on this set, this is : - Max HP / Max def Steelix (31%-37%) =).


Max hp / max def Bastiodon, probopass, Aggron, even Registeel get 3hko'd with sd outrage (Some of these get 2hko's if SR is up =/)

To prove this

Defender HP: 364
Damage: 139 - 163
Damage: 38.19% - 44.78%

Max HP / max def + DEf nature Registeel.

This is what i call Broken, its most common switch ins cannot live more than 2 hits from this set. Even the ones that can, you better pray to god that you havent taken ANY damage throughout the whole battle and that SR/Spikes, are not up.

This set may also bit easy to revenge kill, but i hope you realize that if Sandstorm is up, things may be a little more difficult. Even more so that some/most of these Switch ins, DO NOT HAVE A Recovery move, so cannot come in more than once or twice.


v ~Currently Strong Arguments For Banning~ v


But seriously, the reason Garchomp is being considered is because of a few reasons. Yes, Garchomp has counters, just as all pokemon do. The problem is, because of it's ability, it is able to get around those counters. This means that at no point in time is there ever a guaranteed (100%) chance of a KO. All of Garchomp's "Counters" are still 2-3HKO'd at best. A counter (by definition) is something able to switch in and take minimal damage, with the potential to KO. This pokemon is switching into a STAB'd Choice Band 120 Base attack coming from a base 130 attack stat. You cannot afford to miss in this situation. You may say "But Skarmory/Forretress/Bronzong can easily counter Garchomp", but these pokemon cannot do anything back to Garchomp. If you switch into Outrage, only for it to end, your strategy goes out the window. None of these pokemon have access to a healing move other than rest, so you either lose them, or give your opponent time to set up while you sleep.

The reasoning is, Garchomp has the ability to 6-0 any team. Even its counters need be wary. Revenge Killers such as Weavile and Mamoswine cannot switch into an Outrage, meaning to kill Garchomp you need to sacrifice another pokemon to do so. If Garchomp evades the Ice Shard, you're screwed. Again though, if the Outrage finishes, the Ice Shard option sticks out like...well, you know. Having to sacrifice a pokemon everytime Garchomp comes in is what makes it so hard to counter.

~T_S




SDchomp is walled by bulky waters (EVed correctly, of course). Very few Ice types stand a chance against Garchomp at all (not to mention STAB Earthquake does more anyways), so I would say the covering it's weaknesses thing is...well...overrated. Like everything in my mind is.

My one (and this is the ONE) concern I have is that every Garchomp set can be countered. While countering them is an epic chore with Sand Veil and its unpredictability, Garchomp has been OU long enough that we have shown it can be beaten. You could say that the CB set isn't countered by anything, but you can say that about other CBers as well, and many of them also have other movesets and movepool options.

You could make the case that all Garchomp sets can be handled by more than a few standard pokemon.

That being said, I am leaning more towards the "uber" argument. I just don't think that making decisions at an impulse (not to say research and critical thinking hasn't been done - it has) is a very good idea (just look at what happened with our friend Wobbuffet). At least Garchomp won't hammer the uber metagame like Wobby has hammered standard play though...but that's a whole other story.

I just wanted to state a counter-argument since I do think that before making a decision we should look at this from all angles possible. I actually agree with it going to ubers, but I don't feel as strongly as the others do.



Lets being with some background on Garchomp; a Ground/Dragon pokemon whose ability is Sand Veil, which causes an automatic +20% Evasion in Sandstorm. These are his base stats (Garchomp is a 600 Base Stat Total pokemon)

HP:108
Attack:130
Defense:95
Special Attack:80
Special Defense: 85
Speed:102

Garchomp's most notable moves are Swords Dance, Substitute, Earthquake, Outrage, Dragon Claw, Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Fire Fang, Crunch, and Stone Edge. All of the sets on Smogon's analysis index use a combination of 4 of the above moves.

**Why is Garchomp too broken for OU?**

Before I go any further please note that a pokemon's viability in OU has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with how good a pokemon plays in the Uber metagame. A pokemon can completely suck and be outclassed in Ubers (See regular Deoxys) and this does not matter at all. As long as a pokemon is deemed broken in the OU metagame, it'll be banned to Ubers.

A "counter" is a pokemon that takes little risk when switching into an enemy pokemon and provides an immediate threat.

There are three primary reasons why I believe Garchomp is too broken for the OU metagame and should be moved to Ubers.
1.) Garchomp's excellent movepool and STAB options allow it to beat every single one of its "counters"
2.) Garchomp's excellent defenses and only two weaknesses require Ice/Dragon move users to have a lot of stat points in order to OHKO him.
3.) Sand Veil gives Garchomp +20% evasion under Sandstorm, allowing him to beat otherwise guaranteed counters/revenge killers.

Let me explain each of these points in greater detail.

1.)

The fact that no one pokemon can safely switch into Garchomp is an understatement. Let me present to you damage calculations on how much damage an Adamant Choice Band Garchomp with 252 Attack EV's does to its so called "counters." The most common of which are pokemon with a high Defense stat that are not weak to any of it STAB moves (a counter that's weak to any of Garchomp's STAB isn't going to be a counter much longer). The most common of these pokemon are: Cresselia, Bronzong, Skarmory, Gyarados (Intimidate factored), Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune, Slowbro. The EV spreads I used were either the ones meant to counter Garchomp or the one listed first in the analysis index on Smogon's website.

Using MetalKid's online calculator:
Crunch to 20Hp/252Def Modest Cresselia 53-62%
Fire Fang to 252Hp/4Def Relaxed Bronzong 56-66%
Fire Blast to 252Hp/0SpDef Impish Skarmory 64-75%
Stone Edge to 212Hp/180Def Adamant Gyarados 62-73%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 38-45%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Gliscor 54-64%
Dragon Claw to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Weezing 62-73%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 42-49%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Hippowdon 50-59%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 45-53%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Impish Donphan 54-63%
Earthquake to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 44-52%
Outrage to 252Hp/252Def Bold Suicune 53-63%
Crunch to 252Hp/252Def Bold Slowbro 56-65%

Every single pokemon on this list gets 2hko'd by CB Chomp except for Hippowdon (Hippowdon loses to SD Chomp). The ones that are only 2hko'd by Outrage (which is important cause this means Garchomp can't switch out until it ends) are Gliscor, Weezing, Hippowdon, Donphan, Suicune. None of these pokemon are capable of OHKOing Garchomp with these spreads. This means that all the pokemon without a reliable recovery moves WILL lose because they will get 3hko'd while the try to 2hko Garchomp. That means Suicune is out. Gliscor only wins with Roost (depleting Dragon Claw's pp), Donphan has Ice Shard (and NEEDS CB) to 2hko Garchomp before it gets 3hko'd, Weezing can Will o Wisp Garchomp (pray to good that it lands).

And remember this, if you attempt to revenge kill Garchomp by sacrificing one of the above pokes to Outrage, you also pray that garchomp doesn't get confused after only two turns (which means he can switch out again.)

I hope I've illustrated just how dangerous CBchomp is. The only "counter", Hippowdon, loses to the even more popular form of Garchomp because Swords Danced Earthquake will 2hko Hippowdon before you 2hko with Ice Fang.

CBChomp isn't the only version of Garchomp one must counter, however. Keep in mind that it can SD, SubSD that abuses Sand Veil, Scarf, and Chain Chomp. I'm not gonna post any specifics about the above sets (look on the analysis index to get more details) because I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the CB version. But, these sets provide other options for Garchomp to deal with the OU metgame. Garchomp is no one trick pony.

2.)

Now for all the people who like to revenge kill out there (Completely ignoring that Garchomp has the ability to be Choice Scarfed). First you must beat 333 speed if you are sure Garchomp isn't wearing a Choice Scarf. Second, take into account Garchomp's solid defenses. If your not relying on Ice or Dragon moves to OHKO Garchomp, then good luck because you're going to need it! These are the minimum stats one needs to OHKO Garchomp with the following moves, unSTAB'd: Ice pebble, Ice Fang, Ice Punch, Hidden Power Ice, Ice Beam, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse (I consider these to be the most common moves for dealing with Garchomp). Additionally, this is assuming Garchomp has absolutely no defensive EV's.

693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Pebble
426 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Fang
370 Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Punch
361 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice
266 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Ice Beam
693 Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Claw
567 Special Attack Stat to OHKO with Dragon Pulse

If you want to add in STAB or a Choice Item, divide these numbers by 1.5 or 1.3 for Life Orb. What these numbers suggest is that unless your an Ice type pokemon or going to lock yourself into an Ice move, be prepared to use A LOT of EV's to get your attack stats to these numbers. 2hkoing Garchomp is a little trickier because A.) you have to sometimes account for leftovers, (but just divide these numbers by two) B.) if your faster than Garchomp, must be able to survive an Earthquake or Outrage C.) if your slower than Garchomp, must be able to survive three of the above moves (good luck!)

So if you want to revenge kill Garchomp, be prepared to have amazing attack and speed stats or force yourself to lock into an Ice move (the Choice items can supplement your stat needs). And even once you've met all these requirements...

3.)

Sand Veil grants Garchomp +20% Evasion for free in a Sandstorm. This means that (assuming Sandstorm to be the near-ubiquitous enviroment that it is) at least 1 out 5 times, Garchomp will get a FREE turn because your move will miss. This is also assuming your moves are 100% accurate to begin with! For all those players who attempt to incapacitate Garchomp with WoW, Hypnosis, Sleep/Stun Spore, good luck because your going to need it for those moves to land. Here's a list of how accurate moves are on Garchomp under Sandstorm:

100% accurate moves turn to 80% (Almost all the Ice moves)
95% accurate moves turn to 76% (Ice fang)
90% accurate moves turn to 72% (Draco Meteor, Toxic)
80% accurate moves turn to 64% (Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, etc)
75% accurate moves turn to 60% (Sleep/Stun Spore, WoW)
70% accurate moves turn to 56% (Hypnosis)

So even if you've taken all the necessary precautions, the most dangerous pokemon in the game has at least a 1 in 5 chance to get a completely free turn. Better hope Garchomp isn't abusing Substitute or BrightPowder, that would get insanely frustrating.

There you have it. I've outlined all my reasons for Garchomp being too broken for OU. Now for some counterarguments that I heard in the previous thread.

What about all the countless other pokemon that need more than one "counter"?

Please explain why said pokemon is as dangerous as Garchomp. Most of these double counter pokemon are either really frail or have STAB options much inferior to Garchomp. Remember that Garchomp only has two weaknesses and solid defenses. In addition, Garchomp is immune Thunder Wave and can double his attack at a moment's notice. Please point out all the reasons that another pokemon is even more broken than Garchomp.

But Garchomp is too bad for Ubers and no one will use him there!

Read the big bold thing at the start of this thread (both of them)

Salamence, Tyranitar, Dragonite, etc, are really bulky pokemon that are hard to kill and sweep good, why not ban them?

Like I said, please bring up ways in which said pokemon are superior to Garchomp. Let me give you some examples and how they are worse:
-Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados have a Stealth Rock weakness. This is HUGE. This means that every time that said pokemon switches in, you are 1/4 of a step closer to completely eliminating them (they have to sacrifice coverage to use Roost, dont bring it up). Garchomp actually resists Stealth Rock.
-The 4 main Dragon Dancers need that boost just to outspeed many of their counters (In other words, most bulky pokemon are really slow). Garchomp's speed is already fantastic as its 2 points above all the countless Base 100 speed pokemon.
-Swords Dance is practically the perfect move to aid a fast pokemon with amazing type coverage. All the other threats wish they were as fast and could double their attack stat at a moments notice.
-Garchomp's STAB options absolutely HURT at 150bp and 180bp and are only resisted by two pokemon, Skarmory and Bronzong. This is why most Garchomp's pack fire moves for unparalled type coverage.
-Tyranitar (IMO the only other debateable poke) has five x2 weaknesses and one x4 weak and is really slow. Garchomp has one x2 weak and one x4.

Blissey [insert any pokemon] are more overcentralizing than Garchomp, why arent we banning them?

Blissey isn't broken, and neither are those other pokemon. If you want to debate this, start a thread and list all the reasons why [insert any pokemon] here is broken.

I love Garchomp!

As do I, its the best pokemon in OU. This doesn't mean he isn't broken though, we have to get rid of our biases in order to create the most balanced OU metagame.

I hoped I addressed every issue as to why I think Garchomp is not only the deadliest pokemon in OU, but too broken as well. Just so this thread doesn't die, I would like it if all people in support of my view, or holding a tournament, or whatever would sign this thread with their opinion.

And if you want to argue against me, then go right ahead :) I'm looking forward to the rebuttals.

[Dark Azelf]

Add the first post to that aswell, its explains all the Sandstorm, no counters stuff better, so people can understand better. Give the guy credit though.

[Tortured_Soul]

Ok, well I've done that.

~T_S

[Luke]

Alright closed. Lemme know how everything goes.