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Avey
April 10th, 2008, 06:31 PM
I think most people see the current relationship between humans and pokemon as somewhat immoral. That is, pokemon being taken against their will, keeping them confined most of the time and forcing them to fight other pokemon for no real purpose other than to prove their trainer's tactical brilliance or idiocy. Even the games and anime have some room for that opinion and it has been expressed... a little. So what if the human element of the pokemon world suddenly realized "Hey, pokemon are sentient. They have expressed their ability to think so many times it isn't funny, and saved our arses countless times" and decided "we really should try to seek better relations with them." There are a million and one good reasons for doing so. Not the least of which is the very saftey of humanity. We've all read the revolution fanfics, and pokemon revolution against humans is not unthinkable. In small scale it happened with Mewtwo. Plus I think the exploitation must run deeper than what is shown. I for one and am convinced that some kind of mind control device exists in the pokeballs and badges that silph isn't talking about. It's the only way you can explain why most pokemon are so obediant as soon as they're caught. Think about it. Is it like some unwritten rule that a pokemon caught must obey? Did humans and pokemon sign a pact or something? Of course not, yet especially in the game as soon as a newly caught pokemon comes out of the ball it's your gung-ho servant. That is, unless the pokeball's mind device needs another badge to make it stronger.

So, what if humans decided to cast away the exploitation and welcome pokemon as equals. How could this be done? It creates some unique problems, like regards food. What will humans eat? Will everyone become vegans? I sure hope not, but in the real world at least it has always been our unwritten rule that if ever we found and animal that could think we wouldn't eat it. So the question should be, are all pokemon fully sentient, or are some more than others? If so I could see an alliance between humans and the more carnivorous types who would probably be smarter.

Another problem would be social. How do you intergrate pokemon and human society? Could a sentient pokemon vote for the president. Could he run for president? What about communication? What about occupation?

spike6958
April 10th, 2008, 07:13 PM
Umm, they are just animals in a video game/anime/manga series and as such they have no rights as they don't really exists and they are not going to revolt against anyone unless Nintendo decide and this is Nintendo where talking about the chances are that will never happen and if it did who would care as long as it was enjoyable to the player/watcher/reader, i just don't get why people seem to think Pokemon are real and ask stupid questions about equality, or go on stupid rants about how it's wrong to imprison Pokemon inside Pokeballs when we all know they are not real and anyone who thinks they are should be sent to the nut house right away.

airconditioning
April 10th, 2008, 07:19 PM
You forget, Oni, that the Pokemon land is a magical world of gumdrops and rainbows. Pokemon are completely happy the way they are.

Also, spike, you're stupid.

Avey
April 10th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Umm, they are just animals in a video game/anime/manga series and as such they have no rights as they don't really exists and they are not going to revolt against anyone unless Nintendo decide and this is Nintendo where talking about the chances are that will never happen and if it did who would care as long as it was enjoyable to the player/watcher/reader, i just don't get why people seem to think Pokemon are real and ask stupid questions about equality, or go on stupid rants about how it's wrong to imprison Pokemon inside Pokeballs when we all know they are not real and anyone who thinks they are should be sent to the nut house right away.

Ever hear of the phrase hypethetically thinking?

You forget, Oni, that the Pokemon land is a magical world of gumdrops and rainbows. Pokemon are completely happy the way they are.

Also, spike, you're stupid.

Do I? How do we know that the Pokèmon land is a magical world of gumdrops and rainbows? They could just be hiding the truth from us! Maybe the Pokèmon aren't happy but are too scared to speak out!

Some intelligent debater is going to come in here and think that my last paragraph didn't contain jokes.

Amp
April 11th, 2008, 09:19 AM
You forget, Oni, that the Pokemon land is a magical world of gumdrops and rainbows. Pokemon are completely happy the way they are.

Also, spike, you're stupid.

You're looking at a world in which a 1ft tall cat can breed with a Titanic-sized whale and you're wondering if they want rights? Apparently, Pokemon are too stupid to even realize th ebasic laws of nature, much less natural rights.

GunSaberSeraph
April 11th, 2008, 09:33 AM
in D/P, if you go to the library in canalave city, there's a book that explins why pokemon obey humans that catch them. i might be wrong, i might be right. i don't care. if you want you can just pass it off as
"A wizard did it"

Twinx
April 11th, 2008, 09:59 AM
I can believe I'm reading an analysis by a 13 year old...
oh wait that's Oni.. that explains it =)

You make some good points oni, especially with the badge thing.
But I think that's explainable by what you said yourself:
They have expressed their ability to think so many times it isn't funny
Pokemon are smart.. they know what a badge means and how valuable it is.
When it comes to the games, it's just how the game is programed. Though I won't reject the theory that pokeballs brainwash pokemon (hey maybe that's why Pikachu hates pokeballs ^^)

That's all I can think of for now.. I'm too tired/lazy to continue :P or maybe I have nothing else to say

Espreon
April 11th, 2008, 01:20 PM
I think mind control does not exist in the badges, I think the badges simply represent merit. If the trainer does not have the certain badge necessary to have it obey then the Poke must not see the trainer worthy enough to command it.

Just think of it like a lieutenant trying to give orders to a general.

For the matter of fact I believe there is no mind control involved I think the captured Pokemon has nothing better to do...

Astinus
April 11th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Not all Pokemon caught suddenly obey their trainer, if you look at either anime canon or game canon. When Ash first started his journey, Pikachu didn't obey him until Ash proved that he could be trusted. It was the same thing with Charizard. Ash had to prove to his Pokemon that he could be trusted, and that he could be respected.

As for the games, notice how traded Pokemon need to see that the trainer is able to be respected, and that you need more badges in order to command them.

In any form of canon, it hasn't been really explained why Pokemon obey humans when Pokemon have those super special powers and some are even smarter than a human (Alakazam) or have the same intelligence as a human (Dragonite and even TR's Meowth).

That's one of the fun parts that I had exploring my Pokemon in my fanfiction. The best explanation that I could come up with is that Pokemon see their human trainers as a helper, allowing them to get stronger by bringing to them stronger opponents (either wild Pokemon they would never see otherwise, or other trained Pokemon). Besides, trained Pokemon also have the advantage in battle of having a human watch out for them.

Oni, I'm not touching your last paragraph or the comments made by other people with a ten mile pole.

Motsuko Live
April 11th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Or possibly, Pokemon just have some natural respect for humans. I know, sounds kind of corny, but if brainwashing is possible, then anything is. =]

I don't think Pokemon have demonstrated the ability to "think" any more than dogs or cats, or any other animal for that matter, can think. Yeah, sure, maybe with their super-awesome attacks like lighting coming out of their faces, or razor sharp leafs flying out of their backs, they've shown some greater power than cats or dogs, but no more intelligence. Think about it; what have they done that makes them so intelligent? They're true to their trainers? So are *some* dogs. Because they have the ability to show compassion? All beings have the ability to do that (though some choose not to). In a way, they're just like regular pets. There's no law saying that Pokemon will or won't obey humans. If you care for your Pokemon (this sounds really corny, right here) and respect it, then your Pokemon will love and respect you, making it want to obey your orders. Not because it has to, because it wants to. This is why some Pokemon don't obey some trainers; because they don't want to. Because it's an issue of wanting to, or not wanting to, there's no way of saying a Pokemon is absolutley, 100% going to obey you.

Anyways, that's what I think about it. Very interesting topic, Oni :]
Mo Live

Astinus
April 11th, 2008, 02:06 PM
they've shown some greater power than cats or dogs, but no more intelligence.
Alakazam's Pokedex entry said that is has a 5000 IQ and can outperform a super computer. It can also memorize anything and calculate in battle.

Dragonite's Pokedex entry said that it has the same intelligence as a human.

And I really don't think one can deny that Team Rocket's Meowth is smarter than the average house cat. My two cats aren't running around using mechas, making plans that two humans don't think of, and using a stove to cook in a restaurant.

Canon, in some way or the other, shows that Pokemon are as intelligent as humans, and that some are even smarter. They really can't be said to have the same intelligence as the animals they are based off of.

And yes, Pokemon intelligence debates are always something I get involved in.

spike6958
April 11th, 2008, 02:08 PM
You forget, Oni, that the Pokemon land is a magical world of gumdrops and rainbows. Pokemon are completely happy the way they are.

Also, spike, you're stupid.

This coming from someone who thinks Pokemon are real creatures, or at least treats them as such, you need to grow up and stop living in an imaginary world.

Avey
April 11th, 2008, 02:16 PM
This coming from someone who thinks Pokemon are real creatures, or at least treats them as such, you need to grow up and stop living in an imaginary world.

I think Spike needs to learn what hypthetically speaking means.

Espreon
April 11th, 2008, 02:17 PM
This coming from someone who thinks Pokemon are real creatures, or at least treats them as such, you need to grow up and stop living in an imaginary world.

What makes you think AC thinks Pokes are real?!?

spike6958
April 11th, 2008, 02:24 PM
What makes you think AC thinks Pokes are real?!?

First of all i don't see how it's any of your business, but if you must know it's because he called me stupid for saying there not, anyone who calls someone stupid for saying something isn't real must obliviously think that they are because otherwise they would have no reason to say it.

shadowking93
April 11th, 2008, 02:36 PM
well, i have an explanation to this as well. i think pokemon listen to their trainer because the trainer has proved they are worthy. I mean think about it...you have to weaken it, showing your strong. throwing a pokeball shows your determined and have faith i catching it. The pokemon uses all its strength to break free, so catching it shows your the alpha male:badsmile:! anyway, pokemon require a trainer to prove they are able to defeat and catch.

basically, in english, a wild pokemon wants proof that you are tough. or, it wants to be taken out of a bad home. thats my explanation, top that(and gamefreak does not make pokemon able to be taken!)

Espreon
April 11th, 2008, 02:40 PM
First of all i don't see how it's any of your business, but if you must know it's because he called me stupid for saying there not, anyone who calls someone stupid for saying something isn't real must obliviously think that they are because otherwise they would have no reason to say it.

Well he did not specify the reason he called you stupid. Also everything is my business and stuff.

airconditioning
April 12th, 2008, 04:36 AM
This coming from someone who thinks Pokemon are real creatures, or at least treats them as such, you need to grow up and stop living in an imaginary world.

Alright, you're twelve years old, and you want to look cool in front of all these people by showing that you're smart enough to know that Pokemon don't really exist. The problem is, due to the fact that you're twelve, you can't see that it actually makes you look retarded. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Gamerman/Image%20Macros/yelwacko.gif

And Pokemon are real. You just need to expand your mind. Someday, the Pokemon World will be opened up to us humans. But until then, I know that Pokemon exist. >:(

solopy567
April 12th, 2008, 06:09 AM
Exactly...Who knows? they might exist in the future or somethings..We don't know and we cant know because as far as we know they are imaginary.....However, you do know that some pokemon are based off of real animals, like Kabuto is based of the extinct species of Trilobites....It still doesn't prove anything, but it might happen.

Avey
April 12th, 2008, 02:16 PM
First of all i don't see how it's any of your business, but if you must know it's because he called me stupid for saying there not, anyone who calls someone stupid for saying something isn't real must obliviously think that they are because otherwise they would have no reason to say it.

Yes, but we said if Pokèmon were real, so you acted like an idiot by obviously not reading my first post.

Storm-DC
April 12th, 2008, 05:35 PM
I named my team after revolutionaries, so of course I will be taking the lead in the Pokemon Liberation Front. We will have flags, t-shirts and scarves! Actually, when you look at animal activists (200.000 people voted on the 'animal party' during the dutch national elections, thats 2 seats in the HoR) i'm sure there'd be people fighting for 'pokemon rights'. But hey, in every game the professor starts about how men and pokemon live in perfect harmony, so you can really go all ways in this debate.

hmmm... what would Obama and Clinton say about it. lets march to washington!