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View Full Version : Thesis's OT fic guide: "What not to include", Part One


Scarlet Weather
June 6th, 2008, 09:30 AM
We all know the story: Trainer wakes up, trainer is late/early/on time, trainer eats breakfast, trainer runs to the Professor's lab (or equivalent place), trainer receives first Pokemon, trainer goes on a journey. On said journey, trainer defeats all eight gyms in order while battling the evil henchmen of Team Blank who plot to destroy the world or some other nefarious scheme by using the power of Blank, which is either an ancient, powerful Pokemon or a new weapon. Along the way, Trainer makes friends, catches Pokemon, watches them evolve, and battles hundreds of wild Pokemon and opposing trainers. At the end of the story, trainer ultimately saves the world from imminent destruction, or becomes League Champion. Possibly both.

If you have never read a Pokemon fanfic with this basic set-up, you are obviously very new to this fandom, or an inexperienced author. Ninety percent of all Pokemon stories with original characters (as opposed to canon characters from the anime) follow this pattern. So much so, in fact, that they have become predictable, bland, and extremely boring to read. As the saying goes, "read one mediocre OT fic, and you've read them all".

"But my OT fic is different!" I hear you exclaim. "Can't you see how different it is from the others? My fanfic has a girl as the main character!" Or, "My fic has an evil team that isn't necessarily evil!" Or "Mine ends with the main character not becoming League Champion, or saving the world!" I have a newsflash for all of you: This is the internet. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, writing Pokemon fanfics. Chances are that at least one of those hundreds of thousands or millions of people is not only writing a Pokemon fanfic with an extremely similar plot to yours, but unless you have evidence that proves otherwise there is a very good chance that this person is doing a better job of it than you are. Even in fics that are large departures from the standard OT fic, there's a surprising amount of authors writing stories with almost paralell plots. Of course, the stories aren't exactly the same. The writing styles and characters of both authors usually differ at least slightly. But that does not change the fact that both fics are almost exactly the same in terms of basic concept. If fics that are relatively unique are similar in terms of plot, what do you think an often-used concept like the OT fic will look like?

Moving on from that, I'm going to show you a few examples of common cliches in the OT genre. By avoiding these, you will be able to distance your fic from the hundreds of similar ones floating around on the internet somewhat, as well as maximising your chances of it looking good in the eyes of reviewers. Eliminating these things from your fic will do something else as well: They will challenge you to be creative. You will need to come up with things to fill in the gaps, different starting points, or invent new ways to accomplish the same ends without being trite. Well, let's get started, shall we?

Let's Talk Professors!

Most people state that when they go to a professor to get Pokemon they are following "Anime Canon" or "Game Canon". However, most people tend to use the standard anime beginning: They wake up, and discover that they are late or almost late, then rush to the professor's. There, they receive either their choice of starter or the last one available. There are three things wrong with this picture.

First, waking up late and going to the professor is neither canonical to the anime or the game. In the anime, trainers do receive Pokemon from the professor at a designated time. However, many trainers disregard this entirely. They receive their first Pokemon from a relative, or run around trying to capture one by using more "creative" methods than battling it. Many trainers in the anime have simply "caught" their starter Pokemon with no outside help. In terms of games, the Professor gives Pokemon only to trainers that he needs to do something for him, or as a thank-you to them. In Red, Blue, and Yellow, Oak gives you Pokemon because he wants you to do something for him after seeing you move into the tall grass. Possibly, he thinks since you want to go out of town, you'd be perfect to go fill up his Pokedex. In RSE, your character saves the professor and he gives you a Pokemon as a thank-you, then asks you to help with his Pokedex. In Diamond and Pearl, you're given a Pokemon after the Professor decides they're really useless as research specimens, and he wants you to fill out his Pokedex. In Gold and Silver, you get one in order to make a delivery for Professor Elm. And you get a Pokedex. Are you starting to see a common thread here? The game professors do not give away Pokemon to starting trainers left and right. They give them to specific trainers in order to help them fill out the Pokedex or accomplish some similar task.

Aside from the fact that "Wake up and grab Pokemon" isn't always canonical, it's overdone. There are several problems with the scenario, the first one being "waking up". Unless you are a fan of reading about trainers eating a suitably generic breakfast, usually including bacon (and it's ALWAYS bacon. You would not believe the number of OT stories I've read including a breakfast of bacon. I don't know what it is, but it seems like every single one involves bacon). How exciting. Please, unless it reveals some hidden secret depth of your character's consciousness, you can skip right over this. There is no need to throw in unneeded details such as eating breakfast. It slows the pace of the story down, and does nothing to capture the reader's attention. In fact, all it does is prove to us that your character really likes bacon. Do us all a favor: do not show this.

Now, I'm going to give you a radical piece of advice over your character receiving their first Pokemon:

Skip it.

You heard me right. I said skip over that part of the story entirely. Starting the story In Medias Res not only allows you to get to the meat of the story faster, it also eliminates the need to write an obligatory first battle or go through the tedium of explaining where your character's team comes from right away. Preferably, you can reveal this part of the story through flashbacks, and only when it becomes completely necessary for you to do so. It's actually much more entertaining to the reader than forcing them to sit through a scene that they've most likely read at least fifteen times before.

Love at first sight, or "The Completely deluded Starter Pokemon".

Never, never, never establish any bond closer than a tentative friendship or partnership between your character and starter at the story's beginning if you choose to begin at they very beginning of the journey. If the character and Pokemon have an unbreakable bond from the start, or form one before even entering the next town, it will seem artificial and forced. Even if the Pokemon respects the trainer enough to obey commands, he may not see him as a friend until the journey is almost over. Remember, friendships take time to build. Unless you start in the middle of the character's journey, his relationship with his starter needs to be built up over the course of the story.

I saved you, now love me!

How many times have I read this? A trainer saves a Pokemon who was injured somehow, and they immediately love him and trust him and want to travel with him. May Zeus and the rest of the Greek Pantheon serve as my non-existent witnesses as I call down curses upon the over-use of this cliche, and its complete departure from reality. It isn't so much the rescue of an injured Pokemon that I mind about this cliche, it's the fact that it becomes devoted to the trainer. First of all, the trainer only found the Pokemon. He had no direct role in nursing it back to health- if anything, I'd think the Pokemon would be more greatful to whatever Nurse Joy was helping to heal it when it was sick. After all, despite their identical appearance, Joys are people with emotions. If they are the ones nursing the Pokemon back to health, the Pokemon probably won't just forget about them. More importantly, oftentimes these Pokemon have been abused by human trainers. Don't you think that if you were abused and left to die, you wouldn't be so trusting? If I were that Pokemon, I would probably rather die than let a human take care of me. In fact, I'd be preaching to all the other Pokemon I met that humans were a nasty, brutish race of people that think only about fighting, and urge them to rebel. It's depressing, but true.

Rant, rant, rant.

When a trainer finds an abused Pokemon, there is usually a period of time where the trainer rants to whoever is nearby, usually the generic Joy, that trainers who abuse Pokemon are the scum of the earth and deserve to die, all the while slyly implying that they would never do such a thing. Yeah, yeah, whatever. If your only method for establishing your character's "good" credentials is to have them rant about how abusing Pokemon is bad, it's time for a re-write. If you can find anyone who actually thinks that abusing Pokemon is a good thing, then feel free to put a rant like this in your fic. If not, however, you can skip it. We already know this. If you want to insert a rant, please make it about something people may disagree with your character on or not realize. If you want to make your character seem nice and caring, have them do what actual nice and caring people do: give them a background in volunteer work or community service. Don't expect us to accept that your character is a moral paragon because of their stand on Pokemon Abuse.

Talk to the animals... and the animals will talk to you.

Pokespeech. In order to avoid robotic Pokemon, the easiest way to give them personalities is to have them "speak human". Or rather, to translate their remarks so that both trainer and Pokemon understand them. Generally, there are two ways of explaining how the trainer understands what his Pokemon are saying, and both of them are equally shaky.

First Way: Trainer gets a machine that magically translates what his Pokemon are saying. The usual explanation is that these machines are either common, or they're prototypes designed by the protagonist's father (never his mother, as far as I know) who works at either Silph or Devon, whichever one is appropriate for the region. First of all, this seems contrived. Both methods make it seem like the only reason that they were put into the story at all was to make it easier for the trainer to communicate with his Pokemon. The second one is even worse, because it makes it seem as if the father's connection to Silph or Devon is only introduced to give the trainer this magical talky-device. If you intend to include either of these objects in your story, the best way of avoiding a cliche is to make them more important. Perhaps the translators are a machine only available to richer trainers? Or perhaps your character's father is an inventor whose ideas rarely work out, and this is his first real success, so he wants them to test it? Who knows. But please, make this more than just a two-line throwaway.

Second Way: Trainer knows how to speak to Pokemon, either through some special power or by learning it in school. Or he is able to understand his own Pokemon from being around them a long time and reading their body language. I'll admit, I happen to think that learning Pokemon as a second language is completely batty. Pokemon, as I understand it, is probably a tonal dialect if it's a language at all, and probably involves many body-language nuances that it would be extremely hard to learn all of. If anything, it could take years to learn Poke-speech. Special powers might be important to the plot, but if they aren't part of the plot of the story they make your character look like a Mary/Gary-Sue. This, obviously, is not a good thing.

The best way, in my opinion, to translate what Pokemon are saying is not to really "translate" it. If your character is an experienced trainer, then perhaps they might be able to guess what their Pokemon is "saying" with some degree of accuracy. Either that, or develop a new language for both to speak that draws from both English and Poke-Speech. Pidgin languages are always fun to develop, and if you can develop one that makes sense, then you can not only solve the problem of communication with your Pokemon but also wow everyone with your language-creating skills. However, any method of explaining how humans and Pokemon are able to speak to each other can be used, presuming that its presence in the plot is not simply to allow them to speak to each other.

I Trainer, your Pokemon! I catch, you travel!

As Farla of fanfiction.net has so often pointed out in her parodies of the OT genre (a must-read), sometimes Pokemon will say no. Not every Pokemon your trainer captures will want to go with him. If your trainer says "Well, being with a trainer can be fun!" or "Trainers aren't like you think they are," he is basically rejecting the Pokemon's ability to choose for itself. He has said to it, "You are stupid and don't know anything, now come with me." If your trainer does this, and the Pokemon not only comes with him but actually enjoys it, you have committed a crime of fantasy racism by implying that all humans know better than Pokemon what is good for them. Pokemon have lives outside of being caught and trained, you know. If your character captures a Pokemon and they don't want to go with it, unless you want to show that your character is selfish and cruel and write the scene to depict it as such, you really shouldn't have him keep the Pokemon. In addition, you may want to give reasons as to why the Pokemon who do stay with your trainer stay with him. Perhaps it's as simple as "Hey, he has food!" or "Well, I didn't have anything better to do, and I might get stronger if I eventually decide to return home, so..."

Now, notice that the thread's title calls this "Part One" of my guide. And so it is. However, Part Two will be posted in this thread. Not any other thread. This one. Merged with this post, if necessary. So DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL.

THIS GUIDE IS THE ONLY THESIS-APPROVED GUIDE TO AVOIDING CLICHES. ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES. UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE THAT THE SUBSTITUTES ARE BETTER THAN THIS THESIS-APPROVED GUIDE. THEN YOU ARE OKAY.

Bay Alexison
June 8th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Hm, you know what's weird? At another forum the members are also talking about some OT cliches.

I'll say that I agreed on most of them, but there's one thing I want to point out.

If I were that Pokemon, I would probably rather die than let a human take care of me. In fact, I'd be preaching to all the other Pokemon I met that humans were a nasty, brutish race of people that think only about fighting, and urge them to rebel. It's depressing, but true.

In my ophinion, I think that's overused too. Many times if a Pokemon thinks that, than eventually there's going to be a trainer who will prove to them that they're nice and it either ends happily or tragically. True, I understand your criticism of Pokemon suddenly bonding fast, but I still think a Pokemon hating all humans is a bit much too. Maybe there are Pokemon that wants to go with trainers for whatever reason as you mentioned before.

Other than that, looking forward to Part II. :)

Scarlet Weather
June 12th, 2008, 05:30 PM
Eh, Bay, you're misinterpreting what I meant about abused Pokemon. I'm saying that having an abused Pokemon react with immediate devotion to whoever saved it is somewhat illogical, and it would be more likely that the Pokemon would have a grudge against humans in general, or at least the one particular human who harmed it. But you are right- "teaching the Pokemon about trainers who love it" is another OT fic cliche. Which brings me to the long-awaited second part of my guide...

PART TWO! DA-NA-NA-NA!!!!

Last time, I outlined a good number of the cliches presented in OT fics. Today, I'll be outlining a few more. Let's start with the one Bay pointed out.

But Trainers are nice!

Let's get something straight here: I am not a "trainer-hater". I do not think the concept of being a Pokemon trainer is somehow immoral. I do, however, think that in the context of the Pokemon world it should be considered wrong for a trainer to simply override a Pokemon's wishes and capture it despite the Pokemon's apparent feelings. Yet, in many OT fics this is exactly what happens. A Pokemon is captured, who for some reason has an intense dislike for most if not all humans. It is captured by the main character. The Pokemon has an intense dislike for the main trainer at first and demands, sometimes violently, to be released. So the trainer, respecting the wishes of the Pokemon and trusting it to be capable of making its own choices, sets it free and wishes it on its merry way. Right? Wrong. Ninety percent of the time, the Pokemon is "educated" by the trainer on how humans are really very nice people and only certain humans are bad (usually ones wearing fancy uniforms and calling themselves "Team Something"). The Pokemon then comes to realize that it was in the wrong, and happily leaves its former life behind, despite the fact that it might have been protecting or providing for its family, and goes to be with the trainer. This is called "friendship".

Please, for the love of all that is logical, don't include this in your fanfic unless you're trying to show the hypocricy of it. If your main character is supposed to be a good person who considers Pokemon his equals, don't have him do something that shows his beliefs to be contrary. Once again, Farla of fanfiction.net has written many fics that parody this extensively, including Lucki, an extremely well-thought-out parody of what Farla calls the "Middling Sue".

Hero=Good

This is probably the worst thing you can do when trying to write a fic that includes well-rounded characters. Some authors- no scratch that, a good number of them- judge the morality of a given action based on what the hero of the story would or wouldn't do. If the main character wouldn't capture a Pokemon by building a trap that could quite possibly injure it, then anyone else in the story who does that is automatically wrong. Never mind that the main character captured the vast majority of his Pokemon by injuring them, albeit indirectly. Also, anyone who opposes the main character is wrong, for any reason. This isn't a problem in Pokemon fanfiction alone. Even in the world of published writing, many authors do this. May I direct your attention to Christopher Paolini?

There are two major problems with doing this in any story. The first is that the main character starts to sound preachy and boring, and you start rooting for the other side. The second is that the world starts to revolve around the main character, transforming them into an irredeemable "Mary-Sue". (For more on the subject of Sues, the Wikipedia article is actually very well-written and quite informative. Alternatively, a simple Google search will probably bring up several articles, along with a thousand or so "Litmus Tests".) If your story has a main character who is a "Sue", readers will definitely be turned off, to say the least. Why? Because Mary-Sues are boring characters, and hard for the reader to relate to emotionally. They don't act like real people, they don't think like real people, and yet somehow the author wants you to care about what would happen to them as if they were real people. See the problem?

My name is Kitsune! It means "Fox" in Japanese!

Many fans, knowing Pokemon is from Japan, try to make their OT story "different" by including the use of Japanese honoratives and names. Unfortunately, many of these people know absolutely nothing about Japanese culture. Aside from the honoratives and names, which are often extremely generic, everything else could have come from America. In fact, I've seen references to distinctly western customs side-by-side with characters named such things as "Yuki" and "Sasuke". (Which reminds me: under no circumstances should anyone ever attempt a crossover between Pokemon and Naruto. Please. It does not work. EVER.) If you want your story to be authentic, don't use Japanese unless you actually know a little more about the language than a few things about honoratives, or you have extensive knowledge of the country beyond what you know from manga. (Remember, real writers actually do research on what they're writing to avoid factual error, so we aren't exempt. Besides, the internet is an amazing resource.)

And on day four, I found a penny!

Just a comment? Battles that do not advance the story do not need to be included. If you're including a battle just to show your character's "advancement so far", or to show that they're training their Pokemon, but nothing else, all you're doing is boring your readers- especially if it's early on in the fic. A battle consisting of nothing but yelling "Dodge it!" or "Use Scratch" is pretty dang boring. When you do include Pokemon battles, try to make them as exciting as possible. And for the love of Tolkien, please do not make references to "HP" being "in the red". You're writing about something that's actually going on, not transcribing a video game. Which brings me to my next point...

Game transcription.

Sometimes reading stories following the plot of the games is fun, don't get me wrong. But when every event follows the game exactly, and not much is done to differentiate the story from an exact transcription of the game, it gets boring. We all know the game story. We've played it. We're members of the fandom. If you're going to transcribe the game, you need to be doing it from an extremely different angle. The OT story just isn't suited for this.

Aim for the Horn!

Make sure your strategy in Pokemon battles makes some sort of sense, and try to stick to canon as closely as possible in terms of what moves Pokemon can and can't learn. Something like countering Rock Slide with Rock Smash or a newly-caught Pokemon defeating most opponents through the use of Frustration? Makes sense. Something like a Charizard using EXPLOSION of all moves to defeat opponents- without fainting- or a newborn baby Eevee fainting a much more powerful Manetric because it loves the trainer very much and uses a super-powered Return attack? Not so much. (Credit to Alter Ego for bringing this to everyone's attention long before I did and the baby Eevee example. Credit to Jax Malcolm for the Exploding Charizard. And yes, those were actually in fics for those of you who didn't know before.)

Defeat=Friendship

All characters defeated by the main character, unless they are clearly evil and therefore cannot switch sides, join the main character's party or wish him well. There is no resentment, no jealousy, no reaction beyond "Oh, I just got my butt handed to me on a silver platter. Well, better luck next time!" Or, in extreme cases, "Let's travel together!". This is illogical, and happens to often.

Well, not compared to...

Defeat=Assasination

The opposite extreme. Every trainer your character defeats becomes jealous of him and plots to kill him in his sleep, or beat him in their next encounter by cheating, or something. Please, leave both extremes alone.

I am not left-handed!

The main character wins a battle by revealing some incredible skill that they were hiding the whole time. Er.... I'm all for strategy, but something like "by the way, I'm only using thirty percent of my actual power!" or "My REAL strongest Pokemon is actually this one!" over and over again is almost as boring as reading transcriptions of in-game battles. Maybe teaching your Pokemon to use Defog in order to prepare them for battling a gym leader famous for using smokescreen and haze would be appropriate. But "I suddenly reveal my true strength!" gets annoying after a while.

Alright... part two was rather dull. Part three will be better, I promise!

Oh, wait, that's another one.

I promise the next chapter will be better!

Never say this, because nine times out of ten, it won't be.

Alter Ego
June 13th, 2008, 08:11 AM
Umm...thes, mind if I interject? :3

While I do agree with most of the points you've raised here, I do have a few small objections:

1. The pokéspeech thing? I seem to recall Gale having a rather eloquent chat with his Scizor which didn't just involve the trainer roughly "guessing" the meaning of his pokémon's words but actually completing the latter's sentence ("You are the shogun and I am just a humble ronin", I think the entire phrase went?). Not to be mean, but this makes your own comment on the learning of pokéspeech being "batty" sound slightly hypocritical.

2. The spiteful villain...it's not like it's an inviolable taboo that will immediately damn your story beyond the reach of all correction, you know. For some characters (usually antagonists) it is perfectly in-character to want to take vengeance on those who have humiliated them (take, for instance, Knight Rose from Midsummer Knights). The problem, as you pointed out, arises when everyone the hero meets seems to share these personality traits.

3. There's a danger of over-saviness here. Yes, all of these things you mentioned are clichés, and yes, they do tend to detract from the quality of the story, but sometimes you can actually get away with playing a cliché or two and still end up with an enjoyable fanfic. (A certain FFotM comes to mind here) If you avoid everything that you perceive as cliché like the plague you are essentially succumbing to a kind of inverse of the problem, which makes your story just as predictable and - arguably - boring as one that is pure cliché. (I.e. We know that the character will have a bad starting relationship with their starter, know that the defeated antagonist won't declare a vendetta against them, know that the character won't get their starter from the lab etc.) Personally, I think clichés are something that should be acknowledged, but only censored where they actually detract from the appeal of the story. If a clichéd villain works for a plot's purposes there's really no reason to shoehorn another one into its place.


Okay, yeah, enough picking on your writing. It's a good guide and an enjoyable read, and as someone who is currently still drafting up the first chapters of an OT I have to say that it's given me something to think about. Good job. ^^

Scarlet Weather
June 13th, 2008, 07:45 PM
Umm...thes, mind if I interject? :3

While I do agree with most of the points you've raised here, I do have a few small objections:

1. The pokéspeech thing? I seem to recall Gale having a rather eloquent chat with his Scizor which didn't just involve the trainer roughly "guessing" the meaning of his pokémon's words but actually completing the latter's sentence ("You are the shogun and I am just a humble ronin", I think the entire phrase went?). Not to be mean, but this makes your own comment on the learning of pokéspeech being "batty" sound slightly hypocritical.

2. The spiteful villain...it's not like it's an inviolable taboo that will immediately damn your story beyond the reach of all correction, you know. For some characters (usually antagonists) it is perfectly in-character to want to take vengeance on those who have humiliated them (take, for instance, Knight Rose from Midsummer Knights). The problem, as you pointed out, arises when everyone the hero meets seems to share these personality traits.

3. There's a danger of over-saviness here. Yes, all of these things you mentioned are clichés, and yes, they do tend to detract from the quality of the story, but sometimes you can actually get away with playing a cliché or two and still end up with an enjoyable fanfic. (A certain FFotM comes to mind here) If you avoid everything that you perceive as cliché like the plague you are essentially succumbing to a kind of inverse of the problem, which makes your story just as predictable and - arguably - boring as one that is pure cliché. (I.e. We know that the character will have a bad starting relationship with their starter, know that the defeated antagonist won't declare a vendetta against them, know that the character won't get their starter from the lab etc.) Personally, I think clichés are something that should be acknowledged, but only censored where they actually detract from the appeal of the story. If a clichéd villain works for a plot's purposes there's really no reason to shoehorn another one into its place.


Okay, yeah, enough picking on your writing. It's a good guide and an enjoyable read, and as someone who is currently still drafting up the first chapters of an OT I have to say that it's given me something to think about. Good job. ^^

Oh, you're still here? Well, you can just bugger off. XD

Hmm... I do have three responses to your three nitpicks, and I'm glad you brought them up.

1. In "Thief in the Night", so far, Gale's "Pokespeech" translation has not been explained. However, I will say without giving too much away that the translations of Pokespeech given in "Thief in the Night" are what Gale perceives his Pokemon to be saying, not necessarily direct translations of what's being said. (It would also explain why Laertes referred to Gale as his "Shogun" in that sentence and Gale then called him a "Ronin", or samurai without a master. 0.o) And now you've gone and made me spoil a little bit of the exposition I had planned for chapter three, dang you. >.<

2. Couldn't agree more. "Defeat=Friendship" and "Defeat=Assasination" were about mass reactions of love or animosity as opposed to ones explainable by certain characters. Besides, in the fanfic you've mentioned, the situation adequately explains why everyone Viola defeats would be out to get her.

3. In retrospect, I should have said something along these lines from the beginning. I'll go ahead and say it now, folks: Avoid cliches when possible, but don't go to the opposite extreme of avoiding everything. Even a cliche, when used properly, can turn into a wonderful story. The problem comes when everything in the fic is cliche after cliche after cliche. Just as Mary-Sue characters aren't usually annoying because of one specific trait, a fic isn't made bad by one cliche. In both cases, it's the sum of the parts that really causes bad reactions from readers and reviewers. My goal in writing this is not to say "None of these things should ever be used in fanfiction". My goal is to create an easily accessible list of cliches so that you can look at your fic and catch problems before posting. Nothing more, nothing less.

And thanks for the compliments, because I really need them. :3

EDIT: I had forgotten that Gale completed Laertes's sentence, as opposed to Laertes saying the whole phrase in that chapter, since in my rough draft Laertes says the whole phrase on his own. Whoops. 0.o So yeah, changed in order to better reflect that. Also, confession? I didn't really think about how weird it would be for a human to learn Pokespeech on his own was until after I started writing chapter two of "Thief in the Night".

Grovyle42(Griff8416)
June 16th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Wow, haven't posted here in a long while. But since I'm writing my fic again and it's almost summer, I'd might as well do so.

This was a quite well thought out list, I must say. I admit that I've fallen victim to a few cliches (though none cringingly bad, I hope.)

Did you include overdone starters? (apart from the traditional 12) Some that come to mind are eeveeeeveeeevee, and occasionally legendaries.

Matt11
June 21st, 2008, 12:21 PM
I like your guide, I want to start a fanfic myself and what u wrote really helps.
Thanks for writting :D

I'd also like to see overdone starters in chapter 3!!!

Also, shouldnt u change the name since u have part 2 in here too?

Alter Ego
June 24th, 2008, 10:41 AM
EDIT: I had forgotten that Gale completed Laertes's sentence, as opposed to Laertes saying the whole phrase in that chapter, since in my rough draft Laertes says the whole phrase on his own. Whoops. 0.o So yeah, changed in order to better reflect that. Also, confession? I didn't really think about how weird it would be for a human to learn Pokespeech on his own was until after I started writing chapter two of "Thief in the Night".

Ahh...I figured as much, just thought that it would be bad form to leave that particular nit lurking in the woodwork of your argument. Besides, better safe than sorry, right? :3

I'd also like to see overdone starters in chapter 3!!!

Also, shouldnt u change the name since u have part 2 in here too?

Well, he can't really change the thread name without modly intervention, which is maybe a bit too much of a bother for such a small thing, especially since he added an explanation to the end of the first part.


Oh, and will there be some more discussion on antagonists both small and great in the next installment? Particularly the whole 'organized crime syndicate' shtick? I'm kind of working on those myself right now and it's always a bit more comforting to walk into the proverbial minefield if you've at least been prepped about basic safety measures. XD Ironically, there are also some cliché subversions that are so often resorted to that they have practically become clichés themselves, so you may want to add a word of caution about those too.

But yeah, it's your guide so it's about time I shut up and waited for the next installment like the rest. ^.^

TurtleKing
June 24th, 2008, 06:49 PM
You should add something about overused types-teams in an OT fics (Grass-Fire-Water-Electric-Flying-Random)

Scarlet Weather
June 26th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Well, since you all demand it, here's part three of my most incredible super-special-awesome guide, which is rapidly turning into a long list of cliches. Hmm.... maybe I should have entitled this thread "Thesis's list of OT fic cliches, parts one through I-haven't-figured-out-how-long-it'll-take-till-I'm-satisfied".

Now, due to popular request and the fact that I meant to cover these things eventually, this third part of our guide will examine the cliches involving the "bad guys"- from minor villains to big bads- and rivals as an extension of that, since they often play antagonist as well. Also, overused starters!

Leave the guns. Take the Zubat.

This happens time and time again: ten-year-old (well, usually fifteen or older) trainer confronts one or more "grunts" of a major organization. The grunts are disgruntled (no pun intended) that this runt is interfering with their plans, and so decide to teach him a lesson-

Through a Pokemon battle. No, they don't just beat the crap out of the kid with their bare hands or hit him with an iron pipe, as logic would dictate they should. They don't even threaten him with a weapon. They just pull their Pokeball and yell "Go!" and it's another battle, albeit one with the opponent wearing a bizarre cap and black spandex. (Which reminds me- what is it with the Rocket uniforms? Are they meant to look ridiculous, or is that a fashion statement wherever Giovanni lives?)

No, it gets worse. These grunts, though they are much older than the main character and probably have a heck of a lot more experience as a trainer, are limited to certain Pokemon. Namely small, annoying, and generally weaker ones. You know: Zubats, Rattatas, the occasional Ekans, maybe a Hypno for the really experienced ones... honestly, if Team Rocket really spends as much time capturing rare Pokemon as all accounts say they do, you'd think that they'd at least be distributing a couple of them down the ranks!

Unfortunately, this follows canon- game canon, anyway. Team Rocket of the anime has actually been a little more heinous, when we see their main body anyway, and at least one member has been trained to actually use weaponry of a sort. (If anyone would provide the name of that Rocket from Mewtwo Strikes Back for me, I'd be much obliged). But it completely misses reality. Game Rockets exist only for the player to barge through on their way to completing the story. Real Rockets, on the other hand, would probably be a little harder to deal with than simply knocking out a Zubat.

[Insert Pokemon name here], That's Right!

Many of the more juvenile OT fics, to use a slightly more flattering term than most I could think of describing them, have decided that the original anime Rocket Trio is simply not good enough to fill the role of annoying recurring villains. And so, they create their own Trio. This Trio will always meet these qualities:

-They will always be a man and a woman, despite the fact that it's been shown in the anime (the Japanese, at least) that two men or women could be partnered.

-They will always have names that, when put together, create the name of a famous character or criminal. (I think the worst I ever saw was the duo of "Millicent and Bulstrode". o.0)

-They will recite the Team Rocket Motto (or a very badly adapted version of said motto.)

-They will have a Pokemon who serves as their "third member". (Technically canonical, but do all of them have to speak English?)

They will then proceed to plague the hero through several chapters, hounding them for their starter (as opposed to the other, equally powerful Pokemon on their team) never stopping to perform other assignments. They will also contribute to several chapters of "padding", the literary equivalent of filler. Unfortunately, I've seen this far too many times. Seriously, Jessie, Meowth and James have had their fill of your holding up of lousy knock-offs. They are the original screwball comic trio, and they fulfill their role quite admirably without the competition, thank-you-very-much. And besides, when the only point of your villains is to constantly make the hero look good by defeating them, you really haven't developed them much, have you? Bringing us to our next point, which once again is a problem in literature as a whole...

Cardboard Opponent

The Antagonist has no development, or none at all. We are given little chance to see his motives, or to learn how he has amassed such an amazing power base. All you need to know is that he is evil, if only because he opposes the hero (see "Hero=Good"). That, therefore, makes him worthless, and completely expendable. Also, the Antagonist will do several things that make very little sense except that they are considered mean. Almost as if he was trying to shock a group of unseen readers, hmm?

Seriously, the villain should be more than the word "evil" printed on someone's forehead. The antagonist in a story is the most important character besides the protagonist, because he is the character who creates the conflict that the protagonist must either succumb to or overcome by the end of the story. Sure, your villain is evil. Now how and why is he that way? What makes him deserving of death? What are his motives? And why is it that the hero wants to oppose him directly? These are all questions that you should try to answer in some way during your story.

So what are we gonna do tonight, Giovanni?

There is no getting around it: The evil team is always hell-bent on world domination, for no good reason. This is understandable: After all, Team Rocket took over Saffron and made a bid for Johto in the games, and in the manga it was shown that the Rockets wanted to take over every Pokemon in the world. In the anime, Giovanni helped fund the creation of Mewtwo as part of a cloning experiment that might have allowed them complete takeover. But original evil teams, which are often more paper-thin in motivation then the rockets, who just seem to be exceptionally greedy, are always after the same thing. And you've got to wonder: just why is it that the Rockets, Aquas, Magmas, Galactics, and whoever aren't fighting for the turf? I mean, they're all after the same thing one way or another. They should really be concentrating on offing the competition. Why is it that they're always trying for world domination? Would it kill them to concentrate on something a little smaller?

By all your powers combined, I am Captain Giovanni!

Ooh, this is just itching to be lampooned in fanfiction someday soon. Many people have speculated that if all the teams (who seem more like "gangs" to me, but that's another story) joined together, they could create a Super-Team that could work as one to dominate the world. This does create a problem for the hero, but unfortunately it just wouldn't work.

First of all, the teams may be after the same thing, but they aren't after it for the same reasons. Let's take a team-up between Rocket, Aqua, and Magma for example. First of all, Aqua and Magma will never reconcile outside of the RSE ending. Aqua wants to cover the world with water to.... I'm not quite sure, really, but apparently they think raising the sea level will help people. Somehow. Magma is also out to change Earth's structure, but they want to create more land so people can build more houses. Both groups are also eco-terrorists, meaning that they're out to save the environment (in the case of Team Aqua, they are probably literally trying to save the whales). Team Rocket, on the other hand, wants total domination and aren't particularly concerned with what they squish in the process. That's not even considering the possible addition of Galactic, which is led by Cyrus. You know, Cyrus? Crazy guy who wants to take over the world by breaking it down into its most basic elements and then rebuilding it? Yeah, I'm sure that he and Giovanni would be in complete agreement on the best ways of how to rebuild the world assuming he actually succeeded. Moral of the story? Teams do not work in each other's best interests for a reason.

Also, there's geography to consider. Remember, these are criminal organizations, and they're big ones. Steps have probably been taken by law enforcement to make it as hard as possible for them to move around. They can't afford to suddenly ship members off to a region where they have little to no power base. The Rockets seem firmly based in Kanto and Johto, no matter what canon you use. Aqua and Magma are Hoenn-exclusives, since they're after something that can only be found there, and probably aren't too friendly towards visitors. Cyrus, once again, is based solely in Sinnoh. Location, location, location.

The Power of Friendship

Villains of any sort are apparently not allowed to understand the concept of friendship or trust with their Pokemon... which is odd, considering at least three of the heads of evil teams canonically own a Crobat. A Pokemon which only evolves when a strong bond is present. Interesting, no?

Competition Turned Brutal

Now let's take a break from organized crime and cover rivals. Rivals are especially important characters, because they are part of the reason the protagonist is motivated to train. That's what a rival is, isn't it? Someone you are driven to compete with and overcome?

Apparently, many OTers are unclear on exactly what a rival is, and make the mistake of making their rival a recurring or semi-recurring character who occasionally shows up, battles, and then leaves either in tears or promising to become stronger. He never defeats the hero.

See, the problem there is that a rival isn't just someone your trainer battles with. You can't just slap the word "rival" on someone and expect them to be one. A rival is someone your character is driven to compete with, to defeat, to surpass, and then to continuously surpass. Rivalry is a pretty bloody business when you think about it, really. A rival has to have three things in order to become a rival to your character:

-They must have a relationship of some sort- that is, they know each other fairly well and are aware that they are in competition.

-There must be a reason that they compete beyond the fact that they are both trainers. Otherwise, every trainer your character battles with throughout the course of the fic could be considered his "rival".

-The rival and the main character must be equal in either potential or ability- otherwise, there would be no need for them to be in such heated competition, since one would have completely outclassed the other already.

Rivalry runs deep. Take Ash and Gary from the anime as an example. Their rivalry began because as children they were always quarreling about who was the best. Eventually, it developed into a relationship characterized by a constant desire to "one-up" each other. As is motivated throughout most of Kanto to continue training because he wants to beat Gary. And it's not easy either- Gary doesn't cut him any slack. This is an example of a rivalry that makes sense. Not a fan of the anime? Try the manga instead. Red is motivated to battle Green at first because of their incredibly different ideals about Pokemon training, and because both have the same goal. Gold wants to beat Silver because Silver stole one of Professor Elm's Pokemon while he was there. Ruby and Sapphire challenge each other because when they first meet they can't stand each other. And on the list goes. The point is, however, that there's a common link between all of these trainers. They all want to beat each other because at some point, they fought, and wanted to settle it. A rivalry could almost, in some cases, be thought of as an extended argument that two people have decided to settle through an elaborate competition.

Now, to quickly deal with rival stereotypes that show up quite often:

-Evil Rival: Silver without the redeeming qualities. He's cruel, merciless, steals Pokemon, and abuses them. For no adequately explored reason. He can't understand why the hero defeats him again and again, possibly because he hasn't noticed that his rival's surname is "Sue". He releases Pokemon when they get too weak. Also, he strangles puppies. He exists either to turn to the dark side and get killed, or to be redeemed by the hero. Wow. Interesting. Never seen that before. *rolls eyes*

-Childhood Friend: The childhood friend who competes with your character but seems to be doing it more because he's serious about the competition. The problem with this? Rivals have to actually be devoted to beating each other.

-Wise Old Mentor Lite Rival: Gandalf in the body of a fifteen-year-old. He may lose occasionally, but that doesn't stop him from imparting some home-spun wisdom to the main character each time they meet. He's ridiculously calm. He eventually joins the hero's entourage.

Overused Starters

Many people, in order to avoid the tedium of the usual twelve starters, decide to have their trainer start with a completely different Pokemon. But when the non-starter starters start repeating in species over and over again, it gets annoying. Especially when the explanation for why your character is being handed a Pikachu looks suspiciously like the beggining of the anime...

The follow Pokemon are used in the place of normal starters so often, you'd think they'd be on the registered list by now:

-Pikachu
-Eevee (Actually, Eevee might be the easiest to explain if your character got it from a lab. I mean, it's got so many evolutionary forms, I'm sure a professor would be anxious to study one. If you don't like that explanation, read the chapter of Farla's list of OT parodies entitled "How to give your stupid trainer an Eevee". Or something along those lines.)
-Munchlax (the latest addition)

This list includes only Pokemon that are given out by Professors to trainers.

Keep watching for part four of the guide! Next time, we'll continue our look at the cliches surrounding Team Rocket and the rest. Also, a special guest appearance from Augustus of "Thief in the Night!"

Alli
June 27th, 2008, 08:27 AM
Well, I've just been admiring this guide from afar, never really saying anything about it. Time to act!

But first...

-Evil Rival: Silver without the redeeming qualities. He's cruel, merciless, steals Pokemon, and abuses them. For no adequately explored reason. He can't understand why the hero defeats him again and again, possibly because he hasn't noticed that his rival's surname is "Sue". He releases Pokemon when they get too weak. Also, he strangles puppies. He exists either to turn to the dark side and get killed, or to be redeemed by the hero. Wow. Interesting. Never seen that before. *rolls eyes*

Don't be so cruel to me.

The follow Pokemon are used in the place of normal starters so often, you'd think they'd be on the registered list by now:

-Pikachu
-Eevee (Actually, Eevee might be the easiest to explain if your character got it from a lab. I mean, it's got so many evolutionary forms, I'm sure a professor would be anxious to study one. If you don't like that explanation, read the chapter of Farla's list of OT parodies entitled "How to give your stupid trainer an Eevee". Or something along those lines.)
-Munchlax (the latest addition)

Considering my decoy Riolu just fainted, I'd like to point out that Riolu is an overused starter, as well as what you've listed. That, and I can't tell you how many times I've read a story with a shiny starter, hence why I put it in my OT parody.

Villains of any sort are apparently not allowed to understand the concept of friendship or trust with their Pokemon... which is odd, considering at least three of the heads of evil teams canonically own a Crobat. A Pokemon which only evolves when a strong bond is present. Interesting, no?


And even more interesting, is that Cyrus, who has no emotion and thinks of you as a fool for having friendship and compassion for Pokemon, has a Crobat in the final battle.

But anyway, I'm looking foward to the next part, Thesis! -runs away from your cheddar cheese-

Ninja Caterpie
June 27th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Silver, Thesis called you a guy!!!!
Ok, lol jokes.
Good good! Nice job so far Thesis.

Cerulean
July 16th, 2008, 06:23 AM
This is actually very helpful (even though reading this made me forget to read the manga). Kudos to you!
If every OT writer out there would actually read this then I must say .... We shall be cleansed and PURIFIED of the over-cliched and Mary-Sue fics. But as you have said, many will be challenged to ACTUALLY think over the plot of their stories and we shall be blessed with stories that we can actually soak ourselves into.

If I actually get round to writing an OT fanfic I'll be sure to refer to these guide again. And I shall post this in my ff.net profile so that I'll have more Pokemon fanfics to read. I am honestly getting tired of browsing the archive of Pokemon fanfictions in ff.net and (mostly) find ContestShipping fics.


Again, Kudos to you for actually bothering to write this and guiding writers-to-be (or even experienced writers out there) on what to avoid in writing OT fics.

burningfoot
July 16th, 2008, 08:43 AM
This is great! Not just because it's helping me write my current FanFic but it's absolutely flipping hilarious when it comes to examples of extremely stupid cliches.

I've noticed that I've been avoiding the cliches you've mentioned so far but I'm starting to fall into the traps of some cliches involved with the antagonist. But when you talk about the antagonist you use "he" so does my antagonist not have to follow those rules due to the fact that she's an insane feminist and well, not a guy?

Your point "By all your powers combined, I am Captain Giovanni!" interests me. I tried that potential cliche out a while back and it seriously messed up my story. And you should suggest that if anyone does do that they should avoid certain things, for example calling the resulting organisation something like Team RAMAG, RAMAG stands for Rocket, Aqua, Magma and Galactic. I'm never trying that again.

Keep up the good work mate!

Astinus
July 16th, 2008, 12:08 PM
But when you talk about the antagonist you use "he" so does my antagonist not have to follow those rules due to the fact that she's an insane feminist and well, not a guy?
*facepalm*

You're joking, right? Please tell me you're joking.

If you are, then "haha! XD"

If you aren't, then Thesis-kun used "he" because he felt it was easier than remembered the politically correct way of combining both sexes so neither one feels left out and cries discrimination. :<

Scarlet Weather
July 16th, 2008, 05:29 PM
You thought he had abandoned the guide....

The guide lay mouldering in the lounge for many weeks...

But then life returned...

Now, witness the rebirth!

Thesis's OT Fic Guide- What Not to Include, Part Four!

Ahem, yes... Since I've been pretty straightforward with the guide so far, I thought I'd do something a bit different this time. So I'll be writing this section of the guide from the perspective of one of my own fictional characters, both as a creative exercise for me, and to explore what the character would do given this task. The character I've chosen is Augustus, from my ongoing fanfic "Thief in the Night" (chapter three will be up sometime... hopefully before school starts again). For those of you who have not yet read "Thief in the Night", Augustus is the starting Pokemon and partner in crime of the titular thief, "Gale" Fortunado, and he does his best to keep Gale's ego from getting too fat. Unfortunately, his efforts are largely unsuccessful.

Without further ado, here's Augustus with part four of our guide....

..
..
....


Well, I suppose most of you know who I am by now, probably because the idiot who manages this sorry excuse for a guide introduced me. For future reference, I resent the name "Augustus". He's a dead Roman emperor, and the name makes me sound pompous and stuffy. Unfortunately, I had no say in the matter. And wouldn't you know it, I've got leeway to use my section of this guide to discuss something every potential fanfic author comes into contact with when writing for this fandom: nicknames.

Go, Blaze!... Ten bucks it's a Charmander.

I have to laugh at the practice of you humans giving us nicknames. Really, it's amusing watching you try to think of a proper name for us. Unfortunately, you humans are rarely creative. Why, I've spent the past weeks reading... what is it you humans call this again? "Journeyfics"? And I've noticed an alarming tendency to use annoyingly generic names for your Pokemon. Think about it- if, as you humans insist you do, give Pokemon nicknames in order to differentiate us from every other member of our species, then shouldn't you be trying to make sure that the idiot three links down isn't running around with a starter Pokemon with the exact same name? I'll give you a few examples of annoyingly common nicknames for various species of Pokemon:

-"Flare"- Charmander line, Flareon, Growlithe Line

-"Blaze"- Ponyta line, Charmander line, Flareon (surprisingly few Growlithes, at least according to my observations)

-"Razor"- Scyther

-"Slash"- Scyther

-"Sparky"- Pikachu line, Electrike line

And that's just a few examples. I could provide more, but modesty prevents me- and no, I'm not preening myself right now because I'm feeling pride in my accomplishments. Any idiot could figure this information out with a few minutes of clicking around. I just happen to have something caught under my wing, that's all. There, got it! Now that I've dealt with that distraction, we can continue.

There are many ways to choose names for your Pokemon, if you're so hell-bent on giving us nicknames. Honestly, I don't see the need. There are so many ways to interpret canon that you're perfectly capable of just having your trainer call us by our species name. I happen to remember enjoying a certain fanfic, which I will not disclose the name of, in which all Pokemon adressed themselves informally by their species name, but gave names to each other when they wanted familiarity. Actually, come to think of it, they were a series of fanfics based around a story... what was it? Quest for the Legends, written by someone named... Dragonnfrie? Dragonfree? Something like that. Anyway, I thought that was particularly interesting, and an excellent way to explain why some Pokemon have nicknames, and others don't. However, I'm getting ahead of myself. I want to talk about implausible nickname choices, the other extreme beyond generic.

Implausible nickname choices occur when a trainer immediately comes up with a completely bizarre-sounding nickname and hands it to the Pokemon immediately- usually a name from a popular series of some sort, or the name of a human being of distinction, especially a deceased one. (Which reminds me- why are you humans so obsessed with the accomplishments of dead humans? They're dead and gone, what could they possibly have to do with the here and now? Honestly, you make no sense to me.) The problem is that the one pulling these names out is a ten year old kid (okay, maybe fifteen or older, still implausible), and it's attributed (usually) to their own imagination. When have any of you suddenly thought up the name "Augustus" on a whim? I once (to my chagrin) read a fanfic in which many Pokemon characters were named after characters from the novel Watership Down. Unfortunately, the trainer in question made no reference to naming them that because it was his favorite book, or even referenced the source material- in fact, he explained each time that each name was the name that "fit" the Pokemon in question. (For future reference, I resent his implication that a physically fit Pokemon that exhibited no traits associated with leadership fit the name "Hazel"- and it makes little sense for him to refer to the Pokemon as "Hazel-rah" unless the trainer had read the book and knew something about the honorative's significance in Lapine). This is insane. If you're going to use the name of a real person as the nickname of your fictional Pokemon, use some of that common sense that the brighter ones of you humans are always going on about and give the trainer a reason to pick those names, and admit that they're named after real people.

For instance, my trainer named me after a dead Roman emperor. I don't like the name, but I'm stuck with it- and he refuses to call me anything different. I've gotten over it by now. Mostly. In any case, Gale didn't pull the name out of thin air. He was an avid reader of Greek and Roman history back when we started together, and it's been a pet interest of his for a while. He's had access to literature. He would have known the significance of the names he gave to my companions and I. Is this shameless promotion of the fic I star in? Perhaps. But you can hardly blame me for it- wouldn't you, in the same position? And besides, it would look rather hypocritical if I expounded on the evils of illogical nicknames and used this moniker. And yes, in case you hadn't noticed, my vocabulary is rather large for a Pidgeot. Please stop wondering about that- I'm not bound by the rules of canon when I'm not in my own fic, you know.

And now for something completely different-

All glory to the hypno-Legendary...

Canon or not, I'm sick of every fic with a so-called "journey" theme wandering off into Legendary-land. For heaven's sakes, those Pokemon you call "Legendary" happen to be the patron deities of Pokemon in many canon interpretations, particularly anime and some fan-made canons created by combing anime, game, and manga. They can't be involved in everyone's problems. And for those of you who were writing stories about evil teams attempting to subdue the gods- particularly the Sky Gods*- please remember that such schemes have never succeeded for one good reason, and it isn't because a ten-year-old human can intervene- nobody, no matter how powerful, can ever completely subdue a god. That idiot leading Team Rocket- whatsisname? Govanzi? Giovanni? He's never tried to capture a god before, and for good reason. Probably the reason he hasn't been killed yet. What, you thought those others had survived? Ha! They were probably lynched by worshipers of the Lords whom they attempted to enslave the minute they stepped off-camera! And what, you thought we Pokemon wouldn't fight in the name of our gods? For shame!

Super-Weapon Online! Fire, Fire, Fire!

For heaven's sakes, you humans are so obsessed with your own technology, aren't you? Why is it that in fanfiction, only clearly evil groups have the necessary technology to develop weaponry that could be used to take over the world? Are the Police simply not competent enough to build counter-weaponry?

I told you we should have installed a child-lock on Headquarters!

And on that note, why is it that most, if not all, evil teams can have their plans completely undone by a ten to eighteen year old trainer with much less experience than most if not all of their members? You'd think the only reason they'd attempted the plan was so that the trainer could overcome them, thus proving his amazing-ness...

...Wait a minute. Well, I always knew you humans had ego problems, but even Gale hasn't stooped to writing fiction just so his characters can look good...

...I think. I'd better go check on him.

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..
....


Well, I hope you enjoyed that. By the way, I'd like to challenge those of you new to this to try looking at things from the perspective of your characters once in a while- it'll really help them come to life. That's why I do things like this little creative exercise once in a while, to make sure that my characters don't just become little copies of me who go where the plot directs them. (I'm starting to wonder if 'Gust and I are a little too similar- maybe we're both disillusioned with humanity? I dunno.)

*Augustus is referring to Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Lugia, and Ho-Oh: The five flying legendary Pokemon, who are sort of like the guardian gods of flying-type Pokemon in my interpretation of canon. Also, keep in mind that 'Gust is speaking more towards fics in which the legendaries are portrayed as gods- if they're simply considered insanely powerful Pokemon, that's another thing altogether.

Grovyle42(Griff8416)
July 17th, 2008, 04:12 AM
Enjoyable AND very true, indeed.

Merata
July 17th, 2008, 04:46 AM
This guide is really good, it helped me sofar with my fan fiction :D.

Golden Riolu
July 17th, 2008, 05:04 AM
Oh, dear. It appears that my fic is full of cliches. I seem to have avoided a fair few of them though... original names, a rival who has been introduced although no one knows who he is or when he came in, no bacon...

More importantly, oftentimes these Pokemon have been abused by human trainers. Don't you think that if you were abused and left to die, you wouldn't be so trusting?

I think my Selena has one foot in this cliche.

I know the problem! I'm stuck in limbo! Half in, half out...

~Golden

burningfoot
July 17th, 2008, 11:29 AM
Astinus, do you really believe that I am the ignorant prat that the giant author in the sky attempts to portray me as? Of course I was joking!

Well done Thesis, for shining light of the repetitive and foolish nature of the OT fanfic writing people such as myself.

And now for something completely different-

Purpose Monty Python reference?

Blue Angel
July 18th, 2008, 07:15 PM
This has given me quite a few helpful tips on my story, so Thank you. I have also read Dragonfree's story "Quest for Legends"(I don't really remember it anymore, I just remember reading it...) but i also thought it was interesting and quite good.

I am making a story and didn't plan on having a rival, but now you have convinced me and it fits in perfectly with my story.

Ninja Caterpie
July 19th, 2008, 11:55 PM
Heh.
Well, more stuff to show how terribly cliched things can be (such as my fic)
-sigh-
Well, at least there wasn't any bacon or Recko nicknames.

SailorShadow
September 9th, 2008, 03:38 PM
I really like this guide. It's funny, and its informative. I try to avoid some of those cliches, though I always nickname Pokemon...

Oh, and in part 3. You mentioned that the evil teams seem more like a gang than a team, right? THat's because in the original Japanese, Team Rocket's name was actually the Rocket-Dan, which translates roughly to Rocket Gang. Of course, you can't put gangs in a kid's TV show/ video game, so they changed it to team so it would be more appropriate for all ages, I guess.

And also, I tend to use Japanese names in my fanfictions; I actually look up what I need the name to mean for the character to make sense and name it that. Like my character Nami, for example. The name Nami means wave in Japanese, and in my story, she has power over water. So as long as the Japanese names fit the character's personality/ power (if the character has any), its okay. Plus, they eat some Japanese food (onigiri, sushi, etc) and I tend to refer to the group as "(insert name here)-tachi" because that means "(insert name here) and the others" for Japanese. It's a lot easier than typing out all their names.

Astinus
September 9th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Yes, I know SailorShadow bumped the thread, but I assume Thesis is going to post more, or something like that. That said, SailorShadow, double-check the last post date of the thread before posting.

So as long as the Japanese names fit the character's personality/ power (if the character has any), its okay.
It also depends on the culture that the character is in. You could have a character that perfectly fits a Japanese name, but if the character is in a culture/area that the name would be weird in, then why give them a name to have them stick out more?

Let's take your character, Nami. She's probably surrounded by people with Japanese names. She also has her special power over water. But if she's around people whose names are of a different culture, why mark Nami out more as a "special" character by giving her a name that makes her stand out?

There also really isn't any need for a character to have a power just to have a Japanese name. One of my characters has a Japanese name, no special powers at all that mark her different from the people that she's mainly with. But she's a Japanese girl living in Japan, growing up in a traditional Japanese household. Of course she's going to have a Japanese name.

I tend to refer to the group as "(insert name here)-tachi" because that means "(insert name here) and the others" for Japanese. It's a lot easier than typing out all their names.
Sometimes, when dealing with a large group of people, authors use a "group name". For one of my fanfics where I have six characters together pretty much all the time, I use the term that they call themselves (Chosen Children) in the narration. The rest of my narration is in English, so why should I use "-tachi" in the narration when the characters have their own group name that's in English?

It just strikes me as weird to use a random Japanese term in the narration unless the group calls themselves that. I'll admit to never reading your fanfic, so I don't know what the case is. I'm just of the camp that random Japanese anything should be used in the fic unless the location/culture/characters/plot calls for it.

SailorShadow
September 10th, 2008, 11:52 AM
My story takes place in Japan, so most of the characters have Japanese names, except a few that had moved from other countries, etc. When I had the idea for the story, though, I already had it planned for the character to have power over water. So I looked up Japanese names that mean water. But, yes, it should fit the culture/location/plot. So if its in France, it wouldn't make much sense for them to have a Russian name unless the character had moved there or something.

There's a term for every character in the group, but the large group is split into 2 parts according to what their goal is. So one includes a few, and the other has a few, but I decided not to give each part a formal name.
But thanks for pointing this out to me. Most of my stories give the groups formal names, but the story I mentioned is different than the ones I usually write.

Arumus
September 10th, 2008, 12:16 PM
I like your guide. I understand people have got so bored with Journey Fictions, mostly because no one finishes them because they're journeys and they may believe they need to describe every town, battle, wild catch and city. Although, you can't slate those who just want to write one. It's their choice.

Anywho, all these cliche fan fictions also do help us to make awesome parodies, whey! I'm currently writing a fan fiction journey because I wanted to. I've had a few people like it due to originality in the journey, but as we all do. We're doing it for ourselves.

Right, there is my polite rant. You can have evil clans and such, but having organisations like Rocket is boring. Add in some Ivory poachers trying to take a Donphan on the news and the character may or may not come across them and just talk about the report with someone. I don't know really what my post here is trying to say, I guess it's defending the odd cliché and liking your guide aswell.

Scarlet Weather
September 19th, 2008, 02:38 PM
The scene is the top of a tall building, as rain pours down from above. Thesis, the mighty warrior of all that is shiny and distracting, is facing his dreaded foe, that fiend known as "Rea Llifed Istractions". Both swing their mighty blades at each other, until at last, Thesis's shoulder is pierced.

RLI: Tell me what part of your online activities you cherish most... give me the pleasure of taking it away...

Thesis suddenly remembers the countless RPs he has been part of, his long-neglected fanfic, and his guide, which still waits for him. With a roar, he swings his mighty blade and sends his opponent flying into the air!

Thesis: I pity you... you just don't understand! There is not a part of the Pokecommunity forums that I do not cherish!

With a mighty swing, Thesis unleashes a barrage of blows that completly annihilate his opponent- first clearing up his dreaded "homework Masamune", then his "Social life", and finally crushing his "commitment to after-school activities".

The villain is vanquished but manages to croak his final words before vanishing...

RLI: I will never... be a memory....

Thesis prepares to leave, but suddenly, RLI's henchman, Thesis's obligation to his after-school job appears, with a loaded weapon! Thesis charges, but-

CLICK.

The writing staff of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children have contacted Thesis and respectfully requested that his parody end here. Actually, they probably would have liked it if he hadn't posted it in the first place.

Thesis's Official Cliche Guide Part Four: Advent

Well gang, it's been a while. Why have I been avoiding the guide? Well, mostly the lack of anything obvious to put in it. I mean, I've covered pretty much everything- rivalries, evil "teams", super-weapons, legendary captures, abysmally inappropriate nicknames, and on down the list- really, I thought, how much was left for me to put in here? Aside from that, I've been busy lately, what with school starting again. I'm a leading member of my school's debate and cross country team, and I'm taking an advanced English course so that I can prepare for eventually pursuing a major in either English or American literature when I go off to college in 2010. And yes, that does mean I'm a junior in high school. Now you know. Anyway, aside from those major distractions, I've had a few minor ones- say, being an active member on three (count 'em) communities, writing something that I'm trying to turn into a novel (hence the lack of updates on Thief in the Night), writing reviews on abysmally messed up or just plain bad fantasy in general (Dragons in our Midst=Worst. Christian. Fantasy. Series. Ever. No. Just no.) And when that's said and done, I just received a gamecube (yes, you read that right) from a friend, and I'm using that as an excuse to finally play some of the "Tales Of" series, which I've been meaning to do forever.

Obviously, the guide has been a bit low on my list of priorities right now.

But that changes today. After reading some OT fanfics, both here and on other sites, I've realized that there's still things that need to be addressed. And aside from that, I just realized that PMD fics are experiencing a huge upswing lately, on this forum at least, and they're probably the second most popular genre of fanfic. And after that, it occured to me that I hadn't even mentioned Pokemorphs yet- and yes, technically, that's a different genre sometimes, but I feel like doing it, so I will.

So, I think now that the original purpose of this guide has been somewhat fulfilled, it's time to expand it. I will be PMing Astinus to change the name of the thread to "Thesis's Official Guide to Pokemon Fanfiction Cliches" as soon as I get around to it. Now, without further ado, on to the first cliche!

Copyright Infringement? (Also: Copypasta, or "Clip, Clip, Paste, Paste")

Ah, fanfiction, fanfiction. It's a lovely little place where we can all get together and have fun playing with original characters in somebody else's world, right?

BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZTTTT!

That was my patented danger-alarm going off as I see another fic doomed to screaming, shattering, sub-par quality. The plot, characters, and motivations were all sound. What, then, doomed this fic? Well, mostly the fact that the characters didn't belong to the author.

Seriously, folks, don't pull a Paolini and just rewrite Star Wars, or Yu-Gi-Oh, or Final Fantasy VII, or Fire Emblem, or The Matrix, or what have you and then add Pokemon somehow, change a few names, and think you're writing a good fic. Obviously, this rule does not apply to crackfics, but otherwise it's sound. Yes, the image of Professor Oak cosplaying as Gandalf is amusing. But "Lord of the Master Balls" is not a fic that I'll be reading anytime soon unless it's a genuine parody. Sure, you may pull it off. Sure, you may even come up with something better or more original than the average fic. But what's the point if the ideas don't come from you? Sure, everyone seems to have thought of the same idea over and over. But that doesn't mean you can just grab copyrighted material and use it to get popular. If it's not your story, don't write it. Being influenced by published material is one thing. Raping it and turning it into a poor imitation is another thing altogether. For the love of Pete, folks, listen to me. Do not violate the sanctity of another's work.

(For the record, the other day I found a Pokemon fic where the main character owned a Scyther, got kicked out of his home village, and introduced himself with the line "Give me your name, and I shall give you mine." No, I'm not kidding. I wiped my history, so I don't have the link, but if I ever find it again, I will post it here to show you what I'm talking about.)

Chosen One Syndrome (AKA, Touched by a Legendary)

Okay, seriously, I think I've gone over this before, but I think it's time for an actual comparison between a well-done chosen one, and a poorly done cliched one. Let's look at examples of a poor "Chosen One", like those found in most badfics:

-Is given powers by a Legendary Pokemon, and they're almost always extremely flashy. They have done virtually nothing to deserve these powers.
-Is undefeatable... except when the long arm of the plot decides they need to lose and get captured by the bad guys, who will then proceed to say "I have you now, Mr. Bond!" and proceed to reveal their evil plans.
-They will fall in love. Their love will be epic. If their original love interest dies, he/she will either be resurrected at the end or replaced.
-Their powers get a super-mega-awesome boost near the end of the story. This enables them to fight the final boss antagonist on even footing.
-If the chosen one dies, it will be because they sacrificed themself to save the world.

By contrast, here's a "chosen one" done right: Bilbo Baggins, main character of The Hobbit.

-Gandalf chooses him to be a "burglar", not on the basis that he has some sort of hidden ability, but because he is "more than he appears"- in other words, he has actual depth as a character.
-All of his special "powers" are simply skills that he picks up. His sword, his one real weapon, is stolen from trolls who tried to kill him. His ring of invisibility (The One Ring, though we don't find that out until Fellowship) becomes his by a stroke of luck, true, but he has to outwit Gollum and steal it in order to get his hands on it.
-He grows as a character throughout the story, but retains several flaws, including impatience and a desire to quit the journey altogether. But he keeps going in spite of them.
-Love interest? What's that?
-While Bilbo is instrumental in finding Smaug's weakness, he isn't the one to deliver the final blow- that honor goes to Bard.
-Ultimately, Bilbo's actions free the people of Lake-town from the dragon and restore the dwarves' kingdom, but indirectly.
-He is able to feel very real pain, fear, and doubt.

See the difference?

Aside from that, I'd like to point out that your character need not be chosen by a Legendary Pokemon or a Shadowy Organization (TM). Get creative! Bilbo didn't know he was destined to save the people of Lake-town indirectly. All he knew was that a strange old man roped him into a quest that he didn't particularly want to go on anway, and he had to either go with the flow or sink. And so he went.

Well, that's all for now. Part V will be forthcoming soon... but until then...

MAY YOUR POKEMON STAY EV TRAINED.

"In other news, Thesis has been lynched today by a mob of crazed Eragon fanboys, for daring to criticize young hearthrob super-special-awesome mega-cool teenaged wonderboy author Christopher Paolini. In official statements, Knox publishing gave no comment..."

Bay Alexison
September 19th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Huh, funny you should mention another part of Chosen One fics because I too am planning on one, but with a twist. Hint: inspired by the trailer of the movie "Eagle Eye." XD

*coughs*

In any case, another informative guide here, Thesis. However, on the love interest thing-- I don't think that makes a Chosen One fic that bad. If done right, then I think the relationship between the two characters will be interesting. However, I understand that most of the time the realtionship would end up cliche and not creative.

Scarlet Weather
September 19th, 2008, 05:21 PM
Huh, funny you should mention another part of Chosen One fics because I too am planning on one, but with a twist. Hint: inspired by the trailer of the movie "Eagle Eye." XD

*coughs*

In any case, another informative guide here, Thesis. However, on the love interest thing-- I don't think that makes a Chosen One fic that bad. If done right, then I think the relationship between the two characters will be interesting. However, I understand that most of the time the realtionship would end up cliche and not creative.

Eh, it's more that the cliche is that it will always happen... and it'll either end up something like a bizarre anime relationship where X is traveling with Y, X and Y share a love-hate relationship that for no reason other than the demands of the plot call for it blossoms into romance, and X and Y live happily ever after, or it'll be like a bad rendition of Twilight by Stephanie Meyers. I hate those books. >.<

Romance is really too big, I think, to put into a story where it is not the main focus. I don't advocate it in fanfiction where the point of the story is the journey unless you're confident you can balance them without having one overshadow the other.

burningfoot
September 20th, 2008, 02:43 AM
If their original love interest dies, he/she will either be resurrected at the end or replaced.


Does this apply to non-chosen one characters too? And I think it's possible to ressurect a character without it ruining the story, just a bit difficult.

Great guide as always though.

FF VII parody. Lol.

An-chan
September 22nd, 2008, 02:19 PM
I don't know what I dare to write anymore!

I had bad guys using Pokémon instead of guns, but I thought that it was because guns are prohibited and long forgotten in Pokémon universe. You don't see them in games, do you? But, well, now all I can think about are the cliches, stupidities and plot holes I'm sure my fic is full. You've made me paranoid, Thesis! Darn you and all your offspring for centuries to come!

Anyway, what you do here is very, very useful. And funny. I've laughed many times. Actually, I'm so new to this Pokémon-fanfic-world that is out there I have never really read more than, say two fanfics. So, I did not know there are people that... unimaginitive in this world. Now I am truly frightened. People are often even more frightening than Medicham are. Brrh.

I truly think this world would be a better place (when it comes to literature) if every human being on this planet would read this. Or listen to the small voice of reasonality in their head. Anyway, thank you for being awesome. That's all I have to say.

Scarlet Weather
September 23rd, 2008, 01:50 AM
I don't know what I dare to write anymore!

I had bad guys using Pokémon instead of guns, but I thought that it was because guns are prohibited and long forgotten in Pokémon universe. You don't see them in games, do you? But, well, now all I can think about are the cliches, stupidities and plot holes I'm sure my fic is full. You've made me paranoid, Thesis! Darn you and all your offspring for centuries to come!

Why, thank you!

And secretly, I've always thought there are gun control laws in the poke-verse similar to those in Japan. It doesn't explain why the Rockets couldn't just scrounge them up, though. I mean, they are our resident criminal masterminds. 0.o

Anyway, what you do here is very, very useful. And funny. I've laughed many times. Actually, I'm so new to this Pokémon-fanfic-world that is out there I have never really read more than, say two fanfics. So, I did not know there are people that... unimaginitive in this world. Now I am truly frightened. People are often even more frightening than Medicham are. Brrh.

Oh, you haven't yet read the exploding Charizard fic. XD

I truly think this world would be a better place (when it comes to literature) if every human being on this planet would read this. Or listen to the small voice of reasonality in their head. Anyway, thank you for being awesome. That's all I have to say.

*Pats on the head* Very good. Now, anyone else want to stroke my ego today?

Monkeymon
September 23rd, 2008, 01:58 PM
Whoa, I really do not know what to say. This is great, I really learned a lot. Many would, but still. Wow.
This definitely is one of the most informative things I have ever read. Maybe a section on romance stories would be good. I haven't read any here, but I have seen some really bad ones. Don't feel pressured though.

solovino
October 10th, 2008, 07:21 AM
No way this thread can be forgotten.

This has been quite useful to me. And not to say fun. It's like, what do they say, "edutainment"?

When I opened the document containing my first Pokémon FF, with this guide side by side, I could do no less than laugh at myself for being so silly. I still think t was well written (I mean, good grammar and that kind of stuff), but plot-wise my FF was simply "OT naïveness". I'm looking for inspiration to rewrite it, and this guide, as well as the comments, have been of great help.

As for comments:


Leave the guns. Take the Zubat.

This happens time and time again: ten-year-old (well, usually fifteen or older) trainer confronts one or more "grunts" of a major organization. The grunts are disgruntled (no pun intended) that this runt is interfering with their plans, and so decide to teach him a lesson-

Through a Pokemon battle. No, they don't just beat the crap out of the kid with their bare hands or hit him with an iron pipe, as logic would dictate they should. They don't even threaten him with a weapon. They just pull their Pokeball and yell "Go!" and it's another battle, albeit one with the opponent wearing a bizarre cap and black spandex. (Which reminds me- what is it with the Rocket uniforms? Are they meant to look ridiculous, or is that a fashion statement wherever Giovanni lives?)

So true. Ever since Johto in the anime I had a trouble with TR simply not picking up with tasers to steal the Trainer's Pokémon. It would have made things so easier, if that was just what they wanted. In the end I resorted to believing the Rockets were simply too eccentric or too pro-superiorism to be willing to get their hands dirty, which is what usually happens when someone goes fistcuffs. They woud rather let the Pokémon do the dirty job and instruct them to "try" and look cool-menacing all the way. Geez.


Go, Blaze!... Ten bucks it's a Charmander.

I have to laugh at the practice of you humans giving us nicknames. Really, it's amusing watching you try to think of a proper name for us. Unfortunately, you humans are rarely creative. Why, I've spent the past weeks reading... what is it you humans call this again? "Journeyfics"? And I've noticed an alarming tendency to use annoyingly generic names for your Pokemon. Think about it- if, as you humans insist you do, give Pokemon nicknames in order to differentiate us from every other member of our species, then shouldn't you be trying to make sure that the idiot three links down isn't running around with a starter Pokemon with the exact same name?


Man that was really fun to read. I mean fun with a meaning. In the beginning I did not think about even try to name the Pokémon in my fic, but then Me told me, "why not?", and then I stumbled in the problem of how to pick good names. Several times I felt compelled by laziness and was about to settle with those pathetic names like, say, "Bulby", "Blaze", "Willy" and even "Dee-Dee". Hew. The I got to a site with the meaning of some common names (for babies and the such), and I told me, "hey, me, likes mythology, don't you?" Result: I picked some books from the garage, wikipedia'ed some articles about religions and historical names, and I think I'm coming up with good names. For example, I have one trainer who named all of his Pokémon after the animal servants of several deities.



All glory to the hypno-Legendary...

Canon or not, I'm sick of every fic with a so-called "journey" theme wandering off into Legendary-land. For heaven's sakes, those Pokemon you call "Legendary" happen to be the patron deities of Pokemon in many canon interpretations, particularly anime and some fan-made canons created by combing anime, game, and manga. They can't be involved in everyone's problems.


Finally a cliché I'm not guilty of!--- at least, one I can be proud for. I somehow never let my work to wander off into Legendary-land. I only made two mentions of Pokémon legendary-ness and they were by-passing: when one of the main characters meets Bill, and another when a characters mentions he once met an Arcanine in a cave (and those do not exactl quailfy as "Legendary", it may be more like "mythical-ness"). And my trainer are DEFINITIVELY not touched ones / chosen ones / any other kid of magnets for legendaries.

All in all I have to say this is an excellent guide. I'll fav it and watch it with zeal, side by side with the FF I'm trying to review.

PD.: the "All glory to the Hypno-Legendary" is a reference to Futurama's Hypnotoad, isn't it? I laughed at it. It's like, particularily fitting reference for the section. You really deserve standing applause!

Scarlet Weather
October 25th, 2008, 06:48 PM
A man walks into a bar.

It hurts.

But it also shows the beginning of...

THE GUIDE! PART VI! Giga.... Drill...BURREKA!!!!!!

Alright, now that the Gurren Lagann is out of my system, it's time to actually go on to this part of my guide. I'll be touching on a few things I haven't done before, so listen carefully. Also, if you're one of the people whose fanfics inspired me to put these things up here... well, I'll honor you by NOT mentioning your names. You know who you are. *shifty eyes*

Ahem... moving on to my first section. WARNING: THIS CONCEPT IS NOT SAFE FOR THE EYES OF CHILDREN UNDER FOURTEEN.

The only thing in the Pokeverse more disturbing than SkittyonWailord action...

Pokemon and humans having a sexual attraction to each other.

No. Just no.

Seriously, I don't know what it is with people but it seems to me that I can't look at any forum without finding at least one fanfic with promises of hot Pokemon on human action at some point. The most common offenders are humanoid Pokemon such as Lucario, Gallade, Blaziken, and Gardevoir. However, I've seen much worse in the past, including a story that could essentially be summed up as an excuse for a Charizard to... ugh, we're just going to skip that now, got it? I don't want to be reminded of that fanfic ever again, but I just was. Look, I'll say it straight: I don't care if it never reaches a lemon, romance between Pokemon and humans should NEVER take a sexual turn. I don't know who or what you're writing for, but the fact remains that unless you're writing hot BlazikenonHuman action for a VERY SPECIFIC AUDIENCE composed entirely of PERVS, you shouldn't be inserting this into the main body of a story.

Pokemon and human in romantic relationships? It can be done, with work. But the love can't stem from sexual desire. Most people aren't exactly into bestiality. 0.o

So yeah, keep your mind out of the gutter, those of you aching to write trainerxLucario. There's more to love than sex, y'know.

I always knew school was worthless....

Let me put it this way: If your best excuse for keeping your lead character at home until long after they've turned ten is because they were "studying" to learn to be "better trainers", I'm pretty sure that you can do better. Seriously, what did they do all day? All of us have played the games at some point, and I'm fairly sure that we all know the type chart at a glance without needing to spend five years in a public school system memorizing it. Don't believe me? What types is flying weak to? If you immediately thought "electric, rock, and ice" give yourself a cookie, and then give one to me for being correct. As for strategy beyond learning movesets and attack types- both of which would be freely available from some sort of database anyway, considering that the Pokemon world has far more advanced technology available than our own- that's mostly dependent on two things: innate talent and experience. As a result, the best way to learn to battle would be to go out there and do it yourself.

If your main character is learning the ropes as a breeder or a coordinator, there's still no excuse. They should be apprenticing to an actual breeder, or participating in junior contests, or SOMETHING. There is no reason for a character to spend their entire education just learning how to hold a Pokeball.

BGBS: Boring Gym Battle Syndrome

When writing a gym battle, make sure to take the time to make it as exciting as possible. This is probably a key plot point if you're writing an OT fanfic, so be sure to do a good job with it. If your battle with the final gym leader is less exciting than your character's conversation with Nurse Joy five paragraphs up, I'm going to skip it. For examples of exciting gym battles, Pokemon Special- yes, the manga- has more than a few of them. Fights against gym leaders need not be simple one-on-one Pokemon battles. Many leaders could add extra rules, or authorize certain tactics that would otherwise not be allowed. It's ultimately your decision, but make sure that you take the time to do a good job with your badge matches.

To save the world, press here.

Saving the world often falls on the hero's shoulders. However, despite the daunting nature of this task, saving the world usually entails something simple. Pressing a self-destruct button, winning a Pokemon battle, or my personal favorite- the motivational speech of inspiration and justice- can often resolve all the world's problems in an instant if applied in the right time and place. The problem is that this does two things. First, it makes the climax less dramatic, because the audience will guess what's coming. Second, it makes your antagonists look either dumb or halfhearted, which you weren't going for. Right?

Sure, pressing buttons and winning battles against the villains can be an integral PART of saving the world, don't get me wrong. But when all fics conclude the same way a video game does- with the defeat of the final boss- it gets too predictable. Remember, saving the world is never as easy as it looks.

Well, that's it for today folks. Until next time...

DO THE IMPOSSIBLE, SEE THE INVISIBLE: ROW, ROW, FIGHT THE POWAH.

Ninja Caterpie
October 25th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Wow. Just wow. I lieked teh last one teh best!

Does falling out of a window halfway up Silph Co. when you're fighting change that?
And I'll keep the Gym Battles one in mind. ;)

Astinus
October 25th, 2008, 09:49 PM
Your rant on Pokephilia could actually be used for all relationships that are attempted in fics. Love isn't always sex; sex isn't always love.

Some Pokemon, though, could have romantic feelings towards humans. So the romance part is fine. The whole sexual relations though? Squicks me out in a sense.

But yeah. This?

There's more to love than sex, y'know.

Applies to all romantic relationships.

Scarlet Weather
October 26th, 2008, 04:09 AM
Your rant on Pokephilia could actually be used for all relationships that are attempted in fics. Love isn't always sex; sex isn't always love.

Some Pokemon, though, could have romantic feelings towards humans. So the romance part is fine. The whole sexual relations though? Squicks me out in a sense.

But yeah. This?



Applies to all romantic relationships.


Yep. Hence why I added it. XD

Yeah, I addressed Pokephilia specifically ONLY because it's showing up with more frequency these days, and because I felt like addressing a specific target instead of relationships in general.

Blue Shaymin
October 29th, 2008, 12:31 PM
The only thing in the Pokeverse more disturbing than SkittyonWailord action...

Pokemon and humans having a sexual attraction to each other.

The most common offenders are humanoid Pokemon such as Lucario, Gallade, Blaziken, and Gardevoir. Pokemon and human in romantic relationships? It can be done, with work. But the love can't stem from sexual desire. Most people aren't exactly into bestiality. 0.o

Let's see. I've read one, two... about 900 fanfics like that. 800 or so with Gardevoir.

Sweet Jesus.

I mean, I know that Gardevoir is based on a human, but still! People just take it a bit too far.








Too many sex scenes... *shudder*

Ninja Caterpie
October 29th, 2008, 10:32 PM
I only realised you put Blaziken there.
O.o Blaziken? That's not even remotely human! Sure, Alakazam works and Gardevoir and Lucario but BLAZIKEN? My head hurts. xDD

icomeanon6
October 30th, 2008, 02:40 AM
I only realised you put Blaziken there.
O.o Blaziken? That's not even remotely human! Sure, Alakazam works and Gardevoir and Lucario but BLAZIKEN? My head hurts. xDD
I don't know, I think the biggest similarity is probably the fact that Blaziken is bipedal and remotely human shaped.

I can hardly tolerate gratuitously sexual relationships between characters, much less between characters and Pokemon. Well stated, ThesisAlternating Current Coda Xylophone.

Lukespade
October 31st, 2008, 09:26 PM
this really helped wit my fic. unfourtunately there are a few cliche's i have to use because if i didn't... the story wouldn't make any sense... but! thnx to this some of the other uneeded cliche's that i didn't evn realize were cliches are goin to be eliminated

Acrutheo
October 31st, 2008, 09:54 PM
Lukespade, cliches aren't always a weakness, if used sparingly and properly - so don't worry about the necessity of including some of them. It is only when a story is riddled with cliches so that it detracts (or substitutes) the originality of the story that cliches are a problem.

SBaby
November 15th, 2008, 01:25 AM
Rant, rant, rant.

When a trainer finds an abused Pokemon, there is usually a period of time where the trainer rants to whoever is nearby, usually the generic Joy, that trainers who abuse Pokemon are the scum of the earth and deserve to die, all the while slyly implying that they would never do such a thing.


This was my favorite part of your whole spiel.

I laugh every time I read a Fic involving this. Seriously, if the character has THAT much of a problem with Pokemon abuse, then it stands to reason they wouldn't be in a profession where it's legal for them to make their Pokemon fight each other for sport. I'm not saying characters shouldn't be against abuse. I just think if someone's like that, they could go farther than that and actually become an almost original character by being even slightly against Pokemon Battling in general. You don't see that every day.

Scarlet Weather
November 18th, 2008, 06:25 PM
This was my favorite part of your whole spiel.

I laugh every time I read a Fic involving this. Seriously, if the character has THAT much of a problem with Pokemon abuse, then it stands to reason they wouldn't be in a profession where it's legal for them to make their Pokemon fight each other for sport. I'm not saying characters shouldn't be against abuse. I just think if someone's like that, they could go farther than that and actually become an almost original character by being even slightly against Pokemon Battling in general. You don't see that every day.

Glad you liked it. Also glad that the only person with the guts to write a fanfic starring the anime cast as characters in an SPC-like world has taken interest in the guide. XD

Me, I'm not so much against the inconsistency of whining about how awful abuse is as I am the fact that it's basically turned into the standard for establishing a character's yasashii credentials. (Ooh, ACC knows some E-Japanese! Tremble!) That hatred of abuse doesn't really add anything to the character that the audience hasn't intuitively figured out, and isn't really much of a plot point either. That is, unless it results in Eevee joining the party. (And on that note, why Eevee? It's always Eevee. Apparently there are several thousand trainers in the Pokemon world who almost exclusively abandon their cute, rare, fox-y Pokemon to the rain). It's just overdone and frankly it's pointless unless, as you said, it ties into a character's larger objection to Pokemon battling as a sport. Of course, seeing as Pokemon themselves are more than capable of eviscerating humans six ways from Sunday, I find situations where Pokemon are getting abused highly unbelievable. Even the anime wasn't dumb enough to present Charmander as actively getting beaten- he was portrayed as being extremely naive, enough that he believed every word his trainer said. The same thing, I guess, could be said for Chimchar in the Sinnoh arc. Shinji/Paul doesn't hit him with a stick, he just pushes him extremely hard and finally just decides "Okay, I'm through with you." That's about the closest I think you can logically get to abusing a Pokemon.... unless, of course, you like it when that cute little Eevee suddenly tests out the Bite technique it just learned on your spinal cord.

And on that note, I think it's time for another segment of the guide. SPIN ON! JUST WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THIS IS?

THE GUIDE, PART VII, THAT'S WHAT! PIERCE THROUGH THE HEAVENS WITH YOUR FANFIC!

Today, we'll be glancing at a fic genre that I've touched on but hardly covered- PMD fics. Now, the reason I've waited this long to introduce PMD cliches is that not only are they less popular than OT fics (but only just), I've also read fewer well-done PMD fics to establish comparisons than I have good OT fics. However, I just bought Explorers of Time, and so I've been granted a little bit of new insight into the PMD world. So, without further ado, I present... THIS!

I Instantly Believe You!

A strange syndrome that persists throughout the Mystery Dungeon universe- yea, even its canon- in which every Pokemon that the main characer meets automatically believe him when he says that he's a human. Come on, seriously folks. Does the 'partner' have to be this gullible? If I had grown up in an environment where Pokemon civilization has apparently replaced human civilization almost entirely and I found a half-conscious Cyndaquil lying on the ground and saying something about being human, I'd be less inclined to swallow his story and more inclined to drag him to the local village healer. Seriously, if your partner character is inclined to believe obvious misinformation this often, I've got a few acres of bottomland I'm selling with his name on 'em. More importantly, however, there's the fact that it's not just the partner character. Every single character that the leading man of the story runs into is completely won over when he says "I'm a human who turned into a Pokemon." Seriously, this isn't a particularly wise move to take in your stories because it essentially turns the whole thing into an Idiot Plot. Besides, having characters disbelieve the lead- even his own partner- can lead to amusing situations. Imagine that the main character makes the mistake of saying he's a human, and throughout the story everyone who knows him is convinced that he's delusional. Seriously, there's a lot of potential for both conflict and humor that's being missed here.

Because Three's Company Too

Referring to that strange tendency that PMD authors have in adding another Pokemon to the partner/main character core team of the PMD universe. This character is often there from the beginning or recruited very early on into the rescue/exploration team, and is a Pokemon not usually available as a potential recruit in the games until the final phases (i.e., another starter or choice of main character Pokemon). Now, I might not have such a problem with this if said character actually added anything to the story. Generally, however, such a character does not and serves only to be an extra witness to the events of the main storyline. Seriously, if you're not going to do anything story-altering with that character, don't put them in. Characters need a purpose to exist, or they might as well not be there.

Now where have I seen this before...?

Apparently, many PMD fic authors think that simply because the Mystery Dungeon games have a slightly more involved plot than the games of the main series, they can get away with essentially copying the game's story word for word and adding nothing to it. The sound you just heard was my patented boring-fic-o-meter exploding. Seriously, what's the point of transcribing the original game if you're adding virtually nothing to the story or characters? (No, for the record, having the main character turn into a Riolu or Larvitar instead of the usual starting Pokemon and adding an unnecessary third wheel to the main party does not a great addition make). Seriously, when every event is basically copy-pasted from the source material all the fic makes me want to do is go back and play the game for myself. Come on, people, is it really that hard to take a new spin on the characters or story?

Dungeon-Crawlin' Fools

You know, the whole "mystery dungeon" aspect of PMD canon is really basically just one big game mechanic. As in, it makes sense for it to be in the games because they're dungeon-crawlers but doesn't necessarily have to make it into the fic. The environments where your characters are exploring/performing rescue work don't necessarily need to be constantly shifting every time they blink and traversable only by using special sets of teleporting stairs (wut). No, seriously, what? It isn't impossible to write a good PMD fic or oneshot where the mechanic makes the transition from game screen to page, but it's also not exactly the easiest thing to do while maintaining a serious tone in the overall story. Keep that in mind.

Character Diversity- What's That?

Similar to the transcription of plots from PMD games, characters also often make a copy-paste appearance. Common victims include Gengar's gang from the original PMD games as well as Skuntank's group from the newer ones. Even the partner from both games is completely ripped off. Seriously, WTF people. Have you never even thought about the possible characters you could HAVE working together? You could write a fic about, for example:
-A human with a strong sense of duty transformed into a Pokemon and paired with a carefree, excitable partner.
-A main character whose loss of memories impaired his intelligence paired with a super-genius.
-A pair of kleptomaniacs forming a team in order to stay out of trouble.

The possibilities here are endless, people. One of my favorite PMD fics starred a Machop that the main character- a female, kleptomaniac Charmander- nicknamed Loopy due to his apparent mental damage. It was left ambiguous about whether or not Loopy was actually a human, and the fic was never completed, but it was definitely worth reading and if I still had the link for it I'd share it with you.

Well, there ends the guide for today. Until next time, remember: Your pen is the pen that will pierce through the heavens!

(By the way, amusing bit of trivia: the number of characters you're allowed to use for your team name in Explorers of Time is exactly enough to christen your group "Team Dai-Gurren". The fact that the partner in the Explorers games acts more than a little like Simon just makes everything funnier. XD)

Dragonfree
November 19th, 2008, 05:56 AM
The only thing in the Pokeverse more disturbing than SkittyonWailord action...

Pokemon and humans having a sexual attraction to each other.

No. Just no.

Seriously, I don't know what it is with people but it seems to me that I can't look at any forum without finding at least one fanfic with promises of hot Pokemon on human action at some point. The most common offenders are humanoid Pokemon such as Lucario, Gallade, Blaziken, and Gardevoir. However, I've seen much worse in the past, including a story that could essentially be summed up as an excuse for a Charizard to... ugh, we're just going to skip that now, got it? I don't want to be reminded of that fanfic ever again, but I just was. Look, I'll say it straight: I don't care if it never reaches a lemon, romance between Pokemon and humans should NEVER take a sexual turn. I don't know who or what you're writing for, but the fact remains that unless you're writing hot BlazikenonHuman action for a VERY SPECIFIC AUDIENCE composed entirely of PERVS, you shouldn't be inserting this into the main body of a story.

Pokemon and human in romantic relationships? It can be done, with work. But the love can't stem from sexual desire. Most people aren't exactly into bestiality. 0.o

So yeah, keep your mind out of the gutter, those of you aching to write trainerxLucario. There's more to love than sex, y'know.
Huh. I'm late, and risking a lot of accusations being thrown in my direction, but I must say this point mystifies me. How do you go from "Love can't stem from sexual desire" to "HumanxPokémon sex is invariably WRONG and PERVERTED", exactly? I mean, if you were just ranting about love arising from lust (or worse, rape) in general, fine, but that is a point completely unrelated to the species of the partners involved. Provided that Pokémon are in the story portrayed as sapient, I see no reason why romantic attraction should not be able to develop between a human and a Pokémon in just the same way as between two humans. In fact, you already seem to acknowledge Pokémon/human romance just fine. Why, precisely, should it then be invariably non-sexual just because one partner is a Pokémon? The point that there is more to love than sex has no bearing upon this; it is still a fact that romantic relationships have a very strong tendency to involve sex at some point or another, and I really don't see why this should automatically not apply if one of them is a Pokémon. "Most people aren't exactly into bestiality", no, but we're talking about a human who has already fallen in love with a Pokémon, and Pokémon are known to practice interspecies mating with other Pokémon. Besides which the very fact that the Pokémon are sapient changes things considerably from bestiality as we know it: we're talking about the Pokémon having actual romantic feelings and the ability to express them, and the communication of consent for sex is every bit as easy as between two humans. It's a lot more comparable to homosexuality than to actual bestiality, really: two mutually consenting, sapient adults with existing romantic feelings for one another, who would maybe need to be a bit creative with the precise mechanics of potential sexual intercourse, but are very much capable of it and would derive mutual pleasure from it. Why would they not have sex?

Yes, it squicks you, fine, but that doesn't mean it's automatically WRONG and PERVERTED and MUST NOT HAPPEN IN A STORY. Some people are squicked by homosexual sex, and that doesn't magically mean that homosexuals in stories shouldn't have even off-screen sex for fear of offending people. I'm all for providing appropriate warning if a story is going to include a sexual Pokémon/human relationship for the benefit of those who want to avoid it, but a guide like this should point out clichés, illogicalities and other things that have a sensible reason to be avoided altogether, not complain about your personal squicks.

And no, I have never written a sexual Pokémon/human relationship and have no particular interest in doing so. It just struck me as a very narrow-minded point.

Scarlet Weather
November 19th, 2008, 06:10 PM
*shifty eyes*

Okay, who let the bugs into the guide? Guess I need to break out the bugspray... *wanders off*

Just kidding, of course. I'm glad that one of my favorite OT fic authors actually showed up in the guide. And in answer to your question... well, to be honest I'm not even sure how I feel about Pokemon mating with others that aren't their own kind, which really seems to be a game mechanic more than anything else, and it's not one that I think necessarily has to transition from screen to page. But more importantly, the Pokemon/Human relationship thing was included in the guide because it's squick-y to enough people that I figured now would be a good time to point out that it's not exactly a strategy that'll grab you a lot of readers. Plus, it's just... disturbing. It can be rationalized in the method you've pointed out, but honestly I've got to say that it's just plain WRONG. I mean, I'll note that even your R-Rated Scyther's Story fics even have the sex scenes in a "fade to black" manner, by your own admission because you didn't want to explore the mechanics of Scyther sex. This isn't simply a "cliche" guide, it's a "what not to include" guide as well. Seriously? If you're gonna have Pokemon/Human sex and it's really essential to the story, don't do what the fics I'm mentioning here do and transition from story to porn. Go off-screen. Be tasteful. But don't force readers who are already reaching the maximum point on their squick-o-meter to sit through a graphic sex scene if that's not the point of the story. It doesn't add anything, believe me.

And on that note...

OMG GAIZ THIS IZ THE PERSON WHO CAME UP WITH THE SUPER-KEWL NICKNAME CONCEPT I MENTIONED EARLIER AND OMG SHE CAME HERE AND SHE CRITIQUED AN ASPECT OF THE GUIDE AND O-M-G!!!!!

.... You can go ahead and hit me now. Please.

Astinus
November 20th, 2008, 01:09 AM
Then I think you should have reworded what you said, now that you explained it. The way that you originally had it in the guide made it seem like you were against just Pokemon/human relationships. But now that you've explained it, it seems as if you are just against porn in the fic, which sounds less...opressive?

Yeah, romance can actually happen between Pokemon and human (Meowth from the show, anyone?), but I can see what you mean about the exceptionally descriptive smut in the fic that springs on you.

So, you advocate the use of "boot scenes", termed by Tracy Hickman, writer of a few DragonLance novels. Because as you, and he, said, knowing what went where adds nothing to the characters. (Sometimes.)

I can't really comment on your most recent addition, since I don't read PMD fics. XD So...yeah.

Dragonfree
November 20th, 2008, 03:18 AM
o.O Well, I've been following this guide for a while; I guess I never replied before.

I was mostly objecting to this particular statement:

I don't care if it never reaches a lemon, romance between Pokemon and humans should NEVER take a sexual turn.
which I took to be implying that you had something against the very idea of a human/Pokémon relationship being sexual even if all the action went on off-screen; I suppose I just misunderstood you there.

Personally, I'm inclined to think that graphic sex, whatever the species of the participants, does not belong in a serious non-pornographic story if it does not directly serve to get the point of the story across. That is the actual reason for the fade-to-blacks in The Fall of a Leader; if I felt that the story was honestly better served by including all the details, I would do so, but that is very rarely the case. More to the point, I would have been exactly equally morally disinclined, on exactly the same terms, to include the details if the characters had been human - or, yes, a human and a Pokémon. The fact that Scyther are semi-reptilian insects and getting the mechanics to make sense would require some awkward research and figuring is merely an inconvenience, a sort of "Well, I'm glad I won't have to try to figure that out" thing, rather than actually finding it at all wrong or disturbing. I'm generally rather disinclined to be squicked by the idea of sex depending on some physical properties of the individuals involved, as long as they're adults. :/ Meh.

I'm not even sure how I feel about Pokemon mating with others that aren't their own kind, which really seems to be a game mechanic more than anything else, and it's not one that I think necessarily has to transition from screen to page.
It's never really struck me as that kind of game mechanic, but then again all Pokémon hatching from eggs never really struck me that way either, so I'm a bit of a special case.

RedJ
December 4th, 2008, 08:06 PM
Well, I just spent the last hour that I should be spending doing other more important things, and I must say I LOVE THIS GUIDE! But seriously...
1. A CHARIZARD USING EXPLOSION? WHO IN THE HECK DID THAT SO I CAN PERSONALLY GO SLAP THEM!
2. Pokemon mating with humans vise versa....ew. I cant beleive its even been done. I knew about the Gardiviore thing, but....ew. O_O *eyes twitch*

And so many other things...its amazing to think that people are actually doing the things that you have brought up here, and I pity the poor fools. Scary thing is, I found two things in my fic that arent quite considered a cliche yet, but came very, very close. Which is why I would like you to read my fic, though I have only the Prologue up at this point. If I'm trying to do a fan fic that shows the darker side of Pokemon, I need to keep it as original as I can, and all help is appreciated.

But still...really....an EXPLODING FREAKING CHARIZARD?!?!?!? AND HUMAN AND POKEMON LOVE RELATIONSHIPS? WHAT is the world coming to?

Lana.
December 8th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Your most recent entry really gave me some stuff to think about. I'm about to embark on writing a PMD fic (that has its own setting and isn't simply transcribing one of the games). This guide has been excellent, and may have actually given me the inspiration to attempt to write a decent OT fic. Just because I like to attempt the things seen as near-impossible =)

Call it ambition, or maybe I'm just crazy xD

ze_gobou
December 22nd, 2008, 12:25 PM
Mind if I interfere ?

There's something that bothers me a lot in fanfiction and that you didn't include yet (if you did, well, feel free to ignore my post :D). It is that kind of "You disagree with me ? Alright... I challenge you !" thing.

I've noticed this kind of scene structure in the games and it seems to have spread to the world of fanfiction.
First, the hero meets an opponent, often a Team Evil grunt. The hero asks the grunt to let him in the Team Evil base, or to stop doing whatever evil thing he was doing. Of course, the grunt doesn't agree. Then the hero challenges the grunt to a Pokémon battle. If the hero wins, the grunt will do what the hero asked him to do. The hero wins, of course, and the grunt obeys the hero, sometimes even helping him by handing him the key of the elevator.

Seriously... Do you think that an actual member of an evil organization in the real world would accept to stop being evil just because he was defeated at a game like... tennis, or cards, by a ten-year-old ? I don't think so. I'm not against the principle of Pokémon battles between heroes and evil people. Just let me present another scenario, that seems to me more likely to happen.

The hero meets the grunt. He asks him to stop whatever evil deed he's doing. [Optional step : The grunt answers "mind your own business" and the hero insists] The grunt punches the hero in the face (as long as you're not having Bruno from the Elite 4 as your main character :D) or threatens to do so. The hero calls his Pokémon out for help. The grunt does not dare to fight the Pokémon with his bare hands so he summons his own Pokémon, and the battle goes on. The winner, whoever this is, will probably tie the loser to the closest tree with a rope and/or knock him out. The loser won't just kneel and apologize : it is more likely that he will look like he's about to punch the winner in the face anyway, but he won't dare to actually do so because of the threatening presence of the winnter's Pokémon.

This cliché appears in all genres of fanfiction, not only OT, but I though it was interesting to point this out.

Mira
December 22nd, 2008, 09:34 PM
I read this whole thing in one sitting and I have to say I like it immensely :D It's helped me re-think a few things...

But your thing about the whole "chosen one" cliche issue actually gave me an idea ;)

Before you fall to the floor racked with pain at the very thought of another one of... them mysteriously appearing on the forum, please keep in mind that I have read this forum and plan on trying to take the rules to heart and, more importantly, to my writing :P

Yaziyo
December 24th, 2008, 08:02 AM
I started doing a bit of Pokemon writing (don't worry, pretty much nothing like what has been mentioned here) and then found myself reading these forums and onto this guide. Very entertaining.

And honestly, I agree with your first post on human-pokemon relationships, rather than the second, watered down post. Someone compared it to homosexuality, I disagree. I tend of think of Pokemon as the Pokemon world's version of animals, and I'll tell you now, as a completely heterosexual male, I'd much rather have sex with another man than with a dog. And i'm sure that in almost every case in the world, homosexuality is much less taboo than beastiality. Obviously people can love their Pokemon, just as people in the real world love their pets, but how many pet owners do you know who have a romantic relationship with their cat? Of course, it does happen, but when it does, it is considered very unusual and is very probably illegal. The fact of the matter is, unless you have a strong stance on beastiality (either for or against, that's your business) which you would like to express through the use of Pokemon, I'd steer clear of taking your Raticate for dinner and a movie before heading to the back seat of your car.

Anyway, I really have never written a fanfic but I am experienced in Pokemon Role Plays, which is very similar and often just as extreme when it comes to cliches. I have to say, I have been guilty of many of these in the past, although I do seem to be leaving them aside as I get older. For example, in my latest RP (The Grand Tournament, established by Trainer Kat), I played a character who I found extremely fun to write as. He was outgoing and somewhat of a dickhead (objectified women [basically thought with his penis] and a little bit manipulative) but he also was a happy guy who was not violent at all and at the end of the day, just wanted to have fun and try to get laid as much as possible. Whether I pulled it off well enough, you'd need to ask my fellow Role Players, but damn I enjoyed writing as him.

The piece, my first real fan fiction I guess you could say, that I just started writing I don't think falls into any of these Cliches, which is always nice. I try to make the Pokemon world seem as "real" as possible (which I guess I always try to do with my writing style, which is why I never liked it when people randomly slot Japanese words into their writing) with the main character being a teenaged guy who's found himself homeless on the streets of Goldenrod in Johto after running away from home due to his own cowardice. He will find himself working for team rocket as his way of staying alive, with no real moral message when it comes to this, and at the end of the story I will hope to reconcile him with his past and send him back home, maybe to finish school or something.

Wow, I can't believe I just rambled all that, I have to say that a tl;dr aimed at me wouldn't be out of line here. :surprised:

Shrike Flamestar
December 24th, 2008, 09:41 AM
Just one thing I want to comment on here about your post, Yaziyo. You say that because Pokemon are their world's equivilant of animals that it's the same as bestiality. Well, if you do go by that mindset and think of Pokemon as non-sapient creatures who solely thrive on instinct, then yeah, that comparison would be valid. The problem is that not everyone views Pokemon like that. I, for example, view most Pokemon as being sapient beings on the level of humans with the only barrier separating them being that humans couldn't understand them and thus didn't know that they were sapient.

In this case, when Pokemon are viewed as not being mere animals, the bestiality comparison doesn't fit as well, as now it's only the Pokemon's physical body that's similar to that of an animal, not its cognitive ability to return any affections.

Dragonfree
December 24th, 2008, 09:46 AM
I tend of think of Pokemon as the Pokemon world's version of animals
Well, that's just it. When Pokémon/human relationships are portrayed in serious fanfiction, Pokémon are not shown as the Pokémon world's version of animals. They're almost invariably clearly sapient and can communicate with their partner. You can't just say "Pokémon look like animals, and therefore Pokémon/human relationships are comparable to bestiality in the real world"; the reason that bestiality tends to be frowned upon is that we can't talk to animals and they generally have no concept of meaningful love relationships. One can easily make a reasonable argument that a love affair with an animal is emotionally very different from a love affair with another human being, and that an animal can't properly communicate what it wants to the person, making a proper relationship impossible.

When we're dealing with human/Pokémon relationships as shown in fanfiction, these problems are simply not present. The only thing that makes Pokémon different from humans in that case is what they look like and their particular talents and abilities - mentally they're exactly the same. How can you justify them not being able to fall in love, when men are capable of falling in love with other men, people are capable of falling in love with people they've never seen, white people are capable of falling in love with black people?

Shrike Flamestar
December 24th, 2008, 09:54 AM
Hah, we said like exactly the same thing. That's awesome. :O

Yaziyo
December 24th, 2008, 05:10 PM
Yes that is a good point, both your arguments do make sense as Pokemon are often viewed as being as smart as a human. I always did get the sense (in the cartoon and games at least) that Pokemon were capable of understanding human speech but not the other way (pika pika), however I still think that even in the "Pokemon world" the topic would be regarded as taboo.

By all means, write a story on Poke-People mariage, it's just that unless all the other characters are into that kinda thing themselves, you'd expect to see some conflict between the characters about the morality of the issue. However, most of the stories of that kind are something like "Albert and Magmar move in together next to Ash's house in Pallet town and everyone lives happily ever after." This, I find, is pretty damn unrealistic.

Then again, you can ask what really is the Pokemon world? And I think that's where the opportunities for these kinda stories will arise. I have always, when writing Pokemon, written the world as a fusion of what I live in, in real life, and what comes out of the games, cartoon etc. In the end, I get a world with cars, no random japanese references thrown in (<_<) and more "real" characters than other stories (so no 10 year old's who go explore the world and come home with big-ass dragons). I have been further exploring this and would love to either write a fanfic or master a role play for a story set in the real world, exactly as we know it, but with Pokemon in it. I personally find that that makes for a much more interesting adventure. Actually, the idea I had was of some sort of a Pokemon world cup that trainers from around the world went to compete in, complete with protestors boycotting the tournament because "Battling is Cruelty". A moral ambiguity works (at least I think) much better than "the trainer rants to whoever is nearby, usually the generic Joy, that trainers who abuse Pokemon are the scum of the earth and deserve to die" :P

On a side note, the fact that many people write all their Pokemon centre nurses as Nurse Joy and all their police officers as Officer Jenny kinda annoys me. The cartoon used it as a running gag, and for children to be able to know who's "good" and "bad", with identifyable characters, but do you really need to bring it into every Fic, with no explaination and no even surprise by the main character that some crazy lady is following you to every centre you go? Just a little peeve of mine.

Sorry for rambling... again.

Scarlet Weather
December 24th, 2008, 05:44 PM
I've always thought the presence of Jennys and Joys in fanfiction really wasn't all that annoying, primarily because it doesn't really matter who the officer is or the nurse is unless they're somehow important to the plot. And your average Joy or Jenny isn't all that important. For those reasons, I consider it perfectly permissible for Jenny or Joy to be recycled as fanfic characters, since they're just background anyway most of the time and when they are main characters... well, I've actually read a couple of Joy/Jenny POV one-shots that I liked quite a bit. Unfortunately, I never save the links to anything so you all need to take my word for it. XD

As out of the box as "realistic" Pokemon world fics are, I actually tend to avoid over-rationalizing the Pokemon world in my fanfics- and sometimes I go the opposite direction. What draws me to the Pokemon fandom isn't its realism so much as it is its un-realism. Because honestly, how can you really reconcile the real world with a miniature yellow rat with a bizarre tail capable of producing massive amounts of electricity... that can be reduced to the size of a piece of chewing gum and carried everywhere? To be honest, I've read and enjoyed several fics where realism and the Pokemon world meet but there's a limit to the amount I can tolerate- especially when people start throwing in violent character deaths just to make the story more "mature". I think there's a lot of potential in some of the aspects of Pokemon that are extremely silly at face-value, but when exploited correctly can make a good story. There are ways to write a fun, up-beat OT fic without entering the realm of total cliche. I usually add about as much realism as I can stand into a fanfic without totally killing the quirks that drew me to the fandom, and leave the rest intact.

He says as he attempts to remember just when he wrote his last fanfic. XD

I'll say this: I love Pokemon fanfics that don't completely throw out the quirks of canon just to make the fanfic more interesting, and even moreso I love fics that add new and interesting angles to the Pokemon world. My personal favorite Pokemon fanfic will now and forever be Xanthine's "Midsummer Knight's Dream". There's an element of realism there, and it's a very serious story... but it also doesn't add these elements gratuitously. As far as the storytelling and plot are concerned, the fanfic is much better off.

Shinningkit
January 1st, 2009, 07:36 PM
Game Transcriptions:
Sometimes reading stories following the plot of the games is fun, don't get me wrong. But when every event follows the game exactly, and not much is done to differentiate the story from an exact transcription of the game, it gets boring. We all know the game story. We've played it. We're members of the fandom. If you're going to transcribe the game, you need to be doing it from an extremely different angle. The OT story just isn't suited for this.


Hhm. I hate to ask something about your very first page, but I’ve been wanting to rewrite some pokemon games for a while now, and this little tidbit made me wary. It kind of seems contradictory to me, and I’m a little confused. ^^” You say it can be fun to read these fanfics, then you say “The OT story just isn’t suited for this.” The pokemon games are kind of like OT fanfics, right? I mean, you’re a trainer that goes around beating things up and somehow saves the world... or am I just thinking too hard about all of this? ^^”””


I suppose I’m just wondering what you think, or what anyone thinks, really. I don’t want to write something I really like and have everyone bored with it. I’m not going to have the same plot as the game, so maybe this question is just redundant.... Yet, I’m still curious. ^^”
Sorry to blabber on and on about that. I’d talk about your guide and what I think (but I agree with most of it, just to say), however, I have to go. I completely forgot about school tomorrow. I promise I’ll review or whatever sometime soon if you want, kay? =D


PS Sorry if you see random code floating about. I have no idea what I'm doing. XD

Scarlet Weather
January 12th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Hhm. I hate to ask something about your very first page, but I’ve been wanting to rewrite some pokemon games for a while now, and this little tidbit made me wary. It kind of seems contradictory to me, and I’m a little confused. ^^” You say it can be fun to read these fanfics, then you say “The OT story just isn’t suited for this.” The pokemon games are kind of like OT fanfics, right? I mean, you’re a trainer that goes around beating things up and somehow saves the world... or am I just thinking too hard about all of this? ^^”””


I suppose I’m just wondering what you think, or what anyone thinks, really. I don’t want to write something I really like and have everyone bored with it. I’m not going to have the same plot as the game, so maybe this question is just redundant.... Yet, I’m still curious. ^^”
Sorry to blabber on and on about that. I’d talk about your guide and what I think (but I agree with most of it, just to say), however, I have to go. I completely forgot about school tomorrow. I promise I’ll review or whatever sometime soon if you want, kay? =D


PS Sorry if you see random code floating about. I have no idea what I'm doing. XD


To clarify: I'm talking about an OT fic where not only the basic concept but every single plot point is lifted verbatim from the games. I've only ever read one fanfic where that was the case that I liked, but said fanfic was actually not so much about the story as it was the thoughts of the game's hero- who was a silent protagonist in the fanfic as well. Not that they couldn't speak, but rather they didn't, and all their dialogue was internalized. It was something I'd never seen before and if I had the link or memory of where it could be found I'd show it to you as an example of total transcription done right.

However, OT stories with non-silent protagonists who are starting journies a la Ash Ketchum really need more to their plot then simply "follow the dotted line that the game writers laid out". I really don't think the OT genre is able to mindlessly follow the game's storyline without getting really boring really fast.

As for the games being "like an OT fanfic"... it's the other way around. OT fanfics are heavily inspired by the story of the game, so much so that many authors simply give the games a new hero and write from there. But that's so repetitive and mind-numbingly boring that unless the story is less about the events that occur and more about the internal thoughts of the main character, you're not going to have much success with it.

The Ebon Blade
January 13th, 2009, 07:45 PM
this was funny. my favorite "Leave the guns. Take the Zubat". But as funny as it was I'm trying to see how it can help me in my Ranger fic... but most of it is about OT's.

Shinningkit
January 14th, 2009, 06:24 AM
Ah, okay. That makes more sense now- Thank you. I am sorry to have asked, and I don't understand why I didn't see that in the first place. o.O Oh well, I still appreciate it. ^^

And do you have any recollection of where you found that fic? The one with the silent protagonist, I mean. I was just going to see if I could find it for myself, but it's alright if you can't or don't remember. ^^ I just had an idea for a silent protagonist, but instead my fiction had the character as a mute... sorta. Her voice was stolen by a Haunter, but I still thought it would be close enough. ^^''

Your guide has really helped, and I'm glad you decided to take the time and write it. It was particularly funny as well. It made me laugh along with my thinking. I basically agree with the guide as a whole, so I'm not going to nitpick at it.

I thank you again. =D Sorry to take your time. ^^ *offers cookie*

yuki3056
February 26th, 2009, 08:02 PM
I want to be an author when I grow and I one day stumbled across fanfics and now I have read many different kinds (yes even lemons, while some are completely out of line some of them show a different side of pokemon and have plots and I even read one with very tasteful human on pokemon, I did not "enjoy" it if you know what I mean but it gave very intresting insights on the closeness of humans and pokemon, although this is viewed as the worst thing out there by some I think some of them have deeper meanings and the sex is just a symbol of a bond that can not be put into words. There is a line however that many cross and yes these should not be used. That was posted a little late I know but I felt like I needed to add my 2 cents worth lol.


As for the other things I read a very enjoyable OT fic that closely followed emerald and yet it varied in many ways. I can't really explain it and I do not remeber the title or author lol I will find it someday..

Heart's Soul
March 14th, 2009, 12:13 PM
I think I should add that I avoid everything listed here, as something will happen later on with Neo.

This is the basic idea:

Neo saves pokemon, pokemon sleeps, wakes up, attacks Neo and steals his food.

Rabbit
March 23rd, 2009, 06:56 PM
The only thing in the Pokeverse more disturbing than SkittyonWailord action...

Pokemon and humans having a sexual attraction to each other.


Gahahaha. There's an Ash x Mew fic up here...my initial impulse was to leave a comment about bestiality. (Come on, tell me it's not the first thing that comes to mind.) It's a perfectly innocent fic, which makes it even worse. Apparently the author doesn't see a connection between "relationship" and "sex."

This is a fantastic guide to cliches everyone should be aware of. Actually, it kind of reminds me of TVTropes.org, especially the bolded titles. You haven't been hanging around that site, have you? It could easily be a coincidence, though, as they take their trope titles from the most popular examples ("by your powers combined", for instance.)

For those of you who haven't been, TV Tropes is a wiki on tropes, 'storytelling conventions,' complete with scores of examples on how they can be used, lampshaded, parodied, and subverted. Amazing stuff, and most of it applies to fanfic writing.

Anyway, I clicked on this guide while wondering why Journeyfics are such a popular, er, genre. By definition, they all follow the same format. Even avoiding the major cliches won't make it an excitingly original piece of writing. Every reader knows what's up: the trainer will recieve a starter, battle hundreds of random trainers, beat gyms, beat the Elite Four and become Champion. Wo-hoo. Not my idea of a good read. It's like watching someone else play through one of the video games. Why haven't people given up on writing these? There are so many other ways to write an OT. Your trainer doesn't have to be a newbie, and they don't have to dream of beating the League. They could just be an average citizen who uses Pokemon for protection, as part of their job, or for sport. The way people are stuck on this idea of preteens who go on Pokemon journeys, you'd think the Pokemon world was full of nothing else. Their economy must be run solely by PokeBall and Potion sales.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, a guide like this is fantastic, but aspiring writers should be encouraged to diversify their efforts a little and avoid writing Journeyfics altogether. No matter how you coach them, they won't come up with anything refreshingly original.

Huh. I'm late, and risking a lot of accusations being thrown in my direction, but I must say this point mystifies me. How do you go from "Love can't stem from sexual desire" to "HumanxPokémon sex is invariably WRONG and PERVERTED", exactly? I mean, if you were just ranting about love arising from lust (or worse, rape) in general, fine, but that is a point completely unrelated to the species of the partners involved. Provided that Pokémon are in the story portrayed as sapient, I see no reason why romantic attraction should not be able to develop between a human and a Pokémon in just the same way as between two humans. In fact, you already seem to acknowledge Pokémon/human romance just fine. Why, precisely, should it then be invariably non-sexual just because one partner is a Pokémon? The point that there is more to love than sex has no bearing upon this; it is still a fact that romantic relationships have a very strong tendency to involve sex at some point or another, and I really don't see why this should automatically not apply if one of them is a Pokémon. "Most people aren't exactly into bestiality", no, but we're talking about a human who has already fallen in love with a Pokémon, and Pokémon are known to practice interspecies mating with other Pokémon. Besides which the very fact that the Pokémon are sapient changes things considerably from bestiality as we know it: we're talking about the Pokémon having actual romantic feelings and the ability to express them, and the communication of consent for sex is every bit as easy as between two humans. It's a lot more comparable to homosexuality than to actual bestiality, really: two mutually consenting, sapient adults with existing romantic feelings for one another, who would maybe need to be a bit creative with the precise mechanics of potential sexual intercourse, but are very much capable of it and would derive mutual pleasure from it. Why would they not have sex?

Yes, it squicks you, fine, but that doesn't mean it's automatically WRONG and PERVERTED and MUST NOT HAPPEN IN A STORY. Some people are squicked by homosexual sex, and that doesn't magically mean that homosexuals in stories shouldn't have even off-screen sex for fear of offending people. I'm all for providing appropriate warning if a story is going to include a sexual Pokémon/human relationship for the benefit of those who want to avoid it, but a guide like this should point out clichés, illogicalities and other things that have a sensible reason to be avoided altogether, not complain about your personal squicks.

And no, I have never written a sexual Pokémon/human relationship and have no particular interest in doing so. It just struck me as a very narrow-minded point.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I guess the issue is whether Pokemon are people or not. If they are, there isn't anything extremely wierd about them having relationships with humans. I would argue that Pokemon are essentially animals. First, most of them are based off of animals in appearance and behaviour, and they're used in battle the same way one would command a guard dog. The anime portrays them as sentient but in a cutesy talking animal fashion, while the games make little attempt at this. If Pokemon really have the status of people, why don't they have the same rights? Why can humans imprison them and control them? The very idea of commanding a Pokemon dehumanizes them. Finally, most Pokemon don't look human - even Machoke is significantly different from hômo* sapiens - all of which makes the situation resemble bestiality.

What I find interesting is how a lot of people replying to AC Coda X have agreed that there's a significant difference between romanctic and sexual attraction. Frankly, I can't see it. But that is probably way too off topic for this thread. :B Bleh heh heh.

* Did you know that this word is bleeped out by the filter?

Bay Alexison
March 23rd, 2009, 07:40 PM
I don't think you can just get rid of the "Journeyfic" genre altogether. I do agree that though that there should be more originality in the journeyfic. For instance, the story could start off with the character getting badges, but then a conflict comes and that pulls the trainer out of that route for sometime. Might not be the most original way to go through it, and yes there has been a few fics like that, but as long as the execution is right (like characters and pace), then I'll be fine with that.

I think the reason why journeyfics are popular is because some of the readers actually would like to read a story just about a trainer and their Pokemon going on a journey. Not everyone are into action and such. Some like reading easy going, feel good kind of stories, like how some people (like me) like watching slice of life anime.

solovino
March 23rd, 2009, 08:18 PM
This is a fantastic guide to cliches everyone should be aware of. Actually, it kind of reminds me of TVTropes.org, especially the bolded titles.

...

For those of you who haven't been, TV Tropes is a wiki on tropes, 'storytelling conventions,' complete with scores of examples on how they can be used, lampshaded, parodied, and subverted. Amazing stuff, and most of it applies to fanfic writing.


You know what makes this even better?

Thesis AC Coda's guide is actually quoted at one of the fic tropes page. If I recall correclty, the quote is featured as one of the "header samples" at the “Fan Fiction” trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanFic?from=Main.FanFiction) page. Could there be a better place?

I concur with The Ebon Blade W/R to "Leave the guns. Take the Zubat". I am actually trying to write my entire Team Rocket incluing so as to, as TVTropes would call it, "subvert the trope". I hope to actually do well with that.

What else can be covered in the guide? I actually would like to read more about possible PMD tropes. That's a subject not deeply covered in FF yet. Also I would like to read something about the technology clichés in the Pokémon World, in particular when it comes to the apparently so easily available megaships in the movies, or the Joy/Jenny Initiative.

Giratina ♀
March 24th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Thesis[/s] AC Coda's guide is actually quoted at one of the fic tropes page. If I recall correclty, the quote is featured as one of the "header samples" at the “Fan Fiction” trope (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FanFic?from=Main.FanFiction) page. Could there be a better place?

Oh yeah.
I did that. x3

Come on, it really does fit!

And yes, some explainetions for other things would be nice, but this is an Original Trainer fic guide. If we wanted stuff about PMD's Mandatory Villainous Exploration Teams or Big Epic Scary Villain Airships, who would look in an OT guide? This guide has really covered just about everything that I can think of about OT fics and their... various problems.

Heart's Soul
March 24th, 2009, 03:43 PM
I just realized that this thread was revived. Still, time to avoid everything so far on the list.

ze_gobou
March 29th, 2009, 09:35 AM
I didn't find the link on the TV Tropes page, sorry. Is it still there ?

JX Valentine
March 29th, 2009, 11:57 AM
I didn't find the link on the TV Tropes page, sorry. Is it still there ?

Alas, someone took it down. And replaced it with more propaganda about how fanfiction sucks.

To avoid derailing the topic with a long rant, I'm just going to say that whoever thinks fanfiction sucks fails to realize that a lot of modern original fiction sucks just as much. I mean, come on. Eragon? Seriously?

Scarlet Weather
April 11th, 2009, 05:24 PM
Alas, someone took it down. And replaced it with more propaganda about how fanfiction sucks.

To avoid derailing the topic with a long rant, I'm just going to say that whoever thinks fanfiction sucks fails to realize that a lot of modern original fiction sucks just as much. I mean, come on. Eragon? Seriously?

And I didn't get to see it. >.<

If anyone can remember what was quoted, I would LOVE THEM FOREVER. Seriously.

And now for the more fun stuff.

He's back. And he's ready for more.

It's ANOTHER PART OF THE GUIDE. And we're so tired of the wait we're not even going to number it.

Well, I'm back again. Blame the Yu-Gi-Oh fandom and Windows Live Messenger for my LONG absence this time. I've been crawling through dark caverns people. DARK FREAKING CAVERNS. And I've come out smelly, dirty, and prepared to dish out some Farla-level pain on the world of bad and cliched fanfiction. And I'll begin by pulling you down as well. You know, you'd think in all the time I've had to write this guide, I'd have covered this cliche by now. But I haven't. So without further ado, I give you...

Kingdom Hearts was right! The worlds ARE connected!

And you crossed over to prove it. That's right, this is talking about all those wonderful fanfics where somebody from the "real world" crosses over through a dimensional portal to the "Pokemon world" via one of the following: Mysterious portal in space, experiment gone wrong, magical ritual of death, or Ye Olde Legendary Power. Why did they come over? Er... three possible choices. One, they intended to cross to a new world and just happened to end up in the Pokemon world. Two, they just... did. Because. And three, they're the Chosen One from Another World destined to Save Both Worlds or else Die Trying. They're often young, often inexperienced, and always ultimately end up Pokemon trainers. And just what's wrong with this particular cliche?

Well... it's not so much the cliche as how it's used. I have never once seen a fanfic with a trainer from another world where said trainer did ANYTHING that somehow justified giving him this random mark of specialness. The fact that the character is from another world is almost an afterthought, what's really important is that they are Special and Chosen and Destined to Do Something for the Good of Both Worlds. And it can be REALLY annoying. Because nothing's more annoying than a pointless Stu being given another mark of Special. So if you're going to to this cliche, go ahead and subvert the norm as much as possible. It's rarely worth the trouble of justifying the otherwordly origins of your character.

Weakest to Strongest

The unsung law of Pokemon. If a trainer captures a weak and sickly Pokemon, given proper training and several trainer-Pokemon bonding scenes, it will inevitably toughen up and become a key member- nay, even the ace- of that trainer's team. It can be a sweet, lovable story when it's done well, and with Pokemon like Eevee evolving based on happiness in some cases it can make sense.

But let's be realistic people. Sometimes, a weak Pokemon is a weak Pokemon. It'll never be as strong as the other members of the team. Hey, it may even be useless. But that doesn't mean it can't be involved in the plot. Nobody ever wants to give their trainer a weak Pokmon- or more specifically, a Pokemon that's no good in battles. So do the right thing. Give all those poor weak Pokemon that never become aces a home in your fanfics. Also, I'm collecting donations for those Pokemon to build a sanctuary for them. Contributions are appreciated.

Strong as the Plot

A Pokemon's strength is determined by what the author needs it to do. If the story calls for the Pokemon to be strong enough to take down the gym leader's ace in a head-to-head fight, so be it. If the story later requires that same Pokemon to lose out to some hotshot trainer who's wet behind the ears, well, so be it. A trainer whose strategies are brilliant one moment may need to become an idiot next, depending on what the plot requires.

When executed by a good author, this cliche can result in a suspenseful, thrilling story where you can never tell who's going to win, but if the author's incompetent, it just looks like they didn't bother to make things consistent. If you're unsure of your abilities, err on the side of consistency- if you say a Pokemon is strong enough to do something, be sure it remains strong enough to do it.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
April 11th, 2009, 05:34 PM
Weakest to Strongest

The unsung law of Pokemon. If a trainer captures a weak and sickly Pokemon, given proper training and several trainer-Pokemon bonding scenes, it will inevitably toughen up and become a key member- nay, even the ace- of that trainer's team. It can be a sweet, lovable story when it's done well, and with Pokemon like Eevee evolving based on happiness in some cases it can make sense.

But let's be realistic people. Sometimes, a weak Pokemon is a weak Pokemon. It'll never be as strong as the other members of the team. Hey, it may even be useless. But that doesn't mean it can't be involved in the plot. Nobody ever wants to give their trainer a weak Pokmon- or more specifically, a Pokemon that's no good in battles. So do the right thing. Give all those poor weak Pokemon that never become aces a home in your fanfics. Also, I'm collecting donations for those Pokemon to build a sanctuary for them. Contributions are appreciated.

Lol, never mind fanfiction, this happens in all aspects of the canon/fanon. Have you seen the anime?

Feign
April 11th, 2009, 05:56 PM
Very nice guide! :) I'm in the middle of still planning my fic, and am guilty of a bit of the beginning cliches, which I am trying to iron out, but I find that the rest of the story's idea, is at least unique, as it won't follow the usual gym trainer thingy.

And like you said, encountering a legendary pokemon is pretty redundant. Which made me think, it can still be quite interesting if my character instead, came across a ton of hummm I don't know, Magmars or something (or at least making the location rare).

And yes... pokemorphs and beastiality scare me too.

solovino
April 12th, 2009, 12:02 PM
As usual, I love to see this guide stays active. Strong as the Plot is officially the second most favourite section to me (after "Leave the Guns. Take the Zubat.". Seriously, that section is, like, the Omega of OT fics). It is short, concise, and well targeted.

With regards to "Strong as the Plot" itself, there's not much I would be able to add, except that remind potential writers plus myself that, unlike what happens in short TV shows (where this all too common), written media allows for a different, wider range of paces, much less restricted, so "OMG! I suddenly lost against a L8 Wurmple!" shouldn't be of need to establish the new character's antagonist credentials. Case in point: Ash's Pikachu for every new season, the animes of Captain Tsubasa and other sport-based series.

Oh and it's good to see an all too different kind of Do Not Includes: I had never ever thought of "World Are Connected" fics. A good thing the subject was brought up.

And, now, for AC Coda X's "LOVE THEM FOREVER. Seriously." [sic]:D -- What was quoted at TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/)'s "Fan Fiction" entry was the bolded section of this paragraph:

"But my OT fic is different!" I hear you exclaim. "Can't you see how different it is from the others? My fanfic has a girl as the main character!" Or, "My fic has an evil team that isn't necessarily evil!" Or "Mine ends with the main character not becoming League Champion, or saving the world!" I have a newsflash for all of you: This is the internet. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, writing Pokemon fanfics. Chances are that at least one of those hundreds of thousands or millions of people is not only writing a Pokemon fanfic with an extremely similar plot to yours, but unless you have evidence that proves otherwise there is a very good chance that this person is doing a better job of it than you are. Even in fics that are large departures from the standard OT fic, there's a surprising amount of authors writing stories with almost paralell plots. Of course, the stories aren't exactly the same. The writing styles and characters of both authors usually differ ...

And it was credited something among the lines of:
Thesis' Original Trainer Fic Guide (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=140933), Poke-Community forums


(yes, with that spelling for "PokéCommunity")

Why was the quote deleted?
reason: Don't need three quotes
27/Mar/09 at 10:49 PM by Andrew 72.128.12.23


This seems to have taken place during a series of (detrimental, as pointed out by Xanthine) edits, triggered by a discussion on the subject of SelfInsertFic and Lemon less than one month ago... :'(