Pokemon Platinum Competitive Discussion - Alternate Forms + Move Tutors

[Tortured_Soul]

I dont see a point in this thread any more since the OP has left pc.

http://shoddybattle.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/shoddybattle/ShoddyBattle/platinum.mod

Complete changes.

[Dark_Azelf]

This will be a continuation of ScyKinG's thread as its complied into one post it will be easier to find.



Anyways, according to people testing on smogon ABSOLUTELY NONE of the alternate pokemon formes are usable on wifi at all. However they can be used on local battles (As in 2 players face to face irl) with two copies of Platinum.

[rikanai.]

Good job compiling everything, T_S. :3

All I want now is a full Move Tutor list. I'm not in the Battle Area yet, so I can't check if Nincada gets Endeavor. ;w; But I'm happy with a lot of stuff- specially Trick Clefable, Superpower and Heat Wave Honchkrow, Heat Wave/Ominous Wind Chatot.

[sims796]

This will be a continuation of ScyKinG's thread as its complied into one post it will be easier to find.



Anyways, according to people testing on smogon ABSOLUTELY NONE of the alternate pokemon formes are usable on wifi at all. However they can be used on local battles (As in 2 players face to face irl) with two copies of Platinum.
Oh boy. I'm gonna say the same thing I said on that thread.

AT THE MOMENT,NO FORMES ARE USABLE. HOWEVER, THAT DOESNOT MEAN THAT THEY WILL STAY THAT WAY.IT IS FAR TOO EARLY IN THIS GAME TO CONSIDER THAT AS FACT, AND NO OFFICIAL WORD HAS BEEN GIVEN OUT. SO BEFORE WE WRITE THIS OFF AS FACT, WE MUST WAIT AND SEE WHAT UNFOLDS.

[DarkTyphlosion157]

Anyone who says Outrage Mence is uber will get slapped across the face hard, thought I'd let you know.

Slight depression at Typhlosion getting no new 'decent' attacks.

Ah yes, you forgot Heatran in the move tutor list.

[Magmortified]

Desperately hoping alternate Rotoms make it into the online stage, 'cause they're a big part of my planned team. D:

I've gotta say that for all those "FIVE FORMES" shenanigans Nintendo pulled on us, it was surprisingly disappointing. I'd have settled for two different formes if they got the same kind of attention Deoxys did.

[DarkTyphlosion157]

Well, when you've run flat out of ideas and you must make a 3rd installment to something, what else would you get?

Who cares about Platinum anyway?

Also, just HOW do thet lose the unique move? Does it self-delete or something?
Well...I can see Fridge and Toaster forms being the only useful ones. The others didn't need existence.

[Aurafire]

Desperately hoping alternate Rotoms make it into the online stage, 'cause they're a big part of my planned team. D:

I've gotta say that for all those "FIVE FORMES" shenanigans Nintendo pulled on us, it was surprisingly disappointing. I'd have settled for two different formes if they got the same kind of attention Deoxys did.

At least the deoxys formes are cool looking....rotom just got changed into random household appliances....

I don't think rotom's new formes are going to push it out of UU though....sub-par HP to nullify its defenses. Although the news moves for each particular one are cool.

[sims796]

Yes. As forms change, they lose watever move they learned.

[Magmortified]

At least the deoxys formes are cool looking....rotom just got changed into random household appliances....

Few of 'em look cool, though.

But I get the feeling the electric bits on some, like, say, fridge forme, were just to try and throw fans off. =P

I don't think rotom's new formes are going to push it out of UU though....sub-par HP to nullify its defenses.

They'll probably see an influx in usage if they hit Shoddy though... probably all of the things that got cool stuff from Platinum will.

To be honest, I think Rotom's actually become a lot more usable like this. Spiritomb (which is essentially the model here) wasn't entirely crippled by a lack of HP. It got by on typing and general bulkiness, which I think is what gives Rotom the boost. It doesn't get Pain Split, admittedly, but it's become an excellent Scizor counter. Not to mention that - though on admittedly shaky terms - it's gotten the ability to counter Gyarados, Mamoswine, and Lucario (assuming it doesn't pack Crunch, but almost every attempt to counter Luke in Platinum's going to be assuming it doesn't pack x move). Huge threats that Rotom can take out. It could very well find an OU niche, given time.

[shedinjask]

I don't think rotom's new formes are going to push it out of UU though....sub-par HP to nullify its defenses.

They have Spiritomb defenses. Weaks, yes, but also a huge speed advantage and more SAttk in exchange for less Attk. They also have a different movepool, less stallish and more tankish. I can see them in BL.

Also Shaymin gets Earth Power. Oh god.

[Glitter Stain]

I think Azelf could run a Life Orb set now.

Azelf @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Toxic
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch

Or even a Scarf/Band set

Azelf @ Choice Scarf/Band
Jolly/Adamant Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch
Toxic/Fire Punch

[Mike™]

I think Azelf [S-HIGHLIGHT]could run a Life Orb set now[/S-HIGHLIGHT].

Azelf @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Toxic
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch

Or even a Scarf/Band set

Azelf @ Choice Scarf/Band
Jolly/Adamant Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch
Toxic/Fire Punch

Hell yes, Band Zelf for the epic win. Anyway, it couldn't run a Band set before? .___.;

[Glitter Stain]

Hell yes, Band Zelf for the epic win. Anyway, it couldn't run a Band set before? .___.;
I think you know what I meant. ;-;

Physical Zelf Life Orb, not just regular Zelf Life Orb.

[Mike™]

I think you know what I meant. ;-;

Physical Zelf Life Orb, not just regular Zelf Life Orb.

Yeah, I saw that just now. I thought it said 'Band'. >___> Now I feel retarded. :<

But yeah, looks good on the sets.

[Tortured_Soul]

Ok, so people...

I'm looking for some movesets for these pokemon. If we can start with movesets, then we can work through counters and see what tier we believe each should be slotted into etc.

PLEASE NOTE: Origin Forme Giratina MUST have Platinum Orb to stay in said Forme, meaning no Choice Scarf/Band/Specs, Life Orb sets etc. are able to be used. It's either Platinum Orb or nothing.

~T_S

[Aquilae]

Heatom @ Choice Scarf will make a nice Lucario check with Overheat and stuff. Frostom is by no means a replacement for Glaceon, no STAB and lower SpA =/ Heatom is about the only useful one here, the rest can run some gimmick Specs sets (Cutom), Spintom seems useless in comparison to the others. Rotom can still run a tanking set though, just choose a random form that your opponent would react to accordingly as next to none of the moves are really useable.

Shaymin needs Fantina's Flower from the 11th movie Shaymin to evolve (use the 11th movie Shaymin and talk to an NPC or something), so its not possible to get it without hacking or going all the way to Japan to trade right now.

[Tortured_Soul]

Ummm, no, because I have a Skymin in-game. I traded over my 11th Movie Shaymin I got in the Wireless Trade Centre and talked to the woman in Floarama, who gives you the Glacidea's Flower.

Also, I just checked the Move Tutor moves, and Shaymin gets:

Sky Shaymin: Mud Slap, Seed Bomb,Air Cutter, Ominous Wind, Snore, Synthesis, Last Resort, Swift, Zen Headbutt
Land Shaymin: Mud Slap, Seed Bomb, Endeavor, Earth Power, Snore, Synthesis, Last Resort, Swift, Zen Headbutt

*Checked by yours truly. ;)

Seems a SD set is possible with Skymin, unfortunately it doesn't get any decent physical grass STAB. =(

~T_S

[Shiroi Togekiss]

Sky Shaymin @ Choice Specs
Timid
252 SPATK/4 SPDEF/252 SPD
Earth Power
Seed Flare
Air Slash
HP Fire

OU killer much?

[Samson]

wait so it hasn't been confirmed whether the alternate rotom forms are usable on wifi? that's a disappointment.

[sims796]

Please, nothing has been confirmed. They say it's official, but it has only been like, a month that the game is out. Before we jump to conclusions, at least wait until in comes out in America.

[DarkTyphlosion157]

If Origiratina was holding the Platinum Orb (no good item? I told you it would suck!) and something used Knock Off or Trick on it, what would happen?

[Get Out of My Honey Pot, Ursaring!]

Seems a SD set is possible with Skymin, unfortunately it doesn't get any decent physical grass STAB. =(

~T_S

Isn't Seed Bomb a decent Physical Grass STAB?

[sims796]

I wonder why it lacks Leaf Blade.

[Dark_Azelf]

I wonder why it lacks Leaf Blade.

A high crit ratio move on a poke with Serene Grace ? T_T Get out of my forum lol


Even if Skymin may or may not be usable, specs regular shaymin looks really appealing anyway.

Shaymin@Choice Specs
Modest Nature
252 SPEED / 252 SPEED / 6 HP
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Hidden power Fire
- Psychic / Grass Knot

[sims796]

Skymin=Simon

If it is usable, it should be able to outspeed base 120[5] pokes, right?

[shedinjask]

Yes, it has a 127 base.

Skymin (and I assume the other formes) is usable in local link battles and will be implemented on Shoddy.

Platinum Orb requirement sucks, but I guess you can still use it.

[sims796]

Oh great. Not this thread too. I thought I didn't have to deal with this here, like in that other thread full of idiots.

I don't see why everyone is claiming this as a fact. to say this one last time, as I am tired of saying this.

WE DO NOT KNOW AS A FACT WHATWILL HAPPEN WHEN PLATINUM GETS RELEASED IN THE U.S. AT THE VERY LEAST, WE SHOULD WAIT UNTIL THAT ISOUT BEFORE WE CAN JUDGE SHAYMIN & OTHER FORMES INCOMPATABLE WITH WIFI. WE HAVE NO CLUE WHAT WILL HAPPEN IN THE NEAR FUTURE.


I am not saying that they will change it to make Shaymin & forms wifi compatable, but I am saying that it is far too early to say it isn't as a fact. Wecan all wait and see by the time it is released in the US what unfolds.

[Samson]

DA, i don't think critical hits are involved as added effects. it is an entirely different entity in the data breakdown. so even if it had leaf blade, i don't think it would double the high crit rate. that being said, seed flare w/ serene grace is ultimately better anyway. even bronzong/skarm won't manage to refrain from getting their sp def doubly reduced on the switch then be finished off with a series of air slashes.

[sims796]

I thought Steel resisted Flying? Doesn't matter, as Flinchmin handles them.

Oh, and Mud Slap could be fun to abuse as well.

[Dark_Azelf]

I think Azelf could run a Life Orb set now.

Azelf @ Life Orb
Jolly Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Toxic
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch

Or even a Scarf/Band set

Azelf @ Choice Scarf/Band
Jolly/Adamant Nature ; 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Ice Punch
Zen Headbutt
Thunderpunch/Fire Punch
Toxic/Fire Punch

(Woot Toxic on choice users !!)

(Hey i do that >=[)

The second set is cool, ive been testing it somewhat and came up with and narrowed it down to this one

Azelf@Choice Band
Jolly Nature
42 hp / 252 att / 216 speed
- Fire Punch
- U-Turn / Thunderpunch
- Zen Headbutt
- Explosion / Ice Punch

I love the idea of CB U-Turns to spank around Tyranitar, although bulky waters may be problematic, which is a case for t-punch. Fire Punch is pretty much obligatory for steel types. Last slot should be up to preference Ice Punch for Uber Mence and what not and CB Explosion from base 125 att, need i say more ?

I also had a crazy idea of adding Hidden power Ground in that last slot for Heatran, but i thought it might not be worth it.

Shame, i dont see trick being too useful on the dude. Although it gets Knock off which could make for some great suicide lead set=).

Speaking of elves with Knock off and Trick, Uxie and Mesprit get it too which could be cool.

DA, i don't think critical hits are involved as added effects. it is an entirely different entity in the data breakdown. so even if it had leaf blade, i don't think it would double the high crit rate. that being said, seed flare w/ serene grace is ultimately better anyway. even bronzong/skarm won't manage to refrain from getting their sp def doubly reduced on the switch then be finished off with a series of air slashes.

Thank goodness, because if it did get Leaf Blade and the high crit was taken into account, i would complain even more about it =p.

[Samson]

zen headbutt should do enough damage to the bulky waters that can take u-turn.

i like cb azelf a lot more than np =)

[sims796]

It doesn't matter. SD Vileplume will beat down Azelf & take his lunch money.

Vileplume@Life Orb
Nature:Adamant
Seed Bomb
Drain Pawnch
Double Edge/Sleep Powdah
Swords Dance
EV:Max Atk & Max Spd

A GAWD IN TEH SUN.

[Samson]

drain punch would be hilarious to use on a blissey. just once and i'd be satisfied for a lifetime. well maybe just a day, but you get what i mean =/

[sims796]

Actually, a Swords Dance Drain Punch that gets a Critical Hit would be just Golden...

[Tortured_Soul]

Isn't Seed Bomb a decent Physical Grass STAB?

lol, I obviously need to check more on my own postings in fututre. :x

EDIT:

Skymin@Life Orb
Adamant/Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Serene Grace

Swords Dance
Seed Bomb
Air Cutter
Zen Headbutt/Return

Skymin@Choice Band
Adamant
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Serene Grace

Swords Dance
Seed Bomb
Air Cutter
Return

Skymin@Life Orb/Choice Specs
Timid/Modest
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Serene Grace

Seed Flare
Air Slash
Earth Power
Hidden Power Fire

_________

Another Forme Giratina:

Giratina@Leftovers
Impish
EV's: ???

Spite
Substitute
Dragon Claw/Pulse
Will-o-Wisp/Rest

[ABYAY]

Swords Dance on a CB set? I don't like that. Also, can Sky form NOT get Aerial Ace? That's a shame...Ah well, try this on for size.

Skymin@Life Orb
Jolly/Hasty
252atk/236spd/20HP

Swords Dance
Seed Bomb
Return
Hidden Power Fire

Only fully resisted by Heatran. Earth Power makes you walled by Skarm, Bronzong and Shedinja.

This is the best you can get from an SD set from Skymin IMO. There's also...

Skymin@Leftovers
Timid
252speed/252sp.atk/6def

Substitute
Leech Seed
Seed Flare
Air Slash/Hidden Power Fire

Subseeding Skymin is the quickest in the game. Explanation not needed.

[Dark_Azelf]

I was thinking this could be a really fun set

Cresselia@Choice Scarf
80 HP / 252 SP.ATT / 176 SPEED
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Hidden power Fighting / Hidden power Electric
- Trick

375 speed which puts you above + speed 120's. =)

[Tortured_Soul]

Swords Dance on a CB set? I don't like that. Also, can Sky form NOT get Aerial Ace? That's a shame...Ah well, try this on for size.

Skymin@Life Orb
Jolly/Hasty
252atk/236spd/20HP

Swords Dance
Seed Bomb
Return
Hidden Power Fire

Only fully resisted by Heatran. Earth Power makes you walled by Skarm, Bronzong and Shedinja.

This is the best you can get from an SD set from Skymin IMO. There's also...

Skymin@Leftovers
Timid
252speed/252sp.atk/6def

Substitute
Leech Seed
Seed Flare
Air Slash/Hidden Power Fire

Subseeding Skymin is the quickest in the game. Explanation not needed.

Sorry, I was in a hurry to type them down and in my haste...well.

[Archer]

I still can't see why Game Freak decided to put Air Cutter over Air Slash as a Tutor move. It could have made Zapdos very happy.

[Samson]

i don't think it'd made zapdos all that happy except for when running specs or scarf or something, and even then mixed sets are still pretty successful with drill peck and uturn. overheat, on the otherhand, is a major gift to zapdos. seriously, that's all it really needed to take on the usually resistant magnezone and some bulky grass.

i just noticed that overheat gave chatot a serious chance in both UU and BL. chatot is something that would've definitely loved to have gotten air slash and perhaps some other usable special attack (night shade but no shadow ball = dumb). hypervoice and overheat give it OK coverage with strong attack options while hp ground does less damage than hypervoice. moveset would probably be hypervoice/overheat/nasty plot/X, x ranging from sub to taunt or encore. hmm, maybe even night shade... nah.

[Tortured_Soul]

Overheat? Did I miss something? Or do you mean Heat Wave. If it got Overheat...Moltres becomes redundant.

~T_S

[Samson]

oh oops. i confuse the two so easily when i've never used either xD

[Get Out of My Honey Pot, Ursaring!]

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Own Tempo
Careful Nature
252 HP / 252 SDEF / 6 ATK

Aqua Tail
Zen Headbutt / Return / Slack Off
Zen Headbutt / Return / Slack Off
Curse

Finally got Physical Water STAB. I've been dying to use this since D/P came out.

Solrock @ Life Orb
Levitate
Adamant Nature
252 ATK / 252 Speed / 6 HP

Stone Edge
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake / Explosion
Rock Polish

Killer.

Omastar @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Swift Swim
Modest Nature
252 SATK / 252 HP

Surf
Ice Beam
Earth Power
Hidden Power [Electric]

Can see this moving up to BL.

Donphan @ Choice Band
Sturdy
Adamant Nature
252 HP / 252 ATK / 6 Def

Earthquake
Stone Edge
Fire Fang / Seed Bomb
Ice Shard

My little elephant may become relevant again. :D

Rhyperior getting Aqua Tail is potentially deadly. Swords Dance Celebi looks pretty awesome.

[ABYAY]

Platinum is really pumping the unexpected into the metagame. I personally think it's going from just counters to revenging and heavy prediction, needing an analysis of the team and making people think. For example, someone has a CB Salamence, a MixApe, and a ?? Lucario on that team. Everything else is made of walls. According to my guess, that would be a SpecsLuke to fill in the "Tri-attacking" offense (something I ran in earlier days of D/P.)

But really, I dunno; that's my educated guess. Oh yeah; Apostle, couldn't that Slowbro set also work for Slowking? It has higher sp.def, and Curse will boost its defense up too. It could work for both.

[Dark_Azelf]

Tyranitar@Life Orb / Expert Belt
200 ATT / 252 SP.ATT / 28 SPEED / 30 HP
Quiet Nature
- Super Power
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam

Platinum "Boah" lol.

[Syaoran]

I don't see why Omastar needs Earth Power - just for Empoleon? (HP electric is still useful against that AND Gyara).. still having problems against Ludiculo.

[rikanai.]

I don't see why Omastar needs Earth Power - just for Empoleon? (HP electric is still useful against that AND Gyara).. still having problems against Ludiculo.

Lanturn, Toxicroak, Qwilfish?
You can just then use HP Flying for Ludicolo. :D

[Faceless*]

Lanturn, Toxicroak, Qwilfish?
You can just then use HP Flying for Ludicolo. :D

Lanturn eats up the poor Omastar :x

OK, so Salamence now gets Outrage? Ouch. Wouldn't that make a decent CB Set?

Salamence@Choice Band
EV's : 4HP / 252ATK / 252SPD
Nature : Adamant/Jolly
Moves :
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Rollout Stone Edge
- Crunch? Nah

Could tear down walls, Crunch for Cress switching in, EQ for the ones that resist Outrage/Stone Edge, and so on etc.

If you would argue that Outrage only keeps the poor Mence in.. I'm pretty sure the switch ins, IF they are faster, will be obliterated (If they hold Focus Sash... then this set blows)

[Tortured_Soul]

Tyranitar@Life Orb / Expert Belt
200 ATT / 252 SP.ATT / 28 SPEED / 30 HP
Quiet Nature
- Super Power
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Ice Beam

Platinum "Boah" lol.

The death of us all... :x

[shedinjask]

The death of us all... :x

Pfft, Boah is so last gen.

Dragonite @ Life Orb
170 Attk/216 SAttk/124 Spd -- Naughty
Superpower
Thunderbolt
Fire Blast
Draco Meteor/Ice Beam

Superpower against standard Blissey- 101-118% OHKO
Thunderbolt to Bulky Gyara- 125-148% OHKO
Ice Beam to Gliscor (no Sp Def/252 HP)- 172-203% OHKO
Draco Meteor to Zapdos (252 HP)- 75-89% 2HKO (1 w/ SR up)
Draco Meteor to Celebi (252 HP)- 66- 77% 2HKO
Fire Blast to same Celebi- 72-84% 2HKO
Draco Meteor to Cresselia- 55-65% Meh..
Thunderbolt to Vaporeon- 56-66% (add 10% to each for Draco Meteor) 2HKO
Ice Beam to Hippowdon (252 HP)- 75-89% 2HKO
Draco Meteor to same Hippowdon-83-98% 2HKO (1 with Stealth Rocks up)
Fire Blast/Tbolt to Skarm- no need to calculate OHKO


I'd just skip Ice Beam and go for Draco Meteor.

[Camara]

Poor Pidgeot, my favourite pokemon loses in being so balanced, I'm glass someone improved Pidgeot's movepool with Heat Wave. At least it has now something against steel types. The closest thing to a wall breaker bird now (I said the closest thing).
Iron Defense Skarmory and Donphan? Win in physical defense. Donphan also got Seed Bomb, that's good.
Metagross doesn't learn Thunderpunch? That is... weird.
Outrage tutor? C'mon at least Salamence doesn't get it... but... he... oh no... DD + Outrage Salamence = fear.

Lol at Endeavor Blissey.

[Shiroi Togekiss]

Poor Pidgeot, my favourite pokemon loses in being so balanced, I'm glass someone improved Pidgeot's movepool with Heat Wave. At least it has now something against steel types. The closest thing to a wall breaker bird now (I said the closest thing).
Iron Defense Skarmory and Donphan? Win in physical defense. Donphan also got Seed Bomb, that's good.
Metagross doesn't learn Thunderpunch? That is... weird.
Outrage tutor? C'mon at least Salamence doesn't get it... but... he... oh no... DD + Outrage Salamence = fear.

Lol at Endeavor Blissey.
olololol wut?

Pidgeot just doesn't have the SPATK needed to use Heat Wave =/