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Netto Azure
December 4th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Canada halts Parliament amid row. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7765206.stm)

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper has won a bid to suspend parliament, blocking an opposition attempt to topple his minority government.

The governor general agreed to Mr Harper's request, unprecedented in the country, after talks.
If the request had been rejected, he would have had to step down or face a confidence vote he was sure to lose.
A Political Storm is brewing after the Opposition Parties (Liberals, New Democratic Party, and Bloc Quebec) have declared to forming a coalition to topple the recently elected (Parliament has only been in session for 2 weeks!) Conservative Minority Government "due to the Economic Crisis." I truly am against it due to it's undermining of democracy.

I don't mind really whichever party is in power in Canada since you guys already have the social safety nets such as a Universal Health Insurance Policy and adoption of the Kyoto Treaty (which you guys are lagging from XD) that I am advocating in the US. But trying to topple the democratically elected Conservative Minority Government just recently re-elected is undermining democracy.

If you live in Canada this petition's for you: http://canadians4democracy.ca/index.php?lang=e

So what do the Canadians and people here think?

Alakazam17
December 4th, 2008, 03:29 PM
I overheard some people talking about this while I was getting groceries yesterday, XD.

Anyway, I find it awesome that the Bloc is actually deciding to team up with the NDP and Liberals, XD. As I seem to recall the Bloc usually teams up with the Conservatives, heh. I don't like what they stand for(Quebec separatism), but I will give them points for this. ^^

I would have liked it to go through, because I dislike the Conservatives and I hope they get out of power. Thus I am annoyed that Harper has done this, despite his so-called "reasons."

Netto Azure
December 4th, 2008, 03:38 PM
I overheard some people talking about this while I was getting groceries yesterday, XD.

Anyway, I find it awesome that the Bloc is actually deciding to team up with the NDP and Liberals, XD. As I seem to recall the Bloc usually teams up with the Conservatives, heh. I don't like what they stand for(Quebec separatism), but I will give them points for this. ^^

I would have liked it to go through, because I dislike the Conservatives and I hope they get out of power. Thus I am annoyed that Harper has done this, despite his so-called "reasons."

I understand that you are an anarchist but you guys just had an election a month ago and Parliament has been in session for only 2 weeks, and now secret back-room deals are trying to topple the Canadian Conservatives. Seriously give the thing some time to work before starting overthrowing Minority Governments XD. But eh...I just hope everything works out for the best. =/

See ya later. ^_^

Yuoaman
December 4th, 2008, 03:43 PM
I think that we should just leave Stephen Harper where he is, he won the freakin' election, live with it, you'll have another chance.

parallelzero
December 4th, 2008, 03:46 PM
I understand that you are an anarchist but you guys just had an election a month ago and Parliament has been in session for only 2 weeks, and now secret back-room deals are trying to topple the Canadian Conservatives. Seriously give the thing some time to work before starting overthrowing Minority Governments XD. But eh...I just hope everything works out for the best. =/

See ya later. ^_^

You talk like it's the work of our entire population, when it's mainly just the political parties. Most of the population apparently doesn't give a crap, seeing that we turned out with the lowest voting percentage ever with the last election.

I don't like Harper, I have adjectives to describe him that I can't use on this board, but I really don't think this is the best way of dealing with things. The Liberals certainly aren't in any condition to be taking control, either.

But I don't appreciate having our country compared to the likes of the US. Our government systems aren't really similar at all. Australia or the UK would be better places to compare us to, really.

Alakazam17
December 4th, 2008, 03:51 PM
Well, we had the election two months ago, and that was only because Harper called it a year early because he thought the Obama win would hurt his chances. >_<

Furthermore, the fact that the left is represented by three parties has been hurting their chances in elections. Back when the right was two parties, a similar thing began happening, with the Tories getting just twelve seats one time.

And heh, minority governments are meant to be overthrown. While all Canadian prime ministers are allowed to stay in power for five years, the longest that a PM with a minority government has stayed is about 3 years. And the shortest term goes to Arther Meighen, whose minority government lasted a whopping 88 days. XD

But my views actually made me misunderstand your post then, XD. I was thinking you meant it was wrong that Harper was stopping it, whereas now I think that you are saying that it is wrong that he has to stop it at all. Wow, XD.

Cherrim
December 4th, 2008, 04:41 PM
I'm totally undecided as to where I am in this. Stupid politics.

On the one hand, I think Harper is pretty cocky. I know parliament just started, but to jump from the gates with controversial stuff that he KNOWS no one else is gonna like? I can see why everyone jumped at his intention to drop public subsidies. I mean, yeah I know, the "put your money where your mouth is" is what he was trying to say to the different parties but of course that's not going to fly well. I don't think it's anything to topple the government over but man, it's not a smart move either. The amount that would be saved from that isn't very much and all it did was fuel anger in the other parties and make everyone else thing he's just kicking them when they're down. (The Conservatives stand to lose a LOT less money compared to the other parties if that went ahead--they'd only lose something like 35% of their total "income" and the other parties are somewhere like 65~80% iirc.) Not only that, but I think it's ridiculous to make the first thing you bring to the table--in the midst of a worldwide economic crisis--an update consisting mostly of cuts. Nuh-uh, not when every other world leader is injecting billions into their economies to keep up infrastructure, create jobs, etc. (I'm also aware that Canada's kind of been doing this for a long while now--but even so, action IS needed.) It's only the other day when the Conservatives finally admitted that, yeah, we're gonna be running a deficit. They aren't instilling me with much confidence at a time like this and the house seems to agree with me.

And... on the other hand, we have the other parties who pretty much just seem butthurt. It's bad that the kneejerk reaction seemed to be more "OH NO OUR MONEY" instead of (what they changed quickly to) "oh, hey wait, WHERE'S YOUR STIMULUS PACKAGE?" Good going, there. I feel really insecure about this whole thing. Especially since it sounds like they were planning this behind-doors for a while before this actually blew up. I also dislike the fact that they need the Bloc's support. Yeaaaaaaaaah, I really want a party who has ONE PROVINCE'S best interest at heart and couldn't give a damn about the others. At least they signed an agreement saying they'd shut up about separation for at least... 18 months, I think it was? Regardless, it does worry me that the party that tips the scales in the Coalition's favour is one that is pretty much Québec only. So long as that province gets through this okay, they don't care about the rest of Canada's economy, or people, or anything. (I know not all Bloc or their supporters are like that, and I say all this at the risk of sounding like Harper, but they don't run outside Québec for a reason.) I think the Liberals and NDP should have formed a Coalition even before the election two months ago since now it just seems ridiculously rushed.

However, even today I have no idea which of the three options was more in favour of. They're all terrible. I must admit, I do not envy the poor GG today. :P Poor woman is jetlagged and had to make such a huuuuge decision. I didn't want another election because come on, we JUST had one and I don't really want to spend another $300k on a new one (even if that's SPENDING at least <_<). But I do NOT want Dion as Prime Minister, since I think he's just a terrible leader--so a Coalition taking power isn't a very great option, not to mention I'm still uneasy about the Bloc. And finally, I HATE the idea of proroguing the whole thing! This is a world economic crisis. And while I'm glad the Conservatives were pushed to bump their budget up to January, I think it's ridiculous that we have to wait that long before any sort of economic stimulus or support is brought to the table. I certainly hope the situation isn't as serious for Canada as the Tories have been leading us to believe because if it is, we're going to be lagging and trying to play catch-up when we finally start getting on track with a stimulus package, etc.

The thing I'm not sure a lot of people understand is that in Canada, we don't elect our prime minister we elect our representatives in the house and, well, I guess we hope they vote in our interest. But it's never certain; some MPs switch sides, some don't always vote with their party on every issue, etc. Also, we vote for MPs based on parties, but the parties themselves are the ones who elect their leaders. So if the Coalition comes into power and Dion becomes Prime Minister, he'll be stepping down and the LIBERAL PARTY will be electing our new Prime Minister. I think I'm in the minority when I actually don't mind this. I accept that this is how my government is and I'll deal with it. I think it's ridiculous that people are whining about the fact that it's possible for this Coalition party to wrest control of Parliament when "they aren't who the people voted for." Because, um, yeah, they are who you voted for. You entrusted them to make decisions for you and this is what they decided. The majority of the house wanted Harper gone and they teamed up to do it. No, it's not a democracy quite like the US but that doesn't mean it's not a democracy. I like how Alakazam17 put it. "Minority governments are meant to be overthrown." Yeah, not entirely accurate, but it is what happens. Any PM who governs with a minority has to tread carefully, has to present everything with utmost care. It's like walking on thin ice--you have to make sure everyone is at least content, no curve balls, just a nice transparent parliament where you have to know that you'll have support before you present something. Harper didn't do that so if he gets overthrown (or if he had gotten overthrown today), that wouldn't be undemocratic. It's just how we work.

I really wish everyone would grow up, play nice, and just work together to get us out of this crisis but that would be expecting too much from politicians. :( Also lolol this post hasn't been edited or looked over because I have to go eat dinner now.

On another note! Is anyone else willing to team up to start the "Buy the Liberal Party of Canada a new camcorder" fund? God, Dion's speech last night was good in text but I honestly could not watch it.

Phixum
December 4th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Guys, get over it. It happens more often than you think. I'm positive things will get back on track, if not better. It's not the end of the world, nor is it the end of Canada's future.

Netto Azure
December 4th, 2008, 05:45 PM
You talk like it's the work of our entire population, when it's mainly just the political parties. Most of the population apparently doesn't give a crap, seeing that we turned out with the lowest voting percentage ever with the last election.

I don't like Harper, I have adjectives to describe him that I can't use on this board, but I really don't think this is the best way of dealing with things. The Liberals certainly aren't in any condition to be taking control, either.

But I don't appreciate having our country compared to the likes of the US. Our government systems aren't really similar at all. Australia or the UK would be better places to compare us to, really.

I do apologize if it appears that I am pointing at the Canadian people for this. (To be frank my 4th Grade there was one of my better years. =D)
I did expect Canadian turnout to be better than 50% due to the US Elections and the way people were intently following it. It's just that forming a coalition (That is shaky with the Bloc in there) is not the way to go. We are in the middle of a Global financial crisis and focus must be put on stabalizing it rather than partisan bickering. I do understand the basics of Parliamentary Government and the fact that the opposition parties can do this, but with that heavy Liberal loss in October, this isn't the way to go.

Well, we had the election two months ago, and that was only because Harper called it a year early because he thought the Obama win would hurt his chances. >_<

Furthermore, the fact that the left is represented by three parties has been hurting their chances in elections. Back when the right was two parties, a similar thing began happening, with the Tories getting just twelve seats one time.

And heh, minority governments are meant to be overthrown. While all Canadian prime ministers are allowed to stay in power for five years, the longest that a PM with a minority government has stayed is about 3 years. And the shortest term goes to Arther Meighen, whose minority government lasted a whopping 88 days. XD

But my views actually made me misunderstand your post then, XD. I was thinking you meant it was wrong that Harper was stopping it, whereas now I think that you are saying that it is wrong that he has to stop it at all. Wow, XD.

Whoops...my mistake i forgot that the Canadian elections were in October while the US one in November XD Well I guess extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. But it's still unnerving on what is happening up there. =/ But as i said I don't mind whichever party is in power as long as Democracy is ensured



I really wish everyone would grow up, play nice, and just work together to get us out of this crisis but that would be expecting too much from politicians. :( Also lolol this post hasn't been edited or looked over because I have to go eat dinner now.

I totally Agree...but that's politics. =/

Guys, get over it. It happens more often than you think. I'm positive things will get back on track, if not better. It's not the end of the world, nor is it the end of Canada's future.

I know that, but with a Global Financial Crisis politicians should be tackling that instead of Partisan Bickering. As i said I hope everything works out for the best. =/

TRIFORCE89
December 4th, 2008, 09:46 PM
Harper could be a nicer, but this entire thing is ridiculous.

I can see this working if Harper had minority only because the other parties split the vote. But, that didn't happen. The combined amount of seats the NDP and Liberals hold is still less than the amount the Conservatives hold. So, the NDP and the Liberals are NOT the majority or a stronger minority. In the last election, the Conservatives gained 19 seats, the Liberals lost 26. The Conservatives currently have the strongest seat advantage out of all the minority governments in Canadian history. And the Liberals had their worst loss ever.

I understand how our system works and, yeah, this is who we voted for. We voted for the Conservatives. Be it a majority or minority, whoever gets the most votes wins. The stronger your win the better, and you have to govern accordingly to what you won. But no chance to govern has occurred, this is all resentment of the man left over from his first win. Talks of a coalition began during the last election and you know what the Liberals said? They said it would be bad for the economy!

Even if it is legal that doesn't make it moral. The Bloc won seats in Quebec, they're in the house, they have every right to be there, blah, blah, blah. But they don't represent Canada - they represent Quebec and only Quebec. The NDP and the Liberals would represent Canada - but they don't have the seats. They need help to achieve the numbers they need. The Bloc aren't a part of the Coalition, only the NDP and Liberals, but the Bloc had to sign off in support because under normal circumstances you can't overthrow a minority government with a coalition of an even smaller minority. But apparently we are which doesn't make sense.

Parliament was in session for about ten days. I don't think there was anything for anyone to even vote on. How can the first vote of Parliament be a vote of no-confidence? Especially when nothing has even happened yet? They freaked out over a speech. The whole point of this system, especially in a minority situation, is for the parties to be working together and offering suggestion. You didn't like what was in the speech? Fine, come up with a solution or wait for some vote to be held. You don't go and do this after just 10 days. Just wtf!?

Speaking of confidence...they're saying they lost confidence in Harper. Fine. Then why replace him with another leader who doesn't have confidence of the house? The Liberals (who would make up the majority of the coalition) don't have confidence in Dion and want him to resign even earlier.

Compared to the rest of the G20, Canada's doing pretty darn well. We're not even in recession yet. A day or so before the economic update Harper even said that a stimulus package is a given. Because it didn't show up in a short speech is the problem? If the problem is all over language and semantics then the house will have a field day with Dion.

Of the three options I wanted either an election or having parliament prorogued (which we got). What good would a vote of no-confidence have been on next Monday when Parliament heads out for recess next Friday. They wouldn't be back until after the holidays. So, they would've been in for just a few days short of what Harper got and then...nothingness. Alrighty then. So, we leave Parliament a week early? Big deal. At least the Conservatives can go work on the budget and the Coalition can go come up with some policies because that would be just a little bit important.

With parliament being prorogued, the Conservatives can at least actually present something before being shot down - which the opposition has every right to do; it's just that a legitimate reason would be nice. And not liking the budget would be such a reason.

And instead of a coalition just taking over I would prefer another election, yes. Even if the Conservatives lose. I know it's how our system works, but it's stupid. I've liked our system over the American-style up till now. Having the party who suffered their worst loss ever step in and overthrow the strongest minority government ever after just 10 days of Parliament looks like an abuse of the power that was granted to the Liberals by the people of Canada.

The entire thing is childish, stupid, and irresponsible. We have bigger issues at hand to focus on right now. Could you not choose a better time to be sore losers?

Netto Azure
December 5th, 2008, 12:56 PM
And heh, minority governments are meant to be overthrown. While all Canadian prime ministers are allowed to stay in power for five years, the longest that a PM with a minority government has stayed is about 3 years. And the shortest term goes to Arther Meighen, whose minority government lasted a whopping 88 days. XD

But my views actually made me misunderstand your post then, XD. I was thinking you meant it was wrong that Harper was stopping it, whereas now I think that you are saying that it is wrong that he has to stop it at all. Wow, XD.

Seriously I would love to support the Liberals or the NDP due to their stance on the Environment but with the Global Economic Crisis, I believe the fiscal restraint of the Conservatives to be better for Canada since you guys already have the Social Safety nets such as Universal Health Care that I would love to have here in the US. And to be frank if you believe that (I'm sorry =x) Stephen Harper to be "Bush-lite" all I can say is...It's worse here in the US than there. I can say that in Canada "It can be worse" while in the US "It can be better." That's why I fully supported the Liberalism of Barack Obama since we are already deficit spending like crazy here why not add some Canadian and European-like Welfare State programs while we're at it. If we can give more than a Trillion $ to "save" the Financial Sector, why not the people? ^_^

Sorry for the Misunderstanding. But the thing is that it looks weird that the Executive Branch is part of the Legislative and can be overthrown through a vote of no confidence. I'm just more used to the US Federal System, but I would prefer a Parliamentary System due to it's prevention of gridlock by the Executive and Legislative. =D Much more representative to the will of the people. ^_^