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Red1530
December 31st, 2008, 01:53 PM
For the past five days Israeli forces have attacked Hamas positions inside the Gaza Strip in retaliation for ever increasing rocket attacks. Israel has rejected a propose forty-eight hour truce due to fears that it will allow Hamas the opportunity to regroup. It also appears Israel is on the verge of a ground offensive.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7805558.stm

Map of Combat Area
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45337000/gif/_45337354_gaza_isreal1.gif

On January 3, 2009 Israeli forces have crossed the border into Gaza (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,475576,00.html).

Gunn
January 6th, 2009, 07:23 PM
Good. I hope Israel is kicking Hamas' ass right now. I'm not even surprised at what Israel has done; merely a move of retaliation that's all. They've been telling the U.N. for years that if something wasn't going to be done they will take this matter into their own hands and look, they got sick of waiting and sick of the increasing about of attacks fired on them. Shows what a big help the U.N. is.

Go Israel.

Virtual Chatot
January 6th, 2009, 07:30 PM
As someone who is learning Hebrew and wants to live in Israel someday, I'm very much inclined to root for them :P

You cannot negotiate a ceasefire with someone who is driven by religious zealously and is wanting their virgins...When will the U.N. ever understand this?

Allstories
January 6th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Israel bombs innocent civilians and children in a school being used a shelter. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-death-un)

Way to be the better man, Israel.

Haza
January 6th, 2009, 10:47 PM
Wow all this violence in the world. Makes me feel unsafe and that a red sky is coming.

Went
January 7th, 2009, 01:04 AM
You know, killing over 500 people, at least 150 civilians, and 5 soldiers of your own army is, how to call it, a completely brutal and out of proportion "response" to the little missils (not even proper missils) they were sending.

The only result of this will be giving Hamas more strenght out of their hate against Israel, because that's what keep them alive: hate.

I wonder when they'll realize that a proper discussion will always be better than murdering innocent kids and people you kicked out of their own country. Amazed on how some countries still support this senseless war.

You cannot negotiate a ceasefire with someone who is driven by religious zealously and is wanting their virgins...When will the U.N. ever understand this?

As far as I know, the Palestinian just want their territory, which was occupied by Israel, back.
And, if you can't negotiate a ceasefire because they are very close-minded (the Israeli aren't, of course), what's your solution then? Killing them all? Making another Holocaust? Please.

Netto Azure
January 7th, 2009, 11:56 AM
Even though I defend and support Israel's right to exist...I believe that the Palestinians should also be allowed nationality. But the problem is with Israel in the middle of the West Bank and Gaza strip, and the initially proposed UN treaty notwithstanding, governance is a problem. How can one government form from these two areas and govern properly? It might turn into a Pakistan-Bangladesh schism for all we know. (Which is probably already is with Hamas controlling the Gaza Strip and Fatah in the West Bank.)

I fully agree with Went's assessment on this which is why a truce should be initiated...since if this continues when Obama's inaugurated, he might be distracted on the need for economic attention. It's a good thing Hillary's Sec. of State-appointed

Current Situation map: BBC- Israel accepts "Truce Principles" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7815929.stm)
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45350000/gif/_45350941_gaza_gedera_map226.gif

Kazukii
January 7th, 2009, 11:58 AM
I wish all this trouble would just end.

Netto Azure
January 7th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Well Starzy, if the world was like that...We would have Universal Healthcare in the US, Energy Independence, Controlled CO2 levels, a surging economy, a 99.9% College Enrollment and graduation rate, Cross-time traffic, an active United Nations or...

This Google News in a much happier, peaceful dimention...^_^ (http://www.fugue.com/pics/goodnews.html)

If the world was only like that...Seriously "A New Era Dawns for China and Tibet?" and "Rowling: 'I have heaps more to write about Harry'" just TT^TT

Yamikarasu
January 7th, 2009, 02:51 PM
OK, in my opinion, the US should not support Israel, for reasons made clear the past few days. Neither side is right, and they are both just playing a costly game of "well he started it!"

If they are going to act like children, they need to be treated like children. The Israelis and the Palestinians need a time-out. Any of them that are willing to grow up and act like humans, they can leave. Those of them that claim that "god gave us this land" or whatever they justify themselves with can stay in, without supplies from other countries, until they learn to live with each other.

What Hamas is doing is bad. What Israel is doing is no better.

True Reign
January 7th, 2009, 02:56 PM
Yamakarisu, you have to realize that that is how countries act. They want to act like children making them go into a fight, a.k.a. war.

I'm personally rooting for Israel. It's about time they acted.

Yamikarasu
January 7th, 2009, 03:02 PM
So War is fine? It's OK that people die as long as it is classified under "War?" I realize that this is how countries act, it has been that way since the first tribes existed. That doesn't make it any less stupid or childish.

This is no ordinary war, it's the worst kind of war, it's a war fueled by religion.

This conflict has been going on for the better portion of the century, and is not going to end unless both sides agree. Neither side is going to agree, of course, because they believe that somehow their god is on their side, and this is his will. So root for Israel all you want, they won't win unless the other side lets them.

Netto Azure
January 7th, 2009, 03:52 PM
Well Yami-san, I do relatively agree with what you say...but the "Opium of the Masses" is what gives a majority of the worlds population the mental strength to continue on the next day. =/
Hay...if only people can accept Israel's right to exist and stop thinking that there religion "Is the one and true Religion" I mean if you think the other guys belief system will send them to the netherworld...then let leave them alone, It's NOT YOUR PROBLEM...If you think you'll go to heaven if you follow your beliefs...then go do so...just leave others to their own devices, They have brains to come to their own conclusions you know...Ugh that's why imperialism and forcibly converting "the heathens" is complete nonsense.

Let's be clear here though. I'm Roman Catholic, but I don't let that cloud my judgment on thinking about others. I fully support Israel and the Palestinians right to exist, but this senseless 60-year religious blood feud should stop and at the very least accept peace treaties and designated UN borders. =/

mulch_ar
January 8th, 2009, 01:37 AM
OK, in my opinion, the US should not support Israel, for reasons made clear the past few days. Neither side is right, and they are both just playing a costly game of "well he started it!"

If they are going to act like children, they need to be treated like children. The Israelis and the Palestinians need a time-out. Any of them that are willing to grow up and act like humans, they can leave. Those of them that claim that "god gave us this land" or whatever they justify themselves with can stay in, without supplies from other countries, until they learn to live with each other.

What Hamas is doing is bad. What Israel is doing is no better.

I agree with you. But as I heard they WON'T and can't live with eachother 'cause the Israel hate Palestine's religion maybe untill the end of the day

Horizon
January 8th, 2009, 05:11 AM
More information. The news has just told me that Lebanon has now fired at least three rockets into Northern Israel, opening up the possibility of a second front:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/War-In-Gaza-Rockets-Fired-Into-Israel-From-Lebanon-And-Israel-Strikes-Area-Near-Egypt-Border/Article/200901215199286?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15199286_War_In_Gaza%3A_Rockets_Fired_Into_Israel_From_Lebanon_And_Israel_Strikes_Area_Near_Egypt_Border

Went
January 8th, 2009, 05:21 AM
"Israeli forces have fired mortars into Lebanon after rockets fell on northern Israel, the army has confirmed.

A Lebanese policeman inspects a crater believed to be left by rockets fired at Israel from the village of Tayr Harfa in southern Lebanon

The move was "a pinpoint response at the source of fire", a military spokesman said."

Well, if this develops into a general war in the zone, then we can definitely say this is going nowhere. Innocent people are dying, and Israel is hardly getting to destroy the missil-launching bases. The US and the UK are supporting the war and the EU and Sarkozy aren't getting anything. The UN please asks for a ceasefire... this is very, very sad.

In my inner self, I want a general war in the zone if it can solve this once for all, for one side or for the other. But my mind knows that killing people has no point, whoever ends up winning, so... I just can't see how some people can have so much anger and lack of respect for other people to end up like this.

God save all the innocent people there, if he still remember they exist, because if we have to count on a real person...

ErickaVolt
January 8th, 2009, 05:24 AM
Wow, this war is getting the oil prices in the world market kicking again.

Red1530
January 8th, 2009, 08:10 PM
The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for a cease-fire (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478245,00.html). What I do find troubling however, is Iran stating that they will assist Hamas (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477890,00.html).

Amachi
January 8th, 2009, 08:38 PM
More information. The news has just told me that Lebanon has now fired at least three rockets into Northern Israel, opening up the possibility of a second front:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/War-In-Gaza-Rockets-Fired-Into-Israel-From-Lebanon-And-Israel-Strikes-Area-Near-Egypt-Border/Article/200901215199286?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15199286_War_In_Gaza%3A_Rockets_Fired_Into_Israel_From_Lebanon_And_Israel_Strikes_Area_Near_Egypt_Border
From what I've heard it wasn't actually Hezbollah this time, but a Palestinian group based in Southern Lebanon. I actually hope Hezbollah don't get involved, otherwise Israel will cause much more damage than last time.
The UN Security Council has passed a resolution calling for a cease-fire (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,478245,00.html). What I do find troubling however, is Iran stating that they will assist Hamas (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,477890,00.html).
What's new? Iran always supports those against Israel. I like how they called them "homicide bombers" haha.

Netto Azure
January 8th, 2009, 11:10 PM
Well at least the UN Security Council is doing something. =/ They are supposed to be doing that you know...But then again it was a 14-15 vote WITH THE US ABSTAINING! D=< WTH? The US should get in with the program and demand a truce. We have a frekin' $800 Billion Stimulus Plan and $1.2 Trillion Federal Budget Deficit to worry about you know! Hay...whose position was it to abstain...The Bush Administration or the Obama Transition? (Dang it's hard to find out whose making decisions when in a transition of this magnitude) cuz' it looks like Bush has virtually disappeared in the Public Eye.

And oh my if this conflict expands...eh it would be sad to say the least. Too bad they couldn't evacuate and Foreigners from there...and the fact that the UN has suspended distributing supplies in Gaza will only cause more suffering. D=
Oh well sorry for the forceful tone but the world has too many pressing problems that we can't do anything about except discussing them...T_T

Route 18
January 9th, 2009, 01:51 PM
The Middle East is like a powder keg. There is always a reason for war there. Sometimes Israel will be responsible and other times, another country will start it. But if you go to the roots of Israel's formation, you will see whose fault it is. Israel was given one territory in Palestine in 1947. Over the years, other countries attacked it in opposition to the stupid decision to place Jews in a Muslim-controlled Middle East. Israel also wanted more territory in Palestine, invading all but two of the territories of Palestine. They just want an excuse to flush out the remaining territories. This is a perfect excuse for it.

Being a Muslim, I don't want any war at all. It is something us Muslims hate and don't want. But if our brothers are being killed, we have to do something. Not by attacking innocent people in other countries not involved in the war, rather, we should send aid to Palestine in the form of food. We should launch protests and try to convince everyone to help the innocent.

Virtual Chatot
January 9th, 2009, 02:03 PM
And, if you can't negotiate a ceasefire because they are very close-minded (the Israeli aren't, of course), what's your solution then? Killing them all? Making another Holocaust? Please.

Let me brush you up on a little history lesson. During the British Mandate of 1948, Britain took it upon itself to carve up the collapsed Ottoman Empire into countries. Out of all the Ottoman Empire, a fraction of one percent was given to the Jews in order to make their own country in the Balfour Declaration. I'll repeat, a fraction of one percent.

Ok so here, what is your solution then? You can't negotiate, you can't kill them, and they won't hesitate to kill you.

I'd love to see your answer
OK, in my opinion, the US should not support Israel, for reasons made clear the past few days. Neither side is right, and they are both just playing a costly game of "well he started it!"

If they are going to act like children, they need to be treated like children. The Israelis and the Palestinians need a time-out. Any of them that are willing to grow up and act like humans, they can leave. Those of them that claim that "god gave us this land" or whatever they justify themselves with can stay in, without supplies from other countries, until they learn to live with each other.

What Hamas is doing is bad. What Israel is doing is no better.
This is not a simple game of Chess my friend, Islamic Radicals are firing rockets into Israel unprevoked. Islamic Radicals have declared a holy war against Israel and all of its allies.
Another History Lesson, It is a historical fact ( Roman Records Show ) that there was a Jewish rebellion against the Roman Empire in Israel in 33 A.D. Before that, there is also archeological evidence to suggest that the Jewish nation and religion had been living there in Pre-Grecian Empire Times. While, Islam started in the 7th Century A.D.

"Israeli forces have fired mortars into Lebanon after rockets fell on northern Israel, the army has confirmed.

A Lebanese policeman inspects a crater believed to be left by rockets fired at Israel from the village of Tayr Harfa in southern Lebanon

The move was "a pinpoint response at the source of fire", a military spokesman said."

Well, if this develops into a general war in the zone, then we can definitely say this is going nowhere. Innocent people are dying, and Israel is hardly getting to destroy the missil-launching bases. The US and the UK are supporting the war and the EU and Sarkozy aren't getting anything. The UN please asks for a ceasefire... this is very, very sad.

In my inner self, I want a general war in the zone if it can solve this once for all, for one side or for the other. But my mind knows that killing people has no point, whoever ends up winning, so... I just can't see how some people can have so much anger and lack of respect for other people to end up like this.

God save all the innocent people there, if he still remember they exist, because if we have to count on a real person...
There is always going to innocent lives taken in war, but Israel would never deliberately attack Innocent people. When you have the guilty ones standing in a crowd of 100 innocents, and you know the guilty one has the potential to take out millions of innocents, what's the logical choice?
Being a Muslim, I don't want any war at all. It is something us Muslims hate and don't want.
Oh Really?
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)
lay them wherever you find them...Idolatry is worse than carnage...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme." (Surah 2:190-)
"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

I think the quotes speak for themselves.

Went
January 9th, 2009, 02:26 PM
Ok so here, what is your solution then? You can't negotiate, you can't kill them, and they won't hesitate to kill you.

I'd love to see your answer

My answer for this concrete period of war? My answer is that the main problems can be solved by
a) Allowing food, medicines and school instruments into Gaza. Torturing innocent people will only make then angrier.
b) Removing Hamas. Killing all the people in Gaza won't stop them, making the population realize they aren't getting anything with them will.
c) Taking the Israelis out from the Palestinian territories the UN has declared.
d) Talking. If you give up here, there is no hope for anyone.

There is always going to innocent lives taken in war, but Israel would never deliberately attack Innocent people.

Unless, of course, they are trying to hide in a school directed by the UN. Or work for the UNRWA.

When you have the guilty ones standing in a crowd of 100 innocents, and you know the guilty one has the potential to take out millions of innocents, what's the logical choice?

Do your best to get the 100 innocent people away? One single innocent live lost is a crime against humanity.

Virtual Chatot
January 9th, 2009, 02:33 PM
My answer for this concrete period of war? My answer is that the main problems can be solved by
a) Allowing food, medicines and school instruments into Gaza. Torturing innocent people will only make then angrier.
b) Removing Hamas. Killing all the people in Gaza won't stop them, making the population realize they aren't getting anything with them will.
c) Taking the Israelis out from the Palestinian territories the UN has declared.
d) Talking. If you give up here, there is no hope for anyone.
a) I can agree with you on that
b) You make it sound so easy. How are you to tell the difference between an innocent person and a member of Hamas?
c) Israel had no troops in Gaza untill this event happened, they all pulled out in 2005
d) Talking? Israel allowed Terrorists to shoot rockets into its borders for a few years now, and so I think they have the right to retaliate.

Unless, of course, they are trying to hide in a school directed by the UN. Or work for the UNRWA.
Source?


Do your best to get the 100 innocent people away? One single innocent live lost is a crime against humanity....and in a real life situation...how quickly can you get one hundred people to move their tails out of the way so you can take out one person, who has the opportunity to escape?
Your arguments are all best case scenarios

Elite Champion
January 9th, 2009, 02:35 PM
why on earth do you get loonies that kill children and famalies for nothing.

personely the shoe that was flung has been flung, the bomb that was dropped has been droppped, the KIDS that have been slautered have been slatered

THESE PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS

OVER LAND


we are all so lucky.

Virtual Chatot
January 9th, 2009, 02:37 PM
why on earth do you get loonies that kill children and famalies for nothing.
personely the shoe that was flung has been flung, the bomb that was dropped has been droppped, the KIDS that have been slautered have been slatered
THESE PEOPLE ARE ANIMALS
OVER LAND
we are all so lucky.Its obvious to me that you have no sense of nationalism, and defending what is yours -_-'

Elite Champion
January 9th, 2009, 02:39 PM
My country have defended enough.

Ive fought
, gangs live on my street every street

but this is nothing compared to what these children go through

they deserve a ;ife

i understand these reasons but show a little freedom.

mulch_ar
January 9th, 2009, 05:55 PM
I agree with you. Think about the future generation of Palestine. It could be bad cause they see blood and dead bodies everywhere. Do you want to live like that?

Amachi
January 9th, 2009, 06:10 PM
The Middle East is like a powder keg. There is always a reason for war there. Sometimes Israel will be responsible and other times, another country will start it. But if you go to the roots of Israel's formation, you will see whose fault it is. Israel was given one territory in Palestine in 1947. Over the years, other countries attacked it in opposition to the stupid decision to place Jews in a Muslim-controlled Middle East. Israel also wanted more territory in Palestine, invading all but two of the territories of Palestine. They just want an excuse to flush out the remaining territories. This is a perfect excuse for it.

Being a Muslim, I don't want any war at all. It is something us Muslims hate and don't want. But if our brothers are being killed, we have to do something. Not by attacking innocent people in other countries not involved in the war, rather, we should send aid to Palestine in the form of food. We should launch protests and try to convince everyone to help the innocent.

"given"? No, they initially bought land off the Palestinians.

Liquid Shadow
January 9th, 2009, 07:14 PM
Let me brush you up on a little history lesson. During the British Mandate of 1948, Britain took it upon itself to carve up the collapsed Ottoman Empire into countries. Out of all the Ottoman Empire, a fraction of one percent was given to the Jews in order to make their own country in the Balfour Declaration. I'll repeat, a fraction of one percent.

Ok so here, what is your solution then? You can't negotiate, you can't kill them, and they won't hesitate to kill you.

I'd love to see your answer

This is not a simple game of Chess my friend, Islamic Radicals are firing rockets into Israel unprevoked. Islamic Radicals have declared a holy war against Israel and all of its allies.
Another History Lesson, It is a historical fact ( Roman Records Show ) that there was a Jewish rebellion against the Roman Empire in Israel in 33 A.D. Before that, there is also archeological evidence to suggest that the Jewish nation and religion had been living there in Pre-Grecian Empire Times. While, Islam started in the 7th Century A.D.


There is always going to innocent lives taken in war, but Israel would never deliberately attack Innocent people. When you have the guilty ones standing in a crowd of 100 innocents, and you know the guilty one has the potential to take out millions of innocents, what's the logical choice?

Oh Really?






I think the quotes speak for themselves.

Ok, so you're saying the quotes speak for themselves. Why don't you try reading more about our Prophet and try looking at the Ayah's before those. Yea, if u single out an ayah and then post it here, it does look like we love war. Well, let me tell you something.

1. Committing suicide in our Relegion for ANY cause, even if those Islamic Radicals say "It's for God", is against our Relegion. According to Islam, you commit suicide, you go straight to hell.

2. The Muslims lived with peace with the Jews and Christians in Spain, and all the other countries they conquored. It wasn't until the Spanish people regained control of spain that they started slaughtering Muslims and Jews.

3. Muslims do not like war. Muslims only go to war if there's a threat against them. Islam tells Muslims to always be moderate about what you do, not too much or not too little. Only kill people in war if they threatened you first.

Ok, now that that's done, let me say something about Gaza.

Before Hamas started firing missles at Israel, what happened? Israel allowed the Palistinians to choose a group of people that will have at least some authority in the government and to govern over them.They had to choose this group democratically. They chose Hamas. What happened next? Israel puts a trade embargo on a densley populated strip of land that was already in poverty. The trade embargo made it even harder to get food and Medical aid. So, what are they going to do? Just sit down and do nothing about them being starved to death? No. Hamas fired missles at Israel. Now, let's see how much of a "threat" these missles are.
Amount of people killed in Israel because of Hamas missles: less than 10
Amount of people killed in Gaza because of Israeli missles: over 700, less than 5 of them Hamas officials, and most of them children. On top of that, they're not getting food or medical aid because of the embargo.

Ok, so, I still do agree about the fact that Israel has the right to defend itself. HOWEVER, if Israel puts a trade embargo on a densley populated strip of land in poverty, they should expect retaliation.

Finally, I would like to state that I'm an American-Muslim that does not lover war and wants this stupid war and occupation to end.

Virtual Chatot
January 9th, 2009, 07:34 PM
Ok, so you're saying the quotes speak for themselves. Why don't you try reading more about our Prophet and try looking at the Ayah's before those. Yea, if u single out an ayah and then post it here, it does look like we love war. Well, let me tell you something.

1. Committing suicide in our Relegion for ANY cause, even if those Islamic Radicals say "It's for God", is against our Relegion. According to Islam, you commit suicide, you go straight to hell.

2. The Muslims lived with peace with the Jews and Christians in Spain, and all the other countries they conquored. It wasn't until the Spanish people regained control of spain that they started slaughtering Muslims and Jews.

3. Muslims do not like war. Muslims only go to war if there's a threat against them. Islam tells Muslims to always be moderate about what you do, not too much or not too little. Only kill people in war if they threatened you first.But then you must see the obvious contradiction then? I've studied alot into the Islamic religion, and I must say there are alot of them such as that.

"Created man, out of a (mere) clot of congealed blood," ( Surah 96:2)
"But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" (19:67, Yusuf Ali). Also, 52:35)
"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was," (Surah 3:59)

Now I'm not trying to attack Islam here, but I'm merely showing how you really can't defend Hamas, as they are doing what the Koran is telling them.

I have a theory that the extremist groups are doing what was the Roman Catholic church did during the Middle Ages. When the majority of the people were illiterate, so the church got away with telling the public what was said in the Bible, even though it wasn't in there. I believe the extremists are telling people what is not in the Koran, and also purposely misinterpreting texts to help encourage bloodshed.

Getting back to your original post NeoNemesis, here are my responses.
1.The Koran also states that Martyrs are taken to paradise. The suicide bombers believe that they are dying as Martyrs, so in their sense they are not defying the law of the Koran.
2. True, but the Roman Catholic Spanish were also hostile to groups other than Jews and Muslims, so you really can't single out the two groups.
3. From my studies of the Koran, I can agree with you that most texts command you to solve disputes peacefully, but the extremists justify their Jihad in the sense that they feel threatened that not everyone around them is Muslim, and so they retaliate, and claim in many videos that the Jihad will not cease untill the whole world is Muslim, to usher in Muhammad's return.

Liquid Shadow
January 9th, 2009, 07:52 PM
But then you must see the obvious contradiction then? I've studied alot into the Islamic religion, and I must say there are alot of them such as that.





Now I'm not trying to attack Islam here, but I'm merely showing how you really can't defend Hamas, as they are doing what the Koran is telling them.

I have a theory that the extremist groups are doing what was the Roman Catholic church did during the Middle Ages. When the majority of the people were illiterate, so the church got away with telling the public what was said in the Bible, even though it wasn't in there. I believe the extremists are telling people what is not in the Koran, and also purposely misinterpreting texts to help encourage bloodshed.

Getting back to your original post NeoNemesis, here are my responses.
1.The Koran also states that Martyrs are taken to paradise. The suicide bombers believe that they are dying as Martyrs, so in their sense they are not defying the law of the Koran.
2. True, but the Roman Catholic Spanish were also hostile to groups other than Jews and Muslims, so you really can't single out the two groups.
3. From my studies of the Koran, I can agree with you that most texts command you to solve disputes peacefully, but the extremists justify their Jihad in the sense that they feel threatened that not everyone around them is Muslim, and so they retaliate, and claim in many videos that the Jihad will not cease untill the whole world is Muslim, to usher in Muhammad's return.

Yeah, well you're right about most of the things. Martyrs do go to heaven if they die for the sake of God. HOWEVER, committing suicide "for the sake of God" or "Jihad" as Islamic Extremists call it, is completely wrong. Die in war for the sake of god, yeah, but you don't go killing yourself "in the sake of God". Which is why the extremists are wrong.

Oh, and on your third statement you said on MUHAMMAD'S return. Muhammad has died on Earth and is not to return to Earth (according to Islam). It is Jesus that will return. According to Islam, Jesus never died. In Islam, we believe that God raised Jesus up to the heavens, and someone else died in his place. Jesus is the one that is to return. Finally, I'd like to say that forcing someone to become a Muslim is against our Religion too. Which is also why the extremists are wrong once again. They think if the whole world is not Muslim, than they should keep killing people until the world becomes Muslim (As you stated in your previous post). Muhammad's duty was to inform people about Islam and help spread it, but if he told someone the message of Islam and they didn't accept it, he left them to themselves and didn't force them.

Oh, and I know you're not trying to target Islam.

Virtual Chatot
January 10th, 2009, 06:52 AM
Oh, and on your third statement you said on MUHAMMAD'S return. Muhammad has died on Earth and is not to return to Earth (according to Islam). It is Jesus that will return. According to Islam, Jesus never died. In Islam, we believe that God raised Jesus up to the heavens, and someone else died in his place. Jesus is the one that is to return.
I'm sorry, I misspoke in my post :)

I can pretty much sum up why the Muslim Extremists are wrong in this post, as far as murdering Jews and Christians.
"Verily, they who believe, and the Jews, and the Sabeites, and the Christians-whoever of them believeth in God and in the last day, and doth what is right, on them shall come no fear, neither shall they be put to grief" Quraan 5:73Basically, the Koran is saying that all the Jews and all the Christians will enter paradise because they have still worshiped God, not necessarily in the right manner, but Allah will have mercy on them an let them in.

Even if I'm reading this quote wrong, all peoples will enter Heaven eventually when Allah's anger is quenched, so there's nothing for people to really fear as far as a short time in Hell as long as you're a moral person.

Route 18
January 10th, 2009, 01:16 PM
In the end, I think this is a big mess. War is horrible. Many politicians just don't want to sit down and negotiate, because they are very greedy and only want money. In this war, it may not all be about money, but who knows why Israel is trying to destroy Palestine? Could it be for land? I wouldn't know.

Oh, and Macintosh, not everyone will enter Heaven. There are idol-worshippers. They don't even believe in God. But if they do start to believe in God without partners, then hings will turn out for the better. In the end though, it is Allah's decision on who enters Paradise.

And about your quotes from the Qur'an, they were directed at the idol worshippers. Do Christians worship a block of wood? I don't think so. These idol-worshippers drove the Muslims out of their homes, and Allah wanted the Muslims to fight back after these idolaters stole possessions and sold them in Syria. These verses were not directed at Christians or Jews.

And about your quote from the Qur'an on 5:73, it does not give the Christians forgiveness. It says this:
They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.


Allah is giving the Christians mercy now? And if you start saying that the Christan King of Ethiopia helped us, he was a kind man. Too bad we can't say the same thing for the Crusaders. They invaded Jerusalem, whose inhabitants were Muslim, and killed around 50,000 people. Now, can we Muslims match all those deaths? I don't think so. We wouldn't want to anyway. I'm not attacking the Christians, but you did misquote the Qur'an. Was this done deliberately? Or was it simple human error?

Virtual Chatot
January 10th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Allah is giving the Christians mercy now? And if you start saying that the Christan King of Ethiopia helped us, he was a kind man. Too bad we can't say the same thing for the Crusaders. They invaded Jerusalem, whose inhabitants were Muslim, and killed around 50,000 people. Now, can we Muslims match all those deaths? I don't think so. We wouldn't want to anyway. I'm not attacking the Christians, but you did misquote the Qur'an. Was this done deliberately? Or was it simple human error?History tells us that the Crusaders not only killed Muslims, but also Jews as well.

From your response, I would like to see where the Koran clearly states that the texts were directed towards Idol Worshippers.

I used the wrong reference, here is a direct translation from Arabic.

That those who believed and those who guided ( or Jews ), and the converts ( or sabians ), and the Christians who believed with God and the Day the Last/Resurrection Day, and made/worked correct/righteous deeds, so no fear on them, and nor they be sad/grieving. Koran 5:69

and here, in the Asad translation into English:
for, verily, those who have attained to faith ( Muslims ), as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. Koran 5:69

Its very obvious to me that there is also another contradiction.

But we're falling off of the topic, which calls to mind that we might as well create a thread dedicated to a lighthearted discussion such as this.

In short, should Israel allow humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip? Of course they should.
Can a peaceful resolution be drawn up against the extremist groups? No, tragically they won't stop their Jihad untill Israel is off the map and the entire world is converted to Islam.
Should Israel occupy the Gaza Strip? No, but then it has the right to defend itself against military attacks.

Netto Azure
January 10th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Well my only religious question on this is what happens to the "Pagan Worshipers" such as the Pre-Columbian Civilizations and Asian religions?
Was it there fault that they were brought up in such a society? Will they live up or down?

Anyways it's a good thing that this matter is settled (My misinterpretation of Macintosh's post) and we can agree that the Muslim extremists are wrong. And that most Muslims do not believe in the radical beliefs that has pervaded most Americans thinking of how Muslims live. But seriously, I agree that if you cut out basic supplies anywhere, it will only breed radical beliefs and cause innocent people to suffer.

So we need a truce here. =/

Amachi
January 10th, 2009, 06:02 PM
Guys, we're getting a bit side tracked here, so it's best that we keep this topic on discussing the happenings in the Gaza Strip.

Liquid Shadow
January 10th, 2009, 09:32 PM
Well here's my main argument.

After the Palestinians democratically chose leaders as they were allowed to (HAMAS), Israel put an embargo on Gaza to prevent smuggling of "weapons" because they feel "threatened" by Hamas. Well I beleive this embargo caused Hamas and other Palestinians to fight back... or at least try to! The excuse of "missiles" being sent out from Hamas into Israel "being a threat" is all BS if you ask me. The missiles from Hamas barely killed five Israelis and damaged almost nothing in Israel. Now, Israel said "it has the right to defend itself" which is true... But defending yourself against what? Pathetic missiles coming from a place where poverty is everywhere? And on top of that they placed an embargo on Gaza which was already in poverty from before? OF COURSE they are going to retaliate. The embargo is barely allowing any aid into Gaza too.

Finally, some statistics:
Amount of people killed in Israel by Hamas's "missiles" and "weapons": Less than ten.

Amount of people killed in Gaza by Israeli Missiles and weapons: over 700, the majority of them being children, and less than five of them being Hamas leaders.

Seriously, I really don't get why Israel is invading Gaza. Take off the embargo, see how Hamas acts. If they still continue to fire missiles and if the missiles actually start doing some damage, then yea attack back. But going on a full blown war against Hamas because of a few pathetic missiles?

Cascade'A Stupidity
January 10th, 2009, 11:40 PM
Being jewish and all, I'm pretty p'ed, but it's just so obvious.

Pallistinians can't take it when people give it back to them. -.-

Netto Azure
January 11th, 2009, 05:13 PM
Guys, we're getting a bit side tracked here, so it's best that we keep this topic on discussing the happenings in the Gaza Strip.

Sorry for getting off-topic but the thing is...a lot of these issues are interconnected. =/
No offense...I don't like it too, but religion is too much ingrained in this crisis. T_T

Route 18
January 11th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Being jewish and all, I'm pretty p'ed, but it's just so obvious.

Pallistinians can't take it when people give it back to them. -.-

Like NeoNemesis said, less than 10 people were killed by Palestinian rockets, and those rockets were launched in retaliation to the trade embargo held by Israel. So Palestinians are only fighting back to get some rights.

I think religion is ingrained in this. It seems that everyone thinks HAMAS is doing textbook Islam. I'm not an expert in this war, but what I do know is that this war is wrong, and that Israel should stop the murder of innocent people. Over 700 Palestinians were killed in this war.

Well my only religious question on this is what happens to the "Pagan Worshipers" such as the Pre-Columbian Civilizations and Asian religions?
Was it there fault that they were brought up in such a society? Will they live up or down?


If Islam didn't reach a civilisation, the people of that civilisation are exempt from any punishments in hell.

And Macintosh, the Qur'anic quotes refer to the Christians and Jews that followed their book to the letter without any changes to them. The Bible and Torah have had significant changes made to them, so how could the Christians and Jews go to Paradise now if their books are in deep error? They have some truth in them, but for the most part, the Bible and Torah have been changed and altered significantly.

Amachi
January 11th, 2009, 09:45 PM
Sorry for getting off-topic but the thing is...a lot of these issues are interconnected. =/
No offense...I don't like it too, but religion is too much ingrained in this crisis. T_T
You guys began to talk about the Crusades, which has got to do with Christianity and really has nothing to do in the Israel/Palestine conflict.
Like NeoNemesis said, less than 10 people were killed by Palestinian rockets, and those rockets were launched in retaliation to the trade embargo held by Israel. So Palestinians are only fighting back to get some rights.

I think religion is ingrained in this. It seems that everyone thinks HAMAS is doing textbook Islam. I'm not an expert in this war, but what I do know is that this war is wrong, and that Israel should stop the murder of innocent people. Over 700 Palestinians were killed in this war.
These people voted for Hamas. They support them, their ideals and technically this war. It is unfortunate that so much life has been lost but it might have just been a better idea to not vote for the guys who want to start fighting.

Stop talking about religion so much guys, I think you're bringing this more into the discussion than required, especially since you're discussing Christianity and that has barely got anything to do with this conflict.

Netto Azure
January 12th, 2009, 12:50 PM
You guys began to talk about the Crusades, which has got to do with Christianity and really has nothing to do in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

What Crusades? Who was talking about that? Anyways Sorry 'bout that then. But this has gone on for too long (60 years on and off fighting) and civilians are in the middle.

Anyways, Human Rights Watch is now saying Israel is using incendiary weapons such as white phosphorus...That's way too much to be frank =/ We're way past "proportionality" now.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7823078.stm

Well Israel is now saying there almost finish with their "objectives"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7822786.stm

But what are they going to do now. Stay there indefinitely?
Will Gaza Attack Help or Hurt Israel? (Newsweek)
(http://www.newsweek.com/id/177015)

Long-term this doesn't solve anything, it would be more productive to show good-will to Gaza's people by opening humanitarian aid which should help Israel's image to the Arab world and open peace process. This "campaign" has only worsened Israel's image and Arab-Israeli relations. =/

Now Israel's army is nearing Urban population centers such as Gaza city and street infantry fighting has begun...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7824288.stm

Netto Azure
January 14th, 2009, 12:41 PM
More than 1000 Killed in Gaza...:(
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828884.stm

And some "guerrillas" had launched rocket attacks from Lebanon for the 2nd time, threatening a "2nd" front while Israel is distracted.

Route 18
January 14th, 2009, 01:45 PM
This war should stop. The fighting on both sides should stop. Hamas should stop their missiles, Israel should stop their massacres and lift their trade embargo and everyone should resolve their problems diplomatically. They aren't waging a war on a powerful country like Egypt. They're only waging war on a small strip of land that is finding it hard to defend itself.

Furthermore, a news report has mentioned the use of phosphorous against civilian populations. All chemical weapons, in my view, should be banned. Otherwise, governments will find loopholes and begin using them. Chemical weapons used against civilians is even more horrifying. This is no longer a war. This is a massacre. Israel is not attacking government strongholds, rather, it is attacking and killing civilians. The same goes for Hamas.

Kazukii
January 14th, 2009, 01:47 PM
The whole things is just horrible. I really do wish there was world peace.

Route 18
January 15th, 2009, 08:55 PM
I just received a bunch of emails about the war in Palestine. They are very disturbing, and I cannot believe how some people here are saying that Gaza deserved what it got from Israel. It definitely did not. The death toll has risen to over 1000 people, and Israel still won't allow aid into the war-torn Gaza Strip. It is just horrible what Israel is doing. This is no longer a debate of politics. This is human decency and mercy we need to discuss! Does Israel really want to kill so many people over politics? What are humans coming to? We are now living in a world of extremes, and I want it to stop right now. There's one end where conservationist groups like PETA are trying to rename fish 'sea kittens', and there's the other end where people want to kill over 1000 civilians over Nationalism.

We live in such a crazy and twisted world. I just wish this horror would end. There is just too much loss of life to debate over politics now. Stop taking sides, people! Just end this horrible war already...

Netto Azure
January 16th, 2009, 11:02 AM
US and Israel sign deal on Gaza.
The US and Israel have signed a deal to halt the smuggling of arms into Gaza, in what Israel's foreign minister said was an important step towards peace.

Hay...This has been going on for almost a month now, Just declare a truce. Please. :(

I guess that's a yes: "Israel set for ceasefire vote" (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834255.stm)

Netto Azure
January 17th, 2009, 02:07 PM
FINALLY!!! Some form of "peace"

Israel declares ceasefire in Gaza (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7835794.stm)

Israel is to halt its three-week military offensive against Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said.

Route 18
January 17th, 2009, 02:14 PM
They're going to start again, just watch.

Cascade'A Stupidity
January 17th, 2009, 02:27 PM
What all you people don't realize, is this isn't just a pop up thing, this has been going on for YEARS. Israel's only just starting to react.

But it's also pretty much Gaza's fault for electing a bunch of arabs who just want to blow things up. They should just get some sence, GET RID OF THEM. All they're doing is having most of the population of the Gaza Strip killed.

Route 18
January 17th, 2009, 02:54 PM
What all you people don't realize, is this isn't just a pop up thing, this has been going on for YEARS. Israel's only just starting to react.

But it's also pretty much Gaza's fault for electing a bunch of arabs who just want to blow things up. They should just get some sence, GET RID OF THEM. All they're doing is having most of the population of the Gaza Strip killed.

Hamas isn't some crazy murderous party. They just want Israel to stop with the murder and the blockade. Why is everyone under the impression that the people of Gaza want war? All they want is for someone to help them. They don't want to give in to Israel, the country that has tortured them for years and years. They want Israel out so that there may be peace in Palestine. What crazy people would crave death and destruction of their homeland? Do you really think that Gaza deserved the death of 1200 of their people? Do you think it was fair that Israel responded in the way that it did because of a few rocket attacks that killed just 13 people? Tell me if that is really fair and that Gaza deserved it.

matt561
January 17th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Wait a second... hasent this war been going on since 1929 when Great britain declared israel an Independant state

In my opinion, the only way this is really going to be sortedout is when the elders stop teaching thier kids that the person behind the wall is satan and must be stopped and vice versa but that wont be for a long looong time

Route 18
January 17th, 2009, 03:19 PM
Wait a second... hasent this war been going on since 1929 when Great britain declared israel an Independant state

In my opinion, the only way this is really going to be sortedout is when the elders stop teaching thier kids that the person behind the wall is satan and must be stopped and vice versa but that wont be for a long looong time

Israel was declared an Independent state in 1947, not 1929. And if it isn't in 1947, it was definitely not in 1929. Jews had no reason to move out of their lands until the Holocaust. They decided to move somewhere where they could just be themselves without some crazy man trying to exterminate them. Smart place they picked, in a sea of Arabs.

HEAT WAVE
January 17th, 2009, 03:45 PM
This conflict occured for years, and most likelt continue to occur until other countries with higher power steps into the conflict and ends it, but sadly I'm afraid that will not occur either.

evilishan
January 17th, 2009, 06:12 PM
Uh, I just don't believe in war in general.
On 14 Jan the death toll was 1017 Gaza Strip civilians, 40% children and women.
Hamas does not represent he Palestinians, From what it looks like Israel is trying to eliminate Palestine rather than Hamas. Edited

404 innocent children and women. Shouldn't this be classified as terrorism?
Hamas is using children as human shields, that's disgusting, what's worse is that Israeli soldiers are actually firing at them.
I wish I could teleport Israeli forces and Hamas to another planet where they fight all they wanted without any disturbance to civilians.

Amachi
January 17th, 2009, 06:24 PM
Hamas does not represent he Palestinians
Who voted for Hamas then? Israel?

Netto Azure
January 17th, 2009, 06:27 PM
Well as I said earlier Hamas was voted in the Gaza Strip while Fatah controls the West Bank. 2 seperate governments. =/

Amachi
January 17th, 2009, 06:28 PM
No you don't get what I meant. evilishan was claiming that Hamas does not represent the Palestinian people [in Gaza], which is absurd because they voted for them.

Netto Azure
January 17th, 2009, 08:30 PM
Oh yeah, Hamas was voted into Gaza. But Israel says that it wasn't a free election. But I'm not sure. =/

Route 18
January 18th, 2009, 12:23 AM
If Israel wasn't a horrible and mean occupier, then Hamas wouldn't try to blow their heads off. So I think Israel should try to assist the Palestinians and leave them free to do what they want (other than destroy Israel). If Israel stopped their blockade, Hamas wouldn't have launched their rockets. If Hamas didn't threaten Israel, Israel wouldn't have blockaded Gaza. In the end, though, we need to look at what happened at the beginning.

The Jews had taken a severe beating from Hitler and the Nazis. They wanted a place to liv peacefully, where no one like Hitler would order their deaths. The only way to do this was to create their own state. So the Zionist movement from way back in 1918 came back again and began to protest and fight for their land in Palestine. They had to chose a place where the majority of the people hated Jews, didn't they? The day after the formation of the State of Israel, major Arab powers attacked Israel including Egypt and Syria. Israel defeated them. Later on, Israel went on to occupy the rest of Palestine and some of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel didn't exactly start these wars, but it did bring a cause for them. Its existence was a cause for concern amongst the Arabs there. Jews in the Middle East? No way!

There were Jews living in Palestine and the Middle East already, but only in small minorites. These minorities were tolerated. They thought a few Jews could do no harm, but an entire state? NO!

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I believe about the root of the conflict.

Cascade'A Stupidity
January 18th, 2009, 12:33 AM
If Israel wasn't a horrible and mean occupier, then Hamas wouldn't try to blow their heads off. So I think Israel should try to assist the Palestinians and leave them free to do what they want (other than destroy Israel). If Israel stopped their blockade, Hamas wouldn't have launched their rockets. If Hamas didn't threaten Israel, Israel wouldn't have blockaded Gaza. In the end, though, we need to look at what happened at the beginning.

The Jews had taken a severe beating from Hitler and the Nazis. They wanted a place to liv peacefully, where no one like Hitler would order their deaths. The only way to do this was to create their own state. So the Zionist movement from way back in 1918 came back again and began to protest and fight for their land in Palestine. They had to chose a place where the majority of the people hated Jews, didn't they? The day after the formation of the State of Israel, major Arab powers attacked Israel including Egypt and Syria. Israel defeated them. Later on, Israel went on to occupy the rest of Palestine and some of Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel didn't exactly start these wars, but it did bring a cause for them. Its existence was a cause for concern amongst the Arabs there. Jews in the Middle East? No way!

There were Jews living in Palestine and the Middle East already, but only in small minorites. These minorities were tolerated. They thought a few Jews could do no harm, but an entire state? NO!

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I believe about the root of the conflict.


You don't understand.

Jews didn't CHOOSE anything, they were GIVEN Israel.

Besides, what's wrong with being Jewish these days? It's not like we round the other religions up and start shelling it.

Antisemitism is suckish. UBER suckish, bottom line.

Went
January 18th, 2009, 01:55 AM
I don't think many people support anisemitism these days. We don't simply support Israel killing a thousand people. The elections were Hamas won were looked upon by Israel, and the own Sharon was the one who allowed Hamas to take part in them, so I don't know how "unrepresentative" they are, since the difference of votes beween them and the other party was bigger than the one between Bush and Al Gore.

About calling the innocents "human shield", well, since Gaza is probably the most overpopulated country in the world, it's not that hard to hide between innocents. But it's not like they kidnap their families to stay with them against their own will, isn't it? Where can they go, if they can go out of the strip since Israel won't allow them to and it's completely full of buildings?

And finally: Israel accepted a ceasefire, and yet they threw some bombs over Gaza in the last hours. nice.

Route 18
January 18th, 2009, 02:38 AM
You don't understand.

Jews didn't CHOOSE anything, they were GIVEN Israel.

Besides, what's wrong with being Jewish these days? It's not like we round the other religions up and start shelling it.

Antisemitism is suckish. UBER suckish, bottom line.

They were not GIVEN Israel! Unless you are talking about Moses and that escape to the Holy Land thing. Yeah, the Jews left ages ago. They could've stayed, but NO! OK, so some Jews remained, but in the end, the Arabs annexed the deserted lands of Palestine. Now, the Jews come back after thousands of years demanding their land back! Thousands of years! Please! And they couldn't stick with what they were given. They took over the rest of Palestine anyway. The British were initially against it, but that Barfour guy said someting about handing the Jews Palestine. The British forgot about it, so the Jews were sure to remind them after World War II.

Anyway, I'm not arguing against Israel's right to exist. I'm just saying it was a stupid place to choose, in a sea of anti-Semitics. Smart.

Amachi
January 18th, 2009, 02:41 AM
They were not GIVEN Israel! Unless you are talking about Moses and that escape to the Holy Land thing. Yeah, the Jews left ages ago. They could've stayed, but NO! OK, so some Jews remained, but in the end, the Arabs annexed the deserted lands of Palestine. Now, the Jews come back after thousands of years demanding their land back! Thousands of years! Please! And they couldn't stick with what they were given. They took over the rest of Palestine anyway. The British were initially against it, but that Barfour guy said someting about handing the Jews Palestine. The British forgot about it, so the Jews were sure to remind them after World War II.

Anyway, I'm not arguing against Israel's right to exist. I'm just saying it was a stupid place to choose, in a sea of anti-Semitics. Smart.

Um, they initially bought land from the residents. Yes, a lot of land has been taken by force but a lot was also purchased from the people living there.

And then they wanted it back after they spent all their money.

Route 18
January 18th, 2009, 02:51 AM
Um, they initially bought land from the residents. Yes, a lot of land has been taken by force but a lot was also purchased from the people living there.

And then they wanted it back after they spent all their money.

Initially, they bought a bit of land. Then they invaded Syria and Egypt. And the rest of Palestine. I mean, how much land was actually owned by the residents?

The Post Count
January 18th, 2009, 06:03 AM
Israel. ftw.

IMO, its stupid of the UN to think everything can be solved with peace. There are some things money can buy, for everything else, theres mastercard wars.

Amachi
January 18th, 2009, 07:56 AM
Initially, they bought a bit of land. Then they invaded Syria and Egypt. And the rest of Palestine. I mean, how much land was actually owned by the residents?

Right, because they totally didn't attack them when they declared independence. I mean, it's not as if they didn't want the Jewish people there, right?

And they still buy land to this day.

An-chan
January 18th, 2009, 08:59 AM
IMO, its stupid of the UN to think everything can be solved with peace. There are some things money can buy, for everything else, theres wars.

Right, so there's nothing wrong with killing a bunch of innocent people if you want to have something you can't buy. Why don't we all start shooting our neighbours to get their lands? ^-^

War is never a solution. On top of all the dead, innocent Palestinians, there are the dead, innocent Israeli people. Moreover, there are a bunch of killed soldiers who, despite their profession, are still human and would most probably have lived if it wasn't for the war. People are killed there on daily basis. How can a process like that be called a "solution"?

Um, they initially bought land from the residents. Yes, a lot of land has been taken by force but a lot was also purchased from the people living there.

And then they wanted it back after they spent all their money.

A lot of land was purcased from Indians when USA was founded, and from the Indigenous Australians when Australia was founded. The fact that they paid something for the land doesn't make it any more justified to kick people out of their homes and tell them to go and live somewhere else. In cases like that, it doesn't matter much whether they want to sell the land or not. If the land of Israel was legally aquired, I wonder why the surrounding countries were mad enough to actually declare war against the newly founded state?

Not that I deny Israel's right to excist. Jews have seen some pretty hard times and it's about time they get a place for themselves to live. However, I believe that Palestinians should also have the right to have their own state. Both of those nations should be able to exist side by side, without the other disturbing the other, without anyone shooting home-made missiles at anyone or bulldozing anyone's homes.

Israeli people have the right to defend their homes, but they're going a bit too far somethimes. For example, in 1980's when they promised to UN they'd defend the Palestinian refugee camps, but instead let a group of people in to murder and rape the refugees. They did it on purpose, too. I don't think the people of Israel knew about that back then, though. Also, the Israeli army is making things harder for all kinds of humanitarian workers in Gaza, and they're doing it at least partially on purpose. They've blown up refugee centers and hospitals and stopped the helpers from getting into certain areas.
Things like that shouldn't be allowed even in war.

Route 18
January 18th, 2009, 01:46 PM
Right, because they totally didn't attack them when they declared independence. I mean, it's not as if they didn't want the Jewish people there, right?

And they still buy land to this day.

Oh, that...

But still, the Jews were not very smart choosing to live in Palestine. Obviously, the countries around them hated Jews, and I think Jews are smart enough to know this. They could've picked any other country in the world, but they picked Palestine. So stupid.

Netto Azure
January 19th, 2009, 11:17 AM
Well my question is then can you propose a better place for the Jewish People than Israel/Palestine? I read about the Barfour Declaration and it's a bunch of contradictions from the British. It said setting up Palestine for the Jewish People, but at the same time it said "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing Non-Jewish communities in Palestine."

Hay 60 years of unresolved contradictions...

Scale of Gaza destruction emerges (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7836869.stm)

The full scale of devastation in Gaza following Israel's three-week offensive is becoming clear, after both Israel and Hamas declared ceasefires.
UN official John Ging said half a million people had been without water since the conflict began, and huge numbers of people were without power.
Four thousand homes are ruined and tens of thousands of people are homeless.

evilishan
January 19th, 2009, 10:28 PM
It pleases me to see there is a ceasefire between these two warring nations, I believe that the war will truly stop when they notices similarities they share as humans.
1.They both don't eat pork
and thats about it or maybe Israel/Palestine will win.

The reason for my confusion is because all the news papers say it's the war between Israel and Hamas, rather than Israel and Palestine and made me think that Hamas wasn't the government body of Palestine.

The song made by one of my friends:
The Jews don't eat pork and the Muslims don't each pork,
It's been that way forever,
The Jews don't eat pork and the Muslims don't each pork,
Why not, not each pork together?

♣Gawain♣
January 19th, 2009, 10:37 PM
It pleases me to see there is a ceasefire between these two warring nations, I believe that the war will truly stop when they notices similarities they share as humans.
1.They both don't eat pork
and thats about it or maybe Israel/Palestine will win.

The reason for my confusion is because all the news papers say it's the war between Israel and Hamas, rather than Israel and Palestine and made me think that Hamas wasn't the government body of Palestine.

The song made by one of my friends:
The Jews don't eat pork and the Muslims don't each pork,
It's been that way forever,
The Jews don't eat pork and the Muslims don't each pork,
Why not, not each pork together?

So ends the war for awhile and my suspicions. And that song is funny!

Route 18
January 20th, 2009, 02:29 PM
This war is getting out of hand. That was just a one-week ceasefire to help Gaza rebuild itself. Then Israel is going to start its massacre again. And I'm just amazed at how anyone could support Israel. If Hamas attacked Israel and killed 1000+ Israelis and blockaded Israel, then I would support them. But Israel has committed many war crimes and atrocities. You can't really blindly support Israel even after what it has done to Gaza. It also did the same to the West Bank and Lebanon. And yet you still go on and support the murderer. I'm not Anti-Semitic or anything. I'm just against these pointless wars. Nothing is solved by violence. Violence just causes more problems.

Netto Azure
January 20th, 2009, 03:13 PM
Well, I don't support the conflict that Israel and Hamas started...But Israel deserves the right to exist...

Went
January 21st, 2009, 04:44 AM
The point here is that if Palestine has the right to exist, actually, since Israel keeps bombing Gaza and sending colonists to the West Bank.

Chaostorm
January 21st, 2009, 05:05 AM
Thats Just Confusing. Why Israel Attacked Palestine In Past? and I should say, Palestine has the Right to Exist...

Sebastien Loeb
January 21st, 2009, 05:36 AM
This situation is terrible, now to understand what the true intentions of the government will be Obama, however it is true that it needs to stop Hamas but we cannot keep on reaping innocent victims (as for example his children), the attacks arrive at night while people sleep he is horrible.

Netto Azure
January 21st, 2009, 08:32 AM
The point here is that if Palestine has the right to exist, actually, since Israel keeps bombing Gaza and sending colonists to the West Bank.

Well of course I support a Palestinian homeland too. What I meant was that many Arab radicals are using such rhetoric that keeps on saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist. And this recent conflict has just given them more cannon fodder to attack and silence Arab Moderates that were on the verge of becoming mainstream. =/

Route 18
January 23rd, 2009, 02:50 AM
That's it, I can't handle it anymore. I just can't take the bloodshed anymore. How could people be so cold-blooded to support Israel? Hamas rockets killed only 13 people, 10 of whom were Israeli officials, but the Israeli offensive caused the death of 1281 people, of whom 43 were Hamas officials. Does Israel have the right to do so? No, it doesn't! People are saying that Israel is defending itself, but from what?? A few rockets? Please! I can't take that excuse! They responded immorally and horrifiyingly to measly rockets, and people are saying that it was justified??? Well you people are cold-blooded political people who think the world runs with politics. It doesn't. It runs with moral rules. Imagin that you were in the place of those poor Gazans. I don't think they voted to have their country demolished. They wanted to stop that. And some smarty pants here said that they voted for Hamas while they knew it would mean disaster for them. Are you okay?? Who would vote for the destruction of their country and the killing of their people? Would you? Commn sense! It seems that politics dimnishes common sense. When war begins, people should immediately support what's right, and that is the cease of all killing. War only leads to destruction, and only stops when enough people are killed. War doesn't bring any long-lasting benefits, but brings only suffering. Who here said that war is good? Who, tell me? You truly sicken me. I am now taking the side of peace. I hope that Jews and Muslims live together peacefully, and that the wishers of war are under a hundred feet of mud. Who's with me?

Snyser
January 30th, 2009, 04:44 PM
the war is stopped......

Route 18
January 30th, 2009, 10:19 PM
Not for long...
That ceasefire won't hold for much longer...