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Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 10:19 AM
The title asks it all, do you believe in Jesus/God?

For me, No.

Vote and comment now =D

wolf
January 12th, 2009, 10:22 AM
Yesssss, I do, I believe in God since there has to be something that made the universe... What came before God and before that? o_O

Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 10:24 AM
"The Big Bang Theory"
Many non-believers believe it is the Big Bang theory that made us all.

wolf
January 12th, 2009, 10:26 AM
Well, I don't to church, but I still believe him some... Well, you will never know till you die...

Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 10:27 AM
I mean in ways I don't know but No is what I think more of.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 10:28 AM
Yes, definitely, I believe that Jesus will come down from heaven and slay the anti-christ when 2012 comes. That was just brief, if you want to know more, you can just pm me or give me a visitor comment, whatever you want. I'm very into this kinda stuff and won't mind telling whoever wants to know, but lots of you may already know all of that stuff just trying to be helpful ;)

storm393
January 12th, 2009, 10:43 AM
i belive in god and jesus... im a christan :)

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I am a Christian, a Protestant, and a Presbyterian. All just subsets of each other really. A WASP to be short.

Zentek, I don't want to get into a religious row, but could you explain to me about the anti-Christ? I can pm you if you want.

Cheesymitten
January 12th, 2009, 10:50 AM
I think that in R.E they're trying to make you believe in something, however i think that we should at least have a choice i really don't care if songs use the word God but i think that it's offensive for some people when people say "Jesus", i don't really believe in God/Jesus but i don't want to upset my parents...*runs out of breath from lack of comas*

Merzbau
January 12th, 2009, 10:51 AM
Not in the same way anyone else here does, I'm sure.
But in a way, sure.

mystletainn
January 12th, 2009, 10:54 AM
No not really. I used to, but I guess I've grown jaded by a lot of things where I can't really believe in a higher power. I rely on myself and the people around me.

Also, I don't want anyone flaming any other person's belief. Topics of this nature tend to devolve into that.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 10:54 AM
DunderMifflinite, PM is better, pm me and tell me what you want to know. There is so much detail in it and so many beliefs so tell me exactly what you want to know or just tell me as best you can.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 10:56 AM
DunderMifflinite, PM is better, pm me and tell me what you want to know. There is so much detail in it and so many beliefs so tell me exactly what you want to know or just tell me as best you can.

Ok, will do.

I was born into a Christian family and most/all of my friends were too, so I don't really have any other experiences.

Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 10:57 AM
Lots of my friends are christians but I just don't really see any proof of any of this.

processr
January 12th, 2009, 10:58 AM
No. But I also don't think the Big Bang Theory goes all the way to explaining what happened in the beginning. Ergo, I'm an agnostic, in that I believe neither theory is conclusive.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:00 AM
In my opinion, the "big bang theory" doesn't make any sense.

They say it "exploded from a smaller mass," right? So its expanding? But they also say that the universe is infinite. So how can there be a smaller infinity that explodes into an expanding infinity?

FinalFlare
January 12th, 2009, 11:05 AM
I believe that God exists because of the evidence. Three of the most convincing arguments that really solidified my faith in God are the Kalam cosmological argument, the moral argument, and the fine-tuning argument. Theism simply explains the creation of the universe out of nothing, objective moral values, and the constants that make human life possible. Atheism utterly fails at explaining those things.

The Kalam cosmological argument goes as follows:

1.) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.) The universe began to exist.
3.) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The first premise is pretty obvious. Things do not just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. For every effect, there is a cause. This is constantly verified in our experience and never falsified.

The second premise is supported by several lines of evidence. There are two philosophical arguments for the impossibility of an infinite past (which I will not go into in this post for the sake of space). There are also two empirical evidences that the universe began to exist.

Most scientists agree that the universe began to exist a finite time ago, since the universe is expanding and, if you go back in time, will contract back into a singularity in which all matter, space, and time come into existence.

Also, the laws of thermodynamics tell us that in a closed, isolated system (such as our universe), the amount of usable energy is running down. Since the usable energy in our universe has not completely run down into a state of equilibrium, the universe must have begun a finite time ago.

So, since everything that begins to exist has a cause, and the universe began to exist, then the universe must have a cause. Not only that, but since the cause is the cause of all matter, space, and time coming into existence, the cause must be immaterial, nonspatial, and timeless. Furthermore, there are only two types of entities that could be timeless, nonspatial, and immaterial: either abstract objects (such as numbers) or a personal mind. Since abstract objects are causally impotent, the cause must be a personal mind. So, there must have been a transcendent, immaterial, nonspatial, timeless, personal being who brought the universe into existence out of nothing. That cause is most plausibly God.

The moral argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2.) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3.) Therefore, God exists.

Most atheists will agree to premise (1). If there is no God, there is simply no way for there to be an objective standard of morality. Morality is simply left up to personal opinion and culture.

The second premise is the main point, and seems intuitively obvious to most people. Most people would agree that torturing babies is objectively wrong no matter what culture you live in. Most people would agree that burning a widow alive after the death of her husband is objectively wrong regardless of personal opinion. Most people believe that the holocaust was wrong, and would still be wrong even if the Nazis had won WWII and killed or brainwashed everyone who disagreed with them so that it was universally believed that is was right.

So, if you agree that those things are objectively wrong, then you are logically committed to believe that God exists. He is the only way moral values and duties could be objectively grounded. Moral values are grounded in His unchanging nature, and moral duties are derived from His commands, which are necessary expressions of His good and loving nature.

The fine-tuning argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) The fine-tuning of the universe is the result of either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2.) It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3.) Therefore, it is due to design.

There are multiple physical constants that are incredibly fine-tuned (e.g., the electromagnetic interaction, the weak force, strong force, gravitation, the ratio of proton to electron mass, etc.) so that if they were slightly altered just one way or another, life could not exist.

This fine-tuning could not just be by chance. For every one of these constants to just happen to be at the precise quantity at the same time so that life could exist is just ridiculously improbable.

The fine-tuning could not be by physical necessity. It is certainly possible that the different constants could be otherwise. If someone believes the constants are the result of physical necessity, then they have to present a tremendous amount of evidence for that.

So, it must be by design. A design requires a designer. So, I believe that fine-tuning is good evidence that God exists.

All these arguments together provide a compelling case for the existence of God.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 11:06 AM
Haha, the big bang theory. It was supposed to happen again just a few months ago, but then... nothing. I think the big bang thing isn't true. There is lots of beliefs, like well, the big bang, reincarnation, adam and eve, people also worship the Buda and there's also the Haaj, sometimes think the anti-christ is in that thing or maybe even Jesus but I kinda doubt that.

Mooshykris
January 12th, 2009, 11:06 AM
Yes, I believe in both God and Jesus. I am a Christian.


Also, and this is meant as a constructive comment, so please don't take it as a flame.

You don't have to believe in Christianity to believe there is a higher being. Even if the world evolved and started from a big bang, ect, ect, something or someone had to make it happen.

~Mooshykris

Mira
January 12th, 2009, 11:06 AM
The Big Bang theory makes sense, and yet it doesn't.
It just really depends on how you look at it.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:08 AM
I believe that God exists because of the evidence. Three of the most convincing arguments that really solidified my faith in God are the Kalam cosmological argument, the moral argument, and the fine-tuning argument. Theism simply explains the creation of the universe out of nothing, objective moral values, and the constants that make human life possible. Atheism utterly fails at explaining those things.

The Kalam cosmological argument goes as follows:

1.) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.) The universe began to exist.
3.) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The first premise is pretty obvious. Things do not just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. For every effect, there is a cause. This is constantly verified in our experience and never falsified.

The second premise is supported by several lines of evidence. There are two philosophical arguments for the impossibility of an infinite past (which I will not go into in this post for the sake of space). There are also two empirical evidences that the universe began to exist.

Most scientists agree that the universe began to exist a finite time ago, since the universe is expanding and, if you go back in time, will contract back into a singularity in which all matter, space, and time come into existence.

Also, the laws of thermodynamics tell us that in a closed, isolated system (such as our universe), the amount of usable energy is running down. Since the usable energy in our universe has not completely run down into a state of equilibrium, the universe must have begun a finite time ago.

So, since everything that begins to exist has a cause, and the universe began to exist, then the universe must have a cause. Not only that, but since the cause is the cause of all matter, space, and time coming into existence, the cause must be immaterial, nonspatial, and timeless. Furthermore, there are only two types of entities that could be timeless, nonspatial, and immaterial: either abstract objects (such as numbers) or a personal mind. Since abstract objects are causally impotent, the cause must be a personal mind. So, there must have been a transcendent, immaterial, nonspatial, timeless, personal being who brought the universe into existence out of nothing. That cause is most plausibly God.

The moral argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2.) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3.) Therefore, God exists.

Most atheists will agree to premise (1). If there is no God, there is simply no way for there to be an objective standard of morality. Morality is simply left up to personal opinion and culture.

The second premise is the main point, and seems intuitively obvious to most people. Most people would agree that torturing babies is objectively wrong no matter what culture you live in. Most people would agree that burning a widow alive after the death of her husband is objectively wrong regardless of personal opinion. Most people believe that the holocaust was wrong, and would still be wrong even if the Nazis had won WWII and killed or brainwashed everyone who disagreed with them so that it was universally believed that is was right.

So, if you agree that those things are objectively wrong, then you are logically committed to believe that God exists. He is the only way moral values and duties could be objectively grounded. Moral values are grounded in His unchanging nature, and moral duties are derived from His commands, which are necessary expressions of His good and loving nature.

The fine-tuning argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) The fine-tuning of the universe is the result of either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2.) It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3.) Therefore, it is due to design.

There are multiple physical constants that are incredibly fine-tuned (e.g., the electromagnetic interaction, the weak force, strong force, gravitation, the ratio of proton to electron mass, etc.) so that if they were slightly altered just one way or another, life could not exist.

This fine-tuning could not just be by chance. For every one of these constants to just happen to be at the precise quantity at the same time so that life could exist is just ridiculously improbable.

The fine-tuning could not be by physical necessity. It is certainly possible that the different constants could be otherwise. If someone believes the constants are the result of physical necessity, then they have to present a tremendous amount of evidence for that.

So, it must be by design. A design requires a designer. So, I believe that fine-tuning is good evidence that God exists.

All these arguments together provide a compelling case for the existence of God.

Wow. Very complete. I've never heard a rational argument like that before for God. But that doesn't mean its God, it could be any god(in other's minds) so more arguments would be needed.

Goðafoss
January 12th, 2009, 11:14 AM
Nope, don't believe in a God.
I do believe that there's at least SOMETHING when we die, but what? I dunno.

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 11:17 AM
So.. why are you using Jesus/God? Believe it or not, there are more options than just the -christian- god, you are giving an awfully narrow option.

I do not believe in the christian god. I do not believe in any organized religion. I believe there is something more than what we know that there is something related to the spirit, but I do not believe that we can possibly understand it as we are now, maybe we never will who knows.

Alakazam17
January 12th, 2009, 11:20 AM
It's not that I don't believe or disbelieve in Jesus, or any other god or deity.

It's just that...I don't care. XD

Regardless of whether there is a god or not, I live my life according to my morals, and not according to anything Jesus may tell me to do. Though having said this, we're usually on the same wavelength. ^^

Mira
January 12th, 2009, 11:21 AM
The Bible is the only ancient holy book that is completely historically accurate (except for the books that are written in a more metaphorical way) as well as having every book agree with one another, despite being a collaboration of many different author's works.

Everything has to happen for a reason and everyone has to have a purpose... at least that is what I believe.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:23 AM
The Bible is the only ancient holy book that is completely historically accurate (except for the books that are written in a more metaphorical way) as well as having every book agree with one another, despite being a collaboration of many different author's works.

Everything has to happen for a reason and everyone has to have a purpose... at least that is what I believe.

That's all true(the first part) and for Christians, the last part is too. God says that all things work out for good for those who love Him.

EDIT: Yay, first post on the second page!

Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 11:24 AM
I'm not Jewish but I have the belief that once you die, you pass on into another body.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I'm not Jewish but I have the belief that once you die, you pass on into another body.

That's not what Jews believe - I think that's what Hindus believe. Maybe. It's called reincarnation.

Ivysaur
January 12th, 2009, 11:25 AM
I'm atheistic. I think there is no god or paradise or whatever, because the only reality and existence I can prove myself that exists is this one. I live to be happy here, not in any future life or whatever. Also, I don't live trying to make a higher being happy, but trying to make all the other people who I can make sure they exist as happy as they deserve to be.

Kazukii
January 12th, 2009, 11:26 AM
That's not what Jews believe - I think that's what Hindus believe. Maybe. It's called reincarnation.

Oh I thought it was a Jewish belief ^_^ Shows how much I know haha =P

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:27 AM
As happy as they deserve to be? How happy is that? Or is it relative?

Ivysaur
January 12th, 2009, 11:33 AM
As happy as they deserve to be? How happy is that? Or is it relative?

That depends on their acts, of course.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Oh, so a person who is "good" will be treated "better" than a "bad" person?

Ruphire
January 12th, 2009, 11:36 AM
Yes I believe in God. And Jesus also.

Mooshykris
January 12th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I am thinking, maybe we should either change this topic, or make a new topic that refers to a higher being in general.

Because I know many people who don't believe in the Christian God, but believe in a higher being.

~Mooshykris

Rockéttes
January 12th, 2009, 11:43 AM
Oh, so a person who is "good" will be treated "better" than a "bad" person?

Uh, yeah. That's basically how it goes. >__> (prison, for example?)

Mira
January 12th, 2009, 11:43 AM
I agree.
I want to know more about other beliefs as well along with people's perspectives on said beliefs.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 11:43 AM
You mean, a god that controls another god? Like in Greece?

Uh, yeah. That's basically how it goes. >__> (prison, for example?)

oh X.X

that makes more sense now...

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 11:46 AM
Oh I thought it was a Jewish belief ^_^ Shows how much I know haha =P
That is not, in any way shape or form, remotely Jewish :|

The Jewish follow the Hebrew version of the Old Testament, the most accurate version of the bible I think, less hands in it than the King James version of the bible that's for sure. So, for that reason there's no belief of reincarnation because they believe in God. Granted I'm being very general, because there are a lot of other things too.

I would like to make -absolutely clear- that the Jewish God is not the same as the Christian God, there are a few similarities in beliefs but, with all the different secs of Christianity it's quite small.

Aurafire
January 12th, 2009, 11:46 AM
I'm an atheist, so I don't believe in any god or higher power. I see no point in devoting time and effort to something that has no proof of existence and no logical place in the natural world. I live for the moment and the people around me, and I'm not superstitious enough to pretend that every single one of my actions here on earth are being judged by someone and will determine whether I am sent to a heaven or hell. I don't believe that there is an afterlife after we die and I totally accept that.

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Because I know many people who don't believe in the Christian God, but believe in a higher being.

~Mooshykris
Exactly why I have a problem with the horribly biased poll. :|

.Socks
January 12th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Atheistic, here. I've read the Holy Bible some four times, and simply can't take it as fact. As was previously stated, I'd rather spend my time making people I am sure exist happy.

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 11:52 AM
Atheistic, here. I've read the Holy Bible some four times, and simply can't take it as fact. As was previously stated, I'd rather spend my time making people I am sure exist happy.
That's because the bible shouldn't be taken as fact or even literally, it should be taken as something with a little bit of history and some good lesson. There's a lot of good stories and such in there, when you stop looking it as a literal guide and more like a book of Asop's Fables, it a bit different.

flight
January 12th, 2009, 12:12 PM
I'm just going to post by saying Yes, I believe in God/Jesus. I'm not going to sit here and debate because there's honestly no point in it when I can just toss out my opinion anyways. So yeah.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Yeah I kinda agree with you, Gilgamesh. We should just believe in what we believe. I just want to say one more thing though and it's one point why you should believe in God. Well, there is the history of Jesus and there is the bible, and there is the calender that has all of the exact dates. Then when you think about the haaj, there is no history, no bible or record, no nothing, I wouldn't be surprised if that is just a meteorite, but sometimes I think it's the anti-christ. I'm not trying to offend mouslums, i'm just making a statement, you can say i'm wrong and you can say God doesn't exist but thats just my opinion. I'm sure this might offend people or then again maybe not but I don't mean to offend in any way. Well, thats all I have to say.

Avey
January 12th, 2009, 12:28 PM
Yes, definitely, I believe that Jesus will come down from heaven and slay the anti-christ when 2012 comes. That was just brief, if you want to know more, you can just pm me or give me a visitor comment, whatever you want. I'm very into this kinda stuff and won't mind telling whoever wants to know, but lots of you may already know all of that stuff just trying to be helpful ;)

...

What? Where's the evidence to backup what you just said? That just sounds ridiculous to me.

And no; I don't believe in God. No religion has managed to sway my opinion yet and I don't think it will be swayed anytime soon. At the risk of sounding cliché, I make my own destiny. There is no higher force above me, looking over me. It just doesn't fit.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 12:34 PM
Like I said in my most recent post, the calender, I don't know the exact name for the calender but thats all the evidence you need. Also, there is a guy called Jack Van Impe and he has his own show, watch that and he'll tell you. Well, it's your choice that you don't believe in God.

Barney.
January 12th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Personally? no.

Now I believe that Jesus was a real person..But I do not believe that he did all those miracles..

I maybe think that people thought he was the son of god because he did something pretty amazing for that time..Now I can not think of something off the top of my head, but surely you know what i mean.

Now for god:

There are many arguments against him being true, for instance:

The Argument that says: "If god is all-loving and all-powerful, why does he let evil and suffering happen?"

Well, basically there have been many arguments from chirstians too go against this argument..But I think I'll say these ones:

"God created the world, but he is not outside it, and he can not control it"

"God lets evil and suffering happen because Adam and Eve turned their back on god, therefore, people must suffer"

"God lets evil and suffering happen so humans can build strength and character"

__________________________________________________________________________

So now there is an argument for god Existing..This is called: The Design argument.

The Design Argument basically says: "The world is so beautiful, there must have been some sort of designer"

Many people argue against this by saying that "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder",
So some people may think that the mountains are Beautiful...but others may consider them just to be a pile of rock.

__________________________________________________________________________

So basically I am saying that there are perfectly good arguments for both sides..

But I don't believe in god because of the lack of proof.

Sorry for the long post :S

LethalTexture
January 12th, 2009, 01:00 PM
I do not believe in God. I was brought up in such a way that Science is the correct way, and holds all the answers.

No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.

I have nothing against people who do believe. You are all entitled to believe in what you want to and I completely respect that. It's nice that people believe and all... but it's time people started to wake up and see the truth. I've always lived by the fact that if you want to believe in something, believe in yourself.

I refuse to believe in something when science proves it to be so farcical.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 01:03 PM
"If god is all-loving and all-powerful, why does he let evil and suffering happen?"

The Adam and Eve thing is kinda hard to believe but it could be also true, this is what I think; God is making us "suffer" because the Devil, well, the Devil actually has a name but I hate saying it, anyway, he way Gods best angel and he had so much power that he thought he was god so then, God kicked him out of Heaven and God made him look bad and ugly and stuff not like the beautiful angel ha was, and now God is seeing who can come to Heaven and the ones who can't. This is one of things that I think is true.

Callandor
January 12th, 2009, 01:05 PM
Like I said in my most recent post, the calender, I don't know the exact name for the calender but thats all the evidence you need. Also, there is a guy called Jack Van Impe and he has his own show, watch that and he'll tell you. Well, it's your choice that you don't believe in God.

What's that supposed to mean? I'm not trying start a fight or anything, but you say one thing and say that's all we need? It's like, and this is a bad example but I can't think of any thing else, a math teacher giving you one problem and saying you will need this the rest of your life. No awenser, just that problem.

And don't beleive in god, but am open to any possiblities, so long as you have enough proof.

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 01:06 PM
I do not believe in God. I was brought up in such a way that Science is the correct way, and holds all the answers.

No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.

I refuse to believe in something when science proves it to be so farcical.
My question to you is, why is to so impossible to think that something spiritual can co-exist with science? As I've said before and I'll say again, there is more than one concept of God. Why does everyone keep 'defaulting' to the christian god :|

PS, the Big Bang theory is not 100% proven, there have been a few discoveries that have made the theory shaky. Theories are theories until they are proven as fact. I say this as I too take science very seriously, we cannot find the truth until we question enough so that we can prove it is true.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 01:09 PM
Callandor; Well, maybe I went a little overboard but I still believe that, there is other proof too but I don't want to go listing them now.

Cherrim
January 12th, 2009, 01:10 PM
I don't believe. Or maybe it's just that I don't care?

Whether there is a god or not, it just seems like too much work to figure out which religion is "doing it right" and following the right path. I could dedicate my whole like to Christianity, or Hinduism, or something else and... at the end of it, I could be damned for following the wrong thing anyway. So instead I just ignore the whole thing as best I can and live my life for myself with my own philosophies.

If a god does exist, I'd probably just believe he/she/it started the big bang and sat back with some popcorn to watch and hasn't really done much since. :]

LethalTexture
January 12th, 2009, 01:12 PM
My question to you is, why is to so impossible to think that something spiritual can co-exist with science? As I've said before and I'll say again, there is more than one concept of God. Why does everyone keep 'defaulting' to the christian god :|

PS, the Big Bang theory is not 100% proven, there have been a few discoveries that have made the theory shaky. Theories are theories until they are proven as fact. I say this as I too take science very seriously, we cannot find the truth until we question enough so that we can prove it is true.

Because the discoveries of science cancel out what the teachings of religion say. I am fully aware that there is more that once concept of God, but since this thread refers specifically to the Christian sense, that's what my post was based on.

I concur, we cannot 100% prove that the Big Bang theory is correct, but I have read up on it enough to conclude that it is the theory with the highest chance of being correct. Similarly, we cannot 100% prove the existence (or indeed lack of) of God, or another higher being. But from what I have learned throughout my life, what I have read up on and what I have been taught to believe, the existence of a higher being is completely illogical.

Conclusively, we cannot prove one way or the other, so this debate cancels itself out. Athiests and believers coming together and pitting their 'evidence' against the other side will ultimately prove nothing.

Volknerz
January 12th, 2009, 01:15 PM
yes because when i was Locked up(in juvy) I realized that what the bible said is true... "That we will all be put through test intil we learn a lesson".

so i read the bible but what I wonder

"WHY were we created and why do we have to die?

Life is all bout happiness and Love... but I say Yes

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 01:16 PM
Lightning; I'm just saying this and not arguing but if don't believe in anything then I think you could just not go to any after life, this is just an example but God would not want to reward you for just sitting and maybe just having the crack, he wants you to believe as one of his followers, thats just an example but maybe even true but you should believe in something. You don't have to if you don't want to, i'm just saying it.

Callandor
January 12th, 2009, 01:17 PM
I do not believe in God. I was brought up in such a way that Science is the correct way, and holds all the answers.

No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.

I have nothing against people who do believe. You are all entitled to believe in what you want to and I completely respect that. It's nice that people believe and all... but it's time people started to wake up and see the truth. I've always lived by the fact that if you want to believe in something, believe in yourself.

I refuse to believe in something when science proves it to be so farcical.

That is awesome. And makes alot of sence. I also grew up with parents that did not believe in God. I also grew up watching The Land Before Time movies, and as my mom said "How can you not believe in evolution watching this?

Armaina
January 12th, 2009, 01:22 PM
Because the discoveries of science cancel out what the teachings of religion say. I am fully aware that there is more that once concept of God, but since this thread refers specifically to the Christian sense, that's what my post was based on.

I concur, we cannot 100% prove that the Big Bang theory is correct, but I have read up on it enough to conclude that it is the theory with the highest chance of being correct. Similarly, we cannot 100% prove the existence (or indeed lack of) of God, or another higher being. But from what I have learned throughout my life, what I have read up on and what I have been taught to believe, the existence of a higher being is completely illogical.

Conclusively, we cannot prove one way or the other, so this debate cancels itself out. Athiests and believers coming together and pitting their 'evidence' against the other side will ultimately prove nothing.
Science cancels out what -organized- religions teach, there's a catch there ~_^ The problem is the person that started the thread made a poll specifically referencing the christian god and then asked very vague questions :|

Of course, I would like to state, that I don't believe in arguing whether or not a belief is true, that is impossible, none of us can prove that no matter what anyone says. Now sharing one's beliefs in reasons for them or the possibility of. However trying to prove whether any religion or any form a spirituality is true is just silly.

s0nido
January 12th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Yes I do. But not in the same way Christians do. As a Muslim, I believe that God created everything and Jesus was God's messenger, not his son.

Now the Big Bang theory. Before the Big Bang, apparently there was nothing. What could've caused it? The Big Bang couldn't have just exploded in an empty void. So obviously, God did so. I mean, scientists say that there must've been higher power in the creation of the universe. Furthermore, can you say that the entire universe regulates itself on one massive coincidence? People are saying that there was one coincidence after another that prompted the orbits of planets, the creation of stars, the creation of life forms and such. The complexity of such things must be managed by some higher intellignce and not by coincidence. Science is correct in many ways, but it only provides evidence for what we do know. It only answers things ased on evidence we have collected. As for the rest of the things that science doesn't know, scientists invent theoies to explain stuff for us.

Now, take a look around you and witness all the nature. Witness all the technology you have create and the beauty of the things God has creeated. Animals, plants, the Earth. Don't you think something must be behind our existence? We're the only intelligent species on Earth. Don't you think that there ust be some reason for our existence as intelligent beings? Do we just get born, go to school, get a job, make mone and die? I think not. There must be some purpose in life beyond that. Religion explains this.

Jorah
January 12th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Nope. There are literally thousands and thousands of religions out there, all who think they have the right one, there's no reason to believe that one is right other than being brought up in that religion...I have thought about it a lot, really. I sway between thinking there is something out there, because how we all work seems crazily complicated and seems to work together, such as all the organs in the body, that I think someone must have designed it. But I also sometimes think that there's definatly nothing out there and it's just a load of people being brainwashed. We've done so much in sociology about sects, some go in months, some become huge, and I think to myself, Christianity is just one of those sects that happened to have took off.

All I want to know if how the universe was created, but I suppose I'll never really know, which makes me feel kind of sad.

Sora_8920
January 12th, 2009, 01:38 PM
lol Jews.

Anyways..not really. But only because there really isn't any proof at all that he exists.

~Kavin~
January 12th, 2009, 01:40 PM
Yup. I'm a christian and was brought up in a christian home so yeah.

Kaori
January 12th, 2009, 01:43 PM
I totally believe in them...btw I am hindi!

Cherrim
January 12th, 2009, 01:49 PM
Lightning; I'm just saying this and not arguing but if don't believe in anything then I think you could just not go to any after life, this is just an example but God would not want to reward you for just sitting and maybe just having the crack, he wants you to believe as one of his followers, thats just an example but maybe even true but you should believe in something. You don't have to if you don't want to, i'm just saying it.
;( First commandment in Judaism/Christianity/Islam's beliefs is basically: You shall have no other gods before me. So if I do go ahead and pick out a religion that matches my belief and give it my all... there's a possibility it's all for nothing anyway because I'll have spent my whole life breaking the first commandment if one of those three is the right religion. :P

I've been an atheist for a long time--it's only recently (last year or two) that I realized I can easily entertain the idea of having a higher power, I just don't care to. It's not like I live my life being a terrible person or anything, I just don't pay any mind to a higher deity. Hopefully that'll be enough and if there is a god, he/she/it is a benevolent one who likes me all the same. :P If not? Well, won't know till I get there anyway. "What ifs" aren't really my thing and never have been.

the bitter end.
January 12th, 2009, 02:23 PM
I am a christian, and I don't plan on any sudden changes to this.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 02:26 PM
I do not believe in God. I was brought up in such a way that Science is the correct way, and holds all the answers.

No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.

I have nothing against people who do believe. You are all entitled to believe in what you want to and I completely respect that. It's nice that people believe and all... but it's time people started to wake up and see the truth. I've always lived by the fact that if you want to believe in something, believe in yourself.

I refuse to believe in something when science proves it to be so farcical.

I can at least clear up the Adam and Eve stuff.

It's true, they had Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel, and then was "banished." Then they had Seth, another boy. Adam and Eve lived for 100s of years, and obviously had daughters. Somehow, mutations were avoided and they were the parents of all humankind.

At least, that's what I believe.

♣Gawain♣
January 12th, 2009, 02:28 PM
Of course there is God. What do you expect? Who created the first bubble that exploded to become the Big Bang? To become us?

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 02:29 PM
"If god is all-loving and all-powerful, why does he let evil and suffering happen?"

The Adam and Eve thing is kinda hard to believe but it could be also true, this is what I think; God is making us "suffer" because the Devil, well, the Devil actually has a name but I hate saying it, anyway, he way Gods best angel and he had so much power that he thought he was god so then, God kicked him out of Heaven and God made him look bad and ugly and stuff not like the beautiful angel ha was, and now God is seeing who can come to Heaven and the ones who can't. This is one of things that I think is true.

Um, what? This doesn't make any sense.

God lets "evil and bad things happen," yes. BUT, for all "who love Him and keep His commandments," He will work all things out for good. Sometimes He does bad things to those who are not His children as a warning to His children, and even things like 9/11 and the war in Iraq will eventually turn into something good. We may never know how, but some of us will when we go to heaven.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 02:29 PM
I thought it was the snake that tempted Eve to eat the apple and at that time, the snake had arms and stuff, and after the incident, the snakes were punished and had to slither along on the ground. Thats what I thought.

Milke
January 12th, 2009, 02:32 PM
;( First commandment in Judaism/Christianity/Islam's beliefs is basically: You shall have no other gods before me. So if I do go ahead and pick out a religion that matches my belief and give it my all... there's a possibility it's all for nothing anyway because I'll have spent my whole life breaking the first commandment if one of those three is the right religion. :P

I've been an atheist for a long time--it's only recently (last year or two) that I realized I can easily entertain the idea of having a higher power, I just don't care to. It's not like I live my life being a terrible person or anything, I just don't pay any mind to a higher deity. Hopefully that'll be enough and if there is a god, he/she/it is a benevolent one who likes me all the same. :P If not? Well, won't know till I get there anyway. "What ifs" aren't really my thing and never have been.

You could at least research them, and figure out which one's right. Then even if you didn't 100% believe in it, you could at least say you tried.

I thought it was the snake that tempted Eve to eat the apple and at that time, the snake had arms and stuff, and after the incident, the snakes were punished and had to slither along on the ground. Thats what I thought.

Just read the first book of the Bible. It's pretty straightforward.

processr
January 12th, 2009, 02:35 PM
If you're reading the Bible and taking it literally - on the first level of meaning - you're doing it wrong. I don't need to be a Christian philosopher to tell you that. >>

Yamikarasu
January 12th, 2009, 02:37 PM
Ooh... controversial topics...

I'm going to say that first you should define 'God,' but assuming you mean something supernatural that created the universe, then no, I don't belive in that. As for Jesus, I'm sure the man existed (although I would not be surprised if he didn't) I just doubt he was the son of said 'God.'

What is my reason for not believing in God? Simply that I have no personal justification for believing so, and until I do I'm just not going to bother with it. I would rather have humanity striving to understand who they are and how they came to be rather than just saying "God did it" and be done with it.

I'm fine with those who have other opinions, just don't try threatening me with hell if I don't agree with you.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 02:38 PM
Um, what? This doesn't make any sense.

God lets "evil and bad things happen," yes. BUT, for all "who love Him and keep His commandments," He will work all things out for good. Sometimes He does bad things to those who are not His children as a warning to His children, and even things like 9/11 and the war in Iraq will eventually turn into something good. We may never know how, but some of us will when we go to heaven.

If you are asking the same question again then I will say it differently; this is an example; Well, you know that there are lots of murderers around, well, why would God want to give them paradise in heaven for putting people in pain and agony, God would surly put them in Hell, or maybe not well, it's his choice. If you were asking the same question then this is what i'm saying.

Spinor
January 12th, 2009, 02:51 PM
Yeah, I'm Catholic. I'm pretty sure I believe in God :/.

However, I like to think Scientifically as well. Noah's Flood? Oh simple, God knew the sun was gonna go extreme, cause global warning, and flood the earth, so he commanded Noah to save the animals. Just some theories I have.

I never understood Scientologists, do they believe in a God or are they believers of that ancient creature man arose? Or something? That confuses me.a

wolf
January 12th, 2009, 02:53 PM
We might not go to Heaven, but maybe there is a place where he will keep us once Judgement Day comes...

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 03:00 PM
We might not go to Heaven, but maybe there is a place where he will keep us once Judgement Day comes...

Hey! That just reminds me, I think there is a middle place in between Hell
and Heaven, I don't know what it's called but I think it's just supposed to be just boring, you just have to wait.

wolf
January 12th, 2009, 03:04 PM
Yeah, maybe if you do something bad you don't go to hell until Judgment Day!

Cherrim
January 12th, 2009, 03:06 PM
You could at least research them, and figure out which one's right. Then even if you didn't 100% believe in it, you could at least say you tried.
If it were possible to figure out once and for all which religion was "right", it would have been done long ago.

:/ My whole point is that while there very well could be a religion that's right (or maybe whatever god there may be doesn't HAVE an official following!), but I just don't care. Maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't. I'm gonna live my life the same way whether there is or not. Maybe that philosophy will change one day but for now, it's what works best for me.
Hey! That just reminds me, I think there is a middle place in between Hell
and Heaven, I don't know what it's called but I think it's just supposed to be just boring, you just have to wait.
Purgatory. iirc, not all parts of Christianity believe in it though.

Spaekle Oddberry
January 12th, 2009, 03:09 PM
No, I don't; all evidence points toward no such thing existing. If I ever was presented with concrete evidence of the existence of a god or gods, I'd acknowledge their existence(s) - I still probably wouldn't worship them, however. I actually vowed several years ago to never live my life by the rules of any book, and I'd rather not use a higher deity that might not even exist as an excuse for hating groups of people or having other irrational beliefs. Religion when used like that is absolutely sickening. :\

Netto Azure
January 12th, 2009, 03:14 PM
Yes I do. I'm a Roman Catholic and ever since my grandma came here in December and visited from Canada. We've been going to church regularly and my faith is relatively restored.
I just can't bring myself to believe that there is only nothingness in the afterlife. ^_^

Also I think St. Thomas Aquinas put things well into perspective.

Edit: Well to add to things, I also believe in what Science has discovered. I just can't also come to grips and laugh in my head everytime people talk on how Genesis is the beginning.
Yes my Phiolosophy has become contradicting but that's why I said St. Thomas Aquinas. =P

Volkner's Apprentice
January 12th, 2009, 03:19 PM
I definitely believe in, at the very least, some forms of higher beings, whether it be God and Jesus himself or Gods of nature and the elements.

TwilightBlade
January 12th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I've never read the Bible or been to church, but I believe in God/Jesus. I don't want to get into reasons or details or debates; I just do.

We can spend the day discussing our viewpoints, or we can all go outside? :^D

s0nido
January 12th, 2009, 03:23 PM
I don't want to feel that my time on Earth is wasted. After all, there must be some reason why we are all on Earth. And which smart alec made this thread anyway? Just want to make name for yourself, don't you? Religion is a sensitive topic, and I think that everyone should stick to their beliefs and not try to convert the world. There can only be one correct religion, and we'll find out soon enough.

Michii
January 12th, 2009, 03:28 PM
This thread has more people viewing it right now than the DCC had two hours after the New Year. :o

I believe in God, but I don't hold many of the beliefs that other Catholics in my church hold. I personally believe that God created the universe for whatever to happen to it. He does not intervene in such ways to prevent evil and danger from spreading. I do not believe in the Adam and Eve thinger though; I believe in evolution from the start of the first cell to exist on this planet. I believe that animals have souls and do go to heaven just like humans do. Oh! Andandand I kind of believe in reincarnation where you like... ermm... go to heaven and say "Hey God, can you be awesome and let me live another life?" andandand God's like "Yeah, but remember that you may not return here" and such. Iono, I just think that right now. Do not try to debate with my beliefs, because I'm respecting your posts that I don't think are true enough to just read them. have a problem with that? Go hit yourself with a mutant carrot! :<

.Socks
January 12th, 2009, 03:33 PM
My question to you is, why is to so impossible to think that something spiritual can co-exist with science? As I've said before and I'll say again, there is more than one concept of God. Why does everyone keep 'defaulting' to the christian god :|

PS, the Big Bang theory is not 100% proven, there have been a few discoveries that have made the theory shaky. Theories are theories until they are proven as fact. I say this as I too take science very seriously, we cannot find the truth until we question enough so that we can prove it is true.

a theory: a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world...

Of course, it is always open to revamping and editing, but it is still pretty solid.
More than most can say in support of a God, really.

Avey
January 12th, 2009, 03:38 PM
Like I said in my most recent post, the calender, I don't know the exact name for the calender but thats all the evidence you need. Also, there is a guy called Jack Van Impe and he has his own show, watch that and he'll tell you. Well, it's your choice that you don't believe in God.

What? What calender? The only calender I've ever heard of that predicted the world would end somehow (it didn't even include an Anti-Christ) was the Aztec. You can't just tell me there's a calender out there that you don't know the name of and brush it off as evidence. That's ridiculous. If the Christian calender predicted that the world would meet the anti-Christ in 2012, I think I'd know. I have the feeling the calender you're talking about doesn't exist or it was made by some sort of misguided cult.

And Jack Van Impe; his show is utterly ridiculous. Good for the lulz, yes, but utterly ridiculous. He starts his show by reading out a news headline and then he uses verses from the bible to interpret them. Often he manages to show that they are predicted events linked with the end of the world.

He's pointed to many dates and said that the second coming of Christ would occur on them, but a lot have already passed and as they do, he just comes up with another point in the near future. His latest guess is 2012. He doesn't have any reason to say 2012. He doesn't have any evidence to back himself up. He's a complete oddball no one should take seriously.

Blazers
January 12th, 2009, 03:46 PM
No i do not believe in god at all.
i beleive "god" is just a higher power used from within to look upon something in a staggering moment.
This "help me god" is really you, searching for your real strength.
He is just a symbol to something of human nature.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 03:53 PM
What? What calender? The only calender I've ever heard of that predicted the world would end somehow (it didn't even include an Anti-Christ) was the Aztec. You can't just tell me there's a calender out there that you don't know the name of and brush it off as evidence. That's ridiculous. If the Christian calender predicted that the world would meet the anti-Christ in 2012, I think I'd know. I have the feeling the calender you're talking about doesn't exist or it was made by some sort of misguided cult.

And Jack Van Impe; his show is utterly ridiculous. Good for the lulz, yes, but utterly ridiculous. He starts his show by reading out a news headline and then he uses verses from the bible to interpret them. Often he manages to show that they are predicted events linked with the end of the world.

He's pointed to many dates and said that the second coming of Christ would occur on them, but a lot have already passed and as they do, he just comes up with another point in the near future. His latest guess is 2012. He doesn't have any reason to say 2012. He doesn't have any evidence to back himself up. He's a complete oddball no one should take seriously.

Thats the same thing calender I was talking about and I meant about that "end of the world" thing. Look... I didn't say that I wanted to argue! I just said what I believed, and I didn't want to argue. We will see when the day comes!! You can't just come in and just say that i'm completely wrong or you can't just say that a person on the television is wrong!! You don't know for sure and I didn't say that it was definite about what I said, nobody knows the exact truth! And you would know that yourself.

Avey
January 12th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Thats the same thing calender I was talking about and I meant about that "end of the world" thing. Look... I didn't say that I wanted to argue! I just said what I believed, and I didn't want to argue. We will see when the day comes!! You can't just come in and just say that i'm completely wrong or you can't just say that a person on the television is wrong!! You don't know for sure and I didn't say that it was definite about what I said, nobody knows the exact truth! And you would know that yourself.

Arguing does not equal debating. You do not wish to debate because you have nothing to back yourself up with other than the fact that Jack has managed to brainwash you. The calender is fake. There's no real evidence to prove that what he's saying is true.

Actually, wait. I'm a God. Worship me. You'll listen to that, right? 'Cause it seems to me that you'll just listen to anything without asking for evidence.

Yamikarasu
January 12th, 2009, 04:01 PM
And which smart alec made this thread anyway? Just want to make name for yourself, don't you? Religion is a sensitive topic, and I think that everyone should stick to their beliefs and not try to convert the world.

Agreed, topics like this can only divide and anger people. There should be a rule that prevents these kinds of threads.

AtomicoExploda
January 12th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Arguing does not equal debating. You do not wish to debate because you have nothing to back yourself up with other than the fact that Jack has managed to brainwash you. The calender is fake. There's no real evidence to prove that what he's saying is true.

Actually, wait. I'm a God. Worship me. You'll listen to that, right? 'Cause it seems to me that you'll just listen to anything without asking for evidence.

Yeah, very funny. I'm not brainwashed and I know he might not be completely true, you might be true even. But yeah maybe I used the wrong word, I don't want to debate about it so. Also, I knew you were gonna say something like that, as I said, we should just wait and see. I don't want to make enemies I actually just like to make friends no enemies and I don't want you to be my enemy either so if we could just stop this debate and wait 3 years, then we will find out, otherwise this debate will go on for ages and other people will join in and start to add more to this debate. So, can't we just stop?

Angela
January 12th, 2009, 04:08 PM
I can at least clear up the Adam and Eve stuff.

It's true, they had Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel, and then was "banished." Then they had Seth, another boy. Adam and Eve lived for 100s of years, and obviously had daughters. Somehow, mutations were avoided and they were the parents of all humankind.

At least, that's what I believe.
Hey I was learning about Norwegian religion, don't know what it's called in English but it's called, Ásartrú in Icelandic, and I learned that the first people in there were called, Askur and Embla, wow same letters as in Adam and Eve (Eva),

And yes I believe in god and his son, but I'm not like hardcore on it, Christianity has it flaws,

And have you wondered how everything is so alike with the creation, like in Ásartrú, Óðinn and his brothers killed Ýmir, a titan (Jötun), and in the Greek and Roman, something similar happened with Zeus, and in Budishm there is a circle, a never ending one, just like in Ásatrú, after (ragnarök)end of the world, the cicle was suppose to start all over, when you think about things like that you can see how simular but yet so diffrent things are.

Hiidoran
January 12th, 2009, 04:22 PM
I do not believe in the Christian God, nor do I put my faith in any other gods or deities. There was a time when I believed whole-heartily in the Christian faith, but my experiences on this earth have persuaded my vision to turn elsewhere.

Gods and higher-powers will always co-exist with any type of intellectual beings. Once in possession of the power to think, one begins to question existence. All of mankind, since it's birth, has always searched for the answer to the meaning of life; it is our nature. Omnipotent beings that have existed since the beginning of time give our minds' solace to a question we can never possibly understand.

For those that cannot understand why a seemingly infinite plain would suddenly explode and expand, you misunderstand. The universe was not infinite at the point before the "Big-bang". It was a concentrated area of all the building blocks of mass that will ever exist that "exploded" and is currently expanding into infinity. In all honesty, there are some theories that describe the universe as oscillating, meaning that at a certain point the universe will begin to concentrate itself again and repeat the whole process. Time itself may be cyclical.

People refute the "Big-Bang" theory with ideals that the earth and it's workings are too perfect to ever be a result of chance. People who believe in a higher-power argue that too many coincidences would have had to occur in order for life to have been created without the outside aid of a creator-god. To this I offer the argument that anything is possible given enough time and that's something the concentrated universe had an abundance of. In fact, there is an infinitely small chance that the molecules in your fingers can fuse with the molecules in your keyboard right now. The chance is so small however, that one would never witness this in the span of many lifetimes. Given eternity, it will eventually happen.

My own arguments aside, I believe anyone has the right to believe the way they wish. I have no right to claim that my ideals are correct above any others and nobody else has the right to claim the theirs is either. The simple fact is that everyone, even if the differences are minuscule, has a different view on creation. We won't know until we're gone, right? Sorry, this is one of those topics I enjoy discussing. XD

Sorano
January 12th, 2009, 04:34 PM
My family considers themselves Christian-Protestant. However, I'm pretty much open to all possibilities. I don't know if I actually believe there is a "God", but definitely a higher power. I don't believe that there is a scientific explanation behind everything, and honestly I'd prefer not to think that way. That just makes this world so much more boring. If a higher power does exist, he doesn't save people or prevent bad things from happening, he just let's life flow the way that it's supposed to be. As for what happens after you die, I really don't know. I'd like to believe there is a Heaven, though.

I would prefer not to be immensely dedicated to believing in something that may not be real, and spending my Sundays going to church (however, I do like to attend when I can), so I remain on the fence.

parallelzero
January 12th, 2009, 04:42 PM
I'm of the opinion that we'll never know for sure, so it's stupid to argue over baseless theories that don't prove anything.

Though I lean more towards 'no'.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 05:13 PM
It definitely doesn't exist, and it's not about believing, it's about proving... first, nothing can be created or destroyed, only transformed: means that the mass and energy in the universe (I call it massenergy) is a constant, because you can turn mass into energy, and in stranger cases, viceversa... This argument proves the universe was never created or destroyed, but transported... Big Bang was a white hole, expelling the ever-transported massenergy that the last black hole swallowed, meaning the end of all massenergy in the spacetime as we know (our dimension), will be because of the merging of all black holes, fact that was studied... (a when 2 black holes encounter, they turn into a more massive one, and gets catapulted... no one knows where it is catapulted, but that is still in the same dimension...)

Many of you talk about creating... but creation in terms of massenergy doesn't exists, so believing is for people who can't prove this... it's a cycle, and you can't stop it from happening...

About values... those were created by the human being to control a society, making a religion, all in attempt to make rules to follow, and to make us more "advanced" (and it's good for the creators of the religions, because they have followers, all already manipulated... doing what these people with ideas want to), but in my opinion, it would be better to teach the people how to prove everything, and to question everything around you, suggesting a better thing to do, to continue with the progress... so religion must be left in the past, and we should worry more about other stuff... such as what to do to advance as a society for real...

About the design of the universe, that's something that nobody decides, it's just a product of physics, chemistry and casualities, of course... nothing else... (note that casualities can't be made by something superior, because there's nothing superior than the power of the human intelligence to transform everything around him/her...)

Therefore, intelligence can't be given by a "GOD", it's a result of adapting to your surroundings and being able to transform them, which is called evolution... Positive proof of evolution is in the DNA of all living beings, having parts alike, meaning that we all differ because of specific adaptations to everything...

These arguments kill others, and prove there's no such thing as "God"...

Metatron
January 12th, 2009, 05:51 PM
I don't believe in the Christian God, or any other form of higher being or "creator."

Why? I was brought up Catholic by both parents, and I was forced to attend CCD up until until 12 or 13 years old. Going there every week and being told how humanity is hell-ridden, and we're all gonna burn in a lake of fire when we die...really isn't something I wanted to hear about xD;

So yeah, I'm an atheist. Not one of those douchebag atheists that's constantly trying to promote my ideas onto everyone else I know, though. My religion, or lack thereof is my business alone; I'll believe what I want to believe, and you can believe what you want to believe. The only problem I've ever had with religious people before in the past are the hardcore fanatics who are constantly trying to throw their beliefs at you, like they know what happens when you die.

...Dayum, just think for a second about all the conflict that could be resolved in today's world if people just knew when to respect others beliefs, and mind their own effing business ._.

s0nido
January 12th, 2009, 06:08 PM
Agreed. Everyone should just stick to their own religion rather than dumping their speeches of conversion onto an unwilling atheist. I am a Muslim, others are Christian, others are atheist, but I don't really care who. Now stop throwing evidence around and answer the question. Do you believe in God or not?

Kirakas.
January 12th, 2009, 06:17 PM
I'm a Christian, so yes, I believe in God.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 06:20 PM
Lord GaGa, who are you talking to? Me, or Vega, or both?

icomeanon6
January 12th, 2009, 06:28 PM
The fundamental problem with our current understanding of the Universe is this:

According to the Law of Conservation of Mass, nothing should exist. If matter cannot be created or destroyed, why is it here? Don't even try saying "the big bang," because matter cannot (I repeat, can. not.) spontaneously exist or change form on its own. Current science does not offer any reason as to why matter exists, in fact, you could go far to say that science implies that nothing exists. All it can say about matter is that it was not ever created and will not ever be destroyed, that it simply is.

Just like God.

According to a simple law that everyone learns in middle school, the existence of God is just as unexplained as the existence of anything.

.Socks
January 12th, 2009, 06:42 PM
The fundamental problem with our current understanding of the Universe is this:

According to the Law of Conservation of Mass, nothing should exist. If matter cannot be created or destroyed, why is it here? Don't even try saying "the big bang," because matter cannot (I repeat, can. not.) spontaneously exist or change form on its own. Current science does not offer any reason as to why matter exists, in fact, you could go far to say that science implies that nothing exists. All it can say about matter is that it was not ever created and will not ever be destroyed, that it simply is.

Just like God.

According to a simple law that everyone learns in middle school, the existence of God is just as unexplained as the existence of anything.

God cannot be related through scientific knowledge, because science does not support the idea of the supernatural.

The Big Bang simply states that matter grew over time, therefore being supported by the Law of Mass.

icomeanon6
January 12th, 2009, 06:43 PM
God cannot be related through scientific knowledge, because science does not support the idea of the supernatural.

The Big Bang simply states that matter grew over time, therefore being supported by the Law of Mass.
You're dodging around the issue. How do you explain the existence of matter?

.Socks
January 12th, 2009, 06:56 PM
You're dodging around the issue. How do you explain the existence of matter?

Energy in the form of light, carried in discrete packets called photons. When photons have an ideal amount of energy, they can randomly disintegrate into a particle and an antiparticle. As science has it, the photon is just one of a class of particles, called the bosons, that decay in this manner. Many of the bosons around just after the Big Bang were so full of energy that they could decay into much more massive particles such as protons. The mass in the universe came from such decays.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 07:00 PM
The fundamental problem with our current understanding of the Universe is this:

According to the Law of Conservation of Mass, nothing should exist. If matter cannot be created or destroyed, why is it here? Don't even try saying "the big bang," because matter cannot (I repeat, can. not.) spontaneously exist or change form on its own. Current science does not offer any reason as to why matter exists, in fact, you could go far to say that science implies that nothing exists. All it can say about matter is that it was not ever created and will not ever be destroyed, that it simply is.

Just like God.

According to a simple law that everyone learns in middle school, the existence of God is just as unexplained as the existence of anything.

But "God" is also supposed a creator, and never could have created anything... that's where you're wrong... Massenergy is not like "God"

If it were, me, or you, or anyone here would be "God", or a part of it...

That's why you're wrong!

Zet
January 12th, 2009, 07:03 PM
I do not believe in God. I was brought up in such a way that Science is the correct way, and holds all the answers.

No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.

I have nothing against people who do believe. You are all entitled to believe in what you want to and I completely respect that. It's nice that people believe and all... but it's time people started to wake up and see the truth. I've always lived by the fact that if you want to believe in something, believe in yourself.

I refuse to believe in something when science proves it to be so farcical.
apparently God created other humans though. And yes I do believe in God and Jesus, though it doesn't look like I am a believer before this post does it?

icomeanon6
January 12th, 2009, 07:04 PM
Energy in the form of light, carried in discrete packets called photons. When photons have an ideal amount of energy, they can randomly disintegrate into a particle and an antiparticle. As science has it, the photon is just one of a class of particles, called the bosons, that decay in this manner. Many of the bosons around just after the Big Bang were so full of energy that they could decay into much more massive particles such as protons. The mass in the universe came from such decays.
Again, you're missing the point because energy cannot exist spontaneously either. You're just trying to disguise the flaw in your logic with a bunch of sophisticated terminology. How do you explain the existence of light and energy?

.Socks
January 12th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Again, you're missing the point because energy cannot exist spontaneously either. You're just trying to disguise the flaw in your logic with a bunch of sophisticated terminology. How do you explain the existence of light and energy?

If you're going by rest mass, then light has no mass. Therefore clarifying my previous statement.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 07:24 PM
icomeanon6, and all "believers" begin to think beyond what religion tells you, question everything you see or your parents tell you, and find the correct explanations

Actually, supposing horses believe in a "God", their "God" would be a horse, and humans say "God" made them exactly alike to his image, so... why is everyone different? This is a paradox, meaning "God" can't exist...

s0nido
January 12th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Lord GaGa, who are you talking to? Me, or Vega, or both?

I was talking to Vega. And I agree with him.

icomeanon6
January 12th, 2009, 07:47 PM
If you're going by rest mass, then light has no mass. Therefore clarifying my previous statement.
How does that answer my question? I asked how you explain the existence of energy, and you respond by saying that it doesn't have mass. Again, why does energy exist?

Now to respond to someone else.

Actually, supposing horses believe in a "God", their "God" would be a horse, and humans say "God" made them exactly alike to his image, so... why is everyone different? This is a paradox, meaning "God" can't exist...

That is the most flawed logic I've read in months. Is your reasoning honestly that God can't exist because horses might think that he's different from how we picture him? Think about that for a minute, you should find that it doesn't make any bit of sense.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 08:02 PM
[quote=That is the most flawed logic I've read in months. Is your reasoning honestly that God can't exist because horses might think that he's different from how we picture him? Think about that for a minute, you should find that it doesn't make any bit of sense.[/quote]

My point is not that, my point is that if horses and humans believed in a "God", it means it wouldn't be the same, it's only made up by the mind, to explain what they can't!

Second, a "God" is used by you and many others to explain something you can't, which is your inability to see beyond, and a thing I can't change...

Also, you believe there's only "ONE GOD", and horses would say the same about their "God", meaning there would be 2 different "gods", which you think it's only one, making you incorrect again!

Another thing, if "God" created us all in his image (to clarify my point), then, why are we different? Answer that correctly! (Thing no one will answer, meaning it's a paradox, so again, "God" doesn't exist!

icomeanon6
January 12th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Another thing, if "God" created us all in his image (to clarify my point), then, why are we different? Answer that correctly! (Thing no one will answer, meaning it's a paradox, so again, "God" doesn't exist!
...

You've got to be joking. You obviously have a very loose grasp on logical reasoning.

Here is how your argument works, if you meant what you said:

-Christianity is of the opinion that God created us all in his image.
-People are different.
-Therefore, not everyone looks like God.
-Therefore, there is no God because the Christians say that everyone looks like God.

That's completely stupid!

For starters, the existence of God does not depend on Christians being exactly right. Another thing, when Christians say that we are all made in the likeness of God, what makes you think that they are referring to physical appearance? The statement could easily mean that all humans are similar in the respect that they, like God, are sentient. That's beside the point, though. The point is that even if the Christians are not completely correct in their idea of God, it does not mean that God doesn't exist.

Your argument reminded me of another logical fallacy, see if you recognize it.

-Cats have four legs.
-My dog has four legs.
-Therefore, my dog is a cat.

Get it? Your entire reasoning is based on uncorrelated points. I'll say it again: The accuracy of the Christian viewpoint has nothing to do with whether or not God exists.

Black Omega Zero
January 12th, 2009, 08:36 PM
...

You've got to be joking. You obviously have a very loose grasp on logical reasoning.

Here is how your argument works, if you meant what you said:

-Christianity is of the opinion that God created us all in his image.
-People are different.
-Therefore, not everyone looks like God.
-Therefore, there is no God because the Christians say that everyone looks like God.

That's completely stupid!

For starters, the existence of God does not depend on Christians being exactly right. Another thing, when Christians say that we are all made in the likeness of God, what makes you think that they are referring to physical appearance? The statement could easily mean that all humans are similar in the respect that they, like God, are sentient. That's beside the point, though. The point is that even if the Christians are not completely correct in their idea of God, it does not mean that God doesn't exist.

Your argument reminded me of another logical fallacy, see if you recognize it.

-Cats have four legs.
-My dog has four legs.
-Therefore, my dog is a cat.

Get it? Your entire reasoning is based on uncorrelated points. I'll say it again: The accuracy of the Christian viewpoint has nothing to do with whether or not God exists.

But you just don't understand at all... such thing doesn't exist, you're not proving its existance, but I'll prove you the opposite... and something else: every living being is required to believe in something... so you choose to believe in that, without proving it, because you're afraid of what you don't understand... the way you replied to all what I said... you're in the defensive... you don't understand the meaning of "go beyond of what someone tells you", such as your ideology... all I did was to make sure who am I dealing with... and you just proved to me that some minds can't go beyond a "faith", meaning at the same time that a "God" is something you use to put a sense to your life... my best reply to that would be telling you that life has no meaning at all, we're just a product of casualities, if this isn't true, there would be advance life in another planets in the solar system, which isn't true, therefore, your "God" doesn't exist... and as I said before, massenergy was never created or destroyed, and your "God" was supposed to create everything, which is, again, a paradox... and if science isn't true, then evolution isn't true, and then, we would have never evolved, which never happened that way... it's a contradiction... again I tell you... "God" can't exist!

In my case, I don't believe, I demonstrate what I question to know the truth, in contrast with you, just saying someone else said...

evilishan
January 12th, 2009, 10:56 PM
I believe in God, but i don't followed organized religion, i don't identify as being a (Christian/Jew/Muslim/Buddist)

Amachi
January 12th, 2009, 11:01 PM
This thread has no room for a debate, otherwise it'll turn into a mess. Please, if someone posts a reason for their belief, resist the urge to respond. I know this section is supposed to be for discussion, but this thread is nothing more than an over-glorified poll.

In other words, stop your discussion now.

Gold warehouse
January 13th, 2009, 08:10 AM
I don't believe in any religion or in God; Science and History has proved religion wrong countless times. My family aren't religous either so I never had religion forced upon me.

Kazukii
January 13th, 2009, 09:47 AM
This thread has no room for a debate, otherwise it'll turn into a mess. Please, if someone posts a reason for their belief, resist the urge to respond. I know this section is supposed to be for discussion, but this thread is nothing more than an over-glorified poll.

In other words, stop your discussion now.

I think as long as everyones open to other peoples feelings then theres no problem with it. Being unfair and rude about other peoples belief shouldn't be tolerated.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 13th, 2009, 12:33 PM
The Bible is the only ancient holy book that is completely historically accurate (except for the books that are written in a more metaphorical way) as well as having every book agree with one another, despite being a collaboration of many different author's works.

Everything has to happen for a reason and everyone has to have a purpose... at least that is what I believe.

Please, tell me that's a joke, right? Have you considered that maybe the bible agrees with itself because it was edited and bits were taken out (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls)? That's assuming that the bible doesn't contradict itself of course. Old testament God is vengeful and likes bringing down wrath. New testament God is merciful and likes forgiveness. That's a fairly large contradiction. Also, God outlaws murdering/killing, right? Ten commandmets stuff. However, as moses is coming down from mount Sinai (sp?) he sees people worshipping a calf statue and God orders them to be stoned. This is mere moments after he forbids killing. Its a bit of a "Do as I say, not as I do" kinda situation.

Wait, everything has to happen for a reason? May I ask how you know this? Is there some religious reason for me to eat food? Last time I checked, I eat when I'm hungry, not when God's plan says I should.

.Socks
January 13th, 2009, 01:34 PM
How does that answer my question? I asked how you explain the existence of energy, and you respond by saying that it doesn't have mass. Again, why does energy exist?

Now to respond to someone else.



That is the most flawed logic I've read in months. Is your reasoning honestly that God can't exist because horses might think that he's different from how we picture him? Think about that for a minute, you should find that it doesn't make any bit of sense.

I'm not responding to that, I'm just disproving your previous misconception on the Law of Mass. Nothing more. I don't see why that matters, it has no mass. I don't know why it exists, I can't recall; and I'm far too lazy to Google it, quite honestly.

I'm not out to prove you wrong, I just wanted to correct you on that.

I'll stop now, though. D:

Cassino
January 13th, 2009, 01:55 PM
I'm an apatheist. As Wikipedia puts it, an apatheist believes that the question of whether a god exists of not is not relevent to human life.
In other words: I don't care.

Assuming hypothetically that a god does exist though, he/she/it is clearly malevolent.

Gulpin
January 13th, 2009, 01:59 PM
Yes, because there really are some records that explain crucifixtion during the time of Jesus, and how can there be no God?

Somthing had to create that little thumbnail of mass that exploded and is now known as the Big Bang Theory. And Adam and Eve, and the Garden are just really a way to explain how the earth was created, not saying that it was created by God in the exact same way.

Starway
January 13th, 2009, 02:11 PM
I do believe, I mean I don't really believe that the world started because of the big bang and how else do all these miracles in are every day lives happen?

An-chan
January 13th, 2009, 02:41 PM
Now, I know we're not allowed to discuss anymore, but I went trough the trouble of writing this post and it best tells why I believe what I believe. So, I'm not debating or discussing, I'm just telling you about my beliefs while responding to few statements at the same time. Please, do not respond to me. I'm just justifying my beliefs here :P

Start your ignoring here! The rest is the post I cannot bare to delete even though I know I shouldn't post it.

By the way, I'm really happy FinalFlare went with actual reasoning and arguments rather than the empty arguments you often see when it comes to debate about religion.


The Kalam cosmological argument goes as follows:

1.) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2.) The universe began to exist.
3.) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

The first premise is pretty obvious. Things do not just pop into existence uncaused out of nothing. For every effect, there is a cause. This is constantly verified in our experience and never falsified.

This is thought a bit wrong here. Everything indeed exists for a cause, but that cause is the simple fact it popped into existence. You seem to think this in a way that "everything has to be made, and if something is made, it has to be made for some cause". This, however, is not true. Everything has a cause, as in everything is caused by something, but not everything serves a purpose. Also, not everything is made. It is very humane to think that everything has to serve a purpose, but it doesn't have to be that way. It's never verified except in our experience, but our experience is a very subjective matter and therefore isn't reliable. It has never been aqqurately verified that everything has a purpose.

The second premise I fully admit to be true, as well as your arguments for it. However, as the first premise cannot be proven, the conclusion is also a subject to doubt.

The moral argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
2.) Objective moral values and duties do exist.
3.) Therefore, God exists.

...

The second premise is the main point, and seems intuitively obvious to most people. Most people would agree that torturing babies is objectively wrong no matter what culture you live in. Most people would agree that burning a widow alive after the death of her husband is objectively wrong regardless of personal opinion. Most people believe that the holocaust was wrong, and would still be wrong even if the Nazis had won WWII and killed or brainwashed everyone who disagreed with them so that it was universally believed that is was right.

This, unfortunately, isn't true. It does seem intuitively obvious, but it isn't so regardless of what we might think. We intuitively think all other people have the same moral values as we do. For example, I often intuitively thought it was obvious that people wouldn't want to drink or smoke when they're underaged because it's illegal. As we all know, it really isn't so. Also, there are major cultural differencies. For example, in some countries only woman can be guilty of adultry and they don't think there's anything wrong with that. In other countries, they think that everything's wrong with a system like that. Now, isn't there a clear difference in moral values? Also, almost a fifth of Earth's population thinks killing a cow is as bad as killing a person. Still, four fifths disagree on this, some going to the extenct of slaughtering masses of sick cows so that no human can get their disease. Another huge difference in moral values.

However, I agree that there are some moral values that seem to be universal to all religions and seem intuitively wrong to all individuals, such as torturing babies. These values, however, are derived from our biological needs. The need to preserve our species has left its mark on our brain and thus we find it hard to hurt babies or small children. This is a feature universal to many other species as well.

Despite those universal moral values, there are no such things as all-objective moral values. Even some Christian communities have great differencies in their moral codes. Moral values are always taken from the society around you as well as your individual goals and are a subject of change for your whole lifetime.

The fine-tuning argument can be formulated as follows:

1.) The fine-tuning of the universe is the result of either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2.) It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3.) Therefore, it is due to design.

There are multiple physical constants that are incredibly fine-tuned (e.g., the electromagnetic interaction, the weak force, strong force, gravitation, the ratio of proton to electron mass, etc.) so that if they were slightly altered just one way or another, life could not exist.

...That's what the scientists presume. This is, however, where the beauty of science steps in. You see, science isn't predetermined. It's a subject to change at all times: whenever a new, more accurate and plausible explanation comes along, the old one is put aside and the new one accepted as the truth for the time being. Science knows it'll never reach the truth, but is still constantly trying to get closer to reality. We cannot know if scientists are really right about that stuff.

This fine-tuning could not just be by chance. For every one of these constants to just happen to be at the precise quantity at the same time so that life could exist is just ridiculously improbable.

Why couldn't it be? If you have a thousand dices, it's highly impropable that every single one of them will roll a six. However, it is possible, and might even happen when you try to do so. It might be ridiculously improbable, yes, but so is the chance that someone dies in a plane crash. Yet a lot of people still die in plane crashes. Saying that something is highly impropable and therefore not true is a bad argument.

Also, you missed one important way these things could have come to existence. Evolution. There's no doubt that living things evolve, as we've seen it happen during the course of history. Why couldn't other things evolve, too? We cannot understand something like that, for our life span is a bit short and we tend to think everything that lives does it our way. But viruses, for example, aren't living things, yet they still evolve. Nothing tells us that this is the only universe there is, or the first ever to be born. There are still a lot of mysteries that await us. If we just decide it was God who did it and then sit back contently because we've solved everything, we'll never accomplish anything again.

You can stop ingoring now.

The most important reason for the fact I'm not Christian is that I cannot believe into some unchanging set of rules. Why can't gay people get married? Why should we believe undoubtingly into something written more than two thousand years ago? Why doesn't christianity adapt its laws and moral codes to new information when it comes? Why doesn't anyone ever answer these questions?

I believe in science because it adapts to new information. It changes. It admits it was wrong and proceeds to find new information. Science is active, whereas christianity is passive. Science is moving forward, whereas christianity tries to stay in the past. That's why my faith lies in science. That's why I don't believe in God.

Yrie
January 13th, 2009, 06:20 PM
I don't know, honestly. I'm not religious, no one in my family is, really, but I like to think that there's someone/something out there, as in a celestial being. But I don't know.

ErickaVolt
January 14th, 2009, 04:07 AM
I don't believe someone or God created us. That would be too ridiculous. I only believe on Atheism... and science.

Deefie
January 14th, 2009, 04:37 AM
I don't really believe in a god, neither in Jesus. I think you can influence your life yourself, you don't need someone to tell you what to do.

dark_seeker
January 14th, 2009, 04:42 AM
i think there is a force driving this unvierse...man named it god,guess my answer is yes

Hurricano
January 14th, 2009, 06:51 AM
I don't believe in anyone saying how to live your life.

But I don't believe in the big bang either, so maybe there exists something of someone who created us.

Kazukii
January 14th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Quite an equal post tbh. Lots of people have different views which suprised me. I was expecting "Yes" to dominate =P

LethalTexture
January 14th, 2009, 11:21 PM
You'd be suprised. lots more people have been brought up on the teachings of science these days.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 15th, 2009, 09:34 AM
Saying that you don't believe in Jesus is pretty ignorant..You don't have to beleive that he did all that "water to wine" stuff but theres evidence that Jesus Christ existed. As for God as in "the father" long story short: Agnostic is the way to go. To me it seems pointless to state that you think God exists or he doesn't. Why not sit back and find out? ^_^ However i do know fine well that the world would never stop arguing over religion now..I doubt =P

LethalTexture
January 15th, 2009, 09:38 AM
We can't really sit back and find out because there's no way that we'll ever know one way or the other. And I actually do believe that Jesus Christ existed, but as you say, I doubt all the miracles he performed actually happened. If we're basing those things on what is stated in the bible, we can take it with a pinch of salt.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 15th, 2009, 09:41 AM
Lol fair enough i suppose Horizon ^__^ I did have some kind of theory as to why i am agnostic, but i've forgotten it XD I just think it's a more sensible option than arguing one point or another :P

And of course, i instantly agree with you on the bible. That book is a complilation of stories from over 40 different auteurs from that time, how can it be solidly believed? XD that's my opinion anyway

jasonresno
January 15th, 2009, 10:02 AM
Saying that you don't believe in Jesus is pretty ignorant..You don't have to beleive that he did all that "water to wine" stuff but theres evidence that Jesus Christ existed. As for God as in "the father" long story short: Agnostic is the way to go. To me it seems pointless to state that you think God exists or he doesn't. Why not sit back and find out? ^_^ However i do know fine well that the world would never stop arguing over religion now..I doubt =P

Because a true believer would never just "sit back and find out" because that goes against everything that religion is and--seeing as this is a Christian predominated thread--the bible tells us to do. You either believe in God and follow His word or you don't and it's that simple.

For me personally it would take a much larger suspension of disbelief to believe in something like the Big Bang.

So in short, yes, I am a Christian and a born again one at that.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 15th, 2009, 10:13 AM
Because a true believer would never just "sit back and find out" because that goes against everything that religion is and--seeing as this is a Christian predominated thread--the bible tells us to do. You either believe in God and follow His word or you don't and it's that simple.

For me personally it would take a much larger suspension of disbelief to believe in something like the Big Bang.

So in short, yes, I am a Christian and a born again one at that.

I understand what you mean, striving to find an answer as to what created our race is part of the complex of a humans natural curiosity. I lost my faith a long time ago, so i have no choice but to respect you for stating what you believe ^_^

But i really don't think faith is that simple at all. Faith in religion/anything is a state of mind, that is made very spiritual and real in everything we do, that's not a simple thing at all.

And for the record, i'm not a "true believer" because i am an agnostic.

When i said that, what i basically meant is that i'd rather listen to what other people have to say about it. Maybe one day somebody may say something that convinces me to either side, or an experience might happen in my life.

In the bible, God tells us that we have the freedom to either worship him, or ignore him. I try to do neither =P and just sit on the fence..for now XD

As for the big bang...where the people who theorized it (i.e stephen hawking) would even start theorizing and thinking of reason like the big bang is completely beyond me. :D

PS: How is this a christian pre-dominated thread? Ive seen plenty of atheists and theists alike state their views here..Correct me if i'm wrong though :D *sweatdrops*

jasonresno
January 15th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I understand what you mean, striving to find an answer as to what created our race is part of the complex of a humans natural curiosity. I lost my faith a long time ago, so i have no choice but to respect you for stating what you believe ^_^

But i really don't think faith is that simple at all. Faith in religion/anything is a state of mind, that is made very spiritual and real in everything we do, that's not a simple thing at all.

And for the record, i'm not a "true believer" because i am an agnostic.

When i said that, what i basically meant is that i'd rather listen to what other people have to say about it. Maybe one day somebody may say something that convinces me to either side, or an experience might happen in my life.

In the bible, God tells us that we have the freedom to either worship him, or ignore him. I try to do neither =P and just sit on the fence..for now XD

As for the big bang...where the people who theorized it (i.e stephen hawking) would even start theorizing and thinking of reason like the big bang is completely beyond me. :D

PS: How is this a christian pre-dominated thread? Ive seen plenty of atheists and theists alike state their views here..Correct me if i'm wrong though :D *sweatdrops*
No offense taken or meant. By Christian predominated I meant that most of the discussions involve Christ and God rather than Buddha or some other religion.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 15th, 2009, 10:35 AM
Lol good to know ^__^

Ah, so that's what you meant by christian pre-dominated..Thanks for pointing it out :D

Sadly nowadays i am quite indecisive about my faith...I persevere, though XD

Tokin
January 15th, 2009, 01:16 PM
I believe in a god, yes, but not the biblical kind of god, I don't believe god is an individual or someone who passes judgement, I believe god is a universal entity^^

Reck
January 15th, 2009, 01:23 PM
I believe in God simply because there must be someone who made us we did not just show up out of no where. I am aware of the big bang THEORY but how could nothingness have something in it? Kinda confusing eh! We weren't put here by accident y'know.

AuraAshley
January 15th, 2009, 01:24 PM
well i believe in god. but i dont. what i mean is, i dont understand how a single 'being' can exist without a form or forms. I dont understand how a single being can create the whole universe and everything thing on earth. What my thing is, god created every living thing, man animals etc.. But he says that man can go into heaven and that animals cant. IT confuses me on how Man can have souls and animals dont. And about jesus, thats a little iffy for me. Because logically it doesn't make sense on how a man can perform all these miracles and whatnot. Christianity is based upon this man but this man technically was a jew. so does that mean that the whole christian religion is actually just jewish. because if you think about it if jesus was a jew, does that me we (christians) are jews?
Next is the afterlife. Is there really any proof that we have an afterlife at all? whats to say that when we die, we just die and we just dont exist. That scares me for many reason. I just cant imagine not existing. i just cant imagine floating around in a huge while non existent area. get what im saying?
See what i truly believe in is this; i believe that theres a god. I believe that god is all mighty and creates your fate before you are born. I believe that when you are alive, you are actually just a living 'dream'; by this i mean we are all just dreams, just beings that are not real, that we are just the imagination of one god; that we dont exist. What i belive in next is this, that when we die, are given a choice; to either let our spirits stay on earth and wonder this planet for all of time OR choose to come back again, depending on how you were in your original life, as a human and relive a life. BUT for us to be reborn, we have to face good. we must approach him and explain our reasons for wanting to be reborn. What we should explain to god it this; the sins we have commited, the good deeds we have done in our lives, and tell him why he thinks we should be revived into another human again. if he agrees that we lived a life deserving of being reborn, then we are born again in the bod of another human baby, thus forgetting the life we have left(this step could take up to a day or ever thousands of years to happen), or if you've lived a bad life, god will revive you, but revive you in the body of an animal and you are given the task of having to prove yourself to god to be reborn as a human yet again. This is where past lives come in.
People say there are no such things as past lives, but then why do people get the images, or dreams, of places that they obviously dont know and obviosly havent been to before. So this leads to me saying, that we are just a reincarnation of a past life over and over again and that all of us have, technically, been alive since the begining of time.

=]

Reck
January 15th, 2009, 01:30 PM
well i believe in god. but i dont. what i mean is, i dont understand how a single 'being' can exist without a form or forms. I dont understand how a single being can create the whole universe and everything thing on earth. What my thing is, god created every living thing, man animals etc.. But he says that man can go into heaven and that animals cant. IT confuses me on how Man can have souls and animals dont. And about jesus, thats a little iffy for me. Because logically it doesn't make sense on how a man can perform all these miracles and whatnot. Christianity is based upon this man but this man technically was a jew. so does that mean that the whole christian religion is actually just jewish. because if you think about it if jesus was a jew, does that me we (christians) are jews?
Next is the afterlife. Is there really any proof that we have an afterlife at all? whats to say that when we die, we just die and we just dont exist. That scares me for many reason. I just cant imagine not existing. i just cant imagine floating around in a huge while non existent area. get what im saying?
See what i truly believe in is this; i believe that theres a god. I believe that god is all mighty and creates your fate before you are born. I believe that when you are alive, you are actually just a living 'dream'; by this i mean we are all just dreams, just beings that are not real, that we are just the imagination of one god; that we dont exist. What i belive in next is this, that when we die, are given a choice; to either let our spirits stay on earth and wonder this planet for all of time OR choose to come back again, depending on how you were in your original life, as a human and relive a life. BUT for us to be reborn, we have to face good. we must approach him and explain our reasons for wanting to be reborn. What we should explain to god it this; the sins we have commited, the good deeds we have done in our lives, and tell him why he thinks we should be revived into another human again. if he agrees that we lived a life deserving of being reborn, then we are born again in the bod of another human baby, thus forgetting the life we have left(this step could take up to a day or ever thousands of years to happen), or if you've lived a bad life, god will revive you, but revive you in the body of an animal and you are given the task of having to prove yourself to god to be reborn as a human yet again. This is where past lives come in.
People say there are no such things as past lives, but then why do people get the images, or dreams, of places that they obviously dont know and obviosly havent been to before. So this leads to me saying, that we are just a reincarnation of a past life over and over again and that all of us have, technically, been alive since the begining of time.

=]

Never thought of something like that but i believe you have a third choice going to heaven. Also if you have been evil you will go to hell. But an interesting way of thinking there AuraAshley. Never thought of it that way.

AuraAshley
January 15th, 2009, 01:33 PM
Never thought of something like that but i believe you have a third choice going to heaven. Also if you have been evil you will go to hell. But an interesting way of thinking there AuraAshley. Never thought of it that way.

ya a lot of people say that. i just dont belive that heaven can be our final stop. i belive theres more then just heaven like i explained

score_under
January 15th, 2009, 01:41 PM
"The Big Bang Theory"
Many non-believers believe it is the Big Bang theory that made us all.
Science doesn't explain how the Big Bang came about in the first place.

Nor does it explain how, so coincidentally, intelligent life managed to form. Sure, evolution. But where did the single-celled organisms come from?

AuraAshley
January 15th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Science doesn't explain how the Big Bang came about in the first place.

big bang theory could of happend. it is possible cuz there are explosions in space

Trap-Eds
January 15th, 2009, 03:45 PM
Do you believe in Jesus/God?

I dunno. I've been asking myself that question for the longest time........
I've been raised as a Protestant, but....religion is just so confusing for me now, that I've decided to not worry about it anymore till I'm pushing up daisies. :)

s0nido
January 15th, 2009, 03:49 PM
The Big Bang was obviously caused by something. What is that something? Could it be a God or a celestial being? That is why I believe the Big Bang theory and I also believe in God. They fit together.

jasonresno
January 15th, 2009, 07:27 PM
The Big Bang was obviously caused by something. What is that something? Could it be a God or a celestial being? That is why I believe the Big Bang theory and I also believe in God. They fit together.

But...that's madness!

The Big Bang has never made much sense to me. It takes as much "what if" and "maybe-ing" to make a theory like that work as it does to believe in God. And from a scientific standpoint I think God is just as likely as something as unlikely as the Big Bang.

icomeanon6
January 15th, 2009, 07:33 PM
But...that's madness!

The Big Bang has never made much sense to me. It takes as much "what if" and "maybe-ing" to make a theory like that work as it does to believe in God. And from a scientific standpoint I think God is just as likely as something as unlikely as the Big Bang.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Big Bang theory, it explains why the universe is constantly expanding. The problem is when people try to use the Big Bang as the reason for why matter exists, as opposed to using it to explain how celestial bodies were formed.

XxZer0xX
January 15th, 2009, 07:35 PM
Nope. Raised Protestant, but went with science on everything "God did"

jasonresno
January 15th, 2009, 07:39 PM
There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Big Bang theory, it explains why the universe is constantly expanding. The problem is when people try to use the Big Bang as the reason for why matter exists, as opposed to using it to explain how celestial bodies were formed.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it? It's perfect? Nah, the problem with the Big Bang theory is the same as every other theory.

Well, what started the Big Bang?

Something had to exist for the Big Bang to exist. And if something existed to kick start the Big Bang...well where did that come from?

And that's why I'm pretty confident we'll never be satisfied with a scientific answer. To each his own but claiming that the Big Bang theory has absolutely nothing wrong with it is a giiiggannttiiicc stretch.

Mario The World Champion
January 15th, 2009, 08:20 PM
I don't believe in God. It all stemmed from my youth when my Mom forced me to take CCD classes and made me go to church, so I could follow and do certain things. I hate having restrictions and because of that, I have a negative outlook on all religions.

Sure, you may find a sense of fulfillment, but I'd rather do things my way and not have some book or some dude say what I can and can't do.

icomeanon6
January 15th, 2009, 08:38 PM
I don't believe in God. It all stemmed from my youth when my Mom forced me to take CCD classes and made me go to church, so I could follow and do certain things. I hate having restrictions and because of that, I have a negative outlook on all religions.
I can see where you're coming from with CCD and going to church. I don't mind either of them, but it's obvious why lots of people have problems with them. I kind of wish that parents would be less forceful in how they involve their kids in religion, all it does is drive them away from religion. It just defeats the purpose of religion if you force it on someone.

Capt. Couch
January 15th, 2009, 08:47 PM
I myself, do not believe in God.

- The idea of the Big Bang theory in the creation of the universe is not a concrete fact: it is merely a theory. If such an event did occur however, this does not fully and completely prove the existence of God. The fact that something cannot be created from nothing lobbies in support of believers, but the idea of a god has existed for ages simply because the human race has desired a reason to explain why even the many natural wonders of today occur. We will never find a true scientific fact behind the creation of the universe, but we will never find true proof that God created the universe.

- Stories of creation, particularly those found in the Bible, have been passed down by word of mouth for thousands and thousands of years, meaning that even in terms of literature, the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is a collection of myths. At this point in time, we believe that ancient Greek legends are myths and is an example of the human race beginning to explain the natural phenomena of our world and universe through divine influence. During these times, these were widely accepted beliefs. In this day and age, we proclaim these to be false simply because we have proven that these are simply stories. However, are the common beliefs of most modern religions not the same?

- Though the basic ideas of Christianity are present in the Bible, the Bible was not put into a written form until recently in terms of human history. Therefore, the Bible is not a reliable source in terms of actual events. It has also been confirmed many times that the Bible has been altered and lost in translation, presenting the possibility of error. What one person believes is correct according to the Bible may be incorrect according to another person who also cites the Bible. There are also many forms of the Bible to reflect Protestant and Catholic beliefs in which even entire books have been removed. As mentioned before, what one believes is right may be wrong even according to a completely different revision.


I do believe that Jesus was as real as the keyboard I am typing with right now. However, I do believe certain things about him.

I believe that Jesus was a very highly intelligent man who knew much about the wonders of the world and applied them to use in his miracles. However, I do not believe that his miracles were influenced by supernatural means, but rather instead they were influenced by natural phenomena that people of the time did not completely understand. The blind man mentioned in the Bible may have had cataracts; the sick man may have had a disease that was easily treated. However, that does not mean he did not do such things. For doing such things, many believed that he was the Messiah, and would refuse to think otherwise. Therefore, he had to succumb to the idea that the people thought he was the Messiah based on the way he was celebrated at birth, for what Mary saw in an angel may have been a dream.

I do also believe that Jesus also died as a crucifix. We will never be able to truly tell if the man who emerged from the tomb truly was Jesus, however. It could very well have been a good look-alike. Doubting Thomas could support his argument.

It doesn't mean that I don't respect religion however... I am tired of atheists who bash religion, for the idea of morality was born with religion and most ideals that the law upholds are based off of ancient religious principles expanding past what we know today. But I don't particularly like believers who bash atheists for their beliefs. They bring themselves down to a cynical atheist's level.

In short, I am an atheist, but some Christian ideals, mostly regarding Jesus, I can synthesize with.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 16th, 2009, 03:54 AM
I myself, do not believe in God.

- The idea of the Big Bang theory in the creation of the universe is not a concrete fact: it is merely a theory. If such an event did occur however, this does not fully and completely prove the existence of God. The fact that something cannot be created from nothing lobbies in support of believers, but the idea of a god has existed for ages simply because the human race has desired a reason to explain why even the many natural wonders of today occur. We will never find a true scientific fact behind the creation of the universe, but we will never find true proof that God created the universe.

- Stories of creation, particularly those found in the Bible, have been passed down by word of mouth for thousands and thousands of years, meaning that even in terms of literature, the Bible, mostly the Old Testament, is a collection of myths. At this point in time, we believe that ancient Greek legends are myths and is an example of the human race beginning to explain the natural phenomena of our world and universe through divine influence. During these times, these were widely accepted beliefs. In this day and age, we proclaim these to be false simply because we have proven that these are simply stories. However, are the common beliefs of most modern religions not the same?

- Though the basic ideas of Christianity are present in the Bible, the Bible was not put into a written form until recently in terms of human history. Therefore, the Bible is not a reliable source in terms of actual events. It has also been confirmed many times that the Bible has been altered and lost in translation, presenting the possibility of error. What one person believes is correct according to the Bible may be incorrect according to another person who also cites the Bible. There are also many forms of the Bible to reflect Protestant and Catholic beliefs in which even entire books have been removed. As mentioned before, what one believes is right may be wrong even according to a completely different revision.


I do believe that Jesus was as real as the keyboard I am typing with right now. However, I do believe certain things about him.

I believe that Jesus was a very highly intelligent man who knew much about the wonders of the world and applied them to use in his miracles. However, I do not believe that his miracles were influenced by supernatural means, but rather instead they were influenced by natural phenomena that people of the time did not completely understand. The blind man mentioned in the Bible may have had cataracts; the sick man may have had a disease that was easily treated. However, that does not mean he did not do such things. For doing such things, many believed that he was the Messiah, and would refuse to think otherwise. Therefore, he had to succumb to the idea that the people thought he was the Messiah based on the way he was celebrated at birth, for what Mary saw in an angel may have been a dream.

I do also believe that Jesus also died as a crucifix. We will never be able to truly tell if the man who emerged from the tomb truly was Jesus, however. It could very well have been a good look-alike. Doubting Thomas could support his argument.

It doesn't mean that I don't respect religion however... I am tired of atheists who bash religion, for the idea of morality was born with religion and most ideals that the law upholds are based off of ancient religious principles expanding past what we know today. But I don't particularly like believers who bash atheists for their beliefs. They bring themselves down to a cynical atheist's level.

In short, I am an atheist, but some Christian ideals, mostly regarding Jesus, I can synthesize with.

An excellent post here...Gotta give it to you man ^_^ you've stated what you think on both sides of the argument, which was pretty sensible :P

True, the big bang is merely a theory, and should not be taken to heart. it is just a possible reason for the world being created. Mind you people, consider this: Some of you say the big bang couldn't have really happened because there might'nt have been anything to ignite the big bang.

What about God? think of him/her/it as a "Big Bang" of sorts. What created him? What "ignited" God? Of course, some people would say that God has always been there. Doesn't that make it just as likely that whatever started the big bang has always been there? See, when people talk about religion, we think God, Allah etc or the big bang. Don't people sometimes forget the possibility of it being something we can't even imagine?

Still, i'm not looking for an argument here. just think about it ^_^ I too am one of those people who, while not wholly religious, do respect and use the postive ideals that religion DOES give.

Kazukii
January 16th, 2009, 09:36 AM
I respect other people's views definatly. I'm just not sure about whever it's valid or not.

Lucy Lu
January 16th, 2009, 12:57 PM
Yes I do believe in God, so I am a Christian. But if you believe in something else, I won't force you to believe in something that you think it doesn't exist. I do think there is a God out there, and he is watching us. But that is what I think. Whatever you think is fine by me. I won't hold a grudge on you. That is the problem with society today. If don't believe what others believe you are a outcast. It shouldn't be like that at all. Everyone should have the right to believe of what they believe and keep like that with no confrontation. And don't force anyone! Forcing anyone is really bad as well.

Lily
January 16th, 2009, 04:31 PM
I believe in God. ^_^

All that's to be said.

Evilyn
January 16th, 2009, 04:41 PM
No, I'm not Christian and I'm not interested in religion in general. I don't believe in any supreme beings.

Artemis
January 16th, 2009, 10:23 PM
absolutely...but I also believe that we are reincarnated after our death...at least three days after...

Asmo-deus
January 16th, 2009, 10:49 PM
Yep. I'm a Catholic. So I was raised, and put into a Catholic school, and been thought about the word of god and such. Never going to be an atheist.

Blue_Drifblim
January 16th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Yep, I sure do. I'm a Christian.

s0nido
January 16th, 2009, 11:56 PM
People are arguing about the Christian view of God. You know, you can always look at Islam for a change. Then argue that to pieces. Try it, why don't you? There are many scientific facts in the Qur'an that were brought forward 1400 years ago. I'll show you some quotes here from the Qur'an Please don't use the internet for quotations unless you know what you are looking for.

Please read this website >>here<< (http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles2/scientific_miracles_of_Quran.htm). It's got all the evidence you need.

Now tell me that Allah doesn't exist.

Dukey
January 17th, 2009, 12:43 AM
I suppose I do. But I really wonder at times. And then I get all confused thinking about life's purpose and what not.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 17th, 2009, 02:55 AM
People are arguing about the Christian view of God. You know, you can always look at Islam for a change. Then argue that to pieces. Try it, why don't you? There are many scientific facts in the Qur'an that were brought forward 1400 years ago. I'll show you some quotes here from the Qur'an Please don't use the internet for quotations unless you know what you are looking for.

Please read this website >>here<< (http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles2/scientific_miracles_of_Quran.htm). It's got all the evidence you need.

Now tell me that Allah doesn't exist.

ALLAH DOESN'T EXIST

Lol i have to admit that article about the Qur'an is pretty interesting. ^_^

>Feelings<
January 17th, 2009, 05:56 AM
Yes, I believe that there is a god.
Think about it... someone must have created all these things around you.

Big bang, the first life, human mind, you name it! All of these must have been created by someone, isn't it? It's too good to have been done by itself. Besides, science isn't the right answer all the time. God can evade science, you know...

That said, I'm kind of athiest - only a bit. I still have belief about some aspects of religion. And no, I'm not Christian. Anyone thinking otherwise can happily argue with me till either of us are proven wrong. :)

s0nido
January 17th, 2009, 05:59 AM
ALLAH DOESN'T EXIST

Lol i have to admit that article about the Qur'an is pretty interesting. ^_^

Interesting? They're ground-breaking! These articles should be changing the face of the earth! But no one looks at the religion branded as the root of terrorism.

Nah, seriously, it's cool. At least you've had a look at them. I can't expect to change the world with a webpage, can I?

devilicious
January 17th, 2009, 06:03 AM
I don't believe in God. It's just all too nonsense and extraordinary for me to believe.

I do believe there was a man called Jesus, though. Afterall, we live in 2009 after Christ, so he must've did something. And by something I don't mean revive or some magical thing like that.

Gold warehouse
January 17th, 2009, 06:08 AM
Afterall, we live in 2009 after Christ, so he must've did something.

Actually the numbering of years in AD was thought up some 500 years after Christ supposedly existed; it just started being used after Christianity spread throughout Europe. I guess we will never really know if Christ existed or not.

devilicious
January 17th, 2009, 06:16 AM
Well, that changes a lot.

So yeah, that destroys my only evidence of him. Now I'll just continue to believe Jesus was an alien.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 17th, 2009, 06:25 AM
Interesting? They're ground-breaking! These articles should be changing the face of the earth! But no one looks at the religion branded as the root of terrorism.

Nah, seriously, it's cool. At least you've had a look at them. I can't expect to change the world with a webpage, can I?


Lol it'd be pretty extraordinary if you did ^_^

Sushi.
January 17th, 2009, 08:09 AM
I'm a Christian, and yes. I do believe in Jebus. 8D
Nuff said.

Working Class Hero
January 17th, 2009, 08:44 AM
Okay if I do not say this I am going to go into cardiac arrest.

1. Jesus is not god and no christians think he is. They think/claim to know he is the son of god.
2. Jesus has been proven to be a real person. The only debate is whether or not he is the son of god. It's like saying "Do you believe in a desk/god?"
3. I personally do not believe in god but I think there is a possibility of him existing. You can't say there is a god, and I can't say there isn't. No one knows if there is or isn't. And anyone who claims to is a moron on proportional scales.

^0^ Thank you.

Gold warehouse
January 17th, 2009, 09:10 AM
2. Jesus has been proven to be a real person.

Ehm? How? Evidence or linky please (Do not link me to a youtube video)

True Reign
January 17th, 2009, 09:20 AM
You didn't know that Jesus was a real person? Scientists and archaelogists have found evidence for this years ago. The only rason he was so hard to find out about was that Jesus was such a common name it is like Muhammad for today's standards. He also didn't have a last name - Men back then just took their first name and where they were from like Jesus did (his full name was Jesus of Narazeth).

Click. (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html)

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 17th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Yes, I believe that there is a god.
Think about it... someone must have created all these things around you.

Big bang, the first life, human mind, you name it! All of these must have been created by someone, isn't it? It's too good to have been done by itself. Besides, science isn't the right answer all the time. God can evade science, you know...


This is the 'Causation' Argument, right? everything must have a cause, so a chain of causes would be

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang

Now some people like to add:

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God

because they say that everything has a cause, including the big bang. But then you get this problem:

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God <----is caused by--- ?

What is the question mark? you can't say that the Big Bang needs a cause and then say that God doesn't need a cause - that's contradiction. The only other plausible answer is that we have an infinite chain of Gods, all creating each other. But that's just...silly...isn't it?

Just my two cents. What say you?

EDIT:

-;4287983']You didn't know that Jesus was a real person? Scientists and archaelogists have found evidence for this years ago. The only rason he was so hard to find out about was that Jesus was such a common name it is like Muhammad for today's standards. He also didn't have a last name - Men back then just took their first name and where they were from like Jesus did (his full name was Jesus of Narazeth).

Click. (http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/marshall_gauvin/did_jesus_really_live.html)

ummmm....

The Jesus Christ of the Gospels could not possibly have been a real person. Did you read this before you posted it? He is a combination of impossible elements. There may have lived in Palestine, nineteen centuries ago, a man whose name was Jesus, who went about doing good, who was followed by admiring associates, and who in the end met a violent death. 'May' being the important word... But of this possible person, not a line was written when he lived, and of his life and character the world of to-day knows absolutely nothing. So this goes against what you were saying....This Jesus, if he lived, was a man; and if he was a reformer, he was but one of many that have lived and died in every age of the world.

I don't mean to be rude, but this essay thing that you posted goes against what you said in your post. unless you were being sarcastic....

s0nido
January 17th, 2009, 03:00 PM
I think belief in God makes things much easier. I mean, we don't have to explore the mysteries of the universe and send people off.

And has anyone other than Nobel Tokyo (I can't be bothered using all those things in your name :P) clicked on my link, or are they going to continue to argue against Christianity? If not, Allah has won this battle, not 'God'.

Oh, and Allah clearly said that He was not caused by anything. He was infinite and has existed all the time. And He will never die. How can He be limited by his own creation of time? Here's the quote:
Say (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)): "He is Allah, (the) One.
"Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." 1-4:112

LethalTexture
January 17th, 2009, 03:06 PM
This is the 'Causation' Argument, right? everything must have a cause, so a chain of causes would be

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang

Now some people like to add:

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God

because they say that everything has a cause, including the big bang. But then you get this problem:

Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God <----is caused by--- ?

What is the question mark? you can't say that the Big Bang needs a cause and then say that God doesn't need a cause - that's contradiction. The only other plausible answer is that we have an infinite chain of Gods, all creating each other. But that's just...silly...isn't it?

Exactly what I've been trying to say. The Big Bang (if it happened) was a natural process, and was not created by anything. It just... happened.

matt561
January 17th, 2009, 03:07 PM
It's not that I don't believe or disbelieve in Jesus, or any other god or deity.

It's just that...I don't care. XD

Regardless of whether there is a god or not, I live my life according to my morals, and not according to anything Jesus may tell me to do. Though having said this, we're usually on the same wavelength. ^^
THiS

also you have to remember that the bible is now over 2000 years old people dident do anything all day and the world was very VERY different i just dont think you could take it seriously

s0nido
January 17th, 2009, 03:16 PM
Exactly what I've been trying to say. The Big Bang (if it happened) was a natural process, and was not created by anything. It just... happened.

Just 'happened', didn't it? Well, why can't you say the same thing about God? He probably just 'happened' as well. Maybe he was just another natural process as well. If you can say the same for everything else, why can't you say the same about God? No, everything nowadays, all the theories, have to be new. Once someone brings up God, people say 'No! That's what they thought millennia ago! We're living in the 21st century here! God is old news!'

When people say the universe 'just happened', they don't bother to understand what created it. How could a natural process occur from nothing? We've been saying that God can create things from nothing for years, and when we bring it up now against new theories, they say that its impossible. Tell me how the universe was created, then, if we leave out God.

Universe <--- Big Bang <--- ?

We still have that question mark. But you purposely omit that, branding the Big Bang as a natural occurrence. But God? No! He can't be a natural occurrence, can he? I think not.

True Reign
January 17th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Just 'happened', didn't it? Well, why can't you say the same thing about God? He probably just 'happened' as well. Maybe he was just another natural process as well. If you can say the same for everything else, why can't you say the same about God? No, everything nowadays, all the theories, have to be new. Once someone brings up God, people say 'No! That's what they thought millennia ago! We're living in the 21st century here! God is old news!'

When people say the universe 'just happened', they don't bother to understand what created it. How could a natural process occur from nothing? We've been saying that God can create things from nothing for years, and when we bring it up now against new theories, they say that its impossible. Tell me how the universe was created, then, if we leave out God.

Universe <--- Big Bang <--- ?

We still have that question mark. But you purposely omit that, branding the Big Bang as a natural occurrence. But God? No! He can't be a natural occurrence, can he? I think not.

I believe in God, but seriously how could a 'god' be created out of nothing? There is always going to be a natural process to something. I think I know what the ? means now.

? = Natural Process

Please don't reply to this post saying "and how could there be a natural process". Your just lying to yourself and know that some people in this world are actually right and your wrong.

Death_Mande
January 17th, 2009, 04:41 PM
Nope, never did, never will.

AuraAshley
January 17th, 2009, 05:43 PM
only problem w/ the jesus thing is that it defies the laws of science; you cannot come back from the dead

s0nido
January 17th, 2009, 07:52 PM
-;4288939']I believe in God, but seriously how could a 'god' be created out of nothing? There is always going to be a natural process to something. I think I know what the ? means now.

? = Natural Process

Please don't reply to this post saying "and how could there be a natural process". Your just lying to yourself and know that some people in this world are actually right and your wrong.

Seriously, though, how could there be a natural process? (And how could I be lying to myself?) Before the universe, there was nothing. No nature, no matter, just that infinitely small and infinitely dense bubble that exploded into the nothingness to create the universe. This was explained in the Qur'an in this verse:

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before We clove them asunder, and We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
(The Qur'an, 21:30)

The reference to the heavens and earth being joined together must refer to the small bubble of matter that exploded to form the universe. And, according to the Qur'an, Allah (referred to here as 'we') caused this to happen. What is more stunning is the fact that the Qur'an was revealed over 1400 years ago. There are many more scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and all you have to do is google 'scientific miracles of the quran' to find them. Remember to keep a translated copy of the Qur'an with you while doing these searches to confirm the verses that you see.

only problem w/ the jesus thing is that it defies the laws of science; you cannot come back from the dead

JESUS DIDN'T DIE!!! That was a lie created by the conference held over 320 years after Jesus to form the Christian Church and to control the people. Jesus was actually replaced by another man who was tracked down and killed in place of him, while Jesus was raised up to Paradise. We are waiting for him to come down again. Just you wait...

Apparently, he's going to break the cross and kill the swine in order to abolish the symbols of false Christianity. Then he's going to kill the False Messaiah, the last of the 30 liars that have existed throughout history. Sounds crazy? Let me explain...

According to the Prophet Muhammad, there will be 30 liars after his death. Each of them will claim to be a messenger of God, but they are lying, as the Qur'an clearly states in this verse that:
Muhammad is not the father of any male among you, but he is the messenger of God and the seal of the prophets; and God is aware of all things (33:40).

So, these 30 liars will say that they are messengers of God, and they will try to convince people to believe them. The last one will be the False Messiah. He will claim to be a messenger sent from God, and he will perform miracles like bringing people back from the dead and curing people from disease. These miracles are only a one-time thing, and when a brave believer faces the False Messaiah and asks him to do the miracles again, they won't work. At this point, Jesus is sent back down to Earth, and there's this big war that ends up in the death of the False Messaiah and Jesus being the king of the earth for 40 years.

You can get this in more detail by googling '10 major signs of the last day'.

Yeah, that's what I have to say.

True Reign
January 17th, 2009, 11:23 PM
Seriously, though, how could there be a natural process? (And how could I be lying to myself?) Before the universe, there was nothing. No nature, no matter, just that infinitely small and infinitely dense bubble that exploded into the nothingness to create the universe.

Exactly, Gaga. It was a small, extremely strong 'bubble' the size of a U.S. Quarter. It was natural to eventually explode with enough power to bring down the universe itself. It's as natural as sex, breathing, eating, moving, and thinking - Nothing more.

I actually think this even is an arguement anymore. Nature is what created everything and itself.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 18th, 2009, 01:19 AM
Look let me re-explain. I don't believe in the causation argument. I think that the chain does end with the big bang. The problem is that people use the causation argument to add God or Allah to the chain of causes, then say that he does not have a cause. This is contradiction.

Gold warehouse
January 18th, 2009, 01:21 AM
Religion has had the past 1000 odd years to prove itself; yet people are still questioning religion and there is still no solid proof. Science has come along and for the past 50 years has come up with plenty of evidence to support its claims; I'm sure in another 50 years we will know more about the big bang and the claims of religion will be a thing of the past.

LethalTexture
January 18th, 2009, 01:23 AM
Lord GaGa, when I say this remember that this is a debate. I have nothing against you in any way.

But if I'm honest, you are being very narrow minded about all this. When I bring forth my opinions, as you know I believe the Big Bang theory is correct. But I am at least considering the possibility of a higher being, but as I've said, I find it completely impossible.

You just need to broaden your horzions a little. I don't know, maybe it's the way you've been brought up to believe things. I myself was brought up through the teachings of both science and religion, but through my own research and what I've learned, I believe science is correct. Thus, the Big Bang (if it happened) was a natural process. And natural meaning that it happened by itself with no outside influences, which is the definition of natural.

Kazukii
January 18th, 2009, 01:48 AM
Lord GaGa, when I say this remember that this is a debate. I have nothing against you in any way.

But if I'm honest, you are being very narrow minded about all this. When I bring forth my opinions, as you know I believe the Big Bang theory is correct. But I am at least considering the possibility of a higher being, but as I've said, I find it completely impossible.

You just need to broaden your horzions a little. I don't know, maybe it's the way you've been brought up to believe things. I myself was brought up through the teachings of both science and religion, but through my own research and what I've learned, I believe science is correct. Thus, the Big Bang (if it happened) was a natural process. And natural meaning that it happened by itself with no outside influences, which is the definition of natural.

QFT - Quoted for truth

I believe in the big bang theory as well but I'm open to possibilities of a higher being/God.

s0nido
January 18th, 2009, 02:29 AM
Lord GaGa, when I say this remember that this is a debate. I have nothing against you in any way.

But if I'm honest, you are being very narrow minded about all this. When I bring forth my opinions, as you know I believe the Big Bang theory is correct. But I am at least considering the possibility of a higher being, but as I've said, I find it completely impossible.

You just need to broaden your horizons a little. I don't know, maybe it's the way you've been brought up to believe things. I myself was brought up through the teachings of both science and religion, but through my own research and what I've learned, I believe science is correct. Thus, the Big Bang (if it happened) was a natural process. And natural meaning that it happened by itself with no outside influences, which is the definition of natural.


I don't compromise when it comes to religion. My parents just told me I was a Muslim, and that was it. It was my choice to explore my religion and figure out its meanings. I had free rein over my internet trawls to discover what I wanted.

Now, why do people think that religion and science cannot be together? Did I say I didn' believe that the Big Bang occurred? I was just against the fact that it could've been just some natural process or that it could've just 'happened'. I believe that the universe was created by a higher intelligence that programmed and plotted the creation of the vast complexities of the universe. I call it Allah, other people have different names for it.

I just can't rest with the fact that the entire process of the creation of the universe was all a coincidence. A massive coincidence, was it? Was I put on this Earth because of chance? Does my life even have a meaning? When you deny the existence of God, you are just throwing away the meaning of life. We are the only intelligent beings on Earth, if not the entire universe, and we were put here by chance? I prefer to take comfort in believing that there is a reason for my existence, and that there is an afterlife waiting for me. I just want to know that I will be rewarded for my good deeds. It's really scary to think that you will die and turn to dust and never taste life again. It's just a horrible thought.

Whether the existence of God is true or not, it's helpful to know that there is someone watching you every step of the way, and that you will be rewarded or punished for whatever you do. Now most people say that they can do good things for themselves, and that they don't need to please a God to do things. But then that is where morals start to disappear. People start to justify their crimes and say that what they're doing is okay and normal. But I don't want to point out any people, so I'll just stop there.

Anyway, just remember that.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 18th, 2009, 04:34 AM
I prefer to take comfort in believing that there is a reason for my existence, and that there is an afterlife waiting for me. I just want to know that I will be rewarded for my good deeds. It's really scary to think that you will die and turn to dust and never taste life again. It's just a horrible thought.

Ok, I'm not trying to be mean, but this has to be said. You seem to be using God and religion as a security blanket. Just because you don't like the idea that we're alone in the universe, it doesn't make it wrong. Fear of death does not equate to life after death. Have you considered that if, hypothetically speaking, a person wrote the Bible or Koran, knowing it was a lie and deliberately added sections about living after death because they realised that people would want to believe it?

Religious texts always seem to offer that feeling of immortality and I find it a little coincidental that they all banish humanity's greatest fear - death.

The Post Count
January 18th, 2009, 05:44 AM
nope. If god existed, then so many innocent people wouldnt be killed by terrorists and as casualties where the US and etc. have tried to get high-profile targets >:

Kazukii
January 18th, 2009, 06:50 AM
nope. If god existed, then so many innocent people wouldnt be killed by terrorists and as casualties where the US and etc. have tried to get high-profile targets >:

That's an interesting and tbh a pretty tactless way of putting it.

Crystal Clair
January 18th, 2009, 09:19 AM
I believe in gods but not the Christian god.

So I voted "yes" because I don't want to look like no atheist. -_-

Careful With That Axe, Pichu!
January 18th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Haha, the big bang theory. It was supposed to happen again just a few months ago, but then... nothing.

Wow. Care elaborating on that? Sounds really interesting...


By the way, I'm what people call agnostic. As bad as it may sound, I really don't care whether side is right or not, nor where does it all come from. I just care about the now and the little I can do to make it better.

wakachamo
January 18th, 2009, 10:12 AM
I'm a Lightningism follower.

Careful With That Axe, Pichu!
January 18th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Scientists don't know what caused the Big Bang
But after all how could any of us be aware of what scientists know or don't know? It's even safe enough to assume we're all making statements in behalf of science based on what the media shows us? Such as assuming the big bang was supposed to have repeated months ago?

Trap-Eds
January 18th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God <----is caused by--- ?

What is the question mark? you can't say that the Big Bang needs a cause and then say that God doesn't need a cause - that's contradiction. The only other plausible answer is that we have an infinite chain of Gods, all creating each other. But that's just...silly...isn't it?

I couldn't have said that any better. That is one of the main reasons religion confuses me. And I wanna say something else, but....I think we might be at the risk of a war here.

JESUS DIDN'T DIE!!! That was a lie created by the conference held over 320 years after Jesus to form the Christian Church and to control the people. Jesus was actually replaced by another man who was tracked down and killed in place of him, while Jesus was raised up to Paradise. We are waiting for him to come down again. Just you wait...

Wow, that makes much more sense than what I've been taught: ressurection. [sp?]

bubblewrap
January 18th, 2009, 01:12 PM
I believe in God. Mainly because I was born and raised as a Catholic and go to a Catholic school.

Well, sometimes I wonder if God doesn't exist, or I have those thoughts about why I'm here and how the universe was made.

I seem to always have those thoughts on the toilet or on a long car drive. :P

Cascade'A Stupidity
January 18th, 2009, 01:14 PM
I don't believe in God, no, I believe in a higher force, however.

s0nido
January 18th, 2009, 01:18 PM
The Christian's theory on resurrection was basically the same thing as ours only Jesus died. Fine. No one has to believe me anyway. This thread will eventually degenerate into a war, and I don't intend to be in any part of it.

Besides, religion isn't all focused on God. The Prophet Muhammad said that he was brought down to perfect the best of manners. Perform good deeds and you'll go to Heaven, that's what I was taught. I wasn't dumped with everything to know about the authenticity of Islam and God. I explored them myself. And I found the evidence quite amazing.

Religion has had the past 1000 odd years to prove itself; yet people are still questioning religion and there is still no solid proof. Science has come along and for the past 50 years has come up with plenty of evidence to support its claims; I'm sure in another 50 years we will know more about the big bang and the claims of religion will be a thing of the past.

Did you people even bother to click on the link to look at my article? If you didn't, I'll show it to you now. And I think religion has already proven itself. Atheists say they don't believe in God so they can be free of guilt for whatever they do. If you think a God is watching you, you'll be less likely to commit a crime.

Religion has proven itself already. Do you honestly believe that everything around you was not created by something? Can't there be some higher being responsible for the creation of the universe? Why is it so impossible to believe that? That causation argument, when there is the Big Bang at the end of the chain everyone agrees, but when God is at the end of the chain everyone is suddenly skeptical. Why isn't it possible for a God to exist? Is he 'old news'? Just because there are all these new theories coming in, it doesn't mean we can throw God out of the window.

You people have thought endlessly to find evidence to back up your claims that God never existed, but you have never bothered to look at the evidence that he does exist.

Now here's the link, and I want everyone to click it and read what it says. Don't read the first word and say 'Oh my eyes!' Just read it. Feel free to post your own links, then we can come back and start arguing again, but with knowledge.

Kazukii
January 19th, 2009, 09:02 AM
I'm actually quite suprised at how theoretical some of these replies have been ^_^

Merzbau
January 19th, 2009, 09:57 AM
Universe <-----is caused by----the big bang <----is caused by---- God <----is caused by--- ?

What is the question mark? you can't say that the Big Bang needs a cause and then say that God doesn't need a cause - that's contradiction. The only other plausible answer is that we have an infinite chain of Gods, all creating each other. But that's just...silly...isn't it?

Sure seems silly. I sure wouldn't believe in that for a minute.

Or maybe it's just tortoises all the way down. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down)

Zennerick
January 19th, 2009, 03:12 PM
No offence to anybody religious, but it is physically impossible for God to exist. The world and the Universe were created by the Big Bang and life came to Earth on meteorites and comets; scientific evidence confirms this. I also don't like the way the Bible tells lies; the Adam and Eve story cannot possibly be true; they had two sons and one of them killed the other as far as I know. How did the human race expand? We evolved from primates; again, scientific evidence confirms this.


Besides Eve, the New Testimant didn't mention females.
Which doesn't make any sense at all.

Wow. Care elaborating on that? Sounds really interesting...
I think he may be refering to the Large Hadron Collider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider#Expected_results). You know, that machine that was made to "recreate conditions that existed immediately after the Big Bang" and led people to think that a giant Black Hole would suck up the Earth.

Netto Azure
January 19th, 2009, 03:50 PM
Wow this is something. This thread has lived longer than the California Proposition 8 (Ban on Gay Marriage) thread.

I'll say it again I believe that the bible and the church is speaking metaphorically on things and that it was limited to the thinking of the times. But it is still the truth. =P Somehow I believe both in Science and the Catholic Church. ^_^

Gold warehouse
January 20th, 2009, 07:38 AM
Religion has proven itself already. Do you honestly believe that everything around you was not created by something? Can't there be some higher being responsible for the creation of the universe? Why is it so impossible to believe that? That causation argument, when there is the Big Bang at the end of the chain everyone agrees, but when God is at the end of the chain everyone is suddenly skeptical. Why isn't it possible for a God to exist? Is he 'old news'? Just because there are all these new theories coming in, it doesn't mean we can throw God out of the window.

That's not evidence, it's a theory; you cannot deny that there is no solid proof or evidence to say that a god exists.

Now here's the link, and I want everyone to click it and read what it says. Don't read the first word and say 'Oh my eyes!' Just read it. Feel free to post your own links, then we can come back and start arguing again, but with knowledge.
I didn't see a link in that post?

jasonresno
January 20th, 2009, 11:35 AM
That's not evidence, it's a theory; you cannot deny that there is no solid proof or evidence to say that a god exists.


I didn't see a link in that post?

Well every scientific "proof" that God doesn't exist is just an elaborate theory validated by like minded individuals. Somehow the word "science" get's slapped on and a proportion of the masses believe it as truth.

No, like I said before I don't think anyone will ever find the origin of our existence through science simply because someone will always come along with a better or more interesting theory and that theory will be clung to until it can pass off to the next one. Whether right or wrong in your/our eyes, I do believe that the only people who will ever be confident in what "started" everything are those in the religious category.

And a quick jab at another post. I can't remember the user but the content was "The Big Bang just naturally happened.".

How can that argument be made? By making that argument you are insisting that something has always existed forever. So, in order for the Big Bang to naturally happen...something had to have already existed to kick start what was going to kick start the rest of existence? How does that work?

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 20th, 2009, 12:00 PM
It's true that it seems to be one big new scientific theorem after another, but i do not like to treat science or religion as two creeds, where one dominates the other (jasonresno, you already know i'm agnostic XD) To me, science and religion are simply the two sides of the scale; The balance of thinking realistically, and living in a world where we look deeper into touch, taste, and why things are, while still maintaining some sort of faith, for before and after we die. Why should science and religion overrule one another? Just my point of view, which may seem garbled (i had a hard time trying to put it into words XD)

jasonresno
January 20th, 2009, 12:03 PM
It's true that it seems to be one big new scientific theorem after another, but i do not like to treat science or religion as two creeds, where one dominates the other (jasonresno, you already know i'm agnostic XD) To me, science and religion are simply the two sides of the scale; The balance of thinking realistically, and living in a world where we look deeper into touch, taste, and why things are, while still maintaining some sort of faith, for before and after we die. Why should science and religion overrule one another? Just my point of view, which may seem garbled (i had a hard time trying to put it into words XD)

No, man, that's wonderful. I don't think science necessarily has to be on the other side of the ring in terms of religion.

NoBel_ToKYo ™
January 20th, 2009, 12:10 PM
Lol ^__^

Maybe it's not so much about whether it's religion or science that is more likely. Maybe BOTH fill each others gaps, you know what i mean? I feel more at ease thinking of that.

Kazukii
January 20th, 2009, 12:24 PM
I'm glad that In my R.S lessons at school, I'm not bullied/intimidated/forced into christianity. My class and my teacher respect my views that I share with a select few.

s0nido
January 20th, 2009, 02:23 PM
Here's the link. Click it. (http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles2/scientific_miracles_of_Quran.htm)

Now tell me God doesn't exist. By the way, the Qur'an was revealed over 14 centuries ago, while the facts in it were only discovered recently. And I think this thread is just going endlessly into discussion and argument...

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 20th, 2009, 02:48 PM
y'know, I don't have time to point out everything that's wrong with that link. So I'll just do one quote:

While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.


"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

Unfortunately, most people actually thought the sun moved in an orbit, they just thought it orbited the earth, not Vega. And the Koran does not actually appear to say what the sun is orbiting.

s0nido
January 21st, 2009, 02:09 AM
y'know, I don't have time to point out everything that's wrong with that link. So I'll just do one quote:

While referring to the Sun and the Moon in the Qur'an, it is emphasized that each moves in a definite orbit.


"It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They swim along, each in an orbit. "
(The Qur'an, 21:33)

Unfortunately, most people actually thought the sun moved in an orbit, they just thought it orbited the earth, not Vega. And the Koran does not actually appear to say what the sun is orbiting.

It's a book to reveal laws to the Muslims, not a science book. It doesn't need to clarify everything, as it was designed for a different purpose. Can you point out a book released at the same time by a Non-Muslim which points out scientific laws?

Now, the point of religion is to obey a higher deity and do whatever it tells you. Allah, the deity of Islam, commands people to embrace good and reject evil. Is there anything wrong with that? Why be an atheist or reject God? Why can't you have belief in God and just do whatever is right? Are you lazy to pray five times a day? Are you too lazy to read the Qur'an once in a while? Please...

Now for some more quotes from this webpage:
The Layers of the Atmosphere

One fact about the universe revealed in the verses of the Qur'an is that the sky is made up of seven layers.
"It is He Who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things."
(The Qur'an, 2:29)
"Then He turned to heaven when it was smoke. In two days He determined them as seven heavens and revealed, in every heaven, its own mandate."
(The Qur'an, 41:12)
The word "heavens", which appears in many verses in the Qur'an, is used to refer to the sky above the Earth, as well as the entire universe. Given this meaning of the word, it is seen that the Earth's sky, or the atmosphere, is made up of seven layers.


There are seven layers of the atmosphere, and this fact was proven just recently. But the Qur'an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago, had these facts inside it. These facts of science were to prove to the later generations of the existence of God, yet you people don't seem to see the evidence laying before you. You just ignore the evidence and say there is no evidence that God exists. Hello??? The evidence is right here (http://www.geocities.com/islamimiracles2/scientific_miracles_of_Quran.htm)!

Now, 'I laugh at your misfortune'. Did you fail to read the verse written after the verse you quoted about the orbits? It went:
"By the sky full of paths and orbits."
(The Qur'an, 51:7)


Everyone at the time said that the stars only orbited the Earth, not each other. The Qur'an, however, actually presents the fact that there are numerous orbits of stars and planets, and once again, these facts were proved nearly 14 centuries later.

And you say there's no God.

Ivysaur
January 21st, 2009, 04:53 AM
Uh, if god's main word is "embracing good and rejecting evil", well, I guess we can do it to make all the people around us happy, not to make a god I'll never see while I'm alive happy. That's my thought.

And yeah, praying five times a day or reading a very long sacred book can get very boring if you don't fully believe in your god, with your heart. If you don't, being forced to can turn you to the completely other side.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 21st, 2009, 10:41 AM
So you defend these facts, saying that it isn't a science book, then point out that it supposedly makes scientific claims which have been recently proven? That's kinda...inconsistent. And to be honest, I'd rather you didn't make random insults calling me lazy. My atheism is due to me being rational and reasonable, not due to me not wanting to pray.

Now...

"The sky full of paths and orbits" does not mention what the stars and planets are orbiting, yet again. So that doesn't say that they were orbiting each other either. It just says they were orbiting.

"He determined them as seven heavens" I seem to have missed the word 'layers' in that quote...wait, it actually wasn't in the Qu'uran? But that essay claimed that the Koran siad that there were seven layers of the atmosphere, didn't it?

And no, I don't say there's no God. I say there's probably no God.

s0nido
January 21st, 2009, 01:00 PM
The Qur'an isn't a book of science. It is there to prove the existence of God to non-believers and to strengthen the faith of those that do believe.
"He determined them as seven heavens" I seem to have missed the word 'layers' in that quote...wait, it actually wasn't in the Qu'ran? But that essay claimed that the Koran said that there were seven layers of the atmosphere, didn't it?
The Qur'an doesn't actually say 'layers'. It uses the word 'heavens' instead. So it still refers to the layers of the atmosphere as heavens.

Now, I explained before that acknowledging the existence of God prevents us from doing evil and promoting good. If there were no policemen in the world, I think that everyone would keep commiting crimes. There would be no one to arrest them and there would be a chaotic mess throughout the world. The same thing goes for encouraging good. People always expect rewards for things, whether it be praise or something material. If a pet was lost, the owner would put a reward up so people would rush to get the pet and claim the reward.

The same thing goes for belief in God. People believe in God because they want the eward and want to avoid punishment. I think it would be safer to believe in a God and see what will happen after death. It couldn't be coincidence that we are the only intelligent beings on Earth. We must have been put here for a reason, and religion gives us a reason to live.

salmence33
January 21st, 2009, 01:53 PM
of coarse I believe in god. What else would create the universe.
If you d'on't beleive then read a bible 7 times and you will believe.
Let christ be with you.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 21st, 2009, 02:14 PM
But...the essay claims that the Koran says that the sky has seven layers. It say that there are seven heavens.

heaven =/= layer

Also, regarding your point about policemen - yes crime would increase, but I don't believe chaos would rule. In my opinion, people are essentialy good and generally do the right thing without needing to be bribed by the promise of eternal life.

Finally, I don't think its a good idea to say 'You might as well believe in God because that way you'll be safe when you die'. That makes your belief seem a little...cheap.

1stGenNut
January 22nd, 2009, 06:04 AM
Oh definitely, I believe in God, Jesus, reading the Bible really refreshes my inner being too.

s0nido
January 22nd, 2009, 01:19 PM
But...the essay claims that the Koran says that the sky has seven layers. It say that there are seven heavens.

heaven =/= layer

Also, regarding your point about policemen - yes crime would increase, but I don't believe chaos would rule. In my opinion, people are essentialy good and generally do the right thing without needing to be bribed by the promise of eternal life.

Finally, I don't think its a good idea to say 'You might as well believe in God because that way you'll be safe when you die'. That makes your belief seem a little...cheap.

Excuse me? I believe in God because I want to be comforted when I die. I want to have reason on Earth. What do you think your purpose on Earth is? To live? Like one of those stray cats in the back alleys? They live life very well. So do other animals. Do you think it is really sheer coincidence that we were put on Earth s intelligent beings? We are the only creatures on Earth to build structures, to use speech, to live together in organised societies, and to have a useful, thinking brain. Do you think it is just sheer coincidence?

I believe in God and science. I follow my religion and I study the world around me. My knowledge of religion can be backed up by science. I believe science and religion are not opposites. Anyone can be a scientist and follow a religion. So why do you treat science as a weapon against religion? They could easily work together to explain the world around us.

Now, about your quote from the Qur'an. Are you prattling on about it because it was the only one you could find a problem with? There is no error in the Qur'an. Everything in the Qur'an is helpful to humans, and the world would be a lot better if everyone followed its laws. At least the part about morals, anyway.

Which brings me to the topic of the policemen. Policemen can't stop you from commiting pre-marital or extra-marital affairs, can they? It's all a moral decision whether someone wants to cheat on their virginity or their partner. Is that controlled by the police in the West? Without police, there would be chaos. Chaos would rule, except for those who have a belief that someone is watching them. I'm not being bribed. I'm a Muslim because I know that I'm being watched by something higher and more powerful than me. And I think everyone should acknowledge the fact that they are being watched too. Maybe it would take the level of ego down a flight.

sims796
January 22nd, 2009, 08:51 PM
Ugh.

I tried people, I really did, but 8 pages were just TL;DR.

Now, as for my opinion? Yes, I believe. I feel it foolish not to believe in something. Creationism, Reincarnation, polytheistic, monotheistc, something. Just because you can't prove it, doesn't mean it isn't so. Science is only something that humans made for themselves to try & make sense of the world. Face it. Personally, unless it can be used, built upon, & improved, I don't care for that 'science'. How can I be sure that I, as a feeble minded human, can have all the answers? We know elements as copper & zinc because we gave it that name. How can we be sure it isn't really zaeperwongirz & flooferdoodles? Cause there aren't any records? Bah.

That said, I am interested in the advancements of science thus far. I can respect those beliefs because I really, really like the whole "if I can't touch it, it isn't real" thought pattern. That is a solid set of morals, that leads to a strong, if not unflexible, thought process.


It's true that it seems to be one big new scientific theorem after another, but i do not like to treat science or religion as two creeds, where one dominates the other (jasonresno, you already know i'm agnostic XD) To me, science and religion are simply the two sides of the scale; The balance of thinking realistically, and living in a world where we look deeper into touch, taste, and why things are, while still maintaining some sort of faith, for before and after we die. Why should science and religion overrule one another? Just my point of view, which may seem garbled (i had a hard time trying to put it into words XD)

God, I agree. As they said in South Park, "Couldn't it be the answer to how religion started & not if religion started"?

Sorry for the stupid, preachy, TL;DR post, but you will read it, & you will like it.

.inLOVE
January 22nd, 2009, 08:55 PM
As a Christian, in fact, I do.

Editman
January 22nd, 2009, 09:08 PM
I believe in Jesus Christ as Our lord and savior.

However I dont knock anyone's beliefs

s0nido
January 23rd, 2009, 02:56 AM
Erm...what happened to the debate? Or have I proven myself? Does God exist? If we hav confirmed that he does, then we can move on to another topic. In another thread, of course.

Kazukii
January 23rd, 2009, 09:08 AM
Erm...what happened to the debate? Or have I proven myself? Does God exist? If we hav confirmed that he does, then we can move on to another topic. In another thread, of course.

You havn't proved anything. There's no way to prove that God is real. Neither is there any way to prove the BBT is correct.

Soul Eater
January 23rd, 2009, 09:52 AM
I was baptised as a catholic, originally but I consider myself as being agnostic. I really can't say god/jesus doesn't exist. I see him differently than what most people would. It's hard to explain because I really don't want to create any tension.

I do believe in angels and stuff. My grandfather is my guardian angel and I can really say that I believe in that sort of thing.

I also believe in having miracles because they have definitly happened to me before. So I know there is a god out there but I won't say I believe him in like other people to but...yeah. D:

Also, I have to say that how is it possible that we were created by adam and eve? That's only saying that everyone is an ancestor of Adam and Eve and that's impossible because that wouldnt make much sense, now would it? That's the only proof I can say to back up claims saying that god created adam and eve and then populated the earth.

With the claims for Adam and Eve, we would end up being each other's brother and sister. Does that really make sense at all?

The sceintific methods make better sense because whether we evolved from fish, monkeys or some other creature, we evolved from something that populated the world, mated as man and woman and then soon enough here we are.

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 10:04 AM
I was baptised as a catholic, originally but I consider myself as being agnostic. I really can't say god/jesus doesn't exist. I see him differently than what most people would. It's hard to explain because I really don't want to create any tension.

I do believe in angels and stuff. My grandfather is my guardian angel and I can really say that I believe in that sort of thing.

I also believe in having miracles because they have definitly happened to me before. So I know there is a god out there but I won't say I believe him in like other people to but...yeah. D:

Also, I have to say that how is it possible that we were created by adam and eve? That's only saying that everyone is an ancestor of Adam and Eve and that's impossible because that wouldnt make much sense, now would it? That's the only proof I can say to back up claims saying that god created adam and eve and then populated the earth.

With the claims for Adam and Eve, we would end up being each other's brother and sister. Does that really make sense at all?

The sceintific methods make better sense because whether we evolved from fish, monkeys or some other creature, we evolved from something that populated the world, mated as man and woman and then soon enough here we are.

It makes more sense were are descendants of fish than of Gods people? :insert headscratching smiley:

Gold warehouse
January 23rd, 2009, 11:48 AM
It makes more sense were are descendants of fish than of Gods people? :insert headscratching smiley:

How would Adam and Eve survive amongst dinosaurs? We have proof of dinosaurs so you can't say they don't exist.

Angela
January 23rd, 2009, 12:08 PM
You havn't proved anything. There's no way to prove that God is real. Neither is there any way to prove the BBT is correct.
I don't think anyone should be trying to prove anything, everyone knows deep in their heart that the BBT is more likely then a God.
How would Adam and Eve survive amongst dinosaurs? We have proof of dinosaurs so you can't say they don't exist.
Hah! read the bible, the dinosaurs were dead when Adam and Eve were alive:D.

And like I said in another thread, Adam and Eve's grandchildren would have been retarded because the gens would be to similar.

Gold warehouse
January 23rd, 2009, 12:15 PM
Hah! read the bible, the dinosaurs were dead when Adam and Eve were alive

I thought god created the earth then put Adam and Eve on it? So now he put dinosaurs on Earth on the 5th day and then killed them all on the 6th because he messed up and replaced them with humans?

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 12:18 PM
How would Adam and Eve survive amongst dinosaurs? We have proof of dinosaurs so you can't say they don't exist.

Well, biblically, if God intended for Adam and Eve to be killed by dinosaurs--they would have. He clearly didn't , so they weren't "eaten by dinosaurs".

Gold warehouse
January 23rd, 2009, 12:29 PM
Well, biblically, if God intended for Adam and Eve to be killed by dinosaurs--they would have. He clearly didn't , so they weren't "eaten by dinosaurs".

Lol @ edit =P

So Adam & Eve lived alongside Dinosaurs? Then what killed the Dinosaurs out and left Humans still alive? I just find it hard to believe that Dinosaurs and Humans were living alongside each other.

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 12:30 PM
Lol @ edit =P

So Adam & Eve lived alongside Dinosaurs? Then what killed the Dinosaurs out and left Humans still alive? I just find it hard to believe that Dinosaurs and Humans were living alongside each other.

You asked me to be more clear?
I'm not allowed to double post.
An edit would be in order.

Right?

Gold warehouse
January 23rd, 2009, 12:32 PM
The lol was directed at the "eaten by dinosaurs" part, I'm not loling at you making an edit.

kissing. raindrops
January 23rd, 2009, 12:33 PM
I.. don't really know if I believe in God. My family doesn't, I don't go to church, or anything like that. I guess I do a little bit.

wolf
January 23rd, 2009, 12:36 PM
Didn't the world start with Adam and Eve, then Eve and then Adam ate the apple. Then, the Garden was destroyed, and all started with the dinosaurs.

Candy Christina
January 23rd, 2009, 12:37 PM
I always thought dinosaurs came before Adam and Eve did. Wow, this is really confusing. =/

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 12:46 PM
I am officially withdrawing from this argument/debate.

It's going to ultimately come down to you and you're on thoughts and ideas. That's all there is to it. No internet debate squad is going to get anyone to change their minds.

Gold warehouse
January 23rd, 2009, 12:48 PM
It dosn't really have a definitive explanation about the Dinosaurs; just like science dosn't have any explanation on what caused the Big Bang; both sides have their flaws but one thing about science is that it depends on technology which advances as time progresses. Whereas religion on the other hand is more dependant on history so it actually becomes harder to prove as time goes on; which is why I really can't see religion being able to prove anything more than it already has in the future.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
January 23rd, 2009, 12:51 PM
Erm...what happened to the debate? Or have I proven myself? Does God exist? If we hav confirmed that he does, then we can move on to another topic. In another thread, of course.

Sorry, I didn't realise there was a time limit on my responses.

Anyway....

Excuse me? I believe in God because I want to be comforted when I die. I want to have reason on Earth. What do you think your purpose on Earth is? To live? Like one of those stray cats in the back alleys? They live life very well. So do other animals. Do you think it is really sheer coincidence that we were put on Earth as intelligent beings? We are the only creatures on Earth to build structures, to use speech, to live together in organised societies, and to have a useful, thinking brain. Do you think it is just sheer coincidence?

Why do you have a problem with my belief that it is a coincidence? A small chance is not the same as no chance. After all, if a hypothetical man buys a lottery ticket, he has a minute chance of winning. But that doesn't mean he can't win. Besides, there are theoretically billions of planets out there. The chance that one would develop intelligent life has to be pretty decent.

So why do you treat science as a weapon against religion? They could easily work together to explain the world around us.

I...dont'. I know they could theoretically work together, but in my opinion, they don't. If your beliefs are different, that's fine by me.

Now, about your quote from the Qur'an. Are you prattling on about it because it was the only one you could find a problem with? There is no error in the Qur'an. Everything in the Qur'an is helpful to humans, and the world would be a lot better if everyone followed its laws. At least the part about morals, anyway.

You mean the heavens/layers quote? I was 'prattling on' about it because you brought it up. And I'm not saying that there is error in the Koran, I'm just saying that the essay you linked to might not have interpreted it correctly.

As for your last point...I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I think people are mostly decent, whereas you believe that people need religion to guide them. That's just a difference of opinion.

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 12:51 PM
It dosn't really have a definitive explanation about the Dinosaurs; just like science dosn't have any explanation on what caused the Big Bang; both sides have their flaws but one thing about science is that it depends on technology which advances as time progresses. Whereas religion on the other hand is more dependant on history so it actually becomes harder to prove as time goes on; which is why I really can't see religion being able to prove anything more than it already has in the future.

That's exactly the thing. If you want to follow God you don't need to know anything else other than what's already out there. It's hard for me to put into words what it's like to follow God to someone that isn't spiritual. That's not supposed to be an insult or sound rude or anything. For those that do lean towards religion nothing is more powerful and more emotional than being strong in your faith. And being religious in a continually scientific world is very hard because, like Angela, there are people that just can't be respectful.

edit: To LordGaGa, no offense, but you are making those that are religious look bad. You need to pony up and just respect other people.

processr
January 23rd, 2009, 12:56 PM
I don't think anyone should be trying to prove anything, everyone knows deep in their heart that the BBT is more likely then a God.

Ha, I lol'd.

But seriously, how can you make a generalising, unsupported and potentially insulting statement such as this? Because last I checked there were quite a lot of people who believed in a religion, and more still who are unsure over their beliefs. People have faith in their beliefs, and many believe in the creation myths of their respective religions. How can you suggest that people inherently believe in the Big Bang theory?

jasonresno
January 23rd, 2009, 01:05 PM
Ha, I lol'd.

But seriously, how can you make a generalising, unsupported and potentially insulting statement such as this? Because last I checked there were quite a lot of people who believed in a religion, and more still who are unsure over their beliefs. People have faith in their beliefs, and many believe in the creation myths of their respective religions. How can you suggest that people inherently believe in the Big Bang theory?

Because it's the nature of the uninformed/impolite user to do so. I hope I'm not out of line when I say this but Angela has turned a potentially informal debate more mean spirited than it needs to be.

Amachi
January 23rd, 2009, 04:35 PM
Yeah I'm sick of this thread. I don't know why I let you all roam off-topic like this for so long.

locked