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View Full Version : Great Anti- HM Slave Idea


WisherWisherWish
April 27th, 2009, 10:43 AM
Who hates HM moves?
I DO!
I NEVER use them for my team, but of course, I need HM Slaves to help me.
But here's what I think they should do i nfuture Pokemon Games

Cut- There's no need to cut scrubs unless they're in your way. Leave scrubs out.
Fly: Make a train of airplane that you can use to get to each city easy and fast.
Surf: Same thing as Fly, but use a boat.
Strength: Let the player be able to move the boulders by him/ herself.
Defog: Leave the fog out.
RockSmash: Leave the rocks out.
Waterfall: Um, let the boat go up waterfalls.
Rock Climb: let the player climb the rocks by him/ herself.

Just some ideas from your truly.

Åzurε
April 27th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Some of those are pretty good ideas, but some of them are atmospheric, like the fog, boulders and trees. I agree having them in the middle of what is supposed to be a well used path is kinda stupid, but off to the sides is okay. the Waterfall at the e4 is kind of a gate thing. Sorta something to show you can actually deal with what's ahead. I'd keep that. One more... there couldn't be an airplane in some towns, like in the starting areas and obscure places like Celestic Town. Flying works like that.

"Shadow Lugia"
April 27th, 2009, 11:17 AM
I agree with all but Surf and Waterfall. Those are both really good moves, and it helps that you can use them infinitely.

I Laugh at your Misfortune!
April 27th, 2009, 11:17 AM
I think items would be a good idea for some of these...like an axe or something to hack through the shrubs...a hammer to smash the rocks...a surfboard to cross water.

Cheesymitten
April 27th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Strengt-
Humans may not actually be able to shift these boulders, soooo.
Yea that's why there's strenght
However i agree wih all the rest ^_^

Opposite Day
April 27th, 2009, 11:36 AM
At least that would mean that no swimmers would get pissed at me for riding my Pokemon...
What if your character is really afraid of water? I mean, that would explain the "NO SWIM" thingy that has been bothering me for the past few.. years.

Kaori
April 27th, 2009, 11:41 AM
I don't agree with any of the ideas. xD

These things are there to make the game harder, and if we didn't have those HM's and had it easy-going, it wouldn't be as much fun to me. :\

Nitrous Oxide
April 27th, 2009, 11:45 AM
I don't agree with any of the ideas. xD

These things are there to make the game harder, and if we didn't have those HM's and had it easy-going, it wouldn't be as much fun to me. :\
So pressing A a grand total of one more time makes the game harder?

You need to play Battletoads.

HMs --> Key Items works better for some things, but Surf and Fly should be kept the way they are.

Kaori
April 27th, 2009, 11:48 AM
Well that is not what I meant. xD

What I meant was that if we didn't get those HM's, we would be able to cross over to Canalave City, go to the Galactic Hideout without using cut, etc. without beating the gym leaders and that's why the HM's are for a purpose. :)

It wouldn't be a purposeful game if that happened. :\

manomow
April 27th, 2009, 12:14 PM
I agree with ~Morning Bliss~.

Gymnotide
April 27th, 2009, 12:19 PM
Well that is not what I meant. xD

What I meant was that if we didn't get those HM's from the Gym leaders, we would be able to cross over to Canalave City, go to the Galactic Hideout without using cut from Gardenia etc.

It wouldn't be as much fun if we could do all that. :\

Not "not as much fun." HMs are implemented into the game as checkpoints. Notice how after beating a Gym, you get another HM? That's purposeful.

Of course, they could have made Rock Climb a tad bit more useful in battle...

The Scientist
April 27th, 2009, 01:00 PM
There's no need to cut scrubs unless they're in your way. Leave scrubs out.

Did anyone else notice this? Because I lol'd heartily.

Mitchman
April 27th, 2009, 01:07 PM
Well I do not want a space to be taken up by a move for progressing in the game but at the same time I do not want my Zelda with gloves to move boulders and an axe or something to cut down shrubs or a hammer to smash rocks to mix with my Pokemon my lovable creatures that are there to help you through the journey fighting or getting you through obstacles. Now if HM's became say special abilities for Pokemon that you may choose one to obtain when visiting a Gym Leader yes otherwise nope as I said I don't want my Zelda in my Pokemon.

Lana.
April 27th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Of course, they could have made Rock Climb a tad bit more useful in battle...

...Like making it a Rock-type move, for example? xDD
Anyways, I think the checkpoints can be done in a proper way. Such as other people are suggesting, replace them with key items. Get them out of our move slots (and leave Surf be, please.)

Cassino
April 27th, 2009, 02:16 PM
I think items would be a good idea for some of these...like an axe or something to hack through the shrubs...a hammer to smash the rocks...a surfboard to cross water.
A ten year old with an axe, a sledgehammer and surfboard.... Well first off it takes some strength and/or skill to use any of those.

You need to play Battletoads.
XD

Did anyone else notice this? Because I lol'd heartily.
Notice what, the word scrub? Scrub is low plants — bushes, small trees, tall grass et ceatera.

.FoX.
April 27th, 2009, 03:57 PM
In my opinion, I think HM moves should be able to be forgotten like any other move when the pokemon learns a new attack. Why can't they be forgotten unless you go to the move deleter anyway? Because if you make your pokemon forget the move you could be stuck? (for example, Make the pokemon forget surf when your in the middle of a deserted islan) Well, this isn't a real problem because HM moves never run out. If you make your pokemon forget the move, just teach it to him again; your HMs wont run out. SO, there is no point in having HMs that cant be forgotten normally.

I think pokemon with HMs should be kept in the game. Forget substituting fly for a train, or surf with a boat. Interacting with the pokemon is a key part of pokemon games; HMs add to that experience. Just imagine, wouldn't you prefer to ride on the back of a pokemon instead of taking a boat? Which is more pokemon interaction oriented? HMs should stay, but they should be forgetable, just like any other move.

bobandbill
April 27th, 2009, 04:26 PM
In my opinion, I think HM moves should be able to be forgotten like any other move when the pokemon learns a new attack. Why can't they be forgotten unless you go to the move deleter anyway? Because if you make your pokemon forget the move you could be stuck? (for example, Make the pokemon forget surf when your in the middle of a deserted islan) Well, this isn't a real problem because HM moves never run out. If you make your pokemon forget the move, just teach it to him again; your HMs wont run out. SO, there is no point in having HMs that cant be forgotten normally. One problem with that is that if you are in such a place, and can easily delete HM moves like so - what if for whatever reason the player releases that Pokemon? Unlikely, yes, but that could end up with them stuck on an unsurfable island or so forth (especially if they didn't have any of the fishing rods either). They like to ensure that there is no way to have people stuck forever in a spot (look at the extents that they go to so that hackers won't explode the game, such as the ???-sprite of Arceus which outside of hax isn't possible), so I don't see them going against it in future games - although I agree that it would be nice to have them deletable.

HMs can be annoying at times, but I don't seem them going, nor that bad a thing either. They are, as mentioned before, used as checkpoint stuff - beat a gym, get the ability to use an HM! Many places though have barriers so that you can't get to them before you're meant to - some including stuff like Cut-able trees, or Boulders, etc. Some also allow for the classic puzzles they have, such as the Strength puzzles they have in games (such as Ice Path in GSC).

Besides, this is Pokemon, a game which you are some kid who uses Pokemon, not 'young-weightlifter-with-planes-and-strange-creatures' - if you can do all the stuff to get from point A to B, then what is the point of Pokemon and Gyms then, if they enable you to pass obstacles? And if one has to replace stuff with, say, replacing Fly with planes or trains or whatnot, or this:
Waterfall: Um, let the boat go up waterfalls.
...yeah, HMs win out, IMO.

Vail
April 27th, 2009, 05:03 PM
Well, I think it's annoying that you have to waste a spot on your Pokemon's movesets just so you can proceed in the game, or find an extra Elixir. But the solution isn't to get rid of the obstacles; they should just make the HM moves stronger so you don't feel like your Pokemon only has 2 or three useful attacks. xD

Ninja Caterpie
April 27th, 2009, 08:38 PM
Wow, totally great.

So how do you expect the boat to work? We make a good game stupidly easy (because swimmers aren't going to climb a boat to fight you) and no wild Pokémon either, and lose one of the best (if not THE) best water move in existance. S-m-r-a-t.

As bobandbill said, it's a Pokémon game where you are a normal ten-year-old kid, not Chuck Norris. Noone's going to be pushing boulders the size of themselves. >:|

The solution is not removal, it's upgrades. Like the one above said, increase their potential.

Nnoitra Jiruga
April 27th, 2009, 08:45 PM
I don't think the player's manly enough to move rocks. x DD -lol-
Nice ideas for boats and stuff though : P

Gymnotide
April 27th, 2009, 08:54 PM
Hell, I would think that Strength would be able to do lots of things.

You could DESTROY shrubbery instead of chopping it down.
You could use raw strength to OBLITERATE (and of course, move) rocks.
You could use strength to ANNIHILATE rocky walls to make a ramp for which you to climb.
You could use strength to CATAPULT yourself into the air and hope you land in the right location. Screw flying.

And my favorite...
You could use strength to create a shock wave through the ground in order to shatter the earth underneath and create a trench, thereby sucking in all the water, making Surf and Waterfall completely useless.

I'd also imagine that if you were really strong, you could create a strong thunderclap that causes gale force winds to erupt from the surroundings in order to clear fog. Actually, hell, you could use that wind to blow away trees and rocks.

Wyyrlokk
April 27th, 2009, 09:09 PM
I don't agree with any of the ideas. xD

These things are there to make the game harder, and if we didn't have those HM's and had it easy-going, it wouldn't be as much fun to me. :\


I think the same way. If you would leave out these things, it would be more then easy to go everywhere you want to, without have to win the right Badge before. That wouldn´t be a challenge anymore.

Besides, as it was mentioned, Surf and Cascade are really good and useful moves, so it wouldn´t be a good idea to take them out of the games.

Inkfingers
April 27th, 2009, 09:13 PM
They should make HM's TM's and make TM'ss removable, instead of having to go to a move deleter. It may take a little longer to do but it'd be better. But I like the idea of a self sufficient trainer. Surf could be swimming. Their are swimmers as trainers.

Gymnotide
April 27th, 2009, 09:17 PM
They should make HM's TM's and make TM'ss removable, instead of having to go to a move deleter. It may take a little longer to do but it'd be better. But I like the idea of a self sufficient trainer. Surf could be swimming. Their are swimmers as trainers.

The reason why HMs are HMs and not TMs are because they are vital to gameplay.
The reason why they are multiple use is because you will need them to beat the game. The reason why they cannot be deleted regularly is because then you will be unable to leave certain dungeons which you absolutely need Rock Smash or Surf, etc. to get in or out. If they were TMs and you accidentally deleted it, then you would potentially get stuck in a cave for the rest of the game and you will have no choice but to use Escape Ropes or restart your game file.

joehat
April 27th, 2009, 09:29 PM
I guess my thing is...

You can only have six Pokemon in your party. IMO there should be no more than six HM moves. It's so frustrating when leveling up your Pokemon and you get to an attack you really want to learn, but can't because of an HM move. Not only that, I hate when certain Pokemon can't learn certain HM's that (IMO of course) they should be able to learn. Yanmega for instance..a giant six foot long dragonfly..yet it can't learn the HM for Fly? Come on..I was so happy when I saw that Flash was a TM in gen 4. Then I discovered...DEFOG!

Just for the sake of it, after beating the elite 4 in Platinum I've basically been travelling around with 2 HM Pokemon and leave the others for whatever I'm currently training.

Bibarel - Surf, Strength, Waterfall, Rock Climb
Tropius - Cut, Fly, Defog, Rock Smash

They work pretty darn well if you ask me haha. Not to mention they're none too shabby in battle either.

Anyway, like I said, six Pokemon = six HM's. I honestly don't mind teaching HM's to my Pokemon, since it makes it kind of realistic..but when a move like Defog is an HM, it's just pushing the term.

Roxasabridged
April 28th, 2009, 11:12 AM
Some ugrades are definately in order...

Cut - either increase its power to 80+ or make it lower enemy defence.

Fly - good as it is.

Surf - good as it is.

Strengh - maybe increase to 100+...

Defog - At least make it lower evasion by 2 levels...

Rock Smash - either double the base power or make it lower defence by 2 stages...

Waterfall - Looks okay as it is...

Rock Climb - doesn't look to bad...

Gymnotide
April 28th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Some ugrades are definately in order...

Cut - either increase its power to 80+ or make it lower enemy defence.

Fly - good as it is.

Surf - good as it is.

Strengh - maybe increase to 100+...

Defog - At least make it lower evasion by 2 levels...

Rock Smash - either double the base power or make it lower defence by 2 stages...

Waterfall - Looks okay as it is...

Rock Climb - doesn't look to bad...

Cut power increase is something I could go for.
Fly sucks as it is.
Surf is great.
Return > Strength still, even so.
Lowering Evasion does nothing, even if by two levels. I think it should remove Safeguard, Mist, Wish, Tailwind, and other turn-effects that only affect the enemy (not Stealth Rock, or Spikes on your side)... Though I have heard that Defog removes Spikes from your enemy's side of the field already lol.
50% chance to lower Defense is already hell powerful. I say 60 power is the highest I would go, but that would even be pushing it. I also chose 60 because my Ambipom really likes Rock Smash lol.
Waterfall is not just okay. It is amazing.
Rock Climb has too little accuracy, bad proc chance, bad effect, and low power. Completely outclassed by Body Slam and the more common Return.

Superjub
April 28th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I dont agree with the 'it makes the game harder' comment, but c'mon, can you imagine Pokemon without HM's? I mean, we've had them since day 1, and they are used so you actually have to catch other Pokemon. It also adds to the fact you have to find them as well, to advance through the game, beat the gyms (well, at least not just for the badges and TM's. :P) among other things. You get access to more water Pokemon, makes it so you cant just go through the area straight away etc. and taking away HM's and replacing them with items just would kind of ruin that aspect. :\

joehat
April 28th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Some ugrades are definately in order...

Cut - either increase its power to 80+ or make it lower enemy defence.

Fly - good as it is.

Surf - good as it is.

Strengh - maybe increase to 100+...

Defog - At least make it lower evasion by 2 levels...

Rock Smash - either double the base power or make it lower defence by 2 stages...

Waterfall - Looks okay as it is...

Rock Climb - doesn't look to bad...

My opinion on this is:

Cut - I don't agree with increasing the power. I like Cut between Scratch and Slash. Maybe give it a high critical hit ratio? Slash already has that covered though..

Fly - Good power, just sucks that it's a two part move.

Surf - Great as it is.

Strength - Upping it's power would just make it like a normal type Cross Chop. I think Strength would be better at causing confusion than Rock Climb.

Defog - I have confidence that this will no longer be an HM next generation haha.

Rock Smash - If you raise its power then you just have another Karate Chop or Brick Break.

Waterfall - Fine how it is IMO.

Rock Climb - I like this move and I've never really had any problems with its accuracy. It just seems like a more powerful Strength though.


Also, Rock Climb, Strength, and Cut are all normal type moves. IMO I like Rock Climb as a Ground type move, Strength as a fighting type move (it's described as a punch, and we already have a normal type Mega Punch) and Cut..eh. I don't know about that one, maybe grass or just keep it normal. Just some ideas.

Roxasabridged
April 29th, 2009, 06:14 AM
Cut power increase is something I could go for.
Yeah, i'm pretty tired of travelling long routes, then having to make my way back because I forgot the slave that knows cut.

Fly sucks as it is.
How so? I think it's great, barring the occasional miss.

Surf is great.
True.

Return > Strength still, even so.
Can't remember what return is... Is that the damage>switch attack?

Lowering Evasion does nothing, even if by two levels. I think it should remove Safeguard, Mist, Wish, Tailwind, and other turn-effects that only affect the enemy (not Stealth Rock, or Spikes on your side)... Though I have heard that Defog removes Spikes from your enemy's side of the field already lol.
Well, it could help against Double Team spammers...

50% chance to lower Defense is already hell powerful. I say 60 power is the highest I would go, but that would even be pushing it. I also chose 60 because my Ambipom really likes Rock Smash lol.
Meh, an attack that is capable of obliterating rocks, yet being weak as hell isn't all that impressive to me...

Waterfall is not just okay. It is amazing.
I wouldn't know, I haven't really used it properly in a team.

Rock Climb has too little accuracy, bad proc chance, bad effect, and low power. Completely outclassed by Body Slam and the more common Return.
85 Accuracy isn't terrible, just a mild annoyance, confusion isn't bad unless you're unlucky, and doesn't it have 90 base power?

Gymnotide
April 29th, 2009, 09:39 AM
Yeah, i'm pretty tired of travelling long routes, then having to make my way back because I forgot the slave that knows cut.


How so? I think it's great, barring the occasional miss.


True.


Can't remember what return is... Is that the damage>switch attack?


Well, it could help against Double Team spammers...


Meh, an attack that is capable of obliterating rocks, yet being weak as hell isn't all that impressive to me...


I wouldn't know, I haven't really used it properly in a team.


85 Accuracy isn't terrible, just a mild annoyance, confusion isn't bad unless you're unlucky, and doesn't it have 90 base power?

Return is the move that powers up depending on how friendly your Pokemon is. The maximum power is 102 and its accuracy is 100%. It is a physical attack and has 20 PP. It outclasses Strength in every way and outclasses Rock Climb in both power and accuracy. Body Slam also outclasses Rock Climb because of its higher proc chance and reliability.

Double Team spammers aren't really that widely used, especially in competitive play. Still, packing a sure-hit move or Foresight would be a much better option. In fact, if Defog worked more like Foresight, Odor Sleuth, or Miracle Eye, it would be more useful than it is now.

Waterfall is one of the most powerful physical water attacks, with 100% accuracy and 80 base power. It's markedly more reliable than its relative, Aqua Tail, who not all Pokemon can learn anyway. That being said, it's the widespread alternative for Surf for Pokemon like Gyarados and Swampert. It has a 20% chance to flinch, so that is really good too.

WisherWisherWish
April 29th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Lol, thx for the great ideas guys!

Mike20PR
May 8th, 2009, 10:35 AM
i usually teach one HM to each of my team to have all 6 with me (cept whirlpool, and waterfall where i have to switch but its rare to use it do it doesnt bother me) and when im done with the league, i go to the move deleter to get rid of them

Dextrose
May 8th, 2009, 11:30 AM
I never understood why we couldn't just climb over rocks. o.O
Same with ledges.

Benadryl
May 8th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Well that is not what I meant. xD

What I meant was that if we didn't get those HM's, we would be able to cross over to Canalave City, go to the Galactic Hideout without using cut, etc. without beating the gym leaders and that's why the HM's are for a purpose. :)

It wouldn't be a purposeful game if that happened. :\
Yeah, I agree, like, using HMs is much more important than battling trainers. They could have made puzzles without the use of HMs, youknow. Want to block places you can't enter the first time you pass? "Hello, I'm a guard, and I'm not going to let you in without Badge X. Go away."

Elite Champion
May 8th, 2009, 01:04 PM
We know the reasons why HM pokemon can not be migrated because of the dessert island thing....

zerwey
May 8th, 2009, 01:13 PM
I think items would be a good idea for some of these...like an axe or something to hack through the shrubs...a hammer to smash the rocks...a surfboard to cross water.

That's the greatest idea I've heard of.



Strength: Let the player be able to move the boulders by him/ herself.

Rock Climb: let the player climb the rocks by him/ herself.



You forgot...they are ten year olds.