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Melody
November 23rd, 2009, 09:22 PM
I was thinking that we users should be able to undelete VMs, so we don't have to use the moderation tool and trigger an unnecessary staff alert. I was trying to hide, but save a VM, and someone mistakenly deleted it.

Kishijoten
November 23rd, 2009, 09:55 PM
Um, I don't know. Wouldn't most user's abuse this idea?. I mean they can just delete a VM for no reason too you know. I don't think it be such a good idea- allowing ALL memebers to do this?. In my opinion that wouldn't be the best choice.

Ausaudriel
November 24th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Um... wait, huh? I don't understand what you're saying. o.O

Melody
November 24th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Um, I don't know. Wouldn't most user's abuse this idea?. I mean they can just delete a VM for no reason too you know. I don't think it be such a good idea- allowing ALL members to do this?. In my opinion that wouldn't be the best choice.

Um what? How is this abusable? It's not abusable really. Users can already delete VMs posted to their own profiles, we should equally be able to undelete VMs posted to our profiles.

I say this because moderating VMs tends to cause unnecessary alerts on the staff end, and you don't always want a VM to be gone for good.

That being said, Staff members can see VMs which are deleted if they want to. Currently we're only allowed to soft-delete them, which takes them out of public view. (doesn't remove them permanently.

Allow all users to specifically undelete VMs. This would essentially prevent anyone from posting something flaming in a VM then immediately deleting it afterward.

.Seth
November 24th, 2009, 04:36 AM
So, what you're saying is...that you want to be able to hard-delete VM's?

øbliteration
November 24th, 2009, 05:13 AM
But if someone deletes a VM, then they want it deleted for a reason.

Also unnecessary staff alerts? What does that even mean? Does staff get an alert when someone deletes a VM?

Ineffable~
November 24th, 2009, 05:49 AM
I think he's saying he wants the ability to manage a visitor message after he soft deletes it. If you soft delete something while a moderator, you have the option to view the post, undelete it, or remove it (hard delete). He wants this feature so that it can be soft deleted (by a member who has permission already to do so), and the option to view the post afterwards is available for the member who deleted it. The "unnecessary staff alert" comes when you delete a visitor message and have to ask a staff member in order to undelete or view it again.


I like this idea personally. d(' 'd)

Avey
November 24th, 2009, 06:10 AM
Or how about you think things through before deleting something?

parallelzero
November 24th, 2009, 09:16 AM
Um what? How is this abusable? It's not abusable really. Users can already delete VMs posted to their own profiles, we should equally be able to undelete VMs posted to our profiles.

I say this because moderating VMs tends to cause unnecessary alerts on the staff end, and you don't always want a VM to be gone for good.

That being said, Staff members can see VMs which are deleted if they want to. Currently we're only allowed to soft-delete them, which takes them out of public view. (doesn't remove them permanently.

Allow all users to specifically undelete VMs. This would essentially prevent anyone from posting something flaming in a VM then immediately deleting it afterward.

I'm still not convinced that there's enough justification as to why giving you the ability to undermine a deleted VM would be a good idea. If a member deleted their VM on your profile, they probably had a pretty good reason to. If they flamed you, then maybe the regret doing it so they just removed it. And, if you know its there, a staff member can always check it for you.

It's not like the VMs are being hard deleted, so I don't see why this is something that should be considered.

Patchisou Yutohru
November 24th, 2009, 10:13 AM
That being said, Staff members can see VMs which are deleted if they want to. Currently we're only allowed to soft-delete them, which takes them out of public view. (doesn't remove them permanently.
Let me just specify and state that even moderators can't hard-delete visitor messages from profiles (their own or anyone else's for that matter), so gaining the ability to heard-delete visitor messages (even if that's not something you're suggesting along with being able to undelete visitor messages) just is entirely unlikely to happen.

Allow all users to specifically undelete VMs. This would essentially prevent anyone from posting something flaming in a VM then immediately deleting it afterward.

Though David already asked this, he has a good point. People say a lot of things that they don't necessarily mean in the heat of the moment. One minute, of course, when they're mad, they'll say something they later regret. For example to suite this suggestion, someone may flame you in a visitor message while you're offline and you log in to find that someone deleted a visitor message from your profile. Hypothetically speaking, you want to see what they said, so you undelete the message and read it. Growing enraged at what they're saying, you take it upon yourself to continue the argument or feed the flame that's already been put out for whatever reason.

Sure, you realize someone deleted that out of most likely feeling guilty, but after reading what they said about you in your public profile, you certainly want to take it upon yourself to confront them about what they had to say and only cause more problems that would have been caused if you just left it be.

I don't think members should be allowed to undelete messages previously deleted on their profile just because someone may have flamed you in a VM and you want to view but can't because they most likely regretted saying whatever it is they said in the first place. Sounds like the little drama queen in you is interested in causing something, if you ask me, which I know it most likely isn't, but still.

Sure, the message may be on your profile and may be directed at you, but it isn't yours to delete unless you feel insulted or something by it; in which case, you should delete the message, then contact a staff member for something to happen (most likely due to disrespect or something along those lines). With that said, I don't think members should even be able to delete visitor messages in the first place, but I really don't care either way because its nice to be able to remove something from your profile that you may not want there without relying on someone else to do it for you because that can make you feel tedious and bothersome.

Melody
November 24th, 2009, 03:48 PM
Actually, All of you are assuming incorrectly when I say I want hard deletion powers or viewing deleted VM powers. I was alluding specifically to undeleting VMs that are soft-deleted from your profile by yourself only.

As it is, you can see deleted messages, but can't see the message, but I was looking for a way to undelete VMs you deleted. putting moderation (as in checking it and clicking unapprove in the drop down menu) to hide a VM from normal view backfires, because it generates an alert on the staff end.

Sounds like the little drama queen in you is interested in causing something, if you ask me, which I know it most likely isn't, but still.

That's not the reason I'm asking for this I assure you. I am asking for this because unapproving a VM generates a notification for staff.

Patchisou Yutohru
November 24th, 2009, 04:00 PM
Having the ability to undelete messages you deleted doesn't sound very bad. I wouldn't mind this happening; after all, sometimes you may delete something and wish you hadn't for whatever reason.

Undeleting messages other members delete, however, I am against.

parallelzero
November 24th, 2009, 04:14 PM
I'd be okay with that, but on the topic of your reasoning... if you explain it like you have, then your argument that had to do with flaming has absolutely nothing to do with this. You aren't going to delete your own flaming VM, and then want to undelete it later. And what's this about "staff alert"? What does it matter if we notice something? Oo

An issue I can also see with this is that if someone posts an offensive VM on their own profile, and a staff member deletes it, then they can just go ahead and undelete it. And "nobody posts on their own profile" is a useless argument. I see it all the time. XD

Ineffable~
November 24th, 2009, 08:35 PM
Actually, All of you are assuming incorrectly when I say I want hard deletion powers or viewing deleted VM powers. I was alluding specifically to undeleting VMs that are soft-deleted from your profile by yourself only. I'm the only one that understood you. :o
'Kay anyway:

An issue I can also see with this is that if someone posts an offensive VM on their own profile, and a staff member deletes it, then they can just go ahead and undelete it. And "nobody posts on their own profile" is a useless argument. I see it all the time. XD
Could that not be remedied by giving moderators power to hard delete visitor messages? Moderators can hard delete just about anything else. D: And like he said, this would only grant ability for the member to manage a message he deleted himself, not those deleted by others. ;3

Amachi
November 24th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Because no one has mentioned it here and my friend isn't going to post it here (I must credit him for bringing it to my attention), so I'll post it here myself.

Straight up, it's a dumb idea. Why? Because giving anyone the power to undelete any message on their profile means that they would have the power to edit any message on their profile i.e. giving you the equivalent of staff access. Furthermore, VMs don't leave an edit history.

I don't think anyone wants their VMs messed with. Would you? I know that isn't your intention, but implementing your suggestion would allow for editing.

I'm not entirely sure that this is correct though, but I'm pretty sure it is. Even if the whole editing part can be worked around, it wouldn't be worth the hassle, and you should be more careful in the future.

Melody
November 24th, 2009, 11:38 PM
I'd be okay with that, but on the topic of your reasoning... if you explain it like you have, then your argument that had to do with flaming has absolutely nothing to do with this. You aren't going to delete your own flaming VM, and then want to undelete it later. And what's this about "staff alert"? What does it matter if we notice something? Oo

An issue I can also see with this is that if someone posts an offensive VM on their own profile, and a staff member deletes it, then they can just go ahead and undelete it. And "nobody posts on their own profile" is a useless argument. I see it all the time. XD

Agreed. I do post VMs on my own profile from time to time. I can certainly see how it's a concern. I am uncertain about how granular vB allows admins to get as far as permissions go on VMs, so I'm only speculating on certain things. My concern was, if someone decided to hide all their VMs. (as in unapprove all of them so they don't show publicly)

I spoke a little bit to Rukario about it via IRC, when two VMs were mistakenly deleted from my profile by a member of staff, and he made it obvious that there were certain rules in place, that had not been clearly communicated to all members of staff. (I am not certain that a policy has even been formally agreed upon, so I can sort of understand that it was probably an honest mistake) The way he spoke, he said that if someone unapproved VMs, it was assumed that if you wanted to keep 'em, that you shouldn't apply the unapprove action to them, or they may be purged when the staff is sweeping for such things. The VMs in question I didn't consider extremely important, but I'm still trying to establish what the procedure is if you want to simply hide them. (Are you formally saying that you can either delete them or live with it? Or are we going to suggest that users ought to use the 'unapprove' moderation tool to put them out of view without worrying about staff purging them, or what?)

Because no one has mentioned it here and my friend isn't going to post it here (I must credit him for bringing it to my attention), so I'll post it here myself.

Straight up, it's a dumb idea. Why? Because giving anyone the power to undelete any message on their profile means that they would have the power to edit any message on their profile i.e. giving you the equivalent of staff access. Furthermore, VMs don't leave an edit history.

I don't think anyone wants their VMs messed with. Would you? I know that isn't your intention, but implementing your suggestion would allow for editing.

I'm not entirely sure that this is correct though, but I'm pretty sure it is. Even if the whole editing part can be worked around, it wouldn't be worth the hassle, and you should be more careful in the future.

Well, despite being unsure about your point, it is a good point. If giving the users undelete ability would give edit powers too, then I don't blame the staff for thinking it's a bad idea. After all, I am not familiar with the level of granularity you can assign permissions for VM management as of the current vB version. (the one we're using, not the one on development or recently released) If it would take too much php work to implement my idea, I don't blame you at all. However, if it's possible to set those permissions manually, it'd be useful to have. At the very least, you did see that I wasn't intending for users to get any power like edit (which could be readily abused, as you said before.)


All of that being said, I also see how undelete could be abused if a staff member deletes something and the user un-deletes it. If there's no way to prevent users from undeleting a VM that they did not themselves delete, then this idea does rightly belong in the half-baked bin...because it'd be hard to properly implement if vB doesn't support it.