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Maruno
January 31st, 2010, 06:59 PM
What would you say to a forum-owned wiki? You may think it odd for a forum to have a wiki, but that doesn't make it wrong. I think it would be quite useful for at least some aspects of the forum, and you can get a wiki for free nowadays (so even if it doesn't take off, nothing's lost).

I lurk solely around the Game Development section, so I can't speak for the other sections (except possibly ROM Hacking, which is a similar concept), and I'll be referring mostly to them below. A quick look through the forum suggests that these two would be the sections that would most benefit from it, though (but that's not to say other sections couldn't find some use for a wiki).



For user-made games and hacks, the wiki can be used to provide a lot of information about the game, more than texts in posts can (I believe there's a limit to post lengths). It also offers the ability to format this information into good-looking sections a bit more easily than using html (and even more easily with custom wiki templates, which are simple to make).

The wiki would also provide a central nexus for all user-made games/hacks as well. Instead of users having to create a personal website or wiki of their own to display their information (which may be difficult/inconvenient to find, plus the increased possibility of it being taken down for whatever reason compared to a wiki's relatively secure existence), they can instead create a new page on the wiki for their project. A fan game will generally have a lot of information, much more than is reasonable to put into a thread (which is why the creators wanted to make personal websites in the first place), but the wiki would have much more room for all that info (plus it's easier to organise).

And speaking of organisation and easy formatting, the average quality of a game's section will continually be increased by everyone drawing inspiration from each other on what information to include in their section and how to arrange it all (including modification of any templates the games end up using). Bulbapedia is managing to look snazzy, so why wouldn't we?

As well as each fan game having its own little section in the wiki, a page or two can list all of them, with little annotations stating their progress/activity. These, particularly the annotations), are much more likely to be kept up to date, as just anyone can edit the page to keep it on the cutting edge of things. Non-PokéCommunity games can also be listed, to provide a fuller list of all existing games (Pokémon-related or otherwise).

As well as fan games, there are a few other things related to game-making that would benefit from a collective contribution. Such things include the Pokémon Essentials project for RPG Maker XP, and whatever software the ROM hackers use. Pages regarding these would include lengthy FAQs, guides and tutorials about features, tips and tricks, "Getting Started" and so forth. Such guides and FAQs would be invaluable to everyone who used their programs/kits, and everyone would be able to contribute even little things themselves - at the moment, at least with Essentials, it seems (read: my opinion is that) people think only bigger features (e.g. Pokémon following) are worth detailing in tutorials, with the smaller ones often neglected/undocumented.

With a wiki, anyone can contribute their own thing and offer improvements to existing information. This way, a database of features/information/etc. can easily be developed, by drawing on the contributions of all the users. The wiki would offer a more relaxed atmosphere than the "Tutorials" sections, which I see as rather foreboding (i.e. one's guide must be brilliant to be worthy of being there - I know this isn't really the case, but I think there's still that sort of air about it). With the wiki, just anyone could contribute their little piece (e.g. a fix to the in-game pokémon trading system), and others can see it and use it where they want. This may well also provide a means to improve the general quality of user-made games too, as a database of addable features with good documentation would help users to improve their own games. This provides a sense of openness with the freely available information, rather than users being forced to ask how to do something (granted, big things like touch screen support may still be kept secret by those few who have developed it, but other features would be more easily accessible than they currently are).



Beyond the game creation sections, though, I'm sure other parts of the forum would find use of the wiki as well. I'm not sure how, though, but as someone once said, "If you build it, (they) will come." I'm sure you 'll find uses for it once it's there for you to use. And if you don't, the game creation sections alone would find it vastly useful.

The technical effort required in setting up and maintaining the wiki would be minimal. Creating the wiki is probably an easy step - just a few clicks required (at least with Wikia (http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia)). Then appoint a few moderators, add some useful parser functions, and set up a restriction such that only registered members can edit pages (to help prevent spam). That's about all there is to it, I think - the wiki would mostly govern itself, since all members could undo malicious edits themselves (and those edits can be undone as well, thanks to the nature of wikis). Easy.



Thus ends my proposal. It's certainly a big deal, but I think it would be worth it, and I'm sure many of you would agree. What do you think?

Noah Ridgewood
January 31st, 2010, 09:21 PM
The personal message you sent Avatar was forwarded to a thread he posted with details of your idea to the staff. Some of the staff members have discussed it and shared their opinions of it, but decisions are done in the Community Headquarters, which is only available to Super Moderators and up. The idea could be in discussion there as well. You'd have to wait until someone of the higher staff sees this thread and has something to say, if anything.

I shared my opinions in the thread myself, but since you posted this, I might as well share some of them with you since it was your idea who started the discussion in the first place. Maybe it may not be the right decision to do on my part, but this was your idea and you deserve some feedback on it, regardless.

First, let me say that your concept is well written and clearly well thought out. I am not a game developer, or a hacker, so I would have no need for this feature if it takes its role in the community. But that doesn't change the fact that I believe it can be extremely useful for those who do take part in those activities during their free time. PokéCommunity is known for a place to come to download Rom Hacks and games developed by fans. At least, that's what I've come to know. It's one of the few forums that I've come to know who have a majority of the member base involved in that type of work. Personally, I think the idea of a wiki concept for a forum is a nice one, especially considering the fact that it will be more so geared towards something most other Pokémon forums don't have, a game development based Wiki.

One of the problems that the staff found would occur would be members. From what I've come to know, most of the members are very headstrong, very stubborn, (which aren't necessarily bad things) and above all, very immature. That goes without say considering the member-base is composed of children. There's only a few who I feel are mature enough to have the power to manipulate articles to whatever they chose, so there's only a few people I would trust with that ability. But at the same time, it's very judgmental for us to just pass something like this down time and time again because of a few immature seeds. I don't think its right for the members who know what they're doing, who are willing to help, and who find that they themselves can contribute greatly to this feature, if implemented.

In the beginning, developing it would be difficult. It'll need a lot of staff members to moderate every single article being published and edit them to suit accurate data. I think it would be rather rewarding in the end, however. It could prove to become a very successful contribution to the community and a very useful resource for those who are interested in starting a Rom Hack, or developing their own game and don't quite know how to start off or what to do.

I support your concept and idea, as a whole. I think we should take the risk at implementing the concept for now. It'll certainly be a risk due to not really knowing what the members would do, but in order for successful things to happen, people have to take risks. The worst that could happen is that we're proven to be right when it comes to the members making a hassle out of it, it becomes a burden, and is shut down. For the purpose you have in mind, it can prove to be very useful and it might be a lot easier than having to post in the questions thread that, in itself, is very limited to help.

amoliski
January 31st, 2010, 11:14 PM
I suggested this a while ago and got (nicely) shot down...
http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=201478

That said, if this does happen, I would defiantly help get it going!

Ausaudriel
February 1st, 2010, 12:23 AM
I support this idea and will bring it up for discussion in the proper h-staff forum.

Maruno
February 1st, 2010, 08:06 AM
I suggested this a while ago and got (nicely) shot down...
http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=201478

That said, if this does happen, I would defiantly help get it going!
Obviously I didn't do my research. I didn't know the idea had already been suggested and shot down just two months ago.


One of the problems that the staff found would occur would be members. From what I've come to know, most of the members are very headstrong, very stubborn, (which aren't necessarily bad things) and above all, very immature. That goes without say considering the member-base is composed of children. There's only a few who I feel are mature enough to have the power to manipulate articles to whatever they chose, so there's only a few people I would trust with that ability. But at the same time, it's very judgmental for us to just pass something like this down time and time again because of a few immature seeds. I don't think its right for the members who know what they're doing, who are willing to help, and who find that they themselves can contribute greatly to this feature, if implemented.
Firstly, thanks for the feedback.

I fully understand the concern about malicious/childish editing. Wikis have a couple of steps they can take to combat this, including restricting editing rights to signed-up users only, locking disputed pages, and temporary bans of individual members. Much like forums, if you think about it.

How big of a problem this would be depends entirely on how many people go just to cause trouble, and how many are really stubborn (e.g. erasing a tutorial just because they think people should work it out for themselves). But this extent can't be guessed at until the wiki is actually implemented, in which case it's too late. Personally, I have faith that this issue won't be too big, certainly not when the wiki is properly established.

To combat this, as you say, would require staff members (admins and moderators) to patrol the new edits from time to time and keep order. These staff members have a few extra powers, such as being able to delete a page (i.e. any edits by normal members can always be reverted, which is good) and lock/unlock pages. The question is who to trust with these powers, and how many staff members we imagine is required (although the latter can be run on a need-to-promote basis). I can't offer an easy answer as to who to promote for the wiki, but I'm at least confident that there are enough trustworthy regulars here to fill the ranks. All I'll say is that wikis are different to forums, so simply copying over the staff from one to the other may not be the best idea.


In the beginning, developing it would be difficult. It'll need a lot of staff members to moderate every single article being published and edit them to suit accurate data. I think it would be rather rewarding in the end, however. It could prove to become a very successful contribution to the community and a very useful resource for those who are interested in starting a Rom Hack, or developing their own game and don't quite know how to start off or what to do.
It will certainly be difficult to get the wiki going. Although perhaps we shouldn't be aiming for a perfect standard from the start. A wiki evolves through use, and while basic outlines would be required at the start to keep some kind of order, these outlines can be modified later to account for any new features/sections (e.g. a wiki-based roleplay). So while the pages should be monitored to ensure they are at least usable, I don't think strict "moderation" of all pages would be necessary (and therefore there'd be no need of "a lot of" staff members working on it). Just checks would be enough, with a few bits of housekeeping (e.g. censorship, adding a template which says, "This article should be reworded for ease of understanding.")

It's the users' jobs to keep those things up to snuff, not the moderators. This is the benefit of a wiki, where everyone can contribute/fix articles, rather than just the article creator and staff (as is the case on forums).


I support your concept and idea, as a whole. I think we should take the risk at implementing the concept for now. It'll certainly be a risk due to not really knowing what the members would do, but in order for successful things to happen, people have to take risks. The worst that could happen is that we're proven to be right when it comes to the members making a hassle out of it, it becomes a burden, and is shut down. For the purpose you have in mind, it can prove to be very useful and it might be a lot easier than having to post in the questions thread that, in itself, is very limited to help.
Thanks for the support.

I imagine the wiki being a resource centre, rather than a bigger (and possibly overshadowing) aspect of the forum. The forum would still be the main place to go, and the wiki would only have the tutorials/detailed fan game information/etc. It may well develop a community of its own, but I'd rather see it sharing that community with the forum than segregating itself. I'm not trying to overthrow the forum here, I'm trying to supplement it. Just to be clear.

Spartacus
February 1st, 2010, 08:12 AM
If this project does go forward to production, could any regular members post anything they've come up with and the h-staff can agree whether to add it?

BHwolfgang
February 1st, 2010, 08:30 AM
If this project does go forward to production, could any regular members post anything they've come up with and the h-staff can agree whether to add it? I think it's more of a member such as yourself and I edit something from the wiki and the Staff member would have to approve of it first for it to show up.

I support this idea. It might take a lot of trials and errors to successfully get it right; but I'm sure that if enough patience and time are taken into this project, something right would come of it.

Maruno
February 1st, 2010, 10:25 AM
It may not even be the case that any edits need to be approved before they're applied. You could make edits straight away, and post whatever you want immediately. Ideally the entire community would agree whether you keep your article or not (rather than just the staff), and would help adapt it to make it as good as possible.

If you wanted to put up an article/page that you don't want anyone else to edit, there's a way to do that as well. Each user has a user page, and there is an unspoken agreement that only that user should be allowed to edit their user page. You can also create sub-pages off that for your own articles that you don't want anyone else to edit (but include a message at the start asking people not to mess with it, just in case some people don't get it).

Flygon22
February 1st, 2010, 12:31 PM
I think its not my Problem when they make a Wiki or so .
But when they make one then im looking at this.

JeTz
February 7th, 2010, 03:49 AM
Why not? If this was made, I would find myself looking at it most of the time

Live Update King
February 7th, 2010, 03:57 AM
Hang on we could have a home page at http://www.pokecommunity.com which links to the wiki and the forums which will be moved to http://www.pokecommunity.com/forums :)

iLaxbe!
February 7th, 2010, 04:04 AM
"I don't see it catching on." I can take off, of course. People here are really involved with Pokémon and this Wiki can turn out to be great, but I don't think I'll stop using Bulbapedia.

Decibel
February 7th, 2010, 04:09 AM
Hang on we could have a home page at http://www.pokecommunity.com which links to the wiki and the forums which will be moved to http://www.pokecommunity.com/forums :)

With a nice little splash screen at pokecommunity.com, kinda like the serebii.net one.

Live Update King
February 7th, 2010, 04:30 AM
I seen the pokecommuntity wiki and it needs alot of work done to it. Not ready to go public yet but I will work extra hard to get it up and running :)

Hiroshi Sotomura
February 7th, 2010, 04:31 AM
Hang on we could have a home page at http://www.pokecommunity.com which links to the wiki and the forums which will be moved to http://www.pokecommunity.com/forums :)
God no. The PokéCommunity is forever a forum; everything else is on the side.

edit: Since when were you allowed to go there? If you just found it by accident I ask you to not go near it.

"I don't see it catching on." I can take off, of course. People here are really involved with Pokémon and this Wiki can turn out to be great, but I don't think I'll stop using Bulbapedia.
To start off (and maybe, for the lifetime of the wiki) we'll keep it to PC-related topics only, from stuff directly relevant like emblems and pairing, to pages dedicated to ROM hacks and games. If we ever cross into Pokémon itself, well… dunno.

Live Update King
February 7th, 2010, 04:39 AM
God no. The PokéCommunity is forever a forum; everything else is on the side.

edit: Since when were you allowed to go there? If you just found it by accident I ask you to not go near it.


To start off (and maybe, for the lifetime of the wiki) we'll keep it to PC-related topics only, from stuff directly relevant like emblems and pairing, to pages dedicated to ROM hacks and games. If we ever cross into Pokémon itself, well… dunno.

Im not discussing this matter on the forum. Keeping it secret ;)

iLaxbe!
February 7th, 2010, 04:56 AM
To start off (and maybe, for the lifetime of the wiki) we'll keep it to PC-related topics only, from stuff directly relevant like emblems and pairing, to pages dedicated to ROM hacks and games. If we ever cross into Pokémon itself, well… dunno.Ah, now it sounds good. Wish I could change my vote, hehe.

Ochigi
February 7th, 2010, 05:06 AM
I don't like this idea...Why do we need a wiki on the site?
I don't even know....
Theres not much to say about the site...
The name gives a hint "Poke-Community".
It's like a regular forum...Except a pokemon one.

Live Update King
February 7th, 2010, 06:05 AM
Ah, now it sounds good. Wish I could change my vote, hehe.

Might do something now :)

iLaxbe!
February 7th, 2010, 06:17 AM
Might do something now :)Nah, I won't let Ochigi alone in this one. I'm a good kind of person. (this was so off-topic, let's get back)

Melody
February 7th, 2010, 10:13 AM
I fully support this idea, especially since the MediaWiki software has ways to keep new users from editing just anything. I'd certainly love to give the staff a helping hand in operating a wiki if no other wiki experts are on staff.

We could definitely use this wiki to post ROM hacks, FanFics, basic game information for things like DPPT and HGSS. Not to mention that it'd be pretty easy to allow all forum users to join the wiki, but not be allowed to edit anything but their own user page until given staff clearance.

Daeva Okami-Luca
February 7th, 2010, 10:20 AM
If the wiki was accessible to everyone instead of members only, that would be useful for ROM downloading. It's a little annoying to have to sign up to a forum to download a popular ROM.

Maruno
February 7th, 2010, 06:16 PM
Some wikis have limits on the size/type of files you can upload, and often zip/rar files aren't allowed. Somehow I doubt our wiki will be able to be used as a file storage space.

I'm sure the wiki will be accessible to everyone. However, only certain people will be allowed to edit it (e.g. only registered members).

Salvation
February 7th, 2010, 06:19 PM
Tbh, this wouldn't hurt the strategies and movesets either as I can see but I don't represent any of them soo~ just me

.Gamer
February 8th, 2010, 07:29 AM
I guess, for like ROMs and Art and such. There is already Bulbapedia for every pokemon question. And (most) movesets can be looked up on Smogon, so it kinda feels redundant imo.

Deokishisu
February 10th, 2010, 08:13 PM
I solely use the ROMHacking forum on PokeCommunity, and rarely post anywhere else. If implemented right, I think the wiki would be one of the best things to happen to the ROMHacking sub-community here. My only concern would be that it morphs into the Scrapbox's revenge. And I've made my opinion known how much I hated that spam filled death trap :P. There'd have to be a restriction on what hacks can be given a hack page and what can't. I'm not sure what atrocities the Game Development forum has seen, but back in ROMHacking, there've been quite a lot of spamming noobs who think that turning a sign into a talking tree automatically makes them hacking gods. That's my main fear regarding the wiki from a ROMHacking prospective.

However, I think the potential for this project far outweighs the risks. It's impossible for a hacker (or a game developer I'd imagine) to remember all the techniques they need to use all the time. I often find myself pouring over the Tutorials section so I can find that one simple little thing I forgot how to do, which wastes a lot of time. With the wiki, any additional ways to make a change could be documented on its page, and a convenient and easy to read list could be made of all the tutorial articles. There wouldn't be as much clutter either, seeing as I sometimes find myself going through several pages to find an addition to a tutorial or something.

It'd be the same for hacks. All updates would be in an easy to find place on their hack page. Instead of going through six pages of "GG don't quit" and other words of encouragement that you're not interested in reading just to find all the updates and screenshots, everything could be found on the hack's wiki page. Discussion would still be done on the forum, but the wiki would put everything into an easy to find and easy to update format. Little changes not worth a post could also be documented on the wiki. The same would apply to tools.

A wiki would seem to be a natural step in the growth process of the ROMHacking community here at PC, and would benefit ROMHackers and newbies immensely.

Corvus of the Black Night
February 14th, 2010, 04:50 AM
I wouldn't be interested in a Pokecommunity Wiki - couldn't we collaborate with Bulbapedia and just have a section there (instead of a page)? To be honest, it would mainly be about Pokecommunity's features and members... which isn't really all that wikia-like.

A rom-hacking Wiki? I could see that. Pokecommunity? No.

Angela
February 14th, 2010, 07:49 AM
So I like this idea so far and I hope it gets done, tho I do have some questions about one thing. If you do this would this mean that PC would get like a website or a front pages (Not sure what it's called), and if so what would be on it? I mean would members be allowed to submit Pokemon related news and such?

Also in the wiki, would we be allowed to add graphics tutorials to it and also explanations of basic concepts, such as depth, flow and light source and more? Also could all the tuts in this thread (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=170876) be added into the wiki?

Maruno
February 14th, 2010, 05:03 PM
So I like this idea so far and I hope it gets done, tho I do have some questions about one thing. If you do this would this mean that PC would get like a website or a front pages (Not sure what it's called), and if so what would be on it? I mean would members be allowed to submit Pokemon related news and such?
I'm pretty sure the forum will remain the main part of PokéCommunity. The wiki would be like a resource area that supplements it. PokéCommunity will remain at least mostly a forum.


Also in the wiki, would we be allowed to add graphics tutorials to it and also explanations of basic concepts, such as depth, flow and light source and more? Also could all the tuts in this thread (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=170876) be added into the wiki?
They're part of PokéCommunity. I don't see why not.

Permission should be obtained from the authors to copy them to the wiki, though. And that permission may forbid anyone but the author from editing it, if they want to keep it strictly theirs (this is particularly true for tutorials/etc. involving personal taste/style, since everyone would be trying to edit their own tastes into it otherwise).

Users that don't want other people editing their tutorial should probably put their tutorial into a sub-page of their user page. It's common courtesy that only the user can edit their own pages.

theonexd
February 18th, 2010, 09:06 AM
This will take some time though. The PC Staff might need help and ask members to post good info.

Maruno
February 18th, 2010, 10:57 AM
I think you've got that the wrong way round. The wiki isn't for the staff to create and the rest of us to look at; it's for everyone to contribute to and use how they want.

I hope the people building the wiki don't go overboard with what they think is needed at the start. Yes, it'd be nice to have a framework in place for people to add to, but the wiki doesn't need to be fully "completed" before anyone else is allowed to see it. Let the users copy across the Essentials kit notes and the Advance Map description and what have you.

I hope the wiki gets opened soon.

The Darkest Gale
February 18th, 2010, 10:58 AM
I am all for this it sounds awesome :D once up and running

Pikachu Trainer~
February 21st, 2010, 04:22 AM
I think you have come up with a great idea, Maruno. I'm sure plenty of people on the forums will use it and it could be worth while making. But I do believe that staff should moderate the wiki articles, so when an article is posted it will not go straight on to the wiki, a staff member must first look at it and then accept it. Hopefully your idea will happen Maruno :D