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pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 02:33 PM
http://fora.tv/2009/10/07/Richard_Dawkins_The_Greatest_Show_on_Earth#Dawkins_Compares_Creationists_to_Holocaust_Deniers

I just watched that fascinating speech by Richard Dawkins about the problems biology teachers face today by being asked to teach creationism or having the theory of evolution removed from their text books.

Thoughts?

EDIT: And just a bit more on the video, I thought it was a brilliant comparison to question whether or not Holocaust deniers should be given a spot in our text books as well; a comparable situation in his eyes and mine.

Jordan
March 15th, 2010, 02:46 PM
As a Christian myself, I don't think it's necessary to teach our doctrines in schools, particularly public ones. Religious ideal's should be taught by the churches (or other institution of religion) or from one's own reading of religious texts. Forcing them on someone else won't change their minds, especially on a topic like evolution.
I think a "this lesson isn't intended to support atheism, and anyone is entitled to their own beliefs" prior to a lesson should suffice.

Jolene
March 15th, 2010, 02:51 PM
No, creationism should absolutely not be taught in schools. Why teach lies to children?

Religion is one of the things that really annoys me about America. Everyone takes it so seriously. Back in England, if someone suggested that creationism be taught in schools to the House of Commons, they'd get laughed out of the building. That's how it should be.

There is no doubt in my mind that God does not exist.

Bianca Paragon
March 15th, 2010, 02:57 PM
That's like mandating that fairytales must be taught in school :O

Mizan de la Plume Kuro
March 15th, 2010, 03:03 PM
Why teach lies to children?

That's like mandating that fairytales must be taught in school :O
I have to say that the blunt way in which you phrase your statement is very insulting to most Monotheistic and Polytheistic religions.

Anyway, in Malaysia, Creationism(Islamic Creationism) is taught in schools and is a mandatory subject because it is integrated into the Islamic Studies subject for Muslim students. Science text-books are written in such a way that at the end of some chapters, students are told to be grateful for the wonderful Universe in which God has provided for us.

Also, threads of this caliber on PC tend to degenerate into flame wars sooner or later...

Jolene
March 15th, 2010, 03:03 PM
That's like mandating that fairytales must be taught in school :O

Fairytales should be mandatory. They are good for instilling an interest in reading into children, and they teach morals. I would say that fairytales are a more important part of a child's curriculum than religion.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 03:03 PM
No, creationism should absolutely not be taught in schools. Why teach lies to children?

Religion is one of the things that really annoys me about America. Everyone takes it so seriously. Back in England, if someone suggested that creationism be taught in schools to the House of Commons, they'd get laughed out of the building. That's how it should be.

There is no doubt in my mind that God does not exist.
Well if you watched that video Dawkins speaks directly about the problem in the UK and Europe right now, mostly because of the Muslim population. Personally, I'm not sure if fundie Christians or zealot Muslims are the bigger problem facing our respective regions.

EDIT: Mizan, my threads never create flame wars. Ever.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 03:10 PM
Yeah, and let's teach med students that diseases are caused by demons inhabiting our bodies.
SURELY PRAYER MUST BE THE ANSWER INSTEAD OF SCIENCE.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Yeah, and let's teach med students that diseases are caused by demons inhabiting our bodies.
SURELY PRAYER MUST BE THE ANSWER INSTEAD OF SCIENCE.
Exorcisms have worked in the Catholic church for ages, respect the process man.

NikoBelic999
March 15th, 2010, 03:15 PM
Well, Im religious and NEVER will be an atheist, I DO NOT think that creationism should be taught it school.

In fact, my grandpa was a preacher for over 50 years, in a baptist church, I REALLY DISLIKE Atheists.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 03:18 PM
Well, Im religious and NEVER will be an atheist, I DO NOT think that creationism should be taught it school.

In fact, my grandpa was a preacher for over 50 years, in a baptist church, I REALLY DISLIKE Atheists.
Not discounting the fact God loves everyone and preaches tolerance. A message that belongs in our school without a deity attached. TOLERANCE PEOPLE, TOLERANCE.

Unless you don't believe in what I do. Then you get nada from me.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 03:23 PM
Exorcisms have worked in the Catholic church for ages, respect the process man.

Come on now, ease up on the trolling. I actually treated you seriously for a second.

Mizan de la Plume Kuro
March 15th, 2010, 03:28 PM
Well if you watched that video Dawkins speaks directly about the problem in the UK and Europe right now, mostly because of the Muslim population. Personally, I'm not sure if fundie Christians or zealot Muslims are the bigger problem facing our respective regions.

EDIT: Mizan, my threads never create flame wars. Ever.Will watch tomorrow, no time tonight. :P

We'll see. XD I'm hoping it won't turn into a flame war though. I do enjoy a civilized debate.

Yeah, and let's teach med students that diseases are caused by demons inhabiting our bodies.
SURELY PRAYER MUST BE THE ANSWER INSTEAD OF SCIENCE.The Muslim/Persian/Arabic cultures actually contributed a lot to proper medical science and pharmaceutical methods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medicine#Arabic_and_Persian_medicine

A little prayer before a major surgery however, never hurt anyone...

Esper
March 15th, 2010, 03:33 PM
I'm not against schools teaching that creationism as an idea exists and that some people believe in it, provided it's all done in an elective class and that it also teaches about the creation stories all all the world's religions as well as the generally accepted scientific explanation for the beginning of the universe.

It should, however, never grace the pages of a science textbook.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM
A little prayer alcohol before a major surgery however, never hurt anyone...

Fixed for improved truthiness.

Sadly I think that religion in schools is out of gas. What is terrible though is Texas's Board of Education recently passed a motion to get rid of Thomas Jefferson from our textbooks because of his claim that state and religion should be separated.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 03:35 PM
The Muslim/Persian/Arabic cultures actually contributed a lot to proper medical science and pharmaceutical methods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_medicine#Arabic_and_Persian_medicine

A little prayer before a major surgery however, never hurt anyone...

I mean using only prayer. Any sane person would choose a physician/surgeon/etc. to cure their problems instead of rolling the dice of life.
Anyways, I don't see any evidence of creation attributable only to a certain religion, which is why I don't think it should be taught in schools.
"OMG THIS PLANET IS PERFECT FOR LIFE" can be used by every religion that talks about creation.

Jolene
March 15th, 2010, 03:39 PM
Sadly I think that religion in schools is out of gas.

I think that teaching children about religions is important so that they will be tolerant. It's fine to teach children about creationism, so long as the teacher doesn't suggest that it is fact.

Cherrim
March 15th, 2010, 03:44 PM
Creationism can absolutely be taught in schools...

...so long as those schools teach the creation stories of every major religion as well as the scientific view (evolution) and give children all the necessary facts so that they may form their own opinion on the matter.

Seriously, I'd have no problem with schools telling children that God created everyone in 7 days or whatever (either that or the Adam & Eve story--the bible can't even choose which origin story it likes :s). But that's only okay if the curriculum includes other religions (because Christianity is NOT the only belief on this earth) and doctrines. To this end, I also agree that it should be mandatory for everyone to take a "World Religions" course. Everyone needs to know the basics about other religions and should know what their beliefs are, even if only for the sake of the politically correct world we've been slowly creating. So whether or not evolution is preached as the "right" origin story, people will know what the creation stories of other religions are and how they compare.

Too bad that'll never happen.

(Also, question because I honestly don't know: is there even a DEBATE about whether or not to teach evolution in schools outside of the US? :s I can't recall anything of the sort in Canada but I don't know how it is in other countries.)

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 03:45 PM
I think that teaching children about religions is important so that they will be tolerant. It's fine to teach children about creationism, so long as the teacher doesn't suggest that it is fact.
Yeah, that was what I was inferring. Religion is one of my favorite areas of study, especially ancient polytheistic ones (Greek, Roman, Egyptian) that essentially paved the way for more modern religions, such as Christianity and Islam.

Jolene
March 15th, 2010, 03:58 PM
Creationism can absolutely be taught in schools...

...so long as those schools teach the creation stories of every major religion as well as the scientific view (evolution) and give children all the necessary facts so that they may form their own opinion on the matter.

I disagree. That would confuse children. Also, teachers are bias.

Creationism should be taught in the context that "Some Christians believe that..." Evolution, on the other hand, should be taught as fact - because it is undeniable fact.


(Also, question because I honestly don't know: is there even a DEBATE about whether or not to teach evolution in schools outside of the US? :s I can't recall anything of the sort in Canada but I don't know how it is in other countries.)

America is the only developed country that takes religion seriously. I've always thought it was weird that the president always talks about God in his speeches. In England, that would just seem ridiculous.

.little monster
March 15th, 2010, 04:19 PM
With parental consent.

Since everyone is not the same religion, and creationism varies on the religion, it should require parental class. And should only be an elective in high school.

I am agnostic by the way.

Throat
March 15th, 2010, 04:21 PM
No! Creationism isn't an acceptable and evolucionism is just a fact. Creationism can be debated under the condition of mere folklore. To be dumb is not an option, furthermore, god is fickle and you can still believe it even if you don't try to take the bible literally

King Breloom
March 15th, 2010, 04:47 PM
I think that teaching children about religions is important so that they will be tolerant. It's fine to teach children about creationism, so long as the teacher doesn't suggest that it is fact.

I agree and disagree
I myself am a christian through and through but the bible says that people should want to come to him and christians should speak gods word.

i think that the teach should suggest to them to believe what they believe is right.

Because if u r forcing ur atheistic beleifs on another how r u better then the chrsitians who do the same
and dont say because im not spreading lies almost 80 something percent of the world believes in some sort of god and so you could argue that athiests are preaching lies

Also when aithiests say that their is no evidence to disprove god. I ask to put as much time as you would into researching proof to prove god as youw ould to disprove god. I would like to know your answer.

SIN1488
March 15th, 2010, 04:48 PM
Give them both options, and let them decide for themselves. There are things evolution can't explain, like the flagellar motor in certain bacteria. It is so complex, that it could not have developed all at once. But it couldn't have developed slowly either, because the individual parts had no benefit to the species.

Honestly, I don't get why it's so strange or "stupid" to believe in both.
(http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Ss0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&ei=h9WeS8-UI4TGsQOv0vScCw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&ved=0CAUQBSgA&q=flagellar+motor+in+bacteria&spell=1)

A Pixy
March 15th, 2010, 04:50 PM
Anything religious based should not be taught in school. Leave the religion to the religious schools, that's what they're there for.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 04:52 PM
I agree and disagree
I myself am a christian through and through but the bible says that people should want to come to him and christians should speak gods word.

i think that the teach should suggest to them to believe what they believe is right.

Because if u r forcing ur atheistic beleifs on another how r u better then the chrsitians who do the same
and dont say because im not spreading lies almost 80 something percent of the world believes in some sort of god and so you could argue that athiests are preaching lies

Also when aithiests say that their is no evidence to disprove god. I ask to put as much time as you would into researching proof to prove god as youw ould to disprove god. I would like to know your answer.
Lack of religious teachings does not an atheistic curriculum make. It is simply unbiased by petty deity worship from vain gods of bygone centuries.

Cherrim
March 15th, 2010, 04:54 PM
I disagree. That would confuse children. Also, teachers are bias.
When I say that, I mean it should be taught in high school. I believe by that age, a person is old enough to think for themselves without confusing all the different information.

But yeah, the fact that teachers are bias (and people are idiots) means it'd never happen the way I envision.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 05:06 PM
Because if u r forcing ur atheistic beleifs on another how r u better then the chrsitians who do the same
Um, what?
No school says "OMG YOU LOSER, YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, STOP BELIEVING." Pokejungle already explained it. Anyways, they only teach what they are teaching right now because there is evidence behind it. It isn't atheistic to believe in evolution or germ theory. When evidence comes forward and any theory is disproven, they change the curriculum.

And I thought they already had churches for religion and religious studies :/
and dont say because im not spreading lies almost 80 something percent of the world believes in some sort of god and so you could argue that athiests are preaching lies

Whether or not the majority believes in a higher being doesn't make it true. This is science, not a popularity contest.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 05:10 PM
No, creationism should absolutely not be taught in schools. Why teach lies to children?

Religion is one of the things that really annoys me about America. Everyone takes it so seriously. Back in England, if someone suggested that creationism be taught in schools to the House of Commons, they'd get laughed out of the building. That's how it should be.

There is no doubt in my mind that God does not exist.
I will be praying for you. Also that why quite rude and ignorant. I can't wait to see your face when you see god is real and god say "so, I am a lie?"

Fairytales should be mandatory. They are good for instilling an interest in reading into children, and they teach morals. I would say that fairytales are a more important part of a child's curriculum than religion.Your really hurting my feelings. :C
There not fairy tales it's as real as you and me.

Yeah, and let's teach med students that diseases are caused by demons inhabiting our bodies.
SURELY PRAYER MUST BE THE ANSWER INSTEAD OF SCIENCE.No where in creation dose it say deies are caused by demons. Prayer with science , I fail to see why you can't have both.

I think that teaching children about religions is important so that they will be tolerant. It's fine to teach children about creationism, so long as the teacher doesn't suggest that it is fact.Okay I agree with you there. The teachers should not say it is fact, let the children/teens decide on there own. :)

Creationism can absolutely be taught in schools...

...so long as those schools teach the creation stories of every major religion as well as the scientific view (evolution) and give children all the necessary facts so that they may form their own opinion on the matter.

Seriously, I'd have no problem with schools telling children that God created everyone in 7 days or whatever (either that or the Adam & Eve story--the bible can't even choose which origin story it likes :s). But that's only okay if the curriculum includes other religions (because Christianity is NOT the only belief on this earth) and doctrines. To this end, I also agree that it should be mandatory for everyone to take a "World Religions" course. Everyone needs to know the basics about other religions and should know what their beliefs are, even if only for the sake of the politically correct world we've been slowly creating. So whether or not evolution is preached as the "right" origin story, people will know what the creation stories of other religions are and how they compare.

Too bad that'll never happen.

(Also, question because I honestly don't know: is there even a DEBATE about whether or not to teach evolution in schools outside of the US? :s I can't recall anything of the sort in Canada but I don't know how it is in other countries.) Nah, that would take to long. Most people that fight for creation in the schools are christian. The only religion that stands up against evolution is Christianity's view on creation.

I disagree. That would confuse children. Also, teachers are bias.

Creationism should be taught in the context that "Some Christians believe that..." Evolution, on the other hand, should be taught as fact - because it is undeniable fact.




America is the only developed country that takes religion seriously. I've always thought it was weird that the president always talks about God in his speeches. In England, that would just seem ridiculous.Again EVOLUTION IS NOT FACT IT IS A THEORY!!!

Also I agree teachers are bias, I live in New York they are all Liberal. >:C
Some teachers will also be bias in favor of evolution.

No! Creationism isn't an acceptable and evolucionism is just a fact. Creationism can be debated under the condition of mere folklore. To be dumb is not an option, furthermore, god is fickle and you can still believe it even if you don't try to take the bible literallyEvolution is not fact it is a THEORY. There are a lot of things wrong with evolution, and quite frankly over exaggerated.

Give them both options, and let them decide for themselves. There are things evolution can't explain, like the flagellar motor in certain bacteria. It is so complex, that it could not have developed all at once. But it couldn't have developed slowly either, because the individual parts had no benefit to the species.

Honestly, I don't get why it's so strange or "stupid" to believe in both.
EXACTLY!!! let the kids decide for them self. Smartest statement I have read all day. (b,b)

Anything religious based should not be taught in school. Leave the religion to the religious schools, that's what they're there for.
Yeah, but not everyone goes to church. I would be fine with not teaching creation if they didn't teach evolution.

Um, what?
No school says "OMG YOU LOSER, YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, STOP BELIEVING." Pokejungle already explained it. Anyways, they only teach what they are teaching right now because there is evidence behind it. It isn't atheistic to believe in evolution or germ theory. When evidence comes forward and any theory is disproven, they change the curriculum.

And I thought they already had churches for religion and religious studies :/


Whether or not the majority believes in a higher being doesn't make it true. This is science, not a popularity contest.
@your first statement- Actually they do, they mock you for it, and say your stupid.

Not everyone goes to church. Also 90% of the time church dose not talk about creation.

ryty1231
March 15th, 2010, 05:16 PM
Absolutely not! Two reasons.

1. Breaks separation between church and state.
2. Can be offensive.

I for one am an atheist and would take it offensively, but anyways I don't care what other people believe, as long as somebody else doesn't decide what I believe. We need to let people decide for themselves.

Throat
March 15th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Evolution is not fact it is a THEORY. There are a lot of things wrong with evolution, and quite frankly over exaggerated.

Tell me some of those things, please.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 05:21 PM
I will be praying for you. Also that why quite rude and ignorant. I can't wait to see your face when you see god is real and god say "so, I am a lie?"
I'll take Jolene's place and troll for her. I'll think for you ;D
I know you don't deserve it, it just seems like the most Jolene thing to say :(
Your really hurting my feelings. :C
There not fairy tales it's as real as you and me.
…I'll just ignore this.

No where in creation dose it say deies are caused by demons. Prayer with science , I fail to see why you can't have both.
Um, I think in Matthew 12 Jesus healed a blind and deaf guy by removing the devil inside of him, but I'm not really sure.
Again, I don't see the problem with having both, but it gets stupid if you just use prayer. Don't gamble with your own life.

Okay I agree with you there. The teachers should not say it is fact, let the children/teens decide on there own. :)
Why would you let the children decide? You don't let the children decide when they want to go to bed, do you?

If you couldn't tell, Children make awful, awful decisions.

Nah, that would take to long. Most people that fight for creation in the schools are christian. The only religion that stands up against evolution is Christianity's view on creation.
And Islam and Catholicism and plenty of other smaller religions, but lets just ignore that.
Again EVOLUTION IS NOT FACT IT IS A THEORY!!!
Scientific theory. It's a common misconception, so I wouldn't blame you. If you still don't believe me, just look at germ theory.

Yeah, but not everyone goes to church. I would be fine with not teaching creation if they didn't teach evolution.
But that's completely biased. To believe that macroevolution happens, you don't have to be atheist. It doesn't even tell people about the origins of the universe or even life, just the biodiversity of it.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 05:21 PM
Absolutely not! Two reasons.

1. Breaks separation between church and state.
2. Can be offensive.

I for one am an atheist and would take it offensively, but anyways I don't care what other people believe, as long as somebody else doesn't decide what I believe. We need to let people decide for themselves.
I hate it when people say that. "separation of church and state" One the idea was first presented to protect Christianity from the government. number two it was later taken out of content in 1950's by a nazi of said schools should not teach creation.
So know your history and do you really want to side with a nazi?

ryty1231
March 15th, 2010, 05:24 PM
Wow! I don't you would say something like that. Even though Nazis and I have one thing in common doesn't mean I'm a horrible person or anything.

PokemonLeagueChamp
March 15th, 2010, 05:28 PM
God can't be disconnected from life's creation, but it certainly didn't go the way it says in the Bible, based on our fossil evidence. While I'm sure God set the machines of evolution in motion(as otherwise life would not exist), and then let it run its course to where I am saying this.

At least, IMHO.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 05:31 PM
@luck
You should read the bible more you mis-interrupted that passage, and the time of that passage, and things relating to it.

There is a stroy like that, but god said if you have jesus in your heart nothing else can enter. but obviously christens still get sick. If one person gets possed by a demon it doesn't mean that every sick person is possed.

@luck-2
think about me O.o In what kinda a way? lol jk.

ryty1231
March 15th, 2010, 05:34 PM
I hate it when people say that. "separation of church and state" One the idea was first presented to protect Christianity from the government. number two it was later taken out of content in 1950's by a nazi of said schools should not teach creation.
So know your history and do you really want to side with a nazi?

Really though, why would you say something like that? Do you know how much that offended me.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 05:35 PM
@luck
You should read the bible more you mis-interrupted that passage, and the time of that passage, and things relating to it.


No, I interpreted it.
You can't misinterpret when there is nothing to explicitly show it being your interpretation.
For all we know, this might be slang used back then.

If I misinterpret though, I find it strange that the diseases are cured and they mention demons being exorcised for no reason.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 05:36 PM
God can't be disconnected from life's creation, but it certainly didn't go the way it says in the Bible, based on our fossil evidence. While I'm sure God set the machines of evolution in motion(as otherwise life would not exist), and then let it run its course to where I am saying this.

At least, IMHO.uuuhhhh your the type of people that really get on my nerves. Fake religious people, you herd about god, and mabey side with him, but never truly dug any deeper. There is MICRO evolution not MARCO evolution. Also those fossil records have huge gaps, and do you know how charls darwin justified this? He said we haven't discovered enough fossils yet. Well it's been over 200 hundred years and a lot more fossils but the gap is still not closed.

@luck
The people where discrasing a holy tradition and that's why demons where flocking to them. They contracted disses because there was a demon inside of them.

@ryty1231 (http://www.pokecommunity.com/member.php?u=199390)
I didn't mean to offend you. I did not say you are a Natiz just saying who you are siding with. Also, you are getting off topic now. If you have a beef with me personally vm me.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 05:36 PM
I'm glad Luck pointed out that just because it is 'The Theory of Evolution' does not make it a "theory" in the conventional sense of the English term. It is not simply a "hypothesis".

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 05:42 PM
uuuhhhh your the type of people that really get on my nerves. Fake religious people, you herd about god, and mabey side with him, but never truly dug any deeper. There is MICRO evolution not MARCO evolution. Also those fossil records have huge gaps, and do you know how charls darwin justified this? He said we haven't discovered enough fossils yet. Well it's been over 200 hundred years and a lot more fossils but the gap is still not closed.

I don't know if I should treat you seriously or not.
There will always be gaps. Your logic goes along the lines of George Bush jumping from childhood to adulthood because there are gaps between a picture taken 50 years ago and a picture taken recently.
But um, I'm being way off topic, so just send me a message if you want to continue.
@luck
The people where discrasing a holy tradition and that's why demons where flocking to them. They contracted disses because there was a demon inside of them.

That sounds like it just supports my point entirely.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 06:02 PM
I don't how that proves your point. It shows that there where special sercom stances, and that all sick people are not possed.

Bianca Paragon
March 15th, 2010, 06:39 PM
Oh, it's hilarious watching Churchies try and argue against evolution ♥ protip: learn what a "scientific theory" is, before regurgitating the same old tripe your pedopriest tells you.

Flabébé
March 15th, 2010, 07:17 PM
To me, that is what church is for.
I will believe in my lord God until someone can prove him false, which is impossible.
People can try to express and explain things to me and in my opinion it is God who created the Earth, the universe and everything in it. It is impossible to prove to me otherwise and doing so would be a waste of your and my time.

But keep it out of school.

NarutoActor
March 15th, 2010, 07:23 PM
I would be fine with that if they kept evolution out of class. If you are going to teach something, show both sides of the story.

ryty1231
March 15th, 2010, 07:29 PM
Yes they should respect the other religions if they did show anything.

Mario The World Champion
March 15th, 2010, 07:40 PM
I don't know. The only reason creationism is gaining ground is due to the fact that evolution is not 100% fact and that gives creationists ammunition to try to add that view to a school's agenda or replace teaching about evolution, something that's been taught in school for many years.

I personally don't believe anything about creationism, nor do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old or how old they say it is. How to you explain the Dinosaurs?

Åzurε
March 15th, 2010, 07:45 PM
Oh, it's hilarious watching Churchies try and argue against evolution ♥ protip: learn what a "scientific theory" is, before regurgitating the same old tripe your pedopriest tells you.

Do I detect a mentality of superiority? Watch what you say...

I happen to know what a scientific theory is. A hypothesis that has been put through testing and has been found consistent with the resultant data. Though, technically, shouldn't a theory go back and be revised or discarded if there is evidence which points to the theory being incorrect? Among other things, has there been one recorded instance of evolution? Has there been one recorded instance of abiogenesis (which, assuming it's creationism vs. evolution, would be a necessity at some point)? Has there been one fossil that almost incontrovertibly shows the existence of some link, between any two organisms? Assuming you subscribe to the evolutionary plateau theory, do you know the odds of something like this actually happening, or how complex and delicate the life systems of any given organism is? Think about these before you answer me, please...

Hurrah for *high school* biology.

EDIT: at Feign's post below, there are passages in the Bible that warn about humans adding their own concepts to the Biblical concepts, and that there would be what are in essence cults. All I see is someone using an incorrect representation of Christianity to make it seem ridiculous to even consider it as fact.

Feign
March 15th, 2010, 07:50 PM
Rofl, how could I have not seen this thread earlier...

Needless to say, creationism is a joke, and should not be taught in school whatsoever... It would be on the same line of me not wanting the teacher to tell the kids to write to Santa...

While we're at it however:

v/LACyLTsH4ac

Jesus Camp (a disturbing documentary)

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 07:50 PM
I don't know. The only reason creationism is gaining ground is due to the fact that evolution is not 100% fact and that gives creationists ammunition to try to add that view to a school's agenda or replace teaching about evolution, something that's been taught in school for many years.

I personally don't believe anything about creationism, nor do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old or how old they say it is. How to you explain the Dinosaurs?
Haha what about it isn't 100% fact hon?

txteclipse
March 15th, 2010, 07:55 PM
They should teach everything or nothing. That's my take.

By the way, science is still very young. People who call anything "scientific fact" in this day and age will be laughed at down the road. In the grand scheme of what can be known, we haven't so much as removed a single molecule from the surface. The future will prove us barbarians.

Anti-Hero
March 15th, 2010, 07:56 PM
I think that religion and all its beliefs and ideals should stay at church, or private religious institutions. That way, they have a choice to hear what they want or not. In the US, teaching it would be against the first amendment, so it probably won't happen on a large scale. This topic is really highly debated all over the place.

CGCoder
March 15th, 2010, 08:14 PM
EVERYONE should believe whatever they they should not teach creationism OR evolution in school. they should get to choose their own path and not be forced into one thing or another. life is whatever you decide it to be, not what someone else decideds for you. being christian myself, i think its a wonderful thing but we should not change the minds of others

Åzurε
March 15th, 2010, 08:19 PM
EVERYONE should believe whatever they they should not teach creationism OR evolution in school. they should get to choose their own path and not be forced into one thing or another. life is whatever you decide it to be, not what someone else decideds for you. being christian myself, i think its a wonderful thing but we should not change the minds of others

Matthew 28:19- Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Evangelism is important. Don't force faith upon others, but do try to show them what Christianity really is, instead of the stereotypes so many people are trying to pin on it's followers, and the mistakes made by the many people who twist it themselves.

On with the show.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 08:20 PM
Gotta admit, I'm a little surprised that there are actually advocates for *not* teaching evolution in school.

It's not like... religious... it's just scientific. And we have science class. For scientific teachings.

ryty1231
March 15th, 2010, 08:20 PM
I was once a Christian but it faded away and just like that I became an atheist.

dr4g0n12
March 15th, 2010, 08:24 PM
No, it should not. Religion is slowly being rendered obsolete by science. Religion was here to explain the unexplainable, and now it serves no purpose since most is explainable, and things that are not will be quickly unraveled. Take spacecraft for an example. Religious people believed heaven was in the sky. They went up.And guess what? It was not there.

I think that religion and all its beliefs and ideals should stay at church, or private religious institutions. That way, they have a choice to hear what they want or not. In the US, teaching it would be against the first amendment, so it probably won't happen on a large scale. This topic is really highly debated all over the place.
And yes, it is unconstitutional. Even though most of the united states is religious.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 08:30 PM
Do I detect a mentality of superiority? Watch what you say...

I happen to know what a scientific theory is. A hypothesis that has been put through testing and has been found consistent with the resultant data. Though, technically, shouldn't a theory go back and be revised or discarded if there is evidence which points to the theory being incorrect?Scientists still find out new things and try to disprove evolution. It wouldn't be science if they didn't try to disprove something. Among other things, has there been one recorded instance of evolution?Right here I think (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html)Has there been one recorded instance of abiogenesis (which, assuming it's creationism vs. evolution, would be a necessity at some point)?They deal with different things. Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life, and evolution deals with the biodiversity. Has there been one fossil that almost incontrovertibly shows the existence of some link, between any two organisms?Every fossil is considered transitional, but you can look at the various fossils in human evolution. Assuming you subscribe to the evolutionary plateau theory, do you know the odds of something like this actually happening, or how complex and delicate the life systems of any given organism isYeah. About 99% of species on Earth are extinct. We were just lucky and got good genes. Think about these before you answer me, please...
My response in bold, obviously, because I'm too much of an evolution nazi to ignore :(

CGCoder
March 15th, 2010, 08:30 PM
school should never go into beliefs. if some of us still believe in santa, heck just let them believe i wouldnt want someone to go up to me and say "HAHAHA YOU BELIEVE THERES A GOD YOU ARE RETARDED! HEY EVERYONE! *name* BELIEVES IN GOD HAHAHA" just as much as a atheist wouldnt want someone to go up to them and say "WHAT YOU DONT BELIEVE IN GOD? GOD IS REAL SO SHUT THE * UP! HE EXISTS"

john c0nnor
March 15th, 2010, 08:47 PM
I personally don't believe anything about creationism, nor do I believe that the Earth is 6000 years old or how old they say it is. How to you explain the Dinosaurs?

See, this is a very common miscunseption, in the beginning of genises it states that the earth was "void of form" not that there was nothing. this leads me to belive that the dinosaurs and the earth were around long before biblical times and the reason the earth was void of form was becus of a catachlismeck event probably the war between god and satan, and that the "comet" that wiped out the dinosaurs was infact satan him self falling to earth.

So if this is true then god created the dinosaurs long before(as in millons of billons of years) genises 1:1.

If evolution if fact then please explain how in the big bang: nothing just an endless completely empty void can randomly become all this.

@ jolene: your post seirously offened me and I'm shure tons of other members.

@ feign: see above. and BTW the so called "christions" in that video were wack jobs and some of the stuff they were doing was down right demonic IMHO.

Yoshimi
March 15th, 2010, 08:51 PM
See, this is a very common miscunseption, in the beginning of genises it states that the earth was "void of form" not that there was nothing. this leads me to belive that the dinosaurs and the earth were around long before biblical times and the reason the earth was void of form was becus of a catachlismeck event probably the war between god and satan, and that the "comet" that wiped out the dinosaurs was infact satan him self falling to earth.

So if this is true then god created the dinosaurs long before(as in millons of billons of years) genises 1:1.

If evolution if fact then please explain how in the big bang: nothing just an endless completely empty void can randomly become all this.

@ jolene: your post seirously offened me and I'm shure tons of other members.

@ feign: see above. and BTW the so called "christions" in that video were wack jobs and some of the stuff they were doing was down right demonic IMHO.

Did you make an account just to be a troll?
Evolution≠The Big Bang
Evolution≠Abiogenesis
Evolution=Evolution

Hopefully that makes enough sense.

Bianca Paragon
March 15th, 2010, 08:56 PM
Do I detect a mentality of superiority? Watch what you say....
Of course! Because as an Adult whom can discern fact from fairytale; I'm quite obviously superior ;D

john c0nnor
March 15th, 2010, 09:09 PM
Did you make an account just to be a troll?
Evolution≠The Big Bang
Evolution≠Abiogenesis
Evolution=Evolution

Hopefully that makes enough sense.

No I am not a troll(not on PC any ways). what made you think that I was?

Ok ok I worded my last post badly but still can you please answer that for me?

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Did you make an account just to be a troll?
Evolution≠The Big Bang
Evolution≠Abiogenesis
Evolution=Evolution

Hopefully that makes enough sense.
UM LUCK, HELLO?! THAT IS JOHN CONNER! HE HOLDS THE SURVIVAL OF MANKIND IN HIS HANDS!

EDIT: What made you a troll? The fact you used the Bible to try to back up any argument. A book of people's opinions is not a platform on which to stand. It is more of a castle made of sand.

Mario The World Champion
March 15th, 2010, 09:13 PM
UM LUCK, HELLO?! THAT IS JOHN CONNER! HE HOLDS THE SURVIVAL OF MANKIND IN HIS HANDS!
Can he stop all the crap going on about 2012?

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 09:16 PM
Can he stop all the crap going on about 2012?

My sources seem baffled on this issue.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_z-5fprZti7s/SlZ1cdVsoqI/AAAAAAAAEf8/Trr3oKXnxAo/s400/magic8ball.jpg

Esper
March 15th, 2010, 09:16 PM
I would be fine with that if they kept evolution out of class. If you are going to teach something, show both sides of the story.
It's a common misconception that there are "two sides" to the evolution debate. There are people who believe in neither evolution nor Christian creationism. It is also a mistake to think that because you have an opposing view that you are somehow on the same level as the view you oppose. Evolution has tons of evidence behind it. Creationism has a fan club. No one would take you seriously if you wanted the creation story of the Flying Spaghetti Monster taught in school because it doesn't carry any weight. You just haven't realized that's what you're arguing for.

They should teach everything or nothing. That's my take.

By the way, science is still very young. People who call anything "scientific fact" in this day and age will be laughed at down the road. In the grand scheme of what can be known, we haven't so much as removed a single molecule from the surface. The future will prove us barbarians.
No one laughs at Socrates and other proto-scientists because they made mistakes and thought they were right. They're regarded as rather intelligent because of the methods they used and the conclusions they reached despite their limited knowledge of the universe.

pokejungle
March 15th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Scarf, two very well worded rebuttals. +1 respect points!

Feign
March 15th, 2010, 09:21 PM
See, this is a very common miscunseption, in the beginning of genises it states that the earth was "void of form" not that there was nothing. this leads me to belive that the dinosaurs and the earth were around long before biblical times and the reason the earth was void of form was becus of a catachlismeck event probably the war between god and satan, and that the "comet" that wiped out the dinosaurs was infact satan him self falling to earth.

So if this is true then god created the dinosaurs long before(as in millons of billons of years) genises 1:1.

If evolution if fact then please explain how in the big bang: nothing just an endless completely empty void can randomly become all this.

@ jolene: your post seirously offened me and I'm shure tons of other members.

@ feign: see above. and BTW the so called "christions" in that video were wack jobs and some of the stuff they were doing was down right demonic IMHO.

Why should there be those Christians who only believe in parts of the bible, instead of the most literal sense. For that matter, why are there different Christian sects?

Having your own theory like that doesn't help to explain evolutionism/creationism, it only serves to further your own views.

The proper way Christians have been discounting evolutionism is by saying that God is testing his people so as to see if they would stray from the path of enlightenment... Or w/e.

The funny thing is Science started off as Natural Philosophy... Something much more innocent, and had God more in mind as well.

However to that end... Why is it that crationists have to believe in the existence in creationism (as per the bible). Could they not accept the fact that some things are just not right in it. Or for that matter, would their faith be any more deminished, if that cow they were eating came into fruition as opposed to being evolved?

In the end, what difference does it make? I'm by no means advocating that creationism is just as correct as evolutionism. I am trying to show the absurdity of the argument as a whole. And would point out Occam's Razor in this case.

That is to say, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one: thus evolutionism makes the most sense.

Åzurε
March 15th, 2010, 09:33 PM
I like this method of responding. Stylistic plagiarism time!

Scientists still find out new things and try to disprove evolution. It wouldn't be science if they didn't try to disprove something. You're right about that. Unchallenged science isn't science at all. I would like to see some studies like this, but honestly I don't know what to look for. Care to pass a couple of links along?

Right here I think (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html) Unfortunately, my time is limited. I'm not running, but I'll get back to this tomorrow or something.

They deal with different things. Abiogenesis deals with the origin of life, and evolution deals with the biodiversity. You're absolutely correct here. I should have phrased this differently, but if you lump in no-macroevolution ideas with creationism and origins-by-chance with evolution, which many people do, you get the spirit of what I was trying ( and, admittedly failing) to communicate.

Every fossil is considered transitional, but you can look at the various fossils in human evolution. All fossils in this category I have seen are either very much human, very much not, or relatively easily disproven.

Yeah. About 99% of species on Earth are extinct. We were just lucky and got good genes. "It seems to require many thousands, perhaps millions, of successive mutations to produce even the easiest complexity we see in life now. It appears, naively at least, that no matter how large the probability of a single mutation is, should it be even as great as one-half, you would get this probability raised to a millionth power, which is so very close to zero that the chances of such a chain seem to be practically non-existent." -Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution

Unrelated- but inspired by- to Luck's responses, and from a more mathematical point of view, it's hard to understand where evolution makes sense. I think that evolution should be taught in schools- At the very least, it offers a non-creation alternative for those who desire it, but I also think showing the flaws that exist would be a definite improvement. Now flame away, 'cause I'm going to bed.

EDIT: geez, I took a long time to write that. One last thing-

However to that end... Why is it that creationists have to believe in the existence in creationism (as per the bible). Could they not accept the fact that some things are just not right in it. Or for that matter, would their faith be any more deminished, if that cow they were eating came into fruition as opposed to being evolved?- Feign Biblical compromise would nullify the entire thing. You keep assuming that the Bible is fiction without checking the evidence for it's reality or it's content, and as such you say things like this as if they were no big deal. Infallibility is a facet of God's nature, and the Bible is stated to be inspired by Him. If a part of it were untrue (I have seen NO data that outright disproves anything the Bible says is true), that would mean that God is untrustworthy, and that the entire Bible is null and void. That's why it's such a big deal. G'night again.

FreakyLocz14
March 15th, 2010, 09:52 PM
Yes, but it shouldn't be based on one religion. It should just suggest the idea that some higher being could have created the universe.

twocows
March 15th, 2010, 10:18 PM
It always saddens me to see fellow atheists being so intolerant of religion. I don't know why so many people have this obsession with making sure that everyone sees things exactly as they do.

I don't think creationism should be taught in schools because, to me, that implies indoctrination. However, I have no problems with teaching religion in general; it's a huge part of human history, it's integral to our culture, and it's extremely important in order to understand why society is the way it is. Exploring what sort of things people of a given religion believe helps us to gain a better understanding of why they act in certain ways and how society changed into what it is today.

PokemonLeagueChamp
March 16th, 2010, 01:52 AM
NarutoActor, if you're expecting to find fossils of ancient bacteria and jellyfish, you're outta luck. It's nearly impossible to fossilize soft-bodied organism. And even the best scientist knows gaps will exist in the fossil record, caused by erosion, volcanic eruptions, or even a particular organism that just didn't fossilize.

Timbjerr
March 16th, 2010, 10:23 AM
I just kinda skimmed through this thread, so correct me if this has been addressed, but why do people still consider being a evolutionist and being a Christian mutually exclusive to each other? I'm an evolutionist and a Christian and I don't feel like I'm betraying either of those identities by being the other as well. The bible was never meant to be taken literally, and almost all of the Book of Genesis is nothing more than a collection of Hebrew mythology with no basis in history.

I still believe creationism should be taught in schools...in a literature class. In terms of literary merit, the Judeo-Christian creation story is just as interesting as the stories of Greco-Roman mythology or Native American legend. Anyone who tries to pass Creationism off as true science is just lying to themselves. >_<

Cassino
March 16th, 2010, 11:36 AM
Neither needs to be taught; life is easier for all of us if nobody has to feel so inclined or pressured as to actually believe anything not relevant to their own personal existence.

.Fenris
March 18th, 2010, 03:28 PM
I disagree. That would confuse children. Also, teachers are bias.

Creationism should be taught in the context that "Some Christians believe that..." Evolution, on the other hand, should be taught as fact - because it is undeniable fact.


Ha, where is the original one, then? Can't prove the whole story, can't be fact...

Simply put, religion and science are both wrong.

Bianca Paragon
March 18th, 2010, 06:34 PM
Ha, where is the original one, then? Can't prove the whole story, can't be fact...

Simply put, religion and science are both wrong.
Some numbers recur infinitely. Just because we can't calculate the end of the number doesn't mean the number doesn't exist. Stop being a ****.

Yusshin
March 18th, 2010, 06:52 PM
I believe that it should be taught only in religious schools, since the parents send them to those schools specifically for a religious-based education.

Public schools should teach neither creationism or evolution, as to avoid angry individuals.

Bianca Paragon
March 18th, 2010, 08:25 PM
Public schools should teach neither creationism or evolution, as to avoid angry individuals.
...evolution is fact. It doesn't matter if it creates "angry individuals"; they'll have to let go of their fairy-tales sooner or later.

Yusshin
March 18th, 2010, 08:37 PM
...evolution is fact. It doesn't matter if it creates "angry individuals"; they'll have to let go of their fairy-tales sooner or later.

Evolution of humans from monkeys/apes/whatever has not been proven, just as creationism hasn't been proven either.

Perhaps other animals have evolved from other base life forms, but as it stands now, it is not fact that we came from monkeys/apes.

Many times evolutionists have tried to present data on evolution from monkeys and every time, it's been disproven.

So neither should be taught in school (in regards to Monkey->Human), since neither has been proven fact.

I took World History to the 20th Century about a month ago; evolution has not been proven.

Bianca Paragon
March 18th, 2010, 08:43 PM
Evolution of humans from monkeys/apes/whatever has not been proven, just as creationism hasn't been proven either.

Perhaps other animals have evolved from other base life forms, but as it stands now, it is not fact that we came from monkeys/apes.

Many times evolutionists have tried to present data on evolution from monkeys and every time, it's been disproven.

So neither should be taught in school (in regards to Monkey->Human), since neither has been proven fact.

I took World History to the 20th Century about a month ago; evolution has not been proven.
It's a Scientific Theory. Do you know what some other Scientific Theories are? How about Gravity? Are you going to try and argue against that, too?

Yusshin
March 18th, 2010, 08:47 PM
A theory is an idea, not a fact.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

guess or conjecture

contemplation or speculation

a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.

An assumption based on limited information or knowledge; a conjecture.

In other words, it's not proven, but it is an idea that they're considering, but there aren't enough facts to call it "fact". Thus why there's the word theory that exists, and the word fact. Two different things.

Esper
March 18th, 2010, 09:10 PM
Same website, looking up "scientific theory"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scientific+theory
systematic ideational structure of broad scope, conceived by the human imagination, that encompasses a family of empirical (experiential) laws regarding regularities existing in objects and events, both observed and posited. A scientific theory (http://www.reference.com/browse/scientific+theory) is a structure suggested by these laws and is devised to explain them in a scientifically rational manner.
Or, in other words, there are multiple meanings to the word "theory" and to argue that evolution is wrong because it is called a theory is silly and to call it wrong because it can't be labeled a "fact" is to ignore the mounds of observable evidence supporting it.

Yes, evolution is not a fact, but a "best guess". That's because it's the strongest guess with the most supporting it. Very little can be proven concretely if it can't be replicated in a lab - some things never can and never will be proven 100% - but that doesn't mean we can't look at the larger lab that we call the real world and use the natural experiments there to form and reform theories so that we can say "all available evidence points to evolution as the most likely process by which human beings came into existence."

Ineffable~
March 18th, 2010, 09:27 PM
Evolution is a natural idea. Natural selection is obvious. o_o;
Three male butterflies are living in an environment with birch trees (which have white bark, of course). One is light, and the others are dark. The light butterfly survives because it has better camouflage when it's hanging around a birch tree. The dark ones are not so lucky, and both get eaten. 3: Because their camouflage sucks. So the light one lives long enough to mate with a female and pass on his genes to his offspring, which will be light like he is. Eventually the population will approach this desirable light colour (without any one individual changing) since the light butterflies are surviving more consistently and passing on their genes (rightly so--it's difficult for a bird to spot a light butterfly against a light background like a birch tree...poor bird).
And that's evolution. Nothing baseless or unnatural.
*Totally did not steal that example from her biology class speaking of moths in the UK*
Um, what?
No school says "OMG YOU LOSER, YOU BELIEVE IN GOD, STOP BELIEVING." Pokejungle already explained it. Anyways, they only teach what they are teaching right now because there is evidence behind it. It isn't atheistic to believe in evolution or germ theory. When evidence comes forward and any theory is disproven, they change the curriculum.
True, even in our largely atheist society (cbf actually researching, but I think 16% of America is irreligious), "theistic" is considered the "moral norm" to some extent (I at least find implications that Christians can be better than atheists but not the other way around, i.e there's some implication, if perhaps not definite, of inferiority). Put simply, generally people would rather one believe than not believe. Just an example, my mother says I have bad moral character and believes church can correct it. unu;

And evolution and creationism do not contradict each other completely. You could assume some God created the world as a big puddle of mud and monera and said "lolhereyougo" and let them evolve into plants and animals and worms and stuff eventually into chordates.
...Just so some staunch creationist theists understand. d(''d)
Absolutely not! Two reasons.

1. Breaks separation between church and state.
2. Can be offensive.
...I suppose I simply fail to see how one is offended by that. 3:
I'm not offended when people talk about ideas that contradict pantheism. ~(bn_n)b

And as others have said, the course could simply be teaching about religion (for those who may pursue the knowledge, idk, maybe to be a major in theology), rather than teaching students to believe in said religion.

'w'

pokejungle
March 18th, 2010, 09:27 PM
...evolution is fact. It doesn't matter if it creates "angry individuals"; they'll have to let go of their fairy-tales sooner or later.
Thanks <3

Evolution doesn't explain how we came to be hunny buns o3o There are parts of (big 'E') Evolution that hypothesize that we are a descendant or a fork from chimpanzees.

But have you SEEN early humanoid remains? I mean it wouldn't even take a scientist to say "wow, yeah, I see both primate and humanoid qualities there".

Duuuuuuh. You uber-religites betta make your stories fit science or you're plum outta luck here.

Bianca Paragon
March 18th, 2010, 10:08 PM
A theory is an idea, not a fact.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory









In other words, it's not proven, but it is an idea that they're considering, but there aren't enough facts to call it "fact". Thus why there's the word theory that exists, and the word fact. Two different things.
Nice strawman. Now do what Scarf said and look up Scientific Theory.

.Fenris
March 19th, 2010, 12:52 AM
Some numbers recur infinitely. Just because we can't calculate the end of the number doesn't mean the number doesn't exist. Stop being a ****.

Let me get this straight, you're the one who is on a "ZOMG RUHLIGEON!" rampage, and I'm acting like an ass?
Same argument can be applied to God (or deity of your choice) existing, but we just haven't found our way to them yet.
Now, since this topic seems to be where everyone expresses their beliefs (and asininity, I might add), I believe that there is fact in Creationism and Evolution, as in that there must of been some of catalyst with the big bang and creation of the original one, else how did the gases and dust EXIST without something to create it.

Bianca Paragon
March 19th, 2010, 12:57 AM
Nope ~ that's where you're wrong. See, Science can say "I don't know, but I'd like to find out" when a problem arises that there's no answer to. Religion says "I don't know, so it must be God"

Magic
March 19th, 2010, 02:37 AM
Evolution of humans from monkeys/apes/whatever has not been proven, just as creationism hasn't been proven either.

Perhaps other animals have evolved from other base life forms, but as it stands now, it is not fact that we came from monkeys/apes.

Many times evolutionists have tried to present data on evolution from monkeys and every time, it's been disproven.

So neither should be taught in school (in regards to Monkey->Human), since neither has been proven fact.

I took World History to the 20th Century about a month ago; evolution has not been proven.


O______O

Humans didn't evolve from monkeys, no-one who actually knows or has studied evolution will ever say that we did.

Humans and Apes have a common ancestor, but we have evolved separately in different habitats and niches over millions of years to cause large phenotype differences thanks to variation and natural selection.

Actually, the line of Human evolution can be tracked quite successfully by fossil records.

As can horse evolution from a small deer-like animal.

As can the evolution of a fish to an amphibious animal with legs strong enough to walk on land.

As can the evolution of birds from the Velociraptor Genus.

So yeah, sorry to burst your bubble but Evolution is fact, it is supported by thousands and thousands of pieces of fossil evidence.

People always say you can't -see- evolution, but sure you can, just look at your pet dog. Features are bred in to dogs (and pastoral animals) for hundreds of years to emphasise features that we want them to have, as the animals become more and more genetically different (different breeds can vary a lot!) it gets more and more likely that they will become sexually isolated from the other breeds and ta-da! Speciation has occured, in the same principles of Evolution but under human control (and taking much less time).

Should Creationism be taught in schools? Sure, but it should be taught in RE/RS/Relgion Class/Whatever and be given to the children as a story not a fact. Evolution should be taught, it is scientific fact, without it there isn't much point in having biology in school at all really.

Guillermo
March 19th, 2010, 04:40 AM
I as a whole don't believe religion should be taught in school. They're trying to force a religion onto you, even if it doesn't seem like that. There are Churches out there, and if you want to believe in God and Jesus then go to one of them. I don't believe schools need to tell you everything a Church does.

Whilst evolution may not be a fact to some people, it's the best damn guess we have as to what happened, and what else are we going to turn to? Whatever a Scientist tells us, we'll more than likely believe. If the whole theory of evolving from monkeys/apes was wiped out, what else would we believe? We've got to have something to lean on, and if that's the closest estimate we have, then that's what we're going to use.

Should Creationism be taught in schools? Sure, but it should be taught in RE/RS/Relgion Class/Whatever and be given to the children as a story not a fact. Evolution, should be taught, it is scientific fact, without it there isn't much point in having biology in school at all really.
It doesn't matter what the hell a school teaches it as. Story, fact, fairytale, whatever. The fact is that the same thing is being said regardless in what context. Kids are gonna believe what their teacher says. For example, most schools have always taught that Captain Cook was the first person to Australia, but that's not true at all.

Magic
March 19th, 2010, 05:48 AM
It doesn't matter what the hell a school teaches it as. Story, fact, fairytale, whatever. The fact is that the same thing is being said regardless in what context. Kids are gonna believe what their teacher says. For example, most schools have always taught that Captain Cook was the first person to Australia, but that's not true at all.

I mostly meant in the context of Secondary Schools or High Schools where the children are older and less susceptible to the teacher's influence.

.Fenris
March 19th, 2010, 08:54 AM
Nope ~ that's where you're wrong. See, Science can say "I don't know, but I'd like to find out" when a problem arises that there's no answer to. Religion says "I don't know, so it must be God"

The **** are you on about? I was not arguing religion, I was arguing the existence of God.

parallelzero
March 19th, 2010, 09:17 AM
EDIT: Mizan, my threads never create flame wars. Ever.

*smack*

Okay, I'm stopping this now before it really gets out of hand. You've already gone off topic (the question was should creationism be taught, not the validity of religion overall), and this is just going in a bad direction. While the thread topic may be laced throughout the discussion, I'm not about to accept that as justification to leave the thread open when it's going down the wrong path anyways.