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UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 08:04 AM
Just wanted to find out how many Pokeholics here are atheist. I am personally.

If you are, why are you?

If not, why are you not?

Simple enough.

Zeph.
April 25th, 2010, 08:21 AM
I'm an Atheist. I have been since January this year.

I guess I just got fed up with religion. I felt under pressure thinking that there were rules to my life. The real world's good enough for me ;)

Dakota
April 25th, 2010, 08:23 AM
Not me. I'm a Muslim, thus, I believe in one god.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 08:24 AM
I'm an Atheist. I have been since January this year.

I guess I just got fed up with religion. I felt under pressure thinking that there were rules to my life. The real world's good enough for me ;)

Glad you actually have a good reason. A lot of people who consider themselves atheists these days are just rebelling kids who think it's the cool thing to do.

I became atheist essentially the minute my dad told me that he wouldn't tell me what to believe and that I could make my own choices.

Theodore Bruno
April 25th, 2010, 08:29 AM
I see myself more as an Agnostic Atheist. There's this thing with me involving Gnostics in general. Both Theists and Atheists.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 08:30 AM
I see myself more as an Agnostic Atheist. There's this thing with me involving Gnostics in general. Both Theists and Atheists.

Please elaborate on this "thing."

Theodore Bruno
April 25th, 2010, 08:35 AM
Please elaborate on this "thing."
A lot of them just rub off as jerks and it just boils down to, "What you believe in a god, you idiot, there is none!" or "What you don't believe in God, I hope you enjoy burning in Hell!" It's rather annoying, when people like them are so stubborn like they actually know %100 what awaits us after death.

Magik?!
April 25th, 2010, 08:46 AM
I'm not so much an Athiest as a Humanist. Though I believe there may be something, I don't believe it has any effect over us or anything. I guess I count as agnostic then? I was brought up in Christian schools and stuff, but my mum is buddhist and I encountered a lot of religions and I guess I decided that the religion doesn't actually matter, nor does the God or lack of it - Disasters and tragedies happen everywhere, same with 'miracles' and 'blessings'. If there is a God, it's not discriminatory nor does it mind whether we worship it or not - therefore I choose not to.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 08:46 AM
Not me. I'm a Muslim, thus, I believe in one god.

^ Same.

I won't go around telling people to believe in God, though. That's against Islam :< We're supposed to respect everyone (although I would prefer if people believed in God. What harm is there in believing in good morals? Noting what's written in my signature.)

Reginaldvonburger
April 25th, 2010, 08:48 AM
I'm a LeVeyan. Though, I don't actually believe in Satan, just the teachings of the church.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 08:49 AM
A lot of them just rub off as jerks and it just boils down to, "What you believe in a god, you idiot, there is none!" or "What you don't believe in God, I hope you enjoy burning in Hell!" It's rather annoying, when people like them are so stubborn like they actually know %100 what awaits us after death.

Reminds me of Christians who are labeled hypocrites and sanctimonious and lumped in with the televangelists when they really aren't.

If you can be complacent with your own view on religion, that's all you really need. The hateful atheists seem to drown out.

xJordan360
April 25th, 2010, 08:51 AM
Hello, I am a Wiccan. Otherwise known as an eclectic polytheist.

poopnoodle
April 25th, 2010, 08:56 AM
raised in a christian home and in a christian community, ended up asking myself "too many questions" and decided to abandon my faith. now i just don't get involved, though i might gripe occasionally about how destructive religion can be to the self and to society.

Guillermo
April 25th, 2010, 09:11 AM
^ Same.

I won't go around telling people to believe in God, though. That's against Islam :< We're supposed to respect everyone (although I would prefer if people believed in God. What harm is there in believing in good morals? Noting what's written in my signature.)
All comes down to the single person, Yusshin.

I'm an Atheist, and I like it this way. Facing what I know is a reality and not hoping or believing that there's some reason behind all the crap that goes on in the world. There's too much pain and suffering being thrown around for me to believe in a saviour.

Missingno.7-4468
April 25th, 2010, 09:14 AM
Personally, I am a Christian. However, I base all my beliefs directly on the Bible, and not on any one denomination. I was brought up with a lot of denominations(Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist), and I disagree with certain parts of all of them. My belief comes from not only my Christian upbringing, but also the fact that I have felt God's touch many, many times. He has answered my prayers in the most creative of ways.

Renege
April 25th, 2010, 09:15 AM
Maybe, someday. Right now, I'm an agnostic-type believer. My faith dwindles down each day, so we'll see where it ends up.

Guillermo
April 25th, 2010, 09:21 AM
Personally, I am a Christian. However, I base all my beliefs directly on the Bible, and not on any one denomination. I was brought up with a lot of denominations(Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist), and I disagree with certain parts of all of them. My belief comes from not only my Christian upbringing, but also the fact that I have felt God's touch many, many times. He has answered my prayers in the most creative of ways.
Please elaborate for me in which ways he's answered your prayers.

Throat
April 25th, 2010, 09:43 AM
I consider myself as being agnostic, we can't say anything about it based in logic... I can say I believe an omnopotent god doesn't exist, though.

Zeta Patchouli
April 25th, 2010, 09:59 AM
I am an atheist. I don't believe in a god, because I just don't believe in it. The idea seems ridiculious, to me. It's fine with me if you do believe in a god, in fact one of my best friends believes heavily in the christian God, but I don't. If you can accept that, then we won't have any problems.

EDIT: Also, there is another reason, but like Serene Grace, I won't say it, because a whole bunch of people will disagree with me, and probably flame me. It's not exactly personal, but I don't want to get flamed.

Serene Grace
April 25th, 2010, 10:00 AM
I'm an atheist, yeah. Why? For one, it's personal and, also if I did note it here, a lot of people will disagree so lets keep it at that.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 10:28 AM
I'm an atheist, yeah. Why? For one, it's personal and, also if I did note it here, a lot of people will disagree so lets keep it at that.

Lighten up. It's not like you're posting your vital signs or address. Jeez.

Timbjerr
April 25th, 2010, 10:32 AM
I am a confirmed Roman Catholic. That doesn't mean I'm one of those fundamentalist asses that will judge you for not believing in the same thing as them, nor do I condemn anything that is traditionally called a sin. I'm a "love thy neighbor" or "hate the sin but love the sinner" brand of Christian.

I believe in a god because life and existence itself is so deep and mysterious that the likelihood of us finding all the answers in earthly things is astronomically low.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Well, since I don't give a damn about being flamed because I'M aware that this is just a forum filled with people I will never meet and have no consequence to fear, I'm atheist because it's logical. No decent God in my mind would let murder, rape, and other atrocities to our society happen. On a more practical level, I haven't seen him or any of his "miracles." God was a clever little story made up by power-hungry and greedy imbeciles long ago to keep populations in check and weasel a few dollars out of it themselves.

I've had family members imprisoned because of lies, friends dead way too soon, and the universal softener I've always received is "he was taken for a reason, he's in a better place."

Bullsh--.

God's only looking out for himself, in that case - not my personal feelings and sanity.

Know how they say "God never gives you more than you can handle"? Tell that to the people on this planet who kill themselves every 30 seconds.

Religion is all an easily refutable pile of nonsense. A crutch to mask reality and placate a tortured soul.

Now flame away - I embrace it.

lx_theo
April 25th, 2010, 10:34 AM
This is the least confrontation thread about religion I've ever seen!

Well I'm an atheist. I never had any pressure growing up to be religious, so I never bought into any of it. I also hold a strong belief in the validity and the strength of the scientific method, of which from what I've seen, many religions would not pass as real when put through.

Yamikarasu
April 25th, 2010, 10:36 AM
I'm atheist... but I don't like these threads. >_<

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 10:45 AM
My goal was never a confrontation. The reason confrontation erupts on these types of threads is because people are small-minded enough to let some internet person behind a screen get to them.

Zeph.
April 25th, 2010, 10:56 AM
Forgive me, but how can you rant like you did a few posts back and not expect a confrontation?

I agree with you on it, don't get me wrong, but you can easily offend people with that.

Ayselipera
April 25th, 2010, 10:58 AM
I'm an atheist and I would explain, but it's rather long and drawn out and it's hard for me to explain just through words on a screen alone. I also respect others for what they believe in, whatever that may be. I just don't like when people pester me and tell me how I'm going to burn in hell. If that's what you think then great, but please just keep it to yourself.

With all that being said I really don't support when other atheists make fun of or try to degrade others for what they believe in. I see it often and I find it really disgusting. It gives all us nice atheists a bad rap. :(

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 10:59 AM
Well, since I don't give a damn about being flamed because I'M aware that this is just a forum filled with people I will never meet and have no consequence to fear, I'm atheist because it's logical. No decent God in my mind would let murder, rape, and other atrocities to our society happen. On a more practical level, I haven't seen him or any of his "miracles." God was a clever little story made up by power-hungry and greedy imbeciles long ago to keep populations in check and weasel a few dollars out of it themselves.

I've had family members imprisoned because of lies, friends dead way too soon, and the universal softener I've always received is "he was taken for a reason, he's in a better place."

Bullsh--.

God's only looking out for himself, in that case - not my personal feelings and sanity.

Know how they say "God never gives you more than you can handle"? Tell that to the people on this planet who kill themselves every 30 seconds.

Religion is all an easily refutable pile of nonsense. A crutch to mask reality and placate a tortured soul.

Now flame away - I embrace it.

Actually, I look at it this way:

God uses Earth as a test to confirm which humans are good-natured, and which humans aren't. He knows in advance, indeed, but He wants to see who can see past the wrong information given in the world, and perhaps they'll even change, at which by that point, God becomes aware of that, too. He wants humans to embrace Him naturally and not by force, since is it not better to be loved by will and not involuntarily? Earth is also a contest for the one we know as Satan, or Lucifer. It is said that this Djinn confronted God and refused to regard humans as the better, smarter being, and therefore Lucifer demanded for eternal life as to be given the time to prove to God that His creation is bad at heart. For thousands and thousands of years, Lucifer has influenced human society in a way to contradict God and in an attempt to prove the Creator wrong. His first act was the apple with Adam and Eve; ever since, Lucifer's influence has gripped society in many ways - television, music, etc. The media world has become more and more evidently anti-religious and Lucifer is pleased.

Those who commit sins that God is against are failing His "test". In my opinion, the people who are the victims will be recompensed later in life or in the afterlife, and those who commit such sins will be punished. Originally, these sins did not exist. Sin came to exist when Eve was tricked by the satanic reptile to consume the apple which gave all knowledge. Humans were good and had only knowledge of good in the beginning; after eating the apple, they gained knowledge of bad things, such as rape, murder, etc.

If Heaven was given to everyone, and everyone was forced to love God, Heaven would lose its value. Surely you know the saying "You don't know what you have until it's gone"? Well, likewise, you appreciate the value of things when you don't have it, but want it. If Heaven was given to everyone, no one would realize just how amazing it is.

God knows everything that we'll do, have done, and are presently doing. He sees everything. He doesn't stop some acts, though, because it's part of His "test". I've had horrible things happen to myself and people I've known, and I believe God interferes sometimes to grant karma. He rewards victims who stay strong afterwards, and He condemns those who do terrible, terrible things in their lifetime. I don't mean the little white lie here and there. He won't condemn someone who steals to be able to eat. He'll condemn murderers, rapists, etc. and people who preach against him. He rewards those who are charitable and live in good faith towards fellow man, and thwart the relentless attemps from Satan (or, Shai'tan) that try to change them negatively. It's all based on the intent of the person, and not the action itself. If you mean to do wrong, you will surely be punished. If you do wrong but unintentionally, you will be spared punishment.

This is all just my opinion. It's not a reflection of my religion at its core, but moreso how I've decided to interpret it. I believe the world makes a lot more sense when viewed the way that I see it, but of course, everyone is free to make their own judgments and believe in what they want. I'm just offering my insight on the whole thing.

Rich Boy Rob
April 25th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Yes. I was a Christian (mainly because school told me to be) until I was about 6 and realised that religion made no sense. Science has proof for it's theories, Religion bases itself on a book of stories that operate under the idea of "it's true because it says it is".

lx_theo
April 25th, 2010, 11:50 AM
Actually, I look at it this way:

God uses Earth as a test to confirm which humans are good-natured, and which humans aren't. He knows in advance, indeed, but He wants to see who can see past the wrong information given in the world, and perhaps they'll even change, at which by that point, God becomes aware of that, too. He wants humans to embrace Him naturally and not by force, since is it not better to be loved by will and not involuntarily? Earth is also a contest for the one we know as Satan, or Lucifer. It is said that this Djinn confronted God and refused to regard humans as the better, smarter being, and therefore Lucifer demanded for eternal life as to be given the time to prove to God that His creation is bad at heart. For thousands and thousands of years, Lucifer has influenced human society in a way to contradict God and in an attempt to prove the Creator wrong. His first act was the apple with Adam and Eve; ever since, Lucifer's influence has gripped society in many ways - television, music, etc. The media world has become more and more evidently anti-religious and Lucifer is pleased.

Those who commit sins that God is against are failing His "test". In my opinion, the people who are the victims will be recompensed later in life or in the afterlife, and those who commit such sins will be punished. Originally, these sins did not exist. Sin came to exist when Eve was tricked by the satanic reptile to consume the apple which gave all knowledge. Humans were good and had only knowledge of good in the beginning; after eating the apple, they gained knowledge of bad things, such as rape, murder, etc.

If Heaven was given to everyone, and everyone was forced to love God, Heaven would lose its value. Surely you know the saying "You don't know what you have until it's gone"? Well, likewise, you appreciate the value of things when you don't have it, but want it. If Heaven was given to everyone, no one would realize just how amazing it is.

God knows everything that we'll do, have done, and are presently doing. He sees everything. He doesn't stop some acts, though, because it's part of His "test". I've had horrible things happen to myself and people I've known, and I believe God interferes sometimes to grant karma. He rewards victims who stay strong afterwards, and He condemns those who do terrible, terrible things in their lifetime. I don't mean the little white lie here and there. He won't condemn someone who steals to be able to eat. He'll condemn murderers, rapists, etc. and people who preach against him. He rewards those who are charitable and live in good faith towards fellow man, and thwart the relentless attemps from Satan (or, Shai'tan) that try to change them negatively. It's all based on the intent of the person, and not the action itself. If you mean to do wrong, you will surely be punished. If you do wrong but unintentionally, you will be spared punishment.

This is all just my opinion. It's not a reflection of my religion at its core, but moreso how I've decided to interpret it. I believe the world makes a lot more sense when viewed the way that I see it, but of course, everyone is free to make their own judgments and believe in what they want. I'm just offering my insight on the whole thing.

Though that's what I believe whats wrong with religion. No offense, but when something comes up that questions the belief, people often either just deny it or rewrite their own interpretations that work around those inconsistencies rather than actually confronting it as an issue in the belief. There are also a few key logical errors in your interpretation, but its not worth going into that sort of detail.

Like I said, no offense, I'm just trying to get across one of the main fundamentals of why I'm an atheist in contrast to a major reason people are religious. You can believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. Its just good to know all of your cards before you make your bet.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 11:53 AM
Though that's what I believe whats wrong with religion. No offense, but when something comes up that questions the belief, people often either just deny it or rewrite their own interpretations that work around those inconsistencies rather than actually confronting it as an issue in the belief. There are also a few key logical errors in your interpretation, but its not worth going into that sort of detail.

Like I said, no offense, I'm just trying to get across one of the main fundamentals of why I'm an atheist in contrast to a major reason people are religious. You can believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe. Its just good to know all of your cards before you make your bet.

Yup, as said, people are free to make their own judgments and decisions, and to choose their own beliefs. No one should ever force someone else to think the same way if that person doesn't want to.

Although, I don't rewrite my interpretation for conveniency. What I believe is what I believe, and I won't just change it freely. I disapprove of that.

NarutoActor
April 25th, 2010, 11:54 AM
Nah I am not an atheist. Think of the most complicated machinery. Okay that was created. Now think about this more complicated universe it just make sense that there has to be a creator.

RuRuBell
April 25th, 2010, 11:58 AM
I'm an Atheist, and I do believe that I've been one for as long as I can remember. I was raised as a Muslim and I went along with it because that's what I was told I was, but I was never religious nor did I hold any true belief in god. It didn't seem right or fair to me to practice something I didn't believe in.

I'm just happy that my parents were open-minded enough to accept that when I told them that.

Missingno.7-4468
April 25th, 2010, 12:35 PM
Please elaborate for me in which ways he's answered your prayers.

Well, there've been many different times in which He has answered my prayers. The most recent has been when I(Along with some other people) prayed for someone at my mom's work who was going through a LOT of financial trouble and just trouble in general. It was only about a few days later when she got many of what some people would call "lucky breaks." She got money from somewhere that hadn't been giving her money, and she got away from her husband who had been very bad and such.(Long story there...)

Also, I am actually lucky to be alive, TBH. When I was about 4, I was taking swimming lessons. One day, I somehow got into the deep end of the pool, and I actually did in fact drown. However, I had a "usual" near death experience. The strange thing about it though, is that the woman who pushed me back was my grandma's best friend(who had died a few years before I was born), and I actually told people her name and everything. I had never even heard stories about her before.


Now, to get into why God "lets" bad things happens. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, He cursed the world so that they would have to work to farm their crops. Then there was the whole thing with the Flood(Which, by the way, was what separated Pangaea and made all the fossils we see now...), which basically brought all the natural disasters and such.

Now, all the things like rape, murder, war, etc. are all caused by our sinful nature, and not by God. God gave us the ability to think for ourselves, which lets those foul things come into our minds. Because of our sinful nature(Which ALL people have BTW. Even the most devout of Christians.), we do bad things and such. NOBODY is free from sin.

Hantsuki
April 25th, 2010, 12:42 PM
I don't follow any particular religion because I think they are all contradictory (no offense), but I think it would be too extreme to call myself an atheist. If I'm not mistaken, being an atheist means that you believe there is no "god" and I believe there is some "god" or creator who started everything, just not sure who it is.

As a matter of fact, I learned about a new religion in my early American literature class, deism, and I think that suits me more. Basically, I think that some "god" or creator put together everything that exists now and he just let it all set up by itself and he doesn't interfere with other people's lives. I mean, if you didn't study for big exam the night before and you're just praying that some miracle will allow you to pass the test, then I don't think it's going to happen. Basically, you control your own fate.

Sneeze
April 25th, 2010, 01:16 PM
I'm agnostic but leaning more towards atheist. I have never really settled on a single belief and to say there definitely isn't a god requites just as much faith as to say there definitely is imo.

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 01:51 PM
The only thing I can really describe myself as is a theist.

Do I believe in a God, or some kind of God-like force beyone human understanding? Yes. As a primarily logical person, I feel conflicted about the fact that I don't have any logical backing (I for one reject the "life-is-so-complicated-there-HAS-to-be-a-creator" argument) for it, && it's largely based in gut intuition, but it's one of the few stances I take that I can't back up with facts or statistics. It's a personal perojative.

That being said, I think it's fooling to identify with any one religion. I've studied && encounter a handful of religions in my life: I was raised Calvinist, went to school with Catholics, Protestants, && Jews, related to Muslims, am neighbours with members of tribal faiths, && I've studied && visited the two of the Ba'hai Houses of Worship. That being said, having seen && learned of these religions with their roots in Europe, the Middle East, Southern Africa, && India, I've concluded that despite differences in lore, characters, && contexts, all the Holy texts of these religions adhere to the same fundamental ideals: the creation of a commonly recognized sense of morality to facilitate the creation of stable, humane societies.

I feel these sorts of things may have been "God inspired", but I can't say for certain. Religious leaders, political figures, && others who claim "God is on our side" are hypocrites. If mankind is a fundamentally flawed && impure race, no human being has the right to say they understand God's will or know what the "Godlike" thing is to do.

Many religions say that man was made in God's image. I could make a self-portrait out of macoroni && crazy glue. That doesn't mean my macaroni art is a perfect replica me. Nor does my macaroni art understand why I made it.

I feel that there's some kind of overarching power in the universe. Even if there isn't, the makings of the universe are presently largely beyond any form of human comprehension, religious or otherwise.

There's more productive things humanity can be doing than mulling over the subtilties of how we got here. Ie, finding concievable, affordable, && effective ways of guaranteeing that we're still around for 22nd century.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 01:54 PM
Many religions say that man was made in God's image. I could make a self-portrait out of macoroni && crazy glue. That doesn't mean my macaroni art is a perfect replica me. Nor does my macaroni art understand why I made it.

The only reason why I don't agree with that is that people took it so literally. God certainly doesn't look like a human; I wholeheartedly agree that anything you can think of, draw, etc. is not God, because God cannot be depicted by the human mind. Again, my belief :<

I believe when God stated He made us in "His image", that the text meant in the image of goodness. Humans were good before Eve consumed a portion of the apple that allowed her and Adam to think sinfully.

I find it silly if someone believes God is really a man floating on a cloud. I hope I don't offend anyone with that o-o;;;

institutions
April 25th, 2010, 02:06 PM
I guess most people would call me what you described as one of those teens who is atheist 'cause its cool'.
Although, I believe those people are mostly social who brag to their friends about their non-faith as much as possible to make them look cool.
I'm pretty antisocial though, only have a few friends and don't really talk much.
I believe in fact.
I also become overwhelmed with pity and something else, it might be anger, when I see religious shows on TV or billboards or overhear people say 'do this or you'll go to hell.'
I know I should accept peoples faiths and let them believe it, but it's hard when so many wars are fought because of it.
I have a lot of thoughts in my head right now, so I really can't expand upon this just yet, i'm sorry.

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 02:14 PM
I believe when God stated He made us in "His image", that the text meant in the image of goodness. Humans were good before Eve consumed a portion of the apple that allowed her and Adam to think sinfully.

That's the original context I got out of it as well, but a linguist of mine (who reinforced it from a book he'd read by a religious philosopher) asserted that given the historical context, the phrase is literally meant to mean that God made man in his image, meaning both physically && mentally (this usage of the word "man" referring to the male sex).

From what I've seen, the use of the word "man" to refer to the human race is an anomoly which exists only in the English language. In my mother tongue of Afrikaans, the word that translates to the English word "humanity" is the same as the English word for "mankind". The reference to the male sex equating to all of the human race isn't even present. The same exists in isiXhosa && Zulu, two other languages spoken in my country. Having lernt German in school, I've found the same thing to exist in that language as well.

Another example of this is present in the United States Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal..." In historical context, this literally meant males only. White, Protestant, land-owning males, to be more specific.

It's only been recently that the word "man" in the English language has come to be similar to "humanity". That being said, if the linguists are to be believed, the original writers of Genesis literally meant that God made man (as in the male, Adam) in his image, in all respects.

(Women were just the upgraded version. =D)

Izanagi
April 25th, 2010, 02:15 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 02:24 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

There are other things that are odd like that, too. The following are things we learnt in the 1900s:

- How humans and animals reproduce (embryo, sperm, bones before tissue, etc.)
- How wind helps with the rain cycle
- How at the bottom of the sea, there are creatures who create their own light
- How the universe is always expanding

Yet, all of this was written 1,400 years ago in a book that is very, very detailed about it. A book spread by a man who memorized it without even knowing how to read or write.

That's the original context I got out of it as well, but a linguist of mine (who reinforced it from a book he'd read by a religious philosopher) asserted that given the historical context, the phrase is literally meant to mean that God made man in his image, meaning both physically && mentally (this usage of the word "man" referring to the male sex).

Although, that religious philospher is just stating what he believes. That man is but a man. I believe that he merely stated his own opinion about the text, and that it shouldn't be taken to heart really. Knowing the complexity of the Holy Books, it is quite possible that the use of "His image" in this section still referred to the goodness of God. After all, the most recent of Holy Books can't even be translated properly from its original version. There are a lot of translation errors because the text is just too profound, too amazing. The book can't even be editted because any modifications would be easily spotted. If most people of that language (Arabic) can't even reproduce their own language, how can someone be expected to translate it properly?

That's beside the point, though. The philosopher is allowed his opinion; the title of "philosopher" doesn't mean he's necessarily right, though. He's still a man who's speculating. I still remain with the belief that the text meant in "His image" meaning the goodness of God, and not that God was literally a man that we see before us.

OMGitzzCourtney
April 25th, 2010, 02:25 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

Makes more sense to me than religion. :/
Stuff like that happens in the solar systems all the time.

OT:
Me, personally, am an on and off atheist...I can't seem to make up my mind as to whether I believe in a religion or not.

Izanagi
April 25th, 2010, 02:35 PM
Derr hurr, makes more sense to me, durr herr.

Still doesn't explain how that makes sense. Plus, didn't the Big Bang create the solar systems? How does something that only happened once happen all the time?

Tinhead Bruce
April 25th, 2010, 02:53 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

The Big Bang did not come from nowhere. It came from a piece of matter so infinitesimally small that one cannot even begin to imagine it. Just pointing out that there's a difference between 0.0000.... forever and 0.

The one thing I find frustrating about both religion and science (they aren't mutually exclusive by the way, as so many believe) is their great need to explain everything, and provide a rational reasoning. Those who are religious have an answer to everything (God), and scientists have a need to understand absolutely everything and and not content with the fact that some things just absolutely cannot be explained.

That didn't necessarily come out the way I wanted it to, but I'm sure that even if I edited it for a year I wouldn't be perfectly happy with it.

Anyways, as to my beliefs, I'm happy to say that I legitimately don't have a firm stance on religion. I think that I believe in a higher power, or God, but I have no idea what God did or did not do. I have no problem accepting some sort of theory that God created the Big Bang, or evolution. That's where I think people get caught up. I believe that vocal minorities on every side muddy the water for everyone else, and create an unreasonable view that you have to be on side or the other. If God does in fact exist, it doesn't mean that all the theories that scientists have come up with are false. Many who are blinded by their theism or anti-theism do not like that, but I believe that that could possibly be the best explanation. Anyways, this whole thing may not make sense, but just ask if you want me to elaborate or something.

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 02:55 PM
Although, that religious philospher is just stating what he believes. That man is but a man. I believe that he merely stated his own opinion about the text, and that it shouldn't be taken to heart really. Knowing the complexity of the Holy Books, it is quite possible that the use of "His image" in this section still referred to the goodness of God. After all, the most recent of Holy Books can't even be translated properly from its original version. There are a lot of translation errors because the text is just too profound, too amazing. The book can't even be editted because any modifications would be easily spotted. If most people of that language (Arabic) can't even reproduce their own language, how can someone be expected to translate it properly?
This is basically the centrepiece of my argument. None of us have the ability to say we understand the true intention of any of those books, nor the intention of God.

I've seen truth in every religion I've ever encountered. I've also seen absolute bogus in every religion I've ever encountered.

Mistranslations are all too common, even moreso now, as the original Aramaic/Arabic texts are now gone. Even today, we have words that don't exist in other languages && literal translations make no sense unless the speaker is fully bilingual. As Arabic && Aramaic texts were translated to Greek, then to Latin, then to the languages of Europe && eventually Africa, there's so much room for error that entire passages could have lost their original intent.

If there's one thing that's common though, it's that the same, most basic concept of right && wrong exists in all religions. The most general sense of morality && living a virtuous life... that, I believe, is the God-inspired notion that found its way into the various world religions, with only stories && names changing to fit different cultures.

A devotion to those ideals, I feel, is more righteous than devotion to any one religious sect.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 03:08 PM
If there's one thing that's common though, it's that the same, most basic concept of right && wrong exists in all religions. The most general sense of morality && living a virtuous life... that, I believe, is the God-inspired notion that found its way into the various world religions, with only stories && names changing to fit different cultures.

That's the amazing thing. The biggest religions show what's right and what's wrong, and that's what formed our basic laws of today. There's really not much of a difference in their stories, either, or the morals and values they teach. We should take the similarities and the divine things from the books, rather than use the differences to hurt other people or differ ourselves from other human beings. No one is better than anyone; no religion is better than another. I firmly believe we all worship the same God (assuming you're religious), but we have different ways of worshipping Him - perhaps cultural differences came into effect, I'm not sure.

We should all just respect each other. I think that's what it comes down to, really. Respect everyone's opinions and ideals.

Sneeze
April 25th, 2010, 03:11 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

Yet, you see it as perfectly possible that a god can come out of no-where and create something out of nothing?

And the thing is, not everything does make sense, there are some things in science we may never know, but the same can be said about religion. And to be perfectly honest, I like it that way, if we knew everything life would be boring.

Izanagi
April 25th, 2010, 03:13 PM
Well I don't think he came out of nowhere. He's always been there.

Eternal Nightmare
April 25th, 2010, 03:14 PM
Well I consider myself an atheist but there are time when I elaborate on things like how did life for everything on earth began ya know. I believe strongly in the theory that we, human beings, have evolved from simpler life forms but where did those lifeforms come from ehham no one will really know the answer to a question like that but I disagree with the saying some divine deity made life ya know. My mom told me to follow whatever I want to believe in life and to me everything must have proof. I also feel that's it unecessary to be bound by a certain code of conduct or rules in life, like, its your life make the most of it. Have fun, live, love, laugh will ya. Peoples children curse up storms in my school but the next second they call themselves quote unquote christians and gods children...to me it seems that are not restricting themselves to the rules that are set for them and that is what life really is...minus government laws lol

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 03:32 PM
That's the amazing thing. The biggest religions show what's right and what's wrong, and that's what formed our basic laws of today. There's really not much of a difference in their stories, either, or the morals and values they teach.
Perhaps not in the 3 big monotheistic religions, the "brothers of the book". But what I find fascinating is how those three religions, when compared to the tribal traditions down here, have such starkly different stories, but an identical code of ethics... that's consistency in human conscious, which I see as God-inspired.

I firmly believe we all worship the same God (assuming you're religious), but we have different ways of worshipping Him
Now that you bring it up, I'm not entirely sure if I'm what people'd call religious. I've visited Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, && other houses of worship, but as more of an observer than an attendee. I like a lot of what the people have had to say, but my feelings on organized religion remain the same. I feel that the fact that I try to live my life virtuously is more "religious" than going to Church every day && singing Bible songs for an hour, then blantantly disregarding the teachings focused on for the rest of the week. But that's just me.

perhaps cultural differences came into effect, I'm not sure.
That's what I believe it to be. Chrisitians were culturally oppressed by Romans at the time of the New Testament, thus you have oppressors such as the "Anti-Christ" bearing resemblence to the Roman occupational governments && emperors. Muslims were physically oppressed by the powers-that-were in the Arab peninsula, thus such emphasis on defending one's right to worship is placed in Islam. Tribal traditions here were allowed to develop prior to the arrival of we the Europeans, thus emphasis on the human relationship with nature, rather than more secular outside forces, take priority. The Ba'hai faith is more modern && it developed across the globe rather than with one specific ethnic group, thus a global perspective on spirtuality is practiced rather than the readings && followings of a specific people.

But in the end, though, they all have the same core beliefs. That's what I follow.

Sneeze
April 25th, 2010, 03:35 PM
Well I don't think he came out of nowhere. He's always been there.

Well you could argue that the particles that exploded have always been there, they just didn't meet the right conditions for a while until the big bang.

And if he has always been there, why did he wait until a certain point before creating the universe?

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 03:39 PM
Now that you bring it up, I'm not entirely sure if I'm what people'd call religious. I've visited Churches, Mosques, Synagogues, && other houses of worship, but as more of an observer than an attendee. I like a lot of what the people have had to say, but my feelings on organized religion remain the same. I feel that the fact that I try to live my life virtuously is more "religious" than going to Church every day && singing Bible songs for an hour, then blantantly disregarding the teachings focused on for the rest of the week. But that's just me.

I went to church most of my life, actually, before I became a Muslim. I've never visited a mosque.

I, too, feel that by living your life the way doing charitable, kind things, and looking out for your fellow man while being loyal to what you believe in, is the way God intended for the books to be used. I don't think He minds if you don't go to church or a mosque on a specific day. I think He just wants you to recognize Him as being there, having always been there after all, and just to live in a fashion He might name divine.

As long as you don't fall prey to satanic references, I think God will be pleased with you :]

Also, when I say "you", it might be a bit confusing... "You" in this sense means the general human population. In French, we have "vous" to detail that, but we don't have that in English, so it's a bit confusing @-@ I mean mankind, though, and not YOU directly lol If that makes sense.

Sneeze:

That's a question you can ask Him when you pass on. No human knows the answer to that.

FaithInMe
April 25th, 2010, 03:42 PM
Now, to get into why God "lets" bad things happens. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, He cursed the world so that they would have to work to farm their crops.

Not true, god (if one actually exists) is taught as being benevolent.
The very meaning of benevolence contradicts the idea of invoking a curse on humanity.

Also, Lucifer was mentioned earlier.
Lucifer literally translates as "light bringer", why oh why is the light bringer the bad guy in christian religion.
It is said that god created heaven and the angels before the earth and humanity, and that he asked the angels to love humanity more than him. Lucifer disagreed with this and refused to love an imperfect race more than his father. Thus being condemned to rule over hell for eternity for essentially being a rebellious child.

Another thing that makes no sense, the concept that eating an apple gave humanity the knowledge of good and evil.
Before that happened they believed there was only good.
Lets have a think, what is good? If thats all there is then it isnt anything at all.
You cant have good without evil. So as far as that goes, to begin with there was complete, childlike naivety.
Seriously, religion cant handle the big bang theory, which I believe recently has been completely proven and re-enacted in Geneva, but is completely fine with eating fruit gives you the knowledge of good and evil thus creating original sin?

As far as my own beliefs go, I dont believe in god. To me he's like an invisible friend for adults.
In saying that, I find the concept of religion intriguing.
Ive read the bible over and over.
Ive read the qur'an (a translated version obviously) a number of times.
Ive read buddhist scripture, although I disagree with buddhism being considered a religion. Its not. Not really. If anyone needs explanation Ill be happy to oblige.
As far as Im concerned, religion was originally created as the earliest form of governing a people. It offered rules to live by but it also gave people something to believe in.
It just got more and more warped by different races as time went on. New religions were created, old religions were lost. Whatever.

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 03:49 PM
I went to church most of my life, actually, before I became a Muslim. I've never visited a mosque.
There's a mosque in my town... I've visited there once or twice. One thing I've noticed is that, contrary to how they're portrayed in the media as a result of radicalist sects, the Muslims I've encountered have been much more accepting, tolerant, and willing to consider && converse with those who have opposing views. I was accepted as a guest there && had a nearly hour long discussion with the Imam after services, whereas two of the three churches I attended && tried to ask questions at scorned me && gave me a "wth-are-you-even-doing-here" approach.

Also, when I say "you", it might be a bit confusing... "You" in this sense means the general human population. In French, we have "vous" to detail that, but we don't have that in English, so it's a bit confusing @-@ I mean mankind, though, and not YOU directly lol If that makes sense.
We have the same thing in Afrikaans. "Julle" is our equivalent to the French "Vous". English is one of the very few languages I've met where there isn't a word for plural "You", but I know a lot of people in the U.S. use "Y'all", or say "You guys" as if it was one word.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 03:57 PM
Also, Lucifer was mentioned earlier.
Lucifer literally translates as "light bringer", why oh why is the light bringer the bad guy in christian religion.
It is said that god created heaven and the angels before the earth and humanity, and that he asked the angels to love humanity more than him. Lucifer disagreed with this and refused to love an imperfect race more than his father. Thus being condemned to rule over hell for eternity for essentially being a rebellious child.

Actually, the Christian version is that Lucifer was an angel created by God who refused to kneel before humans. He was extremely vein and was banished by God to Hell, where Lucifer currently rules. God is not Lucifer's father. According to Christianity, the only "son" God has is Jesus (and if you want to broaden on some of the things taught, Christianity also teaches that every human is the daughter and son of God, but I don't believe that's to be taken literally).

In the Qu'ran, Lucifer is a Djinn who also refused to kneel before humans because he did not believe humans were better than Djinns. He told God that he was going to prove Him wrong - that humans were actually evil at heart, and not benevolent as God said. He was granted eternal life as to try and prove God wrong, while God looked down on the foolish Djinn. God rules over Hell, not Lucifer. Lucifer is merely a presence now who seeks to corrupt humanity with atheism and, I'm assuming, polytheism. He uses many resources to attempt to corrupt us as to prove the Almighty Creator incorrect (the media, being the biggest one).

Contrary to popular belief, Djinns are not "demons". There are good Djinns, and there are bad Djinns. Djinns generally even believe in God. It was a separate race which lacked intelligence, but acquired mystical capabilities instead. Humans were deemed the intelligent species, while angels are but mere slaves of God - slaves incapable of going against God's will and incapable of thinking for themselves.

Same basic story, but a bit different from each other at the same time. Lucifer is the "misleading light in the darkness", the bringer of false light. He is therefore the Anti-Christ of both the Bible and the Qu'ran.

I haven't read the Torah or heard anything about it, so I can't state anything about it.

So as far as that goes, to begin with there was complete, childlike naivety.

Indeed, and that is why Eve was so easily deceived by the satanic reptile. The naiveness of a child is the innocence before knowing what's bad. It is after she consumed the apple that her naivety was lost.

Seriously, religion cant handle the big bang theory

Although it was written 1,400 years ago that the Big Bang had happened, and that it was the "separating of the Heavens and the universe into two unique places". It is also stated that the universe is always growing ("expanding"), something discovered in the 1,900s.

All of that was explained specifically in the Qu'ran (I can't remember it being in the Bible, unfortunately). Maybe it seems farfetch'd, and perhaps you see us as gullible, but it makes sense to us. The fact it was stated as a reason in the 600s, way before speculation on the subject, just re-enforces that.

There's a mosque in my town... I've visited there once or twice. One thing I've noticed is that, contrary to how they're portrayed in the media as a result of radicalist sects, the Muslims I've encountered have been much more accepting, tolerant, and willing to consider && converse with those who have opposing views. I was accepted as a guest there && had a nearly hour long discussion with the Imam after services, whereas two of the three churches I attended && tried to ask questions at scorned me && gave me a "wth-are-you-even-doing-here" approach.

Indeed, from my experience with both religions, Christianity is a religion that followers believe they must force on others, and scorn those who disbelieve them. That's why in history, Christians are the worst for converting people and killing those who opposed (in Canada, Christian Europeans kidnapped aboriginals and turned them Christian; in America, there was a huge Indian manslaughter because of different beliefs). In Islam, we are opposed to that, and we are taught to accept everyone's views and to respect everyone. An example would be when Arabia took over Spain for 800 years. Are the Spanish Muslim today? They could have been, but no, the majority are still Catholic because the Muslims never forced it on them.

Of course, there are good people and bad people in every religion and country, as are there the rare extremists in every religion on Earth. I'm sure some Muslims forced their religion on others, and I'm sure some Christians refuse to force it and tolerate others' religious choices. The examples above are just some major, historical examples of tolerancy differences between Christianity and Islam.

icomeanon6
April 25th, 2010, 03:57 PM
There is exactly as much proof that God exists as there is that anyone besides you (yes, you personally, whoever is reading this) is self-aware. You have no way of proving that anyone besides you is conscious. It is equally likely that they are all nothing but a mass of cells operating entirely by scientific laws and not by their own volition. The assumption that there is a creator is no more absurd than your assumption that everyone else is as conscious as you are.

That being said, I am a Catholic, and mostly for pragmatic reasons. I have thought too much and too hard about the logistics of a being like God to have any definite answer concerning his existence and true nature. Regardless, I still tend to believe in him because I consider the stability of my family to be more important than my juvenile questioning about the nature of the universe. My parents worked too hard providing a good upbringing for me and my brothers for me to be to go and break their hearts because I doubt aspects of our faith. I don't know how closely I'll follow the church once I'm an adult, but for now I think I owe my parents enough respect to believe what they say for now.

FaithInMe
April 25th, 2010, 04:10 PM
Actually, the Christian version is that Lucifer was an angel created by God who refused to kneel before humans because he did not believe humans were better than Djinns. He was extremely vein and was banished by God to Hell, where Lucifer currently rules. God is not Lucifer's father. According to Christianity, the only "son" God has is Jesus (and if you want to broaden on some of the things taught, Christianity also teaches that every human is the daughter and son of God, but I don't believe that's to be taken literally).

In the Qu'ran, Lucifer is a Djinn who also refused to kneel before humans. He told God that he was going to prove Him wrong - that humans were actually evil at heart, and not benevolent as God said. He was granted eternal life as to try and prove God wrong, while God looked down on the foolish Djinn. God rules over Hell, not Lucifer. Lucifer is merely a presence now who seeks to corrupt humanity with atheism and, I'm assuming, polytheism. He uses many resources to attempt to corrupt us as to prove the Almighty Creator incorrect (the media, being the biggest one).

Same basic story, but a bit different from each other at the same time. Lucifer is the "misleading light in the darkness", the bringer of false light. He is therefore the Anti-Christ of both the Bible and the Qu'ran.

I haven't read the Torah or heard anything about it, so I can't state anything about it.



Indeed, and that is why Eve was so easily deceived by the satanic reptile. The naiveness of a child is the innocence before knowing what's bad. It is after she consumed the apple that her naivety was lost.



Although it was written 1,400 years ago that the Big Bang had happened, and that it was the "separating of the Heavens and the universe into two unique places". It is also stated that the universe is always growing ("expanding"), something discovered in the 1,900s.

All of that was explained specifically in the Qu'ran (I can't remember it being in the Bible, unfortunately). Maybe it seems farfetch'd, and perhaps you see us as gullible, but it makes sense to us. The fact it was stated as a reason in the 600s, way before speculation on the subject, just re-enforces that.



Indeed, from my experience with both religions, Christianity is a religion that followers believe they must force on others, and scorn those who disbelieve them. That's why in history, Christians are the worst for converting people and killing those who opposed (in Canada, Christian Europeans kidnapped aboriginals and turned them Christian; in America, there was a huge Indian manslaughter because of different beliefs). In Islam, we are opposed to that, and we are taught to accept everyone's views and to respect everyone. An example would be when Arabia took over Spain for 800 years. Are the Spanish Muslim today? They could have been, but no, the majority are still Catholic because the Muslims never forced it on them.

Of course, there are good people and bad people in every religion and country, as are there the rare extremists in every religion on Earth. I'm sure some Muslims forced their religion on others, and I'm sure some Christians refuse to force it and tolerate others' religious choices. The examples above are just some major, historical examples of tolerancy differences between Christianity and Islam.


I didnt mean father as a literal term.
Its more as in a creator sense that its used.
And what you said about Lucifer is basically the same thing as what I said.
Im actually studying christian Theology, so there really is very little that can be argued against me with as far as that goes.

Im also of the belief that something cannot be created from nothing.
You cant build a house when no materials exist.
Same concept, but on a more universal level.
Science has claimed the moment of creation. Thats just the way it is Im afraid.

Also, religion has been the major source of all controversy and intolerance in the world.
Almost every major war has had something to do with religion in its back story.
Racial intolerance is, not to a large extent, preached by many religions.
Its also the major source of sexism and fascism.

Neo Pikachu
April 25th, 2010, 04:15 PM
I am a confirmed Roman Catholic, though I don't practice all of the things that religion expects, such was trying to convert non-believers. I believe that as human beings, we should each have the right to make our own choices with regards to faith, as long as the practices of that faith do not encourage harm to society. With that in mind, I am highly against religious fanatics that think killing "infidels" or anyone that doesn't follow their religion through destructive and deadly means is acceptable and even encouraged. Meanwhile, I don't believe applying force upon people that clearly don't want to practice the faith will ever work in a genuine, spiritual way.

As for why I'm Christian, I feel that deep within my heart and soul, following the word of God and Jesus Christ is the right thing to do, even if not everyone agrees with it. I don't pray often, mostly because I'm already grateful for all that God has already given me.

As for understanding science, I just feel that science is the collection of recognized characteristics and patterns of the elements of this world to be used as a tool for mankind's benefit and understanding. Very often, it just seems like to me, there are instances where science tries to go beyond its applicable bounds, make assumptions, and take itself out of context. I do believe there is a spiritual side to life, and I feel that because science can't tap into or understand this, it simply assumes it doesn't exist.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:21 PM
I didnt mean father as a literal term.
Its more as in a creator sense that its used.
And what you said about Lucifer is basically the same thing as what I said.
Im actually studying christian Theology, so there really is very little that can be argued against me with as far as that goes.

Im also of the belief that something cannot be created from nothing.
You cant build a house when no materials exist.
Same concept, but on a more universal level.
Science has claimed the moment of creation. Thats just the way it is Im afraid.

Also, religion has been the major source of all controversy and intolerance in the world.
Almost every major war has had something to do with religion in its back story.
Racial intolerance is, not to a large extent, preached by many religions.
Its also the major source of sexism and fascism.

Ah, okay. I thought you meant it literally lol xD

And you seem more like the alchemist-type. To create something, you need a basic material. If not, you can't make anything. I'm sure God being all-powerful and all could breach that theory of life, though. In my opinion, it is as the books say: if God wants something, He merely says "be" and it "is".

And it really is too bad that the intolerancy between religions caused such bad things to happen. I don't believe it was meant to be like that; interpretations and the backgrounds of individuals is what caused such issues. Power is also very enticing to most of the population. As for sexism, that's also how you interpret it. At a first-glance, the Qu'ran may seem to preach that women are lesser beings, but disregarding the many, many translation errors on the issue, the prophet actually preaches acceptance of all. He ended slavery within Muslim societies, and he stated quite clearly that the best Muslim is the Muslim who treats their wife with upmost respect. The translations aren't very kind towards the women aspect, especially since some Muslims reportedly owned "harems." Modern-day Muslims don't actually approve of that at all. 99.99% of us are monogamous, but even for that .01% who aren't, it is no worse than the Christian who has an affair with a woman or two behind his wife or girlfriend's back (which, not targetting Christians exactly, can happen with any religious follower).

It's just too bad that the books are written like riddles a bit. Some things are straight-forward, but other things aren't as clear, and it causes these differences to sprout up and cause intolerance, wars, etc.

Makes me sad ):

FaithInMe
April 25th, 2010, 04:22 PM
I noticed a few people have noted they are catholics and then used the word christian.
Completely different, guys.
Catholics and Christians have entirely different views and interpretations of the bible, and thus form different sects from the same original concept.

Which one do you wanna be? It makes no difference to me, it just is silly to call your self both, when it just isnt possible.

Edit:

I should have cleared up the sexism comment as well.
All I meant is that women, in general, arent considered nor mentioned in almost all religious scripture.
They are background characters and thus seem to have little to no input into how things came to be as they are.
With the obvious exception of the Adam and Eve story.

But yes, I believe personally that all scripture was written in a way that there is no black and white. Its been written as open to interpretation for a reason, whatever that reason is.
I cant help but think it wasnt for a good purpose though, considering our current world history.
I am, however, an anarchist at heart.

Timbjerr
April 25th, 2010, 04:24 PM
The one thing I find frustrating about both religion and science (they aren't mutually exclusive by the way, as so many believe) is their great need to explain everything, and provide a rational reasoning. Those who are religious have an answer to everything (God), and scientists have a need to understand absolutely everything and and not content with the fact that some things just absolutely cannot be explained.

Anyways, as to my beliefs, I'm happy to say that I legitimately don't have a firm stance on religion. I think that I believe in a higher power, or God, but I have no idea what God did or did not do. I have no problem accepting some sort of theory that God created the Big Bang, or evolution. That's where I think people get caught up. I believe that vocal minorities on every side muddy the water for everyone else, and create an unreasonable view that you have to be on side or the other. If God does in fact exist, it doesn't mean that all the theories that scientists have come up with are false. Many who are blinded by their theism or anti-theism do not like that, but I believe that that could possibly be the best explanation. Anyways, this whole thing may not make sense, but just ask if you want me to elaborate or something.


This post pretty much sums up my entire point of view better than I could. XD

Religion as I see it is more about spiritual guidance than giving us all of the answers. I believe in evolution and the big bang. Does that mean I'm betraying my identity as a Catholic? Not at all, because I also believe that there was a higher power (God) to create the initial ball of energy that exploded into the current universe and gave it the potential for life.

I've come to find that the majority of atheists on the Internet have a huge misconception of God as this stubborn old guy in the sky that will condemn you if you don't fall into His perfect little specifications and/or some will be more than willing to protect you if you give Him a prayer every day. From my understanding (which is admittedly more of Deist point of view than a true Catholic one), He's a loving father figure who wants to watch us try to figure out our lives on our own without necessitating His interference. He's not as omnipotent as people think either. He's just kind of a distant observer judging us from afar so He can determine whether or not we're worthy to join Him in Heaven after we die.

I noticed a few people have noted they are catholics and then used the word christian.
Completely different, guys.
Catholics and Christians have entirely different views and interpretations of the bible, and thus form different sects from the same original concept.

Which one do you wanna be? It makes no difference to me, it just is silly to call your self both, when it just isnt possible.

Catholicism is a branch of Christianity. The branch of Christianity that you're thinking of is Protestantism. Two different approaches, but they both fall under the Christian umbrella as they both teach the teaching of Jesus Christ.

I hate when people fallaciously make that mistake.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:26 PM
Catholicism is a part of Christianity. You can be a Christian and a Catholic. You can be a Protestant, a Baptist, a Free Methodist, a Catholic, a Roman Catholic, etc. and it's all part of Christianity. They are but different "branches" who believe in different things a bit. For example, some believe in masturbation, and others don't. Their book is the same, though, and their main idea is the same.

That's what I've come to understand in my Christian experience, in any case. Christianity is the mere following of Jesus Christ and the Bible. All the branches fall under that.

[Edit]

Protestants aren't Christians? o0

[Edit]

Ah, yeah. Protestants = Christians (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/protestant).

Zet
April 25th, 2010, 04:28 PM
Wooo Atheism threads, such great fun for people who have no belief and make fun of religion.

I'm a Catholic, while I am a believer I do have some doubts about things mentioned in the bible and how they contradict other things said in the bible. But when I look at Atheist side and how some think the big bang happened, I just don't quite understand the logic behind it "nothing existed before the big bang" then how did the gasses exist to cause the big bang?

But yeah, if you can answer how the big bang really happened and how gasses appeared without disproving the law of conservation of mass then I won't make fun of atheists and the big bang ever again.

FaithInMe
April 25th, 2010, 04:31 PM
Catholicism is a derivative of christianity, I know that.
I havent been explaining myself well so far today, its still only early here.

In its very essence a derivative is different from its original. Otherwise there would be no need for said derivative.
Its logic.

All Im saying is that you cant actually believe both what "catholics" AND "christians (as first hand christians)" believe. Since they do actually have their different views and interpretations.
And this goes to include the other derivatives as well.


The Big Bang wasnt created from nothing and has been recreated in Geneva in the last monthish by some of the best scientists in the world.

icomeanon6
April 25th, 2010, 04:33 PM
I noticed a few people have noted they are catholics and then used the word christian.
Completely different, guys.
Catholics and Christians have entirely different views and interpretations of the bible, and thus form different sects from the same original concept.

Which one do you wanna be? It makes no difference to me, it just is silly to call your self both, when it just isnt possible.
Catholics are in fact Christians, just ask any Catholic or other kind of Christian. Catholicism was actually the first form of Christianity, and everything else split off from there. You're most likely referring to Protestants when you say Christians. And even then you're making a huge generalization when you say that their views differ from Catholics', because you imply that all non-Catholic Christians agree with each other. Contemporary Christianity is far away from being a homogeneous organization. It's a large number of independent organizations, each with different beliefs, interpretations, practices, and structures. There are Roman Catholics, Baptists, Anglicans, Unitarians, Presbyterians, Mormons, Orthodox Catholics, Lutherans, Adventists, the list goes on and on.

Do some research before you start talking like an expert. Just because you've read the Bible doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about Christianity.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:33 PM
I think it's just commonly accepted to say you're "Christian" because that's the main branch. If you want to go into detail, you would say "I'm a Christian Catholic".

If you're Catholic, it's accepted usually to say you're Christian, because it's not necessarily wrong. It's just broad.

Stairmaster
April 25th, 2010, 04:34 PM
I'm not Atheist. I would explain why but I think that would border on a religious debate which, as well all know, is almost as bad as a political debate.

I will say though that I don't discriminate against atheists or people of any religion for that matter.

Timbjerr
April 25th, 2010, 04:35 PM
[Edit]

Protestants aren't Christians? o0

[Edit]

Ah, yeah. Protestants = Christians (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/protestant).

yeah, my post was admittedly a little vague...I wanted to type that statement as quick as possible so my double posts would merge. XD

Here's a quick question I'll pose to the atheists in here. What's your opinion on spirituality in general? As anyone can tell you, there is a significant difference between spirituality and religion. Is spirituality a necessary part of human life or not?

Zet
April 25th, 2010, 04:35 PM
I'd feel weird to say "I'm a Christian" since it would feel like I worship Jesus more than God

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:38 PM
I'd feel weird to say "I'm a Christian" since it would feel like I worship Jesus more than God

That's one of the things that made me go:

:\

at Christianity in general. Jesus was a prophet, but for some reason, they either a) interpreted him as God, or b ) just worship him more than God.


and Mormons are Christians? Really? I didn't know that o-o

FaithInMe
April 25th, 2010, 04:42 PM
Do some research before you start talking like an expert. Just because you've read the Bible doesn't mean you know everything there is to know about Christianity.

I can say the same for the people who are religious talking down science like they know.
Not necessarily anyone particular, but it happens.
There is wrong and intolerance on both sides.
Ive never once stated I know everything, and Im completely respectful of religion. Im an atheist studying theology, I think thats tolerance enough on my part.

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 04:49 PM
That's one of the things that made me go:

:\

at Christianity in general. Jesus was a prophet, but for some reason, they either a) interpreted him as God, or b ) just worship him more than God.


Speaking as someone who grew up in a Christian household, the reason they do that is because they identify God, Jesus of Nazareth, && the "Holy Spirit" as a Holy Trinity of sorts.

My major assertion is that this essentially makes Christianity polythesim, but the response I get is that they are "three equal parts that made creation".

So God is a part of God? =\\

Point is, though, that even if the Holy Trinty concept made sense, a ridiculous amount of focus is directed toward Jesus himself. God is mentioned to an extent, but I never hear anyone sing gospel songs about "the Holy Spirit".

The churches I've attended have prayers directed toward Jesus, songs dedicated to Jesus, && refer to Jesus as "the Lord". Even if Jesus is the "son" of God, even if he is the messiah, the messiah is still a human being, no matter how holy, blessed, or smiled upon by God. In that respect, you are worshipping not God, but a physical manifestation. What was that first commandment again you guys?

But I didn't come here to Christian-bash. I'm still a theist, && I still have a lot of respect for many aspects of Christian teachings && lifestyle. It's just that I question some of the subtilties, as I do with every other religion.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:52 PM
That's why I disagreed with Christianity overall. Jesus was but a man who did great things. He was not a "son" of God (in literal sense). He was a prophet sent by God with a miracle birth - God didn't impregnant Mary, though.

I never understood the Trinity idea either. God is God. God doesn't have three parts. Jesus is not God in human form. God is God, and He's in the universe somewhere, but I don't believe He ever became human.

But I respect Christianity over all. Nothing against'em. I have lots of Christian friends...

... like ZETTTTUUUU :D

Zet
April 25th, 2010, 04:53 PM
the first commandment is not to worship any other Gods

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 04:55 PM
the first commandment is not to worship any other Gods

I think Erin's assuming Christians worship a false God - Jesus - since Christians give Jesus more attention than God, and split God into "three parts" (Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost).

I never understood why Christians call Jesus "lord". I called Jesus "lord" when I was a practising Christian, and I never understood that. It's as if Jesus is all-mighty, but he was only a man :<

Maybe Zettu can enlighten us!

Zet
April 25th, 2010, 04:58 PM
Well the ten commandments came out before the birth of Jesus, so I guess in a way Christians are screwing themselves over by worshiping a false idol

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 05:01 PM
Well the ten commandments came out before the birth of Jesus, so I guess in a way Christians are screwing themselves over by worshiping a false idol

Kinda...

But the Romans are to blame for that. They cherrypicked stuff. Apparently it was deliberate to make Jesus more worshipped than God Himself. I'm not sure, though. I wasn't there when they edited the Bible :s

Erin
April 25th, 2010, 05:03 PM
I think Erin's assuming Christians worship a false God - Jesus - since Christians give Jesus more attention than God, and split God into "three parts" (Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost).
That's basically what I'm going for.
I don't accuse them of anything--- who && how they choose to worship is their business, && as I've stated before, I feel that living a virtuous lifestyle && adhering to the consistent themes of religions in general is more crucial than identifying with any one religious group.

But as Zet stated, it's kind of self-contradicting. Regardless of whether or not worshipping Jesus is worshipping God "by proxy", it's still worshipping a physical manifestation of spiritualism, which is, by definition, an idol.

Åzurε
April 25th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Okey dokey. Starting notes: I'm Protestant Christian. I'm not in a mood for outright debate, so don't expect a whole bunch of heated posting. I'm just typing what I'm thinking. And... Begin.


Actually, the Christian version is that Lucifer was an angel created by God who refused to kneel before humans. He was extremely vain and was banished by God to Hell, where Lucifer currently rules. God is not Lucifer's father. According to Christianity, the only "son" God has is Jesus (and if you want to broaden on some of the things taught, Christianity also teaches that every human is the daughter and son of God, but I don't believe that's to be taken literally).
Lucifer fell "like lightning", but is not yet contained in Hell. In the book of Job, he (now Satan) says he has been walking the earth, or among man.
Hell is also, in my understanding, eternal separation from God, and as much a state of being as a location.
Christianity teaches that humans are sons (gender-neutral pronoun, I think) of God in two ways: One, more generalized and in the sense that everything originates from God. Two, faithful Christians are considered children in almost every way. In that God is an authority to them, in that God gives an inheritance (common occurrence when the phrase was written), and that they are to honor Him in the a manner akin to the way a Hebrew child was to honor their parents. Heck, I bet I could work up a sermon on this, but anyway. Next bit.

In the Qu'ran, Lucifer is a Djinn who also refused to kneel before humans because he did not believe humans were better than Djinns. He told God that he was going to prove Him wrong - that humans were actually evil at heart, and not benevolent as God said. He was granted eternal life as to try and prove God wrong, while God looked down on the foolish Djinn. God rules over Hell, not Lucifer. Lucifer is merely a presence now who seeks to corrupt humanity with atheism and, I'm assuming, polytheism. He uses many resources to attempt to corrupt us as to prove the Almighty Creator incorrect (the media, being the biggest one).

Contrary to popular belief, Djinns are not "demons". There are good Djinns, and there are bad Djinns. Djinns generally even believe in God. It was a separate race which lacked intelligence, but acquired mystical capabilities instead. Humans were deemed the intelligent species, while angels are but mere slaves of God - slaves incapable of going against God's will and incapable of thinking for themselves.

Same basic story, but a bit different from each other at the same time. Lucifer is the "misleading light in the darkness", the bringer of false light. He is therefore the Anti-Christ of both the Bible and the Qu'ran.
"Even the demons believe". An interesting parallel, if nothing else.

There is no particular antichrist. First and Second John are the only books to use the word in the NIV, and myths about a particular antichrist (note that this bit of thought is pure speculation) appear to have been already spreading then.

Indeed, and that is why Eve was so easily deceived by the satanic reptile. The naiveness of a child is the innocence before knowing what's bad. It is after she consumed the apple that her naivety was lost.
Hmm. It was still her choice, though.

Indeed, from my experience with both religions, Christianity is a religion that followers believe they must force on others, and scorn those who disbelieve them. That's why in history, Christians are the worst for converting people and killing those who opposed (in Canada, Christian Europeans kidnapped aboriginals and turned them Christian; in America, there was a huge Indian manslaughter because of different beliefs). In Islam, we are opposed to that, and we are taught to accept everyone's views and to respect everyone. An example would be when Arabia took over Spain for 800 years. Are the Spanish Muslim today? They could have been, but no, the majority are still Catholic because the Muslims never forced it on them.
First sentence: It's true, but I would like to note that while it is part of Christianity to evangelize and convert people (to a great degree, for their own good), it is not biblical to force it upon other people, or to look down upon those who don't believe. People who would do - and have done - that have seriously misunderstood the scriptures.

The rest: Catholicism is a great deal different than Protestantism, which is what I have experience with. Example A: the Pope. It's a nice idea, I can see it reinforcing unity, but he seems to have progressed among the more devout Catholics into being above normal people on some levels. Also, praying to beings other than God is directly unbiblical.

Also, Ghandi.

Of course, there are good people and bad people in every religion and country, as are there the rare extremists in every religion on Earth. I'm sure some Muslims forced their religion on others, and I'm sure some Christians refuse to force it and tolerate others' religious choices. The examples above are just some major, historical examples of tolerancy differences between Christianity and Islam.
Thanks for providing quote-fodder, Yusshin. I like reading your posts, because it's an atypical viewpoint from what I'm used to, and you're good at remaining reasonable. I have recently found a new love for people on the internet who don't think religion on the whole is stupid.

Wall of text: En fin.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 05:24 PM
Thanks for providing quote-fodder, Yusshin. I like reading your posts, because it's an atypical viewpoint from what I'm used to, and you're good at remaining reasonable. I have recently found a new love for people on the internet who don't think religion on the whole is stupid.

I hope that was meant to be nice, because it made me feel fuzzy inside o-o! <3

Åzurε
April 25th, 2010, 05:28 PM
I hope that was meant to be nice, because it made me feel fuzzy inside o-o! <3

Yeah, it was. I was getting annoyed at the forum in my mind just typing it out, so it was kind of hard to be outright positive and uplifting. >.<"

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 05:30 PM
Yeah, it was. I was getting annoyed at the forum in my mind just typing it out, so it was kind of hard to be outright positive and uplifting. >.<"

Yay xD It was kinda obvious, but I wanted to be certain o.o just to be sure I didn't take it the wrong way or have a doubt.

I'm surprised this thread isn't a total flamefest, really :| WE DO GOOD! @ all participants

Esper
April 25th, 2010, 06:18 PM
There's a lot of religion in this thread about atheism. Go figure.

I'm a non-believer, wasn't raised with any religion, and don't think about these kinds of things except when something like this thread crosses my path. When they do I try to stay non-militant.

shookie
April 25th, 2010, 06:38 PM
I grew up in a really weird family religion-wise. My mom's Catholic, my dad is Christian, and the latter is more headstrong about it than the former. My grandparents (on my dad's side) didn't want my parents to get married solely because my mom is Catholic, which almost lead to them eloping. So even though my mom went to catholic schools, as did her sisters, nobody on her side practices the religion as much as my dad's side does.

I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm atheist, but I don't practice a religion. It's not that I don't believe in a God, or Gods, or think there's anything wrong with people believing in a higher being. I just don't like people who choose to blame said higher force for everything good and bad in their life. That's how my dad approached every situation. His girlfriend didn't break up with him because of how he is, but because Satan is out to ruin his day. He didn't get the worst parking space in the parking lot because it's a busy day, but because Satan made sure he had a terrible parking space. Etc.
I also don't approve of anything, not just a religion, that thinks it's okay to go around forcing others to listen to their beliefs and accept them as their own.*

The scientific part of my mind has a lot of trouble comprehending a lot of the things people try to explain with religion, too. I believe in the Big Bang, the theory of evolution, and everything like that. Being able to see something that is concrete and can be put on paper and backed up by facts is much more convincing to me than "Well this guy said it's true, so it's gotta be true."

* I have nothing against people that are strong believers of their religion or who are just very religious people. I have cousins on my dad's side who are awesome, and the fact that they attend Christian college on dry campuses and are friends with the pastor's children doesn't bother me one bit. The fact that my dad's family says grace and talk about church at dinner doesn't bother me, either. It's only when they cross the line and make a big deal about how I don't believe in whatever aspect of religion they're talking about that gets me. The second they mention Jesus I don't throw my dinner plate across the room and smack them with my beliefs, so when they find out I don't know more than one or two bible passages shouldn't be a reason for them to do the same to me.

Yusshin
April 25th, 2010, 06:46 PM
I wouldn't go as far to say that I'm atheist, but I don't practice a religion. It's not that I don't believe in a God, or Gods, or think there's anything wrong with people believing in a higher being. I just don't like people who choose to blame said higher force for everything good and bad in their life. That's how my dad approached every situation. His girlfriend didn't break up with him because of how he is, but because Satan is out to ruin his day. He didn't get the worst parking space in the parking lot because it's a busy day, but because Satan made sure he had a terrible parking space. Etc.
I also don't approve of anything, not just a religion, that thinks it's okay to go around forcing others to listen to their beliefs and accept them as their own.*

Actually, on a similar note, as a Christian I believed that God controlled everyone, that free will was a distortion of reaity. In truth, since God knew what everyone was going to do, He planned for some of us to suffer and some of us not to suffer.

This lead me to the same thing your father is doing. I would blame God, not people, for everything. It was always God's fault, or it was Satan. Usually it was God's fault, though.

That is, until I realized God knew what was going to happen, but it was a "test" for us. I stopped blaming God after that, since God is not a scapegoat.

.Gamer
April 25th, 2010, 06:58 PM
Wouldn't it have been better just to make a 'Religion' thread? That way non-atheists can post.

I am not athiest though. Christian(ish).

UndertakerFreak1127
April 25th, 2010, 06:59 PM
I'd like to take a minute to point out the delicious irony in that you're calling theists ignorant and small-minded when every theist in this thread has made a much more eloquent post than this. XD

Wow, you can assume like no other - I bow to you.

First off, I NEVER called THEISTS ignorant, I called ANYONE who can't handle someone's criticisms online small-minded.

Get your facts straight.

And if we're gauging by eloquence here, I really don't care. My viewpoints aren't going to be scrubbed and polished just to please a few people.

Forever
April 26th, 2010, 06:46 AM
I'm straight.

And Christian.

Blue Nocturne
April 26th, 2010, 06:46 AM
I am an atheist, but my dads side of the family is some kind of christian. I was brought up in a sort-of christian way. I occasionally went to church and celebrated all the stuff, but when i was about 9, i started to question religion. I started looking at the story from a non-bias view: "A man in the sky looks down on us and those who are good from his P.o.V go to a magical place in the sky etc." Then I compared that to the story of santa claus, which seemed more plausible.

As someone big on science, i have trouble understanding Religion. I believe in Event One and Evolution because theres some evidence to it, rather than believing it simply because a book says so.

I have arguments (not serious ones though) with my dad about religious quite a lot. And my argument about lack of proof comes up a lot. Examine this conversation between me and him (wording not exact):


Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will.

Can you see the circular logic here?

Åzurε
April 26th, 2010, 07:40 AM
I am an atheist, but my dads side of the family is some kind of christian. I was brought up in a sort-of christian way. I occasionally went to church and celebrated all the stuff, but when i was about 9, i started to question religion. I started looking at the story from a non-bias view: "A man in the sky looks down on us and those who are good from his P.o.V go to a magical place in the sky etc." Then I compared that to the story of santa claus, which seemed more plausible.

To be honest it does sound rather ridiculous at first glance. However, it's never a good idea to take a religion (or lack thereof, for that matter) at face value. If science is the final word (here's looking at you, forum-I-don't want-to-call-out), wouldn't it be prudent to examine this like you would any other hypothesis? start with internal consistency, then external, and go from there. I could also get into how the sky is irrelevant, and how "being good" doesn't matter so much as you made it sound.

As someone big on science, i have trouble understanding Religion. I believe in Event One and Evolution because theres some evidence to it, rather than believing it simply because a book says so.
I never understood of this- I'm well acquainted with evolution, but what evidence is there for the Big Bang occurring? I look it up and all I get is techno-babble.

I'll try and answer questions from that argument now-
Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Jesus, when he walked the Earth, performed "more miracles than could be written about"(I forget the passage), but it appears most of them were healing, or just helping someone. Funny, no?
Proof for God's existence. Most everything I would produce would be written off as a product of evolution if it were shown to an atheist. Other than living things, there are fading signs of the flood, and ruins. Ruins offer very little, and the flood thing is debated daily.

Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
I'm gonna take issue with your padrè for second here. I don't think that moving a mountain would force anyone to believe in God. People probably would do whatever they feel like once the shock wore off. Just like they do now.
Jesus seemed to be deeply personal. I doubt he would feel it necessary to move any mountains, because that wouldn't make life better for people. He was also humble. What would cutting a mountain down do, except create some kind of altar for Himself?

Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
True. We would no reason to believe if nobody saw him do something only God could do, bring back the dead. Instilling life back into that which was already wholly deceased. Show me science doing that. The other miracles were for the edification of his followers, bringing people into Christianity, and just to help people.

Can you see the circular logic here?

I know where your dad was coming from, but I can see how it sounded to you.

Moltres111
April 26th, 2010, 07:44 AM
I'm an atheist, because I believe there is no God. I believe "God" is something humans have created.

I have a muslim friend though, and I respect him for his religious view, but personally, I will say there is no God until I get proof that he actually exists.

That's just my opinion though..

Zeph.
April 26th, 2010, 07:45 AM
I called ANYONE who can't handle someone's criticisms online small-minded.

Get your facts straight.

And if we're gauging by eloquence here, I really don't care. My viewpoints aren't going to be scrubbed and polished just to please a few people.

Again, the irony :) Good way of handling criticism there...

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 07:48 AM
Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will.

That's partially why Christianity made no sense to me.

I much prefer the way that Islam explains it. Jesus was a miracle-worker who was permitted to perform miracles with God's permission. Jesus never claimed to be God, even in the Bible, because Jesus is not God. He's a prophet who merely spread the word of God to the people in the area. Although we do not believe Jesus was resurrected (he was replaced by a look-alike at the last minute), Jesus was capable of reviving the dead, curing the blind, and healing the disfigured - with God's permission, of course. These miracles were the will of God that took his body temporarily, but it was certainly not Jesus himself performing these miracles. With God's permission, even Moses moved the water to save the Jewish from Egyptian slavery. There was no reason for Jesus to "move a mountain" other than to prove that he could. As said earlier, I believe God wants us to believe in His existance by piecing it together, rather than demanding "If God really wants us to believe He exists, we want concrete proof!" He could have made us all believers if He wanted to, but He decided to let us decide for ourselves, for He wants us to believe in Him and His words even after the decease of His prophets. It is much better to be loved by will than involuntarily.

All respect to Christians, though. I'm just expressing what confuzzled me with that religion, too, and one of the reasons I converted from it (among many).

Jesus was a great man, but even as a Christian, the idea that he was, indeed, God Himself was too farfetch'd. I don't mean to offend anyone, though. I don't see why we would call anyone who isn't God our "Lord", or why we were forced to sing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong". That should moreso be a chant to God, not Jesus. I'm sure Jesus would love us, too, but being a mere man, it's a bit odd to say that a man who lived 2,000 years ago who doesn't know the people of this generation personally would love us. God will always love us, though, since He knows all of us personally.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 26th, 2010, 07:56 AM
Again, the irony :) Good way of handling criticism there...

Wow. I'm abrasive, so I'm a troll? Get real. It's not my fault that you're used to a nicer tone.

Galukxy
April 26th, 2010, 07:57 AM
I'm Christian, I believe in God, Jesus, Heaven, Hell and Satan, simple as really. I would explain
why I chose to believe in them but it'll take a whole lot of writing, but some people that are of a certain don't exactly follow their religion as strictly as
others do, so I've heard.

Åzurε
April 26th, 2010, 08:04 AM
That's partially why Christianity made no sense to me.

I much prefer the way that Islam explains it. Jesus was a miracle-worker who was permitted to perform miracles with God's permission. Jesus never claimed to be God, even in the Bible, because Jesus is not God.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I AM is a Hebrew term for God, if I'm not mistaken. There's other passages, too.

EDIT: Including one of my favorites, Philippians 2:6 (http://bible.cc/philippians/2-6.htm) and the subsequent verses.

Jesus was a great man, but even as a Christian, the idea that he was, indeed, God Himself was too farfetch'd. I don't mean to offend anyone, though. I don't see why we would call anyone who isn't God our "Lord", or why we were forced to sing "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so. Little ones to him belong, they are weak but he is strong". That should moreso be a chant to God, not Jesus. I'm sure Jesus would love us, too, but being a mere man, it's a bit odd to say that a man who lived 2,000 years ago who doesn't know the people of this generation personally would love us. God will always love us, though, since He knows all of us personally.

Nobody should be forced to sing in a church of real, faithful followers. Ever. Jesus, being God, would know each of us personally. And that's an important aspect of my faith.

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 08:11 AM
John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”
John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”
Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

I AM is a Hebrew term for God, if I'm not mistaken. There's other passages, too.

I never read those passages before, but it seems to me that Jesus is speaking for God to the people, and not as God, if that makes sense.

In the Qu'ran, God says to Jesus: "Did you ever say that you were Me?", in which Jesus replies: "No, never. I would never dishonour You by pretending to be You."

I guess that's where faith differences come into play. As a Christian, we were forced to sing and praise Jesus, and rarely mentioned "God" at all. I still prefer to see it that Jesus was not God, but God allowed him to perform miracles with permission.

Again, faith differences, though. I think the Jesus = God is a major difference that the Romans and the translators can be blamed for. I think in order to truly understand what Jesus was meaning to say, you would need to read the Hebrew version itself, since the translations were a bit odd (after all, they mention Mohammed in the Hebrew version of the Bible, but they literally translated his name into "the Praised One" or something like that. Who knows what else might have been changed without Christians realizing it).

Or maybe Jesus was God, but I personally don't believe so. I won't try to convince a Christian otherwise, though, since that wouldn't be very nice and it'd be disrespectful :|

[Edit] Reading Philippians 2:6 makes me shudder. I guess you can assume why. Nothing is equal to God, nei' a creation, nei' Jesus himself. A creation cannot amount to its Creator. Obviously a Christian would say "but Jesus wasn't a creation; Jesus was God", but I beg to differ.

Actually, Philippians 2:6 is a great example for the broadness of translations. Lookie:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Which means to say that Jesus in nature was as benevolent as God (but not God), and that equality with God is infeasable.

Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

Which means Jesus = God, and that he shouldn't brag about being equal.

Totally different meanings, yet it is the same verse.

Rich Boy Rob
April 26th, 2010, 08:32 AM
I'm an Atheist, and I do believe that I've been one for as long as I can remember. I was raised as a Muslim and I went along with it because that's what I was told I was, but I was never religious nor did I hold any true belief in god. It didn't seem right or fair to me to practice something I didn't believe in.

I'm just happy that my parents were open-minded enough to accept that when I told them that.

This is basically the same case as me, although it was the school that explained everything Christian...ly? not my parents, who as far as I know are basically Atheist. I'm glad it was only infant school that taught religion as fact rather than as an opinion which some people hold.

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 08:38 AM
I hafta go out now, but I'll be back in about seven hours to continue this. Perhaps some of the translations are speculations based on the individual, but that's how I see it. Philippians 2:6 already has two meanings pending the Bible version.

Maybe someone can answer to me why there are versions of a Holy Book? Surely there should only be one version - the true version. That's something that bothered me about Christianity, too, that Islam doesn't have. All the Qu'rans are untouched since 600AD and the same writing and whatnaught. There are no versions. Why are there many, many different versions of the Bible, whose phrasing may cause misinterpretations, such as Philippians 2:6?

Zeph.
April 26th, 2010, 08:41 AM
Wow. I'm abrasive, so I'm a troll? Get real. It's not my fault that you're used to a nicer tone.

I didn't say anything about trolls. Not once.

I can't help but feel you're looking for some sort of heated debate though...

Åzurε
April 26th, 2010, 08:57 AM
I never read those passages before, but it seems to me that Jesus is speaking for God to the people, and not as God, if that makes sense.
I'm sure I understand what you mean, but not quite how you see the verses.

Again, faith differences, though. I think the Jesus = God is a major difference that the Romans and the translators can be blamed for. I think in order to truly understand what Jesus was meaning to say, you would need to read the Hebrew version itself, since the translations were a bit odd (after all, they mention Mohammed in the Hebrew version of the Bible, but they literally translated his name into "the Praised One" or something like that. Who knows what else might have been changed without Christians realizing it).
I've done a little bit of internet investigation and asked questions about this. The Bible has not been translated between languages many times. Old Testament in Hebrew, New in Greek, and the Septuagint. Most all translations derive from those, and the only things that change are pronouns (gender-neutral Hebrew for "children" into "sons", e.g.) and the connotation of the new words, which may skew meanings a bit. That's why I like to use the Greek and Hebrew.

Or maybe Jesus was God, but I personally don't believe so. I won't try to convince a Christian otherwise, though, since that wouldn't be very nice and it'd be disrespectful :|
I get your position, but I'd like you to know that this is one Christian who will take no offense.

[Edit] Reading Philippians 2:6 makes me shudder. I guess you can assume why. Nothing is equal to God, nei' a creation, nei' Jesus himself. A creation cannot amount to its Creator.

Actually, Philippians 2:6 is a great example for the broadness of translations. Lookie:

Quote:
Originally Posted by New International Version
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Which means to say that Jesus in nature was as benevolent as God (but not God), and that equality with God is infeasable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by New Living Translation
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Which means Jesus = God, and that he shouldn't brag about being equal.

Totally different meanings, yet it is the same verse.
This is how I see it.

NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
NLT: Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.
Christ was, in the deepest part of him, his very nature, God. He is perfect, and equal to God. However he did not think of this as something to keep, like a position. He was willing to go and leave it all behind to become human. A sinless human, but a human. However, this is my interpretation, and the best thing to do would be to find the original Greek and translate the words directly.

Here's the rest of the passage: Philippians 2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians+2&version=NIV).

EDIT to allow for Yusshin's second post:

Maybe someone can answer to me why there are versions of a Holy Book? Surely there should only be one version - the true version. That's something that bothered me about Christianity, too, that Islam doesn't have. All the Qu'rans are untouched since 600AD and the same writing and whatnaught. There are no versions. Why are there many, many different versions of the Bible, whose phrasing may cause misinterpretations, such as Philippians 2:6? It bugs me too. I'm not sure why there's more than one, to be honest. But in the original languages, especially the Old Testament, there's incredibly infinitesimal change.

It's funny how the topic about atheism metamorphosed into religious discussion. Although, how far could it have gone without something poppin' up? Sorry about the derail.

UndertakerFreak1127
April 26th, 2010, 10:42 AM
I didn't say anything about trolls. Not once.

I can't help but feel you're looking for some sort of heated debate though...

What is up with everyone assuming here?

Trust me bro, if I wanted heated debate, I'd make it much earlier than this. You only assume I want heated debate because I want to discuss a topic such as atheism.

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 11:47 AM
EDIT to allow for Yusshin's second post:
It bugs me too. I'm not sure why there's more than one, to be honest. But in the original languages, especially the Old Testament, there's incredibly infinitesimal change.

It's funny how the topic about atheism metamorphosed into religious discussion. Although, how far could it have gone without something poppin' up? Sorry about the derail.

I remember when they demanded a specific version of the Bible to be used in church lol I never understood that. Something's wrong with the fact the Bible has "versions". It's physical proof that the book was modified. Surely there should only be one English version, one French version, etc. It really doesn't make sense.

And yes, sorry for derailing :] Always nice to talk to you, though, Azure. Very level-headed.

Chibi-chan
April 26th, 2010, 01:45 PM
FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

Ursula
April 26th, 2010, 02:03 PM
I think Erin's assuming Christians worship a false God - Jesus - since Christians give Jesus more attention than God, and split God into "three parts" (Jesus, God, and the Holy Ghost).Well, it's not really split. It's kind of split, but it's all God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit. Jesus was kind of the physical manifestation of God on Earth during life, but Jesus was still God in Heaven, if that makes sense as well as the Holy Spirit which lives within Christians. At least, that's how I recall learning it XD; I may be wrong oo;
But as Zet stated, it's kind of self-contradicting. Regardless of whether or not worshipping Jesus is worshipping God "by proxy", it's still worshipping a physical manifestation of spiritualism, which is, by definition, an idol.By honoring Jesus, they're still honoring God because God, technically speaking, is Jesus. The Son thing was more metaphoric than anything, I think. Lol. It's not exactly an Idol, but in a sense it kind of us. I understand where you're coming from, but . . it's kind of deeper than that, I think XD;

Me: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God? In fact, why isn't there ANY proof that God actually exists.
Him: He did prove it. He performed loads of miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Me: Why didn't he prove that he is God and prove the existence of god in a way thats provable, like moving a mountain or physically manifesting?
Him: He couldn't do that; that would take away our free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Me: Then why did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Bible?
Him: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Me: You told me that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Him: No, I -
Me: But thats what you just said?
Him: No, what I just said is that the miracles prove that Jesus was God, and that God is real.
Me: So why didn't Jesus or God perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?
Him: Because that would take away our free will. Can you see the circular logic here?
Actually, no.

You're kind of missing the concept of faith which is religion in itself.

Faith
–noun1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.



The whole concept behind religion is that one believes God can do anything based on what they have read in the Bible/etc. They don't need to see Him do something like move a mountain because, faith says that he can do it. But, why should he?
Otherwise, there is no faith within him.
I can see how you think it's circular, and it kind of is, but really, that's what religion is in general: faith in a higher being that one entrusts the eternal soul to.
Jesus performed the miracles to prove that He was God, and to help people in general.
But, He didn't need to do stuff like moving mountains because faith alone is what helps you. If that makes sense. XD;

I remember when they demanded a specific version of the Bible to be used in church lol I never understood that. Something's wrong with the fact the Bible has "versions". It's physical proof that the book was modified. Surely there should only be one English version, one French version, etc. It really doesn't make sense.Originally, there was just the Hebrew Text. But, it was translated so the religion could be made more accessible to others. And so on. The reason we have so many different versions of the Bible is because:
1. Different interpretations of language used
2. Making it even MORE understandable [which is why we have the New International Version]

From what I've read, a lot of stuff is often lost in translation, and I think if everyone could understand the original texts to the fullest extent of it, people would take a whole new meaning from the Bible.

Personally, this is where I find fault with some religion: The Bible has been editted by Man to the extent of it hardly being God's word. The Catholic Church, during the 300s, edited it heavily, from what I understand, and I think that a lot of it is sort of 'manipulated' to justify causes at the time.
For example, at one point, The Bible was used to justify Slavery, Male dominance over Female, and even apparently Nazism. To think that the Bible can be used to Hate, to cause people to dislike others and to cast stones at others when one of Jesus's basic messages was to "Love your Neighbor".
And, I think this is what causes a lot of people to turn away from religion simply because they may or may not be condemned by the Bible because of who they are. [I know I was turned away from It for quite some time because of the whole Homosexuality thing]

Truly, the Bible overall is fascinating to examine, and yeah, I've done a bit of it in my time XD;

But yeah. I'm not an athiest, and I'm not . . exactly a Christian. I mean, I am to an extent, but, I just can't agree with the word of God being used to hate. It's not right, ever.

Personally, I think for both sides, Atheists and Theists alike, that people make assumptions about the other side [Atheists calling Theists ignorant and Theists calling Atheists ignorant] and go into these sorts of threads with misconception that they are being ~persecuted~ or something. u_u;

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 03:08 PM
The various translations of the Bible is what causes a lot of ranged interpretations, though. If it had just been translated once and the person say "This is the official translation. There will be no other", then I don't think we'd have so many branches of Christianity. Maybe one or two, since interpretations will still come along and creep up on people, but it won't seem so odd. Like with Philippians 2:6, the version actually deforms the meaning of the phrase entirely. There really should just be one version, and that's that. There can't be "versions" of a translation of a Book that only has One Meaning.

I'm sure if someone retranslated it and published a copy as true to its core as possible, and included all of the text the Romans omitted / changed when making the New Testament specifically, we'd notice even more similarities between religions. There are many now, but there are some stunning differences (due to the Romans, the omission of certain "books" of the Bible (such as the Book from Jesus' brother), and bad translations) floating around.

It's just too bad humans had to modify it a while back to grip power over religion ): Look where it's gotten the world. Blargh!

Ah, well.

[Edit]

I would go as far to say that if there weren't so much confusion between "versions" and different meanings of the Bible, there wouldn't be so many atheists today. The majority think religion is crud because of it not making sense due to modifications and confusing, misinterpreted phrases. We need a professional who knows every exact expression and phrase in Hebrew to retranslate the Bible for us - and make one, unique version. As was intended.

Erin
April 26th, 2010, 04:51 PM
By honoring Jesus, they're still honoring God because God, technically speaking, is Jesus. The Son thing was more metaphoric than anything, I think. Lol. It's not exactly an Idol, but in a sense it kind of us. I understand where you're coming from, but . . it's kind of deeper than that, I think XD;
"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

Assuming the "Son of God" thing was metaphorical, was he was just kinda talking to himself there? There's several phrases like that throughout the New Testament, where Jesus refers to himself as the Son of God, not in a sense of "we're-all-God's-children", but rather he has some sort of unique connection that normal men, & even other prophets, did not.

Either the Holy Trinity is three separate divine entities, or Jesus Christ is a mortal manifestation of God. In that case, it's either polygamy or idol worship. Not that I really have a problem with that; it doesn't detract from the messages of morality && compassion offered in the Bible. It's just a self-contradiction that leads me to question Christianity's status as the "one true religion".

I stand by what I've said before--- I firmly don't believe any one religion is 100% correct. They're all the same stories of morality && definition of good and evil, with the names && conditions changed to fit the socio-political, cultural, && historical contexts of different regions across the world. God-inspired ideas changed slightly so that all cultures could understand in antiquity.

Muffin™
April 26th, 2010, 05:30 PM
Well, since I don't give a damn about being flamed because I'M aware that this is just a forum filled with people I will never meet and have no consequence to fear, I'm atheist because it's logical. No decent God in my mind would let murder, rape, and other atrocities to our society happen. On a more practical level, I haven't seen him or any of his "miracles." God was a clever little story made up by power-hungry and greedy imbeciles long ago to keep populations in check and weasel a few dollars out of it themselves.

I've had family members imprisoned because of lies, friends dead way too soon, and the universal softener I've always received is "he was taken for a reason, he's in a better place."

Bullsh--.

God's only looking out for himself, in that case - not my personal feelings and sanity.

Know how they say "God never gives you more than you can handle"? Tell that to the people on this planet who kill themselves every 30 seconds.

Religion is all an easily refutable pile of nonsense. A crutch to mask reality and placate a tortured soul.

Now flame away - I embrace it.


This pretty much sums up my belief.


But not about the family part, btw.

Hamilton
April 26th, 2010, 05:58 PM
well here's a life lesson from a fourteen year old-
i believe in God, but i do not judge others- i embrace other peoples beliefs- it is the right thing to do- no religion (or non-religion) is evil, superior, or inferior to any other, and if you (not you as in a certain one person, you as in anyone) think that you need to do soul searching- it's just a way to live life, and if you can't walk through this park that is life without smelling the flowers, you might as well not be living :)
or at least, that's what i believe
better summed up by Yusshins siggy
"Religion is not bad;
People are.
Religion doesn't kill;
People do."

Waffle-San
April 26th, 2010, 05:59 PM
FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

Why? Even if they don't change someone's opinion they can still further their own belief which I would argue is always worth it. As long as it's all in good spirit and it doesn't get personal it's a good thing.

Here was my answer to another similiar thread, I put the directly unrelated stuff in spoiler tags. I know how the OP likes elaboration so this should explain my agnostic point of view perfectly. :)

If no one wants to read this wall of text, the last paragraph is my answer. But if you wish to fully understand where my answer came from and my thought process I'd read all of it. Thanks. :)

Probably not, cause realistically God is not a solid. I can ask everyone in this entire thread to define God for me and I will most likely get a different definition from each person. You can't disprove a religion without disproving all religions.

As humans we are naturally scared of the unknown. We haven't always had advanced Sciences but we developed our thoughts and beliefs at a young age. Religion is our way, as humans, to explain the unexplainable. Isn't it odd that almost all Gods seem to have some sort of human characteristic or feature? Whether it be human appearance or human like emotion. Yet we were not the first species to inhibit this Earth, not by a long shot. The Dinosaur's might have died out but they were a success as a species. 160 million+ years of life is something we can only marvel at and dream to accomplish.

Lets put it this way. Death is something many people fear, and why should they? If you're thinking about your death and have no idea what comes next, you'll be terrified. But if I come to you and tell you of this beautiful place that we all will go to when we die, I bet you're going to be relieved and way more comfortable with your own death.
This is most probably the basis of religion, since this is a pokemon forum I'll use 5th generation as an example.

Zorua and Zoroark have already been confirmed and released. Say over the next couple weeks we get some more tid bits of information. We learn of a couple more pokemon (2 or 3) and a little bit about the terrain. Then 5th gen is unexpectedly delayed until an unknown date. Over time fan fics star to be written and read. I inadvertently start reading these fan fics about what people think 5th generation will be like, based on the little information we have. After awhile I pick a favourite and pass the story on to other people.
Now it turns out, there are three main favourite theories (among others) as to what Generation 5 will be. Lets call them Christianity, Islam and Hindu. As time goes on and 5th gen is never released people slowly start to forget that the official plot was never released and begin to believe one of these three. (This is life, cause obviously this wouldn't just happen with a game). Soon, these three are edited slightly, lost in translation or epiphanitized. Call these new side beliefs Judaism and Anglican. Time goes on and soon, people in certain parts of the world get frustrated with people telling a different story, this Judaism. As Christianity is the most populous religion, these Jews have to endure terrible things until soon it's Christianity or death.
Now fast forward and finally after lifetimes, some more 5th gen details are leaked. Very few based on the mysteries that still lie. But enough to go against some of "facts" portrayed by the other religions. Firm believers slightly edit their beliefs to compensate or simply ignore these findings. Other people stop believing entirally while finally some will create new religions based on old and new info. Now lets call a couple of these new beliefs Mormon and Scientology.

There we go, the evolution of religion. BUT despite what I've just said, I still believe in something. See with all I've just written there still isn't any real true evidence to prove that Gods are real OR unreal. And frankly since Religion is a belief based system, one can just edit their beliefs. Does evolution disprove Religion? Or just prove that God was creative and developed our species? I can't really say either. Also, I refuse to pick a certain belief, cause I will not say that any one religion or belief is wrong. For all I care, the Egyptians, Greeks, Roman, Christians, Muslims, Buhddists. None of them are more right than any other cause a thought can't be wrong. A thought is a thing, it's a noun a thought is.

All of this has been on topic mind you, it's my thought process to get to my answer for this thread. If God is how I've heard him described by most Christians (since this thread unfortunately looks at this religion more than others) he would not care if people believed in him or not. Instead he'd hope people believed in what he stood for. If 200 years from now, two men are having an argument prompting one of these men to quote me, the other man then asks where he heard that. The first man can't remember and states he must have thought of it himself. Sure I didn't get recognition for my words, but I care more that he remembered the words themselves. The fact I said them is irrelevant in this context. If someone "finds" themselves without the help of god but comes to embody a lot of which God stands for than that in my opinion should be enough. And hopefully most Believers recognize that. Which leads me, finally, to my answer.

If I had all the evidence that God did not exist in the world I would neither burn it or publish it. Knowledge is power, and I'd use it to try and change peoples opinion ON Religion and God instead of IN Religion and God. You're simply naive if you do not admit that Religion has brought plenty of both "good" and "bad" things to this world. That's why I would not publish my evidence but instead use it to build a better religious understanding. Hopefully decreasing religious wars without destroying anyone’s faith.

Yusshin
April 26th, 2010, 06:53 PM
"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."

I forgot about this.

If Jesus is indeed, God, why does he (in the Book of Matthews) fall to his face and pray to God? Why does he constantly refer to God, and pray to Him as if God is a different and completely unique entity? Why would God bow before Himself?

It would seem silly for an intelligent being like God to pray to Himself. Why would God pray to Himself, or say bluntly: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"? That doesn't make sense at all. Surely He would not even mention it, if Jesus were God. He would think to Himself. He wouldn't outrightly contradict what the vast majority of the translations of Philippians 2:6 has stated (Jesus = God).

That's one of the major contradictions of the Bible. I can't believe I forgot it, actually.

Maybe Azure or someone else can offer some insight.

Åzurε
April 26th, 2010, 09:33 PM
I forgot about this.

If Jesus is indeed, God, why does he (in the Book of Matthews) fall to his face and pray to God? Why does he constantly refer to God, and pray to Him as if God is a different and completely unique entity? Why would God bow before Himself?

It would seem silly for an intelligent being like God to pray to Himself. Why would God pray to Himself, or say bluntly: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do"? That doesn't make sense at all. Surely He would not even mention it, if Jesus were God. He would think to Himself. He wouldn't outrightly contradict what the vast majority of the translations of Philippians 2:6 has stated (Jesus = God).

That's one of the major contradictions of the Bible. I can't believe I forgot it, actually.

Maybe Azure or someone else can offer some insight.

Jesus is often described as "wholly God, wholly man". It's a bit like God taken into a finite view, an aspect of God that has become human. Jesus, while divine, and in the deepest part of him God, was still then a mortal. Post-ascension however, he's not so human. Restored to power, you could say. But he was born like a normal person, grew up as a carpenter's son, and couldn't do anything miraculous without God's help on some level. He was very well acquainted with scripture, and prayed to God quite a lot. Likely not in his own name, that would be redundant as he is the connection to God. He probably had to be pretty intelligent, too, judging by the responses he gave the people trying to get him arrested all day long. I digress. God made a common person after himself who was in possession of something extraordinary.

My thoughts are a little choppy, but I hope I get something across. It's something I've never tried to explain before. This discussion feels good, to be quite honest. Heh, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

UndertakerFreak1127
April 27th, 2010, 01:46 AM
FYI.
You're not going to change a person's religious views on a Pokemon forum.
Sorry but that just isn't going to happen so stop debating and move on :|

Here's a piece of news for you - no one is trying to change ANYONE'S mind. That wasn't my intention. Sadly, people do assume too much, and mods aren't exempt it seems.

Everyone is calmly discussing.

Jubilation
April 27th, 2010, 02:12 AM
I am an Athiest. Subconciously I've always been Athiest, I never believe in Religion. If a god did exist, why would he let such bad things happen to the world.

Yusshin
April 27th, 2010, 04:55 AM
Jesus is often described as "wholly God, wholly man". It's a bit like God taken into a finite view, an aspect of God that has become human. Jesus, while divine, and in the deepest part of him God, was still then a mortal. Post-ascension however, he's not so human. Restored to power, you could say. But he was born like a normal person, grew up as a carpenter's son, and couldn't do anything miraculous without God's help on some level. He was very well acquainted with scripture, and prayed to God quite a lot. Likely not in his own name, that would be redundant as he is the connection to God. He probably had to be pretty intelligent, too, judging by the responses he gave the people trying to get him arrested all day long. I digress. God made a common person after himself who was in possession of something extraordinary.

My thoughts are a little choppy, but I hope I get something across. It's something I've never tried to explain before. This discussion feels good, to be quite honest. Heh, "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another".

Mm... Doesn't make much sense to me. He prays to God the entire time, yet he consciously knows he is God. Ah, well.

I am an Athiest. Subconciously I've always been Athiest, I never believe in Religion. If a god did exist, why would he let such bad things happen to the world.

As I said, it's a test to see who deserves to go to Heaven. If you can get past Satan's mockeries, blasphemies, and desire for people to disbelieve in God, then you're all right. It hurts Him to see the world hurt each other, but it's showing on the grand scale who deserves to be beside Him in the afterlife. He rewards the victims, and although sometimes the "evil" people seem unpunished, they always are.

That's what I believe :] and everything makes a lot more sense when I see it this way.

Zizi
April 27th, 2010, 07:04 AM
I've always considered myself atheist as i am opposed to following a religion. I believe in live and let live so I have no problems with anyone around me following a religion as long as they don't force their views on me and vice versa. I do believe in a higher power like some kind of energy force but not a God. I'm happy just taking each day as it comes =D

Åzurε
April 27th, 2010, 08:04 AM
Mm... Doesn't make much sense to me. He prays to God the entire time, yet he consciously knows he is God. Ah, well.
I'll try one more time, but then I'm done with this one. First off, God doesn't have to be one "person". God is outside of time and space and everything we accept as the laws of the physical world, and doesn't have to conform to being a single entity. So, with that in mind:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Part of John 1:14

It's difficult thing to really understand. The Logos, translated as Word, became Jesus. While he is that which God is at his core, He was separate from God, because he was human. He prayed to God often, because he was human. Sinless, but even the most powerful or successful or good or evil person ends up just being a person.
Remember this?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

It's what I'm getting at. I wish I could explain better, but this is the tough part for me.

As I said, it's a test to see who deserves to go to Heaven. If you can get past Satan's mockeries, blasphemies, and desire for people to disbelieve in God, then you're all right. It hurts Him to see the world hurt each other, but it's showing on the grand scale who deserves to be beside Him in the afterlife. He rewards the victims, and although sometimes the "evil" people seem unpunished, they always are.
This is just my view on this- God is big on free will. He may take a small hand in some things- random numbers, timing, people meeting people- But most everything is our fault. Satan takes a more proactive role, and tries to break down faith through things that would discourage us, or attract attention to something else, or allowing anger or corruption into your mind. Stuff like suicides and high school massacres ultimately happen because of people. Not God. For those who can see these things through faith, they can even have a way of edifying you in the end.

Yusshin
April 27th, 2010, 08:14 AM
I'll try one more time, but then I'm done with this one.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John 1:1-5

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. Part of John 1:14

It's difficult thing to really understand. The Logos, translated as Word, became Jesus. While he is that which God is at his core, He was separate from God, because he was human. He prayed to God often, because he was human. Sinless, but even the most powerful or successful or good or evil person ends up just being a person.
Remember this?

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

It's what I'm getting at. I wish I could explain better, but this is the tough part for me.

The way I see it, that just shows the Jesus was the physical form of God's benevolence, but was not God. That is why he prayed to God, since God is a separate entity, and always was when talking about Jesus.

That's the jiff I get from that :< Thanks for trying to explain, though.

This is just my view on this- God is big on free will. He may take a small hand in some things- random numbers, timing, people meeting people- But most everything is our fault. Satan takes a more proactive role, and tries to break down faith through things that would discourage us, or attract attention to something else, or allowing anger or corruption into your mind. Stuff like suicides and high school massacres ultimately happen because of people. Not God. For those who can see these things through faith, they can even have a way of edifying you in the end.

Indeed, 99.9% of it is us. God does sometimes take timing and people in hand, but generally, He's just watching. I do believe that when someone suffers terribly at the hands of man, God will intervene sometimes. I've had it happen with me where I was treated terribly, had no friends, and I had no support from my family. I was given intelligence and a gift with linguistics, but no one really recognized it. I was on the brink of breaking down and injuring myself purposefully, but then I believe God intervened and gave me the most wonderful person in the world. I believe that was God trying to tell me that although things were always rough, I should force on anyway, and never give up because He has a purpose for me that He wants me to fulfill. I don't know what it is yet, but I have this odd feeling in my heart that He's watching. Since then, everything has gotten 100x better, much to my surprise. I believe God had something to do with that.

I don't mind that that ^ may sound corny, but that's what I wholeheartedy believe. God doesn't intervene all of the time, though. Sometimes it's just part of this "test" that He wants us to endure hardship, to prove that we won't break under pressure and fall away from Him.

My "L" key on my keyboard is stuck >> /annoyed

Bluerang1
April 27th, 2010, 08:17 AM
I'm Christian, I believe and all, but this has turned to another Religion thread.
OP:
Just wanted to find out how many Pokeholics here are atheist. I am personally.

If you are, why are you?

If not, why are you not?

Simple enough.
Let's stop giving it unnecessary and off-topic posts.

I believe because, first of all Jesus is proven to have assisted and if he didn't resurrect, why did so many people go through hell to defend and hodl on to their faith. Also so many of my prayers, even the impossible ones have been answered, God has bailed my family out of huge problems. Coincidence? I doubt it.

TheNewRocketMovement
April 27th, 2010, 09:03 AM
I'm an Atheist, simply because (in my opinion) there is no proof.

In my eyes there's far too many contradictions in most religions for me to follow them, I believe that God and religion were created by mankind as a way of explaining things that couldn't be explained at the time (Why it rains, why the sun rises, ect) but now science can explain them. I accept the possibility that there may be a God and will respect the wishes of any religious person as long as they respect mine.

Zeph.
April 27th, 2010, 09:04 AM
I think the main reason I'm an Atheist is because of the many little things (ie, condradictions and prejudice) religion has. I was born into a Christian family, I was baptized and confirmed - but then, I was only a child, so people didn't let me think for myself much :/

After 17 years, I decided I didn't want religion in my life.

I respect that there's nothing wrong with believing in a 'God' or higher being. But, surely there's nothing wrong with not believing in one? :)

lx_theo
April 27th, 2010, 03:16 PM
For those who say religion makes no sense, how do you see it logical that an explosion came out of literally nowhere and started everything?

Saw this, thought I'd answer with some input

Well, from my perspective, the difference is that science is always looking for answers, rather than what I see as what religion does, try to make cut and dry explanation whether or not they have all the info.

The Big Bang is a theory from a scientific view. A theory scientifically is something that has a lot of evidence pointing towards, doesn't have any evidence proving it false, and isn't seen as cut and dry. Did the big bang happen? Perhaps. Signs seem to point to it scientifically, but absolute proof is something science very rarely approaches. It could easily be wrong, should something seemingly more likely with evidence arise and a lack of contradictions that would end it. As for before it, I believe there are some theories, including possibly including string and multi-verse theories. The actual explanation of how everything came to be is something that really will likely take longer than until when humans are gone. But who knows? God's existence could very well be true, but, scientifically, it has little to absolutely no evidence.

That's why its logical.

Hamilton
April 27th, 2010, 04:44 PM
I respect that there's nothing wrong with believing in a 'God' or higher being. But, surely there's nothing wrong with not believing in one? :)

not at all :) i don't see why people are so uptight about the subject- especially christians and Hard core atheists- my answer has always been, and always will be-
JUST LIVE LIFE THE WAY BEST SUITED TO YOU
how is that so hard for some people? ;)

Blue Nocturne
April 28th, 2010, 12:04 PM
Actually, no.

You're kind of missing the concept of faith which is religion in itself.

The whole concept behind religion is that one believes God can do anything based on what they have read in the Bible/etc. They don't need to see Him do something like move a mountain because, faith says that he can do it. But, why should he?
Otherwise, there is no faith within him.
I can see how you think it's circular, and it kind of is, but really, that's what religion is in general: faith in a higher being that one entrusts the eternal soul to.
Jesus performed the miracles to prove that He was God, and to help people in general.
But, He didn't need to do stuff like moving mountains because faith alone is what helps you. If that makes sense. XD;

I see what you mean, but if he could prove that he was God back then to satisfy those who didn't believe him, why couldn't he do that now? Even if it wasn't moving a mountain, something like healing amputees or something else he's done. If it was based in the bible, and the bible is definately true, than these miracles must have happened before, even if he doesn't do it to prove himself as God, why not do it as a good deed as he allegedly did in the Bible? Oh no were going around the circle again.

I like The Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Celestial Teapot arguments, it really underlines the (what i consider) absurdity of most religions. Would you believe it if i said my mother was pregnant with the mesiahs next child? More importantly would my religious dad really believe it? Although, as Chibi said, its not a great idea to try and argue religion over the internet, especially as its something that we generally fight to the death over :P.

Timbjerr
April 28th, 2010, 12:26 PM
I see what you mean, but if he could prove that he was God back then to satisfy those who didn't believe him, why couldn't he do that now? Even if it wasn't moving a mountain, something like healing amputees or something else he's done. If it was based in the bible, and the bible is definately true, than these miracles must have happened before, even if he doesn't do it to prove himself as God, why not do it as a good deed as he allegedly did in the Bible? Oh no were going around the circle again.


You're missing the point again. XD

The point of Christianity and any religion for that matter is to have faith in the existence a higher being even if there's no outright obvious proof of it. This is why it's rather futile to try and convert a theist into an atheist or vice-versa. If you've got faith, it's hard to understand why people can't feel God's presence. If you haven't got faith, it's hard to understand how people can feel God's presence. From my experience, it's the ability or inability to have faith in said higher power that is the insurmountable wall that perpetually separates atheists and theists.

Gary Oak FTW
April 28th, 2010, 09:34 PM
Well, since I don't give a damn about being flamed because I'M aware that this is just a forum filled with people I will never meet and have no consequence to fear, I'm atheist because it's logical. No decent God in my mind would let murder, rape, and other atrocities to our society happen. On a more practical level, I haven't seen him or any of his "miracles." God was a clever little story made up by power-hungry and greedy imbeciles long ago to keep populations in check and weasel a few dollars out of it themselves.

I've had family members imprisoned because of lies, friends dead way too soon, and the universal softener I've always received is "he was taken for a reason, he's in a better place."

Bullsh--.

God's only looking out for himself, in that case - not my personal feelings and sanity.

Know how they say "God never gives you more than you can handle"? Tell that to the people on this planet who kill themselves every 30 seconds.

Religion is all an easily refutable pile of nonsense. A crutch to mask reality and placate a tortured soul.

Now flame away - I embrace it.
This is how I feel about the BS that my whole family used to shove down my throat,at least they leave me alone now.

Flipnotic
April 30th, 2010, 10:37 PM
im an atheist :)
because i do not believe in any sort of wizardry lol.
to me, the bible and most religious stuff is practically wizardry.
i do love harry potter though lol.

im more into science than reading a book written of many different people praising someone so selfish.

Grexx
May 1st, 2010, 07:29 PM
I am an athiest. Once was a devout Christian, not anymore.

Why?

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x32/shaun7378/lol.jpg


Serious answer: Because I find religion to be absurd. It's obvious we just make up these "gods" for our own benefit. Too many people has died and sacrificed their lives for this load of donkey terds. It's time for a change.

Chibi Robo
May 1st, 2010, 08:06 PM
You're missing the point again. XD

The point of Christianity and any religion for that matter is to have faith in the existence a higher being even if there's no outright obvious proof of it. This is why it's rather futile to try and convert a theist into an atheist or vice-versa. If you've got faith, it's hard to understand why people can't feel God's presence. If you haven't got faith, it's hard to understand how people can feel God's presence. From my experience, it's the ability or inability to have faith is the insurmountable wall that perpetually separates atheists and theists.
Atheists actually have faith in a few things actually. Evolution for one :3
Really nobody can tell if evolution happened because nobody was there to record it. Even though Atheists have been proven wrong with the evolution theory, like the fact that no missing link fossils have ever been discovered. You still have faith that evolution is correct and nothing else is.
troll pl0x.

lx_theo
May 1st, 2010, 08:16 PM
Atheists actually have faith in a few things actually. Evolution for one :3
Really nobody can tell if evolution happened because nobody was there to record it. Even though Atheists have been proven wrong with the evolution theory, like the fact that no missing link fossils have ever been discovered. You still have faith that evolution is correct and nothing else is.
troll pl0x.

Wow. What are you talking about? It hasn't been proven wrong. Do you even know how science works? If it was legitimately proven wrong, then science would had dismissed it then. Thats how science works. Its not considered as a theory until it has significant evidence, and should it be proven wrong, it is thrown out, or molding to something that is still supported by a significant evidence pool without that contradiction that proved the prior version wrong.

By the way, here's a definition of faith from a dictionary:
faith - belief that is not based on proof
Opposite of science

Chibi Robo
May 1st, 2010, 08:23 PM
Wow. What are you talking about? It hasn't been proven wrong. Do you even know how science works? If it was legitimately proven wrong, then science would had dismissed it then. Thats how science works. Its not considered as a theory until it has significant evidence, and should it be proven wrong, it is thrown out, or molding to something that is still supported by a significant evidence pool without that contradiction that proved the prior version wrong.

By the way, here's a definition of faith from a dictionary:

Opposite of science

10 minutes and already a troll has appeared :D

link (http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/reasons.html)

But you still don't have legitimate proof on evolution, therefor you still have "Faith"
Thats why its still a theory :P

lx_theo
May 1st, 2010, 08:33 PM
10 minutes and already a troll has appeared :D

link (http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/reasons.html)

But you still don't have legitimate proof on evolution, therefor you still have "Faith"
Thats why its still a theory :P

I'm a troll because you don't understand science? I took a quick look at your link. and most of it is just stupid. It says evolution is wrong because it compares things to DARWIN'S theory. Do you have any idea how much it has changed since then? Its irrelevant, you're comparing modern knowledge to a theory that is out-of-date.

Narcissus Secret
May 1st, 2010, 08:34 PM
I don't really know what to believe. I mean.. both theories (evolution+intelligent design) are highly flawed. But... to be honest... I don't really care. I guess that if I had to choose... I would be labeled an athiest, or agnostic. I don't reject the idea of there being a god.. I just tend to put my mind to more practical things.

I mean, when/if we do eventually find out who/what made us... nothing will really change.. bar the fact we will stop wasting time on a truly trivial matter.

Also,Chibi Robo, Theo... having a debate about which theory is right.. is really not the intent the OP had.

Chibi Robo
May 1st, 2010, 08:35 PM
I'm a troll because you don't understand science? I took a quick look at your link. and most of it is just stupid. It says evolution is wrong because it compares things to DARWIN'S theory. Do you have any idea how much it has changed since then? Its irrelevant, you're comparing modern knowledge to a theory that is out-of-date.
Ok then how has it changed?
Because last time I checked Mr. Darwin said I was a monkey.


Also,Chibi Robo, Theo... having a debate about which theory is right.. is really not the intent the OP had.
This is on a matter of theory v.s. religion.
I'm also sick and tired of these atheist threads popping up once a week and I'm taking a stand for it.

lx_theo
May 1st, 2010, 08:43 PM
Ok then how has it changed?
Because last time I checked Mr. Darwin said I was a monkey.


It evolved with every new discovery. Darwin's theory was an early idea for it. Its like the first cars. Compare them to today. New information, technology, and insight has brought about rapid advancements to cars. The same goes for the theory of evolution. Its changed like that, new discoveries, technologies, and such have brought about advancements to the theory to fit with modern knowledge. Like the car, the original concept serves as the base for the modern version. It is changes and continues to change. I'm not well versed enough in the actual current theory to explain the specific detail of how it changed, but this is just how the scientific method works. The scientific method is designed to weed out what has been proven untrue and to promote those with significant evidence. Without either of the above, it proves to be indifferent towards them. Religion falls into the indifferent category. Although it can't be proven wrong, for which I give it its credit as possible for, it also has little to no evidence to prove it at all.


Ok then how has it changed?
This is on a matter of theory v.s. religion.
I'm also sick and tired of these atheist threads popping up once a week and I'm taking a stand for it.
Haha, aren't you just so ignorant? Its not about this debate, as was said. Read the first post, and that's what this thread is supposed to be about. Really, we shouldn't be getting off topic like this

SalemGreen
May 1st, 2010, 08:47 PM
Atheists actually have faith in a few things actually. Evolution for one :3
Really nobody can tell if evolution happened because nobody was there to record it. Even though Atheists have been proven wrong with the evolution theory, like the fact that no missing link fossils have ever been discovered. You still have faith that evolution is correct and nothing else is.
troll pl0x.

Ok then how has it changed?
Because last time I checked Mr. Darwin said I was a monkey.


This is on a matter of theory v.s. religion.
I'm also sick and tired of these atheist threads popping up once a week and I'm taking a stand for it.

Okay I usually avoid these topics on forums as this is literally what I do for a living and I almost feel like I'm cheating when I come into an environment like this and just walk in and cast Death on the entire room..

BUT..

Those two things are probably the two single least intelligent posts on this entire forum. I'm not calling the poster dumb, just that those posts were unintelligent. They have no real backing and it's really just the poster admitting that he doesn't know what evolution is and that he is uneducated on what science is.

Evolution exists. We can see it in day to day life. To argue that evolution doesn't exist is like saying the world is flat. It's outdated to argue against something so true. It's just a theory? Do you know what a scientific theory is? GRAVITY is a scientific theory. Go jump off a cliff and tell me if you don't fall down. Gravity exists, and is apparent, just as apparent as evolution.



Before I leave, I will mention that I pride myself in my intelligence, therefore consider myself an Atheist. It's nothing more than delusional to believe in some mythological creature that clearly has no real merit to his existence.


"We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."


"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Timbjerr
May 1st, 2010, 08:53 PM
Atheists actually have faith in a few things actually. Evolution for one :3
Really nobody can tell if evolution happened because nobody was there to record it. Even though Atheists have been proven wrong with the evolution theory, like the fact that no missing link fossils have ever been discovered. You still have faith that evolution is correct and nothing else is.
troll pl0x.

Believing in the theory of evolution isn't exactly faith because there are numerous facts supporting it, but nice try anyways. I should still probably edit my post for clarity. XD

As an aside though, I'd like to point out that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. I'm a (relatively liberal-minded) Christian and I believe in evolution. It's true that some extreme Christians will dismiss anything scientific and say, "No, God did it!!" I, on the other hand, just think of God as that guy that created the spark of life in the universe and then proceeded to watch from afar to judge us, occasionally throwing trials and tribulations at us to see how we deal with conflict. Like I said though, My personal views of God and Heaven/Hell are much more liberal-minded than other Christians...that and I have a tendency to hate organized religions. XD

Narcissus Secret
May 1st, 2010, 08:57 PM
Believing in the theory of evolution isn't exactly faith because there are numerous facts supporting it, but nice try anyways. I should still probably edit my post for clarity. XD

As an aside though, I'd like to point out that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. I'm a (relatively liberal-minded) Christian and I believe in evolution. It's true that some extreme Christians will dismiss anything scientific and say, "No, God did it!!" I, on the other hand, just think of God as that guy that created the spark of life in the universe and then proceeded to watch from afar to judge us, occasionally throwing trials and tribulations at us to see how we deal with conflict. Like I said though, My personal views of God and Heaven/Hell are much more liberal-minded than other Christians. XD

Now.. this is something that I could see happening. This is what I believe in now. xD

Chibi Robo
May 1st, 2010, 08:58 PM
It evolved with every new discovery. Darwin's theory was an early idea for it. Its like the first cars. Compare them to today. New information, technology, and insight has brought about rapid advancements to cars. The same goes for the theory of evolution. Its changed like that, new discoveries, technologies, and such have brought about advancements to the theory to fit with modern knowledge. Like the car, the original concept serves as the base for the modern version. It is changes and continues to change. I'm not well versed enough in the actual current theory to explain the specific detail of how it changed, but this is just how the scientific method works. The scientific method is designed to weed out what has been proven untrue and to promote those with significant evidence. Without either of the above, it proves to be indifferent towards them. Religion falls into the indifferent category. Although it can't be proven wrong, for which I give it its credit as possible for, it also has little to no evidence to prove it at all.

Im sorry but the main idea of evolution still is based off of the idea that I look similar to a monkey. And the theory that I evolved from a monkey in a million year timespan. But there is just one problem.
http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/%7Edmoore/EVOLUTION2.jpg

How is it that you can find fossils of the first and last lets say "stages", but you have not found any of the 3 middle "stages"?

lx_theo
May 1st, 2010, 09:04 PM
Im sorry but the main idea of evolution still is based off of the idea that I look similar to a monkey. And the theory that I evolved from a monkey in a million year timespan. But there is just one problem.
http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/%7Edmoore/EVOLUTION2.jpg

How is it that you can find fossils of the first and last lets say "stages", but you have not found any of the 3 middle "stages"?

Yeah, they have, look it up. Not to mentioned two things. First, its not based on that you look like a monkey. To boil it down to something so simple and wrong is just... absurd. Secondly, its not as plain and simple as 5 stages. Evolution is a process, not a jump to the next stage type thing. Has anything, anywhere, in all of time and space every been that simple? No.

Zameric
May 1st, 2010, 09:58 PM
I'm don't have a religion personally because of experiences and information I have accumulated throughout my life. To, religion was just an invention of man to help explain his surrounding and the laws of nature. But the development of science and the scientific method has also explained these things in a more realistic way. I know that religion will probably never disappear, nor do I try to force it to. Religion can coexist with science in a benevolent manner.

And I have to say that I don't like the way Atheist/People of no religion are portrayed and the media. Most of them make us out to be hateful bigots that just want to over throw all of religion, when that's actually only a small, and stupid, radical portion.

Caelus
May 1st, 2010, 10:00 PM
Well, I believe in a God, a Heaven and Hell, as well as my lord and savior, so I consider myself a christian.

That said, I'm a pretty lax christian. :/

Rich Boy Rob
May 2nd, 2010, 12:08 AM
Atheists actually have faith in a few things actually. Evolution for one :3
Really nobody can tell if evolution happened because nobody was there to record it. Even though Atheists have been proven wrong with the evolution theory, like the fact that no missing link fossils have ever been discovered. You still have faith that evolution is correct and nothing else is.
troll pl0x.

Just thought I'd jump in here and point out that missing link fossils have been found. Didn't you here about Ida last year? [LINK (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/05/090519-missing-link-found.html)]
She is a suspected missing link between Lemurs and Primates. The reason no other "missing links" have been found are because of how infinitely tiny your chances of being fossilized are. It's not as if everything that dies fossilizes, there have to be perfect conditions.

Also, as for there being no proof for evolution, any person who's paid any attention during just part of a GCSE grade biology class will tell you otherwise. For example there are certain moths that survive due the fact their white wings camouflage them with the tree they land on and the ones born with black wings get eaten. However when pollution kills the lichens on these trees they go black, so you have huge areas where only the black winged ones have survived, as their mutations helped them adapt. Oh yeah and how about bacteria? Say someone takes to many anti-biotics, they kill off all the bacteria in them right? Wrong sometimes a bacteria mutates, creating an immune strain of this bacteria. So then once the anti-biotics are taken, all the non-immune bacteria are killed, leaving plenty of space for the bacteria to multiply and thrive in (case and point: MRSA). Both of those are blindingly clear examples of natural selection, AKA the baseline of evolution.

SalemGreen
May 2nd, 2010, 04:45 AM
Im sorry but the main idea of evolution still is based off of the idea that I look similar to a monkey. And the theory that I evolved from a monkey in a million year timespan. But there is just one problem.
http://pzacad.pitzer.edu/%7Edmoore/EVOLUTION2.jpg

How is it that you can find fossils of the first and last lets say "stages", but you have not found any of the 3 middle "stages"?


At this point I'm pretty sure you're just trolling and not actually serious, in which case I apologize for my last post and tell ya to keep on Trollin', but possibly take it to a non-serious thread?

KillehKiwi
May 2nd, 2010, 06:26 AM
I am Christian, believing in one God, and that Jesus Christ is and was our Savior.

But I really don't find myself overly-religious. I find the teachings of today to be.... generic, and the "gays-are-bad-don't-ever-have-sex-fear-God-and-do-everything-you're-told-without-question-b**** that people say Christians are about.

And it's pretty much true, people of my religion judge a LOT. I, personally, am not one of them. I say do what you want, it's you're life. I support people who aren't cookie-cutter, but different! ;D

But I am Christian because I do believe we can't have just... evolved. What could we have evolved from, if there wasn't a Creator to make it all?

I do hate the pressure of religion, however. My dad shoved it down my throat as a child, and I personally hate him for doing so. I wish I could have just made my choice to have a certain religion or not, but as long as I live under their roof, I basically have to be.

But I'm a pretty lax Christian, myself.

NarutoActor
May 2nd, 2010, 03:38 PM
Uh, you guys are so silly to think the bible is against science. There is nothing in the bible chronologically wrong, or scientifically wrong. God created the world, and human kind. He also gave us the gift that we may create too.

The creation theory has more evidence to support it, then the evolution theory. :3

Gold warehouse
May 2nd, 2010, 04:04 PM
Uh, you guys are so silly to think the bible is against science. There is nothing in the bible chronologically wrong, or scientifically wrong. God created the world, and human kind. He also gave us the gift that we may create too.

The creation theory has more evidence to support it, then the evolution theory. :3

Have you ever actually read the entire bible, or ever studied evolution in detail?

NarutoActor
May 2nd, 2010, 04:20 PM
Yes to both. I had to study evolution for like a month in bio.

Gold warehouse
May 2nd, 2010, 04:29 PM
Yes to both. I had to study evolution for like a month in bio.
A whole month! I'm sure your month of biology class at school is enough to disprove Darwin's years of work coming up with an actually intellectual explanation for the progression of species.

Sneeze
May 2nd, 2010, 04:36 PM
The creation theory has more evidence to support it, then the evolution theory. :3

You're trolling right?







...right?

NarutoActor
May 2nd, 2010, 04:36 PM
Its easier to teach something rather than experiment it, and learn it for your self.

lx_theo
May 2nd, 2010, 04:58 PM
Its easier to teach something rather than experiment it, and learn it for your self.

There isn't one logical piece of evidence for creationism I've seen. Evolution is based entirely on evidence. What have you got?

Alex_
May 2nd, 2010, 05:01 PM
Uh, you guys are so silly to think the bible is against science. There is nothing in the bible chronologically wrong, or scientifically wrong. God created the world, and human kind. He also gave us the gift that we may create too.

The creation theory has more evidence to support it, then the evolution theory. :3
Is that supposed to be a serious post?

Reina
May 2nd, 2010, 05:40 PM
I'm not exactly here to say what's right and what's wrong because everyone's entitled to their own beliefs.

I follow mostly LaVeyan Satanist beliefs, so you could consider me that more or less, or just a plain 'ol agnostic.

Trap-Eds
May 2nd, 2010, 09:06 PM
I'm just gonna jump in and say that I am agnostic. I can't say that God doesn't exist, because I can't prove that. I also feel I can't say that He does exist, because, well I can't prove that either, and nothing has convinced me so far that some higer being is out there. I'm just going to practice good morals and live happily. :3

Cherrim
May 3rd, 2010, 02:47 PM
Just wanted to find out how many Pokeholics here are atheist. I am personally.

If you are, why are you?

If not, why are you not?

Simple enough.
Guys, guys, guys. Hey. Hey. Hey, guys. Remember that post? The post from the beginning of the thread? ♥ Yeah it asks you if you're an atheist and to explain yourself if you are. If you are not, it asks you to explain yourself if you aren't. That's all.

Now I realize that a thread like this will always delve into a debate of sorts, and that is fine, but remember that a debate is just that--a debate. When I start seeing name calling, or even people calling others' ideas "silly", then you're just being offensive. It is perfectly possible to debate theism and atheism without resorting to that.

This is toward both sides. We haven't gotten to the flamewar point yet but it's going down that road. So knock if off and debate this peacefully. If you cannot deal with people having different opinions than you without flaming them or their ideals, this is not the thread for you and I advise you to stop posting before infractions are handed out.

General Bravo
May 4th, 2010, 02:39 AM
Uh, you guys are so silly to think the bible is against science. There is nothing in the bible chronologically wrong, or scientifically wrong. God created the world, and human kind. He also gave us the gift that we may create too.

The creation theory has more evidence to support it, then the evolution theory. :3

The Bible is, at least to some degree, chronologically wrong. There's no way in hell humans were among the first creatures on Earth(CAN we live on boiling lava?), so that part of Genesis at least, is wrong. And the Theory of Evolution(frankly, it oughta be a law by now)has far more concrete and supporting evidence than creationism.

My theory: God caused the Big Bang, making the universe. Then he allowed things to work out for themselves across the universe, including the formation of life-forms on our and at least a few other planets(odds are infinitesmally small that we are the only planet in the universe with some form of life).

Guillermo
May 4th, 2010, 04:16 AM
Guys, guys, guys. Hey. Hey. Hey, guys. Remember that post? The post from the beginning of the thread? ♥ Yeah it asks you if you're an atheist and to explain yourself if you are. If you are not, it asks you to explain yourself if you aren't. That's all.

Now I realize that a thread like this will always delve into a debate of sorts, and that is fine, but remember that a debate is just that--a debate. When I start seeing name calling, or even people calling others' ideas "silly", then you're just being offensive. It is perfectly possible to debate theism and atheism without resorting to that.

This is toward both sides. We haven't gotten to the flamewar point yet but it's going down that road. So knock if off and debate this peacefully. If you cannot deal with people having different opinions than you without flaming them or their ideals, this is not the thread for you and I advise you to stop posting before infractions are handed out.
You're just being silly, Erica. Gosh.

Also, about the whole evidence thing, how did a thread on religion turn to evolution? Seriously, there's no evidence there was a man named Jesus who came along and turned water to wine, gave blind people their sight back and then died on a cross for it all. You can say the Bible is evidence, and yes it kind of is, but I personally do not believe a book talking about Jesus is enough to base an entire religion off of. All the readings and stories of Jesus came well after his death, from people who had never met an earthly Jesus and based their beliefs on what their ancestors told them.

There's holes in Christianity, as there is in every other religion.

Porygon-Z
May 4th, 2010, 04:29 AM
I'm a Christian, but I think it's important to meditate on your own beliefs rather than being spoonfed what to believe.

I think if you're a religious person you have to also be a philosopher to some extent and ask yourself important questions about what you believe and set aside what you've been told.

Look at religion objectively, place it under scrutiny and question it. Think about how God could exist and what His relationship is to you. If you set aside some time just to think on these matters you'll find your answers.

For some people those answers lead them to God and that's how I found religion again after being out of touch with God.

Jolene
May 4th, 2010, 08:36 AM
I am an athiest and I am intolerant of those who are not.

NarutoActor
May 4th, 2010, 01:41 PM
The Bible is, at least to some degree, chronologically wrong. There's no way in hell humans were among the first creatures on Earth(CAN we live on boiling lava?), so that part of Genesis at least, is wrong. And the Theory of Evolution(frankly, it oughta be a law by now)has far more concrete and supporting evidence than creationism.

My theory: God caused the Big Bang, making the universe. Then he allowed things to work out for themselves across the universe, including the formation of life-forms on our and at least a few other planets(odds are infinitesmally small that we are the only planet in the universe with some form of life).It could mean 7 godly days. Which would mean 7,000 70,000 or 700,000. Ever thought about that?

also I said that point was silly, and had no backbone. I wasn't saying atheism is silly. (also I use silly alot, why do people on pc take silly has an extreme insult?)

Ursula
May 4th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Also, about the whole evidence thing, how did a thread on religion turn to evolution? Seriously, there's no evidence there was a man named Jesus who came along and turned water to wine, gave blind people their sight back and then died on a cross for it all. You can say the Bible is evidence, and yes it kind of is, but I personally do not believe a book talking about Jesus is enough to base an entire religion off of. All the readings and stories of Jesus came well after his death, from people who had never met an earthly Jesus and based their beliefs on what their ancestors told them.
Again, that's the whole purpose of faith. :)
faith
–noun1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact
Ergo, the Bible is all the evidence that they need. :p

123BOOM
May 4th, 2010, 02:23 PM
i was an atheist. now i am a satanist. the bible says god will destroy earth and all humans. were all gonna die and there is nothing you can do about it. even if you belive in god, you must believe in satan. if you dont believe in god... yah

NickofTime
May 4th, 2010, 02:32 PM
YAY ATHEISM seriously though its kinda like ..bleh the idea is cool, but not practical, the whole thing is about denial, i mean atheism is the denial of god unless there is proof. being agnostic is pretty much keeping your mind open to the possibilities
Atheism is like the essence of being condescending " oh you are religious, u know there is a bunch of lies in the bible, i mean arent you advanced?" seriously thats bs
btw look at all the trolls... THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM
but if you look at the above posts its kinda like... hating on christianity and stuff. Kinda like.... intolerant and stuff
maybe evelution is gods plan WHAT NOW

Ursula
May 4th, 2010, 03:02 PM
YAY ATHEISM seriously though its kinda like ..bleh the idea is cool, but not practical, the whole thing is about denial, i mean atheism is the denial of god unless there is proof. being agnostic is pretty much keeping your mind open to the possibilities
Atheism is like the essence of being condescending " oh you are religious, u know there is a bunch of lies in the bible, i mean arent you advanced?" seriously thats bs
btw look at all the trolls... THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM
but if you look at the above posts its kinda like... hating on christianity and stuff. Kinda like.... intolerant and stuff
maybe evelution is gods plan WHAT NOW
You're being condescending as well, and this post sounds pretty intolerant. ^^;
Not all Atheists are condescending, ya know. And, you're kinda hatin' on atheism which is intolerant too :p

Åzurε
May 4th, 2010, 06:38 PM
It could mean 7 godly days. Which would mean 7,000 70,000 or 700,000. Ever thought about that?

Or God, being God, just made the planet cool enough to live on in the first place. ;) The Hebrew for that passage uses "days" in a literal, typical sense. The sun comes up, the sun goes down, and that's a day. Nothing to read into.

Relevant thought- It's interesting how lots of people, even those who believe it, don't take it as literally as they would some other piece of non-fiction. The Bible is very literal, something you can tell upon seeing the Hebrew and Greek. The only exceptions tend to be visions. Plenty of things have sub-meanings and parallels, but when it says "this happened", that's what it means. End thought.

Timbjerr
May 4th, 2010, 07:47 PM
Also, about the whole evidence thing, how did a thread on religion turn to evolution? Seriously, there's no evidence there was a man named Jesus who came along and turned water to wine, gave blind people their sight back and then died on a cross for it all. You can say the Bible is evidence, and yes it kind of is, but I personally do not believe a book talking about Jesus is enough to base an entire religion off of. All the readings and stories of Jesus came well after his death, from people who had never met an earthly Jesus and based their beliefs on what their ancestors told them.

There's holes in Christianity, as there is in every other religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_christ

Yeah...whether you believe him to be the messiah or not, biblical scholars and historians can at least agree to the fact that he existed, led a life of teaching philosophy, and was ultimately crucified. XD

RuRuBell
May 4th, 2010, 07:48 PM
YAY ATHEISM seriously though its kinda like ..bleh the idea is cool, but not practical, the whole thing is about denial, i mean atheism is the denial of god unless there is proof. being agnostic is pretty much keeping your mind open to the possibilities
Atheism is like the essence of being condescending " oh you are religious, u know there is a bunch of lies in the bible, i mean arent you advanced?" seriously thats bs
btw look at all the trolls... THERE ARE SO MANY OF THEM
but if you look at the above posts its kinda like... hating on christianity and stuff. Kinda like.... intolerant and stuff
maybe evelution is gods plan WHAT NOW

I don't see how not believing in god makes you condescending...? I don't know, I think the way you worded it was awkward. There's a difference between denying, in my opinion, and simply not believing. To deny, to me, implies that you know it's there, but refuse to believe it.

Not all Atheists say things like that. Most can respect that people have different opinions. While we may not agree, most of us don't think any lesser about people who place their belief in religion. It's their choice, not ours. :s

NickofTime
May 4th, 2010, 07:57 PM
You're being condescending as well, and this post sounds pretty intolerant. ^^;
Not all Atheists are condescending, ya know. And, you're kinda hatin' on atheism which is intolerant too :p

woah woah woah... something says "WILD MODERATOR HAS APPEARED"

BAIT - MUD
BALL- RUN

im going for bait
Why did the atheist cross the road?
He thought there might be a street on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.
Atheism is about denial, it is the refusal that there is a god unless there is proof.
and yet if there is proof there is no faith involved
Also every christian knows that not all of the bible is true, however the morals are very helpful in today's society as guidelines
everyone knows not to believe everything they read. Not every christian goes around trying to burn the non believers on stakes and thinking that god created man and woman first. As times change so do the way people think of the world, so it is natural what people think of religion changes and thus no one thinks the world flooded anymore. Though is it a bad thing to think that perserving the worlds species is a positive thing for the world? no it is not.
Ruru here is the definition of atheism in this linkBTW WOW I DIDNT THINK I WOULD GET GOOGLE CHROME TO OWN YOU LOLhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:atheist&ei=Pe3gS_TPPJOQsgPE1qCABQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

Åzurε
May 4th, 2010, 08:46 PM
Also every christian knows that not all of the bible is true, however the morals are very helpful in today's society as guidelines
everyone knows not to believe everything they read. Not every christian goes around trying to burn the non believers on stakes and thinking that god created man and woman first.

As a Christian meself, I'll say, "I believe all of the Bible is true". Context is key, though.
I... think you're getting jumbled in the details, but whatever. Unimportant. No, not all Christians look down on non-Christians. And the Creation actually ends with humans being made.

Timbjerr
May 4th, 2010, 09:02 PM
woah woah woah... something says "WILD MODERATOR HAS APPEARED"

BAIT - MUD
BALL- RUN

im going for bait
Why did the atheist cross the road?
He thought there might be a street on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.
Atheism is about denial, it is the refusal that there is a god unless there is proof.
and yet if there is proof there is no faith involved
Also every christian knows that not all of the bible is true, however the morals are very helpful in today's society as guidelines
everyone knows not to believe everything they read. Not every christian goes around trying to burn the non believers on stakes and thinking that god created man and woman first. As times change so do the way people think of the world, so it is natural what people think of religion changes and thus no one thinks the world flooded anymore. Though is it a bad thing to think that perserving the worlds species is a positive thing for the world? no it is not.
Ruru here is the definition of atheism in this linkBTW WOW I DIDNT THINK I WOULD GET GOOGLE CHROME TO OWN YOU LOLhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:atheist&ei=Pe3gS_TPPJOQsgPE1qCABQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

I get where you're coming from and what you're trying to say, and I agree to an extent...but isn't there a more civil way to say it instead of simply assuming that everyone on the other side of the debate is inherently hostile?

Guillermo
May 5th, 2010, 01:46 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_christ

Yeah...whether you believe him to be the messiah or not, biblical scholars and historians can at least agree to the fact that he existed, led a life of teaching philosophy, and was ultimately crucified. XD
Oh, wow. You're countering my argument with a Wikipedia entry? Wikipedia isn't reliable, bud. Anyone can edit that.

Besides, there's no physical proof he existed. No clothing, no DNA, nothing. There's words some people wrote down from generation to generation. Sure, a Jesus may have existed, but I don't believe he was 'the son of God' and I don't believe he could perform miracles. At most, he was a prophet who spoke to his people and they lived on his every word.

I'm not saying he did not exist. I'm saying I don't think there's enough proof for me to, personally, believe he did. However, if he did, then I salute the man. He taught well, and if he truly was crucified, then I hope one day to meet him in Heaven, if it does truly exist. I'd like to thank him.

I have nothing against Christians, and what they wish to believe is their own.

Gold warehouse
May 5th, 2010, 02:50 AM
Atheism is about denial, it is the refusal that there is a god unless there is proof.
and yet if there is proof there is no faith involved
It's about weighing up all the information and theories and making a decision based on what you think is the most logical explanation. To be honest, one book and a lot of preachings and claims of faith isn't really enough to make me believe in something as radical as a God. Also, there's plenty of denial in Christianity aswell, like the denial of every other religion.
Also every christian knows that not all of the bible is true, however the morals are very helpful in today's society as guidelinesPeople are capable of making their own morals and guidelines. There are plenty of atheists that are good, decent people without needing a bible to tell them how to behave.
everyone knows not to believe everything they read. Not every christian goes around trying to burn the non believers on stakes and thinking that god created man and woman first. As times change so do the way people think of the world, so it is natural what people think of religion changes and thus no one thinks the world flooded anymore.Once several things in the bible have been proven wrong it's hard to see the rest of it as being reliable.

Ursula
May 5th, 2010, 12:33 PM
Atheism is about denial, it is the refusal that there is a god unless there is proof.
and yet if there is proof there is no faith involved
Err, no. Faith is what religion is based on. It's belief in the Bible, and belief in Its word being true. Lol.

Not every christian goes around trying to burn the non believers on stakes and thinking that god created man and woman first.
You say that but then you say . .
Ruru here is the definition of atheism in this linkBTW WOW I DIDNT THINK I WOULD GET GOOGLE CHROME TO OWN YOU LOLhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&d...e&ved=0CAYQkAE (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:atheist&ei=Pe3gS_TPPJOQsgPE1qCABQ&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE)

Wikipedia isn't reliable, bud. Anyone can edit that.
What ever makes you think that? It might've been like that at one time, but now, Wikipedia is patrolled by a bunch of people who like monitor it and make sure nothing stupid is added. That's why they have the reference/sources section. :/
If you edit crap in, it'll be fixed. And . . more than likely, you'll get a warning, or if it's severe/repeated, you'll get banned from Wikipedia. D:

For more information on whether or not Jesus existed, you might want to read this site (http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Divin/D-0201.htm). Apparently, he's mentioned by several non-Christian historians of the time period.
Furthermore, you might be interested in reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus)
And specifically this as information about him existing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus).
However, there's also theories about him not existing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory), so yeah. :B

Rich Boy Rob
May 5th, 2010, 01:47 PM
im going for bait
Why did the atheist cross the road?
He thought there might be a street on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.
Atheism is about denial, it is the refusal that there is a god unless there is proof.

No. I shall first answer your ridiculous intolerant joke with a ridiculous intolerant joke: Why was the Christian hit by a car? Because he didn't realise there was no street on the other side.

Now for my proper answer. In reality, an Atheist (or a logic based scientifically minded person) would check that there was a path on the other side by Stopping. Looking. Listening. performing scientific tests based on observation and logic.

Chibi-chan
May 5th, 2010, 01:57 PM
Ok, this thread is getting a bit out of hand.
It is near impossible to change someone's opinion and better yet, RELIGION on a Pokemon forum. These types of arguments just keep going and going, spawning one attack after another until they just turn heated.

Locked