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View Full Version : Power to the people.


Fox♠
May 12th, 2010, 09:05 AM
As members of PC, do any of you feel you should have more power/ a bigger say in the goings ons of the community? Do you think it's fair for staff to make all the decissions or would you rather there was a vote based system on issues? Obviously things like bans and infractions are at, and should be at, the staff's control, but personally I've always thought we should have a more powerful say in things like the rep system, name changes, blogs, applications etc.

And no Mork, before you close this for "trolling" this isn't a troll thread, this isn't to get any angry reactions, this is inspired by the election in the UK

PkMnTrainer Yellow
May 12th, 2010, 09:10 AM
applications? o.O What do you mean by applications?

I think the staff do a wonderful job pleasing the community, and as a direct result have no urge to take any of the power away from them.

Fox♠
May 12th, 2010, 09:12 AM
applications? o.O What do you mean by applications?

I think the staff do a wonderful job pleasing the community, and as a direct result have no urge to take any of the power away from them.

Applications like vCards, supporter system, IRC etc etc.

PkMnTrainer Yellow
May 12th, 2010, 09:18 AM
Oh, I see. Well, like I said. I feel highly satisfied with the way the staff handles the site. I don't feel like I'd be able to trust the public to do as good let alone better.

Fox♠
May 12th, 2010, 09:24 AM
That's fair enough. There were some decisions I made as mod that i don't think the people in my section would of voted for at the time, but in the end were beneficial.

RTHookers
May 12th, 2010, 09:29 AM
I think they should remove the 25 char limit.
Sometimes it's ridicoulus and I have to put something stupid just to make the post a little longer.
Other than that not much, since I'm mostly at S&M and we have the awesome mod called Dark Azelf there so there isn't much probs.
Most of the time at S&M it's best to stay quiet so DA won't own you.
Staff and other rules are okay, we can always go to the second forum on the main forum I can't remember how it's called.

Ayselipera
May 12th, 2010, 03:02 PM
I guess it would be nice if the community had a little vote for certain features on the forum. I'd like name changes to come back, but I know that causes problems for the server so unless there is some way they can fix that I don't see why we would vote it back in. The only thing that comes to mind that I would like to vote on is blogs being more accessible to members who haven't donated. I know that would defeat some of the purpose of donating and some members would just write spammy blogs, but it would be a nice trial run for those of us who would use it correctly. :)

I don't believe any regular members should be able to vote back in the rep system either. The only thing I enjoyed about rep was reading everyone else's rant blogs and some thread that popped up about it when it was at it's worst. Besides all that fun it was a mess.

Timbjerr
May 12th, 2010, 04:17 PM
I distinctly remember all the staff-bashing that came our way during the short period when I was on the upper staff. It was never fun, but look at it this way: We can have an open vote for everyone to get involved, creating weeks of debate and banter, ultimately allowing people who are either apathetic to the issue or can't relate to it at all casting empty votes that may outnumber the people who are legitimately concerned or knowledgeable, or we could leave our trust in the small group of people that are known to be responsible and mature enough to come to decisions quickly.

I vote for the latter. Besides, the staff is quite used to taking heat from unpopular decisions by now.

NarutoActor
May 12th, 2010, 06:04 PM
On small scale things, yes. More large scale things that really affect every member should be decided by the higher ups.

Izanagi
May 12th, 2010, 06:11 PM
Really, my only problem with this forum is the 25 character limit. That crap is retarded, no lie.

Shadow
May 12th, 2010, 07:41 PM
I think they should remove the 25 char limit.
Sometimes it's ridicoulus and I have to put something stupid just to make the post a little longer.
Other than that not much, since I'm mostly at S&M and we have the awesome mod called Dark Azelf there so there isn't much probs.
Most of the time at S&M it's best to stay quiet so DA won't own you.
Staff and other rules are okay, we can always go to the second forum on the main forum I can't remember how it's called.

If your post doesn't have 25 characters, it's not worth it to be posted. And you really shouldn't abbreviate anything as "S&M." Just sayin'...

And having members vote on things is a terrible idea. The forum would be incredibly slow (seriously, what member would have given up name changes since everyone was so obsessed with getting a new one every 2 days), clunky, and chaotic. There's a reason things are done by people who have proven themselves to be mature (after we got rid of people jumping on board for owning a website...).

.Gamer
May 12th, 2010, 07:55 PM
No, PC has too many conflicting ideas and stuff to ever get anything done. Members would bicker too much and nothing would come from it.

ReyRey-Pyon
May 12th, 2010, 08:00 PM
Nah. Im pretty satisfied with the way things are now. The staff is doing a good job. i probably wouldn't know what i'd want anyways XD

some of the decisions the staff has made may have been unpopular, but i think in the end its for the best. thats why they were chosen oAo

yeah the character limits are annoying at times, but thats to make conversations more interesting oAo

who wants to see a thread filled with replies like ''lol'' "i agree" "Thats cool" etc etc :C

Forever
May 12th, 2010, 09:02 PM
Wow, I was just thinking about this earlier.
I think we should get more input overall, though being friends with Audy/Erica has its advantages... so meh. XD;

Being able to vote for PC president, anyone? :D

Ausaudriel
May 12th, 2010, 09:24 PM
Well, okay, a few points to make.

Members are the ones who vote on things, because all of us who are mods or admins are just as much members as you are. If you look at it as though we're two separate entities then that explains a lot of why you were unsuccessful as a moderator here. Remember that every single one of us (I'm not counting Steve because he rarely gets involved in staff voting/matters/discussions) that run PC started out as members ourselves, and if you try to segregate us off the moment we gain extra responsibilities it's just going to make our jobs that much more difficult.

I'm sure a lot of people remember the issues we had with the community site admins and how they instantly started having input into big staff matters without having to be active in the community first. Look how well that turned out. Horrible decisions without fully understanding PC lead to terrible staff infighting and tons of drama that, quite frankly, we just didn't need on a Pokemon forum. Now apply those select 10 or 15 people to the 200,000 people we have on this forum (or I guess to the 20,000 active members), and we have an even bigger problem.

The reason we have staff is because regular members are recognized for their excellence and given the opportunity to do exactly what you're suggesting--have a say in how things are run here on the forums. How do you think ANY of us got to the places we're in now? By years of showing time after time that we have what it takes to make level-headed decisions for the benefit of the community. Of course we can never please everyone, so there'll always be people who rant and rave about us being corrupt and terrible and need to be removed etc. etc., but on the whole I'd say we do a pretty damn good job. Every year PC gets bigger and bigger and the vast, vast majority of members are happy with how the forums are run.

Bottom line is that we can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but we can never please all of the people all of the time. Anyone who expects us to is naive and idealistic and has expectations that nobody, let alone a bunch of teenagers and young adults who are still growing themselves, can live up to.

Elite Overlord LeSabre™
May 12th, 2010, 09:50 PM
Right now, I see no problem with how things are run, which is more than I can say for other forums that I've removed myself from. As for PC, the staff does a very good job with making decisions that affect the board, and I'd hate to see bad things happen by giving the power to make decisions to people who aren't mature enough to make good ones.

Guillermo
May 12th, 2010, 11:31 PM
Eh, I don't know. I do kind of miss rep, but again, it's not the end of the world if I'm not entitled to vote on huge things. At the end of the day, I'm a member, and I respect where I am on the food-chain. I joined as a member, knowing what I would and wouldn't be able to do and I respect that.

Fox♠
May 13th, 2010, 01:17 AM
If you look at it as though we're two separate entities then that explains a lot of why you were unsuccessful as a moderator here.

Pretty sure personal issues and other commitments is why I quit lol, not because I viewed the staff as any different to other members. To say I was unsuccessful is laughable especially considering Pixel art has gone down the bog now since I've gone and since you guys have done little to fix it;

Also you know full well there are some staff who view of themselves as above other members. But kudos on turning my original, fun topic into a self percieved attack on the staff.

T3h Kaiser
May 13th, 2010, 01:49 AM
I'm sure a lot of people remember the issues we had with the community site admins and how they instantly started having input into big staff matters without having to be active in the community first. Look how well that turned out. Horrible decisions without fully understanding PC lead to terrible staff infighting and tons of drama that, quite frankly, we just didn't need on a Pokemon forum. Now apply those select 10 or 15 people to the 200,000 people we have on this forum (or I guess to the 20,000 active members), and we have an even bigger problem.


^This, particularly the bold text.

If there's one thing I've really learned it's that the smaller your team, the tighter your results.

I've tried running a site with a staff of twenty or so and it just didn't hold together and we were constantly at each others throats. Now I'm running a much more successful site with a staff of only five, and we all get along famously.

Further, look at the difference between mainstream game development and indie game development. Smaller teams - usually just one or two people - are able craft games that are much more focused due to a healthier work environment, and due to the fact that they aren't having to deal with so many voices at once.

The more people you have working, the more time you have to spend sorting through everyone's two cents.

Democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be. There is a staff for a reason. Letting the community have any real say, especially with such a large community as this one, would be pretty disastrous. Empirical data aside, that should be common sense.

But kudos on turning my original, fun topic into a self percieved attack on the staff.

If you're concerned with your thread derailing, why respond with such bitterness? You could always just, oh, I don't know... talk to Aus privately about the matter.

Fox♠
May 13th, 2010, 01:57 AM
If you're concerned with your thread derailing, why respond with such bitterness? You could always just, oh, I don't know... talk to Aus privately about the matter.

I'm not gonna go into a big rant at you because I do agree with some of your points bar this one; Why is it ok for a staff member to make a personal, derailing jibe in a thread but when a non staff member replies they get a sarky comment?

T3h Kaiser
May 13th, 2010, 02:04 AM
Why is it ok for a staff member to make a personal, derailing jibe in a thread but when a non staff member replies they get a sarky comment?

I never said it was okay.

My advice is the same no matter what I personally thought of what Aus posted.

Fox♠
May 13th, 2010, 02:42 AM
I never said it was okay.

My advice is the same no matter what I personally thought of what Aus posted.

Yet you only highlighted my reply, paying no mind to the original inflamitory comment, no? That's interesting, a lot of the community happily do that. With attitudes like that, maybe even with a voting system everything would pan out the same way anyway.

Dukey
May 13th, 2010, 02:44 AM
I think honestly, they're there for a reason so their opinions are generally okay.
Honestly though if people are gonna get riled up over a staff decision, take a look at yourself. Getting angry over a fun little Pokemon forum xD

curiousnathan
May 13th, 2010, 02:50 AM
As members of PC, do any of you feel you should have more power/ a bigger say in the goings ons of the community? Do you think it's fair for staff to make all the decissions or would you rather there was a vote based system on issues? Obviously things like bans and infractions are at, and should be at, the staff's control, but personally I've always thought we should have a more powerful say in things like the rep system, name changes, blogs, applications etc.

And no Mork, before you close this for "trolling" this isn't a troll thread, this isn't to get any angry reactions, this is inspired by the election in the UK
Well the staff are doing a fantastic job at making the Community a great place to be apart of. However, voting on the name changing system is not necissary. Considering that the staff have stoped due to the saftey of the PC servers. But meh I am happy with the way things are going, no complaints from me.

T3h Kaiser
May 13th, 2010, 02:54 AM
Yet you only highlighted my reply, paying no mind to the original inflamitory comment, no? That's interesting, a lot of the community happily do that. With attitudes like that, maybe even with a voting system everything would pan out the same way anyway.

I'm not even sure I fully understand what you're trying to insinuate here. I know full well what the original "inflammatory comment" was, and I never said it was a very nice thing to say. My point still stands: you are turning this into a situation, when all you needed to do was speak with Aus privately. Please understand that all you are doing right now is derailing the thread further, which is what you claimed to be outraged about in the first place.

take a look at yourself. Getting angry over a fun little Pokemon forum xD

:)

Fox♠
May 13th, 2010, 03:05 AM
I never said it was okay.

My advice is the same no matter what I personally thought of what Aus posted.

I'm not even sure I fully understand what you're trying to insinuate here. I know full well what the original "inflammatory comment" was, and I never said it was a very nice thing to say. My point still stands: you are turning this into a situation, when all you needed to do was speak with Aus privately. Please understand that all you are doing right now is derailing the thread further, which is what you claimed to be outraged about in the first place.



:)

Actually I was more peeved at someone who knew the real reasons I left staff trying to make things look differently to what they were and resorting to a personal jibe, surely that's not beyond understandable.

Curious; I didn't literally mean name changes, that was just an example of a big community change, one that there wasn't an alternative to, I understand that.

curiousnathan
May 13th, 2010, 03:11 AM
Curious; I didn't literally mean name changes, that was just an example of a big community change, one that there wasn't an alternative to, I understand that.
Oh sorry, haha. But I do actually think that PC is doing fine and without many people realiseing, we already vote. We are all moderators making PC safe and productive.

Fox♠
May 13th, 2010, 03:15 AM
Oh sorry, haha. But I do actually think that PC is doing fine and without many people realiseing, we already vote. We are all moderators making PC safe and productive.

Nah it's cool I probably didn't word it very clearly. By "we are all making PC safe" do you mean via reporting?

curiousnathan
May 13th, 2010, 03:23 AM
Nah it's cool I probably didn't word it very clearly. By "we are all making PC safe" do you mean via reporting?
I probably didn't word that write either, and yes; I meant reporting so the community is productive.

Cherrim
May 13th, 2010, 05:05 AM
I think it would be interesting to let more members have a say in PC issues, but trying to figure out the logistics of it would be kind of a disaster. :s

I mean, sometimes it's already hard to decide which decisions are best left to Staff Admins, which include all admins, which are higher staff only, and the ones that involve the whole staff. :s And honestly, when we DO make decisions at even the moderator level, it often takes forever because there are so many opinions to take into account and with big issues, you never want to make a black-and-white decision. :/

It's not as easy as throwing up a poll and saying "Do we want to suspend name changes because x?" and letting people vote yes or no. There are discussions to be had, possible alternatives to consider, and tons of ideas to go through. Name changes weren't a mod-level decision but even if they had been, it would've taken much longer to debate than it originally did just in the Mod Lounge. Now translate that down to Q&F (or even the VIP Forum for Supporters) and you exponentially increase the time it takes to discuss. :( Threads derail so easily when more people are talking in them. So any discussions that did come from it would take forever to root through and a general consensus would be near-impossible.

For decisions that DO only require a yes/no answer, I guess it would be interesting to take them out of the staff forums once in a while, but I'm having trouble thinking of any issues that really match this requisite. XD;

Forever
May 13th, 2010, 05:23 AM
For decisions that DO only require a yes/no answer, I guess it would be interesting to take them out of the staff forums once in a while, but I'm having trouble thinking of any issues that really match this requisite. XD;

Should Erica and Audy get together?

Should members be able to post their own calendar events & approve them?

PkMnTrainer Yellow
May 13th, 2010, 07:08 AM
If your post doesn't have 25 characters, it's not worth it to be posted. And you really shouldn't abbreviate anything as "S&M." Just sayin'...

And having members vote on things is a terrible idea. The forum would be incredibly slow (seriously, what member would have given up name changes since everyone was so obsessed with getting a new one every 2 days), clunky, and chaotic. There's a reason things are done by people who have proven themselves to be mature (after we got rid of people jumping on board for owning a website...).

I know right? What is the abbreviated form of what he was trying to say?

As a roleplayer I have very little difficulty meeting the 25 character limit and often don't even think about it. It's just that easy for me to meet.

I think people just need to realize this is not an instant messenger, so they should not be posting things less than 1/4 as large as a Tweet.

Ever thought of it that way? That's right, 25 characters is THAT little. The previous sentence was well over 25 characters.

abnegation
May 14th, 2010, 08:16 AM
In my opinion, letting members having more of a say in what goes on in pokecommunity couldn't do too much harm for the forum. However, I wouldn't entirely agree if members were to have any added power as such. For example, if there were to be a vote on a suggestion which staff are against yet members are all for and the members' choice wins by majority, it may not be what is best for the forum in terms of how it runs.

In contrast with this, members do have the option to post a thread outlining their questions or suggestions for the community within CQ&F. Though this doesn't exactly mean that members have extra power but at least if they have a good idea in their head, it will be taken into consideration and all members have the opportunity to cast their opinion on the matter.

As I think it had been stated above whilst I was reading through the thread, staff are as just as much of members as those who are not on the forum leaders page. The rules apply to every member equally thus making the way in which we post equal with the exception of the certain extra power of having access to a mod/admin CP. So rather than having thousands of people all discussing a topic and wether or not it should be implemented we have the staff members who -by majority- have been at PC for quite a while and know the ropes and how far they can bounce off them. Of course any member's opinion is as valid as those on the staff but rather than having every topic open to the public where there may be many many replies which may take a lot of time to analyze, we have a handful of members discussing it. It's rare a wrong decision is made.

In contrast with that, I agree that sometimes members are a little cut off from the decisions that go through on PC and it would be nice to see some things be more publicized but of course to an extent. It's best to keep the major decisions behind the scenes and possibly some more light hearted or less serious ones out in the open so that the average PC goer can fling their two cents on the table and feel as if they have had more of an input on what happens on PC. I'm not sure on an example of what might be a good public discussion when it comes to a 2 way decision but it'd be something I'd like to see somewhere down the line.

Fox♠
May 14th, 2010, 11:29 AM
Woah, guys, I'm not suggesting the staff actually implement this, that'd be crazy, I was just talking hyperthetically.

Bluerang1
May 14th, 2010, 12:54 PM
After listening to my BW Legendary idea, so they do a great job! They listen and have our best interest at heart. Though I hate the Board closing, especially when it's surpassed one page.

Melody
May 14th, 2010, 04:15 PM
I'm not even sure I fully understand what you're trying to insinuate here. I know full well what the original "inflammatory comment" was, and I never said it was a very nice thing to say. My point still stands: you are turning this into a situation, when all you needed to do was speak with Aus privately. Please understand that all you are doing right now is derailing the thread further, which is what you claimed to be outraged about in the first place.


Stop for a moment and realize that Fox is a former staff member himself. He is quite right about the staff being able to derail a thread without getting any apparent action on them. It's clearly a case of "Who will Guard the Guardians?" here.

On the other hand, the staff do have to put up with some pretty gnarly whiny babies here, so I feel that they're entitled to be a little bit snarky at you if you're honestly breaking a rule with complete disregard and disrespect...especially when you're on the receiving end of discipline.

With that being said, I will agree that sometimes a small group of staff members can get a little more 'arrogant' than a larger group of staff members can. This is in no way insulting the current staff, or their ideals of a small group being effective, but I still think that a few more members of staff couldn't harm the team dynamic at all if they choose them carefully. Of course not all of the staff members are arrogant, in fact, most of the upper staff are quite friendly most of the time and most of the moderators are the same way. Sure, you're going to have some hard-ass staff members on the team to take care of the trouble spots, but in no way are they that terribly bad off.

To be honest, I'm kinda glad the Community Site Admins got the boot, because things are much quieter. I will admit that I opposed this decision vehemently myself, because the CS admins were nice guys, but I suppose there was just this 'arrogance' on the part of the lower admins who earned their positions. The CS admins didn't help things either, they simply treated the lower admins poorly and paid little attention to procedure...so in the end it wasn't too bad of a decision. What really killed things for the CS admins was that they simply rage quit after a short period of being stuck at Staff Admin level. (Immature much?)

With all that being said, I feel that members SHOULD have MUCH MORE say in what goes on around PC, when it comes down to simple decisions which aren't critical to operation or staffing itself. I do hate how sometimes if staff are discussing a matter in public (like via IRC in the public access channel) tend to treat members who chime in with their two cents like dirt. I've gotten a lot of enmity from staff for chiming in my two cents around when I can, but to be honest, I just wish the same things for PC that the staff does, and I've been here as long as some of the senior staff members. o.o

Weatherman, Kiyoshi
May 14th, 2010, 04:49 PM
'Cause you know PokeCommunity is facist.

I do like the idea of a bit more democracy in PC's systems, some things do need a change.

The 25 character limit, should just leave at 4 words, since [filler] comments are more caused by this. Creating more SPAM. >.>"

Some things that people are infracted for seems a bit over-edge,
but the Staff do a wonderful job running this page.

Who knows, without them, PC might be worse-mannered then 4Chan!

I declare May 14th "Hug a Staff Member Day" :D

TheUltimateSacrifice
May 14th, 2010, 11:39 PM
As long as staff are consistently chosen from the plebeians, everything should be running smoothly, and be acceptable enough for a strong majority. It's only a Pokemon forum, anyway; nothing revolutionary.

I laugh hard at the people that talk about the performance of the staff, as if it has any relevance.