Pirate Bay Founders Going to Jail

[Purple Materia]

This fits right into the recent shock and awe campaign against Internet piracy (read about OnSmash and RapGodFathers if you haven’t already). Yesterday, founders Fredrik Neij, Peter Sunde, Carl Lundstrom, and Gottfrid Svartholm Warg of The Pirate Bay Bittorrent site were denied their appeal to their jail sentences, having been found guilty of assisting the piracy of copyrighted material last year, and are facing hefty charges for their crimes.

The Swedish pirates (minus Gottfrid, who was stricken with “illness”) appeared in court yesterday and were awarded ten, eight, and four month jail sentences respectively along with a hefty £4.1 million ($6.3 million American dollars) fine for their crimes against various record labels.

Francis Moore, CEO of the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry represented the music industry at the hearing, and gladly applauded the sentences doled out to the Swedish music pirates:

“Today’s judgement confirms the illegality of The Pirate Bay and the seriousness of the crimes of those involved,” she said. "We now look to governments and ISPs to take note of this judgment, do the responsible thing and take the necessary steps to get The Pirate Bay shut down."

Yes, The Pirate Bay is still up and running, and according to their blog, the site is “the most resilient bittorrent site” on the Internet. It’s a good site for what it does (I may or may not have used it), and is ranked as the 91st most popular website in the world, having over 4 million registered users. If you’ve never visited, it’s a website that indexes Bittorrent files including music, movies, video games, and various other “illegal” things." Though it still operates, it has been banned in a handful of countries including Germany, China, and the U.K. Check it out if you're interested: thepiratebay.org

No, ICE, I'm not condoning the use of the website.

Ouch. That really sucks for them. A grave day in the name of piracy.
What are your thoughts about this?

[Amai]

They broke the law, so they should be in jail.

[HeyMikey]

They broke the law, so they should be in jail.

Yeah this basically. Not meaning that I'm pleased, though. I used to use TPB quite a lot, and illegal or not, a lot of work and contribution was put into that place.


Though it still operates, it has been banned in a handful of countries including Germany, China, and the U.K.

Just nitpicking the article here, it doesn't seem to have been banned here in the UK. I can still load pages on it just fine.

[JakeyBoy]

Just nitpicking the article here, it doesn't seem to have been banned here in the UK. I can still load pages on it just fine.

Same. However that might have something to do with the next thing I say - I'm pretty sure I heard about this ages ago. What's the date on the article?

[Stratos99]

They broke the law, so they should be in jail.
lmao, do you even know the fine line they're walking or are you just going to nod your head along in ignorance as if they just killed somebody?

[HeyMikey]

@ JakeyBoy, I'd link you to the original article, but I don't have enough posts to post URLs yet. :v

The article is dated 27/11/10. So, yesterday.

[JakeyBoy]

Ok. I guess I'm thinking of the time it got "closed (http://thetechnopath.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/PirateBayTShirt.png)".

lmao, do you even know the fine line they're walking or are you just going to nod your head along in ignorance as if they just killed somebody?Are you actually disputing whether downloading half the stuff on TPB is legal or not? Really? The fine line you are referring to is for morals.

[Stratos99]

Are you actually disputing whether downloading half the stuff on TPB is legal or not? Really? The fine line you are referring to is for morals.

What users upload to the site isn't the fault of the owner, what is being legally disputed is the negligence to take things down and if you've been following the lawsuits you'd know it took quite a while and a lot of loopholes for them to finally get arrested.

As for me the moral line you're referring to it doesn't exist for me, I know that if I download a copyrighted file it's illegal but it doesn't provoke any emotion from me on whether or not what I'm doing is right or wrong in the sense where morals apply because I know the companies aren't going out of business.

Yes, "really".

[KanadeTenshi]

Piracy is going to still be on, regardless of if TPB keeps running or not.
There are always going to be other methods.

[txteclipse]

They broke the law, so they should be in jail.

This.

Also:

As for me the moral line you're referring to doesn't exist, I know that if I download a copyrighted file it's illegal but it doesn't provoke any emotion from me on whether or not what I'm doing is right or wrong in the sense where morals apply because I know the companies aren't going out of business.

You don't have to have morals, but that won't excuse you from justice.

[QuilavaKing]

Ironic, the guys who are actually paying money to keep the site running go to jail, but the 4 million people who are actually pirating get nothing.

[WonderGirl]

Noooooo!!! First Mininova, then LimeWire, now TBP? ;__; Oh wait... TPB still works here :D But still, piracy is going to continue. Another site will come up and it's going to happen again and again, illegal or not.

[Rich Boy Rob]

LeSigh.
This is why we should elect the equivalent to the Swedish "Pirate Party".
It's only the big roller companies that back this sort of thing in the first place.

This pretty much sums up my point:
How piracy works.
[Everything in this post is purely my own personal opinion, and may not reflect the opinions of everyone working at Mojang Specifications!]

Large parts of the culture these days exists in a world where copies are free. Copying a physical book costs money, but copying a digital movie is free. In fact, simply moving a movie from one hard drive to another actually copies the movie first, then deletes the original. Copying games is also free. No resources are lost, nobody loses any money, and more people are having fun.

To people who want to get paid for their digital works, myself included, that is a bit of a problem. All of society and economics is based on an old outdated model where giving something to someone would rid the original owner of their copy, so everyone who wanted a copy had to buy one from someone else who would lose theirs, and the only source of new copies was you. There might be actual development costs involved in making these copies. For example, for every wheel in the market, someone had to make that wheel. With digital copies, you only need to make the wheel once.

I won’t bother analyzing why people copy games and other digital media, as that’s really a moot point. We’ve got an amazingly effective way of distributing culture that is extremely beneficial for humanity, but it clashes with our current economical models. Piracy will win in the long run. It has to. The alternative is too scary.

If someone pirates Minecraft instead of buying it, it means I’ve lost some “potential” revenue. Not actual revenue, as I can never go into debt by people pirating the game too much, but I might’ve made even more if that person had bought the game instead. But what if that person likes that game, talks about it to his or her friends, and then I manage to convince three of them to buy the game? I’d make three actual sales instead of blocking out the potentially missed sale of the original person which never cost me any money in the first case.

Instead of just relying on guilt tripping pirates into buying, or wasting time and money trying to stop them, I can offer online-only services that actually add to the game experience. Online level saving, centralized skins, friends lists and secure name verification for multiplayer. None of these features can be accessed by people with pirated versions of the game, and hopefully they can be features that turn pirates from thieves into potential customers.

Please don’t interpret this text as me being fine with people pirating Minecraft. I’d MUCH rather have people pay for it so I can reinvest in hiring people and developing more cool games in the future. It’s also quite possible that if I get into a business deal with a larger company, there might be a larger push towards fighting piracy mostly because they’d require it, and I understand why they’d want that.

But why fight the biggest revolution in information flow since the printing press when you could easily work with it by adding services that actually add some value beyond the free act of making a digital copy?

In other news, I’m voting for either Piratpartiet or Miljöpartiet in the Swedish elections on Sunday.

-Notch, Developer of Minecraft

[Vendak]

I think it's far more immoral to take away the rights and imprison two people that have done no harm to anybody, and their only "crime" is causing companies (that are already incredibly rich) to lose potential revenue. Why are they wasting time with people like this when there are real criminals out there? Oh right, it's because they pose a threat to the precious capitalist system.
I agree with Stratos and Rich Boy Bob.

The only reason they're doing this is to try and scare other people away from piracy. It won't work.

And don't let the law define your morals guys. If suddenly chocolate was made illegal, would you say that it's immoral to be eating chocolate? How can you put these guys on the same level as murderers, rapists, armed robbers and other real criminals?

I ""illegally"" download all of my movies and music simply because I don't have any money. If suddenly I was unable to download these things, it wouldn't make me go out and buy them instead, because I simply don't have the money. Whereas as I am able to download these things, it means I can check them out and then if I like them a lot I can spend the little money I do have on seeing a band live or supporting them in other ways. If I couldn't download anything in the first place then they would get nothing from me.

Sorry for not having thousands of pounds to give to rich media companies, guess that makes me an immoral criminal!

[Patchisou Yutohru]

As much as I really like this discussion, the topic itself relates to a website, so it belongs in Life, the Universe, and Everything.

[Team Fail]

LTUE it is! Patchisou Move!

I agree with Vendak. I do it to sample, because I don't want to spend money on things I don't like. Like games, for instance. Them going to jail is not going to stop piracy one bit. The site is still up, and there are also other torrent sites people can go to, that have almost all the same things, if not the exact same, as others do. Plus, there are also things on there that aren't illegal, like programs people made that they want to redistribute, and some song artists actually support torrenting of some of their albums, from a place I read long ago. I don't do it that often, but I don't really care, as it doesn't affect me in the long run.

[mondays suck]

Just nitpicking the article here, it doesn't seem to have been banned here in the UK. I can still load pages on it just fine.
Same here in Germany, I can access TPB without problems. Maybe that is going to change in the next few days though, I don't know. ... as if it wasn't already bad enough that half of Youtube is blocked here, the government is slowly but surely becoming as restrictive as the nazis or "communists" were. Except that this time not they are the manipulative bastards but these accursed corporations are. Even in the golden age of internet piracy, they still have been as fat and overprivileged as they have always been, so why should they do something? To get even more money? Hahaha, it's more like people would rather not buy anything, well that's at least my opinion. So what is these people's point, other than trolling society?

...this text makes no goddamn sense and what makes sense has probably already been mentioned, but whatever.

Also, my vote for the next elections (sadly it's still 3 years until then...) :

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSJkHVkawTIj1b1F3bZ3BHCqPsEDaFXxfgEQeN7VzEpxkgFxssM

[twocows]

A lot of people in this thread are misunderstanding the lawsuit. TPB doesn't host illegal content, it hosts what are essentially LINKS to illegal content. Torrent files are files that point to resources that are distributed on a peer-to-peer network. They aren't charging them with hosting illegal content, as far as I'm aware. They're charging them with aiding copyright infringement, which is a far more accurate charge.

Now their argument is that they shouldn't be responsible for what their users do. They argue that they're like Google in that they just host a service and that their users are breaking the law, much like Google doesn't break any laws by linking to an illegal MediaShare file or something. A few years ago, they would have had a better argument in saying that they didn't have the capacity to filter illegal content, but then they started doing just that to filter child pornography and kind of screwed themselves over.

The prosecution's argument, as far as I'm aware, is that unlike Google, they laugh in the face of copyright law every chance they get, and that they're fully aware that most users on their site use it for illegal purposes and they even help them do so without getting caught. Personally, I don't think it's their job to suck up to the copyright industry, but it doesn't cast them in a good light, and apparently that's all that's necessary.

[560cool.]

I hate stealing. I think my parents educated me properly. That's why I buy my music, games, videos and everything digital. I never used bitTorrent (even though I know a LOT of children and teens which do so, some which even offered to help me learn torrenting. I promptly refused) and never intend to.

Torrent sites will always exist. PirateBay gets shut down ? "np dudes and dudettes, got a new serva and a ton of bribe 1 :-D". You just can't hunt them down.

As for the 4 founders...I think they got what they deserved. Stealing is a crime, so I see no reason not to put them in jail.

Also, what about the users of PirateBay ? Didn't they commit crimes as well ?

[saul]

These guys need to be in jail. I'm sorry, but that's the cold truth.

The argument that I've been seeing online (and above) is that they're not hosting the illegal files, they're not putting them up. Essentially: they should not be responsible for what their users post. The fact is that they should be and are responsible for what their users post.

Did anybody learn anything from the Amazon fiasco a few weeks ago? Yes, yes, yes, they are absolutely responsible for what people post.

Furthermore, (all of that aside), the creators' intentions for the site are clearly to provide an outlet for people to download pirated content. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out. Pirated content. Pirate Bay.

And the argument that it just feeds to our capitalist society--that piracy doesn't hurt the big corps: it does. They lose loads. Not enough to kill them, but loads. And if you let this slide, then where do you draw the line?

[Stratos99]

You don't have to have morals, but that won't excuse you from justice.

I didn't say I don't have morals, but I don't find it morally wrong to download digital media illegally. If you would refer to the quote Rich Boy Bob posted you'll see my feelings on the matter.

Oh and I can still visit TPB as well, I think they're waiting on the ISP's to take charge at this point and all we can do is hope they don't follow suit.

[Vendak]

And the argument that it just feeds to our capitalist society--that piracy doesn't hurt the big corps: it does. They lose loads. Not enough to kill them, but loads. And if you let this slide, then where do you draw the line?
I didn't say that they don't lose revenue from it.

But am I really supposed to feel sorry for them? Why should decent people be branded as criminals just because they can't afford to pay for music, movies and video games? People have to spend their money on much more important things. As a result there's nothing spare and if you can't afford, you're not allowed entertainment, apparently. I don't feel guilty from downloading anything at all. Oh no, a company has lost out on gaining my money when they already have millions, how awful!

Remember they're losing potential revenue, not actual revenue. If I couldn't download, then I wouldn't buy. I'm sure a lot of other people who torrent illegally feel the same. So the amount of people who torrent can't be used to determine how much they're actually losing out by. And even if you did add that much, how much percentage are they actually losing? I bet it's nothing when compared to what they're already gaining.

If I borrowed a game from a friend for the weekend, completed it, and never bought the game, does that make me a criminal?
It's exactly the same thing. Except I am borrowing the game from a stranger on the internet. I don't sell the game, I don't make a profit from it, nobody is losing out, I just get a few hours of entertainment.

[leo33wii]

it's stupid really. i have to agree with stratos99 on this.
music is art... and when art is finished, it no longer belongs to the artists. art is made for the people and for them to interpret them.
i would know because i am an artist who paints. i get money well i sell it. but when people reproduce it, i have no beef when they sell it. i know that my stuff is going around and i can legally prove where it originated when someone tries to claim it as their own.

it's stupid really. i have to agree with stratos99 on this.
music is art... and when art is finished, it no longer belongs to the artists. art is made for the people and for them to interpret them.
i would know because i am an artist who paints. i get money well i sell it. but when people reproduce it, i have no beef when they sell it. i know that my stuff is going around and i can legally prove where it originated when someone tries to claim it as their own.

[iRyu]

I don't get why they went to jail. As twocows said, they are only links for the people to use the peer-to-peer network. If they went to jail, almost every website where you can download things should be banned too, like mediafire, megaupload, ffinsider and such considering they actually are distributing the files. Rather than making them go to jail AND pay 6.3 million, why not make them pay so that the money oculd be distributed among the ocmpanies that were involved, and make them shut the website down, it's not like they killed anyone. Or, make them make those who have use the pirate bay pay for the use of it, like other websites do?

[Shanghai Alice]

Oh noes. Not the Pirate Bay. I'm a bad person, and I will cease pirating immediately.

After all, torrenting the image song for Furude Hanyuu is equivalent to baby-eating, but not releasing it/charging a fortune for it because you can is perfectly moral.


Piracy is not theft, asshats. (No, that wasn't directed at anyone here. Please don't cry...)

I'm a capitalist, but...


EDIT: Wait, they're going to a Swedish jail? Can I take their place? I've heard that Scandinavian prisons are really... "horrible." :P

[txteclipse]

Why should decent people be branded as criminals just because they can't afford to pay for music, movies and video games? People have to spend their money on much more important things. As a result there's nothing spare and if you can't afford, you're not allowed entertainment, apparently.

This right here is my problem with all of this. You are not entitled to entertainment. If you want entertainment, you need to earn the money to pay for it. Alternatively, if you don't agree with how much money you have to pay, you need to try and change things, whether by boycotting products or whatever.

As for the whole record label thing, people complain about how big companies are swindling them all the time, but when it comes to getting your hands dirty and actually trying to make things better, everyone suddenly gets quiet. The reason? Stealing removes motivation. It makes you lazy. Why should you work for something when you can have it for free? But it's that attitude that caused these problems in the first place. People need to wake up and realize that things are going to stay the way they are (or get worse) unless someone takes it upon themselves to fix the source of the problem instead of working around it.

[iRyu]

This right here is my problem with all of this. You are not entitled to entertainment. If you want entertainment, you need to earn the money to pay for it. Alternatively, if you don't agree with how much money you have to pay, you need to try and change things, whether by boycotting products or whatever.


Have you ever been poor? Have you ever lived paycheck to paycheck? Yes we aren't entitled to entertainment, as you put it, but don't you think it's stupid to pay 40 dollars for game that will only last you for 8 hours? Don't you think it's stupid to pay $.99 or whatever they charge for a song? Don't you think it's ridiculous how that everything nowadays is done through money? How money can be traced down almost every argument?

It's people who are AGAINST your mindset that are willing to make sacrifices like the founders of The Pirate Bay did to make others happy by allowing them to save money and use their money to be able to pay so they can have lights on in their house or water running through their pipes. It's those people who make it so some people don't have to pay 20 dollars for a movie they'll watch once or pay money for an album they won't even like or pay for a videogame that isn't worth the money. Heck, Gamestop sells games for a price less than it was supposed to be because it's either used (not worth it's money), or it's not selling

[Shanghai Alice]

This right here is my problem with all of this. You are not entitled to entertainment. If you want entertainment, you need to earn the money to pay for it.

Books.

They have libraries.

Justify that, plz.

And, yes, you could say that's entitlement to information and literature, but... They also have music, and movies, and cassette tapes, so...

Err...

[Shadow Ball]

I have to say I'm one of the people who finds this ridiculous. The amount of money these multi-million dollar corporations lose is extremely insignificant and there are so many crimes out there that are far worse and need to be addressed way more than this. Yes, it is illegal, but I'll have to agree with some previous posters and say that I don't really find it immoral at all. I'm a person who likes to think I have my morals right, but the thought of people downloading a movie that could have potentially been bought with money that would go to a movie star who doesn't even know or care due to already being so rich doesn't make me want to seek any justice. They aren't losing anything, if someone doesn't have the money to buy something, they won't buy it - no matter if they can download it or not. Also, this isn't going to stop illegal downloading. The Internet is filled with it to the brim. New things will always pop up and people will find them. The Internet has the sheer power of number.

[txteclipse]

Yes we aren't entitled to entertainment, as you put it, but don't you think it's stupid to pay 40 dollars for game that will only last you for 8 hours? Don't you think it's stupid to pay $.99 or whatever they charge for a song?

If you think it's stupid, don't buy it. Simple. Or better yet, go organize a bunch of people and protest.

It's people who are AGAINST your mindset that are willing to make sacrifices like the founders of The Pirate Bay did to make others happy by allowing them to save money and use their money to be able to pay so they can have lights on in their house or water running through their pipes.

You seem to think that entertainment is somehow a requirement. People don't HAVE to play videogames, or watch movies, or whatever. The easiest way to save money is to forgo luxuries. That's simply how things work.

Books.

They have libraries.

Justify that, plz.

First off, you don't own the books you take from a library. If you hold onto one for too long, they make you buy a new one for the collection. Second, you can't copy the books either. It's still illegal. Third, libraries have permission to rent out their books. Just like movie stores. Except libraries are paid for by taxes instead of a rental fee, because of that whole "repository of knowledge" thing.

[Inkpuddle]

After all, torrenting the image song for Furude Hanyuu is equivalent to baby-eating, but not releasing it/charging a fortune for it because you can is perfectly moral.


Piracy is not theft, asshats. (No, that wasn't directed at anyone here. Please don't cry...)
Auu auu, hauu, hauu auu auu~
Epic nano desu aside, I agree. Piracy isn't theft because theft is the act of taking what isn't yours at the expense of the owner, and the vast majority of pirates only download what they wouldn't buy to begin with. In this case, there is no loss of money or property, so I don't see how anyone who has given the issue any thought can say that this is a matter of theft. Forgive me if I sound clueless or misguided (I don't know much about issues like these), but I'm just applying simple logic to what I already know. I wish everyone would do the same rather than agree with everything they're told.

[Captain Fabio]

I can't say I am shocked that they are going to prison.
However, what the government are doing, is making an example of them for the other sites.
Since the USA is clamping down on the internet piracy, it is going to get a lot harder for sites like PB.

[Ooka]

I pirate things all the time, although I also go to work, school, pay my bills, help people out whenever I can, etc. and I honestly feel I don't belong in jail. Thing is they don't even DO anything illegal, and now this. What's wrong with this world really? We don't even have room left for the real criminals like the rapists and murderers because of all the pot heads and pirates they put there. I'm all for these guys and what they do, and more power to them.

The funny thing is, they received cease and desist letters from some very big heads, and they still kept going. It's like they were challenging them almost. And yes they might lose the legal battle, but as for a battle of pride, they won already.

[560cool.]

Let me give you another example.
You walk into a music store and you are desperate to find a Pearl Jam's Ten Album. Yes, it's old, but you hate piracy and you love Pearl Jam and their music.

Sadly, those guys at the music store don't have any Pearl Jam records to give you. You sadly walk away home, thinking about what you should do... when pirating comes into your mind.

You pirate it, alright, But then, 10 years pass and your computer is lost ! You remember how much fun you had with that album ; why not pirate it again ?

Or, there's an alternative : decide to pay the artist for his work and go to another music store and check for the album. What if they have it...?

Sorry if this confuses anyone, I just wanted to show everyone how pirating can actually help you get something through money. It's true, I pirated Pokemon White... but just to see how it is. Now, in Spring 2011, I'll go ahead and buy myself a copy, thanks.

It's also like Notch said : if your friends see something cool that you pirated, then I suppose you could both agree on buying that... thing for yourself. Piracy + friends = money ?

[Katalyst]

This is one of the reasons why I love so much the fact that I haven't grown up with rich parents that gave me all I wanted without me needing to move a single muscle.
First of all, piracy is NOT stealing. As someone said before, it doesn't cause loss of the original content and if there's loss of money, it's really insignificant, specially for major companies.
And as someone said before too, why putting people in jail for making copies of content instead of looking for real criminals like rapists, murderers, the REAL stealers, etc?
You seem to think that entertainment is somehow a requirement. People don't HAVE to play videogames, or watch movies, or whatever. The easiest way to save money is to forgo luxuries. That's simply how things work.It is. Would you like to blankly look at your room's ceiling, dying with boredom, because you have nothing to do on your free time... because you don't have money to buy unnecessarily expensive sources of entertainment? Would you like it? Would you feel mentally okay with such boredom? None of you would like that, huh? Oh God, it's so damn effing easy to talk.

If you think entertainment is a luxury, if you think that making ourselves happy and out of blank dumb boredom is a luxury, then I sincerely feel sorry for you.

Alright. Back to the topic. As you probably have guessed already, I'm against this. Putting pirates in the same level as rapists and murderers is just plain ass dumb. A fine would be acceptable, as they seem to have broken a law, but that won't stop piracy at all. All it will do is make pirates more careful so they are not so easily detectable, in my opinion.

[iRyu]

If you think it's stupid, don't buy it. Simple. Or better yet, go organize a bunch of people and protest.
You seem to have an odd love for the get-together type of things with other people, first boycotts, now protesting groups... You seem to have misread my point. A person would STILL want the game even though they would have to pay a ridiculous amount for it, possibly sacrificing something for their family. They could do that or they could find another way to get it through pirating.

But in order to make this as on-topic as possible, that would be their fault so they should then go to jail. The founders of the Pirate Bay should not have. I can only slightly understand the jurisdiction but 10, 4, and 8 month sentences?



You seem to think that entertainment is somehow a requirement. People don't HAVE to play videogames, or watch movies, or whatever. The easiest way to save money is to forgo luxuries. That's simply how things work.

The easiest way to save money is to give up "luxuries" which you call video games, movies, and music? The easiest way to save money for your family and to continue to have stuff that you consider "luxuries" is by pirating, which many do. And on entertainment being "requirement," since it apparently it is not to you, I challenge you to go for a week without turning on your computer, iPod,Video Games, or anything, and see how much fun it is. You'll see how much you've "required" of entertainment to keep you moving and positive, as in not bored and fun to be around.

[DAWJ]

if there's loss of money, it's really insignificant, specially for major companies
Well, even if it is insignificant, it's still stealing money. And yes no matter how bored you are, entertainment is still not a requirement. If you're bored go to the library and read, or go outside and play a sport or something. Nevertheless, I am not condoning you. I don't see a problem with piracy because it is a great way to try out games, and/or music. I mean, I don't want to waste my money, trying out something new, on something I end up not liking. The reason why I never saw piracy as stealing is because, if I downloaded a game illegally, I am not claiming it as my own, or redistributing in it for money. In a sense it is just like burrowing, as someone said before.

[QuilavaKing]

It's not stealing money, because you would not have bought it in the first place.

[DAWJ]

It's not stealing money, because you would not have bought it in the first place.

The fact that you have something in your possession without buying it or getting permission from the creator is indeed stealing. A reason why I don't find piracy wrong is that sometimes it is in your best interest. Say your computer crashed, it is much more cheaper efficient to download a new windows, instead of going out and buying a new copy of windows(This only applies if you have access to another computer). Other than that, if you are going to illegal download something at least admit that it is stealing. I admit I am stealing and have done it a few times before. I refuse to make up a phony excuse to justify my actions.

[saul]

The fact that you have something in your possession without buying it or getting permission from the creator is indeed stealing. A reason why I don't find piracy wrong is that sometimes it is in your best interest. Say your computer crashed, it is much more cheaper efficient to download a new windows, instead of going out and buying a new copy of windows(This only applies if you have access to another computer). Other than that, if you are going to illegal download something at least admit that it is stealing. I admit I am stealing and have done it a few times before. I refuse to make up a phony excuse to justify my actions.

Thank you. At least someone fessing up to what it actually is: theft.

Some others have said that there is no property being stolen in the first place, so it isn't theft. Physically, yes nothing is being stolen. But you have to realize that it is still "property." This is done through copyright and usage laws. Someone said that it's art and that once it's completed "it's no longer theirs." Wrong again. Copyright laws apply here too. You as an artist are automatically legally entitled to your work (according to U.S. law, you don't have to formally copyright your work through registration--I know this because I've done work in the publishing business). You automatically own the copyright on your piece of work. If you choose to let your art be "free," saying that it belongs to everyone, then that is OK. But this decision comes from you. In order for that to hold true for another artist, that permission has to come from them as well. Sites like the Pirate Bay have not received the OK from the owners to distribute--or provide an outlet to--their property. And that translates to individuals who are downloading such files as well. You do not have permission to use it (using it as in listen, watch, etc.) until you pay for it. Just like in any old store. Unless you pay for it, you can't have or use it.

Yes, people, it's theft. Simple logic. No brainer here. In the case of things such as music, movies, video games, etc., if you don't pay for it, you don't have permission to have it/use it.

If you're poor, I'm sorry, you don't get any special privilege to bypass this rule. I don't even know where that idea stems from.

And before I go on: yes, I know what it's like to be poor. There was a time when my family struggled--and I don't wish to poor out details on the internet. Even now, (as I'm sure with many people due to the economic climate) money is running scarce for me. I have NO money for music, etc. THERE IS SO MUCH MUSIC THAT I WANT. And yes, the other day, I thought about downloading some. It's only a torrent or google search away. I decided not to because IT IS THEFT. So before I get told "It's so easy for you to say" like some of the others have been told, let me say that it is not. Likewise, someone else said something about how we just believe what we're being fed--I find that very offensive. What you're suggesting is that I don't have a mind of my own to question what I read and what I'm told--you don't even know who I am! I'm a journalist, and we're told to look at things with a critical eye (we're also told to be neutral, but I'm not writing an article right here ;)).

(And I realize most of these comments and the following were directed at txteclipse, but I agree with everything txteclipse has said).

I've gone a week without technology. I've gone a month without technology, social media, digital music, etc. I'm about to go two years without it. You can live without it. It's sad when society feels that they need MP3s, movies, video games and the like to be happy. You can go without it. And if you can't, then you need to reconsider your life. Yes, you are entitled to entertainment. You aren't entitled to digital media as entertainment. There are plenty of other forms of entertainment.

"But it's too expensive, the industry just wants our money--it's heartless. They're not losing a lot anyway."
Wrong. They lose LOADS. I mean LOADS. And yes, they actually LOSE MONEY through the potential value of their property. If you intend to sell a scarf you've made and someone steals it, you have lost the potential value of your scarf. And when that's your income, it means a lot. There is loss of money in the loss of income. Is it insignificant? Compared to how much they make, yes. But realize that piracy is growing and they continue to lose money. At the rate piracy is at now, they will eventually lose a significant amount and can even go out of business. That's why these companies feel that this must be addressed.

Now I agree with you that the music is too expensive and that they are just big, fat money eaters. That still doesn't mean you can steal from them. That's not how you prove a point. txteclipse was right in suggesting something like a protest. That's how you fight these things. They have the legal backing to do what they want. When you pirate music, you don't have any legal backing. But protesting, causing a ruckus: you have power--and it's legal. I don't want to pay $1.15 either, but I'm not going to steal. And again, if I don't expect the law to protect the rights of artists and businesses, why should I expect the same for me? If you blow them off because they're greedy capitalists, then where do you draw the line?

More onto the topic of The Pirate Bay,

NO BODY IS PUTTING THEM ON THE SAME LEVEL AS MURDERERS, RAPISTS and the like. Murderers and rapists get years, many cases life in prison. In some cases, they get the death penalty. These guys get 8-10 months. Really, people?

"We should be going after the TRUE criminals--the murders and rapists."
WHO SAYS THAT WE'VE STOPPED GOING AFTER THEM? I doubt that all law enforcement in the U.S. and Sweden have just stopped working to focus on this case. Something tells me that they're still going after the true criminals.

"Well the media is focusing too much on these guys and less on the true criminals."
Yes. The press does that. The press decides what it will cover based on these factors: Time, proximity, unusualness, impact, prominence. The Pirate Bay is prominent. It impacts a lot of people because a lot of people download illegally. It's news. I know this sounds terrible, but the little old lady getting killed down the street isn't as huge of news as this is.

"This won't stop piracy."
No duh. I don't think anyone thinks that it will. One pirating site out of a million down--woohoo! But, honestly, they have to start somewhere if they're going to tackle this issue at all. Piracy will exist forever. So will murderers--so should we just ignore them too?

Hopefully I've made my point that piracy is illegal? And hopefully you can see how the admins of the site are responsible? Yes, they deserve jail time. TPB is clearly an outlet for piracy, anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. The name suggests it. The admins became responsible for this illegal activity when they chose to sponsor it and not act against it.

[Pachy]

You couldn't be more incorrect saul. All of your points are null and void.

You cannot consider theoretical income as yours!
That is what the basis of the "Piracy is Illegal" argument is. Theoretical income.
Money they have NOT EARNED. A SALE THAT HAS NOT OCCURRED AND MAY HAVE NEVER OCCURRED!

Why do people download? Because they won't pay the insane prices of media these days. It's far too high...and you end up feeling very RIPPED OFF when you get something you end up not liking. Because of this, these companies have NO LEGAL GROUND WHATSOEVER TO PURSUE ACTION AGAINST THESE SO CALLED 'PIRATES'

A typical person does not go out and burn 5000 CDs and sell them on the black market, therefore it's the people on the black market you should be targeting, not your own potentially paying customers! Customers who would, after downloading and liking something, may end up BUYING that NEW CD by THAT ARTIST.

Copyright is there to prevent others from PROFITING FROM a work. If the person draws NO PROFIT from the transaction, they are not undercutting the companies!

All who have been brainwashed into thinking that downloading a song, or a movie, or a TV show for that matter is stealing, are quite foolish and naive. The crime lies in the profiteering that these companies partake in. This profiteering lies not within the prices of the goods in question. It lies in the money they are attempting to milk out of these so called 'thieves'. It lies in the very draconian DRM they attempt to deploy on digital music and video, which essentially rips off even the most honest customer by denying their right to be entertained after some point in time, by denying them their right to transfer media for their own personal use to a medium in which the company REFUSES to support, or sell media for.

We as consumers have EVERY DAMN RIGHT to refuse to patronize companies practicing such abuses of our rights! What's worse is that these torrent sites are innocent as ever. They are merely a service host. They ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT USERS POST! It is not their job or obligation to enforce copyright law, it is the obligation of the government, the courts and law enforcement agencies!

It's funny. These companies go about trying to get laws passed and such, and they're only alienating the consumers even more. The consumers who would have bought that new CD, upon finding out that it's the same company that has the attitude that EVERY CUSTOMER IS A POTENTIAL THIEF will decide they do not wish to do business with that company any longer. And it is within that consumer's rights then, to go online and download that CD online. THEY DESERVE THE PUNISHMENT! THEY DESERVE EVERY LOST CENT! THEY HAVE OVERSTEPPED THE BOUNDS OF COPYRIGHT LAW BY ABUSING IT AND PUSHING IT TO BE UNNECESSARILY EXPANDED! THIS WAS NOT THE INTENT THAT OUR FOREFATHERS HAD WHEN THEY IMPLEMENTED PATENTS AND COPYRIGHT LAWS!

End of rant. End of subject.

[Vendak]

Yes, people, it's theft. Simple logic. No brainer here. In the case of things such as music, movies, video games, etc., if you don't pay for it, you don't have permission to have it/use it.

See my earlier example.

If I borrowed a game from a friend for the weekend, completed it, and never bought the game, does that make me a criminal?
It's exactly the same thing. Except I am borrowing the game from a stranger on the internet. I don't sell the game, I don't make a profit from it, nobody is losing out, I just get a few hours of entertainment.

Once someone has bought something it is their possession, not the companies, not the creator of the game/movie/whatever. The people who buy it then upload it to places like TPB and they are sharing their own possession with other people.

If I bought a DVD, and I invite 10 people over to watch it, are we all criminals? According to ~the law~ we are, and that is just ridiculous.

WHO SAYS THAT WE'VE STOPPED GOING AFTER THEM? (real criminals)
Nobody said that. But there are plenty of cases where real criminals walk free because of ""lack of evidence"" whereas these guys will no doubt get a lot of effort put into bringing them down. Hell, the establishment has been trying to bring this guys down for ages, imagine how much time and effort is wasted. Real crime doesn't stop; the complaint is that they're wasting time and effort when there's plenty of people that are worse out there.

[Ooka]

"This won't stop piracy."
No duh. I don't think anyone thinks that it will. One pirating site out of a million down--woohoo! But, honestly, they have to start somewhere if they're going to tackle this issue at all. Piracy will exist forever. So will murderers--so should we just ignore them too?



I didn't read the massive wall of text, but I caught this part. How can you possibly put murderers in the same class as someone that downloads something on their computer? MURDERERS are the ones that should be in jail (And are, while there's still room, so don't get me wrong) for committing crimes, not nerds downloading the latest version of Photoshop (While Adobe is still making millions). Seriously, people think this is a crime that should be punishable by jail or even prison time? No. I can agree with a fine (Equal to the amount of software you personally downloaded) but if you're just hosting a site that users can freely post links on, how can you be held responsible for all of it, especially seeing as none of the content is hosted on the site you own. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG IN JAIL. Period(.)

[Archer]

I didn't read the massive wall of text, but I caught this part. How can you possibly put murderers in the same class as someone that downloads something on their computer? MURDERERS are the ones that should be in jail (And are, while there's still room, so don't get me wrong) for committing crimes, not nerds downloading the latest version of Photoshop (While Adobe is still making millions). Seriously, people think this is a crime that should be punishable by jail or even prison time? No. I can agree with a fine (Equal to the amount of software you personally downloaded) but if you're just hosting a site that users can freely post links on, how can you be held responsible for all of it, especially seeing as none of the content is hosted on the site you own. THESE PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG IN JAIL. Period(.)

Sure, I don't agree with them being put in the same category as other criminals, or even that they should be facing what they are - but here's the thing: they need to be made an example of. The site is eventually going to go down, which is one side of things - sure, people are going to find another way, but if it's harder to pirate content, a certain (maybe small) number of people are going to buy it instead. The other side of things involves discouraging the users involved. This includes both the file uploaders and downloaders.

We all do it here and there, but the fact is that prices should drop if there are more buyers.

In other words, I don't agree with harsh, straight-up punishments for people involved, but how can I say it? They had it coming. They got off a few times and then went on to brag about it and keep the site up. They know EXACTLY what the site was being used for, even naming it as such, so they're COMPLETELY responsible for the illegal content on there.

[Ooka]

they need to be made an example of.

I disagree with this. No one should ever be made an example of, especially when it comes to something big like this. Rules should be rules, and the people enforcing them should do just that (I'm saying that it shouldn't be against the rules in the first place). No one should be specifically targeted or chased after to be "made an example" of what will happen to others. Yes they may have been cocky about getting away with it before, but heck, I disagree with the law as well, so if I managed to scrape by not getting in trouble, I'd be bragging as well, and still keep my hard worked site live.

I'm not trying to compare them to murderers here, but if it might help I'll make an example.

If a murderer were to have a website that discussed murderers, and murderers were to join and upload pictures of people they'd killed, even if the person who ran the site knew they were there, should the owner then be arrested when the police find out that the members have done this, instead of the actual members (The murderers) getting in trouble? I mean, yes, it's a completely different crime and much more serious, but it's basically the same thing, they haven't committed any crime directly, and if there's a loophole in the law (Which there obviously is) I don't think they should chase after TPB specifically for this.

[DAWJ]

If a murderer were to have a website that discussed murderers, and murderers were to join and upload pictures of people they'd killed, even if the person who ran the site knew they were there, should the owner then be arrested when the police find out that the members have done this, instead of the actual members (The murderers) getting in trouble? I mean, yes, it's a completely different crime and much more serious, but it's basically the same thing, they haven't committed any crime directly, and if there's a loophole in the law (Which there obviously is) I don't think they should chase after TPB specifically for this.

Actually they would be arrested, because they knew who commited the crimes and did not report it. You would probably be charged as an acomplice. Well at least in the US I dont know about elsewhere.

[Ooka]

Actually they would be arrested, because they knew who commited the crimes and did not report it. You would probably be charged as an acomplice. Well at least in the US I dont know about elsewhere.

But morally is that right? A person that has never murdered anyone getting in trouble all because of who there members are? Same goes for TPB, I just personally feel it isn't right at all that they're getting charged with the crimes that countless others are the ones committing (And it shouldn't even be a crime at that imo) while the officials think they'll make any difference at all.


You know what will happen after they arrest the owners? Everyone that had content posted there will simply take it to another website and upload it. THE OWNERS AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG LEGALLY, AND QUITE FRANKLY, STOPPING THEM STOPS NOTHING.

:/

[AdvancedK47]

Too much debate! TOO MUCH DEBATE! ;_;


Umm... well. As for the topic itself, I have nothing more to say other than this is a pretty big milestone for the fight against piracy.

But I sure think the fine is a tad hefty for merely supporting the acts of copyright infringment. I mean, 4 million dollars? That's what should be charged of the people who actually did the pirating >__>

[DAWJ]

Yeah the people that pirated should be charged, but that would be to much people to track down, and it would cost a lot. And to Ooka. Is it morally correct that a person watches an illegal activity carry out, and just let it slide. Let's say you are getting beat up, is it morally right if I stand their and watch you and don't do anything.Mind you, I am not harming you in any way. Now lets bring this back to TPB. Is it right for them to allow piracy, which is illegal, to carry out on their site, and let it slide, Without any warnings or punishment for those that commit this crime?

[Ooka]

Yeah the people that pirated should be charged, but that would be to much people to track down, and it would cost a lot. And to Ooka. Is it morally correct that a person watches an illegal activity carry out, and just let it slide. Let's say you are getting beat up, is it morally right if I stand their and watch you and don't do anything.Mind you, I am not harming you in any way. Now lets bring this back to TPB. Is it right for them to allow piracy, which is illegal, to carry out on their site, and let it slide, Without any warnings or punishment for those that commit this crime?

No it isn't morally correct to watch someone get beaten up. And in that case, either way you have a bad option, don't fight, or fight and get arrested. I feel that the owners of TPB are doing just that, the morally correct thing. Fighting against this, not giving up, and getting in trouble.


As for the second part of your statement, if you haven't noticed, the ones that actually committed the crime aren't receiving any warning or punishment.

[♠Dawn Rayne♠]

Piracy will live forever.. I mean I get all of my media from my friends at some wrestling forum they just use sites like Megaupload. Rapidshare, and Mediafire. I gave up those boring old torrent sites ages ago..

[Archer]

But morally is that right? A person that has never murdered anyone getting in trouble all because of who there members are?
Yes, but the comparison is actually milder. The TPB founders are hosting a site with the SOLE PURPOSE of making it easier to transmit pirated content. If said murder site taught people to kill and gave them tasks, I can imagine they would be shut down and arrested as well.

You know what will happen after they arrest the owners? Everyone that had content posted there will simply take it to another website and upload it. THE OWNERS AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG LEGALLY, AND QUITE FRANKLY, STOPPING THEM STOPS NOTHING.

Not exactly, a certain number of people will not be able to find the alternative quickly. I bet iTunes has benefited from the death of Limewire. Now if only they'd support Paypal in Aus, they'd be even better off.

Besides, making things harder or interrupting pirates can only be a good thing. But of course, if they start prosecuting the seeders and leechers, downloads will plummet, because the general public will be scared.

Look, if people brag for getting out of a crime they committed, they're stupid enough to bring it upon themselves. You barely get off going to jail because your site gets shut down? The obvious thing to do would be to shut the site down and get another job. I mean, unless they're making a huge income from ads, then they aren't doing themselves any favours, aside from stroking their egos. Nor are they doing society as a whole any favours. They were stupid and arrogant and paid the price. Simple.

[DAWJ]

No it isn't morally correct to watch someone get beaten up. And in that case, either way you have a bad option, don't fight, or fight and get arrested. I feel that the owners of TPB are doing just that, the morally correct thing. Fighting against this, not giving up, and getting in trouble.


As for the second part of your statement, if you haven't noticed, the ones that actually committed the crime aren't receiving any warning or punishment.

For the first of your statement I agree with you. I am not saying that their sentence is right. They should lessen the punishment. Personally I think if you disagree with something then, by all means protest. I mean like you said, if someone jumps in and helps you I do feel it is wrong if they get arrested. For one I think the US has a problem for punishing anyone for any reason(I am talking about suing for anything). Anyway that's a whole different argument. Where I disagree with you is that, Them and the members are both morally incorrect. For the fact that they let it happen, without any repercussions to their users and the users are morally incorrect for committing Piracy. I do it, and I admit what I am doing is immoral. Although, one could perceive morals in different ways. Which is where this whole debate comes from. We are not going to change each others minds, because what we percieve wrong and right is different. For example, I don't think many people who are called evil, are indeed evil. It's just that what they believe is good might be different from what someone else sees as good.

[♠Dawn Rayne♠]

In the end, nothing is going to change... its meaningless for them to make such petty attempts to stop it. There is always going to be a Frostwire, @ssclown Wire, or something along those lines.. so in the end their battle to stop this is just all for not.

[Ooka]

I just want to get my point out there. Yes, by law there is right and wrong, but people should learn to look through that and see what is truly right and wrong. Obviously DAWJ, you can do that, and I appreciate it.

Final Statement:
Yes, they may have showed their ass' because they got away, but that doesn't mean they deserve any of this. They worked hard on their site, and for example if my own site were breaking some rule that wouldn't be fixable without taking it down, I certainly wouldn't. The law is making a mistake by doing this, as it won't fix anything. Piracy will always exist (As it always has), and arresting these people will most likely only spark inspiration in more people that want to fight the power to begin their own. I personally use sites that are much better than TPB like Bitsoup, and yet they aren't getting taken down with even more content than TPB could muster. It's just the publicity TPB received that has caused them to be targeted, and it's just not right at all.

[DAWJ]

I just want to get my point out there. Yes, by law there is right and wrong, but people should learn to look through that and see what is truly right and wrong. Obviously DAWJ, you can do that, and I appreciate it.

Final Statement:
Yes, they may have showed their ass' because they got away, but that doesn't mean they deserve any of this. They worked hard on their site, and for example if my own site were breaking some rule that wouldn't be fixable without taking it down, I certainly wouldn't. The law is making a mistake by doing this, as it won't fix anything. Piracy will always exist (As it always has), and arresting these people will most likely only spark inspiration in more people that want to fight the power to begin their own. I personally use sites that are much better than TPB like Bitsoup, and yet they aren't getting taken down with even more content than TPB could muster. It's just the publicity TPB received that has caused them to be targeted, and it's just not right at all.

I actually completely agree with you. The law is Interpreted, not definite.
Also I feel that government should not watch over the internet. That's why I don't find so called "Cyber-Bullies" guilty because if you kill yourself, that is ultimately your decision. Once again a different argument. Anyway what I am saying is that if you commit Piracy,even if your doing it to protest, know it is illegal and don't try to cover it up. As a side note, I would love if someone would arrange an International Piracy day, where everyone downloads something illegal and admit to it. That way we fess up what we do, but show that we don't care and disagree with certain laws. Maybe then they would start listening to people and here what many people have to say.

[Archer]

It's just the publicity TPB received that has caused them to be targeted, and it's just not right at all.
But it's the popularity of Piratebay that is causing people to torrent. If it didn't exist there would be a whole lot less in the way of people pirating.

Also I feel that government should not watch over the internet. That's why I don't find so called "Cyber-Bullies" guilty because if you kill yourself, that is ultimately your decision. Once again a different argument. Anyway what I am saying is that if you commit Piracy,even if your doing it to protest, know it is illegal and don't try to cover it up. As a side note, I would love if someone would arrange an International Piracy day, where everyone downloads something illegal and admit to it. That way we fess up what we do, but show that we don't care and disagree with certain laws. Maybe then they would start listening to people and here what many people have to say.
I think you're not quite on Eric's wavelength, here. He's suggesting that they don't deserve what they have been found guilty of. You're saying that piracy is a good thing and that we should have it legalised. That's stupid and it will kill both the music and software industry.

[DAWJ]

But it's the popularity of Piratebay that is causing people to torrent. If it didn't exist there would be a whole lot less in the way of people pirating.

I think you're not quite on Eric's wavelength, here. He's suggesting that they don't deserve what they have been found guilty of. You're saying that piracy is a good thing and that we should have it legalised. That's stupid and it will kill both the music and software industry.

No I'm saying if your going to commit piracy, at least admit the fact that your committing illegal activity. And I never said I wanted it legalized. I said people who feel that the law is wrong should organize some type of protest but know, as of now, that what you are doing is illegal. And btw the music industry is already messed up. Recording companies get more of the profits than the actual musicians themselves. A lot more.

[Shanghai Alice]

A little late, yes, but...

If you think it's stupid, don't buy it. Simple. Or better yet, go organize a bunch of people and protest.
And that's exactly what the Pirate Party is doing.


You seem to think that entertainment is somehow a requirement. People don't HAVE to play videogames, or watch movies, or whatever. The easiest way to save money is to forgo luxuries. That's simply how things work.
Wartime economy?

Personally, the "Guns and Butter" argument* shouldn't apply to daily life. Education, music, television... All of those are, technically, luxuries. You don't need to be literate to survive. Cultural exposure is not a basic human necessity.

And yet... Why is the government so intent on educating the youth, and exposing them to cultural things? Why are sports given a special spot in the newspaper? Entertainment practically is a right, now. Be it from sports, a good book, music...

Like I said, "Guns and Butter" is a really bad argument for anything but a wartime economy.

And no, foreign wars don't count. -_-



First off, you don't own the books you take from a library. If you hold onto one for too long, they make you buy a new one for the collection.
*Catches ball out of left field*

And what does ownership have to do with it? With the rise of technology, "owning" an item is starting to mean less and less.


Second, you can't copy the books either. It's still illegal.
This had nothing to do with piracy, actually. You stated that entertainment was not a right, and I countered with the Library Argument. In my opinion, if access to books, DVDs, and cassettes in the library is a borderline-to-complete right, then why are video games and movies that the library doesn't stock any different?

Your argument is equivalent to saying that libraries should charge, because books are not a right.

Yes, they do charge late fees. That's not what I mean. :/


Third, libraries have permission to rent out their books. Just like movie stores. Except libraries are paid for by taxes instead of a rental fee, because of that whole "repository of knowledge" thing.
Ah, taxes. Okay, so you've corrected me before I'm even done posting.

Libraries aren't a right, they're a privilege earned through taxes. Or, at least, IMHO. Not saying they should be reserved only for taxpayers, but...

Anyway, back to responding to your point.

What gives libraries that magical, special permission to rent out their books? Is it because they are a government entity?

No, it is because, even before they were a public service, libraries were little more than a collection of books brought and paid for by one or more people.

Therefore, because the books were brought and paid for, the library has the right to lend them to whomever they please, right?

So, if I buy a game, and I want to lend it to my friend, that's legal. And, of course, it is.

I'm going to cop out, and use the argument of "Piracy is simply sharing with your friends, on a much, much, much larger scale."

Of course, I'm not saying that I only pirate. I like getting booklets, discs, and cases. I like the physical things, and that's what keeps the market alive. I like buying the games IRL, because the company has given me enough incentive to purchase the game for myself, rather than keep mooching off of a friend.

This strengthened attack on piracy doesn't stem from the fact that it is a new and rampant problem. It stems from the fact that companies simply have nothing to give that would make gamers want to buy the game for themselves. As Notch said, he counters this by actually motivating his players to pay.

...yes, I've rambled a little bit. My point is that, first of all, Notch is right. Second of all, entertainment, movies, and music are on the level of literature. The only argument for the contrary is that literature has been around longer, and, so, it is more mystical. Or something.

Third, companies need to step it up. Some of them realize this, and include stuff in the Special Editions. The ones that don't quickly call the FBI.

...so, yeah.


Oh, and consider this:

DRM is killing video games, and digital distribution is killing the Buy n' Trade industry.

Oh, Kanako. How evil. Think of all the revenue that GameStop is losing, because of the same companies who whine over lost imaginary funds.





*"Guns and Butter" - Yes, I know this means "Choosing between defense and civilian spending." However, I'm using it to mean "Necessities and luxuries." So, yes, it still fits.

[Archer]

And btw the music industry is already messed up. Recording companies get more of the profits than the actual musicians themselves. A lot more.
There's a very good reason for that. How many people do you think are involved in making an album? The artist(s) and producer and maybe a few other guys? No. A huge number of people are required to be employed. You think about it. They employ people to clean, advertise, everything. There might be over 100 employees that play some part in putting together the album, even if they don't even see the tracks. It's only fair that the company takes more of the profits - they have more than just a few people to pay.

[DAWJ]

There's a very good reason for that. How many people do you think are involved in making an album? The artist(s) and producer and maybe a few other guys? No. A huge number of people are required to be employed. You think about it. They employ people to clean, advertise, everything. There might be over 100 employees that play some part in putting together the album, even if they don't even see the tracks. It's only fair that the company takes more of the profits - they have more than just a few people to pay.

True, I guess I never looked at it from that point. Although I still think musicians should get more, because without them there would be no album to record, which means less money. But you did point out a fact that I never thought about before, so thank you I guesshttp://www.pokecommunity.com/images/icons/icon7.gif.