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King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 09:30 PM
I was just wondering why there is no staff change thread, that updates with staff changes, seeing as I have seen various members get promoted and demoted/on leave. I think there should be a thread that lists all the staff changes, and forum changes when they happen. Buuut if there is already a thread for this, can someone point me to it please XD

Regards, KG.

Melody
December 17th, 2010, 09:33 PM
If you'll watch the Celebrations forum you see people getting modded. DLOAs/LOAs aren't announced because they feel they don't have to. It's annoying but it's not something to get too upset about...most of them tend to announce major leaves on their own blogs anyway...just stop and listen eh?

Forever
December 17th, 2010, 09:34 PM
Well, it was discussed here and rejected, so changes are pretty low (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=236121).

Just hope the person involved would be willing to answer you, I guess.

Mr. Downstairs
December 17th, 2010, 09:39 PM
I support this idea, but it was decided against by a majority of higher staff.

King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Hmm I guess. I do normally visit the celebration thread for promotions, but I think there should be a sticky thread on the community announcements, as the whole of PC should be able to observe changes around the site, instead of having to access blogs and other sections of PC to know about staff and forum changes.

And even it is very uncommon for changes, it wont hurt to create just one thread for it :3

Team Fail
December 17th, 2010, 09:42 PM
I support this idea, but it was decided against by a majority of higher staff.

I see someone thinks like me. I'd like it too, as it seems some mods just vanish into thin air. Like Chibi-Chan for instance.

Mr. Downstairs
December 17th, 2010, 09:44 PM
Some mods prefer it that way.

King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 09:47 PM
You dont need to tell the reasons why they are on leave if the thread is created.

Just somethng like what Serebii does,

DEMOTED:
[/name]


No reason at all, just you name there. I mean eventually people will figure out that you are on leave, so it wont hurt to have their name there.

Mr. Downstairs
December 17th, 2010, 09:52 PM
That's how it was suggested. Quotes below from the original thread in CQ&F and the outcome for those who don't feel like reading the whole thread to:

"<username> is on a DLoA until <date>."
"<username> is no longer on the staff."

It doesn't have to be so straight forward. Doesn't have to be "<username> was <removed/resigned/suspended> from the staff <because...> <until...>."

Besides, it doesn't really take a genius to figure out staff member + no staff color = not a staff member. Most people assume someone's no longer on the staff as it is if they aren't in their color anymore and it really doesn't take that long to notice, like AdvancedK47 said. Obviously the reason that they're no longer on the staff is not going to be released to anyone. It's not even really released to moderators, or whatever rank the member was a part of. A moderator won't know why another moderator was removed, an s-mod won't know why another s-mod is removed, etc. because it's taken to a forum higher than their own and discussed there (unless you're an SA, where it's discussed infront of you).

Well, it has been discussed, and a majority of the higher staff agreed that something like this is unnecessary. If one wishes to know if and why a member is still on staff or not, they can do so by VMing or PMing that person. They are then free to tell you why they may not be on staff anymore and if they are coming back. Otherwise, business like this is left for the higher staff to be concerned with.

It was a good idea, but it just wasn't favored. :\

bobandbill
December 17th, 2010, 09:52 PM
I also agreed it ought to happen, but considering such points above have already been mentioned and the HS already recently voted on it and decided not to go for it with such things in mind... =/

King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 09:57 PM
:(
"higher staff agreed that something like this is unnecessary".

But I really dont see how some higher up staff thought it would be unnecessary... It is very necessary, to be kept in the loop and know who is in charge of what areas etc. I mean it is just one little thread, that can keep the whole of PC informed of what is happening.

Mr. Downstairs
December 17th, 2010, 10:24 PM
Because traditionally, moderator management should only be a concern to higher staff.

Melody
December 17th, 2010, 10:32 PM
Regardless of whether or not it's our concern, members still deserve the transparency. I feel this should be tabled and re-opened/voted on at a later date.

I think it's harmless to post who is coming and going on/off staff so we know immediately where to look to if we have a question...especially if we were looking specifically for someone in the chain of command because it's an issue for higher ranks.

I agree that it's just fine to omit the WHY. Just Who came/left and who we should ask if we have a question about that forum.

Arcanine
December 17th, 2010, 11:21 PM
What I wouldn't mind is the PC twitter make a tweet everytime someone gets promoted. That way the people following PC will get info via Twitter and if they want can say congrats in the celebrations thread.

As for demotions... they might be taking some time off, they might be demoted. But that's between them and the rest of the Staff. If they want to share why they're taking some time off then they can do so, but it'll be up to them and not us.

Bay Alexison
December 17th, 2010, 11:25 PM
Hm, back when this was discussed, I was under the impression it was going to be greeted with support by the higher staff, and I'm kinda surprised it isn't.

I can understand moderator management should be a concern to higher staff as far as promoting/demoting/etc. is concern, but I too don't think it's bad to have a thread to just list who came and go. But yeah, it would be nice if this came around, but if the majority of the higher staff voted no on it, then that's the final decision.

EDIT (cause Arcanine posted before me, lol):

What I wouldn't mind is the PC twitter make a tweet everytime someone gets promoted. That way the people following PC will get info via Twitter and if they want can say congrats in the celebrations thread.

As for demotions... they might be taking some time off, they might be demoted. But that's between them and the rest of the Staff. If they want to share why they're taking some time off then they can do so, but it'll be up to them and not us.
Hm, not exactly sure about that. There are a lot of people following other users of Twitter, and the announcement of someone promoted might be missed.

King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 11:26 PM
What I wouldn't mind is the PC twitter make a tweet everytime someone gets promoted. That way the people following PC will get info via Twitter and if they want can say congrats in the celebrations thread.

As for demotions... they might be taking some time off, they might be demoted. But that's between them and the rest of the Staff. If they want to share why they're taking some time off then they can do so, but it'll be up to them and not us.

That Twitter idea sounds good, I just need to make a Twitter XD

But users will find out eventually that they are demoted/leave, so putting them in a thread, leaving out reasons why will just make things easier.

Arcanine
December 17th, 2010, 11:32 PM
If people have a question about a forum/thread how many of them people know the ID number of said Mod? If you're like most people then you'll go to their forum and go to the bottom where their name is, check a post from them, or check the Forum Leaders page. If they aren't a Mod then their name doesn't show up on the Forum Leaders page or at the bottom of the forum. And if you're checking a post, VM, etc then you'll see that their name is no longer bold blue. So making a list and leaving out the reasons would be pointless, because who would check that list everytime they have a question for that Mod?

Alternative
December 17th, 2010, 11:35 PM
From what other people have said, maybe they don't want it announced that they are leaving for personal reason, and maybe want to keep it to a blog or a close group of friends.

Although I do like the idea of promotions on Twitter. It'd be an easy way to know who get's promoted and when they do as well.

Regeneration
December 17th, 2010, 11:37 PM
If people have a question about a forum/thread how many of them people know the ID number of said Mod? If you're like most people then you'll go to their forum and go to the bottom where their name is, check a post from them, or check the Forum Leaders page. If they aren't a Mod then their name doesn't show up on the Forum Leaders page or at the bottom of the forum. And if you're checking a post, VM, etc then you'll see that their name is no longer bold blue. So making a list and leaving out the reasons would be pointless, because who would check that list everytime they have a question for that Mod?


But how would we differentiate between a staff member who has been demoted and one who is on Dloa?

King Gumball
December 17th, 2010, 11:38 PM
If people have a question about a forum/thread how many of them people know the ID number of said Mod? If you're like most people then you'll go to their forum and go to the bottom where their name is, check a post from them, or check the Forum Leaders page. If they aren't a Mod then their name doesn't show up on the Forum Leaders page or at the bottom of the forum. And if you're checking a post, VM, etc then you'll see that their name is no longer bold blue. So making a list and leaving out the reasons would be pointless, because who would check that list everytime they have a question for that Mod?

I see your point, but it isn't only a matter of asking mods questions, it is just knowing what shuffling is happening with the staff in the first place. It just makes users feel in the loop and and what is happening with the staff. We should also be informed if a Mod is changing to moderate a different section around the forum.

edit: It is like if a teacher is new to the school, they will be introduced, or if a teacher leaves, it will be announced, maybe at an assembly or newsletter. The fact is they inform the students of what is happening with the staff. Same should apply here.

Arcanine
December 18th, 2010, 12:05 AM
@Arcanine: But how would we differentiate between a staff member who has been demoted and one who is on Dloa? You don't. From a member's stand point I know how you guys would wonder and all of that. But if a forum doesn't have a Mod then all you can do is PM an S-Mod or higher. Because if that person was demoted then... well they've been removed from the Staff. If they're on DLoA then they might just be wanting to get away from PC or Staff work (because sometimes it takes a lot of someone).

I see your point, but it isn't only a matter of asking mods questions, it is just knowing what shuffling is happening with the staff in the first place. It just makes users feel in the loop and and what is happening with the staff.

edit: It is like if a teacher is new to the school, they will be introduced, or if a teacher leaves, it will be announced, maybe at an assembly or newsletter. The fact is they inform the students of what is happening with the staff. Same should apply here.You can always ask the person about it. If they want to talk about it then they'll do so, if they don't then that's their choice.
As for the out of the loop thing... That's just the way things are. There's lots of stuff on PC that goes on and the members doesn't know anything about it until the changes are made. Forums, rules, events, etc. People taking time off or leaving are just one of them things, it might affect the members in the forum but it's up to the person if they want to talk about it or not. Some don't want to make a big deal about them leaving, they just want to slowly fade away.

If you go to the forum enough you'll know the Mod is gone. You don't need some thread to say "Such and such left the Staff". And if you don't go to the forum all that much (or don't go there at all) then chances are you really don't care if the person is no longer a Mod. So in both cases the thread is not needed.

bobandbill
December 18th, 2010, 12:28 AM
I disagree with the twitter thing as I don't think _that_ many people use it and if you're going to announce something in some way it might as well be here on the forums rather than via an external site only a percentage of people use. =/
If you go to the forum enough you'll know the Mod is gone. You don't need some thread to say "Such and such left the Staff". And if you don't go to the forum all that much (or don't go there at all) then chances are you really don't care if the person is no longer a Mod. So in both cases the thread is not needed. I would agree that it isn't needed, but I still feel it would help keep the community informed and up-to-date, and would be still helpful in itself. *shrugs*

But as said this was already voted upon recently, so...

Eliminator Jr.
December 18th, 2010, 02:40 AM
I'm all for a thread, even if it's just a simple update: XX is now moderator of the XX forum, or something. It's not really necessary, but it's interesting to look at and I don't think it would take much effort to run. However I know the higher staff voted against it so chances are it won't be happening.

Ausaudriel
December 18th, 2010, 02:42 AM
I basically agree with everything Arcanine posted. Who personally to contact isn't a concern, there's always someone to talk to about a forum issue (if not a mod then an s-mod) so you don't have to know if a specific mod is on leave or if they were demoted or whatever. :/ Forum leaders page exists for a reason.

Regardless of whether or not it's our concern, members still deserve the transparency. I feel this should be tabled and re-opened/voted on at a later date..
Deserve the transparency? o_O; It isn't anyone's right to know anything on the forums, and PC even has a tradition of keeping modding and staffing issues very under-wraps, which you know very well so it shouldn't be too surprising that we're not too keen on this idea. Heck not even mods know when people are being promoted or demoted, most forums I've been on except PC involve them in it in some way.

It just seems superfluous to me and we've got enough of that as it is. XD;

angel
December 18th, 2010, 03:46 AM
The staff have a right to their own privacy. If they want people to know that they are on leave/DLOA then they will tell people about it. But it isn't fair to deprieve the staffs rights of privacy just because the members want to know whats happening. Yes, members have the right to know what's happening in the ranks of the staff but as it was pointed out earlier you can easily find who is DLOA or demoted just by looking at the person's username. The color will be different, so adding a thread for this will just be more clutter onto an already cluttered surver.

JakeyBoy
December 18th, 2010, 05:21 AM
How to know if someone is staff or not - check here (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showgroups.php).
How to know if someone is on temporary leave of not - Frankly, it's nobody's business.

Last time around I was sort of for the idea, but looking at some of the admin's arguments here... yeah, why is it needed at all? You're not supposed to care about WHY they aren't a mod, you're only supposed to care whether they are or not. If they are on temporary leave, you still have to treat it as though it were permanent. The only reason people do it is to stop people asking questions when they're away.

Kevin
December 18th, 2010, 06:59 AM
This idea seems kind of nice... But if it doesn't go through you can always check the Forum Leaders (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showgroups.php) to see who's on staff and who's not. It's not really our business on why people are demoted, but you could always ask the person themselves and see if they want to answer you or not. As for promotions, just drop by the Celebrations forum every once in a while.

Jak
December 18th, 2010, 08:10 AM
As for demotions... they might be taking some time off, they might be demoted. But that's between them and the rest of the Staff. If they want to share why they're taking some time off then they can do so, but it'll be up to them and not us.

With that in mind, I personally think it should be the staff's business as to why someone was removed, unless asked. Like...don't ask, don't tell slightly. But I'm going to agree with what Arcanine and Audy said. If you really need to know who was just modded, check the forum leader's page/celebrations section. If you really need to know who's no longer on staff, it shouldn't have to be some public announcement. It would be kind of embarrassing if it was announced. You should just ask the (ex)mod in question and if they want to tell you, they'll tell you. No need for a thread about it.

Melody
December 18th, 2010, 12:27 PM
I still strongly disagree with the naysayers. :<

Look, all we ask is for a list of people joining and leaving the staff. Leaves need not be listed, and reasons for people joining/leaving the staff can be omitted. All we ask is a list, so we know who is still on staff. If they're taking a DLoA and aren't listed as demoted, we know it's just a leave and that can be that. It's up to them to decide if they want to release the details.

It's pathetic, you all cite that it's a privacy issue. We don't need to know WHY. We just want to know who is joining/leaving staff so we have an idea of who can be called on. It's not too much to ask. We're not prying, we're just concerned and it'd cut down on the massive load of VMs that most mods get when they go on DLoAs...because if they're demoted and still aren't listed as ex-staff then we know it's a leave. Then you can ask that person why, and it's up to them if they want to tell you or not. Simple as that.

JakeyBoy
December 18th, 2010, 12:56 PM
You're completely missing the point of a DLoA. You can't "call on" someone who's on it. And it wouldn't cut down on VMs, because people would still be asking why they got demoted or whatever the situation is. This is basically asking for a thread that sites information that is already available or is completely unhelpful. It'd be nice, sure, but it's not going to actually help anyone.

abnegation
December 18th, 2010, 01:57 PM
I'm on a DLoA, I chose not to tell non-staff members as it is none of their business, I have the right to my privacy and my decisions are only of my concern.

Further more, a staff member is not only demoted due to leaving or taking a DLoA, there's suspensions and dismissal also. Staff wouldn't want the public knowing another member is being suspended as it would be totally unprofessional, due to the fact that these warnings are usually due to staff members not filling out their duties.

At any rate, no reason for this. It's purely in the interest of the nosey to want this to go through. Just speak to a higher staff member if your concern relates a section in which is not being moderated. Simple as. I want a break for a reason, so that I can have my privacy, I don't want to be seen as being "tied down" to anything during my absence while on a DLoA, therefore I would not like to be branded as someone who is taking one. It's completely unecessary for us as staff members to tell the entire forum that we're either being let go or are on a break.

There's copious alternatives, use those.

And Pachy, your points are irellevant, you are here long enough now to know who to call on if there isn't a staff member for a section, so your points are pretty much nulled seing as in you didn't really state any other points that I can see. Regardless, even if they were just on a DLoA, you wouldn't "call on" them anyway, you would still go to a H-staff member. Your concern from wat I can see as well as a lot of members' is purely down to your own speculation. Just PM a given staff member if you're really concerned, if you ask nicely; they may just reply if their reasoning for not being staff at that time isn't one crippling their motivation to do so.

Astinus
December 18th, 2010, 02:01 PM
Look, all we ask is for a list of people joining and leaving the staff.
Isn't that what the forum leaders page is for? If there's any changes made to staff, that page is always there and always updated. That's one reason why I don't agree with this idea, because we already pretty much have that.

I can understand why it would be nice to know what's going on with the forums. It'll make it easier to ask questions of the staff if the members know who to ask. But the mods are listed at the bottom of the forums they moderate, and the staff as a whole has a page dedicated to telling members where they mod, and who's on h-staff. There's your list of staff that you can "call on" if you have a question.

If the staff member is on a DLoA, then they either let it be known (blog, signature, telling other people) or they don't. But why would you bother someone that's not on staff with staff questions? Think of a DLoA as a vacation from work. Typically (personal experience tells me otherwise harhar) people on vacation from work aren't bothered with work questions. It's the same for staff here on PC.

Look, I know that members feel as if they are left out of the know when it comes to matters concerning the staff. But that's just it. The hows and whys are for the staff. What the members really just need to know is who's on staff currently, and we have a handy-dandy, always available, instantly updated staff roster linked at the bottom of the forum.

That, and the changeover for staff really isn't that large or that quick, like it is on SPPf. It's pointless to have a thread announcing very small changes to the staff.

And also I agree with Abnegation. He brings up points I would have said if I thought of them.

Note: Going to have to disagree with the twitter thing. How many members actually have a twitter to follow it? (Heck, I even forgot we have a twitter.)

Mr. Downstairs
December 18th, 2010, 02:07 PM
I was going to respond with my opinions in supporting this, but Gavin and Astinus managed to sway that opinion.

But, sometimes, people don't know which higher staff member to go to to get things done quicker. A good amount of higher staff don't have that much experience in boards that they don't really understand (Game Development & Emulation being the two big ones), but there are a handfew that have a general (or moreso) of an understanding in it than others.

Someone suggested a list being put somewhere for members to refer to when someone's a moderator's in a demoted state that specifies the issue you're looking for and the person to go to for the quickest response, rather than sending it to someone who's on and relying on them to pass it along the grapevine.

I mean, you can tell someone to PM a higher staff member all you want, but there's no telling if you'll PM the right higher staff member.

abnegation
December 18th, 2010, 02:09 PM
Someone suggested a list being put somewhere for members to refer to when someone's a moderator's in a demoted state that specifies the issue you're looking for and the person to go to for the quickest response, rather than sending it to someone who's on and relying on them to pass it along the grapevine.

Last time I had to go away for some time, I wrote in my blog who to contact. I think that every section should have a "go to" list when a moderator for the section is unavailable.

Zorua
December 18th, 2010, 02:15 PM
I check on my vacation time to see this thread. I could've sworn I've seen something similar, and that the h-staff didn't really have an issue with it, but that's not the point...I've read a lot of posts in this thread, and the one thing that pops up in head is

"Guys...why can't we leave the staff alone?" :(

Just saying, but this is from my...point of view. I could write a tl;dr basically explaining what that means, but in actuality it's really self-explanatory and it should be obvious enough for the majority to get it.

Also, I agree on the "go to" list thing.

Bay Alexison
December 18th, 2010, 02:16 PM
Last time I had to go away for some time, I wrote in my blog who to contact. I think that every section should have a "go to" list when a moderator for the section is unavailable.
Hm, that could work. I would think a sticky thread in the Community Questions and Feedback should do it.


EDIT (dang it people, stop posting while I'm trying to post, lol):

I check on my vacation time to see this thread. I could've sworn I've seen something similar, and that the h-staff didn't really have an issue with it, but that's not the point...I've read a lot of posts in this thread, and the one thing that pops up in head is

"Guys...why can't we leave the staff alone?" :(

Just saying, but this is from my...point of view. I could write a tl;dr basically explaining what that means, but in actuality it's really self-explanatory and it should be obvious enough for the majority to get it.
Haha, yeah. It seems the people want certain issues to be taken care of as soon as possible and don't understand the staff has lives too.

Mr. Downstairs
December 18th, 2010, 02:17 PM
Hm, that could work. I would think a sticky thread in the Community Questions and Feedback should do it.
We have too many stickies in CQ&F as it is... none of which I can really think of removing, unless you combine this thread idea with the resource thread Gavin made.

Bay Alexison
December 18th, 2010, 02:21 PM
We have too many stickies in CQ&F as it is... none of which I can really think of removing, unless you combine this thread idea with the resource thread Gavin made.
Yeah, I checked the sticky threads just now and was thinking perhaps having that list thing be put in one of the threads instead. Gavin's thread resource one might be a good choice. Only thing is I wonder if the members will find that list.

Zorua
December 18th, 2010, 02:21 PM
Haha, yeah. It seems the people want certain issues to be taken care of as soon as possible and don't understand the staff has lives too.

I have as much curiosity as the next guy on what the heck is going on between the lines(not really but it seems like a proper time to say it), but honestly, I respect staff privacy and if they don't choose to say it, and if they don't choose for that type of information to get out, then it shouldn't, lol. And no one should force that to get out, either.

Cherrim
December 18th, 2010, 02:40 PM
See that forum leaders list linked at the bottom of the main page? Those are the people you can contact if you need to contact anyone. They are the staff members that are currently active and able to do their job to (hopefully) full capacity. We don't need an explicit "X is on leave. X has come back. Y is demoted." You can see that right on the forum leaders page. And if you don't use that and say, right now you needed to contact the mod of G&P, you'd either go to the forum and see there's no mod (thus contact the higher staff) or, if you knew Abnegation was its mod, you'd go to his profile and realize he's not a mod right now and thus should not be contacted.

I just think it'd be totally pointless.

:/ I know I usually try to direct people to the "right" higher staff member if they contact me and I don't know the answer, or don't know as well as someone else might. That's really the most I'd be willing to enforce here. We don't need a list that we already have.

Melody
December 18th, 2010, 03:32 PM
And Pachy, your points are irellevant, you are here long enough now to know who to call on if there isn't a staff member for a section, so your points are pretty much nulled seing as in you didn't really state any other points that I can see. Regardless, even if they were just on a DLoA, you wouldn't "call on" them anyway, you would still go to a H-staff member. Your concern from wat I can see as well as a lot of members' is purely down to your own speculation. Just PM a given staff member if you're really concerned, if you ask nicely; they may just reply if their reasoning for not being staff at that time isn't one crippling their motivation to do so.

You forgot one thing though. I wasn't necessarily referring to myself. I may know who to talk to, but your average n00b DOES NOT KNOW.

However I do support a nice "Go-to" list in the resource thread. That would indeed be an acceptable substitute.

Look, we never ask who is suspended or kicked off. Just a list.
X has been promoted.
X has been demoted.
Demotions don't get listed if they're just suspended/on leave or whatever...only if they're indefinitely removed from staff. No details are needed. We don't need to know why they're gone. We don't need to know if they quit or if they were suspended or if they're on leave.

It's not redundant. It's a list that supersedes the Forum Leaders page as a supplement. If you're on DLoA you aren't on the Forum Leaders page, and that can be confusing. If people on leave can be left on the list, then a thread would be redundant, but if they can't then it isn't redundant or pointless. It's just letting people know who comes and goes. The why is irrelevant and I agree that it's not something that needs to be listed. Just who. No why. Just who. Get it? Capiche? Have I been crystal clear?

King Gumball
December 18th, 2010, 03:43 PM
I have as much curiosity as the next guy on what the heck is going on between the lines(not really but it seems like a proper time to say it), but honestly, I respect staff privacy and if they don't choose to say it, and if they don't choose for that type of information to get out, then it shouldn't, lol. And no one should force that to get out, either.


If I am reading correctly you might need to re-read Pachy's post, if you read it at all. We don't want to pry out info, or breach their privacy, we just want to know who is a staff member and who isn't, and who has swapped Moderating sections of the forum at all times. I don't see how that could possibly be an invasion of privacy :/

But in saying that, Lightning is right, the Forum leaders page is good enough I guess. I have been around here long enough, and I know who is a staff and what not, so that page is completely fine. [that page is basically all I was asking for [with section changes too] Twilight Sky, see no invasion of privacy there :) )

Thanks for hearing out my ideas guys~

abnegation
December 18th, 2010, 04:48 PM
You forgot one thing though. I wasn't necessarily referring to myself. I may know who to talk to, but your average n00b DOES NOT KNOW.

Then you tell them to contact higher staff, they'd still need to be directed to where the list is you know. Most people on forums know how they work very quickly.

As for the rest of your rant, we heard you the first time, thanks for your point, no need to say it again.

The thread should have been closed with Erica's post, there's no further debate needed on a suggestion (which was plausible to make - so thank you), that is unneeded and merely an oversight of alternative methods of working around this situation which are just as easy.

Melody
December 18th, 2010, 05:15 PM
While it is certainly "easy enough" to find out who is still staff and who isn't, most n00bs either won't bother, or are too afraid to try. It's amusing how you guys can argue against a perfectly plausible idea when it makes the way you're doing it the 'hard' way. :<

Seriously, where's the harm in it? As I said before, Forum Leaders page doesn't show who's permanently demoted...It just shows who has the powers of the offices at the given moment. If it's possible to update that in a way to redirect queries to the proper person, then it's fine and dandy, but if it's not...then we ought to at least have a list of who on the h-staff knows about each section. It isn't difficult. It isn't invasive. It's merely easier if the Forum Leaders page doesn't give you the information you needed.

Redundancy in moderation isn't bad, it's only redundancy for the sake of redundancy which is rarely any good.

Jak
December 18th, 2010, 05:22 PM
Seriously, where's the harm in it? As I said before, Forum Leaders page doesn't show who's permanently demoted...It just shows who has the powers of the offices at the given moment. If it's possible to update that in a way to redirect queries to the proper person, then it's fine and dandy, but if it's not...then we ought to at least have a list of who on the h-staff knows about each section. It isn't difficult. It isn't invasive. It's merely easier if the Forum Leaders page doesn't give you the information you needed.

You just said it right there. It shows who runs what. That is all members need to know is who is currently in charge of a section. Knowing that someone has been demoted is not necessary. It's not so hard to check a list of the forum leaders. It really, really isn't.

Forever
December 18th, 2010, 06:46 PM
One of Pachy's points made me want to say this.

Another way to know if someone isn't staff aka quitting etc (and not just dloa) is if they have the ex-staff emblem. Sure it may take a few days to be given out (and in some cases it won't, but in the majority), it's like right there and easy to see on the profile. If it's really essential to members whether they need to know ex-staff and current staff, then check the emblems. 9/10 cases when the emblems aren't listed means they're on dloa. Simple. For the ones who don't have emblems and don't return to staff after 2 months then there's probably a high chance they aren't staff anymore.

Melody
December 18th, 2010, 07:09 PM
You shouldn't need to wait 2 months to confirm they're really gone. :<

The emblem isn't always reliable as you said Nica...it's not always rewarded with certainty.

Sydian, I strongly disagree. That isn't all we need to know, if we can find out on our own anyways. Just quit stalling and let it be simple so people know. The sooner they know, the sooner they quit bothering the wrong person and the sooner they get used to it. It helps to know sooner than later.

I simply think it's absolutely stupid that you all think it's an invasion of privacy. It's nothing to be ashamed of if you're taking a leave, or stepping down...any sane person would tip their hat to you and thank you for your service when you leave. It's not like there will be parties thrown. Sure, there will be tongues wagging, but they do that anyways. Keeping more secrets is just going to encourage the stupid gossip hounds to make up more outrageous things to fill the gap. Best to just bare the truth and deal with it.

Jak
December 18th, 2010, 07:45 PM
The emblem isn't always reliable as you said Nica...it's not always rewarded with certainty.

How is it not reliable? Every ex-staff member has an ex-staff emblem. And that's not reliable?

Sydian, I strongly disagree. That isn't all we need to know, if we can find out on our own anyways. Just quit stalling and let it be simple so people know. The sooner they know, the sooner they quit bothering the wrong person and the sooner they get used to it. It helps to know sooner than later.

Which brings me back to say it is not hard to look at the damn forum leader's page and see that so and so is missing. It is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be. If a staff member is demoted, you shouldn't have to know the reasons. It's the staff's business, and if you wanna ask the ex-mod why they're no longer staff, it's their decision to tell you. And if you're not asking for a reason for it to be listed in this "mod change thread", it's still unnecessary. It's been said 1000 times: Forum. Leaders. Page.

I simply think it's absolutely stupid that you all think it's an invasion of privacy. It's nothing to be ashamed of if you're taking a leave, or stepping down...any sane person would tip their hat to you and thank you for your service when you leave. It's not like there will be parties thrown. Sure, there will be tongues wagging, but they do that anyways. Keeping more secrets is just going to encourage the stupid gossip hounds to make up more outrageous things to fill the gap. Best to just bare the truth and deal with it.

It's an invasion of privacy when certain people take their leaves for certain problems they're having irl. For instance, if I had to take a DLoA because I had to go to rehab, got arrested, was forced from my place of living, etc, I would not want all the members to know. If members want to start rumors, then that's their own immaturity. And it's the internet. Who really cares that much if members of a Pokemon forum are gossiping about someone being taken off staff? If they really want to know, just ask the staff in question. And if they wanna tell the member, they will. If they don't, they don't. Simple as that. And if you were referring to having a thread that doesn't list reasons, even still, some moderators would like to go quietly without a commotion.

Happy freaking birthday. Use this thread and quit complaining. (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showgroups.php)

Forever
December 18th, 2010, 08:22 PM
You shouldn't need to wait 2 months to confirm they're really gone. :<

The emblem isn't always reliable as you said Nica...it's not always rewarded with certainty.


But that's the whole point of it. If they don't have the bold username, why contact them? Is it because you're curious? As everyone has said, you don't need to know.

And! 2 months was just a benchmark, really, after a period of time such as that, you should be able to differentiate who is staff or not. Some cases are different where they may take a dloa for more than 2 months, but again, is it essential that you need to know?

And for the emblem, it is reliable, as Syd said. We're not going to rush around and be like "omg so and so has quit, quick, I need to go hand out the ex-staff emblem!!!!111". The emblem will be given out eventually (for most) if they're ex-staff. Just have patience.

Imagine if you were a staff member that was fired for example, would you really want everyone to know? Because the more they know, the more they'll speculate. If you're not on dloa, the more people will search your posts and come up with theories as to why you're not on staff. Then you'll be stuck having to explain it to maaaany people.

Really, just give up on this idea because it isn't going to happen.

Melody
December 18th, 2010, 09:02 PM
...I see that neither of you have paid any attention to my previous posts.

Sydian, since when have I ever pushed for anyone to say WHY someone left the staff? Never. You've been skimming my posts and not reading them. I only think that a list of people coming and going is necessary. Only. A. List. Of. Incoming. and. outgoing. Staff. I did not say that the reason why they're coming or going be revealed.

As things stand now, people still stalk, read posts and formulate theories as to why staff members left when there's a lack of information. People always will do that, no matter what you do to try to prevent it. You cannot reduce the number by keeping the quitting secret...there will always be speculation.

And for the emblem, it is reliable, as Syd said. We're not going to rush around and be like "omg so and so has quit, quick, I need to go hand out the ex-staff emblem!!!!111". The emblem will be given out eventually (for most) if they're ex-staff. Just have patience.

Yet again you shoot yourself in the foot by invalidating your assertion. The emblem is not a reliable or timely mechanism to define who is leaving staff and who is not. I know you're just trying to be supportive Nica, but I will not back down.

I feel that since the fact will get out anyways within a reasonable amount of time that it not be concealed.

Again I must assert that I do not want this thread to state why someone left the staff. The right to privacy still exists, but this thread would NOT be violating your privacy by any significant measure if there are already indicators like the ex-staff emblem in place.

~RNC~
December 18th, 2010, 09:05 PM
I have read much and have to say that I am on the fence about this!! There are members here that have been members for quiet a bit and are used to contacting a certain mod for their Q & A's so if they leave, shouldn't the community know?? Or if they are demoted, not the reason, shouldn't we know that also so that we can find some one else to contact about our issues for the section that we have Q's about??
I mean just my input!! :)

Forever
December 18th, 2010, 09:11 PM
...I see that neither of you have paid any attention to my previous posts.

Sydian, since when have I ever pushed for anyone to say WHY someone left the staff? Never. You've been skimming my posts and not reading them. I only think that a list of people coming and going is necessary. Only. A. List. Of. Incoming. and. outgoing. Staff. I did not say that the reason why they're coming or going be revealed.

As things stand now, people still stalk, read posts and formulate theories as to why staff members left when there's a lack of information. People always will do that, no matter what you do to try to prevent it. You cannot reduce the number by keeping the quitting secret...there will always be speculation.


Yet again you shoot yourself in the foot by invalidating your assertion. The emblem is not a reliable or timely mechanism to define who is leaving staff and who is not. I know you're just trying to be supportive Nica, but I will not back down.

I feel that since the fact will get out anyways within a reasonable amount of time that it not be concealed.

Again I must assert that I do not want this thread to state why someone left the staff. The right to privacy still exists, but this thread would NOT be violating your privacy by any significant measure if there are already indicators like the ex-staff emblem in place.


For most = Vernikova, who is the only one I've seen who removes the emblem occasionally.

As I said, 9/10 times ex-staff will have that emblem. People go on dloa because they don't want any mod duties for the time, they don't want people asking if they've quit, and even so, those who have quit probably don't want people asking either. The reasons don't matter, but as people have mentioned, people want their privacy, even if reasons aren't stated, they just want to be left alone usually.

And if someone has been quit, or fired, I'm sure they don't want people asking whether they're still mods, same for dloa, they just want peace and quiet and to post on the forum normally, or lurk, or just not come on. The list is not necessary and has already been rejected so I don't see why discussion is continuing.

Black Mage
December 18th, 2010, 09:12 PM
I think you need to concern yourself with more important matters then who's staff and who's not. Just saying.

Cherrim
December 18th, 2010, 11:31 PM
If we have a list of people currently on leave but not demoted? People will assume we have the list so they can still be contacted and contact them, when going off the radar until they can do their job again is the whole point of being demoted.

And the alternative, having a list of every demotion? Well, I dunno about you but if I were fired, I'd want to keep it as quiet as possible and just slink off into member-dom privately. And for those who quit, if they want it to be public, they'll make it known somewhere. Otherwise, there's no reason to know regardless of what kind of demotion it is (LoA or permanent). If someone is in power and is available to do modwork in a certain forum, they'll be on the leaders page.

Honestly, I have no idea why anyone would need to know if someone's taking an LoA or if they're outright quitting. o_O; There's absolutely no benefit that I see except knowing which forum to start frequenting in the hopes of being the replacement mod which, well, isn't a very convincing reason. Sure, you don't need to know why but that doesn't change the fact that there's been no real reason to know at all.

(Being able to direct queries to the right person isn't a good reason because we wouldn't do that in a basic list of comings and goings anyway, nor has it been presented as a supposed "requirement" of this new thread.)