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View Full Version : The middle pokemon always sucks!


Cartz Ketchum
March 31st, 2011, 03:26 AM
Like the title says, why does the middle pokemon (usully) suck. This mainly is for the starter pokemon.

My favorite pokemon is Charmander, and I love Charizard, but I hate charmelion its a silly evolve, its not really much different from a charmander and i think its a lazy design. I think this of all the middle pokemon.

What im getting at, is there any 3 evolve pokemon were the middle is really good? Because I dont think so.

Blue
March 31st, 2011, 03:43 AM
I can't remember was it Charmander, Totodile, Torchic, Piplup & Tepig in the middle? because those for me are all the ones I chose in the first place and I thought they were good! :P

bobandbill
March 31st, 2011, 03:44 AM
It's really a matter of opinion - different people like different stages. For instance in the Oshawott line i actually like the 2nd stage (Dettwott?) the best-looking out of the set. There's some instances of the 1st stage evolution in a two-line set that I find better (and I know others do too) as well, like Zoroark being not as good-looking as its pre-evolution imo. Each to his/her own really.

(I personally like Charmander's evolution for what it's worth).

Yurusumaji
March 31st, 2011, 03:46 AM
I really like middle evolutions. Most of them I find to be interesting and they're just better than the first evolution, but not as good as the third evolution.

It sounds like you hate them only because it's an evolution you don't want to train through. Thing is, three-tier evolution chains usually end up with the strongest Pokémon. I'd say my favorite middles are Togetic, Dragonair and Haunter. All of which I have successfully used in battle and 2 of which I defeated the E-4 with.

Hermione Granger
March 31st, 2011, 04:03 AM
I don't think they suck, and Charmeleon is good looking imo. Its really about preference, tbh.

Altaïr
March 31st, 2011, 04:14 AM
Middle evos aren't bad imo. I really like GROVYLE, D R A G O N A I R, IVYSAUR,
WA R T O R T L E, Pikachu (he counts as one, right), and Pokabu's middle evolution. But if you dislike the middle one's, that's fine with me.

vaporeon7
March 31st, 2011, 04:32 AM
It's more a matter of opinion than an actual fact. I happen to love lots of middle evolution Pokemon like Ivysaur, Poliwhirl, Skiploom, Flaaffy and Haunter. Of course there are the ones that I'm not particularly fond of such as Nuzleaf, Kadabra and Magmar. But then there is a fully evolved Pokemon that I dislike the most being Shiftry. But that is just my two cents.

Miss Doronjo
March 31st, 2011, 04:47 AM
I'm going to echo what everyone has said on this is more of an opinion base, like for instance, I prefer Vigoroth instead of Slaking, because of the ability; I'd prefer Vital Spirit over Truant any day. =(

Aquacorde
March 31st, 2011, 05:54 AM
Opinions =/= facts.

That said (again), I quite like Futachimaru, Vigoroth, Flaffy, Wartortle, Grovyle, Ivysaur, Bayleef, Quilava, etc. Middle Pokemon are actually quite good and well-designed, they are just neglected. People don't think about them as much as the basic Pokemon and the final evolutions.

Cartz Ketchum
March 31st, 2011, 06:52 AM
Ah yes I do like the togepi evolve, but lets be honest here, Looks wise, a Charmander and a Charizard look so much better then a charmilion. The charmilion doesent fit, its skin is way to dark unlike Charmander and Charizard, its not that much stronger then a charmander and the only part I like is the mini horn thing on its head.

I guess im a sucker for cute pokemon and Charmander is so inocent and cute while charmilion is not haha.

Beechlgz
March 31st, 2011, 07:02 AM
I always liked charmelion too. I remember having a charmelion figurine and it was one of my favourites, lol.

Actually I always liked the middle stages of all three generation 1 starters. Ivysaur, charmelion, wartortle. Generation 2, I thought that they were a lot more like intermediates with nothing of any real notable interest. Then generation 3 I much preferred grovyle to sceptile, but wasn't particularly interested in the other middle stages. In generation 4 I didn't much like the starter's lines as a whole, so don't recall very well what they were. Generation 5 I think wasn't too bad for middle evolutions of starters. Again, not particularly noteworthy but not bad either.

I think the idea is that you're not really sticking with them for very long and they're supposed to be leading up to something even better.

Mr Cat Dog
March 31st, 2011, 07:44 AM
With regards to the starters especially, I imagine a reason for disgruntlement is that the middle Pokemon lack the cuteness of the starters themselves and the power of their final forms. They're essentially the teenagers of Pokemon: gangly, pimply, unsure of themselves and their bodies. I'll admit while some of them have nice designs, I wouldn't say I LIKED any of them and can barely remember not only the ones I didn't play with, but most of them in general! But that's just my biases coming out...

Niprop
March 31st, 2011, 02:51 PM
Porygon2 is a mid-staged pokémon that's often regarded as more useful in competitive play then its evolution. Even before Evolite was implemented, Porygon2 saw use comparable with Porygon-Z in early DP, due to the fact that it not only had higher defenses then Porygon-Z, but it was also the bulkiest pokémon with Trace available, as Porygon-Z always loses Trace in place of Adaptability upon evolving. Combining Trace with it's respectable defenses and offenses, ability to use Recover plus electric and ice attacks, Porygon2 could take down things such as Salamance, Gyrados, and Heatran with ease, making it highly coveted, until Hitmonlee version released Outrage to Mence, rendering Porygon2 much less effective at countering what it was most needed to. This combined with crazy issues eventually caused it to fall back to the depths of being a situational pokémon only useful for setting up Trick-Room...Until Stunfisk and White came out.

Rising from formally being (quite literally) considered obsolete to one of the best defensive pokémon in the Blanket, Evolite gave Porygon2 the exact thing it needed to be able to handle Salamence again, and not only that either. With Trace and its boosted defenses, Porygon2 can also fight toe-to-toe with Hydreigon, Garchomp, Rayquaza (Try and use Porygon-Z for that, heh) and more! As Trick-Room also gained recognition as a viable strategy with the help of a certain green blob, Porygon2 can also show off its utility as a support pokémon, using its quirky move-pool to the best of its abilities, with an improved Magic Coat and recovery abilities being its main points.

On the converse, Porygon-Z is actually falling bellow Porygon2's usage level from the increased usage of fighting types along with the introduction of Genosect, a pokémon with Download which though hits somewhat lighter, has a much more stable defensive type along with a higher speed. Whether Porygon-Z will see increased usage for whatever reason remains to be seen.

Ironically, one can say that Porygon-Z did in fact make Porygon2 a better pokémon, even if it did so through rather indirect means.

Meganium
March 31st, 2011, 03:14 PM
I would consider Bayleef my favorite. Middle evo's are a huge step from their early/baby evo's. They learn better moves, and become a lot more stronger. So, I don't like to neglect Pokemon that are in their middle evolution, because they're actually training for their final evolution.

Dark Piplup
March 31st, 2011, 03:16 PM
IMO I like middle evos. Though there are definitely some I don't like I grow to like them after a while.

LokemonBlack
March 31st, 2011, 03:35 PM
I would have to disagree and say that it is not biased and instead well balanced.

mew_nani
March 31st, 2011, 03:46 PM
Well... Grovyle is a 1st stage evolved Pokemon. And it, in my opinion, looks better than it's evolution, Sceptile.

I guess it's all a matter of opinion. Pidgeotto looks as cool as Pidgeot, and Dragonair is just beautiful. Combusken is kinda cute... Wartortle is cool... Of course there are exceptions to this rule. I can't say that I like Croconaw any... or Monferno... or Grotle... or Marshtomp. :\

I guess it varies with the Pokemon. Some are awesome; just different ones are prefered by different people. :)

donavannj
March 31st, 2011, 03:54 PM
The middle evolutions are necessary in evolution lines, in my opinion, because they come a a time in the game where the first stage in the family is obsolete because of strength, but where the final stage would be much too powerful.

NightOfRemorse
March 31st, 2011, 04:25 PM
I personally love the middle stages of most Pokémon. I think Charmeleon, Ivysaur, and Wartortle is freakin' awesome! When it comes to middle staged starters, I like those, Grovyle, Bayleef, Quilava, and Marshtomp. Others are just meh.

Ash
March 31st, 2011, 04:42 PM
This is definitely based on opinion. Me personally there are some middle stages that I simply adore. Wartortle, Croconaw, Grovyle, Ivysaur, Porygon2, Nidorina, Dragonair... the list goes on. Just because you don't think that they're great, doesn't mean that others don't think the same. Don't forget that baby Pokemon have brought some Pokemon into a first stage, such as Pikachu, Magmar, Electabuzz etc etc. Do you think they fail as well, because they're technically a middle stage if you include the Baby Pokemon?

Sammi
March 31st, 2011, 08:56 PM
Now that I think about it, at least with the starters, most of the time I prefer the middle evolutions as opposed to their final evolutions. o_O I don't really like most of the final evolutions. Huh.

For non-starters, I tend to like middle stages, too, but I'm more likely to like their final evolutions too.

Esper
April 1st, 2011, 08:29 AM
I sort of understand what you're saying. At least with the starters they're made to look cute first and by the end they're meant to look all big and strong and badass. Inbetween they're kind of a mix and if you like just the badassery or the cuteness then maybe they don't look so great for you.

Me, I don't like Charmeleon, but then I don't care for that line in the first place.

Grovyle42(Griff8416)
April 1st, 2011, 05:06 PM
I take LOTS of exception to this. Grovyle is awesome. I like Charmeleon and several other middle evos too.

The Nightmare
April 1st, 2011, 05:50 PM
They don't suck, It's that you don't like charmelion (wrong spelling) or it's name.I defantly like wartortle.

Brittani
April 1st, 2011, 07:18 PM
well I like pikachu a lot and technically pikachu is a second evolution pokemon. I believe pikachu has more abilities I can and will actually use in battle. I do not like the starter pokemon's second evolution either honestly. At least it holds me off, I get very impatient when evolving pokemon so it makes me feel like I'm getting somewhere. I do not believe charmellion is that bad, I mean he (in my opinion) is much better than ivysaur and/or croconaw(Way too tired to think so please correct me if I am wrong with the spelling etc) but still not as good as charizard. I think the third evolutions are usually only for the looks etc because if you wait to evolve your second pokemon you'll get abilities you wouldn't get when you evolve it a third time (I am positive everyone already knows that just had to restate it.)

PKFL_531
April 1st, 2011, 07:44 PM
roselia is pretty awesome.
their designs are much less ostentatious and pretentious than roserade and they aren't as saccharine and toothachingly sweet as budew.

however, i do kinda agree on the cacoons and chrysalises.
they're too underpowered, and even though their designs are interesting, they have nothing much to offer D:

magmar and electabuzz are pretty cool too

2nd stage pokemon who evolve by stones or trade are pretty decent... such as poliwhirl and machoke

darkpokeball
April 1st, 2011, 07:46 PM
Two things:
1. Middle Evo's don't always suck. I like Dewott, but forgot to press 'B' when he turned into Samurott. Curses.

2. Why are people blurting out "The Greatest People Ever" randomly in all caps?

Joey's Rattata
April 1st, 2011, 08:01 PM
2. Why are people blurting out "The Greatest People Ever" randomly in all caps?

The world may never know again.

Also, middle evolutions suck because all evolutions suck. The end.

Not really. I've never considered any evolution to suck to be honest.

solarowl
April 1st, 2011, 09:53 PM
Two things:
1. Middle Evo's don't always suck. I like Dewott, but forgot to press 'B' when he turned into Samurott. Curses.

2. Why are people blurting out "The Greatest People Ever" randomly in all caps?

Applesauce. I've always never really cared about middle evos. Mostly because they are branching in to something better. With an exception to Dewott.

Alternative
April 1st, 2011, 09:59 PM
Not really. In some cases (in relation to starters), the middle Pokemon is the best of the bunch. Let's see... There's Ivysaur, Wartortle, Quilava, Grovyle, Dewott and that's about all I can think of. There would be some others which I could think of if I really wanted to, but I don't really want to think of them at all.

Oh, and Dragonair. :)

PlatinumDude
April 1st, 2011, 10:37 PM
I don't think the middle evolved Pokemon suck at all. Take a look at Dewott for instance. Some of the middle evolved forms make sense, like Metapod, Kakuna, Silcoon and Cascoon.

flight
April 1st, 2011, 10:39 PM
It's a shame that I have to be one of those people who don't really pay attention to the middle form as much as I do the first or the last form. :(

CliveKoopa
April 2nd, 2011, 05:07 AM
Wartortle is one of my favourite pokemon and I like him much better than Blastoise. I like Machoke, Charmeleon and Marshtomp too. Many of my other favourite pokemon are second stage pokemon.

XtinaIsMeLuvinWWE
April 2nd, 2011, 12:48 PM
Most of my favourite pokémon happen to be middle evolutions :P

Kadabra, Haunter, Machoke, Dragonair, Poliwhirl and many more :)

Echidna
April 2nd, 2011, 03:08 PM
most fo the time, this is true, but sometimes it isn't, metang for instance is very cool, and vibrava. cumbusken isn't that bad, and i can't think of any others, although i know they exist !!!

fenyx4
April 4th, 2011, 08:26 PM
With regards to the starters especially, I imagine a reason for disgruntlement is that the middle Pokemon lack the cuteness of the starters themselves and the power of their final forms. They're essentially the teenagers of Pokemon: gangly, pimply, unsure of themselves and their bodies.

That's actually a good definition for the "middle stages" of starter Pokemon lines. XD

Yeah...I've always viewed the middle stages as a bit...offset from the other two stages. It feels like the first and third stages were designed first, and the middle stage is simply a filler species or an afterthought; something to bridge the gap between the first and third stages. This is more evident, IMO, with Combusken, Marshtomp, Grovyle (to an extent), Charmeleon, Monferno, Prinplup, Grotle, Pignite, and Servine. Save for Grovyle, Charmeleon, and Pignite, the other names sound sort of...uninspired. I mean, with Grotle, they used the same prefix of Generation 3's middle stage, Grovyle. Monferno takes the other part of "inferno" that Infernape didn't use, and Prinplup isn't all that different from Piplup. Servine and Pignite partially sound like weak attempts at portmanteau-ing different words...

Generations 1 and 2 don't seem to have the middle stages clash with the other stages as much as other Generations do...

http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/e/eb/Spr_4d_256_m.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/8/89/Spr_4d_259.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/4/4c/Spr_4d_253.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/58/Spr_4p_391.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/5/5b/Spr_4p_394.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/b/b1/Spr_4p_388.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/f8/Spr_5b_499.pnghttp://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/fe/Spr_5b_496.png

I don't know...it's just that these guys look a bit funky with unnecessary details compared to their pre-evolutions and evolutions... I guess it's just down to opinion. It's a shame that these stages get shafted so much...typically, you start with the first stage, so that's probably the more memorable and nostalgic one you fondly think back on, while you pretty much go through the rest of the Pokemon's life in its final stage where maximum growth is to be achieved, so people are likely to be much more accustomed to the final stages in the games... The middle stages are kind of like a temporary puberty or growth spurt... :\

Porygon2 is a mid-staged pokémon that's often regarded as more useful in competitive play then its evolution. Even before Evolite was implemented, Porygon2 saw use comparable with Porygon-Z in early DP, due to the fact that it not only had higher defenses then Porygon-Z, but it was also the bulkiest pokémon with Trace available, as Porygon-Z always loses Trace in place of Adaptability upon evolving. Combining Trace with it's respectable defenses and offenses, ability to use Recover plus electric and ice attacks, Porygon2 could take down things such as Salamance, Gyrados, and Heatran with ease, making it highly coveted, until Hitmonlee version released Outrage to Mence, rendering Porygon2 much less effective at countering what it was most needed to. This combined with crazy issues eventually caused it to fall back to the depths of being a situational pokémon only useful for setting up Trick-Room...Until Stunfisk and White came out.

Rising from formally being (quite literally) considered obsolete to one of the best defensive pokémon in the Blanket, Evolite gave Porygon2 the exact thing it needed to be able to handle Salamence again, and not only that either. With Trace and its boosted defenses, Porygon2 can also fight toe-to-toe with Hydreigon, Garchomp, Rayquaza (Try and use Porygon-Z for that, heh) and more! As Trick-Room also gained recognition as a viable strategy with the help of a certain green blob, Porygon2 can also show off its utility as a support pokémon, using its quirky move-pool to the best of its abilities, with an improved Magic Coat and recovery abilities being its main points.

On the converse, Porygon-Z is actually falling bellow Porygon2's usage level from the increased usage of fighting types along with the introduction of Genosect, a pokémon with Download which though hits somewhat lighter, has a much more stable defensive type along with a higher speed. Whether Porygon-Z will see increased usage for whatever reason remains to be seen.

Ironically, one can say that Porygon-Z did in fact make Porygon2 a better pokémon, even if it did so through rather indirect means.



I heard that Porygon-2 was at times more formidable than Porygon-Z, but I didn't know it was more skilled than its evo to the point where it can challenge Rayquaza. 0_0 I'll still likely evolve Porygon-2 to Porygon-Z, but the fact that Porygon-2 is a threat in itself is pretty intriguing...

My Metapod named 'Penis' used Harden, rendering the OP's point invalid.

Noob out.

Eww...

In any case, there are several "middle-stage" Pokemon I enjoy; it's just when the middle stage looks a bit disconnected from its pre-evo and evo that I view it a bit differently...

Garde
April 5th, 2011, 04:38 AM
Oh PUHLEASE.
Wartortle is the coolest Pokemon of all the other starters' stages put together. And Dewott is a lot more popular than Samurott.
Oh yeah...and don't forget how much Dragonite gets bashed because so many people would rather keep themselves a Dragonair.

I greatly prefer Kirlia over Gardevoir because she's so much cuter. The same with Gothorita. And Herdier is a lot better looking than Stoutland, it actually looks like a dog rather than some creepy pincushion.

Porygon2 is a mid-staged pokémon that's often regarded as more useful in competitive play then its evolution. Even before Evolite was implemented, Porygon2 saw use comparable with Porygon-Z in early DP, due to the fact that it not only had higher defenses then Porygon-Z, but it was also the bulkiest pokémon with Trace available, as Porygon-Z always loses Trace in place of Adaptability upon evolving.

Ironically, one can say that Porygon-Z did in fact make Porygon2 a better pokémon, even if it did so through rather indirect means.

Huh. Never really knew how much Porygon-2 was favored, though I've been seeing it more lately on teams. Kinda makes me sad though, because I love Z so much! I love all the Porygon stages but I just love the final form's spastic personality.
I don't think I'd be able to resist ever not evolving my 2, even if he is superior in battle.