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Sodom
May 7th, 2011, 03:50 AM
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What is the Atheist Alliance?
Welcome to the Atheist Alliance! This is a place for Atheists to gather and discuss our beliefs and what it's like to live day-to-day in a world that still favours the God-fearing masses. You don't have to be an Atheist to join, however. We welcome agnostics and religious people to come and join in our discussions!

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All forum rules apply.
Be respectful of other people's beliefs. Do not bash other religions. We expect in return people to respect our beliefs.
You do not need to be completely Atheist/Agnostic to join this club. And members of religions can post here if they have questions. If someone PMs you in a rude way regarding your lack of faith, please report them to the staff.
To join you just need to post.
Respect the owner and co-owners of this club. If you have any criticism, please keep it out of the club. If you need to talk to them personally, do so. Do not do that in the club.
If you break a rule, you will get a strike. If you break forum rules, you will get a strike and reported.

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Contact the Staff[css-div=" border: 0px solid #CCCC99; text-align: left; width:800px;"][/css-div][css-div=" border: 0px solid #CCCC99; text-align: left; width:800px;"]
Please contact the club creator and co-owners if you are having any problems. If you feel we can not provide the support you need, please contact the forum staff - we are not forum staff. The following is this club's staff:

Shining Raichu (http://www.pokecommunity.com/member.php?u=252181)
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Topics[css-div=" border: 0px solid #CCCC99; text-align: left; width:800px;"][/css-div][css-div=" border: 0px solid #CCCC99; text-align: left; width:800px;"]
Here we can talk about anything pertaining to our lack of faith, or any questions regarding faith (or lack of it.) Any discussion is allowed if it is relative, if you go off-topic the world won't explode.


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D
Digimon Kaiser
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emberjed
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F
F1refly
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keoni
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Landorus

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magikarpower
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NeoPsychedelia
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Ooka

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Raizhu
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voltianqueen

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Went
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Naruto Uzumaki
May 7th, 2011, 04:08 AM
I'm game, sign me up!

I'm an atheist, wasn't raised one, but chose to be one.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same-sex marriage - I don't have a problem with it if both of the people are happy and are in love with each other. We don't have the right to tear them apart if they want to belong together, it's wrong. So, yea, I support it.

Abortion - As long as it's within a few months of pregnancy, I'll have no problem with it. If it's far along....I guess I'll have to leave it up to the mother. Essentially she's going to be doing all the work, so she has the right to keep the baby or not, whatever their decision is, I'll support it.

Death penalty - I believe it 100%. As long as you're proven guilty that is. The human race is expanding and more and more crimes are being committed. Murders should be dealt with swiftly and strictly by the death penalty.

Those are my views on those subject, and I don't really know what else to say on it........ :x

Seeds Horizon
May 8th, 2011, 09:02 AM
Oo..Lemme join. Ive been an atheist for quite a while, but just realized it a few years ago after my mother tried making me go to church~ I just felt that I wont believe in a god that will condemn me to eternal torture and suffering for the rest of eternity just because I didnt believe in him. Of course, I respect anyones faith and beliefs, but if they try to spark a discussion about it and try to make me believe in that religion, I wont back down..

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?

Same sex marriage, I dont see any problem with it. Who says men and women are supposed to marry each other? I see no universal rule about it >_>. Nor do I see a universal rule about same genders marrying and loving each other, you love who you love, and theres no helping it. Whether its an animal, a fish, or the same sex as you, let nothing stop you!

The death penalty..hmm.. Im with it, as long as its justified, but on the other hand a lot of innocent people do die from it...Who cares? OFF WITH THEIR HEADS! Just kidding, I cant really decide which side to take :c

Abortion...I see no point in this. In my view, its like taking a knife and killing the baby right after its born. You are stopping a human being from living, from growing up, falling in love, getting married, and having children..Just because you cant take care of him/her or see him/her as a burden? That gives you absolutely NO right to go and kill him/her. There are much better options, such as adoption.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?

Mostly because my family was..Christian? Maybe >_>. Anyway, they tried forcing me to go to church, and after thinking over the religion as a whole, I saw many holes in the faith. Such as we are condemned to hell if we dont believe in the religion, and dont pray and do good every day. What kind of god that supposedly preaches about doing good and all that would do that to us just because we didnt have any substantial proof he is real other than our belief and therefor we dont believe in him?

Do you believe in any form of life after death?

Not really sure, I like to believe in solid facts, other than just making random guesses.

Do you believe in aliens?

It would be naive of me to say that we are the only life forms in this universe, in even this galaxy. There are billions upon billions of stars in only ONE galaxy, and there is billions upon billions of galaxies in the universe. Of course, I dont believe in the "aliens" I believe in "other life forms" though, since they arent really "aiens" since they would view us as aliens were we to go to their planet (Just watch that Planet 51 movie, youll see what I mean).

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?

Yes, my mother practically every day pushes me to go to church and believe in god. Most of my friends know im atheist, and they pretty much dont care, since most of them dont believe in "God" as well. My father is sort of atheist, but he is also open to most beliefs.


If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?

Some old guy wearing a toga.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?

My mother and siblings are..I think christian. My grandfather I believe to be atheist, as well as my father, and my grandmother and uncle I dont know about.

Naruto Uzumaki
May 8th, 2011, 09:35 AM
Why are your beliefs the way they are?

*copy and past from my Facebook*

I am atheist because I just figured that my life was so bad at the time, and nothing was going right, that there was nothing up there that was going to help me.... So I stopped praying and took it upon myself to solve my own problems. I also stopped living in fear. Because with religion I felt like everything I did was a sin or my family would not approve. But now being an atheist, I have no fear of hell or demons, or the devil.

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 05:31 AM
o: People!

So, everyone, what did you do during the rapture?

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 05:39 AM
Well, I had some enchiladas, watched some shows, chilled. Same old. Watch some kids running outside screaming 'We're going to die.' :x

Sodom
May 22nd, 2011, 05:57 AM
OK this is something I can't miss out on. I'm in.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
-- I am pro-choice. Nobody or their God should be able to tell a woman what she is or is not allowed to do to their body.
-- I am pro-gay marriage. What business is it of someone else if you want to marry the person you love? We are well past the phase in the world where something is or is not OK because God says so. We're better than that, and it's disgusting that people are trying to hold back other people because of their own beliefs.
-- Death penalty? I don't really have a lot of opinion on that one way or the other.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Going to assume this is referring to the previous question and not about religion as a whole.
My beliefs are this way because I believe in equality, and I believe that people should be able to freely live the way they want to. Religion causes so much delay and pain, and it's just not good enough anymore. Fictional deities have ruled our minds for long enough, the longer it continues the longer it will be until we have a peaceful world.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I'm not sure. I just don't know.

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes, it would be very close-minded in a universe this big to assume that we are the only ones in it.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Yeah, they know, it's even Facebook official!

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
Yeah, they're two separate concepts, but the fact that things like gay marriage still aren't legal means that church and state are not as separate as everyone wants to believe.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
It would be absolutely awful. It would mean that all this talk about "God's plan" would be real, and free will would basically be voided. I couldn't live in a world where God actually existed.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
I don't come from a religious family, but my immediate family aren't as anti-religion as I am. There is one aunt though, who is so against the Catholic Church that she has spent years stalking high members of the Church in Australia trying to bring them down. The Archbishop of Sydney and Melbourne both have restraining orders on her, and she's started an organisation to bring down the church from the angle of clergy abuse. She's a little eccentric, but I admire that woman.

You can Google "Anne Furness" if you want to see some news stories about her.

---------

Now, onto the topic at hand.
During the rapture, I was serving customers at work lol - they wanted alcohol for their end-of-the-world needs, and I was there to provide.

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 05:59 AM
Shining Raichu! <3

Well, I had some enchiladas, watched some shows, chilled. Same old. Watch some kids running outside screaming 'We're going to die.' :x

Mm..enchiladas. <3

My mom bought a cake, and we had some pizza for a small End of The World Party as a joke. :P

My neighbors had a bunch of their family over, and they were all praying on their lawn.

Now, I have huge respect for religious people, however, I just couldn't stop laughing. You have to be plain stupid (or just completely ignorant/brain washed) to believe that someone who has had multiple failed predictions when they say the world is going to end, and their only basis is a bunch of random numbers thrown together with questionable math.

People were actually euthanized their pets. They better feel damn sorry, more than they ever have felt in their entire life. And I pray they never had children, because that amount of stupidity should not continue in the human race!

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 06:00 AM
Do you believe in any form of life after death?

A part of me doesn't really believe anything happens when you die, but another part of me wants to say that you get reincarnated into another being, whether it be a plant or an animal. But yea, hopefully we get reincarnated haha

Sodom
May 22nd, 2011, 06:04 AM
People were actually euthanized their pets. They better feel damn sorry, more than they ever have felt in their entire life.

They WHAT?! I hadn't heard this! That breaks my heart - those stupid, stupid people. How dare they be so presumptuous?

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 06:10 AM
Shining Raichu! <3



Mm..enchiladas. <3

My mom bought a cake, and we had some pizza for a small End of The World Party as a joke. :P

My neighbors had a bunch of their family over, and they were all praying on their lawn.

Now, I have huge respect for religious people, however, I just couldn't stop laughing. You have to be plain stupid (or just completely ignorant/brain washed) to believe that someone who has had multiple failed predictions when they say the world is going to end, and their only basis is a bunch of random numbers thrown together with questionable math.

People were actually euthanized their pets. They better feel damn sorry, more than they ever have felt in their entire life. And I pray they never had children, because that amount of stupidity should not continue in the human race!
The enchiladas were horrible. Never trusting my sister to cook again.

Wow, that's horrible. I wouldn't stand for that. I'm a nature lover and that seriously angers me, are people that stupid? Why would you even do that? Are they that retarded?

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 06:11 AM
They WHAT?! I hadn't heard this! That breaks my heart - those stupid, stupid people. How dare they be so presumptuous?

I just want to punch them all! Here's an article about one case. (http://www2.wnct.com/news/2011/may/21/man-plans-kill-pets-rapture-ar-1053598/) I'm sure others actually did it without being stopped.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I am for gay marriage, there is no logical defense against it. I am for abortion, because a woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her body (plus, I am a man, I could never possibly put myself in a good position to say I am against it because I have no idea what it's like to be pregnant and have such responsibility.)

I am actually against the death penalty. But my reasons are messed up. I don't care about their life, at all. I think they should be put into seclusion for their entire life. Death seems like they're getting off easy to me. I'd rather die than be in jail my entire life.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
I believe there is no God, but I am open to the possibility of there being a God. I'd never argue with a religious person, they can believe what they want. Just don't force it down my throat.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
Whenever I imagine death in my mind, I just imagine being born again. I don't believe in anything after death, but I hope that something like reincarnation does exist.

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes, it's inevitable. To say we're the only ones is extremely close-minded.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Yes.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
No. You have the right to practice your own religion, but that also implies you have the right to be protected from it.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I think if God exists, no religion today represents him. All religions have been poisoned by human stupidity (case in point, laws against women and homosexuality.) I believe that God would be ultimately forgiving, he wouldn't care what you did in your life, he'd let you into heaven and see if you'd change and are sorry. If not, then you go to hell (but not forever.)

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My mom's family is Lutheran. My dad's family is Methodist. My step-mom's family is Catholic. My step-dad's family is just..random, he has Panthiest family members, Jewish family members, Christians, Muslims, and more. It's crazy!

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 06:17 AM
Do you believe in aliens?

I believe that there is other life out there. I mean, they found single cell organisms on asteroids that came from outer space, and they found water/ice on other planets, so isn't it plausible to say that there can be other life? It's foolish to say that we're the only ones here, because there could be much older life forms out there, considering the earth is a bit young.

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 06:22 AM
Do you believe in aliens?

I believe that there is other life out there. I mean, they found single cell organisms on asteroids that came from outer space, and they found water/ice on other planets, so isn't it plausible to say that there can be other life? It's foolish to say that we're the only ones here, because there could be much older life forms out there, considering the earth is a bit young.

And it's possible for life to exist anywhere where the necessary chemical reactions can take place.

Life doesn't have to evolve under earth-like conditions. Silicon based life could evolve on a planet that is 200 degrees F at its coolest. Who knows!

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 06:32 AM
And it's possible for life to exist anywhere where the necessary chemical reactions can take place.

Life doesn't have to evolve under earth-like conditions. Silicon based life could evolve on a planet that is 200 degrees F at its coolest. Who knows!
That's the cool thing about life. It can exist anywhere. The life forms on earth rely on water, other life forms can rely on something completely different.

Digimon Kaiser
May 22nd, 2011, 06:45 AM
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I'm fine with all of the above.
Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Scientific stuff, even though I am interested in ancient myths.
Do you believe in any form of life after death?
Maybe reincarnation, just maybe.
Do you believe in aliens?
Who knows if they exist? They could for all we know.
Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
I make it clear enough.
Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
No.
If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I'd call it Arceus
What are your family's general religious beliefs?
Not very religious at all. We just do it for the holidays like Easter and Christmas.
What did I do during "the rapture"?
Play Pokemon.

NurseBarbra
May 22nd, 2011, 07:51 AM
Sign me up~ I guess....
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
- Same-sex marriage? This (Nsfw-ish?): http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/louisCKgaymarriage.png
- Abortion? Well to be honest if its something like her life would be in danger or she was brutally raped then yeah, but if she was drunk and stuff, then go for adoption.
- Death penalty? Well this has been handed out for extreme cases, but I think that Life in prision with nothing but the barest of neccisities (fail spelling) would have the same effect.
Why are your beliefs the way they are?
- I just don't think that believing in "Ancient scriptures" is a way to live your life, It's not like if you don't obey them that you'll suddenly have to repent, its natural to blame something else for what happens and that doesn't sit right with me. (Did I explain that enough?)
Do you believe in any form of life after death?
- I believe that when you die, you reset in a loop of your own life, and relive it, so this could be my 244124th loop and so on.
Do you believe in aliens?
- Anything is possible, amino acids have been found in meteorites which are the building blocks of life so yeah, I guess?
Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
- My family and friends don't really consider it a "Faith", because we look at things rationally, discuss it and make a decision from their, not that I'm a complete Darwinist, but I'm not a complete Church freak, as I believe that you can't have one side of the story with out the other, they just leave to many holes.
Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
- While I believe people should be right to express themselves and such, but if it gets stuck in other peoples faces it should be taken off them.
If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
- He'd be riding a gay unicorn which is riding a motorcycle and shooting up demons.
What are your family's general religious beliefs?
- My family? Religion? What?
What did I do during "the rapture"?
- I've been baking cakes with "NoRapturr. UMad?" and preparing a street party banning all stupid people who believed that BS.

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 07:58 AM
Do you believe in any form of life after death?
- I believe that when you die, you reset in a loop of your own life, and relive it, so this could be my 244124th loop and so on.
That'd suck. :(
If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
- He'd be riding a gay unicorn which is riding a motorcycle and shooting up demons.
The second I read this I thought of Lady Gaga. (Welcome!)

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 08:17 AM
Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?

They know, some of my friends are against it, my whole family is against it, and they argue with me each time the topic arises. They always end up losing, imo. They state opinions and theories, I state facts :x

NurseBarbra
May 22nd, 2011, 10:51 AM
Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?

They know, some of my friends are against it, my whole family is against it, and they argue with me each time the topic arises. They always end up losing, imo. They state opinions and theories, I state facts :x

I'm guessing they're christian so..Have you ever argued that MOST of the bible contridicts itself? Like, seriousally, There are parts which PROMOTE SLAVERY AND SEXISM. Not very christian is it?

G.U.Y.
May 22nd, 2011, 11:11 AM
I'm guessing they're christian so..Have you ever argued that MOST of the bible contridicts itself? Like, seriousally, There are parts which PROMOTE SLAVERY AND SEXISM. Not very christian is it?

The bible itself was written by man, not God. And man at that time did promote slavery and sexism, if God existed, and God really did have man write that, 99% of it would be things they added into it, and not what God wanted.

This is why Christianity (and all other religions) have been poisoned by man.

NurseBarbra
May 22nd, 2011, 11:25 AM
The bible itself was written by man, not God. And man at that time did promote slavery and sexism, if God existed, and God really did have man write that, 99% of it would be things they added into it, and not what God wanted.

This is why Christianity (and all other religions) have been poisoned by man.

This is also how people make religion out to be anything they want, They mold it to their own intentions.

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 11:37 AM
I'm guessing they're christian so..Have you ever argued that MOST of the bible contridicts itself? Like, seriousally, There are parts which PROMOTE SLAVERY AND SEXISM. Not very christian is it?
They're not Christian XD

They're Hindu, and they firmly believe in all the religious aspects of it, which is quite annoying sometimes.

Digimon Kaiser
May 22nd, 2011, 12:51 PM
Personally, I think Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, etc., were real people, but were just normal men with nothing beyond the ordinary about them.
Anybody disagree here?

NurseBarbra
May 22nd, 2011, 01:30 PM
They're not Christian XD

They're Hindu, and they firmly believe in all the religious aspects of it, which is quite annoying sometimes.

So basically they're blind to all reasoning? Intresting... (Not really, I know a guy like that so I just avoid him...)

Naruto Uzumaki
May 22nd, 2011, 01:35 PM
Personally, I think Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, etc., were real people, but were just normal men with nothing beyond the ordinary about them.
Anybody disagree here?
I agree.

After the story being told for so man years, they all have seemed to be exaggerated.


@Nurse: Yes they are. :/

FrostPheonix
May 24th, 2011, 10:15 AM
Well, hello people!

I'm christian. I admit it openly. I am actually here for a good debate, since all the idiots i try.... dont exist. Meh. no one for me to debate seemed to be there.

I was raised christian. My family is christian. etc.

I'm not sure im here to join, but I would like to point out a few things in you guys' talk.


I'm guessing they're christian so..Have you ever argued that MOST of the bible contridicts itself? Like, seriousally, There are parts which PROMOTE SLAVERY AND SEXISM. Not very christian is it?

Could you list a few passages?
I know of one passage about slavery, and that is philemon. But, I am quite sure the slavery refered to is the type of prisoner-of-war. They had a lot of war etc at the time. The Bible does not support racism. I am not aware where it promotes sexism tho....




The bible itself was written by man, not God. And man at that time did promote slavery and sexism, if God existed, and God really did have man write that, 99% of it would be things they added into it, and not what God wanted.

This is why Christianity (and all other religions) have been poisoned by man.
According to the Bible, God actually wrote the Bible himself. Only, he did it through prophets who wrote it down for him. Kinda like scribes.




Personally, I think Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham, Buddha, etc., were real people, but were just normal men with nothing beyond the ordinary about them.
Anybody disagree here?
They were normal men alright. But men guided by God. At least, IMO. Except Jesus, we beleive he was the son of God.

o: People!

So, everyone, what did you do during the rapture?
I hate the man who said the rapture shall happen on May 21, 2011. Or October 21, 2011 as he now says. He just made my life harder...


OK to just talk here as a christian, right? You can have both sides of the topic! lol.

Merzbau
May 25th, 2011, 12:26 AM
To be honest, I think a lot of atheists started out Christian. I, myself, started out very heavily Christian - in fact, I hated everybody who wasn't Christian, almost. I was an ignorant little twit when I was about 13. Just an angry little tyke, I suppose. In my experience, I've found that religion, especially holy books, are usually the best tools to use to turn people into atheists...you know, because that's the goal, conversion.

Naruto Uzumaki
May 25th, 2011, 03:27 PM
If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?

I'm guessing it would be more of a 'spirit' force kind of thing. I'm not to sure how to explain it, but I have a feeling that it wouldn't really be in a human shape. Possibly more like an ancient spirit that can control the world at whim. But, that's just my opinion.

Sodom
May 25th, 2011, 04:26 PM
To be honest, I think a lot of atheists started out Christian. I, myself, started out very heavily Christian - in fact, I hated everybody who wasn't Christian, almost. I was an ignorant little twit when I was about 13. Just an angry little tyke, I suppose. In my experience, I've found that religion, especially holy books, are usually the best tools to use to turn people into atheists...you know, because that's the goal, conversion.

I wouldn't necessarily say that conversion is the goal, but living a life in fear of something that was never there is no way to live a life, and if I can help even one person to be see that, and be happier because of it, then my life has had some purpose.

I agree that the books, the core of the religion, if people read them with open eyes rather than blind faith, are the best ways to make an atheist out of a religious person. It's funny in a way, you exit a religion in the same way you enter it - through the books lol

Naruto Uzumaki
May 26th, 2011, 05:13 AM
What are your family's general religious beliefs?

Well, my whole blood related family is Hindu. They strongly believe everything or most of what the gita (Hindu bible) says and they tried to raise me to do the same. But sadly, (according to them) I'm just a kid who is under knowledged and I'll grow up to be Hindu again :x

HarrisonH
May 26th, 2011, 10:59 PM
Could you list a few passages?
I know of one passage about slavery, and that is philemon. But, I am quite sure the slavery refered to is the type of prisoner-of-war. They had a lot of war etc at the time. The Bible does not support racism. I am not aware where it promotes sexism tho....

Contradictions as to who Joseph's father is: Matthew 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:16&version=NIV), Luke 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:23&version=NIV)
Contradictions as to who found the empty tomb: Matthew 28:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1&version=NIV), Mark 16:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1&version=NIV), John 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1&version=NIV)
Those are just a few examples, go here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html) for more.

As for the "prisoner of war" type slavery you think it is, where have you ever read anything about prisoners of war being sold and bought?
Slaves as property: Leviticus 25:44-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:44-46&version=NIV)
Hebrew slaves: Exodus 21:2-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:2-6&version=NIV)
Selling daughters as slaves: Exodus 21:7-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:7-11&version=NIV)
Beating slaves: Exodus 21:20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NIV)

Sexism in the bible, oh so much
1 Corinthians 11:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011:3&version=NIV)
1 Corinthians 11:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011:7-9&version=NIV)
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:34-35&version=NIV)
Ephesians 5:22-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:22-25&version=NIV)
Colossians 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:18&version=NIV)
1 Timothy 2:9-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:9-15&version=NIV)
Romans 7:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:2&version=NIV)
Titus 2:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:3-5&version=NIV)
And so on.


According to the Bible, God actually wrote the Bible himself. Only, he did it through prophets who wrote it down for him. Kinda like scribes.

Cool. According to Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, it was written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship. That doesn't mean it was actually written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship.

FrostPheonix
May 27th, 2011, 09:41 AM
Contradictions as to who Joseph's father is: Matthew 1:16 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:16&version=NIV), Luke 3:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%203:23&version=NIV)
Contradictions as to who found the empty tomb: Matthew 28:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1&version=NIV), Mark 16:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1&version=NIV), John 20:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1&version=NIV)
Those are just a few examples, go here (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html) for more.

As for the "prisoner of war" type slavery you think it is, where have you ever read anything about prisoners of war being sold and bought?
Slaves as property: Leviticus 25:44-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:44-46&version=NIV)
Hebrew slaves: Exodus 21:2-6 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:2-6&version=NIV)
Selling daughters as slaves: Exodus 21:7-11 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:7-11&version=NIV)
Beating slaves: Exodus 21:20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NIV)

Sexism in the bible, oh so much
1 Corinthians 11:3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011:3&version=NIV)
1 Corinthians 11:7-9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2011:7-9&version=NIV)
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:34-35&version=NIV)
Ephesians 5:22-25 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%205:22-25&version=NIV)
Colossians 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%203:18&version=NIV)
1 Timothy 2:9-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:9-15&version=NIV)
Romans 7:2 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207:2&version=NIV)
Titus 2:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%202:3-5&version=NIV)
And so on.


Cool. According to Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr, it was written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship. That doesn't mean it was actually written by the ghost of a man who died while building a ship.

The contradictions of Joseph leave me astounded. Sorry, no answer to that. As to mary, they all say she went to the tomb, its just they give various tidbits as to why. It was Mary Magdalene who went, along with the two other women. Why two books fail to mention the two other women I have no idea, but Mary Magdalene is undoubtly said to have went to the tomb.

Example of Prisoner-of-War slavery would be in Africa. Europeans didn't actually go and catch slaves, rather, they bought them off of Kings who sold them war-captives from various skirmishes.

Sexism in the Bible:
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

It is saying that the woman is undoubtly below the man. Its just the natural order of things. The woman came from man, if you believe the Bible that is. Also, about the passage in corinthians (in spoiler), it is saying that Husbands should love their wives and look after them as if they were their own body. It does not just say that wives should submit. Dont stop midverse. In a marriage, the spouses should both look to God, and love him, and also love each other.

If you call that sexism, sorry, thats how its written. Not that women should be meek and do nothing, but that they should submit to the husband and not get above them, or in other words take over the marriage by making important decisions. Similarily, the husband is to take counsel from the woman, and they are to act as a team, but the ultimate decision comes down to the man.

Some slave laws that were in the old testament are no longer in effect. We don't sacrifice lambs anymore, similarily slave laws don't really apply anymore. That would have been Judaism, I think. And in the occasion of having slaves, you are to treat them as humanly as possible.

HarrisonH
May 27th, 2011, 10:25 AM
The contradictions of Joseph leave me astounded. Sorry, no answer to that. As to mary, they all say she went to the tomb, its just they give various tidbits as to why. It was Mary Magdalene who went, along with the two other women. Why two books fail to mention the two other women I have no idea, but Mary Magdalene is undoubtly said to have went to the tomb.

While they do all say that Magdalene went, they disagree as to who she went with and why. Additionally, if we expand to the following verses, they all disagree on what happened after the tomb was visited.

Matthew 28:1-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1-10&version=NIV): Mary Magdalene and the other Mary go to the tomb. An earthquake happens as a angel comes down. The angel scares the guards away, rolls the stone to the side, and proceeds to sit on it. The angel speaks to the women, who then run away. Jesus appears to them as they flee.

John 20:1-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1-10&version=NIV): Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. Upon seeing that it has been opened, she runs and tells Simon Peter and "the other disciple". Peter and the other disciple run to the tomb. The other disciple arrives first, but stays outside looking at linens. Peter goes in and observes more linens, and soon the other disciple follows.

Mark 16:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1-8&version=NIV): Mary Magdalene, Mary, and Salome go to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. Upon arrival, they see that the tomb has been opened. They walk in, and see a man in white sitting off to the side, who tells them that Jesus has risen. The women all flee, and speak to no one.


Example of Prisoner-of-War slavery would be in Africa. Europeans didn't actually go and catch slaves, rather, they bought them off of Kings who sold them war-captives from various skirmishes.

It's no longer prisoner of war slavery once they are sold from the kings. From then on they are just normal slaves. And even then, why does that make slavery okay? Hint: It doesn't.



It is saying that the woman is undoubtly below the man. Its just the natural order of things.

That's pretty blatant sexism. There is no way you can argue that it isn't.


The woman came from man, if you believe the Bible that is. Also, about the passage in corinthians (in spoiler), it is saying that Husbands should love their wives and look after them as if they were their own body. It does not just say that wives should submit. Dont stop midverse. In a marriage, the spouses should both look to God, and love him, and also love each other.

And is also says again that "the husband is the head of the wife". That is still sexism, even if it's followed by saying that they love each other.

What do you have to say about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:34-35&version=NIV)? "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
1 Timothy 2:9-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:9-15&version=NIV)? "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." That's the main juicy part. Again, submission for being lesser than men. Again, blatant sexism.


If you call that sexism, sorry, thats how its written. Not that women should be meek and do nothing, but that they should submit to the husband and not get above them, or in other words take over the marriage by making important decisions. Similarily, the husband is to take counsel from the woman, and they are to act as a team, but the ultimate decision comes down to the man.

I don't call that sexism; That IS sexism. It's absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not the Bible says that men should love their wives, the fact is that the Bible continually stresses that women should also submit and be lesser than the men. That is sexism.



Some slave laws that were in the old testament are no longer in effect. We don't sacrifice lambs anymore, similarily slave laws don't really apply anymore. That would have been Judaism, I think. And in the occasion of having slaves, you are to treat them as humanly as possible.
One would hope that all slave laws in any book were no longer in effect. Where does the Bible say to "treat them humanly"? It says to treat them as property (Leviticus 25:44-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:44-46&version=NIV)).

Additionally, how can you argue that Exodus 21:20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NIV) is in any way humane? "Oh yeah, you can beat them as much as you want. Just don't kill them!"

Gymnotide
May 27th, 2011, 11:01 AM
I feel like this thread will... Eventually turn into a church for atheists on PC (which is kind of inappropriate seeing as how atheism isn't a religion). Can we not let that happen, please?

I'm also offended that Darwin is being associated with atheism. If I had to introduce myself, I'm an evolutionist and evolutionary theorist (yeah, there's a difference). As I've expressed countless times in my writing, evolution and religion have nothing to do with each other, are neither opposites nor even in the same sphere of thought. While Evolutionary Theory is a parallel to Creationism (which is often backed by religious individuals), it by no means refutes or is refuted by any religious principle. Regardless, Evolutionary Theory is different from evolution--you can't "believe" in evolution because it's not something you /can/ believe in... It's like saying "I believe blue."

But honestly, this is the one thing that pisses me off the most. You don't need to be an atheist to know evolution occurs, nor should evolution ever be associated with the atheist philosophy.

Also, http://www.godlessquotes.com/ -- some pretty strong quotes there, but a lot take unnecessary stabs.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Yes, pro-choice, and circumstantial. I'm not going in-depth about these because my reasonings are far beyond anything religion-based or otherwise.
Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Religion doesn't make any sense to me. I like the moral aspect of it, but everything else is completely absurd to me. I'm a skeptic. How can something portray itself as good when it propagates so much hatred? Religion has persecuted many of my personal beliefs in the past and I've grown far from agnostic due to that. Sure, not all religions are alike, nor are all religious people extremists, but I feel like things would have turned out different if religion never existed.
Do you believe in any form of life after death?
No, but I want there to be... Just to see what it's like.
Do you believe in aliens?
Potentially. The chances of extraterrestrial lifeforms on other planets isn't zero, but it's infinitesimally small (if we're going by abiogenesis, that is).
Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
My friends know that I am a staunch atheist, but that doesn't mean I'm an imposer. My family is generally too lazy to have a religion, though most of them are Buddhist superstitious.
If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I'm sort of offended that God is capitalized in that question. Anyway, if a god or gods existed, I'm sure that they would be imperceivable by human beings. After all, human perception is far from perfect--we can't see what shrimp see, smell what sharks smell, etc. If a god is omnipotent, then it makes sense that it is on a level that makes it truly transcend its... Underlings?

Sodom
May 28th, 2011, 06:10 AM
I feel like this thread will... Eventually turn into a church for atheists on PC (which is kind of inappropriate seeing as how atheism isn't a religion). Can we not let that happen, please?

I'm also offended that Darwin is being associated with atheism. If I had to introduce myself, I'm an evolutionist and evolutionary theorist (yeah, there's a difference). As I've expressed countless times in my writing, evolution and religion have nothing to do with each other, are neither opposites nor even in the same sphere of thought. While Evolutionary Theory is a parallel to Creationism (which is often backed by religious individuals), it by no means refutes or is refuted by any religious principle. Regardless, Evolutionary Theory is different from evolution--you can't "believe" in evolution because it's not something you /can/ believe in... It's like saying "I believe blue."

But honestly, this is the one thing that pisses me off the most. You don't need to be an atheist to know evolution occurs, nor should evolution ever be associated with the atheist philosophy.



"A church for atheists" is kind of the idea. Non-atheists are welcomed to join and contribute to the discussion, but at the core, this is a group of people who don't believe in God and who have come together to talk about that.

Darwin and evolutionary theory may not have been intended to refute religion, but that does not put them in separate spheres of thought. They have been brought together for a reason, and that reason is that a lot of religious people do reject the concept of evolution because it's inconsistent with creation theory. I agree that evolution is common sense and the volume of evidence for it makes it not something one has the option whether or not to believe in, but lol, some people still don't.

Also - "I believe blue." - I lol'd :P

AND also - 500th post woo! XD

Gymnotide
May 29th, 2011, 12:06 AM
"A church for atheists" is kind of the idea. Non-atheists are welcomed to join and contribute to the discussion, but at the core, this is a group of people who don't believe in God and who have come together to talk about that.

Darwin and evolutionary theory may not have been intended to refute religion, but that does not put them in separate spheres of thought. They have been brought together for a reason, and that reason is that a lot of religious people do reject the concept of evolution because it's inconsistent with creation theory. I agree that evolution is common sense and the volume of evidence for it makes it not something one has the option whether or not to believe in, but lol, some people still don't.

Also - "I believe blue." - I lol'd :P

AND also - 500th post woo! XD

My point was that being a "church" is inappropriate because atheism isn't a religion... 'Cause it's an anti-religion.

Only fundamentalists reject evolution--evolution is merely a process, not the way the process occurs. It's irrefutable that change occurs in species. The only argument you can make is denying it occurs without any grounds, which is the fundamentalist viewpoint. Also, to note Evolutionary Theory is a completely different thing. It describes how and why evolution occurs.

My point, though, was that evolution can still be a religious force (i.e. God uses evolution to spur creation). Creationism and evolution aren't in the same sphere. Evolution isn't about the creation of life, but its change. You can be Creationist and evolutionist too (but not Creationist and Evolutionary Theorist).

Furthermore, Evolutionary Theory, as expressed in the thread's titular Darwin fish image, while the opposite of Creationism, isn't an atheistic concept. Sure, radical Creationists or Bible fundamentalists may oppose it, but that doesn't mean ET itself goes against religion (as atheism does). I know quite a few religious individuals who fully understand evolution (and believe Evolutionary Theory).

Yes, evolution is pseudo-atheistic to certain radical individuals, and Evolutionary Theory even more so. However, that doesn't make it something that should be associated with atheism.

It's a fine line to draw, I know... But it's also one that needs to be expressed... For the sake of evolutionists.

'Grats on 500 :)

FrostPheonix
May 31st, 2011, 10:02 AM
While they do all say that Magdalene went, they disagree as to who she went with and why. Additionally, if we expand to the following verses, they all disagree on what happened after the tomb was visited.

Matthew 28:1-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2028:1-10&version=NIV): Mary Magdalene and the other Mary go to the tomb. An earthquake happens as a angel comes down. The angel scares the guards away, rolls the stone to the side, and proceeds to sit on it. The angel speaks to the women, who then run away. Jesus appears to them as they flee.

John 20:1-10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:1-10&version=NIV): Only Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb. Upon seeing that it has been opened, she runs and tells Simon Peter and "the other disciple". Peter and the other disciple run to the tomb. The other disciple arrives first, but stays outside looking at linens. Peter goes in and observes more linens, and soon the other disciple follows.

Mark 16:1-8 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016:1-8&version=NIV): Mary Magdalene, Mary, and Salome go to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. Upon arrival, they see that the tomb has been opened. They walk in, and see a man in white sitting off to the side, who tells them that Jesus has risen. The women all flee, and speak to no one.


It's no longer prisoner of war slavery once they are sold from the kings. From then on they are just normal slaves. And even then, why does that make slavery okay? Hint: It doesn't.



That's pretty blatant sexism. There is no way you can argue that it isn't.


And is also says again that "the husband is the head of the wife". That is still sexism, even if it's followed by saying that they love each other.

What do you have to say about 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2014:34-35&version=NIV)? "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
1 Timothy 2:9-15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:9-15&version=NIV)? "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner." That's the main juicy part. Again, submission for being lesser than men. Again, blatant sexism.


I don't call that sexism; That IS sexism. It's absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not the Bible says that men should love their wives, the fact is that the Bible continually stresses that women should also submit and be lesser than the men. That is sexism.



One would hope that all slave laws in any book were no longer in effect. Where does the Bible say to "treat them humanly"? It says to treat them as property (Leviticus 25:44-46 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:44-46&version=NIV)).

Additionally, how can you argue that Exodus 21:20-21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2021:20-21&version=NIV) is in any way humane? "Oh yeah, you can beat them as much as you want. Just don't kill them!"


lol, some parts for some reason made me laugh. no idea y tho ^^.

Ok, first part:
The part about woman not talking in church, and to keep quiet: you have to keep this in context. It is saying that women are not to take part in the deciphering of prophecies. For reasons unknown to me, it is the male members of the congregation that are to try and make sense of the prophecy.

When it says that the woman does not have permission to be in authority over the man, it is meaning in the church. Women are not to teach men in the about the bible. Not that women are not to become president etc. Its not talking about secular positions such as teachers or president; its talking about positions in the church.

And yes, you might take it as sexism, we take it as the Bible. It is NOT irrevelant that husbands should love their wives; if that is true, the power given to them over the woman will not be misused. Bringing no real harm for the woman. The woman still has a lot of power in the household; in case you don't know, women can manipulate men to do their bidding. No offense meant to any girls here, but women do manipulate men actively. not that they should though.

Slave laws were really only there because the Isrealites, the people to whom God gave the law, wanted them (slaves). Similarily, the Isrealites got a king only because they begged God for one, even if he said they don't need one and shouldn't get one. It eventually leads to their downfall, with bad kings of Israel and Judah leading to the kingdoms being razed and captured by the Assyrians and Babylonians, I think.



Sorry that I took so long to post a reply, I needed time plus I needed some help from some other christians I knew to answer them. Since I have exams next week, I might not reply as soon next time.

Åzurε
May 31st, 2011, 10:38 AM
I'd like to clarify something. Don't get antsy though, I'm just passing through.

For now.

Joseph's genealogy: to my understanding, Heli was Mary's father, and Joseph's father-in-law. Jacob was his literal father. As you may have realized, Jews had a very patriarchal culture, so this would have made good sense to them.

Keep on with it, Frosty. Nice to see another debate-inclined Jesus Freak around here! Visit Other Chat sometime, we'll have a ball.

FrostPheonix
May 31st, 2011, 11:24 AM
I'd like to clarify something. Don't get antsy though, I'm just passing through.

For now.

Joseph's genealogy: to my understanding, Heli was Mary's father, and Joseph's father-in-law. Jacob was his literal father. As you may have realized, Jews had a very patriarchal culture, so this would have made good sense to them.

Keep on with it, Frosty. Nice to see another debate-inclined Jesus Freak around here! Visit Other Chat sometime, we'll have a ball.

Yeah, the explanation makes sense.

Nice to hear that someone supports me, hope to see you around!

NurseBarbra
May 31st, 2011, 01:50 PM
Slave laws were really only there because the Isrealites, the people to whom God gave the law, wanted them (slaves). Similarily, the Isrealites got a king only because they begged God for one, even if he said they don't need one and shouldn't get one. It eventually leads to their downfall, with bad kings of Israel and Judah leading to the kingdoms being razed and captured by the Assyrians and Babylonians, I think.


What ever happened to threating eachother as you wish to be treated.. Wait... Did all the Isrealites wish to be treated as slaves?
That's just further proof that religion can be bent to a person's individual desires.
(I like this thread.I normally don't get this much intelligent conversation in a month , let alone a day.)

And I think we strayed off topic a SLIGHT bit... So... NEW TOPIC!

If you could create on creature, based on evolution, what would it look like, where would it live, and what would it's value be to the world?

Gymnotide
May 31st, 2011, 07:04 PM
What ever happened to threating eachother as you wish to be treated.. Wait... Did all the Isrealites wish to be treated as slaves?
That's just further proof that religion can be bent to a person's individual desires.
(I like this thread.I normally don't get this much intelligent conversation in a month , let alone a day.)

And I think we strayed off topic a SLIGHT bit... So... NEW TOPIC!

If you could create on creature, based on evolution, what would it look like, where would it live, and what would it's value be to the world?

Honestly, I wouldn't change a thing. With the immense diversity we have now, every species on Earth as of now is an evolutionary titan. We have komodo dragons that intentionally infect their mouths to gangrene to make them deadlier predators to sea slugs that can turn themselves photosynthetic by stealing chloroplasts from plants. Axolotls stay infant forever because it grants them regeneration and underwater breathing. Some creatures can break their own bones and use them as weapons while others can speak telepathically using pheromones.

I don't think I can do any better than nature.

Timbjerr
May 31st, 2011, 07:16 PM
I'm just here to point out that nitpicking the Bible to disprove Christianity is pure fallacy. The gospels themselves were scribed several generations after Jesus had died by four evangelists from different corners of the known world at the time. Several generations of verbal tradition will make awkward inconsistencies. The important thing is to get the general theme of a passage, not the details.

In addition, every book in the Bible was written, edited, and compiled by imperfect men and translated and re-translated more times than anyone can tell. It's hardly worthy of being labelled "the absolute word of God" anymore...

...but that doesn't disprove anything. It's all human error. This just means that Christians and other theists in general have to find their own way to God rather than put too much faith in their books.

Gumball Watterson
May 31st, 2011, 08:06 PM
I will start by saying that I was raised Roman Catholic, but very loosely. And I independently decided on the thinking of an Agnostic. Also loosely, so the proper definition would be that I simply do not pay attention to what is not in the material world.

I believe all religions are flawed. People were killed over the beliefs of others throughout history. The source of all this was ignorance. Scary how we still see so much ignorance today, isn't it? I can just smell the World War III within my lifetime.

Socrates said: "There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance."

I'm just barely beginning studies in philosophy, and yet I feel like a lot of things are and will become clear to me. Faith is not Knowledge. And if Socrates's words are words to live by, then Faith is not good.

As I said, people killed over their believes- over their faiths- in the past because people were ignorant. So the cause of the spread of one's faith was ignorance. Ignorance being evil, the concept of faith itself should be evil.

And even today, Faith still has elements of that evil as a result of ignorance, the ignorance towards the truth because one is preoccupied with emotions in the immaterial/supernatural. We do not know anything about the immaterial. So there is no good in faith, and faith is based on the evil of mankind.

Ignorance could also mean being blind to the concept of merely seeking the truth. 'Extremist' Christians do not seek knowing the truth, they merely believe blindly. To know means to justify and prove that belief. But of course it's not always a Christian's fault that he is Christian, for the ignorance of the parents is forever imprinted into the wet concrete of a child.

And maybe... that's the greatest evil of all: To forever imprint your ignorance on youth.


I also have to say something about extreme Atheists. These people claim to 'know' there is no God. But that is of course philosophically wrong, because you can't prove there is no God just like you can't prove there is one. By being Agnostic, you refuse to know that God does or does not exist. You might believe, given you can distinguish between belief and knowledge, one or the other. But I also refuse to pass judgment on what I believe.

I believe the bible was written by ordinary men. We don't know if there is a God. So we might not know that the bible is the 'Word of God'. However, it is more reasonable to believe it simply isn't. By claiming the bible is the Word of God, we must assume that God exists. If we claim the bible is not the Word of God, we do not necessarily claim that there is no God, but simply that the book people place so much faith in is just a collection of stories meant to provide moral guidelines, and nothing more.

I also believe people should live a life with two objectives: The avoidance of pain for oneself and others, and the seeking of truth. That is all. I do not believe I need a set of moral guidelines. I can form my own morals from what I can deduce from the truth.

Gymnotide
May 31st, 2011, 09:28 PM
Can we ban talking about loopholes in the Bible and other religious texts? They aren't conducive to positive discussion and only perpetuate unresolvable quarrels on the grounds that "things can be interpreted differently". After all, this is atheism club, not disprove religion club. There's a slight difference.

Atheism isn't the rejection of religion; it's the rejection that there are deities, hence a + theos from Classical Greek.
Are there any atheistic Buddhists or Hindus here? :)

HarrisonH
June 1st, 2011, 09:23 PM
I also have to say something about extreme Atheists. These people claim to 'know' there is no God. But that is of course philosophically wrong, because you can't prove there is no God just like you can't prove there is one. By being Agnostic, you refuse to know that God does or does not exist. You might believe, given you can distinguish between belief and knowledge, one or the other.


This is a rather common misconception. Agnosticism is not the middle ground between atheism and theism. Agnostic and gnostic have only to do with knowledge of anything, not exclusively the belief in gods. Agnosticism is not knowing for certain, gnosticism is knowing for certain.

Examples:
Agnostic Theist - "I don't think we can know if there's a god or not, but I choose to believe in one"
Agnostic Atheist - "I don't think we can know if there's a god or not, but I don't think there is."
Gnostic Theist - "I know for certain that there is a God."
Gnostic Atheist - "I know for certain that there is no god."

That's just the simplest way to put it. If you want to see the differences more in-depth, see this infographic. (http://i.imgur.com/xXuNC.jpg).


Now, for a question a bit more meaningful:
What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/hjd7p/we_are_jessica_ahlquist_damon_fowler_and_harrison/)?

FrostPheonix
June 2nd, 2011, 02:37 AM
I guess it is good that they are upholding the law, but why are they making such a wind about a simple prayer? I mean, its kinda against the law, but its abt a minute. Whats so bad about that?

NurseBarbra
June 2nd, 2011, 06:51 AM
I guess it is good that they are upholding the law, but why are they making such a wind about a simple prayer? I mean, its kinda against the law, but its abt a minute. Whats so bad about that?

Unfortunatally, People just can't learn to shut up for all of 5 minutes. Like seriousally, Why can't they just listen to the view point, weigh it objectivally, and then make a rational decision. Just because they don't like a prayer banner, doesn't mean they should go on a warpath. What ever happened to just ignoring the matter for the greater good, It's not like the poster dramatically changes their life so much that they can't live anymore...

(Yes, It's amazing, The one time that I actually DEFEND religion... It burns to think about it let alone do it.....)

Gymnotide
June 2nd, 2011, 02:29 PM
Now, for a question a bit more meaningful:
What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/hjd7p/we_are_jessica_ahlquist_damon_fowler_and_harrison/)?

Radicalism is the bane of rationality.

G.U.Y.
June 3rd, 2011, 07:50 AM
What do you think of student atheist activists such as these three (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/hjd7p/we_are_jessica_ahlquist_damon_fowler_and_harrison/)?

Hurray for fighting against hypocrisy in the law!

Freedom of Religion also gives you the freedom from Religion. Schools doing that shouldn't be allowed.

Sonicspeed500
June 4th, 2011, 02:06 PM
An atheist thread? Should I be excited or scared?
I am so sick of all the Atheists I've known that completely dumbfound the world around them with stuff that really doesn't make any sense. It's as if people want to rule out something they know nothing about, simply out of spite. They take things a bit too literally and stretch the meaning a bit too far. There is no effort to obtain it, no true research given into it's study. (Jurassic Park anybody?)

Atheists seem to be only driven by PROOF of things (and if you aren't, maybe you should change how you talk about it to other people O.o). Why believe a God is real if you have no proof? You have to agree with that. In reality, it may seem to make sense, but we humans have such narrow concepts and visions of time and space that we don't even truly know the half of it. Just as the world was once thought of as flat, the big bang theory now is seen as false by the scientific community that started it. The news media is constantly bringing up new results that certain foods like Wine and Apples are good for you or bad for you.

If you want to actually PROVE something wrong, do some full research on it, don't just pick other peoples junk up. Before I finish however, I will say that I am a Christian, and I am Horrified at the world today. I'm not outlandishly attacking you Atheists (this seemed like the right place for my rant), but other churches seriously scare the daylights out of me. Despite what they preach, it's a whole new world in their real life. What they live and what they teach are entirely different. When other people see this, I don't blame them for feeling lied to.

If anyone even dares to attack me (lol), please at least read my entire post before assaulting me. lol I have no problem with a debate, but I didn't come here to fight. Atheists are just perceived as a hate group when I'm attacked so blatantly. If you don't believe in God, I won't attempt to force you to love Jesus. Just know that not all Christians are your enemy. Most Christians would love to spit on you, but they don't even follow their own word in that case (which, honestly, makes me sick). The Bible says I should love my enemies unconditionally. I'm not your friend, (maybe yet) And im not perfect, but I will honor that I believe you are from the same creation as me. So yeah... It's pretty bad that I can't even go to a church without feeling a bit disgusted with how gloated some people are, or how hypocritical some others are. Some people are just sue-happy "I love you cause youre a fellow christian, but I dont want to touch or hug you if you payed me a hundred bucks". :/


Also on a different note...
Not trying to stir up too much ruckus...
Atheism is an absent belief in a deity or religion... soooo you are against it...




AROOOOLNUMBATWO
http://www.i-dressup.cm/aladdin_and_genie.jpg
No "anti" clubs.
Let's keep everything positive here. No clubs that are against anything.

....jus sayin'

Gymnotide
June 4th, 2011, 11:03 PM
An atheist thread? Should I be excited or scared?
I am so sick of all the Atheists I've known that completely dumbfound the world around them with stuff that really doesn't make any sense. It's as if people want to rule out something they know nothing about, simply out of spite. They take things a bit too literally and stretch the meaning a bit too far. There is no effort to obtain it, no true research given into it's study. (Jurassic Park anybody?)

Atheists seem to be only driven by PROOF of things (and if you aren't, maybe you should change how you talk about it to other people O.o). Why believe a God is real if you have no proof? You have to agree with that. In reality, it may seem to make sense, but we humans have such narrow concepts and visions of time and space that we don't even truly know the half of it. Just as the world was once thought of as flat, the big bang theory now is seen as false by the scientific community that started it. The news media is constantly bringing up new results that certain foods like Wine and Apples are good for you or bad for you.

If you want to actually PROVE something wrong, do some full research on it, don't just pick other peoples junk up. Before I finish however, I will say that I am a Christian, and I am Horrified at the world today. I'm not outlandishly attacking you Atheists (this seemed like the right place for my rant), but other churches seriously scare the daylights out of me. Despite what they preach, it's a whole new world in their real life. What they live and what they teach are entirely different. When other people see this, I don't blame them for feeling lied to.

If anyone even dares to attack me (lol), please at least read my entire post before assaulting me. lol I have no problem with a debate, but I didn't come here to fight. Atheists are just perceived as a hate group when I'm attacked so blatantly. If you don't believe in God, I won't attempt to force you to love Jesus. Just know that not all Christians are your enemy. Most Christians would love to spit on you, but they don't even follow their own word in that case (which, honestly, makes me sick). The Bible says I should love my enemies unconditionally. I'm not your friend, (maybe yet) And im not perfect, but I will honor that I believe you are from the same creation as me. So yeah... It's pretty bad that I can't even go to a church without feeling a bit disgusted with how gloated some people are, or how hypocritical some others are. Some people are just sue-happy "I love you cause youre a fellow christian, but I dont want to touch or hug you if you payed me a hundred bucks". :/


Also on a different note...
Not trying to stir up too much ruckus...
Atheism is an absent belief in a deity or religion... soooo you are against it...




AROOOOLNUMBATWO
http://www.i-dressup.cm/aladdin_and_genie.jpg
No "anti" clubs.
Let's keep everything positive here. No clubs that are against anything.

....jus sayin'

I'll respond to your post properly another time.

You're wrong though. Atheism is definitely not the rejection of religion. It's only the god part. Not all religions have gods.

Also, common misconception... No one except Columbus' expedition thought the world was flat. The Greeks and Egyptians proved that the world was round ages before that era. The Muslims, Andalusians, and alchemists proved this even more later on. In fact, even the Norse have evidence in their literature and artifacts that they knew the shape of the Earth too. The world being round was widely accepted even as Columbus tried to prove otherwise.

Finally, it's not the fact that the scientific community believes the Big Bang is untrue, but rather that they have reformulated their theory from an actual "bang" to a slower, Big "Collapse." It still functions the same way as the Big Bang Theory, only the perception of it is different.

Not trying to be rude, but please ground your examples :/

NurseBarbra
June 5th, 2011, 08:26 AM
Also on a different note...
Not trying to stir up too much ruckus...
Atheism is an absent belief in a deity or religion... soooo you are against it...




AROOOOLNUMBATWO
http://www.i-dressup.cm/aladdin_and_genie.jpg
No "anti" clubs.
Let's keep everything positive here. No clubs that are against anything.

....jus sayin'

No.
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism,which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.No "Anti" Clubs means that we can't make a "Jewish beliefs only club. No Christians allowed" club and such. But the AA is a free to join club, no matter what you believe in, As we aren't snobby one faced deaf idiots who don't listen to a matter, weight the choices and decide with good judgement. We haven't said anywhere that we were ANTI- anything. Kthxzbai~

EDIT:
v/wZjtXzbRN98

It's SO ADORABLE YET SO SAD.... ; _____ ;

Sonicspeed500
June 5th, 2011, 09:30 AM
Please do not attack me with a blatant response if you didn't read it.
If you got irritated from my response, please cool down first.
The Rule about the anti clubs is exactly about controversial matters because they tend to become out of hand.
Like i said, I have no problem with this thread, I'm just commenting, and I was looking for a member of the thread to have a bold and artistic conversation about.


You're wrong though. Atheism is definitely not the rejection of religion. It's only the god part. Not all religions have gods.

Well thanks for making me feel bad, you know, because I said exactly that.
If you did post properly you would've seen that:

Atheism is an absent belief in a deity

Next time, take your time to post please...
I put the religion as an "or" because I have met Atheists that consider it that way.
I never said Atheism was specifically the rejection of religion (which you are right about, it's not always.)

Not trying to be rude, but please ground your examples :/

I never provided any examples you silly :p
This was merely meant to be a sophisticated talk, not a college essay.
There is a difference between speaking from wisdom and from fact.
And i did ask to take your time to respond to me because I wanted us all to think, not to post quickly.

As we aren't snobby one faced deaf idiots who don't listen to a matter

LOL Yeah, I never said you were. I'm not that mean. lol

And about the world flat and all that,
My misconceptions are noted, as I did not know that. Hence, the reason I posted! A-ha!

Now... to change the subject back to what I was talking about...
What do you guys think about Time and Space though? Do you guys suspect that maybe in a different universe there lies a God of some kind? a being with the abilities to warp time? Such a thing could be seen as God-like to our human existance.

Gumball Watterson
June 5th, 2011, 06:48 PM
Now... to change the subject back to what I was talking about...
What do you guys think about Time and Space though? Do you guys suspect that maybe in a different universe there lies a God of some kind? a being with the abilities to warp time? Such a thing could be seen as God-like to our human existance.

I'm personally into string theory. Which means that outside our universe are parallel universes with ALL possibilities and ALL outcomes with ALL possible paths and ALL possible beginnings and endings. [This means there's a universe somewhere out there where a cupcake can suddenly pop into your hand at random]

Of course, it's just a theory. But I believe it's a good concept.

NurseBarbra
June 6th, 2011, 06:41 AM
[This means there's a universe somewhere out there where a cupcake can suddenly pop into your hand at random]
Does that also mean that there is a universe where you can GROW food such as pizza and Ice-cream? Bacon tree anyone?

Gymnotide
June 6th, 2011, 02:58 PM
Well thanks for making me feel bad, you know, because I said exactly that.
If you did post properly you would've seen that:

Next time, take your time to post please...
I put the religion as an "or" because I have met Atheists that consider it that way.
I never said Atheism was specifically the rejection of religion (which you are right about, it's not always.)

I never provided any examples you silly :p
This was merely meant to be a sophisticated talk, not a college essay.
There is a difference between speaking from wisdom and from fact.
And i did ask to take your time to respond to me because I wanted us all to think, not to post quickly.

And about the world flat and all that,
My misconceptions are noted, as I did not know that. Hence, the reason I posted! A-ha!

I didn't take my time to post because I didn't have the time then and I honestly don't really feel like you grasp the concept anyway. Please don't be as impetuous to say that I chose to do this unconcerned. I tried to point out flaws in your argument so that you could go back and revise them. However, you haven't done so (by picking new examples, etc.), so I'll assume you don't have an alternate argument or don't care.

Firstly, I was addressing the fact that you did put or in your sentence. I was not debating that your entire viewpoint was wrong, however the or clause adds unnecessary (and incorrect details). Your rebuttal only omits your transgression and propagandizes out of context. It's like saying "let's end global warming and kill all the animals in the world," having a response saying "no, that's bad for the world's ecosystem," and responding "nuh uh, I said let's end global warming and this is why that's good: ..." You can't just pretend you never said it.

An example of a religious atheist would be a new-age Buddhist or Hindu.

Secondly, if this is a discourse, you must use examples to back your claims. Since your claims were brought in using metaphor of relation, if your related topics aren't true, then your claim can't be valid either. It's not speaking from "wisdom" if your claims are false. It's like saying "this food tastes like chicken. I also have never tasted chicken."

Um, and no... You weren't using the ideas as misconceptions for your argument. You yourself were misconceived and used these misconceived ideas to attempt to fortify your argument. You presented them as true, not misconceived.

Of course, none of this addresses the matter at hand. I'm just suggesting that you yourself put a bit more thought into your statements and state only what you know for the rest of the debate.

FrostPheonix
June 7th, 2011, 09:00 AM
I didn't take my time to post because I didn't have the time then and I honestly don't really feel like you grasp the concept anyway. Please don't be as impetuous to say that I chose to do this unconcerned. I tried to point out flaws in your argument so that you could go back and revise them. However, you haven't done so (by picking new examples, etc.), so I'll assume you don't have an alternate argument or don't care.

Firstly, I was addressing the fact that you did put or in your sentence. I was not debating that your entire viewpoint was wrong, however the or clause adds unnecessary (and incorrect details). Your rebuttal only omits your transgression and propagandizes out of context. It's like saying "let's end global warming and kill all the animals in the world," having a response saying "no, that's bad for the world's ecosystem," and responding "nuh uh, I said let's end global warming and this is why that's good: ..." You can't just pretend you never said it.

An example of a religious atheist would be a new-age Buddhist or Hindu.

Secondly, if this is a discourse, you must use examples to back your claims. Since your claims were brought in using metaphor of relation, if your related topics aren't true, then your claim can't be valid either. It's not speaking from "wisdom" if your claims are false. It's like saying "this food tastes like chicken. I also have never tasted chicken."

Um, and no... You weren't using the ideas as misconceptions for your argument. You yourself were misconceived and used these misconceived ideas to attempt to fortify your argument. You presented them as true, not misconceived.

Of course, none of this addresses the matter at hand. I'm just suggesting that you yourself put a bit more thought into your statements and state only what you know for the rest of the debate.

a·the·ist
someone who denies the existence of god.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Source
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary


Yep, seems an atheist officially is someone who denies God. But, I'm sure he meant the popular belief that atheists deny religion. And how can you be Hindu-Atheist?

also, seems its on the brink of a flame war.
Time for a change of subject!

I'm curious, do all of you believe in evolution, and/or the big bang theory/the big bang collapse? Or whatever its called? Or do you have some other theory?


Oh yes:

Does that also mean that there is a universe where you can GROW food such as pizza and Ice-cream? Bacon tree anyone?
Bacon tree ftw!!!

NurseBarbra
June 7th, 2011, 09:17 AM
a·the·ist
someone who denies the existence of god.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Source
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary


Yep, seems an atheist officially is someone who denies God. But, I'm sure he meant the popular belief that atheists deny religion. And how can you be Hindu-Atheist?

Once again:
Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist. Atheism is contrasted with theism,which in its most general form is the belief that at least one deity exists.

I'm curious, do all of you believe in evolution, and/or the big bang theory/the big bang collapse? Or whatever its called? Or do you have some other theory?


And yes I believe in evolution, aswell as the possible Big Rip/Freeze/Crunch.
I also like the multiverse theory, and I personally think "What if our universe was created by two other universes that collided off each other?"

v/FD7PB-6TWrg
Man I love evolution.... Nature FTW

HarrisonH
June 7th, 2011, 03:15 PM
a·the·ist
someone who denies the existence of god.
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn Source
Dictionary.com - Answers.com - Merriam-Webster - The Free Dictionary


Yep, seems an atheist officially is someone who denies God.

Saw this, just came to say: Your sources say the following:
Princeton WorldNet: someone who does not believe in the existence of a god
Dictionary.com: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Answers.com (multiple): One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods, non-believer, someone who denies the existence of a god
Mirriam-Webster: one who believes that there is no deity
The Free Dictionary: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

So apparently, the definition that you provided "someone who denies the existence of god" is of your own creation, as each of your sources also included that it means "disbelieves" or "does not believe". The word "deny" is extremely biased when used by itself, as it implies that a god does exist, a claim for which there is no evidence.

Additionally, an atheist doesn't just not believe in God (Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, each is the same), but we also do not believe in any other gods. Don't try to make your god more special by making it sound as if yours is the only one we don't believe in.

In fact, look at it this way: The only difference between my religious beliefs and yours is that I happen to believe in one less god that you do. (Paraphrased quote from someone, not exactly sure who)

Malek Warhawk
June 8th, 2011, 10:33 AM
I don't know if I'll join this club, but I'd like to answer the topics anyways if that's ok.


What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same Sex marriage:
Personally, I see homosexuality as ignoring the laws of nature, to ignore the way things are supposed to be.
But I know a homo-sexual & told her I'd support her.
That's what friends are supposed to do, to support their buddies.
I probaly sounded conterdicting, but no one is perfect...

Abortion:
It's MURDER, no matter what stage of preganty it is.
If you don't want a baby, don't do anything to have one in the first place.
Prevention is superior to the cure.

Death penalty:
If it's someone like Bin Laden or Adolf Hitler, yes.
& I think part of why we have so many criminals is because the law isn't severe enough...
But if the law does become more severe, I do hope they do a better job of telling the guilty from the innocent.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?

I have been raised in a Christian home.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?

Yes, I belive in Heaven & Hell.
I also belive I am covered by the blood of Jesus & therefore will go to Heaven after I die.

Do you believe in aliens?

In a universe as MASSIVE as ours, I have a hard time beliving that we are the only intelligent life out there...

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?

My family knows & if I have any friends on-line that doesn't know, that's because they never asked about my spiritual viewpoint.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?

Yes.
If people are allowed to practice their belifs at school, I expect the same for Christians.
But we live in a world that seems to HATE christians for any/no reasons & I have read stories of which the Muslims are allowed to wear their special headgear in school, (I don't remember what they are called...)
but they've tried to ban a christian girl from wearing her silver promise ring, "because it can be harmful".
How can a little ring be harmful?

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?

For those who belives in God, they will find healing, strength & peace.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?

I can't say for the rest of my family, but here's how I see God:

He brings peace, not worry,
He gives strength, not weakness,
He gives wealth, not poorness,
He gives salavtion, not damnation,
He gives healing, not illness.

If any of you have questions regarding God, please PM me.
I can't promise all the answers, for I'm only human, but I'll do my best to straighten things out.

Sonicspeed500
June 9th, 2011, 02:30 PM
I'm back. It was my birthday yesterday. lol

"let's end global warming and kill all the animals in the world," having a response saying "no, that's bad for the world's ecosystem," and responding "nuh uh, I said let's end global warming and this is why that's good: ..." You can't just pretend you never said it.

Those are two completely different things that you're talking about.
What I had stated included an OR, not an AND.
OR is a difference, and AND is a connection that includes both.

Atheism is an absent belief in a deity or religion

same as....
Atheism is an absent belief in a deity
Atheism is an absent belief in a religion
I simply put an OR to combine the sentence, but with seperating the idea that there is a difference between them.

I never denied anything Gymnotide.
In fact, what I said never even mentioned Columbus, what you originally replied to me was a wild tangent off of what I said.
I simply said through obvious everyday knowledge that:

The world was once thought of as flat-

-WHICH IT WAS BY SOME PEOPLE. I never said Columbus knew it was round or that EVERYONE thought it was flat. The information about Columbus wasn't essential at all with what I was talking about, and it doesn't need to be added to my post to make it valid.

When I said the Big Bang Theory was false by the scientific community that founded it, you stated additional information about it and then claimed I was false. It doesn't mean I was wrong.

Telling me to ground my examples is an attempt to rub information in your face so you can trust me. Lets see you ground your examples? I work at a Bookstore, I can assuredly find multiple examples to prove that The Big Bang Theory was indeed posed into speculation about being invalid. It is a theory, you know, It doesn't mean it's been proven real anyway.

I don't need to provide an example for what I had said anymore than you would. If someone I had said was wrong, I would have no problem with you telling me so, but undermining my grammar and language to make me look like a fool is completely rude. I don't need to prove it, and I didn't go into detail to the point that I needed to prove it. I didn't impetuously say that I thought you didn't care. You have said so to me however. I did not have flaws in my "argument", be an argument as it may. In any case, I'm sure I am most assuredly banned from all of Landorus' clubs. : P

Gymnotide
June 9th, 2011, 03:53 PM
I'm back. It was my birthday yesterday. lol



Those are two completely different things that you're talking about.
What I had stated included an OR, not an AND.
OR is a difference, and AND is a connection that includes both.



same as....
Atheism is an absent belief in a deity
Atheism is an absent belief in a religion
I simply put an OR to combine the sentence, but with seperating the idea that there is a difference between them.

I never denied anything Gymnotide.
In fact, what I said never even mentioned Columbus, what you originally replied to me was a wild tangent off of what I said.
I simply said through obvious everyday knowledge that:



-WHICH IT WAS BY SOME PEOPLE. I never said Columbus knew it was round or that EVERYONE thought it was flat. The information about Columbus wasn't essential at all with what I was talking about, and it doesn't need to be added to my post to make it valid.

When I said the Big Bang Theory was false by the scientific community that founded it, you stated additional information about it and then claimed I was false. It doesn't mean I was wrong.

Telling me to ground my examples is an attempt to rub information in your face so you can trust me. Lets see you ground your examples? I work at a Bookstore, I can assuredly find multiple examples to prove that The Big Bang Theory was indeed posed into speculation about being invalid. It is a theory, you know, It doesn't mean it's been proven real anyway.

I don't need to provide an example for what I had said anymore than you would. If someone I had said was wrong, I would have no problem with you telling me so, but undermining my grammar and language to make me look like a fool is completely rude. I don't need to prove it, and I didn't go into detail to the point that I needed to prove it. I didn't impetuously say that I thought you didn't care. You have said so to me however. I did not have flaws in my "argument", be an argument as it may. In any case, I'm sure I am most assuredly banned from all of Landorus' clubs. : P

Since this is getting off-topic:

I took this discussion to PM.
Don't respond to it in this thread anymore.

FrostPheonix
June 10th, 2011, 12:18 AM
Saw this, just came to say: Your sources say the following:
Princeton WorldNet: someone who does not believe in the existence of a god
Dictionary.com: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Answers.com (multiple): One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods, non-believer, someone who denies the existence of a god
Mirriam-Webster: one who believes that there is no deity
The Free Dictionary: One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods

So apparently, the definition that you provided "someone who denies the existence of god" is of your own creation, as each of your sources also included that it means "disbelieves" or "does not believe". The word "deny" is extremely biased when used by itself, as it implies that a god does exist, a claim for which there is no evidence.

Additionally, an atheist doesn't just not believe in God (Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, each is the same), but we also do not believe in any other gods. Don't try to make your god more special by making it sound as if yours is the only one we don't believe in.

In fact, look at it this way: The only difference between my religious beliefs and yours is that I happen to believe in one less god that you do. (Paraphrased quote from someone, not exactly sure who)


Mehehe, i didnt, actually, make it up. I just copy pasted off google:
http://skullguardian.webs.com/def.JPG
Ah, well, seems google was lying to me about the definition.

I also never tried to make 'my God' special. Despite the fact that I beleive he is, in fact, special, I just capitalized it. Better if I wrote this?:

Yep, seems an atheist officially is someone who denies God any god or gods.

As for the multiuniverse theory nurse barbra mentioned, how do you think these came into existence?

Also, can someone please answer my question on how hindu-atheist works? forgot who, but someone mentioned it on a previous post. From what I know, it can't work.

Gymnotide
June 10th, 2011, 12:52 AM
Also, can someone please answer my question on how hindu-atheist works? forgot who, but someone mentioned it on a previous post. From what I know, it can't work.

Sorry. I thought I addressed this, but I guess I didn't :S

Hinduism and Buddhism are two of the more liberal religions out there. While they have deities associated with them freely, some individuals have chosen to omit them from their faith. It's a bit hard for me to explain, but if you know how either of these religions work, it's clearer how the presence of god isn't necessary in worship. Half of it is spirituality, half is philosophy. However, unlike other philosophies, these hold things sacred.

Certain sects (like Jainism) believe that the material world can't come from a "god" or "gods," whom they believe are immaterial (because they can't observe them). Rather, the fate of the world is completely bound to the soul, both of the individual and the collective. The soul is intended to arbitrate itself (thereby ruling out any need for a deity or deities to do so) and accrues during its lifetime a pool of karma through actions. If a soul transcends through its actions, the soul then reaches a state of "godhood," but (is not a god and) cannot exert any force on the world. Once all the souls in the world reach a point of enlightenment (a state of no karma, not good karma), the universe is more or less complete. In this way, the soul is divine, rather than a deity that would have otherwise created it.

Buddhism, which is a distant offshoot of Hinduism, believes in a similar fashion. Each soul is bound to the mortal plane by its own existence and the goal of life is to meditate into a state of higher wisdom. Upon awakening in this state, a soul can transcend the cycle of rebirth (rebirth is a very, very bad thing that all souls must endure!) and reach Nirvana. In this way, the thought is divine, rather than a deity that would have otherwise created it. The Buddha is not regarded as god, but merely a paragon. Some Buddhists, however, are theistic and believe that gods exist--however, these gods are subject to the same judgment as all the other souls. The vast majority of Buddhists are atheists, though.

Carvaka is the third of the three large atheist factions related to Hinduism. This one is least similar out of the three. Rather than any preset goal to attain, life is merely as it is. It is generated of its own accord and ends definitively (there is no rebirth, no afterlife, no punishment, no judgment, etc.). Anything of the world is created in the way that it is by its own nature. If it can be, then it is--trying to understand the "why" and "how" of the world is irrelevant. In that, the "goal" of life is then to enjoy what the world has to offer, live to the fullest, be carefree and grateful for the ability to sense. In this way, life itself is divine, rather than a deity that would have otherwise created it.

If you don't get what I mean, here's a Wikipedia article to get you started: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism Just click around.

edit I've also done some more research and I've stumbled upon these few things:

Raelism (diaeresis on the e; Ra-EL-is-um) is an atheistic religion that believes that all god-like figures in the past (the Elohim), i.e. Jesus, the Christian God, angels, etc., were extraterrestrial messengers that came to Earth. These extraterrestrials were responsible for shaping the world as we know it and some still watch over the planet. Raelians believe that the world has fallen from the expectations of their creators; they aim to pacify the world in an attempt to appease the Elohim and be welcomed into their higher society. Many Rael support human cloning.

Unitarian Universalism is a sect of Christianity that is not limited by belief or practice. Its followers unite under the desire for spiritual growth, rather than due to a common belief in a deity. While many UUists are theistic and believe in the Christian God, there are atheistic UUists who practice religious code in the same way as other Christians. Other forms of Liberal Christianity do not limit themselves to the belief of God and seek morality, equality, peace, etc.

edit2 I'd also like to mention something that I'd learned a good year back. Paganism, chiefly that of the Ancient Greeks (that I know the best of), traditionally followed polytheistic rules by definition. However, it's also important to note that their deities probably didn't / don't exist. For example, most of the Greek deities embody things that aren't particularly godlike, but are personified according to metaphor. Ares, for example, is the god of war and rage. He may be given a figure every now and then, but a lot of his reference is that he IS rage. Strife and Discord arise when there is strife and discord. Zeus is rain. Poseidon is an earthquake. Athena is wisdom and battle technique. It's very possible that they worshiped the metaphors / emotions that we now interpret as "gods".

irreligion (n.) the absence of, indifference towards, or hostility towards religion.
agnosticism (n.) the belief that any information about the existence of god is liable to skepticism; a god or gods cannot be truly proven to exist.
ignosticism (n.) the philosophy that all other philosophies (agnosticism chiefly) assume too much about a god or gods and pass judgment too quickly based on a generalized definition of god. Ignostics believe that the term "God" or "god" is fundamentally meaningless; since there is no coherent definition for "god," it must be defined by each individual before proving or disproving the existence of such a being.
theism (n.) the belief that at least one deity exists.
atheism (n.) the disbelief in the existence of a deity or deities. Disbelief is not a belief nor an anti-belief.
belief (n.) the state of holding a proposition or premise (both terms in psychology / logic) as true. A proposition is always either true or false. Therefore, you don't believe in a religion--you follow a religion. You believe in the ideas the religion entails.

World King
June 12th, 2011, 06:10 PM
Finally; a place for me! So, if no one minds (I know no one does), I'll join up.

I'm an Atheist, of course, but the subject of being an Atheist follower of a relligion sounds intriguing... o,o

Gymnotide
June 13th, 2011, 08:38 AM
Finally; a place for me! So, if no one minds (I know no one does), I'll join up.

I'm an Atheist, of course, but the subject of being an Atheist follower of a relligion sounds intriguing... o,o

Well, if you think about how many gods modern monotheists reject from polytheistic religions, it's not hard to believe that atheistic religions can reject that last one that monotheists follow. For the same reason monotheists don't believe in the hundreds of gods from other pantheons, atheists don't believe in the one of monotheism.

HarrisonH
June 15th, 2011, 10:36 PM
Mehehe, i didnt, actually, make it up. I just copy pasted off google:
http://skullguardian.webs.com/def.JPG
Ah, well, seems google was lying to me about the definition.

I also never tried to make 'my God' special. Despite the fact that I beleive he is, in fact, special, I just capitalized it. Better if I wrote this?:




Ah, my bad. Odd that Google is listing that as the source when that exact definition appears nowhere on that page...

Anyways, no, that is not better. I do not deny anything. I simply do not believe in any gods. Deny gives the impression that the existence of a god or any gods is true, which is completely unsupported by any evidence so far.



Is anyone else active with secular activism? I posted previously something that I had done (as well as two other people I know), and I'm also planning on starting a group with the Secular Student Alliance (http://secularstudents.org) at my college this upcoming year.

Gymnotide
June 15th, 2011, 10:49 PM
Ah, my bad. Odd that Google is listing that as the source when that exact definition appears nowhere on that page...

Anyways, no, that is not better. I do not deny anything. I simply do not believe in any gods. Deny gives the impression that the existence of a god or any gods is true, which is completely unsupported by any evidence so far.

Be that as it may, "deny" is used rather judiciously here. It's a matter of strict semantics--I understand the case you are trying to make, but "to refuse to believe" and "to reject" are also two of the definitions, slurred among "to contradict," "to refuse," and "to disavow." Deny is technically a correct word to use (though perhaps not the correctest).

I'd even file a case where every non-scientific dictionary gets the definition of "evolution" wrong, but that's for a different thread.

NurseBarbra
June 16th, 2011, 07:01 AM
As for the multiuniverse theory nurse barbra mentioned, how do you think these came into existence?

I believe the "Big bang", Being two colliding "forces", was actually formed by 2 other universes that collide off eachother, and ours could have helped form 2∞ other universes. I also believe that dimentions are formed the same way~

FrostPheonix
June 17th, 2011, 12:27 AM
Ah, my bad. Odd that Google is listing that as the source when that exact definition appears nowhere on that page...

Anyways, no, that is not better. I do not deny anything. I simply do not believe in any gods. Deny gives the impression that the existence of a god or any gods is true, which is completely unsupported by any evidence so far.



Is anyone else active with secular activism? I posted previously something that I had done (as well as two other people I know), and I'm also planning on starting a group with the Secular Student Alliance (http://secularstudents.org) at my college this upcoming year.


I still don't get how I made my God special, but I'll just leave it at that.

Also, I find it good that people get to make their own "atheistic club", and that schools are forced to allow them. Let people to get their say. Let them get together and talk about what they beleive.

I believe the "Big bang", Being two colliding "forces", was actually formed by 2 other universes that collide off eachother, and ours could have helped form 2∞ other universes. I also believe that dimentions are formed the same way~

Well, then how did the two colliding forces come into being? What would be, in your opinion, the beginning of all dimensions?

NurseBarbra
June 17th, 2011, 06:59 AM
Well, then how did the two colliding forces come into being? What would be, in your opinion, the beginning of all dimensions?

I meant that the collision or end of one or more universes are the begining of the next. I my opinion, The universe only exists because we exist. If senient life didn't exist, the universe would just continue to "exist" without a purpose.

I also suppose that the universe is on an endless repeat cycle. The big bang of our universe being the result of the big crunch of the previous cycle. This could be where Deja Vu comes from...

Gymnotide
June 17th, 2011, 09:27 AM
The common theory for the creation of the Universe is the spontaneous fission of matter and antimatter. When this happens, the mass of the antimatter cancels out any mass of matter, obeying the Conservation of Mass. In this, it's feasible that even the split of one sub-sub-sub-(and so on)-subatomic particle could generate a cascade that eventually formed the four "fundamental" particles, and from those, nucleons, and from those, atoms.

HarrisonH
June 17th, 2011, 11:01 AM
Be that as it may, "deny" is used rather judiciously here. It's a matter of strict semantics--I understand the case you are trying to make, but "to refuse to believe" and "to reject" are also two of the definitions, slurred among "to contradict," "to refuse," and "to disavow." Deny is technically a correct word to use (though perhaps not the correctest).

I'd even file a case where every non-scientific dictionary gets the definition of "evolution" wrong, but that's for a different thread.

While technically correct, I dislike the word "deny" as all of my experiences with it within this context is used by the opposition with a smug sense of superiority, as if we are "denying the facts".


Also, I find it good that people get to make their own "atheistic club", and that schools are forced to allow them. Let people to get their say. Let them get together and talk about what they beleive.

What do you think about people fighting to get public schools to remain secular? By this I mean, fighting against invocations at commencement ceremonies, having prayer banners hung by the school removed, etc.


Well, then how did the two colliding forces come into being? What would be, in your opinion, the beginning of all dimensions?

The cool thing about being an atheist/scientific is that we're not afraid to say "We don't know". We have plenty of scientific hypotheses relating to how the universe started, but no current way to say that one is absolutely correct or incorrect.

Bringing some sort of a higher power into the equation doesn't solve anything, as the question then becomes "Where did the universe higher power come from?" If you answer "It always existed", why can't that same answer be applied to the universe? Gods answer no questions, they only raise more.

FrostPheonix
June 21st, 2011, 02:54 AM
What do you think about people fighting to get public schools to remain secular? By this I mean, fighting against invocations at commencement ceremonies, having prayer banners hung by the school removed, etc.

I'd say that you should calm down. A little prayer won't hurt anyone, and the only thing I'd say you might get worked up about is when they try converting you to a religion or stuff like that.



The cool thing about being an atheist/scientific is that we're not afraid to say "We don't know". We have plenty of scientific hypotheses relating to how the universe started, but no current way to say that one is absolutely correct or incorrect.

Bringing some sort of a higher power into the equation doesn't solve anything, as the question then becomes "Where did the universe higher power come from?" If you answer "It always existed", why can't that same answer be applied to the universe? Gods answer no questions, they only raise more.

I had this wonderful answer written out, but then I exited the page and now I forgot it :(.
What I'd say for now is that, putting a 'higher power' into the world answers more questions than saying that the universe always existed. If God/gods is a higher power, he would be outside time and therefore could exist eternally. The universe is different, there would be proof that it existed for ever, if it did. At least, that's what I gather from my knowledge.
Lol, that doesn't sound in the least convincing, but that's all I can think of atm.

Also, see this:

World's oceans in 'shocking' decline-BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13796479)

Kinda random, but what do you guys think? What might happen if we die out?

HarrisonH
June 21st, 2011, 05:50 PM
I'd say that you should calm down. A little prayer won't hurt anyone, and the only thing I'd say you might get worked up about is when they try converting you to a religion or stuff like that.

That's silly. There's absolutely no reason for any sort of religion to be sponsored by a public school. If it was a private school then it wouldn't matter, but public schools are supposed to remain secular, and the only way to guarantee that is to call them out.


I had this wonderful answer written out, but then I exited the page and now I forgot it :(.
What I'd say for now is that, putting a 'higher power' into the world answers more questions than saying that the universe always existed. If God/gods is a higher power, he would be outside time and therefore could exist eternally. The universe is different, there would be proof that it existed for ever, if it did. At least, that's what I gather from my knowledge.
Lol, that doesn't sound in the least convincing, but that's all I can think of atm.

Not convincing at all :P and, in my eyes, answers nothing. But I'm fairly certain neither of us are going to change their views, so I'll skip it.


Also, see this:

World's oceans in 'shocking' decline-BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-13796479)

Kinda random, but what do you guys think? What might happen if we die out?

If we die out, then we die out. Assuming the world isn't a desolate wasteland, whatever's left on earth will continue to live on until our sun runs out of fuel (~5 billion years from now). With us out of the equation, earth will probably be an amazing place.

magikarpower
June 21st, 2011, 06:46 PM
I'm agnostic by definition though I don't like all the terms out there. i usually just say idc enough to look into anything. I will gladly hear what anyone has to say to support a religion, cause, whathaveyou, but most likely, it won't influence more, just educate me. I'm not sure if their is a god out there, but if there is, I've kinda decided he isn't what anyone thinks. I like to think that he could be a 4th dimensional being (that's directed to anyone who likes science). He can not be imagined because we are only 3 dimensional. He is just a normal person who took the "Create a dimension" class in high school. That's just how i see religion and god if he exists. Its half serious and half humorous. I did grow up Christian, however, and I know a lot about the religion and that is probably why I'm not concerned with it. as for aliens, I think there is life outside of this planet, whether it is amoeba or green dudes. This is basically my stepping stones into my joining of this group. I will gladly respond to any questions concerning more detailed subjects.

Butterfree-Charizard
June 21st, 2011, 07:20 PM
Honestly I can't see how anyone can be an Gnostic atheists at all. How can you be so narrow-minded that you completely rule out any chance of there being a god. The same goes for Gnostic theist. I can understand believing in god but to disregard science is just wrong. I find religion to cause more problems than its worth. I'm kinda leaning more and more towards being agnostic atheist as I grow older. I'm just saying you need to think, not just say there is a god or there isn't, because quite honestly you don't know, no one does. don't mean to offend anyone.

Gymnotide
June 21st, 2011, 07:50 PM
Honestly I can't see how anyone can be an atheists* at all. How can you be so narrow-minded that you completely rule out any chance of there being a god. The same goes for hard core theist. I can understand believing in god but to disregard science is just wrong. I find religion to cause more problems than its worth. I believe in god I guess, but I'm kinda leaning more and more towards being agnostic as I grow older. I'm just saying you need to think, not just say there is a god or there isn't, because quite honestly you don't know, no one does. don't mean to offend anyone. Although I'm sure I did :P


* Most Atheists end up really being agnostic in the end anyway

Um. Not offended, but can you please revise your mentality... Please?
(1) Agnosticism is not an alternative to atheism.
(2) You can be both agnostic and atheist at the same time.

Personally, I'm more on the side of being ignostic (with an 'i'! That is, not agnostic) where I believe that the notion of any singular notion of a deity is flawed. Singular notion, not singular deity--that's not to say that I oppose monotheism, but the fact that we interpret all types of deities in the same way. "Deity" or "god" means different things to different people and it's difficult to say that people as a whole are narrow-minded for rejecting the possibility of god. In a way, they are narrow-minded for equating all gods to one definition, but definitely not for the reason you state.

Butterfree-Charizard
June 21st, 2011, 08:08 PM
Um. Not offended, but can you please revise your mentality... Please?
(1) Agnosticism is not an alternative to atheism.
(2) You can be both agnostic and atheist at the same time.

Personally, I'm more on the side of being ignostic (with an 'i'! That is, not agnostic) where I believe that the notion of any singular notion of a deity is flawed. Singular notion, not singular deity--that's not to say that I oppose monotheism, but the fact that we interpret all types of deities in the same way. "Deity" or "god" means different things to different people and it's difficult to say that people as a whole are narrow-minded for rejecting the possibility of god. In a way, they are narrow-minded for equating all gods to one definition, but definitely not for the reason you state.

Atheism is saying this no chance of there being a god, where as agnostic leaves the possibility of there being a god, you can't really be both, because if you are then your just agnostic.

Agnosticism is basically saying that you can neither confirm or deny the existence of any deity.

Atheism is denying that there is any deity in existence.

I see what you mean though.

HarrisonH
June 21st, 2011, 08:36 PM
Atheism is saying this no chance of there being a god, where as agnostic leaves the possibility of there being a god, you can't really be both, because if you are then your just agnostic.

Agnosticism is basically saying that you can neither confirm or deny the existence of any deity.

Atheism is denying that there is any deity in existence.

I see what you mean though.

No, you're completely wrong (though I don't blame you, people use "agnostic" incorrectly all the time). "Gnostic" and "Agnostic" refer only to knowledge, any sort of knowledge. "Gnostic" is "knowing", "Agnostic" is "unable to know". See here (http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/) for a more in-depth explanation.

Gymnotide
June 21st, 2011, 09:22 PM
Atheism is saying this no chance of there being a god, where as agnostic leaves the possibility of there being a god, you can't really be both, because if you are then your just agnostic.

Agnosticism is basically saying that you can neither confirm or deny the existence of any deity.

Atheism is denying that there is any deity in existence.

I see what you mean though.

Atheist agnostic means that you do not personally believe in the existence of god(s), but you are willing to hear any supporting claims that they do exist. Theist agnostic means that you believe in the existence of god(s), but you are open to ideas that they do not exist. The point being: agnosticism isn't its own thing, per se.

Gnosticism (not Gnosticism; only capitalized as per grammar) is an idea that floats in between atheism and theism and only serves to describe either one.

With the stuff we're discussing in this thread, it's necessary to understand that we're effectively dealing with three (or more, if I deem necessary later on) different gradients. Since the first is least related to your post, I'll spoiler it.

Antireligious -- Secular -- Irreligious -- Spiritual -- Religious

Antireligion is when a person downright states the negative impact of religion (not deities, but those end up being drawn into the fight in the end anyway).
Secularity is when a person believes that religion should be practiced separately (though religious individuals may be secular too).
Irreligion is when a person is apathetic toward religion as a whole.
Spirituality is when a person believes in spiritual forces, but not to the degree of religion. Spirituality is a personal thing.
Religion is the incorporation of spirituality into humanity. When spiritual becomes ingrained in community (mass ritual, etc.), it becomes religion.


Atheist -- Theist

Atheists do not believe in the existence of god(s).
Theists believe in the existence of god(s).


Gnostic -- Agnostic

Gnostics are sure of their belief; not open to discussion.
Agnostics are unsure of their belief; open to evidence that proves / disproves.


One person may fall into any category of these three gradients (and almost never to a definitive location; people may fall in between some ideas).

Also, stealing this from the link HarrisonH posted, but I think it's definitely useful to be in this thread:

http://freethinker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/final6.jpg

Butterfree-Charizard
June 21st, 2011, 10:58 PM
No, you're completely wrong (though I don't blame you, people use "agnostic" incorrectly all the time). "Gnostic" and "Agnostic" refer only to knowledge, any sort of knowledge. "Gnostic" is "knowing", "Agnostic" is "unable to know". See here (http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/) for a more in-depth explanation.

there really isn't a difference between what you said and what I said. In terms of religious discussion


Atheist agnostic means that you do not personally believe in the existence of god(s), but you are willing to hear any supporting claims that they do exist. Theist agnostic means that you believe in the existence of god(s), but you are open to ideas that they do not exist. The point being: agnosticism isn't its own thing, per se.

Gnosticism (not Gnosticism; only capitalized as per grammar) is an idea that floats in between atheism and theism and only serves to describe either one.

With the stuff we're discussing in this thread, it's necessary to understand that we're effectively dealing with three (or more, if I deem necessary later on) different gradients. Since the first is least related to your post, I'll spoiler it.

Antireligious -- Secular -- Irreligious -- Spiritual -- Religious

Antireligion is when a person downright states the negative impact of religion (not deities, but those end up being drawn into the fight in the end anyway).
Secularity is when a person believes that religion should be practiced separately (though religious individuals may be secular too).
Irreligion is when a person is apathetic toward religion as a whole.
Spirituality is when a person believes in spiritual forces, but not to the degree of religion. Spirituality is a personal thing.
Religion is the incorporation of spirituality into humanity. When spiritual becomes ingrained in community (mass ritual, etc.), it becomes religion.


Atheist -- Theist

Atheists do not believe in the existence of god(s).
Theists believe in the existence of god(s).


Gnostic -- Agnostic

Gnostics are sure of their belief; not open to discussion.
Agnostics are unsure of their belief; open to evidence that proves / disproves.


One person may fall into any category of these three gradients (and almost never to a definitive location; people may fall in between some ideas).

Also, stealing this from the link HarrisonH posted, but I think it's definitely useful to be in this thread:

http://freethinker.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/final6.jpg

Your over thinking it. on a basic level Theist = there is a god. Add the prefix "A" meaning "no". Thus they believe there is not god.

Gnostic = Know and A meaning no = Does not know. Agnostic and Atheist are no different things.

The point I was trying to make is that it is stupid not to think in depth and to just say yes there's a god, or no there's no god.

Words are also very much open to the interpretation of the reader as well. Your definition may not be the exact same as mine. Words are almost like poems. The writer had his own view and each person who reads it has there own view. Of course on a much smaller level.

Perhaps you miss understood me because it seems we are arguing the same point.

HarrisonH
June 21st, 2011, 11:07 PM
You're not arguing the same point at all, and you're not understanding what either of us said.

Agnostic - Claims we're unable to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.
Gnostic - Claims we're able to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.

Agnostic atheist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I don't believe in one.
Gnostic atheist - I know there is no god.

Agnostic theist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I believe in one.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god.

So, are you an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist? You can't be simply "agnostic", because that has nothing at all to do with your belief in gods.

Butterfree-Charizard
June 21st, 2011, 11:14 PM
You're not arguing the same point at all, and you're not understanding what either of us said.

Agnostic - Claims we're unable to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.
Gnostic - Claims we're able to know. Related to anything, not only belief in gods.

Agnostic atheist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I don't believe in one.
Gnostic atheist - I know there is no god.

Agnostic theist - We can't know for sure whether or not there's a god, but I believe in one.
Gnostic theist - I know there is a god.

So, are you an agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist? You can't be simply "agnostic", because that has nothing at all to do with your belief in gods.

Ah okay I see what you mean now I misunderstood. I was using the term agnostic to mean Agnostic atheist and atheist as Gnostic atheist so basically I thought he was try to say that an Agnostic atheist and Gnostic atheist were the same thing.

I'll edit my first post

Went
June 21st, 2011, 11:40 PM
Hello. I'd like to join this club, since I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist, for the simple reason that I don't believe in anything whose existence hasn't been proven.

HarrisonH
June 27th, 2011, 10:36 AM
So, I just returned from the Center for Inquiry Student Leadership Conference (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/oncampus/news/student_leadership_conference_2011/) where I was a speaker, and all I can say is wow. It was absolutely amazing, the people were wonderful. If any of you ever have the chance to become involved in something like this, I encourage you to do it.

When the video of the panel that I was on is put up, I'll put a link here. It's me and three other student activists (who I feel have been through a lot more than I have) telling our stories.

JimJams
June 28th, 2011, 01:08 AM
Oh hey, I'll join! :D

Does anyone here listen to any good atheism/skepticism podcasts or know of any good blogs?

HarrisonH
June 28th, 2011, 03:25 AM
Oh hey, I'll join! :D

Does anyone here listen to any good atheism/skepticism podcasts or know of any good blogs?

Blogs:
Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/)
The Friendly Atheist (http://friendlyatheist.com)
/r/atheism (http://reddit.com/r/atheist) (Not a blog though)
SkepChick (http://skepchick.org)
CFI's Freethinking (http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog)

Podcasts:
CFI's Point of Inquiry (http://www.pointofinquiry.org/)
Freedom From Religion Foundation Radio (http://ffrf.org/news/radio/)
The Non Prophets (http://www.nonprophetsradio.com/)


This is just a few. You can find so many more lists just by googling "Atheist Blogs" or "Atheist Podcasts".


If anyone is interested in seeing my pictures from the CFI Conference, check out here (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150348169212222.434806.828632221&l=f3657f2f62).

Hassan_Abdillah
June 28th, 2011, 10:22 AM
I liked Gymnotide's post above, but then I read this:

Words are also very much open to the interpretation of the reader as well. Your definition may not be the exact same as mine. Words are almost like poems. The writer had his own view and each person who reads it has there own view. Of course on a much smaller level.

And immediately found myself agreeing to it. Words are words, the only meaning they have are the ones we attribute to them. So I dont think there's no need to get so gung-ho about "labels". Most of the above atheist vs. agnostic vs. gnostic vs. so on debate was, I believe, semantic indulgence.

JimJams
June 28th, 2011, 01:40 PM
Hello. I'd like to join this club, since I consider myself to be an agnostic atheist, for the simple reason that I don't believe in anything whose existence hasn't been proven.

Sounds like the definition of an atheist to me. :P

NurseBarbra
June 28th, 2011, 01:46 PM
Sounds like the definition of an atheist to me. :P
No. We've already had this discussion, It's even a few posts up.
In other non atheist related news: Tau Day~

Gymnotide
June 30th, 2011, 08:34 PM
I liked Gymnotide's post above, but then I read this:

And immediately found myself agreeing to it. Words are words, the only meaning they have are the ones we attribute to them. So I dont think there's no need to get so gung-ho about "labels". Most of the above atheist vs. agnostic vs. gnostic vs. so on debate was, I believe, semantic indulgence.

Agreed. However, there also must be some sort of arbitration about bending dictionary definitions based on societal misconceptions. It's one thing to interpret a phrase differently, but another thing to interpret a word differently; phrases are multifaceted and indeed act like poems, but words are something less malleable (but not always strict). I also agree that the discussion is based heavily on semantics, however, it's the semantic aspect that really matters... Hence, semantic. I will have no qualms with someone who says "I am atheist, and therefore don't follow a religion" but I will point out that they are technically incorrect.

The fact of the matter is that the term "atheist" has evolved such that it's effectively conglomerated with "irreligious," "secular," "antireligious," and whatnot. However, my goal (though it seems on the surface level to simply be overly pretentious) is to spread an understanding of the subtle differences between these terms. I feel that it's completely necessary to fiddle with semantics in this sense because what is addressed as "atheism" is often a multitude of things (few of which are properly labeled), leaving little room for specificity, as well as creating a misunderstanding of the topic itself. In this thread, grounding an argument without the proper terminology is inefficient--if you just say "atheism," but you mean "antireligious," how can we tell that you didn't mean "irreligious"?

Kozoi
July 3rd, 2011, 09:20 AM
Do not bash other ReligionsBy saying other Religions, you're making the implication that Atheism is a Religion when Atheism is the default position at birth, a lack of belief in a God. You might want to change this to 'Do not bash on Theism.' Anyway, time to fill out some of this long winded form. (Not filling it all out because I'm lazy.)

Same-sex Marriage: I do not see an issue with same sex marriage because I cannot think of a single negative implication that Homosexuality or same sex marriage has on my every day life and I believe that two people of the same gender can have an equally meaningful relationship to two people of opposite genders - reproducing isn't that big of an issue because there are plenty of needy children which are up for adoption who will otherwise have miserable lives, so they might as well be adopted. (Too bad that a lot of governments won't allow children to be adopted by same sex couples.)

Abortion: I believe that Abortion is perfectly acceptable as long as the pregnancy hasn't exceeded the period of around twenty-four weeks, at which point the fetus is capable of living independently from the mother and is also capable of pain because the nerves are fully developed and linked. I think that a woman should be entitled to have an Abortion, especially if the child is threatening her well being or if she was a victim of rape, I won't touch on this too much because I'll end up with a huge wall of text.

Beliefs: I never formed much of an opinion on Religion as a child. I did attend a Catholic Primary School where Religion was forced down my throat; I took part in the lessons, but didn't think much about it. When I went into High School I stumbled across Atheism and then I started to reconsider everything that I was taught. (Funnily enough, it was a Catholic High School.) I looked on my brothers computer at some Atheist sites and the more I thought about it; the more it made sense. Religion simply did not reach my burden of proof, and thus I eventually became an Agnostic. I looked at other beliefs and spins on Christianity, but none of them seemed to have any substantial evidence. (Heck, I even looked at Islam, but I found myself disgusted with how they were so sexist.)

I remember a few weeks after becoming an Agnostic I asked my teacher in Religious Education why it was called Religious Education if she only talked about Christianity and only made us read the Bible. She said it was because Christanity was the one true Religion (obviously) and I told her that I didn't believe in an Omnipresent, Omnipotent being that can create everything and come into existence from nothing and ever since that day, she hated me and in class and would force me to answer lots of the questions on the blackboard while everybody else drew their favorite fictional character nailed to some sticks. I was glad when I got kicked out of that High School became I moved onto a much better School which talked about a lot of different Religions and encouraged independent thought. Heck, we visited different sites of worship and everything. T'was pro.

After Death: I'm not going to claim that I have all of the answers because I don't. Who knows what happens after death? I'm not going to spend my entire life worrying about how a God will punish me with Eternal Hellfire for not believing in him. I could feign being a Christian, but if God was all knowing and did exist he'd know that I didn't believe in him and I'd end up in hell anyway. Also, if I became a Christian, I could be completely off with my beliefs. For all I know, Islam could be right. It's a guessing game - a Religious lottery with Eternal Bliss for the winners and Eternal Hellfire for the losers, I'd rather not take part.

Aliens: Of course, there is the possibility that Aliens exist, with the Universe being so vast and it would be very pretentious to think that we're on the only planet which contains life, however what's to say that these Aliens are smarter than we are? Even if there is other life somewhere in the Universe, chances are that we won't come into contact with it for a long time; for all we know there could be another planet which has very basic life forms on it, or a planet which contains beings of extreme complexity. Basically, I believe in the possibility and probability of Aliens, but I am not going to say that I know they exist because I don't.

Family & Friends: My mother and one of my friends knows that I am an Atheist. Funnily enough, the friend who knows is a Theist and we often talk about different Religions and get along fine. I don't talk about my beliefs (or lack of) much, but I'm not ashamed of it.

Gymnotide
July 3rd, 2011, 06:22 PM
Ah, Kozoi, that first school teacher sounds like a rather acrid person. I'm glad that you were able to get out of that x_x

Bela
July 7th, 2011, 02:44 AM
+1 freethinking rationalist

Do you believe in aliens?

I find this question to be worded a little funny. When asked if I "believe in aliens," the first thing that comes to mind of my questioner is the image of little green men in spaceships that populate a conspiracy theorist's wet dream.

But I understand what this question is approaching to ask is if one finds plausible the proposition that life can exist on other planets. If we were to lack belief in a supernatural creation of the universe, and presumably of life as well, wouldn't we then consider it an entirely plausible proposition?

Yes, the existence of life on other planets, if we are to hold it true that life was formed on this planet through naturalistic processes, would make us conceited not to think as plausible.

An interesting avenue down this road is whether or not it would be possible to interact in any meaningful way with life on other planets. Considering the distance, habitat, possible hostility, etc. of other life in the universe, does anyone feel that we would ever be successful in reaching out to others? Or do we find it more likely that we'll be isolated in the universe, unable to communicate with life elsewhere?

DowntownDumpling
July 7th, 2011, 07:37 AM
I do get ashamed of my beliefs easily, am vulnerable to group mentality, and don't like to talk about them. However, this is what I actually feel.

I believe the following to be, if not the absolute truth, almost certainly true: God, as almost any mainstream religion knows him, does not exist. Meditation, yoga, and spiritual activities can be useful to the soul. Jesus had great intentions, but was not, and is not, a god. Homosexuality is not wrong, and everyone has slight homosexual, as well as heterosexual, thoughts. Abortion is evil, but is acceptable in dire circumstances. All life is valuable, even those of enemies. Being a missionary is not an honorable profession. I do not know what happens after you die, but it probably does not resemble what Christianity teaches.

My family was Unitarian but I decided as a child to become an atheist. Even if I believed in the principles of Christianity, organized religion is not for me, so I wouldn't join a church voluntarily. If I ever have children, I will not raise them under any specific doctrine, atheism included, but I will allow them to choose whatever is right for them.

Masters Cage
July 13th, 2011, 04:02 AM
What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
I believe that people should choose to do whatever they want in those senario's.... If one man is in love with another, so be it.... The human race isb't perfect so why should people go around trying to believe so....

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
They are because they are.... I dont know what happens in my head and to tell you the truth, I dont care.... I live my live how I see fit.... I know doing thing may result in harsh penalties, so I dont do them and curse the people quietly....

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I believe there must be some sort of life.... It may not be humen, nor even on this planet, but we can't just dissapear from existance....

Do you believe in aliens?
Yes I do.... I'm not a fanatic but there has to be other life forms in the universe.... They may not be as complex as humans, or even visable.... They could be as small as a grain of sand, or as big as a large tree, but their out there somewhere.... Scientists have even proven that there is a life form on earth that dosn'e need Oxygen to live.... That could easily mean the on planets without an atmosphere, even those creatures could live....

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
Not exactly.... They think I'm not really into anything, they dont know I'm Athiest.... Why not is in the last question....

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
I know he would't be some giant human in the sky.... He'll probably be someone on earth.... But even if there were a God, no one man could be trusted with that much power.... Human or not, his not perfect....

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
All of my family are devote christians.... Most of them go to church avery week, while my close reletives go nearly avery day.... Its really hard living in a family like that, when everything you learn about science and Earth are the exact opposite of what they tell you....

G.U.Y.
July 16th, 2011, 07:54 PM
o: This club still exists?! I should update the member list! Geez.

Atheist Fun Fact: Atheists are the least trusted minorities in the United States, even under homosexuals!

And now for your daily dose of Atheist propaganda! :D

Scumbag God (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/53cb/) More Scumbag God! (http://i.qkme.me/sa5.jpg) MORE! (http://i.qkme.me/opc.jpg)


http://i.imgur.com/0f10W.png


Y2p6bKD3YIw
oM8FWCeaaEs

Gymnotide
July 18th, 2011, 09:17 PM
Irony God is one of my favorite memes, but also a pretty guilty pleasure... Kind of like Insanity Wolf. Pretty disrespectful heh.

G.U.Y.
July 19th, 2011, 01:35 PM
Irony God is one of my favorite memes, but also a pretty guilty pleasure... Kind of like Insanity Wolf. Pretty disrespectful heh.

I love insanity wolf haha.

I don't see Scumbag/Irony God as offense, because it points out true statements. I have multiple Christian friends who also like that meme, not because it's funny, but because it points out why you need to have faith for them.

Different perspectives..:P

Gymnotide
July 20th, 2011, 01:03 AM
It's just a different dynamic there heh. I might be able to name a few people would more than quickly jump at the call and start spewing out defenses for Irony God claims.

Gumball Watterson
July 20th, 2011, 10:16 PM
I've officially and fully embraced myself as an Atheist, and no longer some arbitrary agnostic guy.

Now I just gotta find the way on how to break it to my somewhat Catholic family and without getting my mom to think I'm just saying it just so I can skip the crap I have to learn for the Confirmation Sacrament. Lol.

HarrisonH
July 21st, 2011, 09:23 PM
So, let's start some discussion:

When in [public] school, did you ever experience the school itself pushing religion on the students?

I've got quite a few experiences with it, mainly because I've lived in South/North Carolina all of my life.

(SC) One of my only memories from 5th grade is a person coming into the classroom and distributing little pocket-sized copies of Psalms and Proverbs. I think it may have been more than just 5th grade, I seem to recall receiving multiple copies of it.

(NC) At my 8th grade "graduation", we were all asked to stand and join in prayer. This was the first time that I ever realized "Hey, what they're doing is illegal". Of course, I didn't do anything about it because I was too young, and my mom would have killed me.

(SC) Graduation from high school! This time I had learned that prayer was scheduled for the ceremony, and I took action (http://i.imgur.com/fB8RW.jpg). Will they try again in the upcoming years? I dunno. I sure hope not.

G.U.Y.
July 22nd, 2011, 07:57 PM
Hmm..

1. This one kid in my school when I was in 6th grade (I believe he was in 3rd grade at the time) was shot and killed. The school asked everyone to pray.
2. The day after 9/11 we held a mandatory prayer service.
3. Another kid in my school was playing with a gun (I was in 4th grade) over the weekend and I guess he somehow got shot and became paralyzed. We had a prayer service.
4. Different school now - when they came over the loud speakers and told us about Virginia Tech we had a moment of prayer.

That's all I can think of, both those schools were extremely conservative, and therefore had a highly religious student base.

Gymnotide
July 22nd, 2011, 09:45 PM
It's either never happened, or I've never noticed it. Probably the latter.
I tend to care very little if any pushing goes on.

NurseBarbra
July 22nd, 2011, 09:59 PM
Not really, In my school we have a moment of silence instead of prayer (multi-denominational school ftw~)..... so no. I haven't seen it in my school.

-ty-
July 22nd, 2011, 11:11 PM
When I was high school, we had had a moment of silence for tragedies. The school also had (optional) prayer services for the public. In my opinion, I think that is appropriate since the prayer service was a public service, not school affiliated event. However, Landorus spoke about mandatory prayer services; I do not agree that a child should be required to be subjected to any religious services. A secular service, that includes parent's, student's, and teacher's memories of a student should be appropriate for all students to attend.

Gymnotide
July 24th, 2011, 08:19 AM
Now that you mention it, I'm actually so glad that I attended a non-religious school. While I wouldn't be bothered by mandatory prayers, etc. I feel like they would be a complete inconvenience.

HarrisonH
July 26th, 2011, 02:24 PM
Woohoo! The video of the high-school student activist panel that I was on last month is finally up! Here it is:

g5C-sRDGPmU

:D

G.U.Y.
July 26th, 2011, 02:49 PM
Woohoo! The video of the high-school student activist panel that I was on last month is finally up! Here it is:

g5C-sRDGPmU

:D
o: That's really cool!
one question. (& in the nicest way possible~)
so what will you say if my grandma can make a broom drag you out of your house?
& i'm serious.
That has nothing to do with Atheism or any religion for that matter. You have a strike - and you're reported to the staff.

Gymnotide
July 26th, 2011, 10:13 PM
Oh no, that video is way too long for right now.
Can someone do a quick summary? :P

HarrisonH
July 27th, 2011, 05:21 PM
Oh no, that video is way too long for right now.
Can someone do a quick summary? :P

Nope :P It's just four students telling the stories of what they've done against school-sponsored religious practices, and then one going on about why it needs to be done, and then a Q&A session, and then a standing ovation.

G.U.Y.
July 27th, 2011, 05:29 PM
I found this quite amusing, I thought you'd all like it. o3o

http://i.imgur.com/w7j3s.jpg

Blue Nocturne
July 29th, 2011, 01:11 AM
I found this quite amusing, I thought you'd all like it. o3o

http://i.imgur.com/w7j3s.jpg

Haha! I've seen lots of pictures like this, I thought I'd lost that one when my computer died. It reminds me of this one:
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i381/FallenNocturne/ThankYouJesus.jpg

Gymnotide
July 29th, 2011, 01:19 AM
Oh gawsh. These pictures are getting less and less PC and more and more disrespectful lololol

G.U.Y.
July 29th, 2011, 08:04 AM
Yeah..you're right. They are a bit disrespectful~

Let's all refrain from post those kinds of images in the future. o3o

Gymnotide
July 30th, 2011, 07:32 PM
Has this image been posted here yet?
It just makes me wonder.

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9031479.jpg

Plus, I feel it's hubristic to relate human form to godly form x_x

Oh, and a random quote:

“Believing there’s no God means I can’t really be forgiven except by kindness and faulty memories. That’s good; it makes me want to be more thoughtful. I have to try to treat people right the first time around.”
—Penn Jillette

Domo Genesis
July 31st, 2011, 02:54 PM
I'm atheist because I have yet to see an angel, a god, an answer from the "heavens", or a miracle. _-_

Tomandgreen
August 2nd, 2011, 06:12 PM
If atheist means you do not believe in god, then it depends on your version of god. I don't think there is a big being up in the sky judging us, but you gotta remember 2 things:

1. The Big Bang was started by something.
2. Energy can not be created, nor destroyed.

Those things together essentially prove that reincarnation and god are definitely possible options. God, to me, is just energy. Energy makes us go, energy is the answer to so may questions. There is no "Hell" (unless you count some parts of Earth), and heaven is merely the transition between bodies. It probably feels good to be free of your body's physical limitations. So I'm an atheist, but a religious atheist. IT"S AN OXYMORON! WE'RE ALL OXYMORONIC!

NurseBarbra
August 2nd, 2011, 08:20 PM
1. The Big Bang was started by something.
2. Energy can not be created, nor destroyed.


Most scientists now say that multi-verse theory is a possibality, and that since energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed, state that our universe is the byproduct of either 2 colliding universes, or the big crunch of the last universe being the big bang of our universe. Ect ect.

EDIT: iq2 - Stephen Fry VS Ann Widdecombe : The Catholic Church Debate
9fN3zDtfivc
Spoiler: STEPHEN FRY WINS

keoni
August 6th, 2011, 11:21 AM
Uhh... I'd like to join.

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-sex Marriage: All for it. I feel that if people feel so strongly for each other, then they deserve the rights that everyone else does.

Abortion: Depends on the case... If it's a young teen, no. If it's a rape victim.... Hell yes. I feel that would be one of the worst things ever... To look in your own childs face and remember something so awful.

Death Penalty: I'm from the South, so that may make this a bit biased, but I whole-heartily agree with the death penalty.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Just because I believe that after so many bad things happen in this world, and a bit of rational reasoning... Oh and I did research a bit about the bible.... I just decided.... "Yep... Bible's one of the longest fairy tales of all time."

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
I hope there is reincarnation, but there would be no way to prove it...

Do you believe in aliens?
No.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
No;Yes. My friends know about it because I have many religious debates with other people (they just get on my case constantly, I'm quite quiet about it). My family doesn't because it's not like religion is all that important to us, so there's no real reason to bring it up.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
Uhh.... Hell yes? Freedom of religion = You may have any religion you want. Seperation of church and state = A religious factor (Christianity in America, at least) plays no role in the decisions and/or influence of the Government.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
GEORGE CARLIN. I think he's just always pissed off at something we screwed up with, honest, and has a great sense of humor.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My mother is a Christian, but my father is a Muslim... I don't live with my father though, so I don't entirely understand Islam too well.

G.U.Y.
August 6th, 2011, 09:28 PM
I completely updated the first post~ Go have a look! :D

Do you believe in aliens?
No.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
Uhh.... Hell yes? Freedom of religion = You may have any religion you want. Seperation of church and state = A religious factor (Christianity in America, at least) plays no role in the decisions and/or influence of the Government.

Welcome! o:

Why don't you believe in aliens? Just curious~

Also, with the way you explained why they're different, you basically said they were different then said they were the same.

Freedom of religion also gives you freedom from religion - which is where separation of church and state came from.

keoni
August 6th, 2011, 10:28 PM
Well after reading some of the other posts about aliens, I realized I hadn't been thinking in the correct manner about that. I do feel there are other lifeforms somewhere else in the universe/galaxy. Yea... I kinda was rambling on that last part and even had trouble thinking of an answer, but apparently I didn't quite succeed about that.

HarrisonH
August 6th, 2011, 10:30 PM
So! This past weekend I went to the Secular Student Alliance (http://secularstudents.org) Annual Conference, where I got to meet a bunch of awesome people, listen to some awesome talks, and all in all just have a great time surrounded by like-minded people.

I was received the third place award for "Best High School Activist", which I really didn't deserve when compared to the others.

But yeah, if any of you get the chance to attend a conference like this, I recommend it. It's absolutely wonderful.

G.U.Y.
August 12th, 2011, 08:14 AM
So! This past weekend I went to the Secular Student Alliance (http://secularstudents.org) Annual Conference, where I got to meet a bunch of awesome people, listen to some awesome talks, and all in all just have a great time surrounded by like-minded people.

I was received the third place award for "Best High School Activist", which I really didn't deserve when compared to the others.

But yeah, if any of you get the chance to attend a conference like this, I recommend it. It's absolutely wonderful.

Interesting! o:

What have you done, if you don't mind me asking.

Phantom
August 12th, 2011, 04:16 PM
Mind if I join? I'm atheist, and a very strong one at that. I recently was on "The Thinking Atheist" podcast.

Gymnotide
August 12th, 2011, 08:59 PM
Mind if I join? I'm atheist, and a very strong one at that. I recently was on "The Thinking Atheist" podcast.

Anyone can join a club on PC XD
What's that?

HarrisonH
August 12th, 2011, 10:11 PM
Interesting! o:

What have you done, if you don't mind me asking.

I'm the second student to speak in the video from the other page :P That's where I tell my story.

g5C-sRDGPmU

But like I said, compared to the others (Jess got first place, and Zack got second) I did nothing to deserve the award I received.

Sodom
August 13th, 2011, 05:48 AM
I'm BACK! I got so wrapped up in the LGBT club that I totally forgot I was part of the atheistic alliance. I won't make that mistake again, I hate being inactive. I haven't posted since May 29... not cool man.

When in [public] school, did you ever experience the school itself pushing religion on the students?

In primary school, we had weekly scripture lessons. I didn't think that much of it at the time, being a kid and all, but now that I'm grown I realise how perverse it was. This was just a regular public school with no ties to a religious organisation, yet they still allowed a group of old ladies come and teach us about Jesus each week. It doesn't sit well with me anymore. If kids want to learn about Jesus they can go to a church.

In high school, we had a yearly "Exo Day". I don't even know what that word means, but it was a big Christian festival type thing aimed at pushing Christianity on the youth by making it 'cool'. I was old enough to vocally disagree with that one. I'm not sure if it was more offensive that they were trying to push religion on us or that they were implying religion was cool.

G.U.Y.
August 13th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Do you believe in Karma?
Karma is a flawed belief in that it implies the world is fair..in my opinion. Just saying.

HarrisonH
August 13th, 2011, 06:53 PM
Who wants an awesome free poster in celebration of the 187th birthday of The Great Agnostic, Robert G. Ingersoll?

http://action.centerforinquiry.net/images/content/pagebuilder/Ingersoll_Poster_Button_short.jpg (http://action.centerforinquiry.net/site/MessageViewer?em_id=15283.0)

Before anyone asks, yes the Center for Inquiry is reputable (and completely awesome), no they aren't going to sell your information, and yes you will get the poster as it says.

If you're still in school (college or high school), you should check out the CFI On Campus (http://centerforinquiry.net/oncampus/) part of their site. :D

G.U.Y.
August 13th, 2011, 07:52 PM
o: I totally just ordered me a free poster. Thanks for sharing that, Harrison!

"Please allow 2–4 weeks for delivery" That's the worst thing about free stuff. :(

U.Flame
August 15th, 2011, 11:48 PM
Hello. I'm an agnostic person who loves George Carlin and Erich von Daniken.
I believe Karma can exist in different ways. I've seen messed up examples of the belief that any wrong-doing is punished with their children. Most of my family turned from my mom for horrible prejudice reasons, and now the ones that did's children are having serious health problems. The ones that stuck by my mom are not having problems.

The world can be very unfair, but I believe Karma does exist.

Bela
August 29th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Hey everybody!

I created a chatroom for us to discuss atheism, among other things, on the same server as the main PC chat. The channel is named #Atheism in case you want to join!

That post looks pretty cool by the way--I'll have to consider ordering one!

Samurai X
August 31st, 2011, 02:23 PM
Hey guys. I just came back to PC to check things out and I saw this club which wasn't around before and decided I wanted to join.

Just to add something else that I saw in the OP:

Yes I do believe in aliens and I even believe there is intelligent life somewhere in the galaxy just based on the enormous size of the universe, so probability basically. However I don't think they are anywhere near us like a lot of UFO conspiracy theorists believe. No offense to anyone who may believe that.

Blue Rose
September 25th, 2011, 11:47 AM
Hi, I'd love to join this club! It's a bit dead, but hopefully I'm not joining too late.

Anyway, regarding aliens, I am a firm believer they exist. They may not be as creepy/cool as sci-fi describes them, but seeing how vast this universe is, I'd be surprised/shocked if there weren't any other living creatures.

HarrisonH
October 11th, 2011, 04:23 PM
Time for a revival! (Sorta)

This past weekend, I traveled to speak at the Freedom From Religion Foundation's National Convention (http://ffrf.org/outreach/convention/) in Hartford, Connecticut.

Check out what I saw on the way from the airport:

http://i.imgur.com/c39wc.jpg

Sodom
November 11th, 2011, 05:24 AM
-clears throat-

I AM YOUR NEW ATHEISTIC OVERLORD

Yeah, I've taken over the club. It died a while ago and I've come to the conclusion that it is our fault for being lazy with it. But no longer!

It is after midnight here, so I'll go through and update the member list (assuming this needs doing) and fix everything up later, but I have to make this post now or else the club will reach its 30-day time limit and die.

It is a new era for the Atheist Alliance!

So, lets get some discussion going in here!

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Raizhu
November 11th, 2011, 05:30 AM
I guess I'll join, since I'm an atheist.
Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?
Not really. Sometimes I do wonder if there is a higher being out there, but overall, no. I can't imagine a god out there.

Misheard Whisper
November 13th, 2011, 02:05 AM
I'll join because, as Hemingway said, 'every thinking man is an atheist'. Also because I'm cool like that.

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Not really, but that's not to say I haven't tried. I was raised Catholic, started to doubt, realised it was all rubbish, and decided I was an atheist. A while ago, I had a minor crisis when I realised I was accepting atheism as blindly as I'd accepted Catholicism all my life, so I panicked a bit, read a few books from both sides of the debate, then realised I had nothing to worry about. So now I'm set, regardless of how people may try to sway me.

Gumball Watterson
November 14th, 2011, 04:57 PM
Atheistic Overlord? Nice oxymoron there :P

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Nope. Ever since I went from Humanist/Agnostic to all out Atheist I've basically associate religion with delusion.

Samurai X
November 18th, 2011, 01:32 AM
Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Not since becoming one. I had doubts on both sides before believing in what I do now but not since then.

Do any of you guys get annoyed by people who confuse atheists with people who say god can't exist and don't realize that we just believe god doesn't exist?

I don't simply because most of the time they're just ignorant on atheism but understand when I explain even if they don't agree.

Also has anyone seen the BBC series The Atheism Tapes ? It's a pretty good little series. I especially enjoyed the Steven Weinberg tape.

Mr. Tommy
November 18th, 2011, 09:22 PM
Kindly sign me up in this atheist alliance. I am an atheist because I believe in science, logic, and proof. There are no scientific proofs that god exists and if god do exists, then, why are his promises still not yet fulfilled? Some of them are fulfilled but all of those fulfilled are continuous from the start. If god exists, then, why are there many religions popping out? If there's a god, he would only let one religion exist, his religion and no other than that. By the way, I am a member of the Philippine Atheists and Agnostic Society (PATAS), an atheistic group in the Philippines.

What's your view on same-sex marriage?

Well, I support marriage equality. What's wrong with that? And by the way, if the couple loves each other, why not marry them. It's their human right.

What's your view on abortion?

I am pro-abortion. If releasing other baby would affect the health of the woman, why not just abort the baby?

What's your view on death penalty?

I'm OK with death penalty. If someone really deserves it, then he/she should be given a death penalty. Reclusión perpetua is not enough especially if the crime committed by the criminal is horrible crime against the law. I'm just against death penalty if the reason for death penalty is related with religion or because of being LGBT.

FrostPheonix
November 19th, 2011, 03:49 AM
Just clarifying, I'm not atheist. despite me being on the member list. If thats a requirement, take me off. I'm just here cuz I luv debating with you guys ^^

Sodom
November 19th, 2011, 06:12 AM
I apologise for my absence here, I have been horribly busy with real life stuff that has hopefully gone away now lol. Anyway welcome to Raizhu, Misheard Whisper and Mr. Tommy!

Have you ever doubted your beliefs as an atheist?

Nope. The second I became an atheist it was such a freeing moment that I've never looked back. In that moment, so many things I'd been questioning about the world clicked immediately into place and suddenly it all made sense: there is no God and there never was. I finally felt at liberty to live the way I wanted without fear of retribution. I think any person who feels that and then looks back is a fool. Since then, I've of course read up on it and only managed to confirm my beliefs with the logic of some of the greatest minds of our time.

Just clarifying, I'm not atheist. despite me being on the member list. If thats a requirement, take me off. I'm just here cuz I luv debating with you guys ^^

Of course it's not a requirement! All are welcome :)

FrostPheonix
November 20th, 2011, 10:46 PM
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.

Gumball Watterson
November 23rd, 2011, 12:54 PM
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.

Evolution is not something you believe in. Evolution is a theory strongly supported by research in biology. If you believe evolution is hogwash, say why. Or is it that you don't have the sufficient understanding nor prudence to do so? Allow me to enlighten you:

Humans don't come from monkeys. The theory does imply that humans and primates have a common ancestor that adapted to different surroundings and genetic conditions over time to give rise to each respective species.

The reason why religious people are so eager to dismiss this theory might be because it is very hard for them to conceive the massive time scales that are demanded by the theory of evolution. The time required for minor changes in a species can be of about 500 years if you consider a species with lifetimes such as 20 years to reproduce. This means about 25 generations of genetic variation and mutation can occur among, say 2 offspring per each of such an animal. Simple math concludes that there will be 2^25 of the species in the end, and over 500 years the family tree will involve sum(i=1 to 25, 2^i) descendants of an original animal. Statistically, that would mean that the final descendants shouldn't even have a single chromosome from this original parent unless the number of chromosomes of this animal was sufficiently large.

Now, not all of these organisms will survive. Specific combinations and mutations will cut the final sum by a bit, as some of the organisms won't reproduce at all or even reproduce more than once. Some organisms might also mate within this family tree. A fair approximation for the final number of organisms that lived within these 500 years would be more in the range of sum(i=1 to 20) or sum(i=1 to 23). Do you know what the value of the former is?

2,097,150 organisms

Within 500 years, a single parent's traits are mutated, matched, and successful through 2 million organisms. No doubt some in tree breeding definitely happened, but most of such is already accounted for in approximation under the necessary assumption that the species has sufficient initial numbers. Furthermore, this result is nicer than the perfect theoretical sum(i=1 to 25, 2^i), which is, by the way, 67,108,862 organisms

And that's just for 500 years. Imagine the scale of change within 5,000, or even 5 million years, which is also nothing compared to the geological age of the earth, 4,500,000,000 years.

But you can't even conceive such age, because nobody can even conceive life beyond a normal lifespan of 90 years.

Natural selection is a much stronger theory--pretty much a fact-- than Evolution, since it is observable with current organisms. But if you truly think about the timescales and consistencies, Evolution is a necessary by-product of natural selection.

Sodom
November 25th, 2011, 03:05 AM
To my mind, not believing in evolution (or by extension, natural selection) is the same as saying "I don't believe in science". The idea that a person could completely disregard something that years and years of research has gone into proving... it seems more than a little ignorant. Going into the science of it myself would be redundant since AK47 has just done it better than I ever could, but if you're choosing to believe in a God the existence of whom is essentially (and conveniently) impossible to prove instead of a scientific theory where you can be shown tactile evidence... I don't understand that.

Zet
November 25th, 2011, 03:43 AM
oh, happy to hear that ^^.

Lets get discussion going! Umm.....

What are your views on evolution? I believe they are hogwash. But that may be just cuz I have a religion.
I'm a Catholic but I accept evolution. Saying it is hogwash when there's is evidence to strongly support it, and there being genetic links is just ignorance and only makes you look like an idiot.

SwirlyBirds
November 25th, 2011, 09:15 AM
Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely [i]no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.

FrostPheonix
November 26th, 2011, 03:42 AM
Evolution is not something you believe in. Evolution is a theory strongly supported by research in biology. If you believe evolution is hogwash, say why. Or is it that you don't have the sufficient understanding nor prudence to do so?

To my mind, not believing in evolution (or by extension, natural selection) is the same as saying "I don't believe in science". The idea that a person could completely disregard something that years and years of research has gone into proving... it seems more than a little ignorant. Going into the science of it myself would be redundant since AK47 has just done it better than I ever could, but if you're choosing to believe in a God the existence of whom is essentially (and conveniently) impossible to prove instead of a scientific theory where you can be shown tactile evidence... I don't understand that.



I'm a Catholic but I accept evolution. Saying it is hogwash when there's is evidence to strongly support it, and there being genetic links is just ignorance and only makes you look like an idiot.


Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...

My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.


Hey, sign me up.I don't get all this talk about God and Jesus and all that. It just doesn't really make sense to me why people would believe that there's some big omnipresent deity watching over the universe. There's absolutely [i]no[/b] evidence to support the theory, so why people would believe it anyways, I don't know. In old times I know people believed that God (or multiple Gods) created humans and animals and caused stuff like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but now we know that's not true, so I don't get why people still believe.

Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?

HarrisonH
November 26th, 2011, 05:46 AM
My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.


There are many things wrong with this statement. There are an infinite number of things that aren't talked about in the Bible. That's not an argument against evolution at all.

Pretty much, if you say you don't believe in evolution because it isn't in the bible, you shouldn't EVER use electricity or anything made possible by it, eat any processed foods, drive cars, wear sunglasses, wear boots, wear clothing made of synthetic materials, etc etc. Be consistent.


B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.



There are many things wrong with this as well. First off is that the eubacterial flagellum, consisting of three parts ("motor", "shaft", "propeller"), has an analog in archaebacteria that consists of only two parts ("motor", "combined shaft-propeller"). So the idea of it being irreducibly complex is already bunk.

Additionally, a claim is "well if you take one part away, the rest is useless". Again, this is not entirely true of the eubacterial flagellum. The "motor" part of a eubacterial flagellum is incredibly similar to the secretion systems and other motility systems present. Again, irreducible complexity of the bacterial flagellum is complete bunk.

If you're interested in reading more, there is a good paper on the topic here (http://health.adelaide.edu.au/Pharm/Musgrave/essays/Chapter_5_Musgrave.pdf). Note that it is rather long, however.

Gumball Watterson
November 26th, 2011, 06:34 PM
Didn't expect everyone would get offended. And I also hope you guys think about it from my perspective before you go calling me ignorant. I'll just ignore anything I might take as an insult...

Offended by what? You provided a premise and a conclusion and we told you why it's hogwash in itself. Just a typical day for any Philosopher.


My opinion is that, A), evolution is not talked about in the Bible. Whatsoever. Of course, in an aetheistic POV or evolution beleiving point of view, that may not be valid. You could argue that God created us through evolution, but then again, I don't beleive that is so.


HarrisonH committed a fallacy Philosophers like to call the Inconsistency Ad Hominem. What you said is not refuted simply because you do other things that are not mentioned in your bible, such as browsing the internet.

Now, you argue that Evolution is not mentioned in the Bible, therefore, it's false. That's not exactly an argument that can be dealt with unless you add another premise: What exactly is false if its not in the Bible? Science? Everything? I will not say anything yet, as this is not a developed argument. And so, nobody can even say if what you said is valid or not.

The claim that God created through evolution is best described as Intelligent Design. But it would be nice if you could say why that is not true. Or at least finally say if you are in favor of Creationism and what the details of that belief are.

B), Darwin once said that if one found an irreducibly complex part in an organism, then his theory would be proved invalid. Irreducibly complexity is basically when a body part, or something of the sort that is present within an organism, cannot have a part taken out and have it still work. One part of the body that is irreducibly complex is the flagella. If just one part was missing, it would break down and be useless. According to evolution, it should have come about in small changes. How can evolution create that, when one body part is useless without the whole thing? It would have eliminated it, and replaced it with something else if it were essential.

I could think of more, eventually, but thats what comes to mind atm. Hope I answered any claims that I am being ignorant.


I haven't done much research on irreducible complexity, but the arguments do feel flimsy. For example, what does it mean for a system of parts 'to work'? Yes, if you remove a part of the system, it will probably not do the same function as before, but it can probably still function.

Evolution can definitely explain how a part that appears irreducibly complex still come about. The system might have had a different function with just slightly different parts. But a strong push or mutation can theoretically alter parts of the system to change the system itself into something irreducibly complex. This is much better explained in Richard Dawkin's (in)famous book The God Delusion. I also found a video on Youtube that uses computer technology to sort of 'evolve' clocks in a computer program, inductively proving that there can and will be missing links in the fossil record, and that most 'valid' irreducibly complex arguments are flawed as they don't rely on the definition of life [E.g. the watch and the watchmaker]



Just wanted to edit this in.
think about it, for a little, from a christian point of view. If there really was God, couldn't it all be possible?

The most logical thing to believe, as Atheists, would be that there was a first event--the cause of the Big Bang-- and nothing more. Physics and Mathematics took their place as the rulers of the universe and decided for our physical existence. By consequence, we should also believe that consciousness is nothing more than an effect of the functions of our brain, and can be explained someday. We essentially have no free will and are at the mercy of the laws of Quantum Mechanics.

The depressing but scientifically plausible nature of our beliefs are probably why people think we're some goddamn chronically depressed masochists.

Phantom
December 12th, 2011, 12:35 AM
Whoo, Phantom is late for the party.


Question PC, what do religious people say that pisses you off? There's got to be something. I know it. I can read your mind.

Seriously though, is there some argument or statement that really makes you pound a keyboard until is has the same consistency of mashed potatos?

Sodom
December 12th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...

Phantom
December 12th, 2011, 12:54 AM
Firstly, I'd just like to say kudos on your use of the word "mashed potatoes" in a sentence about religion XD

Secondly, one of the biggest things that annoy me is when they say "It's all part of God's plan" or "God works in mysterious ways". In any debate, that is the flimsiest excuse of an argument and there's no way you can even argue against it because it's simply that stupid. How convenient that God is allowing Ethiopians to die in poverty because it's all part of his mysterious plan...

You totally know that every religious argument is better with mashed potatoes. Seriously, it is, once me and my grandfather, who is Eastern Orthodox but an amazing guy and so fun to discuss religion with, were in an agument and when things got heated he threw mashed potatoes at me, and then I threw stuffing and then more potatoes, and next thing we know the entire family is having a food fight.

And I so agree on that one. One that always gets me is the circular Bible logic, or the CHRISTIANITY IS THE ONLY RELIGION RAWWR people. Also known as those who talk as if no other religion exists or is relevant. Or ones who think they know everything and start quoting the Bible and then I counter quote and they yell at me saying I can't do that and to use my own words. Leaving me going "butbutbutbutyousaidyoubutIbutyoubut-SUCK IT".

EDIT: BIG EDIT:

Also since I joined a while ago, and I don't expect people to go that far back, here's my story:

I was raised Roman Catholic, went to Catholic school since K, decided I was atheist around maybe my sophomore year of high school. A lot of crap had happened that made me question religion, and the more I questioned the less sense it made. But when I say I was Catholic, I mean it, I was an alter server, I was in the choir when I wasn't on the alter. Went to mass five times a week, (serious, every Friday with school, then two masses Saturday and two on Sunday since I was one of two altar servers) I was even a youth group leader and lead Bible classes.

I went to private catholic school since I was in kindergarten. (Graduated from a school of the LaSallian rite, taught by Christian Brothers) (graduated in 2009) Which meant I took a minimum of two theology classes a year in elementary and middle school, in high school a minimum of four (two a semester), aside from a life of religion. That's thirteen years of uniforms and cramming Christian dogma down my throat. Two relatives are priests, my grandfather is a respected member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and one of my best friends is joining the priesthood; my grandparents even run a food shelf "Trinity Mission" which I am still a part of. I was an server for twelve years, received four of the seven sacraments (Baptism, Eucharist, Confession, and, sadly, Confirmation). I also took a theology class in college as well as three philisophy classes... I've also taken a World Religions course (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and Judaism)((that one was actually taught at my Catholic high school... they removed the class soon after... guess why)) and a in-depth class on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. My move to atheism was hardly an uneducatd decision.

I had always doubted. The more classes and the more I learned the more I started to question. It started when my mother got cancer when I was in 7th grade. I thought what God would do this to someone? It's a question that I understand is asked quite often. The Church had no answer than "God's will". I believe that I was agnostic for most of my life, unsure of what to believe. The more questions, what I've seen, what I've lived through, they make no sense in a world with a loving God. I've lost friends to war, I saw the towers fall, my mom almost died, my best friends mom as well. I volunteer freaking everywhere I tried other religions, most in study, a few by practice but none made any sense. The last straw was when my church's priest was diagnosed with dementia and lost his mind, and the new priest was amazingly corrupt, and an alcholic to boot. The old priest was a good man, a man worthy of respect. Now he doesn't know who he is anymore. The last mass I ever served was one he attended nine months after being diagnosed. He couldn't follow mass anymore. He would stand, and yell at the nurse with him that he wanted to leave because he was scared. He became aggitated and hit her. I almost cried when I saw this. I was really close to that priest and to see him like this. Such a good man and a man of great faith, how could his god allow that? And this new priest was power hungry. Within two years he basically took over the Diocese, becoming the main priest for four churches. He was cruel and cared only for himself. Not only that but he told me, after twelve, almost thirteen years of service, that I could no longer be an alter server (note for those who aren't Catholic, there are ADULT servers) because I was female.

All of this lead to me deciding that there was no god, and yet I still am researching religion because I find it interesting.

Gumball Watterson
December 17th, 2011, 06:02 PM
Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.

Phantom
December 17th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Very wild childhood you must have had there, Phantom. Not everyone has the critical thinking abilities to release themselves from religion's grasp. Especially in the Catholic church, organized religion results in a lot of corruption. Think about it: You're the leader of masses of people who have been taught from birth to blindly follow their god and their religious leaders. It's actual cruelty being deprived of your ability to think. You can realize this fact later, but greed will kick in and make you take advantage of it.

It's silly how Christians think we're supposed to not understand God's plan. They believe that he is their 'shepherd'. But what's the point of having a leader if his plan can't be communicated clearly? It's like explaining Quantum Physics to a group of second graders, but instead of having a simplified lecture you have them play a game of telephone with the information.

I agree, indoctrination is an evil, evil thing. Blind faith is stupid and dangerous as I've learned. But it was the fact that when I was in 8th grade and was tutoring a second grader through a buddy system, and it was 9/11 and we had a special ceremony and the kid didn't understand what a Muslim was. Conversation was like this.

"What's a Muslim?"
"It's a person who follows Islam, another religion."
"What do you mean another religion?"
"Uh, well there are lots of other religions, Islam is one of them, the people who follow it are called Muslims."
"Why are there other religions?"
"Uh-crap-uh, well there are people who don't believe in God the same way we do and they do it differently. Some don't even believe in the same one. Some even have more than one."
"That's stupid; we should all worship the same one and then this wouldn't have happened."
"Uh, maybe, but everyone can believe what they want to, or they were raised differently."
"Why wouldn't everyone believe the same thing?"
"Because people are different from each other, and they learned differently."
"What are the other religions?"
"Uh there's lots, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists..."
"I still think we should all worship the same religion, that way there won't be any more bad stuff."
"Sure, maybe, yeah I guess...? Hey let's go ask your teacher what's next for today, huh? MRS. OLSON!!!"


Indoctrination is messed up, but the kid had the right idea, how many wars and conflicts are attributed to religion as a main factor? Smart kid, he was.

Sodom
January 14th, 2012, 10:40 PM
Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?

Gamzee
January 15th, 2012, 09:25 PM
I'd like to join. Pantheist, influenced by eastern religion and philosophies here.

Just to answer various questions I've seen posted throughout the thread:


- I'm completely for gay marriage and LGBT rights. This should be self explanatory. Being against these is discriminatory and wrong.
- Pro-choice. Woman's body, her choice.
- Death penalty is a no-no. No one has the right to take away another's life.
- Believe 100% in evolution
- Have never felt a religion being pressed on me in public school.
- I believe aliens might exist, though I doubt they've visited Earth.
- Family (and most friends) have no clue about my faith.

Phantom
January 17th, 2012, 01:09 AM
Phantom, what is Confirmation? Why is it sadder that you went through that than any of the other sacraments?


In the Catholic Church you go through seven Sacraments, there are four 'basic' ones that all Catholics need to go through and one before they die. In a Private Catholic school usually they are laid out for you when and where you receive your sacraments.

1. Baptism- Most are baptised as babies, within a few months after birth. (water marked over head, some stuff with a candle, blah blah blah)

2. Reconciliation (Confession)- In second grade we went through Reconciliation classes. Teaching us what we needed to do during Confession. Prayers, what you say to the priest etc. In fact I still the Act of Contrition... "O my God I am sorry for my sins. In choosing to do wrong and failing to do good. I have sinned against you whom I should love above all things. I firmly intend, with your help, to do good, to sin no more, and to avoid whatever leads me to sin. Amen." I learned that when I was seven. IT'S BURNED INTO MY BRAIN.

3. Eucharist - you-car-ist- (Communion) For almost three months in second grade (along with Confession class they were taught at the same time in my school) how to receive the Eucharist. AKA Jesus in handy cracker form. Learned handy things like what to do if you drop the host, (EAT IT EAAT IT NOW!), and which hand goes over the other. (Create a cradle with your hands like you're holding baby Jesus kids! Left hand over right, and when the host is on your left hand pick it up with your right and deposit it on your tongue!)

4. Confirmation- the reason I am pissed that I went through Confirmation is because it finalized my 'commitment' to the Catholic Church. AKA the only way I can be 'removed' from it's list of worshippers is to be EXCOMMUNICATED DUNDUNDUN! Since we're Baptised as babies we go through final Confirmation when we're older, usually between 8-10th grade, through a month long class and community service and a large Mass lead by the Archbishop. We even take a Saint's name. I chose St. Elizabeth. You receive a handy oil cross on your forehead and say "Yep I believe!"

5. Marriage- obvious

6 Holy Orders- Becoming clergy, nun, priest etc.

7. Last Rites- Get blessed and freed of sin before you die.


All this stuff, implanted in my brain. Hell I went to a funeral for my great grandfather two weeks ago. And during the Mass I kept having this feeling like I should be doing something. (Leftover I assume from being a server for so long.)


In short Shining Raichu: I am pissed I went through Confirmation because I am now solidified in the Catholic Church, and can't be otherwise removed. I didn't want it, but my parent's forced me into it. Now that I'm an adult I want free, but I ask every priest if there is a way to remove me from the list of Confirmed but it's impossible without literally being Excommunicated. Which funnily is very hard to do nowadays.

Gumball Watterson
January 17th, 2012, 09:12 PM
My mom wants me to do a Confirmation as well. She's not very pressuring about it, but she doesn't seem to understand that my beliefs are not a simple phase.

But besides, even if you do undergo all the rituals of the Catholic church, it doesn't really matter if you decide you are not Catholic anymore. It's just fancy superstitious rituals, and it's not hard to explain that the Catholic church is just throwing stubborn tantrums if you can't remove yourself from some list.

Well, the Catholic church's fancy mathematics was part of the reason we have Protestants: People who hated the church but still kept its superstitions.

Misheard Whisper
January 25th, 2012, 11:54 AM
I went through Confirmation as well when I was eight years old, and it's one of the biggest regrets of my life. I stop just short of hating my church for it, because I really try not to feel that way about anyone, but it really, really pisses me off. Mostly because I was never given a choice. I was never even told that there was a choice. I took Religious Education classes for my first few years at school, and Confirmation was put up on this pedestal as something that everybody did. The teachers told us, "When you turn eight, you will be Confirmed," and that was it. It was simply taken for granted that we would do it without actually explaining why.

The sickest part of that, actually, is this: Confirmation is designed so that you can, essentially, renew your baptism. It's a little more complicated than that, but at the most basic level, you repeat the binding to the Church you received at birth, but you do it at an age where you have free will and knowledge of what is happening. This supposedly makes you a 'willing' Catholic. The terrible irony is that I didn't have free will or knowledge of what was happening. I was never told of an alternative. I didn't even know that not everybody was Confirmed. Because I was eight years old and my teachers and parents told me so, I took it for granted that it was a set event in my life.

There was a lot of that sort of thing all through my Catholic school education, but that is of course the most egregious case. The other sacraments like Reconciliation just made me feel silly. I went in and sat next to the priest, but I had no idea what to say. I mean, of course nobody's perfect, but I was a good little kid. When he asked how I had sinned, I had no idea, so I just told him I wasn't doing the dishes at home as often as I was supposed to be. I hadn't stolen anything, I hadn't hit anybody, I hadn't cheated on my homework. That's more of a funny anecdote than a sad one, though.

Another one involves the fact that I wasn't aware of other religions. It went awfully similarly to PhantomX0990's story with the second-grader, though, so I won't go into any more detail.

FrostPheonix
January 28th, 2012, 02:22 AM
Kind of zoned out, so no idea what the discussion is abt... something abt confirmation being forced upon you?
Anyways, I just saw a 2012 theory (again) about some kind of solar storm foreseen by NASA scientists. Turned out to be a hoax. But, got me thinking, do you guys believe in the end of the world? If you do, when do you think it will happen, and through what means? Doesn't have to be 2012 I guess, just an end sometime in the future?

Pudz
January 28th, 2012, 02:55 AM
Is it appropriate for a person of an atheistic faith (ie, buddhism) to join here?

Phantom
January 30th, 2012, 12:28 AM
This might interest my fellow atheists. This made me want to break something. (http://jesusfetusfajitafishsticks.blogspot.com/2012/01/ahlquist-screenshots-if-by-christian.html)

morrison
January 31st, 2012, 05:04 PM
The city of Hamburg have a higher percentage of people who dion't belong to a religious group than people who are.

XEL
January 31st, 2012, 05:37 PM
Not quite an atheist since I consider myself an agnostic humanist, but sign me up! ^^

Sodom
January 31st, 2012, 05:42 PM
Of course you can join Pudz, even Christians can join if they so wish so you are more than welcome :D - and welcome to Gamzee too! I keep forgetting about this club, I'm so bad. Whenever I come to Other Clubs I always think of the LGBT Club and then forget about this D:

Confirmation sounds like a terrible idea. Like, it kind of crosses the line from identifying with a religion and choosing to be a part of one, to being inducted and sealed in.

And regarding the article, those tweets and statuses are disgusting! This one in particular I found disturbing:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DDMFQV5VaUY/Tw-3M1MqYEI/AAAAAAAAANA/C_sIncnsVnU/s400/Screenshot_44.png

They're just pissed off because she won and they lost. The reason it was important that the prayer be taken down was that education shouldn't be based on religion. That banner sends a dangerous message to the world, and the fact that she is persecuted for bringing about change is horrifying. And the violent messages that come from the Christians who pride themselves on love... well wow, it's amazing religion is becoming less popular with every passing day, isn't it?

FrostPheonix
February 1st, 2012, 04:40 AM
truth be told, I'm appalled at what those comments said... no wonder Christians get bad remarks these days :(. I'm christian myself, and sure, I think she made a bit too much of a deal about a banner, but really? Those comments just pissed me off. What in the world are they thinking? Sometimes I wish people think before they comment. And not just about how angry they are, to think some common sense. Almost all of them are just giving Christians a bad name... :*( That is, the first few comments did.

Sodom
February 4th, 2012, 08:21 AM
...aaanyway.

This is something I can't believe I never thought to mention - it has been nearly two months now and we are an atheist club that never even acknowledged it. Famous atheistic writer Christopher Hitchens, author of my favourite anti-theistic text "God Is Not Great", unfortunately passed away (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-12-16/christopher-hitchens-dead-at-62/3735580). He was a great man and an amazing influence on the world, and it is terrible that he couldn't live into his golden years doing what he did best.

Saryka
February 4th, 2012, 08:27 AM
SUP ATHEISTS (and non-atheists too!). Another atheist here, looking to join~

To go back on the topic on Confirmation: I was actually baptized Catholic and went through my first Communion when I was seven because I was still somewhat religious then. But in grade eight (when I was more or less agnostic), I refused to do Confirmation because I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself. I was the only person in my class to make this decision and it made me feel special for some reason haha. My friend (who actually isn't baptized therefore she's not eligible for Confirmation) and I skipped school on the day of our class' Confirmation retreat and stayed at her place playing Kingdom Hearts like REBELS.

but tl;dr I didn't want to choose Catholicism for myself so to this day I have not been confirmed and I'm okay with that. :D

Sodom
February 5th, 2012, 05:11 PM
YAY Saryka has joined us! :D

I actually until this club had no idea that confirmation was a thing. It just seems like such a toxic concept - it's almost like a grab for control. Like, "OK, so you're Catholic, right? You're CONFIRMED. No changing your mind now, you're in!"

Phantom
February 5th, 2012, 09:26 PM
Yeah. Plus it takes quite some time. Classes for it here were about a month long and about four hours a night.

Shanghai Alice
February 6th, 2012, 04:12 PM
I actually until this club had no idea that confirmation was a thing. It just seems like such a toxic concept - it's almost like a grab for control. Like, "OK, so you're Catholic, right? You're CONFIRMED. No changing your mind now, you're in!"
It isn't, actually, and I honestly don't know where you received that information.

Confirmation is, more or less, exactly what it says. You're confirming your belief, and vowing to defend the faith.

You can leave whenever you please, and nobody will stop you. The entire idea of the close-minded Catholic Cult Mafia Illuminati is... absurd.



To get back on to the topic at hand.

I was actually confirmed at the age of fourteen, while going through a pretty rough patch in my life. Before anyone asks, no, I didn't "Come to JAYSUS" and be blinded by the wonderful light. Quite the opposite, I pretty much... just stopped caring about a lot of things.

Being raised by lenient Catholic parents (the ones that teach their children to live an upstanding life, rather than trying to bring back the Bible-thumping Great Awakening), I was fairly comfortable with my faith, but, being fourteen, I still had several questions.

And, "surprisingly enough", I reached satisfactory answers by reason. I had a decent, competent religion teacher (something that most people seem to be deprived of, because apparently schools hire mostly strawmen nowadays...), a sub captain from WW2, who explained and argued, rather than simply saying "X is correct, all else is wrong."

When I was confirmed, I was no seminary student. I was no Biblical scholar, or walking catechism.

However, when I was confirmed, I felt strong enough in my ideals that, yes, I actually would stand up for them.

Two years later, I still believe that people should be treated with love, killing is wrong, and giving to others is good.

I do believe that there are a lot of lunatics that have distorted the message of Christianity, and I hope that they wake up and learn the truth of what they claim to teach. I acknowledge that horrible, horrible things have been done in the name of the Church, but I also note the good that is done as well.

I do not believe, nor do I demand, that a religious organization should be absolutely perfect to be correct, as I acknowledge that human weakness is part of reality.

I think that the black-and-white "Either God gives me X or He's wrong" way of thinking is patently false, and I think that the outright rejection of religion at the drop of a hat shows that the person was never truly religious, and I would appreciate it if we could cease the strawman burning.


I believe in basic goodness, in kindness and compassion. Though I know there are several people who could name Little Mrs. O'Leary down at the Church who advocates the murder of homosexuals, I could also name three of the greatest men I have ever met, who radiate such a quiet serenity about them that it's almost impossible to think that there's really nothing more to them than flesh and bone.


Of course, I can already see the inevitable accusations of brainwash and lunacy, but all I can is that I have a fairly open mind, so I ask that you all have the same. Understanding is not achieved through snipes, potshots, and anger. Understanding is achieved through civil discussion and dialog.


So, yes.

I am a Catholic, I was a Catholic, and I will be a Catholic.



EDIT: For the lulz, here's (http://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things-both-atheists-believers-need-to-stop-saying/) an article from Cracked that is sure to provoke... discussion.

Sodom
February 6th, 2012, 04:22 PM
I didn't receive any information lol - I was describing the vibe I got from the concept. Though "confirming your belief and vowing to defend the faith," while not being on the level of a 'Cult Mafia Illuminati', certainly goes toward my point. There might not be people beating you up if you try to leave, but it's certainly consistent with some sort of mental or emotional trap that would make it more difficult for somebody to leave if they begin to have doubts.

Shanghai Alice
February 6th, 2012, 04:42 PM
I didn't receive any information lol - I was describing the vibe I got from the concept.
That's how misunderstandings occur. If I were to simply write an unfounded opinion, I would be butchered for posting drivel.

Though "confirming your belief and vowing to defend the faith," while not being on the level of a 'Cult Mafia Illuminati', certainly goes toward my point.
It does not, actually. It's saying that, yes, the person is fully aware of what they're saying, and believe it's correct.

I don't understand why, nowadays, standing by your beliefs is considered evil and close-minded. If I am intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, I should have no problem with confirming that I believe in it.

All those who said that they were "pressured" into Confirmation never received a valid confirmation.


There might not be people beating you up if you try to leave, but it's certainly consistent with some sort of mental or emotional trap that would make it more difficult for somebody to leave if they begin to have doubts.
You mean people should be hesitant to switch their beliefs?

Well, yes, I do believe they should be. Otherwise, those beliefs weren't very well rooted, were they?



However, I understand that, in today's society, conviction is considered naive.


Personally, if you want a summary of what I consider Christianity, I would advise you to read C.S. Lewis.

Yes, even Narnia. It's not the Christians trying to shoehorn Jesus into fantasy, it's people realizing that Lewis was a Christian, and a brilliant one at that.

Yes, you can be Christian and brilliant. For further reading, see Chesterton.

Sodom
February 6th, 2012, 06:20 PM
That's how misunderstandings occur. If I were to simply write an unfounded opinion, I would be butchered for posting drivel.
I never claimed it to be anything other than what it was lol

I don't understand why, nowadays, standing by your beliefs is considered evil and close-minded. If I am intelligent enough to understand what I'm saying, I should have no problem with confirming that I believe in it.That's not what I was saying at all; if it were evil or close-minded to stand by your beliefs, this club would not exist. A person of any faith can affirm and stick with their beliefs all they like; I would expect no different and I have experienced no different. The issue I take is with the formal Confirmation structure set up by the Church itself, which makes it seem like some Holy door through which one has passed and would in my opinion create a further psychological barrier against leaving the Church should a person ever feel so inclined. My issue is not so much with the fact that it would make it more difficult to leave as it is that it seems designed specifically for that purpose. You may hold your Church in high esteem and believe them to be above such intentional manipulation, but I can assure you that I do not.

Yes, you can be Christian and brilliant.
I have no doubt. Brilliance is not faith-based, but rather founded on qualities external of religious belief entirely.

Shanghai Alice
February 6th, 2012, 06:53 PM
I never claimed it to be anything other than what it was lol
Actually, if you'll look back, you openly admit to simply building a strawman and posting it as fact. If you're going to speak on religion, like a true Atheist, you would, at the very least, research and understand the thing you are attempting to oppose, in order to form valid, well-constructed arguments.

I'm seeing none of that here, and I'm seeing a disturbing amount of questions that go along the lines of, "When did you realize you were better than the institution?"

I came here for intelligent discussion and rational debate about life, science, and such things. The majority of what I'm reading falls more along the lines of an average "Rebel" thread on the internet, with everyone patting themselves on the back telling themselves how cool they are.



That's not what I was saying at all; if it were evil or close-minded to stand by your beliefs, this club would not exist. A person of any faith can affirm and stick with their beliefs all they like; I would expect no different and I have experienced no different.
Looking back, the posts in this thread would argue with you. However, let's move on.

The issue I take is with the formal Confirmation structure set up by the Church itself, which makes it seem like some Holy door through which one has passed and would in my opinion create a further psychological barrier against leaving the Church should a person ever feel so inclined.
Because you've made a commitment, and a man's word isn't to be taken lightly?

Once again, you're confusing the stories of "The mean man made me say things I didn't like!" with "I received a valid Confirmation in the Holy Roman Catholic Church."

I took my Confirmation voluntarily. I as a rational, capable human being when I did so, and I did it of my own will. So many adults do so as well.

As for the children who claimed that they never wanted to do it... I'm actually on their side. I believe that schoolchildren should not have to get Confirmation, and it seems that many in the Church are shifting that way.

However, I simply ask people to remember that nobody forced them to agree to anything. "Peer pressure" is not a valid excuse, because I would expect the rational, intelligent people in here to choose their own path in life and have the cojones to stand up to things they don't believe in. The sticking point is that I believe that standing up should be done in a rational, mature way. I am seeing little of that here, and more of people sticking it to the man.

If you're going to argue Confirmation, then please do a little research. At the moment, you're denouncing something which is entirely of your own creation, something imaginary. The evil, evil occult ritual which you claim to dislike is one that is entirely of your own creation, with almost no basis in reality.

And yes, there are reasonable, thinking people that defend Confirmation. Reasonable, thinking men that see it as something besides some blood pact meant to coerce people into slavery.

My issue is not so much with the fact that it would make it more difficult to leave as it is that it seems designed specifically for that purpose.
It's designed to give people an opportunity to reaffirm their beliefs.

I'm going to ask you again, because I don't think I've gotten a straight answer from you yet.

If someone says they believe in something, and then they voluntarily confirm their beliefs, should they not be held to their word?

I'm old-fashioned. I believe that, yes, people should be held accountable for what they say and do. Not because of a higher power, but because that's what mature individuals do. If you say you do not believe, so be it. But to say that you believe, and then say something along the lines of "Neener neener, had my fingers crossed!", can hardly be called intelligent denial. If anything, it's the opposite.

You may hold your Church in high esteem and believe them to be above such intentional manipulation, but I can assure you that I do not.
My Church, as you call it, is run by humans. Humans are flawed, and beautifully so. Flawed humans cause schoolchildren to cry and weep later in their lives.

The original Sacraments established by Jesus Christ, however, are not flawed. As I said, a distorted sacrament that is done against the recipients will is an invalid sacrament. Therefore, as I said, when you argue against the coercive sacrament, you are arguing and fighting something that does not truly exist.


I have no doubt. Brilliance is not faith-based, but rather founded on qualities external of religious belief entirely.

Such as rational thought, reasoning, and mastery of logic.

May I recommend Aquinas and, once again, Lewis?

Sodom
February 6th, 2012, 07:49 PM
Actually, if you'll look back, you openly admit to simply building a strawman and posting it as fact. If you're going to speak on religion, like a true Atheist, you would, at the very least, research and understand the thing you are attempting to oppose, in order to form valid, well-constructed arguments.

I'm seeing none of that here, and I'm seeing a disturbing amount of questions that go along the lines of, "When did you realize you were better than the institution?"

I came here for intelligent discussion and rational debate about life, science, and such things. The majority of what I'm reading falls more along the lines of an average "Rebel" thread on the internet, with everyone patting themselves on the back telling themselves how cool they are.
lol ok, well I'm going to leave that well enough alone and end it here, because criticism of myself and/or the club is only reductive to the discussion. My only advice to you is that you are more than welcome to introduce topics for conversation - if you have a debate in mind in which you would like to participate, please do not hesitate to do exactly that.

If someone says they believe in something, and then they voluntarily confirm their beliefs, should they not be held to their word?
Yes, they should, though that is somewhat removed from my point. My point has little to do with whether the confirmation is voluntary or involuntary at the time it is undertaken. I am fully aware that people choose to confirm their beliefs. My concern is that the official concept of Confirmation (notice the big C) within the Church is used as a psychological barrier against departing the Church later on should a person find their "confirmed" belief wavering.

My Church, as you call it, is run by humans. Humans are flawed, and beautifully so.Right, and it's the motives of the beautifully flawed humans who run the church that I question. Their motives - short of an admission from the Church itself which I doubt would ever happen - can only ever be a matter of opinion and thus will forever remain in dispute, but my experiences with the Church have taught me not to be so fast to give them the benefit of the doubt.

May I recommend Aquinas and, once again, Lewis?
You can try, but I doubt I will ever read Lewis simply because I have zero interest in Narnia lol

Shanghai Alice
February 6th, 2012, 08:05 PM
lol ok, well I'm going to leave that well enough alone and end it here, because criticism of myself and/or the club is only reductive to the discussion.
Firstly, I do not think reductive works that way. In fact, I'm absolutely sure it doesn't. Please don't try to "embiggen" your vocabulary. No extra points will be given because of it.

More importantly, I simply stated that I have yet to see honest examples of honest debate. Admittedly, I have not read every single page, but I should not have to go over the thread with a fine toothed comb in order to discover signs of insightful conversation. This is, after all, a thread of the Enlightened.

However, I see that criticism of your beliefs makes you uncomfortable. I apologize.

I do seem to be confused, though. I thought criticism and skepticism was the backbone of atheism. Questioning and argument, along with demands for proof and evidence, should stir you, not corner you.

My only advice to you is that you are more than welcome to introduce topics for conversation - if you have a debate in mind in which you would like to participate, please do not hesitate to do exactly that.
What values guide your actions, and what are they rooted in?



Yes, they should, though that is somewhat removed from my point. My point has little to do with whether the confirmation is voluntary or involuntary at the time it is undertaken. I am fully aware that people choose to confirm their beliefs. My concern is that the official concept of Confirmation (notice the big C) within the Church is used as a psychological barrier against departing the Church later on should a person find their "confirmed" belief wavering.
You keep saying that, actually. And I keep responding with the Catholic perspective on it. Until you can show me examples of the Church using Confirmation to bully people into staying, I'll be forced to discard your observations as not rooted in fact.

The burden of proof lies upon you, as you are saying that the Church has turned a simple statement of beliefs into a weapon. Such a statement would require proof.


Right, and it's the motives of the beautifully flawed humans who run the church that I question.
Because all humans should be perfect? It's a human organization. Though the message and core never changes, the means do.

Their motives - short of an admission from the Church itself which I doubt would ever happen - can only ever be a matter of opinion
The Church has never admitted wrongdoing?

On the contrary, whenever Church personnel realize that something has gone horribly wrong, they usually openly admit it, and attempt to correct it.

Note that I am speaking about events caused by human fallibility that occur within the church. The sex scandal, which seems to be all the rage these days, mainly because "all priests are pedos because the news said so lol" sells newspapers, is such an example. The Spanish Inquisition, which is usually held against the Church even though it was carried out by a king, and the Church actually tried to mitigate the damage done in Inquisitions, is another such example.

However, the message never changes. That's one thing people seem to miss. Perhaps because it's inconvenient. Orthodoxy, mate.

and thus will forever remain in dispute, but my experiences with the Church have taught me not to be so fast to give them the benefit of the doubt.
You're so tolerant.

Your experiences with the Church? What are you, Van Helsing?

Your experiences with a Bible-thumping old lady, do you mean? Or has the Holy Father personally wronged you?

I'm actually curious to know.


You can try, but I doubt I will ever read Lewis simply because I have zero interest in Narnia lol
I'm getting really into Lewis, and I haven't read Narnia in years.


He does write other stuff, you know. ...err, "lol".

Somehow, I doubt you're actually laughing out loud.

Livewire
February 6th, 2012, 08:45 PM
On the contrary, whenever Church personnel realize that something has gone horribly wrong, they usually openly admit it, and attempt to correct it.



Not really. Take Galileo for instance, and the inquisitions attempts to attack him in the 1630's. Took the Vatican until 1758 to over-turn the ban on books that taught the Heliocentric view of the Galaxy. It only took 300 years for the Vatican to officially realize they screwed over Galileo, as he was cleared of any "wrong doing"and a formal apology was issued by John Paul in 1992 (along with the other 2,000 years worth of abuses such as the Inquisition, The Crusades, the Witch Hunts, etc). Galileo died in, 1642.


And don't even try to brush the myriad of sex scandals under the rug.

Oryx
February 6th, 2012, 08:54 PM
Geez Alice, seriously, chill. You can have a reasonable discussion about Catholicism/religion and atheism without being so condescending. I've had them myself with Andy, where he wasn't aware of some aspect of the Church, and instead of lacing every sentence I wrote with the implied "I'm smarter than you" that you are, I explained it and he understood and there was no conflict at all. I know you're a devout Catholic, but you shouldn't let Andy's opinions sway you to the point that you're rude to him because of what he feels.

My question to you is, how is Confirmation something necessary to your faith? Why do you need to go through a ceremony and say in front of everyone in the Church how you feel? And if you feel the need to, why do you need a ceremony to do it? The only point of a ceremony like that isn't to "confirm your beliefs", you can do that any day you want. I'm sure if you asked your priest if during parish announcements you could announce to the entire Church that you still believe, he would be more than happy. My old priest would have been fine with it at least.

The problem is the requirement of it for Catholicism. It goes hand-in-hand with evangelizing people. It just is not something everyone should feel forced to do. You can believe in everything in the Nicene Creed without feeling the need to go tell everyone you know how much you believe in God.

It's easy for you to say "you should just believe it 100% completely or not be a Catholic!", but you're in the uncommon position of having been raised in a highly Catholic-friendly household where you were given "God exists and is all-powerful etc etc" from a very young age. As much as I'm sure you like to think that that doesn't affect you, I'm just as sure that it does. But for others, who actually struggle with faith and want to believe but can't accept a certain part or something similar, Confirmation to them is a one-way gate, where if they say it and they're still struggling, they're now trapped. But you can't be a full Catholic without Confirmation. So they're barred from the full experience of Catholicism because they're not 100% sure on their beliefs. Which means they can't make a full decision with knowledge of what being a Catholic entails, because how can you do that without the Holy Spirit?

In addition, you can't just dismiss the way Confirmation is done nowadays by saying "well that's invalid so let's not talk about it". Andy is right in that it's often shoved upon people at a young age as 'the thing to do', so these kids are now Confirmed in something that they don't even truly believe in. It happens to adults too, because not all adults are as stubborn and argumentative with everyone around them as you seem to be. I was Confirmed at 16, fully old enough to understand the words I was saying. That doesn't mean I made a free choice, because I became Catholic due to my mom's wishes. But regardless of whether that Confirmation is "valid", it still acts as a gate that locks you in whether or not you want to be.

It's unrealistic to expect everyone in their lives, once they decide they're one religion, never have doubts or change their minds. In the perfect world of Catholicism once someone sees the light they'll never turn back to the darkness of hot, hot pre-marital sex, but in reality peoples' minds change and the act of Confirmation makes them feel as if they aren't allowed to leave the Church. Once again I ask, why is this necessary for Catholic faith?

Shanghai Alice
February 6th, 2012, 09:30 PM
[In fact, no. I'm blanking this long post, because I need to curb myself.

I am, admittedly, incredibly high-strung. I get overly energetic, put too much intensity into what I do. That applies to everything, be it running, driving, eating, or even things like schoolwork, or debating on the Internetz.

Earlier, I was hesitant to do this. I was afraid that if I yielded, others would see me as weak, would think that it was a simple cop-out because I've run out of responses. Honestly, I figured it would be hypocritical to advocate perseverance and energy, while at the same time dropping out simply because I'm afraid of getting too into a discussion.

And yet here it is, and there I go.

I sincerely apologize for all the grief I've caused, and will try to restrain from causing any more in the future. I need to remember to dial myself back a few notches, to realize that not everybody goes through life as I do, to remember that most people think that constant energy is undesirable.

I will make a better attempt to calm down later, so that I can debate with a cooler head. I thought I'd made progress by showing restraint instead of unbridled, and incredibly sloppy, emotion, but it seems like I still need to lose a few degrees and a few pounds in the head before I can discuss such things with others.


Once again, I apologize.

Shanghai out.]

Gamzee
February 7th, 2012, 06:20 PM
Sounds more like you've all been antagonistic towards Shanghai, saying "lol y u need dis to be cathlic?!?!", rather than the other way around.

Antagonizing can go both ways.

Sodom
February 7th, 2012, 07:47 PM
I disagree. My intention was merely to put my points forth, which I did - and I see nothing in Live_Wire's or Toujours' posts that suggest their behaviour was any different to that either. Additionally, "Why do you need Confirmation to be a Catholic" is in my opinion a perfectly reasonable question to ask in the endeavour for us all to understand each other and it was perfectly on-topic. There was no mockery in the tone that I could see, but perhaps you're picking up on something that I'm not.

Anyway, there's now vitriol all over my once-beautiful thread, so I'd like it if we could all just move on now :)

What values guide your actions, and what are they rooted in?

My main motto in life is this: "Live in a way that makes you happy, and do nothing that will prevent others from doing the same." That is the value that I carry with my everywhere, and it guides my actions - or rather, lack thereof. This is not rooted in anything in particular. I don't have a religious faith (and from what I've seen, lack of intervention in the lives of others is not at all in the handbook of any relgious organisation) and my parents are also not of that school of thought - so I guess I developed this attitude with my own mind, in and of myself.

Also, this might be a little awkward but I think this is a great opportunity to post one of my holiday snaps from my recent vacation. I met this awesome girl and we decided to strike a pose:
http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/323/408338-van_helsing_2004_24_g.jpg

jpp8
February 9th, 2012, 12:16 PM
What values guide your actions, and what are they rooted in?

My values are enjoying life and not being a dick to people who I want to get along with, and they're rooted in not getting on others' bad sides and not going to jail. I don't need the threat of a big sky daddy sending me to a really really hot place for all eternity because I did things that others said that he didn't want me to do. I can be a good person for, you know, the sake of it?

Also, joining. I'm an atheist and I hate religion. I don't mind religious people as long as they aren't trying to convert me, be apologetic for their religion, or detach themselves from the negative aspects of their religion as if it's not their problem.

Sodom
February 10th, 2012, 04:34 PM
Welcome, jpp8! Glad to have you on board :)

The thing you touched on there is the one part of atheism that I love the most - we can be good people for the sake of being good people, rather than for the sake of being "good Christians" or whatever faith is followed. By virtue of religion it is incredibly difficult to tell whether a person of faith is sincere in their goodwill or whether it is due solely to superstition. Though I guess as long as somebody is a good person, the reason for it doesn't matter all that much because the result is the same, I guess I'd prefer people to act kindly out of the genuine interest to do so rather than fear of divine retribution.

Oryx
February 10th, 2012, 04:44 PM
I've had this discussion before with one of my good friends from high school, actually. My school requires a certain amount of community service before you can graduate. If you don't finish it, you don't graduate until you do. My friend always hated this; she wanted everyone to be altruistic because they wanted to be, not because they were forced to be. I used to argue with her because in the end, the people you're volunteering for don't care why you're serving them food or tutoring them or doing whatever, all they care is that you did it.

Phantom
February 10th, 2012, 05:07 PM
Crap, I seemed to have started the Confirmation discussion and missed all of it, if I could explain myself?

The reason I hate the idea of Confirmation is two things. 1. I had no choice. 2. It can't be undone.

My parents forced my Confirmation. Hell I only went to like three of the damn classes. My parents said no Confirmation then you can't go to that school anymore. Now even though it was a Catholic school it was a rather liberal one, and all my best friends were there and it was the best school in the state. Once I was Confirmed the only way to have it removed would be to get Excommunicated. As in medievil times EXCOMMUNICATED. Do you know how hard it is to get kicked out of the RCC nowadays? Trust me, I've tried.

Also I've noticed that no one mentioned that Confirmation is a ritual, not just saying 'yep I believe'. There's fancy prayers and holy oil and bishops and stuff. You even get a new name! (You pick a saint's name)

QuilavaKing
February 10th, 2012, 06:04 PM
Crap, I seemed to have started the Confirmation discussion and missed all of it, if I could explain myself?

The reason I hate the idea of Confirmation is two things. 1. I had no choice. 2. It can't be undone.

My parents forced my Confirmation. Hell I only went to like three of the damn classes. My parents said no Confirmation then you can't go to that school anymore. Now even though it was a Catholic school it was a rather liberal one, and all my best friends were there and it was the best school in the state. Once I was Confirmed the only way to have it removed would be to get Excommunicated. As in medievil times EXCOMMUNICATED. Do you know how hard it is to get kicked out of the RCC nowadays? Trust me, I've tried.

Also I've noticed that no one mentioned that Confirmation is a ritual, not just saying 'yep I believe'. There's fancy prayers and holy oil and bishops and stuff. You even get a new name! (You pick a saint's name)
What exactly is confirmation? Why can't you just walk away and pretend you were never part of it?

Phantom
February 10th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Confirmation is "the perfection of baptism". Basically it's reaffirming your faith. Once you're in, your in. Here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation)

Basically you're baptised as a baby. When you are a teenager you Confirm your baptism with others in your class. It's a simple rite that basically says, "Yep I believe and am ready to be treated like an adult Catholic!" I was 15 for my Confirmation. Once confirmed you are part of the Catholic registry.

Yes, I can walk away and act like it never happened. But according to the RCC, I'm still a member. I still am supposed to give my 10%, and I still receive mail and alerts and stuff from the church. I am still counted as a full Catholic and am added toward the total number of Catholics in the world.

I want it to be one less. I don't want to be a registered Catholic. I want my "Saint's Name" removed from the records. To do that I have to be excommunicated. Which is near impossible when my damn local archbishop won't do a thing about it. I've emailed him, and even went to the Cathedral. He keeps ignoring me. And he's the only person that can start the process.

2Cool4Mewtwo
February 10th, 2012, 07:54 PM
I don't know if I ever posted here... but I'll share my views anyways.

I'm Christian, but I'm just visiting this thread to see what Atheists really think of religion in general. It's somewhat fascinating that majority of Atheists actually treat religion like it's their worst enemy and such a hindrance to their lives, even though they claim otherwise. Not trying to stir up controversy or anything, but so far it's the view that I found in majority of atheists. I'm sure there is more to it than that, though.

Crap, I seemed to have started the Confirmation discussion and missed all of it, if I could explain myself?

The reason I hate the idea of Confirmation is two things. 1. I had no choice. 2. It can't be undone.

My parents forced my Confirmation. Hell I only went to like three of the damn classes. My parents said no Confirmation then you can't go to that school anymore. Now even though it was a Catholic school it was a rather liberal one, and all my best friends were there and it was the best school in the state. Once I was Confirmed the only way to have it removed would be to get Excommunicated. As in medievil times EXCOMMUNICATED. Do you know how hard it is to get kicked out of the RCC nowadays? Trust me, I've tried.

Also I've noticed that no one mentioned that Confirmation is a ritual, not just saying 'yep I believe'. There's fancy prayers and holy oil and bishops and stuff. You even get a new name! (You pick a saint's name)

I don't see how being "confirmed" is bothering you. If you don't hold the same ideas as those of Christians, and if you're an actual Atheist and truly don't believe in confirmation, isn't it easy to just forget about it?

Phantom
February 10th, 2012, 08:19 PM
I don't know if I ever posted here... but I'll share my views anyways.

I'm Christian, but I'm just visiting this thread to see what Atheists really think of religion in general. It's somewhat fascinating that majority of Atheists actually treat religion like it's their worst enemy and such a hindrance to their lives, even though they claim otherwise. Not trying to stir up controversy or anything, but so far it's the view that I found in majority of atheists. I'm sure there is more to it than that, though.


I don't see how being "confirmed" is bothering you. If you don't hold the same ideas as those of Christians, and if you're an actual Atheist and truly don't believe in confirmation, isn't it easy to just forget about it?

Could you elaborate?

Though it's true, many atheists thing religion is a bad thing. If I dare say, most do. "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has."

Faith is the most dangerous weapon in any religion's arsenal. As Sam Harris said, “We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.”

Another thing he says is, “Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities, and these divisions have become a continuous source of bloodshed. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it has been at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews vs. Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians vs. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians vs. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims vs. Hindus), Sudan (Muslims vs. Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims vs. Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims vs. Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists vs. Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims vs. Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite vs. Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians vs. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis vs. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. These are places where religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in recent decades.

Why is religion such a potent source of violence? There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us–them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If you really believe that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism, or politics.”

I think I've said it somewhere else, We are all atheists in respects to Zeus and Thor. Their faith that their people had for deities were as strong as any faith or belief now with the God of Abraham. How could people with such faith toss away this faith and instead worship another? Proof that faith is fleeting.

I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milchemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust, the Reconquista, and many more.

There have been 123 major wars considered to be purely religious, 66 of them involving Islam. That doesn't include the numerous conflicts, such as Terrorism and the issues between the warring tribes in Iraq, or even the squabbles between warring tribes in Africa.

I'd consider that an enemy.

I've explained confirmation already.

QuilavaKing
February 10th, 2012, 08:42 PM
I don't know if I ever posted here... but I'll share my views anyways.

I'm Christian, but I'm just visiting this thread to see what Atheists really think of religion in general.
Same here. Although, after reading phantom's post on the rituals he performed as a catholic, I'm no longer surprised that nearly everyone I know, who went to a catholic school as a kid, is now an atheist. None of that really even has anything to do with God, as far as I can tell.

In my case, we don't have any rituals or any requirements, you just believe/accept God, and do your best to sin as little as possible, and you're good to go.

2Cool4Mewtwo
February 11th, 2012, 07:33 AM
Could you elaborate?

Though it's true, many atheists thing religion is a bad thing. If I dare say, most do. "Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has."

Faith is the most dangerous weapon in any religion's arsenal. As Sam Harris said, “We have a choice. We have two options as human beings. We have a choice between conversation and war. That's it. Conversation and violence. And faith is a conversation stopper.”

Another thing he says is, “Incompatible religious doctrines have balkanized our world into separate moral communities, and these divisions have become a continuous source of bloodshed. Indeed, religion is as much a living spring of violence today as it has been at any time in the past. The recent conflicts in Palestine (Jews vs. Muslims), the Balkans (Orthodox Serbians vs. Catholic Croatians; Orthodox Serbians vs. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims), Northern Ireland (Protestants vs. Catholics), Kashmir (Muslims vs. Hindus), Sudan (Muslims vs. Christians and animists), Nigeria (Muslims vs. Christians), Ethiopia and Eritrea (Muslims vs. Christians), Sri Lanka (Sinhalese Buddhists vs. Tamil Hindus), Indonesia (Muslims vs. Timorese Christians), Iran and Iraq (Shiite vs. Sunni Muslims), and the Caucasus (Orthodox Russians vs. Chechen Muslims; Muslim Azerbaijanis vs. Catholic and Orthodox Armenians) are merely a few cases in point. These are places where religion has been the explicit cause of literally millions of deaths in recent decades.

Why is religion such a potent source of violence? There is no other sphere of discourse in which human beings so fully articulate their differences from one another, or cast these differences in terms of everlasting rewards and punishments. Religion is the one endeavor in which us–them thinking achieves a transcendent significance. If you really believe that calling God by the right name can spell the difference between eternal happiness and eternal suffering, then it becomes quite reasonable to treat heretics and unbelievers rather badly. The stakes of our religious differences are immeasurably higher than those born of mere tribalism, racism, or politics.”

I think I've said it somewhere else, We are all atheists in respects to Zeus and Thor. Their faith that their people had for deities were as strong as any faith or belief now with the God of Abraham. How could people with such faith toss away this faith and instead worship another? Proof that faith is fleeting.

I believe that religion, especially this blind faith, is dangerous. Millions have died in religious conflict, in the name of their respective gods. Isn't killing still killing whether or not it is in the name of a deity? Is it still wrong to believe that killing is bad? Should I walk over to my neighbor who is Muslim and shoot him, and when the police question me I say it was because he was a non believer? It sounds wrong because it is. Yet millions have died in the same conflict for the sake of faith and religion. The Crusades, the Spanish Conquistadores, the Inquisition, the French Wars of Religion, Protestants vs. Catholics, Thirty Years War, Taipeng Rebellion, the Islamic notion of Jihad, the Jewish Milchemet Mitzvah, the Christian Milites Christi, the Holocaust, the Reconquista, and many more.

There have been 123 major wars considered to be purely religious, 66 of them involving Islam. That doesn't include the numerous conflicts, such as Terrorism and the issues between the warring tribes in Iraq, or even the squabbles between warring tribes in Africa.

I'd consider that an enemy.

I've explained confirmation already.

I get what you're jabbing at, and I do agree that religion can potentially be dangerous, but not in its entirety.

I believe that religion is just a scapegoat for all these conflicts, and religion is used solely as a reason for these people to cause those wars. There also have been numerous conflicts which didn't involve religion, such as Mongol invasions and Stalin's execution of 20 million people (not to mention tens and even hundreds of conflicts in Eastern Asia alone).

I'm religious, but am I a crazy person who wants to wreak havoc on my community? No.

As for confirmation, there is no "list" that keeps the record of who has been confirmed or not, unless you can provide a counter-example for it, in the form of a picture or whatever that'll convince me to think otherwise. Excommunication that you've mentioned is what happened in the middle ages, which is obsolete by now. If you truly want to distance yourself away from God, then just don't let these thoughts get into your head.

Phantom
February 11th, 2012, 04:33 PM
I get what you're jabbing at, and I do agree that religion can potentially be dangerous, but not in its entirety.

I believe that religion is just a scapegoat for all these conflicts, and religion is used solely as a reason for these people to cause those wars. There also have been numerous conflicts which didn't involve religion, such as Mongol invasions and Stalin's execution of 20 million people (not to mention tens and even hundreds of conflicts in Eastern Asia alone).

Well I didn't say every conflict included religion.

For other reasons atheists might consider religion an enemy. This. (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism) This. (http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/06/15/charley-reese-atheists-are-untrustworthy-immoral.htm) This. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists)This. (http://jesusfetusfajitafishsticks.blogspot.com/2012/01/ahlquist-screenshots-if-by-christian.html)This. (http://onemansblog.com/2011/08/06/christians-openly-advocate-killing-athiests-on-fox-news-facebook-page/)This. (http://crosscut.com/2008/11/20/mossback/18640/Bad-news-for-atheists/)This. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1)This. (http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens2.html)


[As for confirmation, there is no "list" that keeps the record of who has been confirmed or not, unless you can provide a counter-example for it, in the form of a picture or whatever that'll convince me to think otherwise. Excommunication that you've mentioned is what happened in the middle ages, which is obsolete by now. If you truly want to distance yourself away from God, then just don't let these thoughts get into your head.

1. Yes there is. The Arch Diocese or local church keeps records of each Confirmation. I don't have authorization to view private files. Sorry.
2. Excommunication is still the CCC, so no, it's no 'obsolete'.MODERN EXCOMMUNICATION (http://atheism.about.com/od/ideasforatheistactivism/a/Excommunication.htm)
3. List of Excommunicated people. Including 21st century. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#21st_century)
4. It's a personal preference, which I've already explained.

Oryx
February 11th, 2012, 04:43 PM
As for confirmation, there is no "list" that keeps the record of who has been confirmed or not, unless you can provide a counter-example for it, in the form of a picture or whatever that'll convince me to think otherwise. Excommunication that you've mentioned is what happened in the middle ages, which is obsolete by now. If you truly want to distance yourself away from God, then just don't let these thoughts get into your head.

They even keep a list of who donates how much in each individual church using the pre-made donation envelopes they send you, do you really think that they don't bother to record who was confirmed? Her wish to not be officially "in" the church is completely reasonable. When the Church claims that they have 65 million members in the United States, she doesn't want to be a part of that number.

They also record who goes to mass and who doesn't week to week, how often Catholics receive Eucharist at mass, how many people go to Confession regularly, and things such as that. Check out various statistics like that here (http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html).

It's unfair to tell her basically "I wouldn't have a problem with being considered part a Church I want to distance myself from so you shouldn't have a problem with it".

Phantom
February 11th, 2012, 05:43 PM
Just to clarify, I am female.

But Toujours is right on everything else.

Oryx
February 11th, 2012, 05:46 PM
Hahah that was my fault, sorry! xD;;; I fix!

2Cool4Mewtwo
February 11th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Well I didn't say every conflict included religion.

For other reasons atheists might consider religion an enemy. [bunch of tl;dr links that I've glossed over]

It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

1. Yes there is. The Arch Diocese or local church keeps records of each Confirmation. I don't have authorization to view private files. Sorry.
2. Excommunication is still the CCC, so no, it's no 'obsolete'.MODERN EXCOMMUNICATION (http://atheism.about.com/od/ideasforatheistactivism/a/Excommunication.htm)
3. List of Excommunicated people. Including 21st century. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_excommunicated_by_the_Roman_Catholic_Church#21st_century)
4. It's a personal preference, which I've already explained.

Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

Phantom
February 11th, 2012, 07:40 PM
It's a sad reality, but I believe that Atheists and Theists will never get together, because I doubt that many theists are tolerant of atheist views, "my kind," where I tolerate those views to certain degree, is an exception.

It may sound funny and nonsensical to you, but religious people hold their views in a very high regard, and God is, as you know, highest of all beings. Condemning those values (such as saying they don't exist, they're killing people) is basically synonymous to insulting and committing sacrilege, therefore there will be less trust on atheists. It's only my thoughts, though.

If you still don't get it, it's like somebody insulting your parents, your friends... or whoever else that you hold in high regard.

Wait, what?

I certainly don't agree with last 2 paragraphs I wrote, though. It's just way many religious people believe. I can understand why some atheists think the way they do (I admit, I was "close" to being Atheist last summer). It does irritate me, however, if they form their arguments out of their own assumptions and/or exert some sort of superiority complex. (example: "my opinion is better than urs", "your opinion is dumb cuz u cant even prove it", "lol im smarter cuz i proved u wrong"... etc)

Ignorance on my part, if everything you said is true. (also goes for what toujours said). Honestly, I learn something new everyday, even from people who I don't have the same ideals with. That's not bad, I guess.

If you adamantly don't want to be the part of the 65 million (or whatever the number is), and if your archbishop fervently refuses to take your name off for whatever reason, just hire a lawyer in the near future and see what they can do for you. I can't help you further on this issue, I'm afraid.

1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

Oryx
February 11th, 2012, 07:53 PM
Idk, I would be more forgiving tbh. He backed down from his point and realized that he was wrong, what more do you want from him? Lol

I wouldn't say saying that God doesn't exist is like insulting your parents, because it's not an insult. God is like a parent to many, yeah, that's why he's the Father and such, but when you say he doesn't exist, it's not an insult per se. If you said "God does exist but he's evil", that would be a different thing, and I think a small minority does believe that, but I think the general atheist belief is "the idea of your God is nice, if only he existed". I can't think of a more apt analogy though, lol.

Phantom
February 11th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Oh, I'm not mad. I'm just giving advice. Before you come to a debate you should know something about what you're talking about.

Look all I want is to have my name off. It's personal and might not make sense to an outsider, but I'm not doing it to make sense to anyone, I'm doing it for me.

QuilavaKing
February 12th, 2012, 12:42 AM
I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?

Trying my best not to step on my toes. Just genuinely curious.

Sodom
February 12th, 2012, 03:39 PM
To be honest, I've never seen an atheist try to convince others that God doesn't exist. I'm not denying it happens because I'm certain it does, but I've never seen the situation occur so I can't judge it from that standpoint or speak with any degree of certainty. I've never tried to convince others myself that God doesn't exist either - I know he doesn't exist, and I feel like it would be a waste of energy trying to use logic to fight faith when all logic can do is provide proof that God doesn't exist while faith, by definition, is blind and does not require proof. I prefer to denounce religion rather than the belief in God, which are two very separate things.

But thinking about it, this is my speculation. Since the atheists in question are trying to pull people away from God, it's seen as sinister while the Christians who are trying to force people into him can only be seen as at the very least well-intentioned. But I think it's possible that the atheists have good intentions as well. Atheists are atheists for a reason, and the ones who are militant enough to try to convert people would have less than favourable views of religion. It makes sense to me that they would be trying to help or save people as well by attempting to show them that they don't need to live in fear of divine retribution or live by the often perverse restrictions that religion provides.

jpp8
February 12th, 2012, 06:23 PM
I feel in the same vein as Shining Raichu. God and Jesus sound like pretty cool guys in the same vein that Superman and Batman sound like pretty cool guys (OK, maybe not so much God, people should take notes from Jesus). I've no problem really if you like those folks because everyone has their own personal favorite characters and that you are not imposing your opinions on everyone systematically. However, I have less than favorable views of how the institutions known as "religion" have integrated within our governments and corporations in order to enforce their interests upon the entirety of the population in the name of those awesome people. I really could care less that your institution promotes love, peace, charity, and all that when they're systematically forcing the populace to practice their outdated social beliefs in legislation, such as treating women and LGBT+ persons as second-class.

As for atheist denial of god, it's one thing for religion to be a spiritual exploration of the self. It's another to be a fundamentalist who outright denies research and experimental facts because of god. Because of the volume of the outcries of many such fundamentalists, to atheists, the concept of a god is more of a monument to anti-intellectualism than and all powerful and benevolent being from which morals should be derived.

Charlie Kelly
February 12th, 2012, 11:06 PM
Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I have a somewhat related-ish question that I've wondered about for a very long time. Why are atheists (the ones I meet anyway) always hellbent on convincing others that God doesn't exist?

I understand that Christians do it far more, but they do it to help/save people, and should (ideally, though probably not always) have only good intentions. As far as I can tell, there's no reason other than that they think Christians are stupid, is there?I think it's assumed far too often that Christians are doing it to help anyone but themselves. I feel like more often it's just the fact they don't want to share a world with non-Christians, and though they may never be friends with those ex-gays and former satanist-witches, they could think about tolerating them once they handed their lives over to their god. I equate it to a black family moving into an all-white neighborhood and only being somewhat accepted when they start acting like the white families.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.

QuilavaKing
February 12th, 2012, 11:54 PM
Joining. God doesn't exist, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship him.

I think Atheists are mostly disgruntled due to the fact that they are looked down upon by those who are preaching something they have no evidence of. Atheists probably have about as good of intentions as Christians, who they believe are wasting their lives on something that doesn't exist.
This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

Phantom
February 13th, 2012, 12:22 AM
This is pretty much what I'm talking about actually.

Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!

QuilavaKing
February 13th, 2012, 01:59 PM
Sigh.

You must also understand; You're in a ATHEIST CLUB. Not that you're not welcome. It's just that things here will naturally be more geared toward atheism than theism.

I agree with Shining Raichu with what he said about your question.

But also think this. It's not about 'convincing' a theist that they're wrong. It's trying to explain our point. Example. John is a Christian. Bill is an atheist. Note very corny.

John: Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian.
Bill: Oh, hi. I'm Bill.
John: You're Christian too?
Bill: No, I'm not. I'm atheist.
John: What?
Bill: Atheist. It means I don't believe in god.
John: So what religion are you?
Bill: I don't have one.
John: How can you not believe in God?
Bill: *Begins explaining*
John: Why are you talking to me like I'm stupid?
Bill: I'm just trying to explain to you why I don't think god exists.
John: *gives standard 'explain this then if there's no god' argument*
Bill: But that can't be because of 'x' reason.
John: Why are you trying to convince me there's no god?
Bill: I'm not. I'm just saying why I think there's no god.

And it repeats like that. Atheist gets asked a question. They answer with what they know. They get accused of trying to turn people from god.

Also note. If you're talking about us. It's the internet. I definately wouldn't say the things I said here to someone in real life. Here we can be more exact and more... straightforward with our arguments.

Also also, it's a debate. That's just what a debate is.

EDIT: Continuing conversation;

Top Believer's weirdest reasons they know god exists. (that I've heard)
1. Unmoved Mover Philosphy
2. Bananas: Literally god's fruit.
3. Because Venus in Retrograde
4. The Bible proves it.
5. Personal Experience
6. Complexity Argument
7. The Human Eye
8. Pascal's Wager
9. Watchmaker Theory
10. BECAUSE I KNOW IT
and a bonus for proof of creation
*Second Law of Thermodynamics!
Oh, I know. I'm just saying that most Atheists that I meet act like that, regardless of setting. Some even bully Christians irl etc. Quite a few of my closer friends are like that actually, although we've never discussed our beliefs, I've just seen them doing it to other people.

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone?

Oryx
February 13th, 2012, 02:15 PM
And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone?

I've had to explain agnosticism to people in the past, lol.

But I think it's somewhat along the lines of the people that are both argumentative and atheist (not everyone obviously but they do exist) feel often as if they're "educating" the other person. Since many atheists come from a religious background and they 'saw the light' and turned to the logic of atheism, they could feel like the religious person is only religious because they haven't seen the light of logic. It's similar to the Christians who evangelize - they want to help people by helping them see the light of God and live a holy life, while atheists want to help people by helping them see the light of logic and live an intellectual life.

Although I've never heard an atheist irl try to convince someone they're wrong, and even online I've seen arguments towards Christians in general but never one where one atheist tries to convince one Christian that their way is the right way. I have seen it flipped though, both irl and online.

Sodom
February 13th, 2012, 04:06 PM
Hey Charlie, welcome! :D

And I honestly don't know of anyone who doesn't know what Atheism is. Have you actually had to explain it to anyone

Yeah, I have lol - my stupid grandmother. I spent a good fifteen minutes trying to convince her that such a thing even existed. She was so far removed from reality that she couldn't even conceive of a state of mind in which someone does not believe in God. She liked me a lot less after that conversation lol

QuilavaKing
February 13th, 2012, 05:38 PM
I've had to explain agnosticism to people in the past, lol.

But I think it's somewhat along the lines of the people that are both argumentative and atheist (not everyone obviously but they do exist) feel often as if they're "educating" the other person. Since many atheists come from a religious background and they 'saw the light' and turned to the logic of atheism, they could feel like the religious person is only religious because they haven't seen the light of logic. It's similar to the Christians who evangelize - they want to help people by helping them see the light of God and live a holy life, while atheists want to help people by helping them see the light of logic and live an intellectual life.

Although I've never heard an atheist irl try to convince someone they're wrong, and even online I've seen arguments towards Christians in general but never one where one atheist tries to convince one Christian that their way is the right way. I have seen it flipped though, both irl and online.
I think it's likely that we don't notice it nearly as much when we agree with the ones doing the preaching/bullying. I'm sure Christians do it far more than I realize, though it is kind of our job, so I've definitely seen it happen. lol

Sodom
February 13th, 2012, 06:50 PM
though it is kind of our job

This fascinates me. It's your job to turn more people into Christians?

QuilavaKing
February 13th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Well, pretty much. Considering what we believe happens to people who aren't saved, you'd be a pretty horrible person if you didn't want to save* as many people as possible. I mean, if I could go back and time and save Hitler I would do it without a second thought. I don't think anyone deserves hell, no matter what they've done.


*By which, I mean making them Christians so they go to heaven, not hell.

Sodom
February 13th, 2012, 07:34 PM
So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?

Oryx
February 13th, 2012, 07:40 PM
I think it's likely that we don't notice it nearly as much when we agree with the ones doing the preaching/bullying. I'm sure Christians do it far more than I realize, though it is kind of our job, so I've definitely seen it happen. lol

I can confirm that I have never ever heard someone irl do that. But I went to a Catholic high school and now a Catholic college, so if students were anything it was mostly nonreligious because actual atheism is so far from the values they were trying to instill in us. Still, of all the atheists I did know, you would never have been able to tell they were an atheist unless we started expressly discussing religion. I didn't know my DM in college was an atheist until I invited him to the God Debate on campus and he mentioned that the atheist debater was a role model of his, and this was probably 6-8 months after I met him.

This fascinates me. It's your job to turn more people into Christians?

I think there's something somewhere that says all Christians (or Catholics at least) are supposed to evangelize with everything they do and try to least the 'stray sheep' back into the flock. Think of it this way - say you were in a group of people that actually drank water. The rest of the people were slowly dying since they wouldn't drink any water. You would try to convince them to drink water, right? It's kind of that way, but spiritual. The idea is to "help" people that don't believe so they can be saved as well.

QuilavaKing
February 13th, 2012, 08:04 PM
So would you say that under your beliefs, the members of this club are going to Hell?
Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)

I think there's something somewhere that says all Christians (or Catholics at least) are supposed to evangelize with everything they do and try to least the 'stray sheep' back into the flock. Think of it this way - say you were in a group of people that actually drank water. The rest of the people were slowly dying since they wouldn't drink any water. You would try to convince them to drink water, right? It's kind of that way, but spiritual. The idea is to "help" people that don't believe so they can be saved as well.Yeah, pretty much. I mean, if someone was going to commit suicide, and you thought you could stop them, and make them feel happy again, wouldn't you? It's more or less the same.

2Cool4Mewtwo
February 13th, 2012, 08:44 PM
1. Don't act like you know everything, then step off your high horse when you are found wrong.
2. On lawyers. Separation of Church and State. It's a thingie now.
3. It sounds like you hold yourself in high regard. A bit of an egotistic nature, if you don't mind me saying. Here's a thing. Argue only about what you know.

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

Phantom
February 13th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Sadly yes, though the only thing that's necessary to go to heaven is to genuinely believe in god, and ask him to be part of your life through prayer, which anyone can do at any point, even someone like Hitler, as I said earlier. (For me anyway, I guess some other versions are more involved, though I can't believe that rituals like what phantom described could possibly be necessary.)


Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,

1 Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.” 3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

Baptism is for the removal of Original Sin; which cannot be removed from confession.

So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I said nothing of the sort.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Command/imperative sentences? I'm not sure what you mean, that's just how I talk? *confused*

I never insulted intelligence! I will admit I was upset when I wrote that. But I explained later what I meant. I was just giving advice, take it or leave it.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.


If you know anything about debates you should know never to take anything personal. This is why this particular discussion is always a hard topic.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.

Don't judge all people on the premise that you don't like the few that you've met. That's wrong. The thing is you're doing what a lot of people do in this debate, you're taking things to a personal level. The members of this 'aliance' are just stating facts. Sorry if my way of stating them in a list is wrong? or something? It's just how I organize my thoughts. You're lashing back for your beliefs, which is fine and understandable. Getting angry or upset is something to be avoided, a hard thing to do.

Phantom (and only him, please) : If you're REALLY bothered by this comment, you can PM me about it. I don't want to look like chickening out of this. Don't expect me to be nice to you, though.

Like I said before, don't take debates personal.

Also, again. I am a woman, thank you very much.

QuilavaKing
February 13th, 2012, 09:22 PM
So you've found out that I do have a tendency to have strong conviction in my beliefs until I'm proven wrong. Congratulations. I'm not the only person in the Earth who's like this.

I don't know everything about all this, so I've made some assumptions and I was proven wrong, and I even admitted that I was ignorant on this subject, and now you're just rubbing it in my face, especially using command/imperative sentences to make me look like I'm your student or something (which I'm not). It's really a daft move if you ask me. I thought you were smart about this. I guess not.

Here's a fact: People win and lose in debates and discussions practically every time. Even scholars in Oxford & Cambridge Universities (arguably some of the best universities in the world) are proven wrong in debates sometimes.

I don't think I'll ever argue with anybody in this thread again. It's absolutely pointless, especially when you guys have such high superiority complex and try to make a complete mockery of someone who loses in an online discussion. Pathetic if you ask me.

That being said, I'm not coming back to this thread, either. I guess I know more about atheists in general now.
This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.

Phantom
February 13th, 2012, 09:33 PM
This is why I've been so careful about what I say here... because I didn't want this to happen to me. Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist. I understand that this is supposed to be a thread where you can safely do that, but I would appreciate it if you did tone it down a little bit when discussing things with Christians here.


I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.

Oryx
February 13th, 2012, 09:39 PM
Hitler was a baptized and confirmed Catholic. Theoritically, at least according to the RCC, he could go to heaven if he had gone to confession regularly. That or be in purgatory until he got to go to heaven. Who knows. Though according to history he left the church, but was never offically excommunicated.

According to the Bible, and Jesus, Baptism is needed in order to get to heaven. Source,



Baptism is for the removal of Original Sin; which cannot be removed from confession.

Even when I was Catholic, I still held the belief that after you died God/Jesus would reveal themselves to you and give you a chance to repent knowing that they do exist, and baptize/accept you right there if you repented. It mitigated the unfairness of the millions of people that don't even know Catholicism exists but are still good people to me.

If God did exist that's how I hope He would work honestly.

Edit@QK:

Though I will agree, you guys come off as somewhat elitist.

If you don't mind, would you quote some sentences that you believe are elitist-sounding? I looked through everything since you posted and tried to find something and all I saw was a slant towards atheism, which would be understandable given the nature of the club, lol.

Phantom
February 13th, 2012, 10:00 PM
http://www.piercedhearts.org/magisterium_church/splendor_truth/what_we_believe/what%20we%20believe_believe_after_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

Oryx
February 13th, 2012, 10:07 PM
http://www.piercedhearts.org/magisterium_church/splendor_truth/what_we_believe/what%20we%20believe_believe_after_death.htm

Purgatory; if you weren't a regular visitor to confession then you'd spend time there to 'wash away' sins.

The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of "Venial Sin" (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment - hell). Purgatory does not remove sin itself. When Jesus was cruxified he opened the way to heaven and freed the souls that were trapped in Purgatory. Purgatory removes the effects of sin.

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 -- or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

CCC 1026 By his death and Resurrection, Jesus Christ has "opened" heaven to us. The life of the blessed consists in the full and perfect possession of the fruits of the redemption accomplished by Christ. He makes partners in his heavenly glorification those who have believed in him and remained faithful to his will. Heaven is the blessed community of all who are perfectly incorporated into Christ.

CCC 1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

In order ensure heaven you need to go through with at least five of the seven sacrements. Go to confession once a week, receive the eucharist, be baptized, confirmed (if you older and get baptized they happen at the same time I believe), and recieve last rites.

There are even those that if a newborn is going to die they do emergency baptisms to get rid of original sin, but I think that is just a really old school thing? But I've seen it happen recently with my baby cousin who they thought was going to die.

Isn't Purgatory just for baptized people though? My belief applied equally to people that chose not to get baptized, that didn't have the chance to get baptized, people of other religions, and practicing and non-practicing Christians. It wasn't a "judge your dedication to God" kind of judgement either, just a judgement on if you were a good person and truly repented for your sins in life. So quite different from the idea of Purgatory. You're right about baptism/confirmation/first communion though, they all come at once if you're in high school or above when you come into the Church (I was 16 haha).

I don't know anything about emergency baptisms, but fun story: I was in RCIA with some family friends, and one of the women's father had just died. She was talking about it to the group and how his last moment were so unexpected that he didn't even get a chance to be baptized like he wanted, and one of the people replied, completely stonefaced, "Oh well. That means he can't go to Heaven." To a woman who had just lost her father suddenly. That wasn't really relevant but I just wanted to share that story haha. Sorry you can get back on topic now!

Phantom
February 13th, 2012, 10:59 PM
I really don't know off hand. I'd have to do some research.

Sodom
February 14th, 2012, 06:57 AM
"Atheists suck and are elitists" "No we don't stop assuming" etc

Alright, I know we've moved on now but just in case anybody was planning to continue down this road, that's enough. It's getting a bit personal and off-topic and we should all just leave it be because this kind of "debating" gets nobody anywhere. Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs. I would expect the same of any group in the religious genre; it is not specific to atheists.

Furthermore (and somewhat more importantly), I think if everybody paid more attention to what everybody else is saying rather than how they are saying it, we may all receive valuable educations in spite of ourselves.

Sadly yes
I'm actually quite comfortable with that. I'm more than willing to take my chances.

QuilavaKing
February 14th, 2012, 12:26 PM
I am confused as to how we are being elitist?

Also you should read my response for 2Cool4Mewtwo in my previous post.
Meh, maybe I'm wrong. It just felt that way to me, especially considering Mewtwo’s reaction. Sorry if I overreacted. lol

Though I think it's important to note that in a club house designed for any certain group of people, it is natural to expect a certain degree of elitism by that group toward those who come to challenge their beliefs.
Yeah, that's true. It doesn't really matter anyway. lol

Sodom
February 18th, 2012, 06:33 AM
Well I didn't mean y'all had to stop talking altogether lmao.

Here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-02-17/grief-mourning-religion-god-atheists/53136258/1) is an article I found interesting, about what it's like to grieve for lost loved ones as an atheist. How do you feel about the religious people who tell you that the death was "all part of God's plan" or that the deceased is now "an angel"? Obviously the comments are meant for comfort and the speakers have only the best of intentions, but would you react well to that if you were dealing with grief?

Pudz
February 18th, 2012, 12:26 PM
I generally jus' take it in stride. The thing is for a lot of people? It means a lot to /them/ to be able to comfort you with their faith. I find that very charming. I've discussed in-depth my beliefs on what happens when a person dies, but that doesn't stop me smiling and accepting condolences from someone with a theistic faith. When my best friend committed suicide in my teens, people often said things like "she's with God now"; and sure, I don't believe it, no, and it doesn't take away the memory of holding her in my arms when she died. But it /does/ let me know they care, and that means the world.

FrostPheonix
February 23rd, 2012, 02:24 AM
Rise Against- Make it Stop (September's Children)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP4clbHc4Xg)
A wonderful song. More on the topic on LGBT, but thought you guys might like it.

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

I saw the qoute used to say baptism is needed for heaven. I think 'born again' merely means placing your trust in god, and your spirit is reborn that way.

also saw most of you don't agree with catholicism... from what I saw, its mostly how they practice it. That happens because of misunderstanding; the church's actual stand I fully support.

Eпvy
February 23rd, 2012, 05:05 PM
Hello, I recently became an Atheist. I was originally an Atheist several years ago, but then I became a Christian again for a while... But this time I don't think there is any turning back for me. I understand a whole lot more about Christianity, its history, and other religions then I did before.

I don't know if anybody is still doing these, but I figured I would:

What are your opinions on subjects such as same-sex marriage, abortion, the death penalty, and so on? Why?
Same-Sex Marriage - There is no valid argument against it. Of course there are religious reasons. However, those reasons can not stand up in a government with separation of church and state.

Abortion - I know this is a strange position for an Atheist Progressive such as me, but: Personally, I just can't be for it. No matter what I see that baby as human life, and I think it's wrong to kill people no matter what. I think there are cases where it's not so black and white, though, like when the mother's life is in danger.

Death Penalty - Again, I'm against the killing of human life. So the people who will be sent to the death penalty are terrible people? So what? Make them spend the rest of their lives in prison. Killing them is an easy way out.

Why are your beliefs the way they are?
Well, to put my views on religion in perspective - I don't claim to know that there is no God, but I do claim that a God is highly unlikely, and for the record I think that the Christian God is much less likely than the general concept of a God, so I've pretty much completely disregarded that one.

In general, I believe the likelihood of a God is so low that there's no reason to live my life as if there is one. There is no proof or evidence. The world and universe being natural actually makes so much more sense to me.

EDIT: Oops, forgot to answer the question! I came to be an Atheist from a variety of things - Studying history, being exposed to Atheist arguments, and never being one strong in faith to begin with. I wasn't as indoctrinated as much as others, so when I began to realize that religion doesn't make sense, I was out of it fast.

Do you believe in any form of life after death?
No. Consciousness is confined to our brains and is just the interaction of chemicals.

Afterlife is a nice thought, especially to me for personal reasons regarding issues I'm having in my life. However, it's just not feasible.

If there were an afterlife, I would love for it to be reincarnation - reincarnation to live another human life right after this life dies.

Do you believe in aliens?
It's not so much a matter of belief, it's a matter of logic. The universe is HUGE, and we, with our incredibly limited knowledge, have already discovered quite a few planets within the life-sustaining range of their solar system. That doesn't prove life, no, but it just goes to show. Even in how little we can see, there are already chances.

Does your family and friends know about your faith? If no, why not?
My family doesn't know. I believe it's for the best that they don't. In regard to my friends, I will tell them if the proper place to tell them comes. Some friends know, some don't.

Do you think separation of church and state is different from freedom of religion?
They may not be the same thing, but you can't truthfully have freedom of religion without the separation of church and state. There are a great deal of different beliefs out there, and if one's beliefs become law, that's a problem.

There are places where separation of church and state can be iffy. Sadly, it seems like those issues are overlooked while something so simple that does not violate religious freedom in any way but does violate the separation of church and state (same-sex marriage) is blown up to be this big issue, never gets legalized for long, if it ever is legalized to begin with. I don't get it.

If God does exist, what do you think it would be like?
Depends on which God... If the Christian God existed, I'd think that the world would be completely different from how it is now. Well, honestly, I think that many things regarding the design of the universe, world, and living beings would be entirely different, but disregarding that, if the Bible were true to modern day, I'd think that God would be showing signs. Not vague signs. I'm talking like what happened in the Bible. Miracles would also happen a lot more often. And I'm not talking about miracles like "I got that job!" or even "that medical treatment was successful!" I'm talking like growing of new limbs, and happening without any medical assistance.

Additionally, if the Christian God were true, I don't think all of these other religions would exist.

What are your family's general religious beliefs?
My family is Christian - Not Fundamentalist. They're pretty liberal on the matter.

Sodom
March 15th, 2012, 01:43 AM
Welcome, Envy! I have added you to the club :)

What I find interesting is the amount of people who say their parents or friends don't know that they're atheists. It's almost like it's as big of a deal as being gay, where there has to be this involved 'coming out' process. It might just be the area where I live, but... is it really that big of a deal?

QuilavaKing
March 15th, 2012, 02:43 AM
It is a big deal.

It's basically the same as walking up to your parents and saying "Hi, mom. I'm going to totally forsake everything you've taught me, and burn in hell for all eternity. kthxbai" (Assuming they're Christian anyway.)

My mom took me coming out as gay fairly well, because I was still Christian, and thus still safe. Being an atheist would be a much bigger deal.

Sodom
March 15th, 2012, 04:12 AM
I think coming out as gay means so much more though; to a parent in particular. It means they are far less likely to get the grandchildren they invariably desire and it means the dreams they had for you of the white picket fences and the beautiful wife (or dashing husband in the case of girls) come crashing down and lay shattered about them - only to be replaced by you with another man (or woman)... in the bedroom. Which in the case of gay people is the first place a person's mind will go.

With an atheist, it changes nothing about their life, just their potential afterlife. I understand that if it goes against the values a parent tries to teach you then it's a big deal... but is it really on the same scale?

Magic
March 15th, 2012, 04:45 AM
~Join me up :3 I am an Athiest.

I seem to come to quite a different background/area to most of you, as here Athiesm is practically the norm. That being said I am at university studying Science, which probably has something to do with it.

I don't approve of organised religion, however I do respect individual beliefs. My boyfriend is a Christian, and one who is very certain and proud of his faith. Sometimes we clash heads, but mostly in the spirit of debate rather than just an argument over who is right. The reason (most of the time) I find it easy to accept his faith is that he is not what I'd call an ignorant religious person - he acknowledges scientific theories (like Evolution) and simply refers to it as God's work, saying he put that in place. When people outright deny science is when I do look down on them.

There are things in religion I simply don't understand. For example: Why do religious people feel the need to congregate? Surely a one-on-one prayer with your God is better than being dictated to on what to say, what to pray for, etc. at a sermon?

Also, from my point of view.

A Christian (or other relgious people) works hard, and is nice to others, for a pay-off in the afterlife.

When Athiests are nice to people it is because they want to be.

Sodom
March 16th, 2012, 03:00 AM
Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

Magic
March 16th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

Although him and his family are all Anglican (his dad is actually training to be a priest) they are all totally accepting of gay people though. It makes a change from 'the norm' and what people expect of christians.

That being said, my boyfriend doesn't like how the church is so anti gay wedding (although this is currently being reviewed in the UK) so he is looking to convert to become a Quaker (another sub-division of Christianity).

Apparently Quakers are effectively christians who actually do just good, their church services often revolve around conversation rather than being preached at and they allow and are happy to take part in gay civil ceromonies in their churches, which is the major draw in him converting.

Eпvy
March 16th, 2012, 05:48 AM
What I find interesting is the amount of people who say their parents or friends don't know that they're atheists. It's almost like it's as big of a deal as being gay, where there has to be this involved 'coming out' process. It might just be the area where I live, but... is it really that big of a deal?

I live in the Bible Belt. That's why.

In my family I think it would actually be preferable to come out as gay. My family (my parents), in particular, is rather liberal, so they aren't incredibly homophobic. However, they are very much believers, and my mom has pretty much implied to me that she doesn't think that non-believers can be as good of people by telling me that I need to date somebody who is a strong Christian. D:

I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/

QuilavaKing
March 16th, 2012, 12:02 PM
With an atheist, it changes nothing about their life, just their potential afterlife. I understand that if it goes against the values a parent tries to teach you then it's a big deal... but is it really on the same scale?
For a Christian, the afterlife is far more important than this life. So, it's actually on a much much grander scale.

Yay! Welcome SwiftSign!

I'm not sure how I'd go in a relationship with a Christian lol - like, I'm sure I could make it work without it being an issue, but I think at the same time there would be part of me thinking "you are gay and a Christian. Wake up. WAKE UP". I'm not proud of that and I totally recognise it's my issue; and the fact that I know that is why I think I could make it work.

But then also there's the issue of Christmas and Easter and whether or not we would go to church for those occasions and how religiously we celebrate them. Obviously we'd want to spend Christmas/Easter together, but I wouldn't want to set foot anywhere near a church yet they might; or at the very least they might feel the pressure of their family to do so. So yeah, there's always that to consider, and how it would affect the relationship.

I don't think many Christians go to church on Christmas. I definitely wouldn't. You're supposed to on Easter, though I haven't been to church in a few years anyway. While the church community is important, I wasn't raised with it, so I feel fairly out of place there.

(Sorry, it seems I can't help but make this thread about Christians, rofl. Got any other topics?)

Phantom
March 17th, 2012, 12:30 PM
I don't think many Christians go to church on Christmas. I definitely wouldn't. You're supposed to on Easter, though I haven't been to church in a few years anyway. While the church community is important, I wasn't raised with it, so I feel fairly out of place there.

Actually, in Catholicism, you're supposed to go to Church EVERY Sunday, as well as holy days of obligation, including; Christmas; Ash Wednesday; Easter (not just Easter Sunday, but Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and the Easter Vigil as well); The Epiphany; The Ascension; Immaculate Conception; Assumption; Saint Joseph; the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul; and All Saints Day.

Also you're supposed to go to Stations of the Cross during Lent, Confessions once a week (usually Saturdays or a LEAST annually), no meat on Fridays during Lent as well as Ash Wednesday (fish is ok), as well as observing Advent and it's Masses.

QuilavaKing
March 17th, 2012, 02:18 PM
For us, the only holiday that you're supposed to go to Church for is Easter, unless another holiday happens to land on Sunday.

I don't even know what most of those things you mentioned are.

Phantom
March 17th, 2012, 05:59 PM
Actually, in Catholicism, you're supposed to go to Church EVERY Sunday, as well as holy days of obligation, including; Christmas; (the birth of Christ) Ash Wednesday; (beginning of Lent) Easter (resurrection of Christ) (not just Easter Sunday (rising), but Holy Thursday (Last supper), Good Friday (death), and the Easter Vigil (only day without Christ, waiting for resurrection) as well); The Epiphany (visitation of the magi); The Ascension (Jesus' ascension into heaven); Immaculate Conception (Mary becomes pregnant); Assumption (Mary goes to heaven); Saint Joseph (celebration of Jesus' stepfather); the Apostles Saints Peter and Paul (celebration of Peter and Paul and their martyrdom); and All Saints Day. (celebrates all the saints)

Also you're supposed to go to Stations of the Cross during Lent (the 40 days before Easter which includes fasting and prayer and is very sad in general), Confessions (confessing your sins) once a week (usually Saturdays or a LEAST annually), no meat on Fridays during Lent as well as Ash Wednesday (fish is ok), as well as observing Advent (the days before Christmas) and it's Masses.

Bold is new stuffs.


Any questions feel free to ask. As a server I know A LOT about the Masses for the holy days.

Sodom
March 18th, 2012, 05:46 AM
QuilavaKing, question: If you had a serious partner, would you have any issue with them not going to Church with you for Easter?

I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/

I've come across this same problem. I've taken to replying. "I do believe in something: myself."

One of the problems I have found with religion is this message it teaches that 'without God, I am nothing'. I've heard that a lot, that you have to believe in him and his ability to provide for you. There is nothing in that message that says to believe in yourself and your own abilities - because after all, God provided those too.

I think that is terribly destructive, to tell people that God is the everything and you are nothing. I've always thought that everybody should believe in themselves above all else because in the end you're the only one that can get you what you need. Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.

Yoshikkko
March 18th, 2012, 06:57 AM
I also have some friends who say stuff like "you've got to believe in something". =/
Wow I never get that because I don't really put it out there that I don't believe or talk about it at all, but that's really stupid. Basically that's saying that if you don't believe in God you don't believe in anything else, so with that they are only acknowledging God as a belief, which is extremely hypocritical. It's called believing for a reason too, which is probably always my argument. Can I post here when I'm not a member? If not thennn sign me up I guess? XD

Eпvy
March 18th, 2012, 07:00 AM
I've come across this same problem. I've taken to replying. "I do believe in something: myself."

One of the problems I have found with religion is this message it teaches that 'without God, I am nothing'. I've heard that a lot, that you have to believe in him and his ability to provide for you. There is nothing in that message that says to believe in yourself and your own abilities - because after all, God provided those too.

I think that is terribly destructive, to tell people that God is the everything and you are nothing. I've always thought that everybody should believe in themselves above all else because in the end you're the only one that can get you what you need. Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.

You could go further and say that two hands working are infinitely more valuable than one thousand (or more) hands clasped in prayer. lol

I see this constantly, people not giving credit where it's due. They don't give credit to themselves, nor do they give credit to anybody else. It's always to this 'God'. But when a tragedy strikes they shift the blame. =/

I do think it's sad though. Like when one goes through a surgery to save their life, and it is successful. The family and friends always thank this God for saving that person's life, while the professionals who did the surgery get no credit. The absurdity of it is very clear. If this 'God' answered any prayers the person wouldn't be having that surgery to begin with.

I just can't believe we still believe this stuff in our modern day society. I don't mean that to be rude, I know that being religious or not being religious has nothing to do with intelligence. It has more to do with being caught in the web of religion, one that is very hard to get out of with all of the fear-mongering (Hell) and the various defense mechanisms that believers have created over time to try to cover up the issues.

QuilavaKing
March 18th, 2012, 12:51 PM
QuilavaKing, question: If you had a serious partner, would you have any issue with them not going to Church with you for Easter?
Like I said, I haven't gone to church in a few years anyway, which includes Easter. lol

But assuming that I started to go again, I would ask them to come with me, but if they say no, then they say no. My dad is agnostic, and he swore that he would become a Christian when he married my mom, and he went to church for a few months, and hasn't been back since. They've been married 39 years.

So, I'm not going to bother trying to change whoever I end up with, especially considering how most Gays view Christians. (Or rather, how most Christians view Gays.)

That said, I don't believe that God hates gays, and I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think Christians have misinterpreted the Bible, and are now using it as an excuse to run away from something they don't understand.

Two hands working are infinitely more valuable than two hands clasped in prayer.
I personally believe that you should pray while you work. My mom believes that you should just pray about something, and then let God do all the work, and forget it ever existed... but even if you do believe in God, you should know that he won't directly intervene. He will send someone else to do the work for him. Why not be his messenger yourself?

FrostPheonix
March 19th, 2012, 01:16 AM
Been some time since I posted ^^. Don't know half of you, so just so you guys know, I'm Christian. Should help explain the motive behind any of my responses.

That said, I don't believe that God hates gays, and I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think Christians have misinterpreted the Bible, and are now using it as an excuse to run away from something they don't understand.
Personally, I'm against same sex relationships but really have nothing against them... I mean, they can do what they want. It is their life, after all. But I still don't think that was what God intended. But no Bible verses I kno of.


I personally believe that you should pray while you work. My mom believes that you should just pray about something, and then let God do all the work, and forget it ever existed... but even if you do believe in God, you should know that he won't directly intervene. He will send someone else to do the work for him. Why not be his messenger yourself?

I agree with that. I saw this little comic once, where this guy prayed most of the time before a test and then got an F. He was surprised, but hey, he didn't study/review one bit. God won't help you if you don't try.


but yeah, I'm starting to think that we could switch topics like quilava suggested...? It seems to me that we are slowly spiralling towards a state of mind where we talk about why Christians are wrong... but, dunno what we may talk about. Maybe presence of alien life?