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Doomineon
June 23rd, 2011, 01:59 PM
Hello, everyone. As you can tell, I'm a newbie around here, but I have been tinkering around on battling. I find that I like the more unusual monsters, but my support teams are unfortunately pretty textbook. If anyone has unusual ideas, I'm more than happy to try them out. Excuses aside, I've been having a lot of fun on Random Matchup with these guys:

Cinccino @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Technician
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252Att/252Spe/4Def
-Bullet Seed
-Rock Blast
-Endure
-Flail

This is perhaps the most quirky and endearing little creature Game Freak could come up with. She actually has decent enough stats, and getting STAB on Flail with Silk Scarf brings it up to an ungodly 340 base after Enduring a hit. The only way that this could be better is a nice Liechi Berry, but those haven't been released, yet. For the support moves, Bullet Seed can easily get a Vaporeon into the yellow on its minimal two-three hits and annoys Jellicent, too. Rock Blast downs Volcarona within those first two hits.

Zweilous @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252Att/252Spe/4HP
-Outrage
-Crunch
-Return
-Roar

I'll openly admit that this is gimmicky, but somehow, he's really working for me. With the Choice Scarf and Hustle, you're looking at a faster version of a standard Salamence with 205 Attack and 181 Speed (at 50). STAB Outrage will easily outrun and one-shot Latios. Even with the dive in accuracy to 80%, it's a rare occasion to entirely miss, and Zweilous's surprisingly good defenses at least ensure that you can take another crack at it against neutral damage. Obviously, he has issues with a lot of Steels, just like Cinccino, so I'm more than open to the last slot being rewritten.

Lucario @ Leftovers/Life Orb
Ability: Steadfast
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252SpA/252Spe/4Def
-Nasty Plot
-Flash Cannon
-Vacuum Wave
-Aura Sphere

A beast of necessity, Nasty Plot saved the Special Lucario build. Aside from very specific counters, he can easily set up and blast through Ferrothorn, Chansey/Blissey, Skarmory, and other threats. His one common weakness is Jellicent, but otherwise, he is able to boost and blast through the most aggravating Shell Smashers and stone walls.

Archeops @ Flying Gem
Ability: Defeatist
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252Att/252Spe/4HP
-Stone Edge
-U-Turn
-Acrobatics
-Earthquake

Everyone's been through the same love-hate round with Archeops as I have. He's arguably the coolest fossil design since Kabutops but his ability is awful. This guy is usually a complement to scouting Cinccino and works beautifully while he lasts. Acrobatics/Flying Gem is the most underrated combo out there. While a Sitrus Berry could boost him over the 1/2 HP mark that haunts his footsteps, the sheer power of Acrobatics and Flying Gem make sure there's not a threat on the field to wear him down. Mostly, he gets his kills in off prediction and scouting, so a lot of attention must be paid to the field. Otherwise, he's surprisingly better than anticipated. I know I'll get jeered at for using him, but use one, and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Volcarona @ Leftovers/Choice Specs
Ability: Flame Body
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252SpA/252Spe/4HP
-Quiver Dance
-Bug Buzz
-Fire Blast
-Psychic

This is perhaps the biggest OU slugger out there, and for that, I find him a bit joyless. He's fun to bait people into thinking that you're using him, but otherwise, the fact that he can easily slam through most Pokemon without even setting up makes him dull. He's the insurance check, the safety net under the otherwise exhilarating tight rope, and the disclaimer clause. He inhibits all the fun just to look after you like a babysitter. I need to get rid of him, but every decent replacement is equally lackluster, so the best option is the worst. That said, he is VERY good at what he does. Psychic for those fighters that think they're clever when they try Stone Edge, and the others are pretty self-explanatory.

Starmie @ Life Orb/Choice Specs
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252SpA/252Spe/4HP
-Rapid Spin
-Surf
-Psychic
-Thunderbolt

Once again, another insurance check, Starmie gains the most ragequits of all my monsters. He's a shiny, has the right nature and IVs (Special Attack and Speed only), and is stunningly strong against Drizzle teams. Needless to say, he gets a lot of flack, but in a way, that's a bonus. Little known fact about GBU is that rage quitting and turning off the DS will result in a mark against your profile, disqualifying you from the next 'season', so he's a good way to make sure I don't see the most obnoxious people out there again. Out of mechanics, he's another dullard, but because I've had one of the little stars since Gen I with pretty much the same build, I'm kind of fond of him. It's kind of a mark of honor that something can keep the same build for so long and still be so good at it.

Well, there they are. I'm well aware that there are huge gaps in coverage when it comes to legendaries (I can never wrap my head around letting those on the field), but mostly, I want a spit shine on a few of these guys. Ideas/suggestions/criticisms are more than welcome as long as they come from a reasonable perspective and are presented respectably.

dreyko
June 23rd, 2011, 03:52 PM
so, for your lucario even thought it gets STAB on flash cannon i don't really see much use for that move. sure, its helpful to take out ice and rock types, but vacuum wave or aura sphere can do the job on just about every rock type and ice type. since your worried about jellicent countering lucario i suggest you use shadow ball over flash cannon because it will be super effective on jellicent and after a nasty plot boost it can possibly OHKO jellicent ( depending on spec def EV's).

to counter steel types just use volacrona or lucario. if you use lucario be careful of magnet pull magnezone because those almost always carry HP fire.

hope i helped a little bit =)

Doomineon
June 23rd, 2011, 09:01 PM
Nice. o.o I feel moronic for forgetting Shadow Ball, but thank you. I'll switch it over immediately. Any suggestions on a different Volcarona?

PlatinumDude
June 24th, 2011, 08:35 AM
Honestly, why Zweilous when you can use Haxorus? Sure, Zweilous has Hustle to boost its Attack, but it lowers the accuracy of your physical moves. Since Zweilous is rather slow and frail (without Eviolite), a miss can be costly. Give Haxorus a shot:
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Dragon Claw/Dual Chop
-Brick Break
Nature: Adamant/Jolly
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe
Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker

It might be a better idea to make Archeops Jolly so it can outspeed more opponents.

Use Life Orb on Volcarona.

Starmie could use Ice Beam over Psychic because Psychic doesn't offer a lot of coverage. Use the Choice Specs.

Cincinno gets easily raped by priority and sandstorm/hail. IMO, Mienshao can work well as a lead:
-Fake Out
-Hi Jump Kick
-U-turn
-Hidden Power (Ice)/Stone Edge
Nature: Jolly/Naive
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spe or 252 Atk/4 SAtk/252 Spe
Item: Life Orb/Normal Gem
Ability: Regenerator

Doomineon
June 24th, 2011, 03:54 PM
Shadow Ball is showing marked improvement already. Thank you for that. I guess I just subscribe to the old guns of "STAB is always best", but that's a nice fit for him.

I KNOW Zweilous looks mental, and I have seen Haxorus. By all accounts, I should really like him. He's strong with some decent options, has the underdog mentality standing next to Hydreigon, and...oh, yeah...he has an axe for a face and is literally called HAXorus. Haxorus is awesome and undeservedly ragged on when compared to other dragons, but the fact that he is the face (axe?) of underdogs and is so overused turns me away from using him. His obvious physicality is easily walled, and he can be VERY predictable.

Zweilous gives an interesting type combination with the mind games of being a novelty toy. He later becomes a Special sweeper in Hydreigon, so people incorrectly wall the middle brother of the family, and his stats are hardly "frail" at 72/70/70. More like, mediocre-good when standing next to some of the most prominent, fully-evolved monsters used in the field. Hax scrapes by on a 76/90/70 rating by comparison, so they're actually taking the same damage from Special users, and Hax can tower over Zwelly with his whole 4 HP more. While 20 more Defense sounds like a good idea, it's not saving Hax from a super-effective Outrage or Avalanche, so defenses are a moot point on both again. The accuracy deal is actually something of a misunderstanding for the large part. It's the mental stigma called the "availability heuristic" that we immediately draw on the most dreadful memories or dramatic, dire examples rather than the truth of things. If someone said, "You can have $95 guaranteed or $120 but only at a 85% chance," people invariably go for the sure $95, even though it's only a 15% chance of losing out on the $120. If that was a casino game, the house would be bankrupt. (Look at Fire Blast's golden reputation in spite of "only" 85% accuracy.) It's the same with the dive to 80% accuracy on Outrage and Crunch. I have a 1 in 5 chance of actually missing each time I choose the move.

Oh. And: 55-41110-89076

That said, I'm open to switching him out, just don't scoff and jeer that he's "weaker" by any means. Better yet, build one yourself and see what I mean. There's a thrill to using him like flying down the road in a super car or bungee jumping. If you fail, it's catastrophic, but you'll hardly be in a position to regret it because the most the opponent can walk away with is "I've beaten a Zweilous and a Cinccino today". If you don't fall on your face, it's a blast. I'll sack "better" Pokemon just to have fun with the game.

I am warming to the idea of changing Starmie over to Ice Beam. Mostly, it was a good idea for jamming a wrench in the spokes of the Fighting engines, but Archeops is more than capable on that front. Still, I'm leery of using the thing if I can find a suitable replacement.

I've used Mienshao. He's great, but once again, very predictable. I even tried a Baton Passing Swords Dancer that would offer more in the way of support for the team, but he also gets dull. Cinccino's one that I send out early to scout or setup and sweep, but once again, Archeops is doing another team mate's job better, so I'm happy to retire the little PETA mascot, but I want her place to be taken by something unique. I'm a bit eccentric like that, but it works if I pour enough thought into it. I just don't want a cut-and-paste OU team that is completely safety nets and checks. A couple are fine, but having that something extra keeps the field from being boring, right?

Fairy
June 24th, 2011, 05:13 PM
I KNOW Zweilous looks mental, and I have seen Haxorus. By all accounts, I should really like him. He's strong with some decent options, has the underdog mentality standing next to Hydreigon, and...oh, yeah...he has an axe for a face and is literally called HAXorus. Haxorus is awesome and undeservedly ragged on when compared to other dragons, but the fact that he is the face (axe?) of underdogs and is so overused turns me away from using him. His obvious physicality is easily walled, and he can be VERY predictable.

Zweilous gives an interesting type combination with the mind games of being a novelty toy. He later becomes a Special sweeper in Hydreigon, so people incorrectly wall the middle brother of the family, and his stats are hardly "frail" at 72/70/70. More like, mediocre-good when standing next to some of the most prominent, fully-evolved monsters used in the field. Hax scrapes by on a 76/90/70 rating by comparison, so they're actually taking the same damage from Special users, and Hax can tower over Zwelly with his whole 4 HP more. While 20 more Defense sounds like a good idea, it's not saving Hax from a super-effective Outrage or Avalanche, so defenses are a moot point on both again. The accuracy deal is actually something of a misunderstanding for the large part. It's the mental stigma called the "availability heuristic" that we immediately draw on the most dreadful memories or dramatic, dire examples rather than the truth of things. If someone said, "You can have $95 guaranteed or $120 but only at a 85% chance," people invariably go for the sure $95, even though it's only a 15% chance of losing out on the $120. If that was a casino game, the house would be bankrupt. (Look at Fire Blast's golden reputation in spite of "only" 85% accuracy.) It's the same with the dive to 80% accuracy on Outrage and Crunch. I have a 1 in 5 chance of actually missing each time I choose the move.


Relax. You don't need to defend yourself from us or prove anything. We're nice people, I promise! :D


That said, I'm open to switching him out, just don't scoff and jeer that he's "weaker" by any means. Better yet, build one yourself and see what I mean. There's a thrill to using him like flying down the road in a super car or bungee jumping. If you fail, it's catastrophic, but you'll hardly be in a position to regret it because the most the opponent can walk away with is "I've beaten a Zweilous and a Cinccino today". If you don't fall on your face, it's a blast. I'll sack "better" Pokemon just to have fun with the game.


Maybe you'd fair well in UU or something along those lines? There's plenty of "unconventional" Pokemon there and it's a neat battling experience.

To get back on topic, Starmie does well with Recover if you're using the Life Orb. Wish I had more to say! xD

Best of luck to you!

Vrai
June 24th, 2011, 06:13 PM
I KNOW Zweilous looks mental, and I have seen Haxorus. By all accounts, I should really like him. He's strong with some decent options, has the underdog mentality standing next to Hydreigon, and...oh, yeah...he has an axe for a face and is literally called HAXorus. Haxorus is awesome and undeservedly ragged on when compared to other dragons, but the fact that he is the face (axe?) of underdogs and is so overused turns me away from using him. His obvious physicality is easily walled, and he can be VERY predictable.

Zweilous gives an interesting type combination with the mind games of being a novelty toy. He later becomes a Special sweeper in Hydreigon, so people incorrectly wall the middle brother of the family, and his stats are hardly "frail" at 72/70/70. More like, mediocre-good when standing next to some of the most prominent, fully-evolved monsters used in the field. Hax scrapes by on a 76/90/70 rating by comparison, so they're actually taking the same damage from Special users, and Hax can tower over Zwelly with his whole 4 HP more. While 20 more Defense sounds like a good idea, it's not saving Hax from a super-effective Outrage or Avalanche, so defenses are a moot point on both again. The accuracy deal is actually something of a misunderstanding for the large part. It's the mental stigma called the "availability heuristic" that we immediately draw on the most dreadful memories or dramatic, dire examples rather than the truth of things. If someone said, "You can have $95 guaranteed or $120 but only at a 85% chance," people invariably go for the sure $95, even though it's only a 15% chance of losing out on the $120. If that was a casino game, the house would be bankrupt. (Look at Fire Blast's golden reputation in spite of "only" 85% accuracy.) It's the same with the dive to 80% accuracy on Outrage and Crunch. I have a 1 in 5 chance of actually missing each time I choose the move.

The only thing I wanted to point out is that Haxorus, indeed, is not easily walled. If you've ever messed around with one to the degree that I have you'd understand completely. Choice Band (indeed - Haxorus' only set where it isn't outclassed by something else and thus the best one to use at all times) is not easily walled by anything. In all honesty, the only things I've seen flat-out wall Haxorus' Outrage are Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Forretress. Bronzong loses to a well-timed Earthquake (remember, Mold Breaker). Other Steels, like Scizor, get 2HKOd by Outrage while Haxorus' decent bulk absorbs a Bullet Punch. In fact, his ability to break most Dragon-type counters is so good that he's often deemed a wall-breaker for other sweepers. He's not easily walled because he's predictable. That's one of the biggest problems I've seen in newer battlers or those with less experience - just because something is "predictable" or "overused" does not make it not-good. There are reasons why people use things, and for the most part that is that they are good.

If you don't want to use Pokémon that are overused, work in another tier such as UU. Really, the best way to win is to embrace the more used Pokémon and use them to your advantage - winning with lesser-used Pokémon is substantially more difficult because lesser-used Pokémon are more often than not of... well, lesser quality. If you want to use things like Zweilous, more power to you! I just think it'd be significantly easier for you to win if you used such Pokémon in an environment where they can be used more easily and effectively. OU is a place where the top dogs rule, and there is a reason why they're the top dogs.

Doomineon
June 25th, 2011, 12:27 AM
o.o Wow. I do tend to get wrapped up in a debate and not realize I might come across as upset. I'm sorry. I'm really not terse or anything like that, and I like this place because you guys can have some interesting discussions beyond "Dragonite sux, use Salamence!". I've tried UU before, and it tends to be OUish with the same teams of 6-10 Pokemon that never budge from their set moulds. I figure, OU has the most Pokemon available to them (because you can count the "lower" tiers), so it's a real crime not to draw on that sensational range. Mostly, I'm of the opinion that the stronger Pokemon are fine, but for personal satisfaction, I can't be content to piggyback off another's success. That is *just* my opinion and shouldn't make the game any less enjoyable to others. In a way, finding the next big superstar build will inevitably make it a "top dog" that others will write off as "too strong", so going against the grain for the sole purpose of being the maverick is a moot point. For me, it's a signature or flair to keep the game exciting.

That said, I have tried Haxorus and have one on my in game team because he's got a cute mug. He's really good, but I've poured over his different builds and have found him lacking a bit in that certain X factor. Unfortunately, the immediate and obvious solution to Haxorus appearing on the field IS Skarmory, Ferrothorn, etc that everyone has waiting in the wings. THAT'S the frustrating predictability of him to me: The immediate solution is the most ready and obvious. Hence, the mind games of Zweilous are more appealing, and the power stands up to comparison.

But once again, I'm willing to trade him in for something comparable in nature. If there's a big hole against some of the common OU threats, I need to patch that before the ship sinks. So far, I'm winning at least half the battles I get into with these guys (including rage quits), but I'd like to keep up the illusion that I can out-think the field from time to time. Are there common threats to the overall team? That would be a great place to really start trading out Cinccino or Zwelly.

v.v Starmie, for all its shininess and good Special Attack and Speed IVs is rather a sorry story defensively. Recover is a great move, but unfortunately, he's worn down or swept if he takes a turn to breathe. I'd like it if he lasted longer, but at the end of the day, he exists to come in and sweep or revenge kill.

I hope you guys don't think I'm just sticking to the guns to be stubborn. By no means am I ragging on the standards of OU. If anything, I tilt my hat toward them for being such reliable threats that Volcarona, Starmie, and Lucario made it onto the team to begin with. I just want to keep that last inch of personality to the mix, which is the fun of the game to begin with, so defensively, what am I looking at? Thank you guys again, and sorry if I seemed uppity or terse.