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wolf
June 23rd, 2011, 09:07 PM
COMPETITIVE BATTLING CHATA lot of people have asked for some kind of casual chat since the (second) DCC met its end several months ago, so we are putting one up! We do want to stress that this is not going to be like either of the old DCCs, so we'll define the general aim of this thread.

This thread is for laid back chat and discussion about any aspect of competitive battling, free from serious, heated debates as well as the kind of spam, intimidation, and trolling that accompanied the old DCCs.

It's as simple as that. There are only a few ground rules for this thread:

— Follow all Competitive Battling Center Rules (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=255515).

— Do not stray from the realm of competitive battling in this thread.
This is mostly just to prevent it from becoming a third edition of the DCC.

— Try to avoid getting into huge debates.
You can disagree and contest points, but this is supposed to be a casual chat. When you start breaking each post down into several points and then countering each one, it has probably gotten a little too serious.

— Be respectful.
Again, let's not make this DCC 3.0, okay? This is really obvious and we trust that everyone will be civil!

If things get too off-topic or serious, a mod will post a friendly reminder. This is mostly just to give everyone a place to enjoy a more relaxed atmosphere, especially since competitive battling can get a little intense sometimes!

Enjoy!

.Aero
June 23rd, 2011, 09:12 PM
Let's hit the ground rolling with a question I just came up with!

How do you deal with SmashPass teams?
With the addition of Baton Pass to Mirror Bounce Espeon, SmashPass teams have risen in usage and can easily thrash most unprepared opponents. Phazing options are extremely limited when Espeon is still around as it can simply Magic Bounce your Whirlwind/Roar right back at you and baton pass right back to Gorebyss.

I don't ladder often, but I figure my best bet at this moment is with Amoonguss and Clear Smog. It can't be taunted, or reflected, and since he's grass, he can take a hit or so from Gorebyss if it decides to stay in and Surf/Scald. If the opponent switches to Espeon, it's too late because Clear Smog would be my first move. :D

Lalapizzame
June 23rd, 2011, 09:21 PM
It seems to me that the new round of voting from Smogon has provoked some opposition from regulars on our forum, perhaps most vocally on Garchomp, now formally banned from OU / Standard, and there are disgruntled members who question making Thundurus a Suspect. On the other side of the spectrum, some have regarded the firm decision to keep Latios and Deoxys in OU disagreeable while Garchomp is being banned. The only result that came without controversy, without disagreement, without large public outcry, was the decision to keep Excadrill OU. I myself do not particularly oppose any such results (although I am somewhat annoyed by a few from this round, but it's mostly apathy), but it is clear from my observations that others do not share such a view. What do the fellow ladies (although they are a clear minority, and do not share the same compassion for competitive battling here) and gentlemen think of this round of voting, if it is not too late to discuss it? I'll be abstaining from this discussion, which I consider appropriate since I do not have a strong vested interest in opposing bans or decisions in the other direction, and only wish to gauge the general opinion of others.

On an unrelated note, our attempts to enforce policy that will theoretically (or try to) promote activity and refresh our member base with a new generation of PC members are starting to roll off the production line. Tutoring will start soon if all goes well, and there is certainly enthusiasm and compassionate veterans of S&M / CBC to try and make sure it is a civil and energetic endeavor. I do think it will generate some form and degree of success, but it is audacious to think it will directly generate a recovery of this forum and renew the ranks; I think it is fair and somewhat optimistic to say it will help along the grander scheme, and provide a model for other ideas if it goes through successfully. Hopefully, our tutors will be polite and pass on a calm mindset, and give newer players less familiar to the competitive environment a set of basic rules and simple rationale; while I do not think practically doing everything for students is prudent it might be best to give them heavy advice, depending on the situation and relative experience of the student. We shall see. In any case, I'd like to see how others think this shall go along. Any commentary on current policies aimed at reviving this forum, or thoughts on how to continue this attempt at recovery (future actions etc.)?

Anti
June 23rd, 2011, 09:39 PM
My view of SmashPass teams is simply that the use of them is so formulaic and robotic that it's not even worth winning with them because you aren't even responsible for the win really. I mean, competitive Pokemon is about winning so it's perfect within the limits of the game, but I just don't really prepare for them since I'm a very casual battler as it is and I honestly can't think of much that can stop them anyways. Though I won't say I've tried too hard.

As for the suspects, I haven't played against Deoxys-S enough to have an opinion. Excadrill is very very good but not Uber. I am conflicted on Thundurus because I've never really found a good way to stop it but at the same time it also never gets more than one or two kills in my experience. I don't really know on him. Believe it or not, I've seen like, one Latios ever, so I won't comment.

I tend to lean toward agreeing with the Garchomp ban just because one single Sand Veil miss can really be the difference between a win and a loss because Garchomp is already so gifted...but besides playing against Wolf's Sub Chomp, I don't think I've ever missed vs. one. I guess I'm just really lucky lol.

Hopefully activity picks up! The spirit of the old DCC was right but its execution was horribly flawed, so hopefully this becomes a fun thread for everyone :)

Jake♫
June 23rd, 2011, 09:46 PM
I feel like with Garchomp they can potentially just ban it with Sand Veil and let it have Rough Skin and still be OU. I mean with the main reason behind the ban gone, why not allow it back in?

SmashPass is just ugh to me. I feel like it's almost you're admitting you care about nothing but winning, because I personally find it a cheap tactic. There are so few counters and checks to it that it's boring to even use in my opinion. I don't know, maybe that's just me =3

Anti
June 23rd, 2011, 09:59 PM
I feel like with Garchomp they can potentially just ban it with Sand Veil and let it have Rough Skin and still be OU. I mean with the main reason behind the ban gone, why not allow it back in?

I think it's 'cause Blaze Blaziken wasn't kept in OU so I guess it's for consistency or something...and I guess they want to avoid complex bans maybe? IDK, I don't check out Policy Review anymore :( ...but I think that's why.

.Aero
June 23rd, 2011, 10:01 PM
Well, it could be what Anti said, or it could be because Rough Skin is an unreleased Dream World ability. They can't just make an exception to and allow this DW ability just because we want to keep Chomp. Once it's released, I'm sure it will either go through retesting, or will just be allowed in OU straight away.

Also, I don't think they're really that against complex bans. See: Drizzle + Swift Swim.

Jake♫
June 23rd, 2011, 10:03 PM
If it's unreleased then that would make sense. But then again even if that wasn't the case why wouldn't they allow Blaziken back in without Speed Boost. I guess it might just be the whole "we set up a precedent, we can't go against now" thing.

Alternative
June 23rd, 2011, 10:05 PM
Didn't Smogon ban Drizzle altogether, or am I missing something. :/ Maybe they're just hating on Gorebyss.

.Aero
June 23rd, 2011, 10:16 PM
No, rain teams are still extremely common. They just hindered them by disallowing the use of Swift Swim and Drizzle on the same team. It kind of made Kingdra unstoppable, and other things were too powerful too, like Gorebyss and it's deadly Shell Smash set that's outsped by next to nothing.

flight
June 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
On an unrelated note, our attempts to enforce policy that will theoretically (or try to) promote activity and refresh our member base with a new generation of PC members are starting to roll off the production line. Tutoring will start soon if all goes well, and there is certainly enthusiasm and compassionate veterans of S&M / CBC to try and make sure it is a civil and energetic endeavor. I do think it will generate some form and degree of success, but it is audacious to think it will directly generate a recovery of this forum and renew the ranks; I think it is fair and somewhat optimistic to say it will help along the grander scheme, and provide a model for other ideas if it goes through successfully. Hopefully, our tutors will be polite and pass on a calm mindset, and give newer players less familiar to the competitive environment a set of basic rules and simple rationale; while I do not think practically doing everything for students is prudent it might be best to give them heavy advice, depending on the situation and relative experience of the student. We shall see. In any case, I'd like to see how others think this shall go along. Any commentary on current policies aimed at reviving this forum, or thoughts on how to continue this attempt at recovery (future actions etc.)?

Well, I have something to share with you and the entire DCC that I've told Vrai the other day in an MSN conversation:


(3:51 AM) Princess♕Winte: Listen
(3:51 AM) Princess♕Winte: The part where people are successful
(3:51 AM) Princess♕Winte: is really not the fact where they don't reach the goals
(3:52 AM) Princess♕Winte: is the fact where they pave the road so they actually know HOW to achieve their goals.

And


(3:52 AM) Princess♕Winte: and the forum merge was exactly what CBC currently needed. It's activity is increased by a lot, but even if it didnt meet standards
(3:52 AM) Princess♕Winte: its a hell of a lot better than how S&M was before, right?Not only that!

(3:53 AM) Princess♕Winte: We need to set the bar higher, but little by little as we acheive our goals one by one
(3:53 AM) Princess♕Winte: then we get where we want to go
(3:53 AM) Princess♕Winte: Even if this fails, everyone needs to know that no one really needs to feel down, because everyone knows EXACTLY what to do already
(3:53 AM) Princess♕Winte: the road has already been paved
(3:53 AM) Princess♕Winte: its just a matter of traveling it and overcoming obstacles along the way

Anti
June 23rd, 2011, 10:22 PM
I would say that Drizzle isn't banned yet, but I have a feeling that eventually there is going to be enough support that it gets booted, whether or not it's "right." I think weather wars give Gen 5 a cool thing that makes it distinctive personally, plus it's a more diverse metagame in many respects than Gen 4 was once Dragon centralization really took over.

flamehaze94
June 23rd, 2011, 10:24 PM
The best way to take down SmashPass to to make it so that the first pass fails. Then it's just an easy -1 defense for something like CB Scizor to pick off with Quick Attack or Bullet Punch. On my curent team I lead with Heatran whenever I see Espeon and spam Lava Plume. It's weak enough to to not kill Espeon, thus stalling out screens and dangerous enough to deter most things from switching in with that 30% burn rate. For some reason nobody expects Roar on Heatran anymore (and me staying in...) and Gorebyss just Shell Smashes only to be phazed away :/.

If all else fails, just spam strong attacks? Something like Scarf Terrakion can outspeed most Pokemon even after +2 and can KO Espeon before it puts up screens.

Also, bringing Garchomp back with Rough Skin is like bringing back non-Speed Boost Blaziken. It's Smogon policy to not to apply complex bans if possible which is why so many people are itching to repel Aldaron's proposal. Besides, banning Sand Veil would make Cacturne (even more) useless D:

Edit: Just how many more replies did people post while I was typing? 0_o I'm slow...

Alternative
June 23rd, 2011, 10:24 PM
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?

Anti
June 23rd, 2011, 10:28 PM
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?

Depends on if they Sub first...and I think they do? My lord, I need to play more.

Oh flamehaze don't hate on Cacturne 'cause he's really cool ;_;

@what Derk said:

Indeed, hopefully we can continue to attempt to destroy the demons of the past. Wolf, Aura, and myself are open to any ideas for boosting activity and such, maybe bring back ComNight or something?

We really should get T&E going though! It's dead atm and I think all of our regulars could prop it up in a heartbeat.

.Aero
June 23rd, 2011, 10:29 PM
Yes, I guess. But Sleep Clause is standard, and who's to say you can't run more than one swift swimmer? Also, not everyone likes running Whimsicott (such as me) as some see it as dead weight on certain teams.

flight
June 23rd, 2011, 10:30 PM
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?

Sleep powder isn't always reliable. If you're discussing the issue of SmashPass, if something like Haxorus(painfully) comes out, and your sleep powder somehow misses, it's GG. .____.;

In this metagame, a "hit or a miss" really does count from what I experience. Most people tend to take risks, as I found out, and run things like focus blast and stone edge still, but whether a specific move hits or misses really can determine the outcome of an entire match(or affect it heavily).

maybe bring back ComNight or something?

Well, like I mentioned before on PO, in order for ComNight to really succeed in the end, a large amount of our regulars and even those that are new to CBC/S&M would all have to come on during simultaneous times. This wouldn't so much be an issue if ComNight was adjusted here and there to somehow accommodate the vast timezones and what have you, but that has always been it's weak point.

I imagine holding a ComNight at least once every month or so, if anything. Host it too often, people would lost interest. Host it less often, and you won't get as much activity. Balance is indeed important here. I would imagine at least once a month at a random day or so at the mod's discretion?

Alternative
June 23rd, 2011, 10:31 PM
When you first said flamehaze I was thinking that it would be a dumb strategy to spam Will-O-Wisp and Haze or something. :P Then I realised that it's a user. I needa learn to read some more.

I like Cacturne. It's the first Pokemon I ever RNG abused. <3

flamehaze94
June 23rd, 2011, 11:03 PM
I suppose Cacturne could be good.. in NU or something lol

After a couple test matches, I can safely say that SubToxic Gliscor is the most annoying thing ever and this is coming from the user. It sits at a sexy speed stat and can EVed to outpeed neutral base 100s or be bulky as hell with the standard spread. It can scare off something like Heatran or Scizor, Toxic and rotate between Protect and Substitute. This set is potentially scarier with Toxic Spikes, were you can just stall without wasting a turn with Toxic. Teams without something like Skarmory or Reuniclus (Cloyster too I guess) will be hardpressed to do anything about it, because it can easily come in AGAIN and restart the cycle.

Exile
June 23rd, 2011, 11:17 PM
While Gliscor walls my revenge killer, Terrakion, I don't have much trouble with it, since Rotom-W and Hippowdon [with Ice Fang and Roar] can handle it really well. Gliscor is a great Pokemon, though, I may consider using it on my upcoming Communist Stall Team.

flamehaze94
June 23rd, 2011, 11:29 PM
The standard Bulky SD set is fairly easy to deal with sure, but I'm talking about the SubProtect ones. The problem with Rotom and Hippo is that both are susceptible to Toxic on the switch, which severly hampers their staying power. Even Rotom-W could potentially be slower if Gliscor is Jolly natured. Hippowdon can't to anything to Gliscor besides Roar. Ice Fang will fall to Toxic + stalling. That thing can even beat Ferrothorn 1vs1 due to Power Whips low PP. Something with Aromatherapy can work I guess, but clerics are very rare.

Vrai
June 24th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I just wanted to say that I am a fan of this thread.

@ smash pass: I've never actually came up with a team that had a plan to specifically deal with smashpass teams, particularly because I'm a) not a great teambuilder and b) I've never really focused on "dealing with opposing threats" and moreso just figuring out what walls me since I don't think I've ever successfully played anything but heavily offensive teams. Generally I've found it's easiest to beat smashpass with a variety of prediction, checks and priority. I generally start off with a heavy hitter like CB Dragonite who more or less ensures that Deoxys-S or Espeon only gets up Reflect, and then I'll find my way to Magnezone on the switch to Gorebyss. From there it's just trying to outplay the opponent in their head - I could just click Volt Switch and see what they do or I'll Flash Cannon an incoming Garchomp or something. I've honestly only lost against smashpass teams when I've really been outplayed - yeah, it does require a higher degree of... something to keep up with it because you are dealing with more powerful threats etc, but I don't feel like it's something that's absolutely unstoppable no matter what your team is unless you run Perish Song Politoed etc.

@ sub/protect gliscor: GAH GO DIE IN A HOLE GLISCOR. >:O this thing is really annoying, especially if played correctly. I've been deliberating on running Icicle Spear on Mamoswine just for things like this and Sub-Twave Dragonite. Or I could go run CB Cloyster...

Also Lala I skipped over your post entirely. Is that bad? :x
edit: nevermind I read it. :)

flamehaze94
June 24th, 2011, 01:50 PM
I actually laddered my first ever Wifi UU match just earlier today and it was against a dude ranked in the top 50 0_o. The variation was something like +91, -2 or something riduculous. Since I had no idea how UU works, I decided to throw in some of my favorite Pokemon. The team ended up have 3 Sucker Punch users with 5/6 of them having LO. Needless to say... through a combination of luck, skill, and whim I managed to secure victory! SubRhyperior curbstomped everything after his Bronzong died. I kinda feel bad for him though ;_;

So yeah, UU's suprisingly a fun metagame (not better than Ubers though ;D). I'll be playing it more often after I learn the ropes first.

This part doesn't really have anything to do with UU, but I've seen A LOT more double dragons + Magnezone offensive cores lately (thanks PK...). And Haxorus is getting some use and I've been on the recieving end of CB Rivalry Outrage before... ouch. Not that they're common or anything, just they're around.

Spinosaurus
June 24th, 2011, 02:04 PM
^BRONZONG IS UU????????!!!!!!???

And lol, flamehaze, I should totally play you in ubers. It's so fun. I suck at it though, and I want a good team-mate for Groudon other than Ho-Oh. (maybe reshiram but idk)

flamehaze94
June 24th, 2011, 02:20 PM
That was me on the Beta server. They have a more active Ubers ladder than Smogon's which is why I'm there more now.

Giratina-O is a good partner for Groudon, since it beats Forretress and can priority Shadow Sneak to kill Deoxys-A and Mewtwo that threaten Groudon. It's also a pretty ok switch in to non-Specs Kyogre. Palkia is generally an awesome partner too. Groudon + Scarfkia beats every single Rayquaza there is. It can also abuse Rain in case Kyogre shows up and can be your primary switch to sponge Specs Water Spout.

Spinosaurus
June 24th, 2011, 02:24 PM
Oh, I was already using Giratina. Not Giratina-O though, but since I got rid of Forretress and Spikes with Tentacruel I guess I could use Giratina-O. I guess I'll try Scarf Palkia, but I already have Ho-Oh as a scarfer. Maybe replace Zekrom with Scarf Palkia and use standard Ho-Oh? idk i thought scarf Ho-Oh was pretty dumb anyway because of stealth rock despite rapid spin. :(

flight
June 24th, 2011, 02:46 PM
Guys, I'm sorry if I annoy some people with this, but Thundurus really is starting to be a pain.

Throughout all the battles that I've had with people utilizing Thundurus, I guess it's not so bad if you set up on a previous Pokemon and then attack thundurus for a possible OHKO or something. Like, for example, with me utilizing a Scizor, I believe a +2 or a +4 Bullet Punch(I can't really remember) is enough to at least 2HKO Thundurus? It's not really that bulky, assuming nobody puts Def or that many HP EVs on it, so.. .___.;

Spinosaurus
June 24th, 2011, 02:59 PM
Guys, I'm sorry if I annoy some people with this, but Thundurus really is starting to be a pain.

Throughout all the battles that I've had with people utilizing Thundurus, I guess it's not so bad if you set up on a previous Pokemon and then attack thundurus for a possible OHKO or something. Like, for example, with me utilizing a Scizor, I believe a +2 or a +4 Bullet Punch(I can't really remember) is enough to at least 2HKO Thundurus? It's not really that bulky, assuming nobody puts Def or that many HP EVs on it, so.. .___.;
Well, I don't really see many Thundurus to be honest but I usually let scarfers deal with them. Chomp is banned, but Terrakion and Landorus are both good scarf users. Without Taunt, Thundurus can have problems against walls like Blissey and Porygon 2 but if you don't have Focus Blast then it has a problem against TTar. Also, I'm pretty sure Latias can take a Hidden Power Ice in the face easily and deal damage with STAB Dragon Pulse. Excadrill can also OHKO with Rock Slide after SR. idk i have no knowledge with Thundurus. :(

flight
June 24th, 2011, 03:03 PM
Well, I don't really see many Thundurus to be honest but I usually let scarfers deal with them. Chomp is banned, but Terrakion and Landorus are both good scarf users. Without Taunt, Thundurus can have problems against walls like Blissey and Porygon 2 but if you don't have Focus Blast then it has a problem against TTar. Also, I'm pretty sure Latias can take a Hidden Power Ice in the face easily and deal damage with STAB Dragon Pulse. Excadrill can also OHKO with Rock Slide after SR. idk i have no knowledge with Thundurus. :(

Omg I want to use Latias in my team. ♥ Thank you so much spino I totally forgot about her. I was really stuck between Hydreigon and Salamence, and I didn't want to use mence because he's kinda Mamoswine bait, as well as other things like Stone Edge weak and what have you. I assume Haban Berry Latias could also take a DM in the face by Latios? I'm going to make mine at least as bulky as possible, thats for sure. @_@;

With the Thundurus' that I've faced, only one or two had Nasty Plot(in which caused me to be in big trouble) and others just had the standard Thunderbolt or Focus Blast and what have you. I've only faced a handful of Landorus, which wasn't a problem because Rotom-W was my check for that, and I...rarely face any Tornadus, if anything.

And isn't it strange that I don't encounter Terrakion/Cobalion/Virizion yet? .___.; I would imagine them to be quite difficult to beat.

dreyko
June 24th, 2011, 03:45 PM
another thing to watch out for is a drizzle team with thundurus using thunder because thunder has 100% accuracy in the rain and it deals a lot more damage than t-bolt.
and with tornadus the most common things I've seen are tailwind users, sub stallers and the flying gem and acrobatics combo

flight
June 24th, 2011, 03:48 PM
another thing to watch out for is a drizzle team with thundurus using thunder because thunder has 100% accuracy in the rain and it deals a lot more damage than t-bolt.

I suppose, but Rain Dance teams are primarily used in the UU tier right? I've never really faced one as far as the OU tier is concerned. The OU tier is more or less concerned with centralizing teams around Thundurus or possibly Tyranitar, along with Blissey here and there, along with Jellicent and Ferrothorn, I suppose.

dreyko
June 24th, 2011, 03:51 PM
I suppose, but Rain Dance teams are primarily used in the UU tier right? I've never really faced one as far as the OU tier is concerned. The OU tier is more or less concerned with centralizing teams around Thundurus or possibly Tyranitar, along with Blissey here and there, along with Jellicent and Ferrothorn, I suppose.

i forgot about tiers. im kinda new to the competitive battling scene so i don't really know what belongs in what tier.

flight
June 24th, 2011, 03:59 PM
i forgot about tiers. im kinda new to the competitive battling scene so i don't really know what belongs in what tier.

Oh! That's not a problem then. ^^; There's a list on smogon that shows what belongs on what tier here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448782), which should also give you a better idea on what Pokemon to use whenever you're building a team and whatnot. When it comes to weather teams however, I believe most of them are primarily utilized in the UU tier, at least as far as Rain and Sun are concerned? Sandstorm teams are mostly OU, if I'm correct, due to Tyranitar being in charge of that.

In case you didn't know though: UU is underused. The Pokemon utilized in this tier aren't bad whatsoever, they're just...used less than the those than are OU(OverUsed). It really depends on which tier you really want to play in though. I heard Staraptor is quite the big threat in UU, while in OU, people would have to deal with T-Tar, Thundurus and friends.

dreyko
June 24th, 2011, 04:05 PM
Oh! That's not a problem then. ^^; There's a list on smogon that shows what belongs on what tier here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448782), which should also give you a better idea on what Pokemon to use whenever you're building a team and whatnot. When it comes to weather teams however, I believe most of them are primarily utilized in the UU tier, at least as far as Rain and Sun are concerned? Sandstorm teams are mostly OU, if I'm correct, due to Tyranitar being in charge of that.

In case you didn't know though: UU is underused. The Pokemon utilized in this tier aren't bad whatsoever, they're just...used less than the those than are OU(OverUsed). It really depends on which tier you really want to play in though. I heard Staraptor is quite the big threat in UU, while in OU, people would have to deal with T-Tar, Thundurus and friends.

ok thanks for the link =) i will definitely check out smogon so that i can be more informed on competitive battling.

flight
June 24th, 2011, 04:08 PM
ok thanks for the link =) i will definitely check out smogon so that i can be more informed on competitive battling.

Also, remember one thing: Nobody's really that good when they first start off. I know, it has definitely happened to me. Being the one that constantly loses matches and whatnot, it really does help me reflect on what things my team is missing, what I'm doing wrong, and stuff like that. Remember that in this metagame(and pretty much competitive battling in general), prediction is a huge thing, it can really make or break a match for you.

Believe me, it's happened to me a lot of times. ><;

Vrai
June 24th, 2011, 04:11 PM
With the Thundurus' that I've faced, only one or two had Nasty Plot(in which caused me to be in big trouble) and others just had the standard Thunderbolt or Focus Blast and what have you. I've only faced a handful of Landorus, which wasn't a problem because Rotom-W was my check for that, and I...rarely face any Tornadus, if anything.

And isn't it strange that I don't encounter Terrakion/Cobalion/Virizion yet? .___.; I would imagine them to be quite difficult to beat.

Thundurus is usually... ehh, well, Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that's easier to revenge than it is to check solidly. It can get difficult to predict, especially since we don't have Scarf Garchomp to come in on obvious Thunderbolts and scare it out. It's another point where Mamoswine is just really really damn useful - LO Ice Shard OHKOs, I believe. It's also really really important to get up rocks so it's not so easy for them to come in and then just Volt Switch their way back out.

Nah, probably not that strange at the musketeer trio. Terrakion is such priority bait that very few people can use it effectively and when they do it's hard to do so - though it is a fantastic Choice item user. Both Choice Band and Choice Scarf are very good on it. Cobalion is hardly used at all because its base 129 stat (Terrakion's is Attack, Virizion's is Special Defense) isn't nearly as useful as the other two. Virizion is actually the one with the biggest niche - its typing lends itself to be a great bulky water check in general, absorbing hits from literally every bulky water and then spamming Calm Mind in their face. Regardless, it's generally not used as much because it's still really frail defensively (from the physical aspect). I dunno, I'm just not really that surprised that you don't see them that much.

dreyko
June 24th, 2011, 04:12 PM
Also, remember one thing: Nobody's really that good when they first start off. I know, it has definitely happened to me. Being the one that constantly loses matches and whatnot, it really does help me reflect on what things my team is missing, what I'm doing wrong, and stuff like that. Remember that in this metagame(and pretty much competitive battling in general), prediction is a huge thing, it can really make or break a match for you.

Believe me, it's happened to me a lot of times. ><;

I've done some battles without tiers before but I've never done a battle with designated tiers. i guess with tiers you really have to think about what pokemon you use because you cant just use whatever you like.

flight
June 24th, 2011, 04:17 PM
Thundurus is usually... ehh, well, Thundurus is one of those Pokemon that's easier to revenge than it is to check solidly. It can get difficult to predict, especially since we don't have Scarf Garchomp to come in on obvious Thunderbolts and scare it out. It's another point where Mamoswine is just really really damn useful - LO Ice Shard OHKOs, I believe. It's also really really important to get up rocks so it's not so easy for them to come in and then just Volt Switch their way back out.

Yeah, I definitely agree with this. I never kill Thundurus at first, but I always manage to get rocks up and then it's easier to revenge kill after that. Landorus is also quite a bit of trouble, but only to an extent if I'm ever facing a CB set with EQ and Stone Edge, it can be quite a bit of trouble. x_x;

Nah, probably not that strange at the musketeer trio. Terrakion is such priority bait that very few people can use it effectively and when they do it's hard to do so - though it is a fantastic Choice item user. Both Choice Band and Choice Scarf are very good on it. Cobalion is hardly used at all because its base 129 stat (Terrakion's is Attack, Virizion's is Special Defense) isn't nearly as useful as the other two. Virizion is actually the one with the biggest niche - its typing lends itself to be a great bulky water check in general, absorbing hits from literally every bulky water and then spamming Calm Mind in their face. Regardless, it's generally not used as much because it's still really frail defensively (from the physical aspect). I dunno, I'm just not really that surprised that you don't see them that much.

Well, as far as my own team is concerned, I think I would have a bit of trouble if anything trying to deal with that trio. D: That's why I would be a bit intimidated if anything if I were to face them.

Dragonite is also another one, but I think it's the same as Thundurus: It's a heck of a lot easier to revenge kill, but BP Scizor more often than not really does take care of it with SR up.

Vrai
June 24th, 2011, 04:30 PM
I've done some battles without tiers before but I've never done a battle with designated tiers. i guess with tiers you really have to think about what pokemon you use because you cant just use whatever you like.

Yes, definitely! Remember, usage really says a lot about a Pokémon - people like to use the good ones. If a Pokémon's usage is really really high it's probably really really good. Therefore, in OverUsed, you have to consider mostly top-tier Pokémon or else you won't have as big of a chance to win. This is why tiers exist, mostly: so you can use the Pokémon that are less-than-perfect in battles with other Pokémon of the same quality. But yeah, with tiers the game completely changes - when you're playing OU, there are threats you have to deal with that aren't in UU because they aren't allowed. But when you're playing UU, the threats you have to deal with are completely different than OU and thus a lot of different Pokémon are popular. It is, in my opinion, one of the coolest parts of competitive battling. The metagames (as in, the metagame of OU and of UU) develop entirely separately from each other even though the majority of the Pokémon in each are usable in the other.

Well, as far as my own team is concerned, I think I would have a bit of trouble if anything trying to deal with that trio. D: That's why I would be a bit intimidated if anything if I were to face them.

Dragonite is also another one, but I think it's the same as Thundurus: It's a heck of a lot easier to revenge kill, but BP Scizor more often than not really does take care of it with SR up.

Well, carrying strong physical priority is enough for the two common ones. Virizion faints easy from a Scizor Bullet Punch - same with Terrakion. Outspeeding them is also fairly useful - Lati@s can outrun Virizion and smash it with Psyshock. Terrakion is a little harder since it can spam Rock Polish, but again it's a lot easier to revenge with Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch, etc. Mamoswine Ice Shard even OHKOs after a few defense drops from Close Combat.

Dragonite is a little harder because of Multi-Scale. Icicle Spear and Double Chop are probably the easiest ways to break it, although Mamo's Icicle Crash and Specs Latios' Draco Meteor outright OHKO those with little bulk investment anyway. There are other ones too but Multi-Scale is what makes Nite really effective.

wolf
June 24th, 2011, 11:02 PM
so i thought this would be an interesting topic: what do you think is the biggest change from 4th gen OU to 5th gen? i assume it could be anything, to an extent. seeing as one could say all of the 5th gen pokemon or dream world abilities, you may only reply with one pokemon/ability/item/etc (or weather) that you think changed the metagame the most.

.Aero
June 24th, 2011, 11:11 PM
Definitely weather. It's caused a lot of issues when it comes to tiering and banning threats. I guess Dream World in general, since that's what started it. Other things from Dream World that I feel are notable (besides Ninetales and Toed) are Mirror Bounce Espeon, Multi Scale Dragonite, and Sheer Force Nidoking (although he's less noticeable). I personally really like it, because it keeps us away from the "spam dragons/steels" that Gen 4 became with Platinum, which was honestly the most boring thing to play.

Vrai
June 25th, 2011, 04:56 AM
Can I just say Dream World? It's given a lot of Pokémon new life, like Espeon, Dragonite, Politoed, Ninetales... while some of them aren't useful at all, new abilities for old Pokémon can completely change how effective they are (in the case of say Politoed) or just like making them this much better like Mamoswine and Thick Fat. AND THEN you have things like Regenerate/ion (I can never remember what it is) Slowbro/Tangrowth - those abilities made those Pokémon much much much better. And there are still things yet to be released - Ditto breaking the revenge-killing game, anyone? I dunno, I think the Dream World totally changed our perspectives on why exactly some things are good, and how other things just need that liiiiittle nudge in an ability or a moveset or something to make it great.

Dark Azelf
June 25th, 2011, 11:46 AM
Doesn't Whimisicott stop both those threats with Prankster Sleep Powder/whatever move against them?

Magic Bounce Espeon is a staple on SmashPass teams as it stops 90% of PHazing along with Sub Gorebyss, this includes Whimsicott (who doesnt get Sleep Powder btw :P). Haze and Perish Song are the only things that stop you getting swept and you know its bullcrap when even Offensive teams (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448743) have to use them. :/ Scarfers also wont work as the most common smash receivers outrun them easily.

Im actually going to nominate Smeargle, Gorebyss and Huntail OR Espeon next round because smashpassing is unable to be banned (even though it received a MASS amount of nominations) as its "too complex" so those pokes are gonna have to go to prevent this bs lol.

@ Garchomp/Blaziken alt abilities in OU: Cant do it as its a massive double standard if we let chomp back and not Blaze and too complex. Which is silly imo. If it improves the game, why not do it, even if it is "2 complex" ?

Speaking of "too complex" arguments, anyone else think this only applies when you have an exceedingly small brain ? "ONOES, BLAZE BLAZIKEN IS ALLOWED BUT SPEED BOOST ISNT ?!?!?! MY BRAIN CANNOT FATHOM THIS AAAAA" lol ~~

I suppose, but Rain Dance teams are primarily used in the UU tier right? I've never really faced one as far as the OU tier is concerned.

Noooo, in OU Rain Teams are pretty much the most common thing you'll face along with SS/Sun and SmashPassing (at least higher up the ladder).

Anywho, Thundurus counters; Unaware Quagsire, Swampert, SP.Def Blissey, P2 (Eviolite and Priority Traced T-Wave ftw), Sp.Def Jirachi and electrics (Vire, Eelektross and Raikou etc) seem to be the best things that check it. Anything faster such as Scarfers work wonders. As always the amazing Mamoswine proves to be an awesome switch into it.

The biggest change; imo is the fall of Heavy Stall. Its literally impossible to do now after it dominating for 3 gens. Whilst stall still exists in some forms (semi stall, elf stall etc) your classic Skarm, Bliss, Hippow stuff is extremely hard to do now.

Vrai
June 25th, 2011, 06:15 PM
Speaking of "too complex" arguments, anyone else think this only applies when you have an exceedingly small brain ? "ONOES, BLAZE BLAZIKEN IS ALLOWED BUT SPEED BOOST ISNT ?!?!?! MY BRAIN CANNOT FATHOM THIS AAAAA" lol ~~

....it sure seems like it. I really dunno why complex bans aren't allowed. But at the same time I kinda get it because we could just as easily say that uhhh [insert_uber_mon] isn't really broken if you take away X stab move(s) and whatever. There's a point where complex banning just becomes modifying all of the Pokemon and that just kinda takes... well, it feels like it removes the essence of the game if everything is on the exact same level ground. I don't really want to play a match where everything is absolutely perfectly even - that ruins the variety of the game. I know I'm taking it to extremes here but people are technically right about the slippery slope imo - while not being able to complex ban this or that sounds stupid, it's better in the long run I think because when we complex ban something we're essentially modifying that Pokemon so that it becomes suitable for the metagame. And if we continually do that, everything will just be modified to the point that... well, everything will just be on equal terms.

I dunno if that made complete sense but that's my opinion on it.

flight
June 27th, 2011, 12:29 AM
To bring up a seperate topic..

Don't you hate it when you play a few challenge cups here and there and your opponent just so happens to have a flipping Genesect?

I hate that thing so hard. >>

Exile
June 27th, 2011, 12:54 AM
To bring up a seperate topic..

Don't you hate it when you play a few challenge cups here and there and your opponent just so happens to have a flipping Genesect?

I hate that thing so hard. >>

Coming from someone who used to ladder on Mysidia, this thing is a behemoth, regardless of tier. The Download boosted U-Turns or Special Attacks destroy pretty much everything, Blissey included [see U-Turn]. The only way to effectively beat it is to 2HKO with a powerful earthquake or outspeed it and hit it with a Fire Attack, which Scarf Infernape is probably the only thing capable of doing that. The fact that Scarf Infernape was even brought up implies it's certainly broken and I'd like to see it promptly banned upon release.

Dark Azelf
June 27th, 2011, 05:22 AM
Yeah id like to see Genesect banned. Heatran and Chansey are the only thing that really walls it well tbh. :/ Though i doubt Heatran is going to want to take Douse Drive Techno Blasts or even Download T-Bolts. ~~

Exile
June 27th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Keldeo is another Pokemon who I'd like to see banned. 2 of the 4 types that hit it for super effective damage [Electric, Psychic] are primarily comprised of special moves, which can easily be absorbed after a few Calm Minds. Secret Sword makes Blissey and Chansey susceptible to its attacks, so the list of Pokemon that wall it is narrowed down to Cresselia and maybe a few others that I'm forgetting, as I type this.

Vrai
June 27th, 2011, 02:23 PM
Pssssh, I use Psyshock for Keldeo. :)

Dark Azelf
June 27th, 2011, 03:35 PM
Keldeo is another Pokemon who I'd like to see banned. 2 of the 4 types that hit it for super effective damage [Electric, Psychic] are primarily comprised of special moves, which can easily be absorbed after a few Calm Minds. Secret Sword makes Blissey and Chansey susceptible to its attacks, so the list of Pokemon that wall it is narrowed down to Cresselia and maybe a few others that I'm forgetting, as I type this.

Eh Keldeo isnt too bad. It loses to dragons rather badly and stuff like Gyarados, Celebi, Jellicent etc depending on the Hidden Power. Then there is Lati@s etc.

flight
June 27th, 2011, 05:05 PM
I've never encountered Keldeo(and I hope I never do) so I've never really been put in that kind of predicament or anything, fortunately. The worst I've ever faced is, like I said, Genesect, and the occasional Garchomp here and there(on the PO server of course, whereas it wasn't banned yet). I even faced a sub chomp once, in which I promptly knew that there was no way I could ever possibly win.

And then I faced a mew once, who's completely kinda unpredictable whatsoever because it can learn any move, etc.

Dark Azelf
June 27th, 2011, 07:31 PM
For those of you who care:

1. I forbid the use of my guides etc as they will be reserved for people who actually appreciate.

2. Goodbye, i wont be coming back.

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 05:31 PM
well let's let this thread get to a point where we can start discussing things again

who has seen this (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3450212)? i think it's a really interesting concept but something that you'd have to build -entirely- new teams for. you'd think that removing hax would be as simple as removing crit chances but that's really removing every kind of luck there is at all. plus a lot of things will be less good - notably jirachi, but outrage users beware: "Outrage always lasts two turns and lowers the user's Atk and SpA 2 stages when it ends."

i mean, it sounds really really interesting and something that would be hard to get into at the same time because of all the new restrictions you'd have to get used to. on the plus side, things like stone bad and focus miss will be a lot easier to use but focus blast also is a drop in spA.... idk, it's so weird! a whole new metagame, even. what are your thoughts on a server like this and what do you think you'd use on your team if you battled on it? discuss gogogogo!!!

flight
June 28th, 2011, 05:38 PM
My opinion, but I think it's pretty bad. While I agree with most Smogon users there that it incorporates new strategy, there are only so many teams you could build to work around the new rules, and as thus, it feels more like a restriction more than an actual challenge. It would normally take much longer to build teams, as DynamicPunch is key to things like No Guard Machamp, and some Bronzong Hypnosis users(as well as Hypnosis Gengar) might find their Pokemon less...desirable to use(meaning that, in those conditions, Bronzong would just be set-up bait and nothing more, really).

I dunno, I personally don't feel that it's for me. D:

.Aero
June 28th, 2011, 05:41 PM
It's a neat idea for sure, but I'd refrain from playing it because I have no problems with the current metagame. Sure, luck becomes annoying, but I figure "so what". I never ladder though, so it's probably just an opinion that formed because I just casual battle and hax never gets to me.

flight
June 28th, 2011, 05:51 PM
Here are my personal feelings about crits and luck though:

It happens in Pokemon. I personally believe that no one should take it seriously to the extent to create a whole different ladder where it's "luck-free" or "crit-free" or what have you in any manner whatsoever. Sure, I might get annoyed if my Pokemon get a crit or whatnot, it's all part of my opponent being lucky at that specific moment and time. In the end, it's a Pokemon game, and they're there for entertainment. No need to take things to the extreme.

Anti
June 28th, 2011, 05:55 PM
It doesn't really appeal to me much especially because no moves ever miss (though of course they had to do that to eliminate luck). It's really just a whole new game and it's kind of impossible to speculate :o. It is good that players who despise luck have a place to play though.

At least Rock Slide won't miss anymore X)

wolf
June 28th, 2011, 05:58 PM
i did say i would have liked it with just no critical hits on the server, but it does seem interesting with the changes. i may make a team for that metagame when the server is up. nothing else to mention about it...i'm not really against it since it's just a side metagame.

Ooka
June 28th, 2011, 06:09 PM
Awesome. :)

I'll definitely at least be trying it out, it'll let me use lots of sets that were pretty unavailable before because of certain things (Like Dynamicpunch Machamp completely outclassing Guts Close Combat).

.Aero
June 28th, 2011, 06:19 PM
Ok Spartan, look. You linked to pornography. There are two locations for the rules (a sticky here in CBC, and one on the server itself). It alerts you upon logging in that you can read the rules with a /rule command. In pink text by the way also highlighted by the *** on either side. Also, when is pornography ever OK to post? Your argument seems to revolve around the idea that you didn't know the rules, but no pornography shouldn't even have to be said as it's a general rule of any forum that isn't...adult-oriented.

Regardless, this conversation is better suited for PM or VM.

To put this thread back on track:

The whole Thunder / Blizzard / etc dropping respective stats is basically a D-meteor thing, making those moves rely on STAB it seems. Thundurus could be fun to run Specs on with Thunder. Tornadus would be the same, but with Hurricane.

flight
June 28th, 2011, 06:22 PM
The whole Thunder / Blizzard / etc dropping respective stats is basically a D-meteor thing, making those moves rely on STAB it seems. Thundurus could be fun to run Specs on with Thunder. Tornadus would be the same, but with Hurricane.

Except those sets would be riskier to run, seeing as, unless competitive battliing utilizes White Herb, that those attacks would be walled somewhat easily after the first attack.

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Awesome. :)

I'll definitely at least be trying it out, it'll let me use lots of sets that were pretty unavailable before because of certain things (Like Dynamicpunch Machamp completely outclassing Guts Close Combat).

I still think Machamp in general will be outclassed because it no longer has that cute confusion to abuse. ;o Plus things like Conkeldurr will straight-up outclass it, tbh. I'd be excited to see a server where Will-o-Wisp never misses, too. :(

.Aero
June 28th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Well Thundurus and Tornadus both have base 125 Special Attack, making those STABs do extremely high damage, must like Latios (but he has 130 Special Attack). It would certainly be easier to resist than a dragon type stab I guess.

flight
June 28th, 2011, 06:26 PM
Hm..a server where hydro pump always hits....

Well ladies and gentlemen, I guess we all know Rotom-W might be abused there?

Well Thundurus and Tornadus both have base 125 Special Attack, making those STABs do extremely high damage, must like Latios (but he has 130 Special Attack). It would certainly be easier to resist than a dragon type stab I guess. Well yeah, I agree, they would do very high damage for the most part. After the first attack though, the second is mostly unreliable and unpredictable on whether it would cause an OHKO or not because of the drop in Sp.Atk and whatnot.

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 06:32 PM
It'd be the same thing as a lot of hit and run attacks are now - like Specs Latios. In their respective weathers I think they'd feel fairly underwhelming though, considering that they'd perform the same way they do now but without the chance to paralyze or confuse. Just a thought, anyway.

flight
June 28th, 2011, 06:35 PM
It'd be the same thing as a lot of hit and run attacks are now - like Specs Latios. In their respective weathers I think they'd feel fairly underwhelming though, considering that they'd perform the same way they do now but without the chance to paralyze or confuse. Just a thought, anyway.

Honestly, I don't even think that's going to be the most broken/abused thing when it comes to that particular ladder.

Moves such as Scald, Lava Plume, Discharge, Body Slam and Force Palm always inflict status on the second consecutive attempt.

Jirachi could still run rampant with Body slam, and I think Heatran might be used more often too.

And expect the rise of Slowbro/Slowking on this ladder. Knowing Scald inflicts burn on second consecutive attempt, they could be more efficient walls and what have you.

Also, I kinda forgot about Milotic. More of the lesser used water types now becoming overused with just about guaranteed burn with scald.

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 07:05 PM
Honestly, I don't even think that's going to be the most broken/abused thing when it comes to that particular ladder.



Jirachi could still run rampant with Body slam, and I think Heatran might be used more often too.

And expect the rise of Slowbro/Slowking on this ladder. Knowing Scald inflicts burn on second consecutive attempt, they could be more efficient walls and what have you.

Also, I kinda forgot about Milotic. More of the lesser used water types now becoming overused with just about guaranteed burn with scald.

well, think about it - it's not like only jirachi can run rampant with body slam! other things could use it as well. also notable is that since those things happen on the second consecutive attempt, it'd make prediction for the opponent a bit easier - who wouldn't go for the paralysis? you can just switch off to a ghost or water-immune or whatever. plus you would also anticipate literally all of that - want conkeldurr to get burned? bait a scald. it's just like adding layers and layers of mindgames, just because things can only happen on the second consecutive use. ;-;

Exile
June 28th, 2011, 07:08 PM
Honestly, I never found moves like Scald to be hax that was supposed to happen. Even with a 30% rate of a status condition, it's annoying when Jellicent try and spam Scald at Ferrothorn until it gets a burn. I'd rather that gets removed. It will be relieving to see moves like Stone Edge hit, however. Instead of biting your nails every time you choose to use them.

flight
June 28th, 2011, 07:13 PM
well, think about it - it's not like only jirachi can run rampant with body slam! other things could use it as well. also notable is that since those things happen on the second consecutive attempt, it'd make prediction for the opponent a bit easier - who wouldn't go for the paralysis? you can just switch off to a ghost or water-immune or whatever. plus you would also anticipate literally all of that - want conkeldurr to get burned? bait a scald. it's just like adding layers and layers of mindgames, just because things can only happen on the second consecutive use. ;-;

Here's the thing though: The more and more that I think about paralysis, the more that I think that it doesn't really matter anymore. The reason that I believe so, is that there are mostly slow pokemon like t-tar, jellicent, your standard OU Pokemon and whatever are slow this generation(with the exception of Lucario, the genies and I think the musketeers and some others I think), so thats why I'm questioning the actual reliability of thunderwave. You'd really have to rely on luck more often than not for it to actually paralyze your opponent so you would get a free turn to do whatever, pretty much.

In this ladder, I would find burn or even sleep to be more highly effective. Things like Conkeldurr? Put him to sleep, it's better than giving him anything else with what, a 1.5x boots with guts(at least, I believe it's that)?

What I'm basically trying to say is that, this ladder is just asking for nothing but status and stall matches, possibly. Offensive could be used to a good extent, but a lot of offensive teams rely on 120 BP moves, and having a Draco Meteor on every single pokemon in your team is going to get old eventually, and most likely predictable. You would have to hit and run everytime, or just run a Pokemon @ White herb for an effective sweep or something.

spartan127
June 28th, 2011, 07:15 PM
has anyone battled on that yet? does it affect gameplay that much really??

also did my avatar work? lol

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 07:24 PM
Honestly, I never found moves like Scald to be hax that was supposed to happen. Even with a 30% rate of a status condition, it's annoying when Jellicent try and spam Scald at Ferrothorn until it gets a burn. I'd rather that gets removed. It will be relieving to see moves like Stone Edge hit, however. Instead of biting your nails every time you choose to use them.

Taunt Jellicent wins against Ferrothorn if it catches it with Will-o-Wisp, actually. I've honestly only lost Jellicent to Ferro if Will-o-Wisp misses multiple times in a row or if they crit me multiple times in a row. ;-; But yeah, Stone Edge will definitely see a lot more usage on everything that can use it well.

Here's the thing though: The more and more that I think about paralysis, the more that I think that it doesn't really matter anymore. The reason that I believe so, is that there are mostly slow pokemon like t-tar, jellicent, your standard OU Pokemon and whatever are slow this generation(with the exception of Lucario, the genies and I think the musketeers and some others I think), so thats why I'm questioning the actual reliability of thunderwave. You'd really have to rely on luck more often than not for it to actually paralyze your opponent so you would get a free turn to do whatever, pretty much.

In this ladder, I would find burn or even sleep to be more highly effective. Things like Conkeldurr? Put him to sleep, it's better than giving him anything else with what, a 1.5x boots with guts(at least, I believe it's that)?

What I'm basically trying to say is that, this ladder is just asking for nothing but status and stall matches, possibly. Offensive could be used to a good extent, but a lot of offensive teams rely on 120 BP moves, and having a Draco Meteor on every single pokemon in your team is going to get old eventually, and most likely predictable. You would have to hit and run everytime, or just run a Pokemon @ White herb for an effective sweep or something.

Actually, I totally forgot that full paralysis wouldn't happen on this ladder. The only purpose would be to slow everything down anyway...... and I mean, slowing things down is nice but it's just not the same if you don't get the chance to have free turns like you do with paralysis now. I don't think we'd see anything like Body Slam, anyway. It's just that you're not getting enough out of it - if you want guaranteed paralysis, use Thunder Wave which does the same thing on the first turn. With Conk, I'd rather just go for the KO anyway. :x

I think it's asking for a lot of prediction and very very good teambuilding. You'll have to be very effective with your team choices to have any kind of relative success in this kind of metagame - and, it does remove luck. You have to out-skill the other person to win. :x

flight
June 28th, 2011, 07:36 PM
I think it's asking for a lot of prediction and very very good teambuilding. You'll have to be very effective with your team choices to have any kind of relative success in this kind of metagame - and, it does remove luck. You have to out-skill the other person to win. :x

Well for me, I think it would rather be more difficult teambuilding rather than "good". I'm not saying it would be bad in any way, but it would be very...different to what we're usually accustomed to. For me, prediction is always imperative whether it's the current ladder or the hax-free ladder, so that part hasn't changed(and most likely wont).

I can certain expect to see a lot of Lum Berry use though, don't you think?

Ooka
June 28th, 2011, 07:38 PM
The more you guys talk about it the better it sounds. So is the server up already? Like, can I play? lol, I'm excited. A whole new metagame with the same Pokemon, awesome.

Vrai
June 28th, 2011, 07:49 PM
Well for me, I think it would rather be more difficult teambuilding rather than "good". I'm not saying it would be bad in any way, but it would be very...different to what we're usually accustomed to. For me, prediction is always imperative whether it's the current ladder or the hax-free ladder, so that part hasn't changed(and most likely wont).

I can certain expect to see a lot of Lum Berry use though, don't you think?

That's what I meant, though my usage of the word "good" was more inclined to... well, that a team has to be built very effectively and purposefully to be successful, where sometimes you can get away with imperfect teams on the regular ladder. I was just trying to say that I think prediction will be taken to whole new heights and for a lot of different reasons, as compared to the usual ladder - there are lots of new situational things that really have a huge impact on prediction in general, imo.

I actually don't imagine a lot of status abuse. Sure, W-o-W hits now, but aside from that there isn't that much reason to use status imho, especially since the sleep counter only lasts two turns and never resets, as well as freeze being nonexistant.

The more you guys talk about it the better it sounds. So is the server up already? Like, can I play? lol, I'm excited. A whole new metagame with the same Pokemon, awesome.
I believe it is, though you might want to read through the thread to find out. I'm not sure I'd be up for it though - I've still gotta get better at our current metagame. ;-;

Spinosaurus
June 29th, 2011, 04:32 AM
I...I don't know about the new metagame. Sure some Pokemon like Terrakion would certainly appreciate Stone Edge NOT MISSING but it isn't really bad at all when it does, even if it does cost you the game. Though I always complain about hax and how much I hate it, it doesn't really feel like it's same game without it. It's always tense when you have to rely on a move that misses every time, biting your nail waiting for your opponent and then it hits/misses. Yeah, I like that. I also like relying on hax with Jirachi, or being careful of getting haxed. I only hate losing and being haxed from a noob, but when it's against someone good, I think it only adds to the intensity to the match, which is good.
It's really like Mario Kart Wii. I always complained about the hax there (and it's really BS) but when I tried playing without items it was just...not fun anymore.
I might try it and see if it's better, but for now I'm sticking with the current metagame.

Exile
June 29th, 2011, 12:50 PM
Just a tip, but if you ever fight a good battler, they're guaranteed to have Jirachi on their team. Otherwise they lose to Latios and Reuniclus, two extremely broken Pokemon who have yet to be banned since Smogon enjoys abusing them and using them both as last ditch efforts when their teams have been completely dismantled.

Vrai
June 29th, 2011, 02:26 PM
Hello ladies. Look at your teams. Now back to mine. Now back at your teams. Now back to mine. Sadly, your teams aren't mine. But if you stopped guessing randomly about synergy and what worked together, maybe your teams could have a chance at being as awesome as mine. Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're rapidly shooting up the ladder with a team less suckish than your old one. What's in your hand? Back at me. I have it. It's a Cloyster with a synergy tool. Look again. The tool is now ...still the same tool. Anything is possible when you use a neat synergy tool to help you with your teams instead of suckishly guessing. I'm on a Keldeo. do-doo doot dee doot do dah dooo

http://archives.bulbagarden.net/media/upload/f/f7/Spr_5b_091_s.png (http://beldum.org/synergy?species=cloyster&gen=5&tier=ou)

in case you did not understand that (which i wouldn't put it past you guys), i found a really cool/useful synergy-relevant tool that i think would be awesome when you're trying to put a team together. click on the cloyster to use it. :)

.Aero
June 29th, 2011, 02:33 PM
Cute for type synergy, but I look past that in most cases and try to find synergy through what threatens whatever sweeper I'm using (which isn't generally that hard to find out...). Neat nonetheless. Could be useful for beginners when they're just starting out. :]

flight
June 29th, 2011, 11:33 PM
Just a tip, but if you ever fight a good battler, they're guaranteed to have Jirachi on their team. Otherwise they lose to Latios and Reuniclus, two extremely broken Pokemon who have yet to be banned since Smogon enjoys abusing them and using them both as last ditch efforts when their teams have been completely dismantled.

Is it a coincidence that both of them(latios and Reuniclus) just so happen to lose to Excadrill in Sandstorm? Not to mention possible DD users. There's only so many hits Reuniclus can take, yknow.

Vrai
June 30th, 2011, 12:49 AM
Is it a coincidence that both of them(latios and Reuniclus) just so happen to lose to Excadrill in Sanstorm? Not to mention possible DD users. There's only so many hits Reuniclus can take, yknow.

Before it uses Recover. :x Also, Reuniclus used Trick Room as you switched in Excadrill - there goes your speed advantage. D;

In any case, I believe if you were to compare the two, Reuniclus is the one with no checks and thus is more broken.

flight
June 30th, 2011, 01:03 AM
Before it uses Recover. :x Also, Reuniclus used Trick Room as you switched in Excadrill - there goes your speed advantage. D;

In any case, I believe if you were to compare the two, Reuniclus is the one with no checks and thus is more broken.

383 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 310 (61.79% - 73.11%)

^ This would be the result of a Focus Blast from +0 Reuniclus. Quite bad, but I think it's really circumstantial at this point. I mean, take a look at some other things, too:

574 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 394 - 464 (92.92% - 109.43%)

^ This is +1 CM Reuniclus. In that case, of course Excadrill would be toasted, but...if Excadrill doesn't get switched into Reuniclus immediately, and sets up an SD on a Pokemon beforehand...this would be what an SD Earthquake would just about do:

810 Atk vs 273 Def & 424 HP (100 Base Power): 319 - 376 (75.24% - 88.68%)

So yeah, it could really all depend, etc. .___.

Vrai
June 30th, 2011, 02:00 AM
383 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 262 - 310 (61.79% - 73.11%)

^ This would be the result of a Focus Blast from +0 Reuniclus. Quite bad, but I think it's really circumstantial at this point. I mean, take a look at some other things, too:

574 Atk vs 251 Def & 424 HP (120 Base Power): 394 - 464 (92.92% - 109.43%)

^ This is +1 CM Reuniclus. In that case, of course Excadrill would be toasted, but...if Excadrill doesn't get switched into Reuniclus immediately, and sets up an SD on a Pokemon beforehand...this would be what an SD Earthquake would just about do:

810 Atk vs 273 Def & 424 HP (100 Base Power): 319 - 376 (75.24% - 88.68%)

So yeah, it could really all depend, etc. .___.

I don't know where you got those defenses from but you're definitely not using Excadrill's. :x

383 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 516 - 608 (142.54% - 167.96%)

That's a LO Trick Room Focus Blast.

287 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 386 - 456 (106.63% - 125.97%)

That's a +0 CM Reuniclus Focus Blast.

430 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (70 Base Power): 340 - 400 (93.92% - 110.50%)

That's a +1 CM Reuniclus HP Fighting. If you'll notice, Excadrill doesn't have that much of a chance to take a hit. ;x

Exile
June 30th, 2011, 04:13 AM
Adamant +0 Excadrill does 40.09%->47.64 on CM Reuniclus with X-Scissor and 80.19%->94.81 at +2. With Earthquake, it does 37.74%->44.58% at +0 and 75.24->88.68 with a +2 Earthquake.

The fact that a Pokemon with an attack stat of 405 3HKO's it at +0 shows it's far too broken defensively, thus leading it to an uninterrupted sweep.


Also, new topic:

What are the CBC Community's thoughts on the return of User Pokedra?

.Aero
June 30th, 2011, 09:45 AM
I, for one, am excited about Pokedra coming back. He was a good battler back in the days and I'm excited to see him in the new generation!

Also, yeah, Excadrill's defenses aren't the best, so it won't be taking any Focus Blasts from a base 125 special attack. Reuniclus is insanely annoying to fight because of Magic Guard, recover on the CM set, and trick room to mess with your fast pokemon. It's like a +6 speed boost for himself because you don't even have to make other pokemon on your team get an advantage from Trick Room. He's so bulky and powerful that he only needs it for himself. Kinda says something if you ask me. :x

Lalapizzame
June 30th, 2011, 12:09 PM
I don't mind Pokedra's company. While I do admit to treating dear Pokedra badly, I think the times have changed, and we have changed with the times. He has already had experience with competitive battling, which will be of great benefit with regards to returning to a competitive scenario with Gen V. Pokedra knows our competitive regulars / hermit community, so he'll be more comfortable with us (people tend to be nervous or less open around people they don't know). I am confident that this community, including myself, has gone past openly boasting hostility towards members, and realizes the vice inherent in such treatment, not least of all when we're concentrating large amounts of energy and effort into encouraging activity, and trying to open the floodgates (in a good way) for new players.

flight
June 30th, 2011, 05:11 PM
I don't know where you got those defenses from but you're definitely not using Excadrill's. :x

383 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 516 - 608 (142.54% - 167.96%)

That's a LO Trick Room Focus Blast.

287 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (120 Base Power): 386 - 456 (106.63% - 125.97%)

That's a +0 CM Reuniclus Focus Blast.

430 Atk vs 166 Def & 362 HP (70 Base Power): 340 - 400 (93.92% - 110.50%)

That's a +1 CM Reuniclus HP Fighting. If you'll notice, Excadrill doesn't have that much of a chance to take a hit. ;x

166? I was using Max def excadrill ok. ):< which is what i thought i was supposed to do.

Vrai
June 30th, 2011, 08:45 PM
166? I was using Max def excadrill ok. ):< which is what i thought i was supposed to do.

The thing is, people don't use max special defense Excadrill. XDD

Perrie ✿
June 30th, 2011, 10:59 PM
I'ma butt in and say that the Synergy tool Vrai found is amazing! :D

Zeffy
July 1st, 2011, 05:17 AM
What synergy tool? And what's this thing about max defense Excadrill? xD

Vrai
July 1st, 2011, 05:37 AM
I'ma but in and say that the Synergy tool Vrai found is amazing! :D

SOMEONE APPRECIATES ME :3 and yes, yes it is. :D

What synergy tool? And what's this thing about max defense Excadrill? xD

This (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=6719538&postcount=77)!

Zeffy
July 1st, 2011, 05:50 AM
Oh I see. Well, I should put that into good use when the time comes. That is, when I think of what team I should build.

Perrie ✿
July 1st, 2011, 07:04 AM
I think I need to build a new team, I've just seen Pokedra's SmashPass team, I remember I had one of them but I didn't put enough effort into it to use it effectively, I may start building a SmashPass team.

I'm gonna use Huntail! <3 Gorebyss can suck it.

Huntail's base stats; 55 | 104 | 105 | 94 | 75 | 52
Gorebyss' base stats; 55 | 84 | 105 | 114 | 75 | 52

Gorebyss is superior, but I always find trouble getting a Physical Pokemon onto a SmashPass team. Huntail needs some lovin'

Vrai
July 1st, 2011, 09:21 AM
Gorebyss is just the superior Smashpasser because it has the higher singular stat to attack with if need be. Huntail would need to go mixed to abuse his stats and that detracts from its bulk. :(

.Aero
July 1st, 2011, 10:37 AM
Both are no match for Amooonguss, so I mean, what's the point? Huntail just dies faster. ;]

Also, have any of you actually tried Amoonguss in the current metagame? It's surprisingly good and it seems a lot of people just overlook it (most likely because of Ferrothorn for grass), but his fighting resistance is extremely handy and he can survive a lot of things most people wouldn't expect (I think he survives Specs D-Meteor from Latios, but I dunno if that actually happened or was a dream).

Just a little tip for future team building: "Worried about losing to smash pass? Use Amoonguss." I put him on my team specifically for that, but to be honest, he does much more. I'm thoroughly surprised by his performance.

Ooka
July 1st, 2011, 10:42 AM
Just for fun I threw a team together with both Gorebyss and Huntail. I'd just pass the Shell Smash to the next one while both screens were still up, then do it again. Although it seems to be glitched (Sometimes my special attack would still end up +2, or my defenses would both still end up -1 even with the White Herb on both of them), when it worked, it was an easy 5-0 (Because my Uxie always uses Memento). Also, Dragonite > Garchomp as SmashPass recipient.

Btw I tried the no luck server, and honestly, I don't think it made enough of a difference to be that fun really. Although I only battled two people and didn't build another team for it, just used a previous one.

And yeah Aero, I use it on a full stall team I made, Chansey / Ferrothorn / Jellicent / Torkoal / Amoonguss / Bronzong. He's definitely a great team member, although I don't really ever do anything with him besides take hits.

Vrai
July 1st, 2011, 11:37 AM
Btw I tried the no luck server, and honestly, I don't think it made enough of a difference to be that fun really. Although I only battled two people and didn't build another team for it, just used a previous one.

And yeah Aero, I use it on a full stall team I made, Chansey / Ferrothorn / Jellicent / Torkoal / Amoonguss / Bronzong. He's definitely a great team member, although I don't really ever do anything with him besides take hits.

So how's that SR-weak spinner working out for you? XD

Yeah, I haven't tried the server yet, nor do I plan on it.

.Aero
July 1st, 2011, 11:44 AM
I use Amoonguss to stop setup sweepers with Clear Smog, as well as sleep / paralyze pokemon. Opponents tend to switch to other pokemon after they've be put to sleep, so you Spore / Stun Spore after and lawl. Giga Drain is also useful for slowly beating some pokemon like Jellicent who for some reason decide to stay in.

Ooka
July 1st, 2011, 01:41 PM
So how's that SR-weak spinner working out for you? XD


Actually, pretty great lol. Not only because Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Forry tend to be the Pokemon I'm up against using it, but also because I carry Rest on it, and Heal Bell on Chansey. I dunno, it actually ends up making it pretty efficient. :P

I use Amoonguss to stop setup sweepers with Clear Smog, as well as sleep / paralyze pokemon. Opponents tend to switch to other pokemon after they've be put to sleep, so you Spore / Stun Spore after and lawl. Giga Drain is also useful for slowly beating some pokemon like Jellicent who for some reason decide to stay in.

Clear Smog is pretty awesome. Breloom at +2 thinks it's safe to get in another SD and gets hit for SE STAB + loses it's boosts.

flamehaze94
July 2nd, 2011, 10:17 PM
On the topic of underrated 'mons.

Anybody thinking that Mamoswine is actually pretty beast this metagame? It can revenge kill weakened Lati@s, Thundurus, Salamence all the while sporting one of the strongest Earthquakes in the game. I recognize its prowess after it witnessing it in action today.

Then there's Xatu who's arguably the better magic bouncer in a non-BP team. One, it can actually wall some stuff. Two, it has Recovery in Roost. Unlike Espeon it doesn't get 2HKOed by the common Spikers, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. I can still see why Espeon is preferred however, due to higher offensive stats, but Xatu usage needs to go up >:[

Vrai
July 3rd, 2011, 05:34 AM
On the topic of underrated 'mons.

Anybody thinking that Mamoswine is actually pretty beast this metagame? It can revenge kill weakened Lati@s, Thundurus, Salamence all the while sporting one of the strongest Earthquakes in the game. I recognize its prowess after it witnessing it in action today.

Then there's Xatu who's arguably the better magic bouncer in a non-BP team. One, it can actually wall some stuff. Two, it has Recovery in Roost. Unlike Espeon it doesn't get 2HKOed by the common Spikers, Skarmory and Ferrothorn. I can still see why Espeon is preferred however, due to higher offensive stats, but Xatu usage needs to go up >:[

Hell yes Mamoswine is amazing. I think if we took server stats for us specifically, Mamo would be sitting at around #1-2. @_@;

Xatu I remember using at the beginning of BW but gradually fell out of using it - and Espeon, too. I mean while their ability is cool I'm still not fond of using it as the only thing to keep SR off the board - it requires outstanding prediction imo (probably just for SR on stuff like Tyranitar - switching into things like Ferrothorn is easier). I DUNNO I just find it difficult to use the Magic Bouncers effectively, but that's probably just me. :(

Perrie ✿
July 3rd, 2011, 05:45 AM
Mamoswine is the best, I don't see why it would be underrated, I understand it's power and I'm wary when fighting them! D:

I used Xatu a couple of times, he never really shone for me, Espeon took the spotlight. Although he has recovery in roost he still can be smashed by a strong attack, as can Espeon but Xatu is just weaker. /has a hate for Xatu.

Speaking of underrated Pokemon; Zebstrika caught my attention in UU, he's quite good, with a base 116 Speed he can outspeed a lot of things, what outspeeds him? :| With a not-to-shabby base 100 attack he can take down a few as well, and throw Thunder Waves around.

Exile
July 3rd, 2011, 06:23 AM
Even with nice optimization, Zebstrika isn't a /fantastic/ Pokemon, not even in RU, since eviolite Gligar, Hippopotas, etc wall it to hell and back. I might get back into RU, depending on how successfully I am on the OU Ladder, just to reward myself for all the stressful laddering. I'm really looking forward to using Throh, it looks like it will be the Conkeldurr of RU, and it even has a much better SpDef stat.

Vrai
July 3rd, 2011, 06:26 AM
Mamoswine is the best, I don't see why it would be underrated, I understand it's power and I'm wary when fighting them! D:

I used Xatu a couple of times, he never really shone for me, Espeon took the spotlight. Although he has recovery in roost he still can be smashed by a strong attack, as can Espeon but Xatu is just weaker. /has a hate for Xatu.

Speaking of underrated Pokemon; Zebstrika caught my attention in UU, he's quite good, with a base 116 Speed he can outspeed a lot of things, what outspeeds him? :| With a not-to-shabby base 100 attack he can take down a few as well, and throw Thunder Waves around.

Mamoswine is UU and stuff. People don't use it, even though they totally should. :(

Zebstrika... well, I haven't done anything with him, but he just seems too frail in any tier that it's in to get things done... plus its main STAB has a nice recoil attached and yeah idek. I just don't really wonder about why it's so ineffective - it just kinda -is-. :(

edit: fdkjskfldsj karpman beating meee

Perrie ✿
July 3rd, 2011, 06:30 AM
I agree that Zebstrika isn't the best, but it can do a good job of fighting. I mean sure Gligar and Hippo laugh at it, but Zebstrika can still kill annoying things that get in the way.

I haven't played anything below UU, isn't RU - Rarely used? Isn't that just the NU of this generation? D:

Or is it the borderline of NU - UU because y'know Never =/= Rarely, contradiction ftw

Vrai
July 3rd, 2011, 06:40 AM
I agree that Zebstrika isn't the best, but it can do a good job of fighting. I mean sure Gligar and Hippo laugh at it, but Zebstrika can still kill annoying things that get in the way.

I haven't played anything below UU, isn't RU - Rarely used? Isn't that just the NU of this generation? D:

Or is it the borderline of NU - UU because y'know Never =/= Rarely, contradiction ftw

Well, fast things are cool like that. I s'pose I'd imagine it like a Starmie, kinda, but with less utility and good typing and power and coverage and recovery and defensive prowess (sadly it's true). Soooo in that sense it's not really like Starmie at all. :((((

Also, it goes Ubers - OU - UU - RU - NU. It's not like a banlist for NU, it's an entirely new tier. If they didn't create it, there'd be some 400 Pokemon in NU. :x

apocalypseArisen
July 3rd, 2011, 01:57 PM
Hello everyone!
After a really long time of inactivity I'm back, yay! Wow, metagame sure has changed, a new tier, that's great. I'm very rusty right now, but I can't wait to start battling and creating teams again :D

Vrai
July 3rd, 2011, 03:10 PM
Hello everyone!
After a really long time of inactivity I'm back, yay! Wow, metagame sure has changed, a new tier, that's great. I'm very rusty right now, but I can't wait to start battling and creating teams again :D

Welcome back Omicron! It's nice to see you back. :)

Also, has anyone seen any really cool things or anything on the ladder? Or, I guess, come up with some cool ideas? This metagame is definitely a great place to try ideas, because really anything can flourish if you play it well enough and create a team to support it (as Oppo proved with his tailwind stuff).

I've been playing with a SubPass Mienshao >> Nasty Plot Celebi combination lately. I mean, it's not perfect (and I stole SubPass Mienshao from Oppo) but things that naturally come in on Mienshao like Gliscor and Jellicent just get set up on from Celebi, and if Celebi has its sub up it can nail Lati@s with a well-timed Shadow Ball. Plus Mienshao scares off Tyranitar who seems to enjoy coming in on Celebi (though a +2 Giga Drain hurts like hell for it) and gets a free SubPass somewhere else. I mean it's not great but it's been successful enough to push me through top 100 on ladder. What have you guys been working with/trying/been successful with/have ideas for etc? XD

flamehaze94
July 3rd, 2011, 05:00 PM
I've been using Wobbuffet + SS Cloyster for some clean, straight sweeps. I've been pairing this duo with Drizzle Politoed so Hydro Pump destroys even SpD Jirachi in the rain after Spikes damage. Cloyster is a pokemon that cannot really set up without Focus Sash, but doesn't have enough power without Life Orb. Wobbuffet can easily give it a chance to set up and destroys faster Scarf Pokemon like Terrakion and Latios. I've beaten some really good teams with this both in OU and in Ubers (use Kyogre :p) and people need to seriously reconsider Wobba again. For some reason it's not getting use but when use correctly, oh man, things get ripped apart. Shadow Tag is still broken as hell imo, despite the 3 turn nerf to Encore (in game, it's technically four though :/ since PO counts the turn its used as turn 1. FIX!!!!!)

Tyranitar + Tangrowth is another good one. KG proved to me Tangrowth's great physical bulk which is actually higher than that of Skarmory! Tyranitar can Pursuit Latios that love to switch into Tangrowth (Power Whips still hurts like hell though) and can take Heatran on all day if you have Low Kick. It can also get rid of Ferrothorn through Fire Blast. Regenerate also helps Tangrowth recover off SS damage. It's a little Scizor weak, but ehh... nothing a little Gliscor / Skarmory wouldn't fix.

dreyko
July 3rd, 2011, 05:28 PM
well I've been working with a smash & pass gorebyss holding a white herb. it can take a physical hit decently and after a shell smash it pretty much outspeeds everything with speed EV's and timid nature, it will be able to baton pass to the poke of my choice. i usually pick conkeldurr because it benefits a lot from the speed and attack boost, allowing it to drain punch away and recover some HP.

Vrai
July 4th, 2011, 04:06 AM
"Overcentralization" is the biggest joke of an argument I've ever heard. Something is popular, therefore it must be too good? If you apply that logic every round, you will end up banning literally everything. Overcentralization isn't even a word. Stop using it like popularity decides what is good.
rest of the above post (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3464581&postcount=171)

What are your guys' thoughts on overcentralization? Is it a legitimate argument to use when considering if something is banned? What is the "defintion" of overcentralization? Are there Pokémon that really overcentralize everything? What's the difference between "overcentralizing" and "used often"? If something is overcentralizing, what does that say about it and the rest of the metagame? Would taking out Pokémon deemed "overcentralizing" completely change the metagame, or is really one or two Pokémon out going to make much of a difference? Should the word "overcentralization" exist?

Just trying to kick some life into a creative discussion. You don't have to answer all of that, but rather discuss your thoughts on overcentralization and use those questions maybe as a backboard - if you don't know what to talk about, look up there and see if you can answer a few of those. I tried to come up with some good ones. ^o^

Anti
July 4th, 2011, 10:27 AM
Centralization is caused by most OU Pokemon. I don't know how something can "over-centralize" to be honest. Obviously, if something causes a lot of obvious centralization like Latias did last gen, for instance, it may be an alarm that says that the Pokemon could be broken, but it's not really proof.

Even though (at least on here) I haven't seen the term used much, I've heard a lot of "well Latios/Reuniclus forces you to use Scizor or Sp. Def. Jirachi or Tyranitar" or something like that as proof that Latios/Reuniclus is broken. I don't really agree with this approach, personally. In gen 4, Heracross and Lucario (which of course turned into just Lucario) "made" a lot of people use Gliscor. In my view, something is broken not when it causes a lot of centralization but when even with the centralization it still dominates. But eh, tier stuff really is a toughie.

.Aero
July 4th, 2011, 11:08 AM
Well, jrr has a different definition of overcentralization than I do. I don't think of overcentralization as usage, I think of it as something like Reuniclus. I know Anti hates this argument (probably) because it's what I use to argue that Reuniclus is broken, but it's so damn annoying when you're forced to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor to beat it (Tar doesn't work because Reuniclus survives Crunch and OHKO's back with Focus Blast). Note the fact that they are "SpD" version. They're [I]so ridiculously specialized that it makes their other sets completely inferior because you can either run a regular hard hitting SD Scizor, but lose to things like Reuniclus and Latios, or you can run the SpD version just to beat them. :P

An overcentralized pokemon, in my eyes, is something with decently high usage and causes a player to sacrifice a slot of their team to specifically beat said pokemon with a specialized "counter set". The fact that Reuniclus has two things that can solidly beat it scares me like no other, and I know in a battle with Anti the other day, he had to sack 4 mons just to wear of Trick Room and KO him (then again, he did lose his SpD Jirachi early on due to hax, but regardless...you had decided not to run SpD Rachi or Scizor).

I won't discuss this topic further though...It seems I've had this discussion too many times and it's basically a political debate. xD

Vrai
July 4th, 2011, 02:18 PM
My definition would be somewhere along the lines of "forces the vast majority of the metagame to adapt", but then again that applies to everything. I don't believe in overcentralization, because if I did I wouldn't believe in a metagame. Things are good. Some Pokemon aren't used simply because others exist. See: Starmie. What would you do if you weren't forced to run HP Fire because of Ferrothorn? Starmie could spin on everything. It's one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier (3rd fastest, iirc). It'd smash things on a Drizzle team (imagine: dual-STAB Hydro Pump + Thunder... actually, it still does, even when Ferro is there lol). Worst comes to worst Starmie is a much better Pokemon without Ferrothorn than with it - does that make Ferrothorn "overcentralized"? I don't think so. I think Ferrothorn makes the metagame adapt to it, like literally every other Pokemon. I think that "centralization" is what makes a metagame a metagame - if something's used a lot because it's good, other things will adapt and beat it. You can't use the basis of a metagame as the reason why something is broken in it. :(

@Aero: Debates and discussion is what this thread is for, isn't it?

.Aero
July 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM
Well yeah, I know it's for debates, but I dislike this particular debate...normally I agree with Anti...xD But I don't this time, and his argument skills are top notch, so I try to avoid it with him.

I still stick by my idea that overcentralization is grounds for banning. Honestly, you all can't think that Reuniclus is good to keep around. :[ I've swept teams with him and he's just there to beat mach puncher that would thrash my Terrakion. Heck, he sweeps more teams that my Terrakion, who I built the team around. >.<

Vrai
July 4th, 2011, 08:37 PM
Well yeah, I know it's for debates, but I dislike this particular debate...normally I agree with Anti...xD But I don't this time, and his argument skills are top notch, so I try to avoid it with him.

I still stick by my idea that overcentralization is grounds for banning. Honestly, you all can't think that Reuniclus is good to keep around. :[ I've swept teams with him and he's just there to beat mach puncher that would thrash my Terrakion. Heck, he sweeps more teams that my Terrakion, who I built the team around. >.<

Oh you, don't be intimidated. Intimidation got us nowhere last time - and besides, there's no reason not to. You could get better at arguing your case too!

Ehh, I think that you're simply using the incorrect terminology in my book. Something causing the metagame to work around it is not cause for banning imo because literally every Pokemon does that. Every Pokemon "causes" the meta to change. Maybe to different degrees, but they all adapt. And even if you say "well the ones that change it the most are broken" then we will continually ban everything under that reason until we're left with CB Delibird and Specs Torkoal... which would be an interesting metagame. @@ I dunno, it's the slippery slope argument, but you really can't ban something just because you call it "overcentralizing", because no matter what is at the top, it's going to be "overcentralizing". That's my thoughts, anyway. :(

You can ban something because it breaks those characteristics Smogon sets, but tbh "overcentralization" is not an argument to ban anything in my eyes unless someone can show me why it should be. :(

Opposite Day
July 7th, 2011, 07:58 AM
Ookay how is this for a troll team idea in UU?

Firstly, Linoone exists, and only requires one turn of set up. It is also frail as hell.
Wobbuffet is UU as well. Sense a pattern?
Empoleon and Steelix are the only viable steels.. But Magneton and Dugtrio could fix those.
Froslass with scarf provides Fighting immunity and Spikes, as well as even more ways of crippling walls, such as Chansey and Deo-D etc
Finally Zoroak is UU. Imagine the pressure.

Soooo yeah, any ideas how this could work out? I mean, when I've managed to encore something into what I want and I've gotten rid of the Steels it worked pretty well, but those ghosts still annoy me ;( Almost considering switcheroo aiming mark on the switch, just to hit them with that +6 ES loool

Vrai
July 7th, 2011, 11:27 AM
You could consider CB Azumarill > Dugtrio since Waterfall hits like a truck to Steelix anyway, it lures Empoleon for Magneton, and Aqua Jet mauls most available ghosts iirc unless someone's going to use Eviolite Frillish on you but you have Seed Bomb for that. :)

.Aero
July 7th, 2011, 01:47 PM
Well, after arriving at a verdict through calculations as well as some research on Oppo's part, we concluded a small debate/investigation on the PO server. After finishing, I realized it would have been an awesome topic for this thread. D: So I'll just post our findings here in order for others to see what we found out:

The Question
I was wondering, we all treat Choice Band/Specs/Scarf as a +1 boost to their respective stat, right? And we know that a +2 simply doubles the stat. But I was wondering, what would happen if you somehow managed to pass a +1 boost on attack to a Choice Banded pokemon. Would the attack stat double? Or would the two 50% bonuses act separately?

The Verdict
Turns out, Choice Band is a separate boost that acts outside of the normal boosts. This means that the stat won't double like a +2, but instead be multiplied by x2.25, making it even more deadly! I only ran one calculation, but Oppo said that on Shoddy it used to act as a x2.25 boost.

I chose CBHAxorus against physically defensive Skarm; here are the results:

252 +2 Atk Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 40.12% - 47.31%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 +1 Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory: 44.91% - 52.99%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

As you can see, the Choice Band with a +1 does more damage, although not entirely significant in this case (because of Lefties), but I can imagine it makes a difference on some pokemon if somebody ever decides to pass boosts to Choiced pokemon. The only practical situation I can think of where a boost and choice item could be applied is on something like CBGyara with Moxie or CBKrookodile with Moxie, maybe Mence and Heracross too.

Oppo and I did some testing on the PO server with the same CBHaxorus with +1 and the +2 one. Turns out the calcs match. So...weeee.

I just thought it was interesting is all, and it sort of bugged me for a while and I never thought to ask the question until now. :]

flamehaze94
July 8th, 2011, 03:35 PM
Yeah, Choice items are a 1.5x modifier to a respective stat, so it's slightly different then a +1. Of course, this doesn't make a big difference but it's still very nice to know.

Also, rain is everywhere in DW ~_~ I'm going back to WiFi

Vrai
July 9th, 2011, 01:15 AM
Yeah, Choice items are a 1.5x modifier to a respective stat, so it's slightly different then a +1. Of course, this doesn't make a big difference but it's still very nice to know.

Also, rain is everywhere in DW ~_~ I'm going back to WiFi

Is Drizzle + SS not banned in DW? If it isn't there's no wonder rain is everywhere, lol. You get an instant boost in strength, speed, and "everyone else is doing it" - plus there's like no way to stop Drizzle + SS - sure, you can check one of the sweepers, but then another one comes in and finishes off said counter, then proceeds to smash the rest of your team. I dunno why they haven't banned it already. :(

On another random note, CB Gyara has had an... interesting effect on my thrown-together rain team. It 2hkos things like Skarmory for Scizor to come in and sweep later and lures Ferrothorn for Scizor to set up on and does a chunk to Rotom-W, though not as much as I'd like it to. However it does outspeed random bulky versions of Rotom-W which is cute. Plus it lived a random unboosted Jirachi Thunderbolt. \o/

Skip Shot
July 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM
Been gone for 3 weeks... someone wanna catch me up to speed on the new tiers and star Pokemon that have come out recently? im out of battling shape lolol

PDC
July 11th, 2011, 05:18 PM
I figured I should start contributing to the "overcentralization" stuff.

Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word. If something is used alot, it does not mean it is broken in the slightest bit (Well in Latias's case in Gen 4, it was correct). Also, the Reuniclus arguement also relates how Jirachi is used to also take on Latias, Latios, Gengar, etc. Same thing with Scizor. They both are used to handle a large majority of Pokemon in the current metagame.

Jake♫
July 13th, 2011, 11:14 AM
Haven't we had the discussion over overcentralization before? It's such a bad argument, but everyone else already explained it better than me so I'll just say tl;dr go read everyone elses.

Also PO server being down = Sad Red Panda

Vrai
July 13th, 2011, 11:19 AM
lol jake

and yeah, the server being down sucks. it'll be back up soon-ish though i thinkkk... ;-;

only seven more days for reqs woo who wants to help me get them again y/y

Perrie ✿
July 13th, 2011, 11:20 AM
Urgh ): My day has been so boring without the server! >:(

Cycle
July 13th, 2011, 11:21 AM
I figured I should start contributing to the "overcentralization" stuff.

Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word. If something is used alot, it does not mean it is broken in the slightest bit (Well in Latias's case in Gen 4, it was correct). Also, the Reuniclus arguement also relates how Jirachi is used to also take on Latias, Latios, Gengar, etc. Same thing with Scizor. They both are used to handle a large majority of Pokemon in the current metagame.

But being used a lot is not overcentralization. Overcentralization is when something is so broken that a team must specifically prepare one/a few pokemon for it, and its counters are few and far between.

no I do not think that overcentralization is a good arguement I'm just pointing this out

Jake♫
July 13th, 2011, 11:22 AM
I assume you mean reqs for suspect voting Vrai?

Vrai
July 13th, 2011, 11:28 AM
But being used a lot is not overcentralization. Overcentralization is when something is so broken that a team must specifically prepare one/a few pokemon for it, and its counters are few and far between.

no I do not think that overcentralization is a good arguement I'm just pointing this out

But generally overcentralization is associated with usage. When something is used a lot, naturally things change to prepare for it. You can't be overcentralizing if you aren't used is all.

Regardless of definition, 'overcentralization' is not a ban-worthy offense.

I assume you mean reqs for suspect voting Vrai?

Yes. :(

yankee0724
July 13th, 2011, 12:35 PM
Oh my god, I'm actually putting something in here. I'll probably forgot I did this and not look again for a week or something like always.

Anyway...there's a difference between being used a lot and something being overcentralizing.

I will use the Ferrothorn example somebody brought up in here. Yes, it is on just about every single team ever made, but it is far from overcentralizing when it is scared off by pretty much anything that COULD have a fire move or a fighting move. Whereas something like Latias really is only scared of random stuff like for example Scaqrf Special Lucario using Shadow Ball or something dumb like that [probably not close to a OHKO, but you get the point].

You basically HAVE to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor, two pokemon that could be 1000X more effective used in a different way, if you don't want your team to get smashed by Specs Latios. THAT, to me, is what makes something overcentralizing. When, no matter how good your team is, you basically NEED to run something in order to not lose to something that is simply a hit and run pokemon. Yeah...that's overcentralization at it's simplest.

Exile
July 13th, 2011, 02:53 PM
Oh my god, I'm actually putting something in here. I'll probably forgot I did this and not look again for a week or something like always.

Anyway...there's a difference between being used a lot and something being overcentralizing.

I will use the Ferrothorn example somebody brought up in here. Yes, it is on just about every single team ever made, but it is far from overcentralizing when it is scared off by pretty much anything that COULD have a fire move or a fighting move. Whereas something like Latias really is only scared of random stuff like for example Scaqrf Special Lucario using Shadow Ball or something dumb like that [probably not close to a OHKO, but you get the point].

You basically HAVE to run SpD Jirachi or Scizor, two pokemon that could be 1000X more effective used in a different way, if you don't want your team to get smashed by Specs Latios. THAT, to me, is what makes something overcentralizing. When, no matter how good your team is, you basically NEED to run something in order to not lose to something that is simply a hit and run pokemon. Yeah...that's overcentralization at it's simplest.

Pretty much this. People hate Ferrothorn because you /need/ a fire or fighting [preferably the former] type attack to beat it, which isn't a huge inconvenience since both of those are already common attacking types. Reuniclus and Latios, or a combo of both are the bane of any battler's existence, as they almost require that you have one of the mons yankee mentioned, or your team gets swept. I'm hoping both will be banned in the near future, as it's not very fun if I have to sacrifice individuality and possibly synergy to make sure that my team isn't weak to these two monstrous Pokemon.


Overcentralization is a pathetic arguement. Ok, so that means we're banning Ferrothorn if I am correct? Yeah, I thought so. It's not even a word.


Isn't that a variant on an excerpt from user Haunter's signature?

Jake♫
July 13th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I'd just like to announce that the PO server is back up ^_^

Exile
July 13th, 2011, 04:49 PM
I'd just like to announce that the PO server is back up ^_^

Instead of just making another postcount+ post like our friend Jakey did here, telling you all to join my tour, I'll bring up yet another cute subject.

With the abundance of weather and Pokemon that become broken through their abilities, complex bans have become a subject of debate. What do you think of Complex bans and what should Smogon's policy be regarding abilities that are only abused by one Pokemon [such as Speed Boost and Sand Veil], should the Pokemon itself be banned, or should the ability be banned?

.Aero
July 13th, 2011, 08:23 PM
I have no problems with complex bans. Mainly because I'd love to see Chomp back in OU and it was sad to see him go away again (even more so this time because I actually got to use him. I joined serious competitive back when Plat was released, so basically I never got to use him).

I don't see the problem. :P Seems like the majority of the reason they're not doing complex bans is based on precedent. It think that's a terrible reason to be honest. New generation, new rules, at least that's my views. (inb4 rejected by majority of community).

dreyko
July 14th, 2011, 08:20 PM
To add another discussion topic, i was wondering what are some of the major advantages and disadvantages of OU pokemon.

a disadvantage i think is that with OU pokemans is that it can be fairly easy to predict what set is being used on a particular pokemon, making the prediction aspect of the battle a lot easier for the opponent.

anyways, what do you all think about my question above?

Conjurer
July 19th, 2011, 07:42 AM
I don't mind complex bans either, lol. I seriously don't get why there's WoT of debate on this. We had to deal with Soul Dew and Brightpowder bans; why complain now?

As to answer dreyko's question, this is basically predictability vs. power. Personally I prefer the latter, since I only play on PO, where if I don't know such and such about a certain Pokemon I'm facing I can just open up Smogon. :P

.Gamer
July 19th, 2011, 08:57 PM
To add another discussion topic, i was wondering what are some of the major advantages and disadvantages of OU pokemon.

a disadvantage i think is that with OU pokemans is that it can be fairly easy to predict what set is being used on a particular pokemon, making the prediction aspect of the battle a lot easier for the opponent.

anyways, what do you all think about my question above?

Advantages of using OU pokemon: they win.

Disadvantages of using OU pokemon: end list.


There is no disadvantage to using an OU pokemon, hence why its OU. I don't battle anymore or really even visit this site, (I just stopped by to see whats up, seems like ya'll are pretty busy and I guess D_A quit? anyway....) but I know that the general formula if you will for competitive Pokemon is the same. OU pokemon are OU for a reason: they check the stronger pokemon or they are the stronger pokemon. That's why they are desirable. Realistically, if you wanted to use Foretress instead of the new grass/steel version you probably could, but why would you? They are basically identical, but the new one has leech seed and better offensive skills making it a more desirable pokemon. You could use Altaria instead of Salamence, but Salamence a better choice because it has better stats and stuff.


Also, on the argument of "over-centralization requires a ban" I don't think it does. If that was true, then all dragon types except like dratini and altaria (because they are about equally as strong) would be ubers, because being Dragon-type or /Dragon-type is automatically over-centralizing. When only 1 type in the game resists said type and said type only has 2 less than prevalent weaknesses and an entry hazard can be set up to cripple any pokemon with the type of said weakness by taking away as little as 12.5% and as much as 50% upon entry, it's going to be the dominant type. Gamefreak basically screwed competitive battling by over-saturating games with about 250 new dragon-type pokemon every game, and since they usually come with ridiculously good stats relative to everything else, they are going to be used a lot. I mean, honestly its not steel-types that are too common, you wouldn't see them nearly as much if dragon's were less common, its that dragons are too common and too big of a threat, so if you don't have something you're going to get dominated.

If I could make a parallel to another game, it's like Call of Duty, its not that Assault Rifles are too good, its that they are very good. So if you don't use an Assault Rifle or an SMG, you are basically crippling yourself. Same thing goes with Dragon-types.

Also, I wanna make a disclaimer that I know next to nothing about Gen 5 competitive (or noncompetitive) pokemon, but I'm pretty confident nothing has changed too drastically.


P.S. hi everyone.

Jake♫
July 19th, 2011, 09:05 PM
Shamelessly agreeing with Gamer.

SPEAKING OF WHICH GET ON PO NOW

wolf
July 25th, 2011, 02:36 PM
Just so everyone knows, PC server is back up.

Exile
July 27th, 2011, 02:54 AM
New Topic time~

So, for those of you who have watched and actually paid attention to the most recent Smogcast [I look at you, Vrai], you may have caught the tidbit about Wobbuffet. For those who didn't, the panelists pretty much said it was Antimetagame and is still very threatening even with Encore getting nerfed and should be deserving of a ban mainly because it takes away a player's ability to switch.

So, what are everyone's thoughts on the big, blue punching bag? How threatening do you find it? Is it worthy of a ban?

Perrie ✿
July 27th, 2011, 05:00 AM
I've never actually used Wobbuffet myself. But I have faced them and they're not that hard to get rid of, if you play your cards right. Not being able to switch is pretty annoying but with the team preview I always knows that I have Wobbu to deal with and play cautiously.

I say keep it in OU or UU Idk what it's in atm. I rarely see them, anyway,

Vrai
July 27th, 2011, 06:14 AM
I've never actually used Wobbuffet myself. But I have faced them and they're not that hard to get rid of, if you play your cards right. Not being able to switch is pretty annoying but with the team preview I always knows that I have Wobbu to deal with and play cautiously.

I say keep it in OU or UU Idk what it's in atm. I rarely see them, anyway,

Ehhh I had a longer post written but my computer decided to go "LOL U" and deleted it. :(

Anyway, the problem with Wobb is not that it's "not that hard to get rid of if you play your cards right", it's that it is that hard to get rid of if they play their cards right. I've played very poor Wobbuffet users and very, very good ones and honestly if someone plays Wobbuffet effectively it's incredibly hard to beat. Plus it's got massive utility; trapping and killing scarfers, weather inducers... plus you can encore a set-up move and then go kill their set-upper or set up on your own, depending on what you encored. It's an amazing utility if played effectively and while it doesn't have much to say recovery-wise, you always have wishpassing. :(

I'd probably abstain if given a vote, however. I'm pretty sure they're bent on it being broken in UU but I haven't played UU in a while anyway. Wobb + Dugtrio is apparently insanely broken. :<

2Cool4Mewtwo
July 27th, 2011, 07:23 AM
New Topic time~

So, for those of you who have watched and actually paid attention to the most recent Smogcast [I look at you, Vrai], you may have caught the tidbit about Wobbuffet. For those who didn't, the panelists pretty much said it was Antimetagame and is still very threatening even with Encore getting nerfed and should be deserving of a ban mainly because it takes away a player's ability to switch.

So, what are everyone's thoughts on the big, blue punching bag? How threatening do you find it? Is it worthy of a ban?
It's a bit harder for them to predict if you have a strong mixed attacker, though they are quite annoying to deal with if a pokemon lacks taunt.

.Aero
July 27th, 2011, 08:59 AM
There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.

Vrai
July 27th, 2011, 09:15 AM
There are a couple things that have hindered Wobb this generation:

1. Wifi Clause - no more surprise switch-ins from Wobb to take down your pokemon easily. Anyone who sees Wobb on the opponent's team will realize that if you're sending in a potential setup sweeper, it would be best to switch to something that you know can safely OHKO Wobb.

2. Power creep - Pokemon this gen have more potential to OHKO him and not have to worry about being Counter/Magic Coat bait. Keep in mind, I haven't really tested this, it just seems reasonable is all (depending the pokemon). Something like CB Haxorus can probably OHKO with outrage, hell, he could just taunt him on the SD / DD sets. Which reminds me with priority taunters like tornadus and thundurus, taunt is more common than ever (Jellicent too!).

3. Encore is now only 3 turns instead of 4-8 turns. That's a huge shot to Wobb. He used to be able to Encore, and then Tickle / Charm the opponent until the pokemon was forced to use Struggle. This isn't possible anymore because of Encore's 3 turn duration and its already pitiful PP.

That's my opinion on why Wobb shouldn't be banned. I am theorymon'ing yes, I don't play UU, but I feel these are the justifications that Smogon used for taking him down from uber in the first place.

All of those things are definitely very true. Howeverrrr, the biggest thing here is that nearly everything that has had Power Creep is found in OU. What is super-powerful, insanely strong, able to one-shot Wobbuffet in UU? CB U-Turn Scizor, maybe? Specs Yanmega? Point is, power creep is nonexistant in UU; and so is Taunt iirc, for that matter. Taunt Mismagius is probably the only thing that frequently uses it and half the time Sub is used anyway. The Encore nerf is really why they brought him down from Ubers and makes him much much much less godlike but he still has the potential to either set up a gamebreaking sweep or trap and kill basically any Pokemon on the other team. Tickle Wobbuffet + Dugtrio is very popular down in UU to trap and kill off things like Chansey, etc. It's likely to be a suspect if not banned in the UU nominations next round because it really is just much more effective down there where things are just -less strong-.

Anti
July 27th, 2011, 10:21 AM
I don't really get the thing about Taunt being an issue for Wobbuffet. I mean yeah, it beats it, but it's not like Ice Shard Mamoswine beating Salamence in that it doesn't prevent Wobbuffet from doing its job. As a trapper, only a few things on a team need to be vulnerable to it for it to have an impact. And if it gets a kill and a Taunt user comes in, Wobbuffet can just switch out.

That being said, I used it when I first started with BW and found him tricky to use, mostly because Encore would be a real pain with how it doesn't last as long. I was the most successful when I knew its limits. Sometimes I would overestimate it and it would get beaten up. But it can definitely be useful.

Also just to get back to over centralization for a second, everything good causes centralization. You can say Fire- and fighting-type moves are useful even without it around, but SDef Scizor and Jirachi are useful even without Latios or Reuniclus to wall. I don't really get the difference.

You could argue that Latios and Reuniclus cause more centralization than Ferrothorn or anything else, but just because something causes more centralization than other Pokemon doesn't mean that it's broken. I think that's where the argument kinda breaks down.

Dark Azelf
August 4th, 2011, 01:25 PM
Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

- Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
- Weather
- Dragon + Steel spam.

Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

Thats literally all the metagame is. -_-

Exile
August 4th, 2011, 01:37 PM
Wow has anyone being playing the metagame recently ? Its horrible. =/

Ive just been laddering and i swear i must keep facing the same teams over and over again or something. I got top 20 and this is all you see;

- Annoying U-Turn and Volt Switch spam teams (where have these all come from ?)
- Weather
- Dragon + Steel spam.

Also dont see why Dragonite is getting used more, its really bad. Its slow, easy to stop and its ability hardly ever even factors thanks to Sand and SR being ridiculously common.

Thats literally all the metagame is. -_-

THIS THIS THIS THIS.

The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.

Dark Azelf
August 4th, 2011, 02:08 PM
THIS THIS THIS THIS.

The Annoying V-Switch U-Turn teams aren't really bannable, since neither Scizor nor Rotom-W is horribly broken enough to be worthy of nomination, but the fact that Rotom-W beats Scizor's counters so well, and vice versa makes them extremely dangerous and annoying, especially when the Scizor has Roost on it. I figure people are using these teams because of how effective they are and how tough they are to beat unless you play your cards right, meaning that they're an easy road to getting vreqs. Dragonite's actually pretty dangerous though, and can function as an extremely bulky sweeper due to MultiScale.

Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/

Exile
August 4th, 2011, 02:11 PM
Not to mention all the stupid random crap people use. I mean seriously, why would you use NP Celebi when Latios/ Balloon Heatran etc are like on near every team ? ~~

Also, CM Latios is very broken. :/

Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.

Dark Azelf
August 4th, 2011, 02:37 PM
Well Rotom-W and Ferrothorn are on nearly every team as well, and Celebi can deal with both easily, as well as many other Pokemon. I've never fought CM Latios, but I figure Jirachi handles it in the same way it does Reuniclus, and has a much easier time doing so, since Latios is frailer.

The offensive CM LO Latios in rain really wears on even SpDef Jirachi with Surf. ):

In rain, unboosted Surf does : 36.6% - 43.3%

+1 LO Surf does ; 54.7% - 64.6%

So you have to keep your Jirachi at tip top condition throughout the whole match which is easier said than done.

CM LO Latios in rain also OHKO's standard CB Scizor at +1 and does 79.9% - 94.2% to max hp/max sp.def Adamant Scizor. ~~

Then in the last slot you can choose between HP Fight to dent Ferrothorn and KO Tar or Psyshock for Blissey. Weee fun. x.x

Vrai
August 4th, 2011, 04:50 PM
I've caught several DD Latios w/ Waterfall in rain. I guess it's a neat idea, depending on how worn down Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Zong on the other team is. I dunno what the third move is, just Waterfall/DD/Outrage because I've always managed to get it down before it gets out of hand but it seems like an innovative idea to try.

Rotom-W and Scizor are popular together because they easily wear down on each other's counters and easily shift momentum when used effectively. Couple that with hazards and a strong, fluid offensive core and you have a team capable of breaking top 20. NP Bi rose in usage because it can effectively OHKO both (not in rain!). And really, don't downplay Celebi so much. Excadrill is still used a lot despite the fact that every team has a Gliscor and/or Skarmory. Celebi can run Earth Power for Tran (and works as a cute Tran lure in that regard) and there are tons of ways to deal with Latios. Even if one Pokemon is walled you have the rest of your team to deal with that, lol. And Celebi does force switches which you can take advantage of, etc.

I've heard a lot about CM Latios lately too. Then again, it's crazy how many stay in on ScarfTar Crunch to get OHKOd as they try to dent it with HP Fighting probably. ScarfTar is actually really usable imo, nabbing Lati@s, Gengar, Thundurus, Tornadus, all of the base 108s, Starmie... idk, its just been very effective for me and I have no reason to change the set.

There's innovation, you just have to look for it. Isn't that the way it always is?

Dark Azelf
August 4th, 2011, 05:25 PM
I've caught several DD Latios w/ Waterfall in rain. I guess it's a neat idea, depending on how worn down Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Zong on the other team is. I dunno what the third move is, just Waterfall/DD/Outrage because I've always managed to get it down before it gets out of hand but it seems like an innovative idea to try.

Rotom-W and Scizor are popular together because they easily wear down on each other's counters and easily shift momentum when used effectively. Couple that with hazards and a strong, fluid offensive core and you have a team capable of breaking top 20. NP Bi rose in usage because it can effectively OHKO both (not in rain!). And really, don't downplay Celebi so much. Excadrill is still used a lot despite the fact that every team has a Gliscor and/or Skarmory. Celebi can run Earth Power for Tran (and works as a cute Tran lure in that regard) and there are tons of ways to deal with Latios. Even if one Pokemon is walled you have the rest of your team to deal with that, lol. And Celebi does force switches which you can take advantage of, etc.

I've heard a lot about CM Latios lately too. Then again, it's crazy how many stay in on ScarfTar Crunch to get OHKOd as they try to dent it with HP Fighting probably. ScarfTar is actually really usable imo, nabbing Lati@s, Gengar, Thundurus, Tornadus, all of the base 108s, Starmie... idk, its just been very effective for me and I have no reason to change the set.

There's innovation, you just have to look for it. Isn't that the way it always is?

Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/

Vrai
August 4th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/

Ehh, yeah. You always do have the option of forgoing Nasty Plot and running another coverage move there because if what you're looking for is something that can deal with a variety of threats setting up for a sweep isn't so necessary. Plus the only time I ever really find myself needing Nasty Plot is versus those Tyranitars and Jirachis that end up coming in on you anyway, and then you'd still only 2hko with the appropriate coverage move with Bi anyway. I've never actually used HP Ice on Celebi actually; I don't imagine it'll do enough to anything but Dragonite anyway since the other two have the bulk to take random HP Ices and OHKO Celebi.

Excadrill is very good, I'll agree. Buuut the only time that it's really um an issue for me is if I let it get any kind of setup. More often than not every single mon on my team carries a supereffective move on it somehow, and then having a solid check in Rotom-W, Bronzong, or Gliscor is helpful. A lot of people are starting to catch on that Excadrill is the best spinner in the game and starting to abuse that, lol. @@

DD Latios actually sounds fun lol. I'm gonna try that later. Roserade has actually jumped up in usage lately, probably mostly because of Rotom-W. There have really been a lot of people trying to follow after Bloo's semistall-ish team that he won the Frontier with, using a basic core that checks each weather and then building the rest around that. They're interesting but no one can really play them as well as Bloo did, lol. :(


...

(23:09:36) oppoSITE DAY left the channel.
(23:13:23) +Aero: each moment that passes
(23:13:29) +Aero: is one moment closer. :<
(23:13:30) +wolf: let's hope he'll find time to come on every once and a while
(23:14:06) +Anti: i hope he makes an epic return in two years
(23:14:06) Farmer Bill: hear hear

Exile
August 5th, 2011, 05:23 AM
Well the problem with Celebi is it has 4ms syndrome. If you dont use HP Fire you Scizor, Ferro, Skarm etc bait and if you dont use Hp Ice you lose to things like Hydreigon, Latios, Dragonite etc and without Psychic you cant check Conkeldurr which is one of its selling points imo. Excadrill is very different in that its only walled effectively by Gliscor (Skarm is a crap Excadrill counter imo, Rock Slide Flinches wear it down and it cant do anything back and more often than not its Rapid Spin fodder for Excadrill anyway lol) and Bronzong to an extent otherwise you need fighting/water priority.

Havent seen a DD Latios yet, but i can imagine luring and OHKOing Jirachi and Tyranitar with DD LO EQ is hilarious lol. I still fail to see why it isnt banned though, its so obviously broken. ~~

Also ive been seen a couple of these semi stall teams with stuff like (Toxic) Spikes Rest Roserade and SR Heatran. They dont seem to work at all though lol. :/


Well Celebi takes a huge chunk out of Conk with Giga Drain, even at +0, so I don't think Psychic is needed, and I don't see the value in HP Ice because Hydreigon are usually scarfed and Latios straight up outspeeds. I agree about the Skarm thing, since I've used Skarm as a last resort on Excadrill myself, and it can't do much back. And this team uses both (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3452167) and also "Worked", considering it beat the frontier. I think the team also serves as a "personification" what the metagame should be. It's capable of handling weather without using any, but Latios and Reuniclus are the only two Pokemon capable of tearing a hole through the team, which should serve as a red flag that the two are broken, in that they restrict defensive team to use Specially Defensive Jirachi, CB Tar or ultimately be swept by Latios/Reuniclus or a combo of both. Also, goodbye to Opposite Day.

Kevin Garrett
August 5th, 2011, 07:29 AM
Celebi doesn't suffer badly from 4 move slot syndrome. Its lack of universal coverage is amended by good team support. Every team needs to be able to cover the major Steel- and Dragon-type threats. Hidden Power Fire is more of a necessity on Celebi than Hidden Power Ice because its immediate checks will likely be a Steel-type. Dragons can be handled through defensive coverage, Toxic Spikes, or even Pursuit, depending upon what the Dragon in question is. Not to mention a lot of Dragons are faster than Celebi, meaning they will get a good shot at you before you can attack them. The last move can either be Psychic or Recover depending upon what you are going for. Psychic gives Celebi a lot of good neutral coverage. As for the Tabloo RMT being what the metagame should be, I disagree with that notion entirely. There shouldn't be a stigma about using weather if it's allowed. Just because the two threats you mentioned, Latios and Reuniclus, are good against Tabloo doesn't mean they are broken. Every team is incapable of handling every threat. Tabloo is not just weak to those Pokemon either. It is also weak to a good Dugtrio Sun or balanced/stall Sand teams. It relies on a lot of passive damage to be good and with Gengar as the only Spin blocker, it makes it difficult to play against something with an offensive Spinner.

Dark Azelf
August 10th, 2011, 04:08 PM
http://i51.tinypic.com/2z3rxaa.jpg


One tends to get bored sometimes. =P

At long last huh ? #2 @ ou ranking kept haunting me lol

EDIT:

I really dislike the rating system of Pokemon Online, you lose once and you're essentially screwed see: e.g ass -23 matches. And have to start from alot lower, makes it so much more tedious, ugh lol. :/ Needs changing imo.


EDIT 2: Wait Oppo left ? :/

.Aero
August 10th, 2011, 08:08 PM
o.o Very nice elf. :3 And yeah, Oppo left for his on the 4th (http://www.pokecommunity.com/blog.php?b=11894). :[ It was sad. ;o;

Dark Azelf
August 11th, 2011, 05:24 PM
o.o Very nice elf. :3 And yeah, Oppo left for his on the 4th (http://www.pokecommunity.com/blog.php?b=11894). :[ It was sad. ;o;

I increased my rating to a whopping 1508 now, "just because i can" lol. Closest person has 1483. =P The ladder is REALLY hard atm, pain in the ass. Glad im seeing some cool new stuff though like Eo Ut Mortus using SD Cacturne in OU and getting top ten.

Damn, that sucks. I wanted to organise something with him cos he is in England and we could hang out/go drinking etc. :/

Vrai
August 11th, 2011, 05:36 PM
I increased my rating to a whopping 1508 now, "just because i can" lol. Closest person has 1483. =P The ladder is REALLY hard atm, pain in the ass. Glad im seeing some cool new stuff though like Eo Ut Mortus using SD Cacturne in OU and getting top ten.

Damn, that sucks. I wanted to organise something with him cos he is in England and we could hang out/go drinking etc. :/

Hehe I never saw his Cacturne actually do anything in my match vs him. ;) I assumed it was a Spikes variant though. :x

I'm getting around to nearly perfecting my team, I think. Despite how awesome Crustle is, really all it did for my team was ensure that SR was up and I needed better checks for things like Volcarona than that lol. :( Speaking of which! Volcarona is really, really annoying when it's played right. There are like no checks for it once it gets beyond +1 and can like KO everything with a little hazard support. Scarf Terrakion is like the best 'check' for it imo but then you have to rely on Stone Edge and the fact that it doesn't just attack with its HP of choice (or Psychic lol) and mash you. You have to rely on getting rocks up and keeping them up (which is hard when their team is like focused on keeping them down lol) to prevent it from really doing its job. Maybe I'm just battling really good Volcarona users but its gotten to the point that I'm just like "ugh" whenever I see one. :(

There's a way to contact him if you really wanna but idk if he can even go do stuff like that with how focused all of his stuff is lol. :(

Dark Azelf
August 11th, 2011, 05:55 PM
Hehe I never saw his Cacturne actually do anything in my match vs him. ;) I assumed it was a Spikes variant though. :x

I'm getting around to nearly perfecting my team, I think. Despite how awesome Crustle is, really all it did for my team was ensure that SR was up and I needed better checks for things like Volcarona than that lol. :( Speaking of which! Volcarona is really, really annoying when it's played right. There are like no checks for it once it gets beyond +1 and can like KO everything with a little hazard support. Scarf Terrakion is like the best 'check' for it imo but then you have to rely on Stone Edge and the fact that it doesn't just attack with its HP of choice (or Psychic lol) and mash you. You have to rely on getting rocks up and keeping them up (which is hard when their team is like focused on keeping them down lol) to prevent it from really doing its job. Maybe I'm just battling really good Volcarona users but its gotten to the point that I'm just like "ugh" whenever I see one. :(

There's a way to contact him if you really wanna but idk if he can even go do stuff like that with how focused all of his stuff is lol. :(

He abuses SD Sub Cacturne and that new Glislure set to abuse sandveil hax, its annoying. But yeah you crushed him badly lol.

Volcarona is BS really, i hate facing them too. If you cant keep rocks up, "good luck" and those Morning Sun/Chesto Rest sets UGHHHH. Chesto Rest even sets up on Toxic Blissey and waters lol. Snorlax is an overlooked counter for it though. Other than that you have revenge kill it pretty much. =/

Gonna nom Reuniclus, Sandveil/Snowcloak (you would not believe how many Cacturne/Gliscor sweeps ive seen by EuM because of this), Latios and then something of either Baton Pass MM Espeon, Smeargle, Gorebyss, Shell Smash + Baton Pass on the same set, SmashPass w/MM Espeon on the same team this round. Just something to stop BP BS, even with multiple PHazers (even Dragon Tail) its too powerful and you NEED Haze/Clear Smog (lol steel receiver) or P-Song to have even a hope, (or Brick Break i guess for screens idk) that or you can try and pull like a lucky string of crits out of the bag. :/ I think Espeon overpowers it mainly though as you literally cant stop it doing its job so i need to think about it lol.

Sure id like to contact him since i didnt say a chance to say goodbye properly either. He better be able to drink too but being Mormon i doubt it haha. I dont know anything about that religion sadly so i wouldn't know if he can. Only thing i know is you're meant to be allowed multiple wives ? :s

Vrai
August 11th, 2011, 06:16 PM
He abuses SD Sub Cacturne and that new Glislure set to abuse sandveil hax, its annoying. But yeah you crushed him badly lol.

Volcarona is BS really, i hate facing them too. If you cant keep rocks up, "good luck" and those Morning Sun/Chesto Rest sets UGHHHH. Chesto Rest even sets up on Toxic Blissey and waters lol. Snorlax is an overlooked counter for it though. Other than that you have revenge kill it pretty much. =/

Gonna nom Reuniclus, Sandveil/Snowcloak (you would not believe how many Cacturne/Gliscor sweeps ive seen by EuM because of this), Latios and then something of either Baton Pass MM Espeon, Smeargle, Gorebyss, Shell Smash + Baton Pass on the same set, SmashPass w/MM Espeon on the same team this round. Just something to stop BP BS, even with multiple PHazers (even Dragon Tail) its too powerful and you NEED Haze/Clear Smog (lol steel receiver) or P-Song to have even a hope, (or Brick Break i guess for screens idk) that or you can try and pull like a lucky string of crits out of the bag. :/ I think Espeon overpowers it mainly though as you literally cant stop it doing its job so i need to think about it lol.

Sure id like to contact him since i didnt say a chance to say goodbye properly either. He better be able to drink too but being mormon i doubt it haha.

I feel like I've helped to show how good SV Scor is, really. I've been spamming it on the ladder for the past month and then really it's been my MVP. Lack of recovery sucks so you can't use it to check things like Excadrill so much anymore but really it doesn't matter when it demolishes everything slower anyway (seriously +2 Acrobatics OHKOing things like phys def Jellicent lol) and like the only true checks that aren't mashed by Acrobatics are like Skarmory + Bronzong (and um scarf Icicle Spear Mamo. I ran into that once. :S). I run enough defense to not get its sub broken by Forry Gyro Ball and the standard SpD 'rachi Iron Head which gives me two mons that I really just love to see on the opposing team because when they come out, Gliscor comes in and then wrecks half their team whether with hax or just pure power and then the rest of my team cleans up. It's really like insane how good it is, even though I keep getting annoying people that are like HAX and then stall out the timer lol.

I'm not really sure who I'd nom if I got reqs. I popped up to #60ish earlier today but I kept getting railed by the fact that my computer sucks and shuts off randomly so yeah. :C I haven't really given much thought to it anyway.

Speaking of Baton Pass I've seen a jump in those kinds of teams lately. They're really not bad especially when all the passing is done will and you don't get lucky enough to KO Espeon early on (lol Roar). Espeon really makes even pure Baton Pass teams good/decent now that its legal. :/

edit: i didn't see this part of your post lol

I really dislike the rating system of Pokemon Online, you lose once and you're essentially screwed see: e.g ass -23 matches. And have to start from alot lower, makes it so much more tedious, ugh lol. :/ Needs changing imo.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaah that's BS and annoying as hell. It's nice to know you can beat two of the top ten guys in a row to go up like idk +25 and then lose one match to a random nob and lose that gain entirely. :/ It's also nice when you get +0 -32 matches.... that's really a wonderful time.

.Aero
August 13th, 2011, 02:25 PM
Attention all Pokemon Online players!

The PokeCommunity Pokemon Online server is back online. Come join us. ^o^ :3 ^o^ desu~

Exile
August 13th, 2011, 03:17 PM
Attention all Pokemon Online players!

The PokeCommunity Pokemon Online server is back online. Come join us. ^o^ :3 ^o^ desu~

Ok n___n, so time for a new topic o3o ^o^, desu~

Alright, so basically users Vrai and Eo Ut Mortus have been steadily dominating the ladder with a very controversial ability, known by no other name than Sand Veil. Basically, SubSD Cacturne and Gliscor work in the same way that Garchomp did with that very ability, the latter being more effective than the former. I've fought said Gliscor and needless to say, it managed to beat Rotom-W, one of its best counters, due to Hydro Pump constantly missing.

>Should Smogon have banned Sand Veil on all Pokemon that have it, instead of its #1 Abuser, Garchomp?

>Do you think Garchomp deserves to be unbanned with Rough Skin, if Sand Veil is nommed and banned/

Dark Azelf
August 13th, 2011, 03:35 PM
>Should Smogon have banned Sand Veil on all Pokemon that have it, instead of its #1 Abuser, Garchomp?

>Do you think Garchomp deserves to be unbanned with Rough Skin, if Sand Veil is nommed and banned/

Only when all the alternate abilities are released id go for this. If you ban sandveil (and snow cloak should go too to avoid being bias) now you place a soft ban on Sandslash, Beartic and Froslass because they have no alternate abilities....yet...

Id like Garchomp unbanned simply because its probably one of the best scarfers and im sick of broken crap like Volcarona atm (who is rightfully getting some suspect attention now that i brought it up in the thread on smogon).

FaWa
August 13th, 2011, 04:32 PM
Maybe I'm getting lucky on the ladder but I haven't had too much trouble with Volcaronas. The ones I usually face aren't very potent at anything. But yea I think I'm just getting lucky.

As for Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, I really think the only bans should be SVChomp and SVGliscor. I don't really see anyone else who's that broken.

.Aero
August 13th, 2011, 07:01 PM
Considering I've stopped battling for a lil' bit, I'm not too familiar with the trend of sand veil abuse outside of Garchomp back before it was banned. I understand now people are running that Sub / SD / Acrobatics / Earthquake Gliscor with Flying Gem to basically hammer anything that decides to join them. Seems a bit overpowered to me.

Cacturne I dunno about. I used brightpowder sand veil Cacnea in LC if that counts at all (since brightpowder isn't banned in LC), and it was very trollish. If Cacturne is anything like his nephew, then I'd say it can be annoying.

View on Sand Veil / Snow Cloak: Ban them until further notice. I understand things like Sandslash / Beartic / Froslass will have issues, but who uses them anyway? I didn't know Beartic had Snow Cloak by the way. ;] I might just make a hail team and try to abuse it with him. xD

View on Chomp: Let him back in when Rough Skin is released. He was banned on the basis of things like Ice Shard missing due to Sand Veil, or the annoying SubChomp set that could easily thrash a whole team if it was lucky enough, so if he has Rough Skin, let him back in. That rhymed.

Vrai
August 13th, 2011, 07:37 PM
Maybe I'm getting lucky on the ladder but I haven't had too much trouble with Volcaronas. The ones I usually face aren't very potent at anything. But yea I think I'm just getting lucky.

As for Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, I really think the only bans should be SVChomp and SVGliscor. I don't really see anyone else who's that broken.

Volcarona is only really potent with the right player behind it and the right support, ie removing and keeping SR off the field. Once it gets 2 QDs it's basically GG because its defenses are solid enough that it's not getting OHKOd by any priority especially in sun (boo aqua jet) and it will outspeed and kill everything else. :(

View on Sand Veil / Snow Cloak: Ban them until further notice. I understand things like Sandslash / Beartic / Froslass will have issues, but who uses them anyway? I didn't know Beartic had Snow Cloak by the way. ;] I might just make a hail team and try to abuse it with him. xD

View on Chomp: Let him back in when Rough Skin is released. He was banned on the basis of things like Ice Shard missing due to Sand Veil, or the annoying SubChomp set that could easily thrash a whole team if it was lucky enough, so if he has Rough Skin, let him back in. That rhymed.

People use Froslass in UU but the other two don't have much usage really. Maybe NU spin for Sandslash? ..and Beartic still doesn't warrant any usage lol.

mystletainn
August 14th, 2011, 06:43 PM
The server is back up everyone. Come back. ;-;

Dark Azelf
August 15th, 2011, 06:56 PM
Well the metagame "seems" to have balanced out a little, at least its fun. Still gonna nom my original mons/abilities though lol.

Also i made another team that was more solid than my #1 team as it kept losing to Starmie, Volcabroken and Terrakion. I have replaced said team with an even MORE annoying and abusive strat. Put my ass at #15 for the time being lol.


EDIT:

Start of turn 1
The foe's Deoxys-S used Fire Punch!
It's super effective!
Scizor lost 288 HP! (83% of its health)
The foe's Deoxys-S is hurt by its Life Orb!
Scizor used U-Turn

Is why you dont run noob sets/gimmicks on the ladder and expect to win kids. :] lol

.Aero
August 15th, 2011, 10:46 PM
I feel this thread is a proper place to make my announcement to the CBC community: Let me just say, competitive battling has become dry, repetitive, and just generally annoying. I've lost interest severely this time, more so than I ever have before when taking a hiatus. I'm not sure what about me has caused this drastic change in my view of competitive battling, but I'm afraid I can't do much about it other than to accept it. So here, I'll make my announcement that I'm officially done with competitive battling on Pokemon.

Now this isn't a "goodbye PC" post, but merely a post stating that I no longer wish to battle. Any and all tournaments I'm currently involved with I will be forfeiting my matches. I just...don't feel like doing them anymore. CBC is dying guys. I can't stand to watch it wilt away, but it is and I feel like I've tried to make a difference, but it's not a lasting change, or I'm withheld by something else from doing what I feel could make CBC more successful.

Now I guess there's a little reasoning I should put behind the reason I'm quitting. The metagame is dull. If you don't run Special Defensive Jirachi or Special Defensive Scizor, you lose. It's as simple as that. If you don't run some form or priority, you lose to Excadrill (in sand at least) or Scarf Terrakion. I feel the gameplay has become so mechanized that I can't stand making new teams as they quite honestly end up being the same as a past team, save 2 or 3 pokemon, or exactly the same as another team I've seen someone in our community use. It's just not fun anymore. But hey, at least the BW metagame isn't as dull as the steel/dragon **** storm that was DPPt. With this loss of interest, I stopped rating teams...stopped caring. That's why I'm quitting, I just don't care anymore.

Now don't take that the wrong way. I certainly care about all of you at CBC, and certainly plan to visit the server quite often. Just don't ever ask me for a battle, because I will simply refuse. I've deleted all my teams, and no longer have even one of them saved. My adorable Amoonguss team, gone. My exceptional ADV team, gone. It's official. I'm being dramatic, I know, it's how I was taught in AP Lang & Comp and I don't know any better.

So I hope you all can understand and accept the fact that I won't be battling anymore. I don't want to lose friends over this, because you all are truly my friends. :] Also, on a side-note, if anyone wants to take over my planned clan, I can provide the OP that I had waiting via PM.

natedogg
August 16th, 2011, 07:41 AM
I feel this thread is a proper place to make my announcement to the CBC community: Let me just say, competitive battling has become dry, repetitive, and just generally annoying. I've lost interest severely this time, more so than I ever have before when taking a hiatus. I'm not sure what about me has caused this drastic change in my view of competitive battling, but I'm afraid I can't do much about it other than to accept it. So here, I'll make my announcement that I'm officially done with competitive battling on Pokemon.

Now this isn't a "goodbye PC" post, but merely a post stating that I no longer wish to battle. Any and all tournaments I'm currently involved with I will be forfeiting my matches. I just...don't feel like doing them anymore. CBC is dying guys. I can't stand to watch it wilt away, but it is and I feel like I've tried to make a difference, but it's not a lasting change, or I'm withheld by something else from doing what I feel could make CBC more successful.

Now I guess there's a little reasoning I should put behind the reason I'm quitting. The metagame is dull. If you don't run Special Defensive Jirachi or Special Defensive Scizor, you lose. It's as simple as that. If you don't run some form or priority, you lose to Excadrill (in sand at least) or Scarf Terrakion. I feel the gameplay has become so mechanized that I can't stand making new teams as they quite honestly end up being the same as a past team, save 2 or 3 pokemon, or exactly the same as another team I've seen someone in our community use. It's just not fun anymore. But hey, at least the BW metagame isn't as dull as the steel/dragon **** storm that was DPPt. With this loss of interest, I stopped rating teams...stopped caring. That's why I'm quitting, I just don't care anymore.

Now don't take that the wrong way. I certainly care about all of you at CBC, and certainly plan to visit the server quite often. Just don't ever ask me for a battle, because I will simply refuse. I've deleted all my teams, and no longer have even one of them saved. My adorable Amoonguss team, gone. My exceptional ADV team, gone. It's official. I'm being dramatic, I know, it's how I was taught in AP Lang & Comp and I don't know any better.

So I hope you all can understand and accept the fact that I won't be battling anymore. I don't want to lose friends over this, because you all are truly my friends. :] Also, on a side-note, if anyone wants to take over my planned clan, I can provide the OP that I had waiting via PM.

Cry moar!

Also is the PO sever down? I can't get on it :s

.Aero
August 16th, 2011, 10:43 AM
It's up. o.o

You're typing home.brokenrevolution.com into the advanced connection bar, right?

123wert50
August 16th, 2011, 10:47 AM
Does Darmanitan have potential to be a good sweeper?

Vrai
August 16th, 2011, 10:54 AM
Now I guess there's a little reasoning I should put behind the reason I'm quitting. The metagame is dull. If you don't run Special Defensive Jirachi or Special Defensive Scizor, you lose. It's as simple as that. If you don't run some form or priority, you lose to Excadrill (in sand at least) or Scarf Terrakion. I feel the gameplay has become so mechanized that I can't stand making new teams as they quite honestly end up being the same as a past team, save 2 or 3 pokemon, or exactly the same as another team I've seen someone in our community use. It's just not fun anymore. But hey, at least the BW metagame isn't as dull as the steel/dragon **** storm that was DPPt. With this loss of interest, I stopped rating teams...stopped caring. That's why I'm quitting, I just don't care anymore.

You don't have to run those things. :s I haven't run any of those in my past three teams and all three have gotten to top 100 on ladder, one going to top 50 or so and the other peaking at #13. I mean I'm not going to argue if you really feel like it's not for you anymore but you can still be innovative and creative and come up with new ways to beat things. You don't have to use the same-old same-old strats people have been using to deal with things. Be spontaneous and creative!

But like I said if you really don't care anymore I guess I can't do anything about that. :(


And I kinda also want to apologize for my lack of posting and rating and stuff too. Being at practice all the time is really killing my free time and half the time I just wanna sit here and do nothing when I should be doing something important. :(

Darmanitan is best used as a Scarfer on Drought teams.

Dark Azelf
August 17th, 2011, 12:11 PM
I feel this thread is a proper place to make my announcement to the CBC community: Let me just say, competitive battling has become dry, repetitive, and just generally annoying. I've lost interest severely this time, more so than I ever have before when taking a hiatus. I'm not sure what about me has caused this drastic change in my view of competitive battling, but I'm afraid I can't do much about it other than to accept it. So here, I'll make my announcement that I'm officially done with competitive battling on Pokemon.

Now this isn't a "goodbye PC" post, but merely a post stating that I no longer wish to battle. Any and all tournaments I'm currently involved with I will be forfeiting my matches. I just...don't feel like doing them anymore. CBC is dying guys. I can't stand to watch it wilt away, but it is and I feel like I've tried to make a difference, but it's not a lasting change, or I'm withheld by something else from doing what I feel could make CBC more successful.

Now I guess there's a little reasoning I should put behind the reason I'm quitting. The metagame is dull. If you don't run Special Defensive Jirachi or Special Defensive Scizor, you lose. It's as simple as that. If you don't run some form or priority, you lose to Excadrill (in sand at least) or Scarf Terrakion. I feel the gameplay has become so mechanized that I can't stand making new teams as they quite honestly end up being the same as a past team, save 2 or 3 pokemon, or exactly the same as another team I've seen someone in our community use. It's just not fun anymore. But hey, at least the BW metagame isn't as dull as the steel/dragon **** storm that was DPPt. With this loss of interest, I stopped rating teams...stopped caring. That's why I'm quitting, I just don't care anymore.

Now don't take that the wrong way. I certainly care about all of you at CBC, and certainly plan to visit the server quite often. Just don't ever ask me for a battle, because I will simply refuse. I've deleted all my teams, and no longer have even one of them saved. My adorable Amoonguss team, gone. My exceptional ADV team, gone. It's official. I'm being dramatic, I know, it's how I was taught in AP Lang & Comp and I don't know any better.

So I hope you all can understand and accept the fact that I won't be battling anymore. I don't want to lose friends over this, because you all are truly my friends. :] Also, on a side-note, if anyone wants to take over my planned clan, I can provide the OP that I had waiting via PM.

Just try another metagame dude. I agree OU sucks at the moment and seeing the same Pokes every battle is extremely easy to take advantage. I designed my team to abuse this fact and this past week ive been in the top 5 and 10 consistently. Im sure going to be nominating all of the stuff that force you to use Sp.Def Scizor (horrible set) and Jirachi (im looking at you Reunibroken and Latiuber) lol. Reuniclus is more broken than Latios imo though. At least you can check Latios. If Reuniclus uses Trick Room it decimates ~90% of its so called checks. Plus ive been seeing people use HP Fire over Shadow Ball for said "sp.def steel" checks. Psychics are easy to get rid of anyway because of ScarfTar/CB Tar's rise in usage so you dont even lose anything from losing S-Ball lol. :/

May i suggest Ubers ? Its incredibly balanced compared to any other tier. I haven't battled ubers since gen 4, but ive watched a few gen 5 battles and it looks incredibly fun. Any team play style seems to work, ive seen stall, weather, HO and everything inbetween. Even guys like Tentacruel and Cloyster can shine there. Also if you have a weakness to something dumb ? Put in an Arceus forme to counter utility things and lol. :]

NU and LU (on PO) are really fun too.

wolf
August 17th, 2011, 01:01 PM
I doubt the metagame will ever be anymore diverse than now. There will be always be those Pokémon you see on every team, in my opinion anyway. I would say it's pretty diverse if I hear popular teams using Pokémon like Cacturne, Gastrodon, and Roserade. You would never see that type of creativity during the last generation, only a new "twist" on a already popular Pokémon. Battling is more interesting when you think out-of-the-box with your teams, even if it won't be as successful as using the top 25 Pokémon.

Of course you will lose interest eventually though, breaks always help.

Skuntank
August 17th, 2011, 08:56 PM
is there somewhere i can refer to for the current gen V tiers?

Exile
August 17th, 2011, 09:12 PM
is there somewhere i can refer to for the current gen V tiers?

The tiers right now are based on usage statistics and ban lists. The June 2011 Usage stats can be found here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451190), the OU Banlist can be found here (http://www.smogon.com/forums/announcement.php?f=144&a=187).

Dark Azelf
August 19th, 2011, 11:30 AM
Just curious and all, but which of you would play "wifi" with gen 3 (no typo) online i said for arguments sake "knew" how to with a VBA via servers ? ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO9VR76yXUQ&feature=relmfu

example of what i mean. -sparkle shimmer- lol

Exile
August 19th, 2011, 08:11 PM
Just curious and all, but which of you would play "wifi" with gen 3 (no typo) online i said for arguments sake "knew" how to with a VBA via servers ? ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO9VR76yXUQ&feature=relmfu

example of what i mean. -sparkle shimmer- lol

That's pretty cool, Elf. Although I haven't touched ADV Gen and I still prefer PO to Wifi, so I'm not sure if I'd be interested. Anyhow, I figured I'd share this (http://pokemon.aesoft.org/?allreplays), it's a Pokemon Online battle recorder, and while it's still in development, it's p neat.

Vrai
August 26th, 2011, 10:48 AM
this thread needs a bump so it will come in the form of sunshine

have any of you really used drought lately? like, everyone's OH NINETALES SUX and yeah i have to say i agreed to that before too but drought is really damn impressive when you can win the weather war. there are tons of innovative ways to abuse it (ie CB ape, scarf darmanitan, volcarona, rotom-h, specs heatran...) and all of those mons are also basically win conditions if you can keep rocks off the field. seriously, tell me, what's going to take a cb ape flare blitz/cc? tentacruel, maybe? even the most physically defensive build isn't going to take more than two, three of them, max. and tentacruel/jellicent are 100% set-up bait for chestorest volcarona. other weather? ape/darmanitan scare out ttar and u-turn to safety (btw it does a chunk to offensive ttar and defensive are just spinnerbait anyway) and you can use your chlorophyll abuser of choice/rotom-h/whatever to take out toed. dugtrio is seeing a lot of usage on sun teams to trap drizzle/ss.

these fire attacks are just so insanely powerful in sun that honestly once you establish control over the weather you're nearly guaranteed to win. specs overheat and cb flare blitz are moves that nothing but heatran/dedicated wall are going to take very well at all. sun sounds incredibly anti-metagame and really just mashes every playstyle up against the wall. i haven't been able to play around with it really but i want you guys to try it and see what you think.

flamehaze94
August 26th, 2011, 03:16 PM
Sometimes you do't even need a Spinner because the offensive presence is just massive. You'll make the opponent think "Will I set up Rocks, or be forced to take boosted Flare Blitz/Fire Blast next turn?" Every Pokemon that abuses Sun is so freakin' strong that matches can often last under 20 turns if played correctly. +2 Infernape Fire Blast has a chance to OHKO Salamence and I think that speaks loads about the power of Drought abusers.

Since everybody and their mothers are sunning Shed Shell on Skarmory and stuff, Sun + Dragon should be pretty damn effective this metagame I think. When 5/6 of the team can just force Skarmory everytime, it becomes a liability to actually switch it into Haxorus or something, because a well timed double switch means somethings taking a boosted fire move and nobody likes that.

I still think Sand is the best weather, but Sun is UBER STRONG (ask Groudon :D)

Dark Azelf
August 26th, 2011, 05:28 PM
Sash Dugtrio with Reversal is so annoying on drought teams with some way to stop rocks, it can switch directly into Tyranitar and KO it 100% of the time. Seems like Ooka was onto something after all haha. =P

Volcarona is seriously uber though lol and is IMO the most broken part of sun.

seriously, tell me, what's going to take a cb ape flare blitz/cc? tentacruel, maybe?

The only thing which can switch into ape in sun is uhhhh, flash fire chandelure probably lol. Tentacruel is pretty much OHKO'd and 2hko'd (iirc) by Iron Fist CC unless it uses the superior defensive spread with Bold, even then it cant take Flare Blitz's in the sun at all.

defensive are just spinnerbait anyway

Just a small nitpick, defensive Tar hits all the common spinners super effectively. ;x

Anyway, from using Sun, i REALLY like Victini also and im surprised it hasn't been mentioned. Its an excellent way to remove and lure in Tyranitar. I mean, with SR up CB V-Create frikkin 2hko's Tyranitar and it outspeeds non max speed ones after the speed drop. This is without sun. ._. U-Turn is also awesome as heck to get momentum and free switch ins for things like Dugtrio/Wobb and remove foe weather users like Politoed who is also prone to switching into Victini.

Regardless, sun teams have trouble switching in as most of the standard members are very frail so if you do switch in on the weakest members (see: Ninetales) you are probably going to put an ass load of offensive pressure on them. I do this with my team, double switches also create momentum for you and they will most likely lose a pokemon. Pinpointing Ninetales is also a great way to win vs drought (Tar, Pursuit, gtfo Ninetales). I also find priority to be amazing against everything bar Volcarona, a combo of Mamoswine and Scizor really create problems for chlorophyll abusers. I also doubt anything on sun can really take a hit from things like Heatran and they are most likely going to have to sac something. As said though, Dugtrio REALLY is an ass in that regard lol. Finally, faster mons/scarfers like Terrakion and Landorus <--sun doesn't want anything to do with these when they get in revenge kills. That and nothing can really beat dragons @ set up move lol.

Exile
August 27th, 2011, 04:31 AM
Yeah, I've fought plenty a sun team and Ape is just annoying. The good thing is that they spam U-Turn at first if they see a Latias [one of the best antisun Pokemon], so you if you can get up rocks, Ape can only switch in and out so many times and eventually realizes it has to use a move other than U-Turn, which is when you can lure it into using Close Combat and then sending in Gliscor to get things done. Volcarona really is annoying if played right, same goes for Sawsbuck, which can is only walled by things like Forretress and Skarmory at +2, the priority weak is a bit of a turn off, however.

Vrai
August 28th, 2011, 03:05 AM
Sometimes you do't even need a Spinner because the offensive presence is just massive. You'll make the opponent think "Will I set up Rocks, or be forced to take boosted Flare Blitz/Fire Blast next turn?" Every Pokemon that abuses Sun is so freakin' strong that matches can often last under 20 turns if played correctly. +2 Infernape Fire Blast has a chance to OHKO Salamence and I think that speaks loads about the power of Drought abusers.

Since everybody and their mothers are sunning Shed Shell on Skarmory and stuff, Sun + Dragon should be pretty damn effective this metagame I think. When 5/6 of the team can just force Skarmory everytime, it becomes a liability to actually switch it into Haxorus or something, because a well timed double switch means somethings taking a boosted fire move and nobody likes that.

I still think Sand is the best weather, but Sun is UBER STRONG (ask Groudon :D)

Definitely. User Kinglypuff has gotten reqs with a no-spin support Volcarona w/ Morning Sun. It's crazy, being successful even without spinning.

Yeah, I've fought plenty a sun team and Ape is just annoying. The good thing is that they spam U-Turn at first if they see a Latias [one of the best antisun Pokemon], so you if you can get up rocks, Ape can only switch in and out so many times and eventually realizes it has to use a move other than U-Turn, which is when you can lure it into using Close Combat and then sending in Gliscor to get things done. Volcarona really is annoying if played right, same goes for Sawsbuck, which can is only walled by things like Forretress and Skarmory at +2, the priority weak is a bit of a turn off, however.

Latias is definitely frustrating, yup. Particularly Sub+CM, setting up on most of the common Sun mons like Ninetales and Forry and Hitmontop etc. And tbh it really isn't that simple; when they can throw around U-turn like that, it honestly means in my opinion that they have the advantage. Gliscor is set-up bait for a properly EV'd Volcarona to an extent, as well as like Venusaur and quite a few other sun mons. I mean, +1 Fire Blast is something Gliscor won't take well (actually, just sun-boosted Fire Blast in general lol), whereas Gliscor can only um try to SD on it to get killed the next turn or to EQ it which doesn't do much with limited attack investment or Toxic it which is removed via chestorest. I mean those offensive Gliscors beat it with Acrobatics (which is why subvolca might be good i guess?) but still... I'd imagine that 4-attacks Sawsbuck is better than SD or 3 attacks + Aromatherapy. Sounds like an idea, anyway.

stuff
Yeah. Sun definitely isn't perfect but it's certainly abusable (and the weaknesses are actually plausible to cover too lol). Sash Duggy is neat and tons of people are using it, to my frustration. :|

Skuntank
September 3rd, 2011, 11:01 AM
I wasnt able to find answer from the chat on PO so ill ask here, can you set your tier to little cup? Because i have a little cup team made but it still says that i am using wifi NU. any help?

Perrie ✿
September 3rd, 2011, 11:05 AM
I wasnt able to find answer from the chat on PO so ill ask here, can you set your tier to little cup? Because i have a little cup team made but it still says that i am using wifi NU. any help?

Yes you can. There must be a Pokemon in your team that is in the NU tier. Maybe one of the Pokemon you have is a single staged Pokemon.

Skuntank
September 3rd, 2011, 11:12 AM
i am using, meowth, miefoo, charmander, munna, ferroseed, and taillow.
Does the amount of evs i use affect if it stays in the LC tier?

Perrie ✿
September 3rd, 2011, 11:44 AM
i am using, meowth, miefoo, charmander, munna, ferroseed, and taillow.
Does the amount of evs i use affect if it stays in the LC tier?

Hmm, you shouldn't be having a problem then. \; Try manually switching by going to Tiers > 5th Gen > LC Wifi it should put you in that tier.

Ev's have nothing to do with it. :)

Exile
September 3rd, 2011, 11:56 AM
i am using, meowth, miefoo, charmander, munna, ferroseed, and taillow.
Does the amount of evs i use affect if it stays in the LC tier?

No they don't, but they do effect stats differently, you can read a guide on Little Cup here (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=252904), which explains how EVs work. You should also make sure that all of your Pokemon are at Level 5 as the default for Pokemon Online is Lv. 100 and that none of them are holding Berry Juice, which is banned in Standard LC.

.Aero
September 3rd, 2011, 11:58 AM
Did you set your pokemon levels to 5? I assume that's your problem. If they're 100, it'll throw you into NU. It's in the advance tab where you can select the abilities and such, so just drop the level to 5.

Skuntank
September 3rd, 2011, 12:35 PM
yeah all my pokemon are at level 5. I found that it only shows my team as standard NU when im in the actual PO chatroom server thing. When i go to smogon and others, my team is always put into LC

Vrai
September 4th, 2011, 03:39 AM
yeah all my pokemon are at level 5. I found that it only shows my team as standard NU when im in the actual PO chatroom server thing. When i go to smogon and others, my team is always put into LC

When it doesn't auto-switch, you simply have to go in and manually switch it. It shouldn't be much of a hassle.

Cycle
September 6th, 2011, 09:17 AM
I haven't been coming around here recently, but I can tell that the community is expanding.

Anyways, school starts for me tomorrow so I won't be active much but I'll drop by from time to time to post and maybe I'll come back next summer.

Forever
September 14th, 2011, 05:08 PM
Sooo Karpman said I should ask here ;x

Since I was enjoying writing the comments on that battle log I was thinking how about an event where you get some good and some not so good battlers together to battle in like "unusual" teams and post the logs of the battles without comments or anything, and get members to write commentaries on the battles and see who can make the most interesting battle log of the battles w/ emblem rewards or something?

What are you guys thoughts on it?

gee2k8
September 15th, 2011, 01:22 AM
This thought has plagued my mind alot over the last few generations of pokemon and i feel i need some views of others to ease my mind. The topic at matter is naturally competitive battling(this forum duuuu!) and how i feel things like shoddy and pokesav maybe ruined the competitive field for wifi users and people who like to grind out items, natures and ivs. To name a few: 'battle frontier items(takes alot of time) and pickup items that require lvl 81+ meowth etc'(i've raised 3 of these this gen to find 2 leftovers).
I personally have used shoddy a little bit in the past and what i found is that its not that enjoyable compared to breeding your own pokemon and using them in battle. When breeding/catching your own it feels like the hard work of gaining decent ivs and breeding for the right nature actually brings alot more satisfaction to a victory and makes you work harder in the future when a defeat occurs. What i am frustrated with is that i notice more and more that in wifi battles people are using a full team of shinies with what i can only guess are max iv'd pokemon. Obviously getting both in the game is a very possible task, but the amount of time and effort required just shows me they have been pokesav'd. On this note i was just wondering if anyone knew of a community that played the games for what they actually we're and had battles to a legit standard.

Zeffy
September 16th, 2011, 09:23 PM
This thought has plagued my mind alot over the last few generations of pokemon and i feel i need some views of others to ease my mind. The topic at matter is naturally competitive battling(this forum duuuu!) and how i feel things like shoddy and pokesav maybe ruined the competitive field for wifi users and people who like to grind out items, natures and ivs. To name a few: 'battle frontier items(takes alot of time) and pickup items that require lvl 81+ meowth etc'(i've raised 3 of these this gen to find 2 leftovers).
I personally have used shoddy a little bit in the past and what i found is that its not that enjoyable compared to breeding your own pokemon and using them in battle. When breeding/catching your own it feels like the hard work of gaining decent ivs and breeding for the right nature actually brings alot more satisfaction to a victory and makes you work harder in the future when a defeat occurs. What i am frustrated with is that i notice more and more that in wifi battles people are using a full team of shinies with what i can only guess are max iv'd pokemon. Obviously getting both in the game is a very possible task, but the amount of time and effort required just shows me they have been pokesav'd. On this note i was just wondering if anyone knew of a community that played the games for what they actually we're and had battles to a legit standard.
Dude, do you even know what simulation means? And some people can't afford the games you know, and their only resort is via a battle simulator like [Pokemon Online.

If you didn't notice, we also have a Wi-Fi battling community here, where most people do everything legit. And unlike you, not everyone has the time to breed and EV their Pokemon so they usually resort to trading or by the use of editing softwares, which as long as everything looks legit (meaning the Pokemon has the right amount EVs, knows move that the Pokemon naturally knows et cetera) is kind of legit in its own sense.

Sooo Karpman said I should ask here ;x

Since I was enjoying writing the comments on that battle log I was thinking how about an event where you get some good and some not so good battlers together to battle in like "unusual" teams and post the logs, and get members to write comments to those logs and see who can make the most interesting battle log of the battles w/ emblem rewards or something?

What are you guys thoughts on it?
First, this would be a great event! Second, I didn't know what it really meant until you explained it to me in the irc. ;;

But yeah, as long is the unusual team isn't as unusual like, say, 6 Magikarp vs 6 Feebas, then yeah I'd be all up for it.

.Aero
September 16th, 2011, 09:37 PM
This thought has plagued my mind alot over the last few generations of pokemon and i feel i need some views of others to ease my mind. The topic at matter is naturally competitive battling(this forum duuuu!) and how i feel things like shoddy and pokesav maybe ruined the competitive field for wifi users and people who like to grind out items, natures and ivs. To name a few: 'battle frontier items(takes alot of time) and pickup items that require lvl 81+ meowth etc'(i've raised 3 of these this gen to find 2 leftovers).
I personally have used shoddy a little bit in the past and what i found is that its not that enjoyable compared to breeding your own pokemon and using them in battle. When breeding/catching your own it feels like the hard work of gaining decent ivs and breeding for the right nature actually brings alot more satisfaction to a victory and makes you work harder in the future when a defeat occurs. What i am frustrated with is that i notice more and more that in wifi battles people are using a full team of shinies with what i can only guess are max iv'd pokemon. Obviously getting both in the game is a very possible task, but the amount of time and effort required just shows me they have been pokesav'd. On this note i was just wondering if anyone knew of a community that played the games for what they actually we're and had battles to a legit standard.

I honestly feel that Pokesav is dropping off the scene. RNG, which is a perfectly legal method of obtaining pokemon, offers a very easy way of getting shiny pokemon with perfect IVs. All it takes is a small program on the computer that can tell you at what times these pokemon will appear, and then some syncing with your DS clock on your part. It's not hard at all, and the majority of the pokemon wifi community views it as acceptable. It still takes work, as you'll have to EV the pokemon yourself and get correct moves and such, but it takes out that whole chance thing and puts more emphasis on training.

As for simulators, they aren't connected to Wifi in any way, aside from tier selection (which is a good thing in all honesty). What happens in Pokemon Online's (and Shoddy's in the past) metagame does not affect that of Wifi's. It's just natural for Wifi's metagame to evolve at a slower rate as well due to the fact that people don't want to constantly want to train new pokemon just to fit the metagame.

Regardless of your position on simulators, there is are quite a few positive aspects of them. One, as stated by Zeffy, is that they are free and offer ways for those who can't afford the games / DSs to play pokemon with other people easily. Another thing they do is save time. Say what you will, but if you think saving time is a bad thing, I can't imagine the amount of patience you have.

Takes this scenario for instance: I once made a team in Wifi, in which I decided to use Mismagius instead of Gengar on my team because she had Pain Split and I felt that was a selling point on her. Don't get me wrong, Mismagius is a good pokemon, but for the job I wanted her to do, Gengar was much more suitable. After training Mismagius, I realized she wasn't working with the team. I just basically wasted my time breeding, EV training, and getting the right moveset / item for her only to find out that she wasn't good enough for my team. Most teams however will require more tweaking than just one pokemon to be exceptional. Just imagine having to train over a dozen pokemon for just one team because you wanted to experiment.

Pokemon Online lets you do just that in mere minutes: experiment. It's a time saver and people who play Pokemon Online don't necessarily ditch Wifi. They like to test teams on the simulator, figure out what works, and perfect their team before spending time on it for Wifi. In which case, the majority of this community uses RNG for IVs, Nature, and Shininess, and then EV train and get moveset in a completely legitimate way. I can't imagine Pokesav is gone entirely, because I know it's not, but it's drastically lost popularity with how easy RNG is and the fact that it's accepted by the majority of the community as legal.

tl;dr - RNG is more popular than Pokesav now; Simulators are awesome because they can save time for experimenting with teams.

Vrai
September 17th, 2011, 03:17 AM
Sooo Karpman said I should ask here ;x

Since I was enjoying writing the comments on that battle log I was thinking how about an event where you get some good and some not so good battlers together to battle in like "unusual" teams and post the logs of the battles without comments or anything, and get members to write commentaries on the battles and see who can make the most interesting battle log of the battles w/ emblem rewards or something?

What are you guys thoughts on it?

...I think it's an interesting idea but it's really not that easy to come up with a log if you weren't playing in it. How else can you expect to figure out what was going through the player's head?

This thought has plagued my mind alot over the last few generations of pokemon and i feel i need some views of others to ease my mind. The topic at matter is naturally competitive battling(this forum duuuu!) and how i feel things like shoddy and pokesav maybe ruined the competitive field for wifi users and people who like to grind out items, natures and ivs. To name a few: 'battle frontier items(takes alot of time) and pickup items that require lvl 81+ meowth etc'(i've raised 3 of these this gen to find 2 leftovers).
I personally have used shoddy a little bit in the past and what i found is that its not that enjoyable compared to breeding your own pokemon and using them in battle. When breeding/catching your own it feels like the hard work of gaining decent ivs and breeding for the right nature actually brings alot more satisfaction to a victory and makes you work harder in the future when a defeat occurs. What i am frustrated with is that i notice more and more that in wifi battles people are using a full team of shinies with what i can only guess are max iv'd pokemon. Obviously getting both in the game is a very possible task, but the amount of time and effort required just shows me they have been pokesav'd. On this note i was just wondering if anyone knew of a community that played the games for what they actually we're and had battles to a legit standard.

What Aero said about RNG holds true for most things. I don't play Wi-Fi, but iirc Nintendo doesn't even allow PokeSav'd 'mons on Wi-Fi battles anymore. All the Pokemon you see while playing in B/W are legit, and you don't have to worry about that.

And remember that not everyone is pleased with training their own Pokemon and you don't have to get upset with people about this. There will always be those people who prefer training up their own, but as options expand into things like RNG and battling online using a simulator (which is something I do all the time), people will take those other options for ease of effort or whatever. This isn't the death of Wi-Fi or anything like that and if you find playing your game preferable to playing on PO (yeah it's a different program now; you might like it more than shoddy) then that's awesome! Keep playing your game. But other people like to play on simulators and that's that.

Actionhero112
September 19th, 2011, 08:00 PM
I thought that Nintendo does allow you to use Sav/Gen'd mons over wifi, but just doesn't allow you to post the log online. If you meant random match up, I guess thats true. But RM is just "Ohai der, I use bulky pokemon with OHKO moves and spam them until they work." And I realize there are ways to counter that, its just.. I'm so acclimated to the rules and regulations of standard OU and UU that I can't battle without them. That sounds pathetic I know. =(

Cycle
September 20th, 2011, 12:52 PM
Why don't more people play LC :[

Exile
September 20th, 2011, 01:49 PM
I was considering trying LC, I'd probably be more motivated if someone hosted a Little Cup Event/Tour here.

Vrai
September 20th, 2011, 02:59 PM
It's hard to get other people into new metagames here. :(

Vrai
September 29th, 2011, 10:49 AM
Double posting for coolness and to kick life back into this dead thread. Magic Guard Alakazam and Prankster Sableye were just released. Thoughts on their impact?

.Aero
September 29th, 2011, 10:56 AM
They'll be gimmicks to say the least. At least now Alakazam can use the focus sash better. I mean, I'm sure they'll do fine in lower tier gameplay, but I can't see them being OU mons. Especially Sableye with it's bad stats (just because it has prankster does make it awesome, I do like his design though, and will always love him as a Pokemon).

Vrai
September 29th, 2011, 11:15 AM
Sableye manhandles stall that doesn't have Heatran, really. I don't think either are gimmicks at all. Alakazam outspeeds the vast majority of the tier and has a huge base SpA with solid coverage with Psychic/shock and Shadow Ball/Focus Blast. I don't think they'll be gimmicks at all, and both will almost assuredly be OU (low OU, perhaps, but OU nonetheless). In DW OU Alakazam is used more than Latios and Sableye is mid-tier OU.

Exile
September 29th, 2011, 11:39 AM
I don't see Alakazam being that good, Magic Guard is cute and all, but it seems like a Gengar/Reuniclus hybrid that isn't as effective as either one. Sableye will definitely be interesting, though, I think I'll try and use it.

Cycle
September 29th, 2011, 11:51 AM
I'd also like to say that Tail glow Volbeat with prankster is released.

irkanator
September 29th, 2011, 12:14 PM
I'm just posting to say that Sableye is outclassed by Taunt + WoW Mew. Prankster sounds cool and everything, but it doesn't make up for Sableye's awful defenses.

flight
September 29th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Well, in my honest opinion, I'm going to go with the majority that think that Sableye won't really survive in OU. Sure, it's interesting, but mons like deoxys-s will be in everyway(and Erufuun, to say the least) superior to Sableye. It's kind of a risk to even have it in the first place. At least Erufuun has a chance with Sub Cotton guard, but what really can Sableye do? Just out of curiosity, really. .__.;

And Alakazam has never really struck me as anything special. I will say however, that if used properly, it can turn into a real threat, especially since Magic Guard(afaik) prevents things like Toxic and WoW and stuff like that, right?

Though, to be really fair, I'd like to see Clefable be a better Alakazam. It already has Magic Guard. At least make it better in some way, shape or form. ><; It already has the defenses, now I'm just concerned about the offenses. If only it wasn't slow. :(

Cycle
September 29th, 2011, 01:39 PM
I'm kind of dissapointed that everyone's shoving Sableye away and saying it "sucks" and is "outclassed".

Sableye is a lot worse on paper than it actually is in competitive.

Priority will-o-wisp is great, it allows you to cripple threats that you wouldnt be able to with Mew (SEE: +2 Excadrill, +2 Landorus, +2 Terrakion). Recover with priority is great, it allows you to outstall many threats. Foul Play is another neat move which lets you actually hurt something.

Myself, I'd rather use Mew than Sableye, but that doesn't mean that Sableye isn't viable in OU; it'll probably end up in UU but its not something to just brush aside.

Oh, and Erufuun with sub sucks, you're like instantly forced out by everything; use U-turn instead.


Zam is pretty cool, but I'd rather use OTR Reuniclus, though Zam shouldn't be underestimated.

Vrai
September 30th, 2011, 02:11 AM
I don't see Alakazam being that good, Magic Guard is cute and all, but it seems like a Gengar/Reuniclus hybrid that isn't as effective as either one. Sableye will definitely be interesting, though, I think I'll try and use it.

I think it'll be just fine. Considering it's faster and stronger than Gengar with Magic Guard... seems like it's only got the positive parts of each, lol.

I'd also like to say that Tail glow Volbeat with prankster is released.

Oh yeah, forgot. That'll be interesting for hardcore BP teams but beyond that I don't think it'll be used very much at all (at least, with any effectiveness).

I'm just posting to say that Sableye is outclassed by Taunt + WoW Mew. Prankster sounds cool and everything, but it doesn't make up for Sableye's awful defenses.

It's not. Cycle covered it though.

Well, in my honest opinion, I'm going to go with the majority that think that Sableye won't really survive in OU. Sure, it's interesting, but mons like deoxys-s will be in everyway(and Erufuun, to say the least) superior to Sableye. It's kind of a risk to even have it in the first place. At least Erufuun has a chance with Sub Cotton guard, but what really can Sableye do? Just out of curiosity, really. .__.;

And Alakazam has never really struck me as anything special. I will say however, that if used properly, it can turn into a real threat, especially since Magic Guard(afaik) prevents things like Toxic and WoW and stuff like that, right?

Though, to be really fair, I'd like to see Clefable be a better Alakazam. It already has Magic Guard. At least make it better in some way, shape or form. ><; It already has the defenses, now I'm just concerned about the offenses. If only it wasn't slow. :(
Erufuun is radically different from Sableye and imo considerably worse. Deoxys-S is not superior at all lol, it's entirely different. Why is it a risk to have it? It can Taunt/W-o-W/Recover with priority. I've seen sets where you spam Swagger and W-o-W and use Foul Play to attack them with their own Attack stat (boosted by Swagger but cut by W-o-W). You can be imaginative. TBH I'd like to use the last moveslot for Knock Off, knocking off the items of whatever tries to switch in and beat it.

Clefable =/= Alakazam in any way, lool. :(

Forever
September 30th, 2011, 03:00 AM
imma be a fool and say I didn't realise Alakazam wasn't released and used it before lool.

But! With LO as well as really high spA and good speed & nature + that works in spA's favour (or just leaving it at LO & nature working in the favour of speed) it works well imo w/ recover etc :x

Cycle
September 30th, 2011, 11:34 AM
Hey guys, I was laddering on smogon LC ladder and I finally hit 1.
(15:33:28) *** Your rank in Standard LC is 1/1493 [1258 points / 59 battles]!

Exile
September 30th, 2011, 11:38 AM
Hey guys, I was laddering on smogon LC ladder and I finally hit 1.
(15:33:28) *** Your rank in Standard LC is 1/1493 [1258 points / 59 battles]!

Nice job, son. I signed up for LC Tutoring at Smogon, so hopefully I'll be able to get good at LC and reach your level.

Cycle
September 30th, 2011, 11:53 AM
Nice job, son. I signed up for LC Tutoring at Smogon, so hopefully I'll be able to get good at LC and reach your level.

Haha, sounds good.

The LC ladder isn't that hard to climb, it takes about 3 battles to reach the first page (lol), but then the battles get harder and you'll probably hover around the same spot for a few days. I started playing LC a few weeks back with this team (which is also my first) and stayed around #8-#10 for a week or so lol.

flight
September 30th, 2011, 11:57 AM
Clefable =/= Alakazam in any way, lool. :(

To me, it's just like Alakazam except better defenses, and worse spa atk and speed.

But that's just me.

Exile
September 30th, 2011, 12:04 PM
To me, it's just like Alakazam except better defenses, and worse spa atk and speed.

But that's just me.

That's like saying Jirachi is like Blissey, since they share an ability and are bulky in the areas of Special Defense and HP, although Jirachi is much more versatile and can bring a much better offensive presence to the table.

Dark Azelf
October 1st, 2011, 05:31 PM
MH Sableye is annoying as hell to play when you're using stall. You essentially need Heatran or Politoed to beat it lol. :/ I guess Poison heal Gliscor would work too as it cant be burned but you can only EQ it ?

LO Sub Zam and Sash MG zam are both awesome and arent scarftar bait because its faster lol :]

Exile
October 6th, 2011, 05:55 PM
Zam is great, and the LO+3 Attacks is probably my favorite set, since Calm Mind is essentially an inferior Reuniclus.

Anyhow:

FML (http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Taylor-Martinez-vs-StoneCold22--2011-10-06)

So yeah, going off of the above replay, what was the worst hax you've ever had. By worst, it can be whatever just made you rage, whether it be continuous and statistically ridiculous luck, or luck causing you to lose an important match or good game.

Cycle
October 6th, 2011, 06:24 PM
Zam is great, and the LO+3 Attacks is probably my favorite set, since Calm Mind is essentially an inferior Reuniclus.

Anyhow:

FML (http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Taylor-Martinez-vs-StoneCold22--2011-10-06)

So yeah, going off of the above replay, what was the worst hax you've ever had. By worst, it can be whatever just made you rage, whether it be continuous and statistically ridiculous luck, or luck causing you to lose an important match or good game.

I don't have the replay, but I was playing against a Chandelure, I sent in my Tyranitar, overheat crits, and I think whatever it won't penetrate through me even with a crit, and the next turn overheat critted again.

Tyranitar is not a Chandelure counter.

PlatinumDude
October 6th, 2011, 07:48 PM
Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but the tier lists have been updated: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3886607&postcount=3

Some Pokemon rose a tier or two, while others dropped down. For instance, Gastrodon was in RU, but it jumped up to OU (I was surprised by this, and after a bit of research, it was Storm Drain that made Gastrodon viable enough for OU). Tier drops include: Darmanitan, Machamp, Whimsicott, Porygon2, Hippowdon, Tornadus and Chandelure from OU to UU.

I apologize if I got this information mixed up; I just thought it would be worth sharing.

Anti
October 7th, 2011, 06:33 AM
Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but the tier lists have been updated: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3886607&postcount=3

Some Pokemon rose a tier or two, while others dropped down. For instance, Gastrodon was in RU, but it jumped up to OU (I was surprised by this, and after a bit of research, it was Storm Drain that made Gastrodon viable enough for OU). Tier drops include: Darmanitan, Machamp, Whimsicott, Porygon2, Hippowdon, Tornadus and Chandelure from OU to UU.

I apologize if I got this information mixed up; I just thought it would be worth sharing.

This would definitely be the place.

I haven't been around the metagame at all really, but even when I was playing I heard a lot of Whimsicott bashing, so its fall is not surprising. Same with Machamp because of Conkeldurr's presence, and Chandy was in the same boat as Whimsicott (and I agreed with the hate - it was really easy to take advantage of). The real implications are for the UU game though, which I've been wanting to get into...and I might now that Machamp is in! <3

I'm still waiting for the suspect test results to come in for OU. While I take personal satisfaction in the growing support for Excadrill getting the boot since I had to hear about how indefensible the position was during the first several suspect tests, I don't actually think he's broken! It will be interesting to see the results though.

Forever
October 7th, 2011, 08:10 AM
So yeah, going off of the above replay, what was the worst hax you've ever had. By worst, it can be whatever just made you rage, whether it be continuous and statistically ridiculous luck, or luck causing you to lose an important match or good game.

Uhhh Eeelektross used to get OHKO'd with crits like all the time, and it invested in one of the defences (of which it usually got hit by) lol.

Not sure if this is the right place to put this, but the tier lists have been updated: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3886607&postcount=3

Some Pokemon rose a tier or two, while others dropped down. For instance, Gastrodon was in RU, but it jumped up to OU (I was surprised by this, and after a bit of research, it was Storm Drain that made Gastrodon viable enough for OU). Tier drops include: Darmanitan, Machamp, Whimsicott, Porygon2, Hippowdon, Tornadus and Chandelure from OU to UU.

I apologize if I got this information mixed up; I just thought it would be worth sharing.

Oh how Yoshikko is going to be happy with this lool.

I'm still waiting for the suspect test results to come in for OU. While I take personal satisfaction in the growing support for Excadrill getting the boot since I had to hear about how indefensible the position was during the first several suspect tests, I don't actually think he's broken! It will be interesting to see the results though.

I'm looking forward to the results too, for no particular reason... just interested to see ;x

Vrai
October 7th, 2011, 10:00 AM
As far as the suspect testing goes, I'd put money on nothing being banned and Excadrill getting a majority (meaning it's auto-suspect next round). I just have a strong feeling that most people really didn't have heavy support for a specific nomination save perhaps Exca but I don't think it's going to be banned, I guess.

I like the UU dropdowns. Darmanitan is going to be insane strong (especially when Chandelure goes BL). Nothing in UU can really do anything about Chandelure save the newly dropped down Porygon2 with Trace and I think P2 usage will slowly increase when people realize that. Machamp is cool because it beats Froslass and Veil abuse as well as checks hail teams in general. Really neat stuff, tbh. UU looks fun to play.

Exile
October 7th, 2011, 06:33 PM
So PO has competition! (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3894767)

So, what do you guys think of this new sim, Pokemon Showdown? Will you use it over PO, or at the very least, will you try it out? Do you think it will ever see the light of day?

Discuss, etc.

Forever
October 7th, 2011, 06:41 PM
So PO has competition! (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3894767)

So, what do you guys think of this new sim, Pokemon Showdown? Will you use it over PO, or at the very least, will you try it out? Do you think it will ever see the light of day?

Discuss, etc.

It might be picky but I don't really like the design of it (okay just the colours, I like PO's! :x) However I'm pretty sure it'll eventually be the one that is used more just for having better features, so there probably will be no choice but to use it in the future since if nobody is using PO, yeaaah.

"Spectating a battle gives you the full log, not just from the point you started watching."
^ I like this.

"Its team chooser is built into the challenge window."
^ I dislike this.

Cycle
October 10th, 2011, 04:06 PM
Why is there never anyone on? There used to be about ten on at any time of day I was on but now when I go on, no one is there.

e.e

Vrai
October 11th, 2011, 10:00 AM
Why is there never anyone on? There used to be about ten on at any time of day I was on but now when I go on, no one is there.

e.e
Activity has always declined around this time. Everyone's schedule suddenly got bigger etc. I know I'll be hanging around a lot more in the next few weeks when football clears up for me, and I'm sure other people will gradually come back too.

edit: so rain stall is annoying as hell.

Forever
October 11th, 2011, 03:59 PM
edit: so rain stall is annoying as hell.

Omg rain, I swear it's all I ever face. I can generally stand a chance against sun (haven't really faced hail/sand :x) but rain idk it's usually annoying for me. What sucks is that the main issue is usually Politoed, lol.

PlatinumDude
October 11th, 2011, 04:25 PM
Omg rain, I swear it's all I ever face. I can generally stand a chance against sun (haven't really faced hail/sand :x) but rain idk it's usually annoying for me. What sucks is that the main issue is usually Politoed, lol.

But Ferrothorn can easily take on rain teams. IMO, the only Pokemon it would have a hard time against in a rain team is Toxicroak, who can hit it for super effective damage. The damage it takes from Iron Barbs can also be healed by Dry Skin.

Also, here's something I don't get: whenever Spikes and Stealth Rock are options on a Pokemon's sets, why is Spikes the primary option? Personally, I like Stealth Rock because of how it hits all types of Pokemon, though some of them resist it (and 4 Pokemon have 4x resists to it).

Forever
October 11th, 2011, 04:40 PM
But Ferrothorn can easily take on rain teams. IMO, the only Pokemon it would have a hard time against in a rain team is Toxicroak, who can hit it for super effective damage. The damage it takes from Iron Barbs can also be healed by Dry Skin.

Also, here's something I don't get: whenever Spikes and Stealth Rock are options on a Pokemon's sets, why is Spikes the primary option? Personally, I like Stealth Rock because of how it hits all types of Pokemon, though some of them resist it (and 4 Pokemon have 4x resists to it).

Well, Jirachi can take most of the team (aka tenta/toed/croak after like 2 CMs) only thing is toed usually uses perish song and boom, and there's nothing I really want to switch out to so I guess Ferrothorn could work but I'm trying out Whimsicott which should be able to encore etc toed SO WE SHALL SEE. Other than that I really have no other issues with rain, lol.

yeah idek, 'tis why most of mine are immune to spikes lol :x SR hurts though..

Exile
October 11th, 2011, 07:09 PM
My team is very weak to rain stall, as Quagsire and Chansey are untouchable as a core, Rain Stall is definitely potent this gen, albeit I do feel like the metagame has now become Ninetales+Dugtrio+Volcarona. Normally, I beat these teams if I can get rid of Dugtrio, but dear god it is a chore. I have to play insanely conservative with Heatran as I absolutely cannot afford to let it snap its balloon early, rendering it Duggy bait.

Vrai
October 11th, 2011, 08:57 PM
But Ferrothorn can easily take on rain teams. IMO, the only Pokemon it would have a hard time against in a rain team is Toxicroak, who can hit it for super effective damage. The damage it takes from Iron Barbs can also be healed by Dry Skin.

Also, here's something I don't get: whenever Spikes and Stealth Rock are options on a Pokemon's sets, why is Spikes the primary option? Personally, I like Stealth Rock because of how it hits all types of Pokemon, though some of them resist it (and 4 Pokemon have 4x resists to it).
I always feel like everything on a rain team should at least be able to deal with Ferrothorn and if it absolutely can't then really Ferro isn't walling the entirety of a rain team forever. You can only take so many Specs Hydro Pumps... plus things like Toxicroak, Dragonite (whether Sub/DD or Specs Hurricane), Tornadus, Scizor... the list goes on and on. I don't really like using Ferrothorn as it's incredibly predictable and honestly people have found so many workarounds that I'm just like meh, it's Ferrothorn. Maybe I'll try a Curse set since finding an effective gimmick is awesome but until then I don't think I'll be using a Ferrothorn.

Spikes is rarer than SR, ergo it's usually preferred because you can fit SR on many more things.


Well, Jirachi can take most of the team (aka tenta/toed/croak after like 2 CMs) only thing is toed usually uses perish song and boom, and there's nothing I really want to switch out to so I guess Ferrothorn could work but I'm trying out Whimsicott which should be able to encore etc toed SO WE SHALL SEE. Other than that I really have no other issues with rain, lol.

yeah idek, 'tis why most of mine are immune to spikes lol :x SR hurts though..

yeah stop using flying types noob

Toxic Spikes are really deadly in this metagame. Unless you're running like mono-immune, it nails everything and all of the common spinners too (...save tenta) and even helps win the weather war. Toxic Spikes are so insanely useful in this metagame, really. Then again, I don't ever want to play a rain stall vs rain stall game either lol. THATD BE FUN

My team is very weak to rain stall, as Quagsire and Chansey are untouchable as a core, Rain Stall is definitely potent this gen, albeit I do feel like the metagame has now become Ninetales+Dugtrio+Volcarona. Normally, I beat these teams if I can get rid of Dugtrio, but dear god it is a chore. I have to play insanely conservative with Heatran as I absolutely cannot afford to let it snap its balloon early, rendering it Duggy bait.

Rain and sun teams are getting more and more popular as the usage of sand declines slightly. And yeah... those sun teams are insane. Maybe those people who didn't want Excadrill banned really knew what they were talking about. );

It'll be a chore to come up with a decent nonweather team that can actually deal with the insane offensive pressure of sun teams + the defensive presence of rain stall. I don't even know where to begin.

Forever
October 11th, 2011, 10:35 PM
not using flying types fool! owait gliscor, okay and the dragon but that totally doesn't count. :3 nvm apparently two = most of in where my brain was at, i keep thinking jirachi has levitate for some stupid reason when thinking about it lol.

oh. toxic spikes is definitely the worst to face & come across. :(
more reasons i love jirachi

Poueff
October 12th, 2011, 01:24 AM
Toxic Spikes is the first thing I set up. And if I get lucky, I get someone who tries to set up DD on my lead (forretress, who is ****ing king) and after I set up all my hazards (full TS + Stealth Rock) and he hits me, Red Card makes all his work useless - and I can also hit EQ on the guy next in his team (and if that doesn't work, I have two more back up tactics to get rid of the mother****ers).

I think Excadrill shouldn't be banned for two very basic reasons:
-It's so ****ing easy to counter it's not even funny. I mean it, even with air balloon, everything is super effective against it except the Latis with Dragon Pulse + Psyshock, but really, normally teams have at least one bulky/fast water or fire type. Or a fighter.
-Other weather

Vrai
October 12th, 2011, 02:55 AM
Toxic Spikes is the first thing I set up. And if I get lucky, I get someone who tries to set up DD on my lead (forretress, who is ****ing king) and after I set up all my hazards (full TS + Stealth Rock) and he hits me, Red Card makes all his work useless - and I can also hit EQ on the guy next in his team (and if that doesn't work, I have two more back up tactics to get rid of the mother****ers).

I think Excadrill shouldn't be banned for two very basic reasons:
-It's so ****ing easy to counter it's not even funny. I mean it, even with air balloon, everything is super effective against it except the Latis with Dragon Pulse + Psyshock, but really, normally teams have at least one bulky/fast water or fire type. Or a fighter.
-Other weather
That's an interesting idea and I've never really thought it before. Red Card Forretress.. To be honest though, I like Gyro Ball better than Earthquake because then you can nail Espeon, who is Forry's greatest enemy.

It's impossible to fullstop counter. Air Balloon is risky because as you switch in it could just use another move and then you'd be outta luck. It was just incredibly centralizing and with an SD, it still did heavy damage to those bulky Water types, OHKO'd Fire types, and nearly massacres things like Conkeldurr. Plus it outspeeds everything thanks to Sand Rush.

Poueff
October 12th, 2011, 10:41 AM
not using flying types fool! owait gliscor, okay and the dragon but that totally doesn't count. :3 nvm apparently two = most of in where my brain was at, i keep thinking jirachi has levitate for some stupid reason when thinking about it lol.

oh. toxic spikes is definitely the worst to face & come across. :(
more reasons i love jirachi

Still imune for steel type. I hate Jirachi and his kind (say... Celebi, Whimsiscott and friends) both because they are annoying to the max and they suck when they use them (happens with tons of steel types, just not my style >.<)

Speed Boost. If not Blaziken (I use the PO Wi-Fi server and it's not banned there, so I use Blaziken), something like Sharpedo does the trick too. Just the first turn and the protect boost are enough to outspeed Sand Rush excadrill (at least with Blaziken, and mine has his EVs away from speed because I know I can get it with SB).

That or anything priority, which is a basis in any team really just for revenge kills.

Porygon Z
October 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM
With Excadrill and Thundurus being Uber now, I assume this tier will get lots of new strategies. What do you think?

Vrai
October 12th, 2011, 05:31 PM
With Excadrill and Thundurus being Uber now, I assume this tier will get lots of new strategies. What do you think?
Sun teams and Rain teams have largely emerged as dominant threats. Old, forgotten threats such as SD Lucario (who was never used because it was so simple to revenge with Excadrill) and Zapdos have been swarming back in. By all means there will be tons of new strategies and teambuilds. Things that worked when Excadrill was around very well might not work now, and vice versa. You'll see a lot of people experimenting with a lot of things now but eventually things will settle down and we'll probably start seeing what's going to be the most dominant in this new metagame.

grodkorv
October 13th, 2011, 06:04 AM
Just wondering if there is anyone playing LC?
I want to start, just wanted to know if anyone else plays it (:

Dark Azelf
October 13th, 2011, 08:58 AM
Heavy Offense is actually viable now as Exca and Thundurus cant just revenge kill/slaughter everything.

Vrai
October 13th, 2011, 09:59 AM
Just wondering if there is anyone playing LC?
I want to start, just wanted to know if anyone else plays it (:

There are a lot of people but most of them aren't concentrated here. There are a few people who enjoy playing it here though! Might as well give it a try. 8)

Heavy Offense is actually viable now as Exca and Thundurus cant just revenge kill/slaughter everything.

Yup. Alakazam is pretty boss now too, outspeeding everything that doesn't have a scarf really. Carrying checks to a few of the common scarf users like Rotom-W and Terrakion and Landorus really makes Zam's job pretty easy.

PikachuGuy
October 13th, 2011, 04:04 PM
Got a little question for you vets, would you rather use Alakazam or Mewtwo? I like Mewtwo since his high stats, but since he's an Uber, I like Alakazam and I think he is more fair to use. But I hate his low defense....or Espeon?

flight
October 13th, 2011, 04:15 PM
Got a little question for you vets, would you rather use Alakazam or Mewtwo? I like Mewtwo since his high stats, but since he's an Uber, I like Alakazam and I think he is more fair to use. But I hate his low defense....or Espeon?

This is just my own personal advice, but take it with a grain of salt until a more experienced regular(like Karpman or Vrai or someone else) answers your inquiry, too.

As Vrai has stated, Alakazam has a fairly high base speed, and although it's pretty frail, it's offenses(well, special attack) isn't really anything to scoff at. As far as Espeon is concerned, Magic Bounce allows it to set up Reflect/Light Screen(without any fear from Taunt and it also wards away entry hazards) and also, due to it's ability, it makes quite an impressive Baton Pass user.

Remember that Espeon doesn't have excellent defenses either, but also understand that the defenses aren't really the purpose of these Pokemon. Alakazam need not worry about defenses a lot of the time if used correctly(I believe it can set up a CM or two before sweeping? Correct me if I'm wrong here). But again, it depends on what would be more beneficial to your team. n___n;

Poueff
October 17th, 2011, 09:25 AM
I now changed to a more balanced team, but a more powerful/tactical one, which can really screw people over.

-Lead = Forretress (explained above)
-Crazy Uber *****y Destroyaaah = Swellow - Takes out at least 2/3 team members, and sometimes wins the match for me. She survives priority of any kind like a champ, normally not taking much, and OHKOs everything in sight that's not steel/rock. Also pretty nice for revenge kills, as she can get toxic orb working right away. (Brave Bird + Facade + Quick Attack + Pursuit)
-Fast Set up Sweeper = Gyarados - When I am able to set him up with one/two DDs, he's beast. Only works when I predict correctly - which is 70/30
-Scarfing Hard Hitting Beast = Hydreigon. Basicly an all-out fast+strong combo, even though it normally only stays in for a couple of turns max., since it has a ton of counters. He's pretty awesome though. (Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Dark Pulse + Stone Edge)
-Slow Set Up Bulky Sweeper = Eelektross (physical, with Wild Volt and Thrash... I love normal wrecking attacks, and with the high attack it gets, it's plummels through a team with at least a coil or two. Being slow is his main flaw, but he can take most hits)
-Support/Wall = Blissey (Heal Bell + Wish + Flamethrower/Hyper Beam (she's hardcore) + Thunder Wave - for those who aren't affected by Toxic Spikes)

I'll post it with more detail a bit later, since I'm not at home and I don't have their team status (also not sure about some of the things mentioned, like Hydreigon in general, since I only remember having a scarf and the only scarfs in the box that make sense here are him and Darmanitan, but I also remember having 3 physical attackers and 1 special). But I was thinking about getting a Milotic instead of Gyarados, since the 4x weakness to electric bugs me incase one shows up (even though grass being neutral is useful), and because setting up DDs the way he does takes a ton of health away, and sometimes kills, being easy bait for the ever present Scizor (almost OHKO'd after SR damage). Milotic is also bulky as all hell, even without rain present.

What also worries me is me being mainly physical (like I said, attackers = 3 physical and 1 special).
Please no suggestions of Ferrothorn.

I haven't played with this team much though, since before I was trying out Infernape one more time. OHKO's Gliscor after one Overheat, which is awesome.

Thank you for your time, I guess x)

Cycle
October 17th, 2011, 12:42 PM
Got a little question for you vets, would you rather use Alakazam or Mewtwo? I like Mewtwo since his high stats, but since he's an Uber, I like Alakazam and I think he is more fair to use. But I hate his low defense....or Espeon?

Sup PikachuGuy, it's nice to see you coming here to ask questions!

Choosing between Alakazam and Mewtwo really depends on your preference. One of the main things you should think about is what tiers they are in. These two pokemon are situated in two tiers, Ubers, and RU(although Alakazam is likely to be bumped up to UU if not OU.) For a complete list of the tiers, go here: http://www.smogon.com/bw/tiers/

Now onto the real question: Which one will you pick? Well, I myself prefer Alakazam in a standard match. This is because I'm not much of a competitive Uber player and play more standard BW OU. However, if there are no restrictions, go with Mewtwo. This is because Mewtwo has significantly better stats, a wider movepool to abuse, and is generally one of the deadliest sweepers- even in ubers, at least to my knowledge.

I now changed to a more balanced team, but a more powerful/tactical one, which can really screw people over.

-Lead = Forretress (explained above)
-Crazy Uber *****y Destroyaaah = Swellow - Takes out at least 2/3 team members, and sometimes wins the match for me. She survives priority of any kind like a champ, normally not taking much, and OHKOs everything in sight that's not steel/rock. Also pretty nice for revenge kills, as she can get toxic orb working right away. (Brave Bird + Facade + Quick Attack + Pursuit)
-Fast Set up Sweeper = Gyarados - When I am able to set him up with one/two DDs, he's beast. Only works when I predict correctly - which is 70/30
-Scarfing Hard Hitting Beast = Hydreigon. Basicly an all-out fast+strong combo, even though it normally only stays in for a couple of turns max., since it has a ton of counters. He's pretty awesome though. (Draco Meteor + Fire Blast + Dark Pulse + Stone Edge)
-Slow Set Up Bulky Sweeper = Eelektross (physical, with Wild Volt and Thrash... I love normal wrecking attacks, and with the high attack it gets, it's plummels through a team with at least a coil or two. Being slow is his main flaw, but he can take most hits)
-Support/Wall = Blissey (Heal Bell + Wish + Flamethrower/Hyper Beam (she's hardcore) + Thunder Wave - for those who aren't affected by Toxic Spikes)

I'll post it with more detail a bit later, since I'm not at home and I don't have their team status (also not sure about some of the things mentioned, like Hydreigon in general, since I only remember having a scarf and the only scarfs in the box that make sense here are him and Darmanitan, but I also remember having 3 physical attackers and 1 special). But I was thinking about getting a Milotic instead of Gyarados, since the 4x weakness to electric bugs me incase one shows up (even though grass being neutral is useful), and because setting up DDs the way he does takes a ton of health away, and sometimes kills, being easy bait for the ever present Scizor (almost OHKO'd after SR damage). Milotic is also bulky as all hell, even without rain present.

What also worries me is me being mainly physical (like I said, attackers = 3 physical and 1 special).
Please no suggestions of Ferrothorn.

I haven't played with this team much though, since before I was trying out Infernape one more time. OHKO's Gliscor after one Overheat, which is awesome.

Thank you for your time, I guess x)
Alright, before I start, this is better off as a RMT in a new thread. However, I'll take the time to go over this team with you anyways. Swellow absolutely wants U-Turn over Pursuit. U-Turn is an amazing attack and allows you to scout the opponent's playstyle and their switch in. It gains you momentum and lets you take control of the match. Hydreigon wants U-turn as well, this forms a deadly U-Turn core between Swellow and Hydreigon, gaining you much momentum. Elektross wants Dragon Tail over Thrash. This is because Elektross does not gain STAB on Thrash and is forced to be confused after using it; Outrage is only a viable move because dragon types gets STAB and there is only ONE resist against it. On Blissey, make sure to use flamethrower and NOT hyper beam. Hyper beam is a terrible move in competitve play; it locks you in the field while the opponent can do whatever they want. Run protect in the last slot, and maybe try out toxic over thunder wave.

Thank you for coming by and to both of you, have a nice day!

Forever
October 19th, 2011, 05:09 AM
Has anyone else faced the issue of overpredicting in like every battle? I feel like all I ever do is overpredict which works out really bad for me. For example, wifi lets me see a team, see Politoed, send out Virizion. Assume they wouldn't keep it in on Virizion because it can basically 2HKO it, use Stone Edge as there are flying types @ preview, nope, keep it in, do bad... etc.

And when I assume people will start off with Rotom-W (probably trick, assuming that deoxys-s will be screens but haha it isn't), they... don't. And yet a great portion of others do. Idk I should just assume nobody is going to play strategically or something, 'cause it's pretty annoying to lose batltes in general from overpredicting that I'd otherwise have won lol.

Vrai
October 19th, 2011, 10:05 AM
Has anyone else faced the issue of overpredicting in like every battle? I feel like all I ever do is overpredict which works out really bad for me. For example, wifi lets me see a team, see Politoed, send out Virizion. Assume they wouldn't keep it in on Virizion because it can basically 2HKO it, use Stone Edge as there are flying types @ preview, nope, keep it in, do bad... etc.

And when I assume people will start off with Rotom-W (probably trick, assuming that deoxys-s will be screens but haha it isn't), they... don't. And yet a great portion of others do. Idk I should just assume nobody is going to play strategically or something, 'cause it's pretty annoying to lose batltes in general from overpredicting that I'd otherwise have won lol.
Yeah, I did. Prediction is an art, really - especially predicting on the ladder. You can't just assume your opponent will be a high-calibre opponent to begin with. More often than not, the first few turns are best spent by going with the safest move and scouting how your opponent plays and responds to your move. From there you can identify their playstyle and start to plan your predictions accordingly. It's just a learn-by-experience thing; if you find yourself overpredicting all the time, just try to focus on making the safe move unless the prediction is absolutely vital to winning the game. It's better to play it safe and make slow strides rather than go balls to the wall turn one and risk losing the whole match.

edit: also oh my goodness this is a fabulous resource

http://www.honko.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html

Forever
October 19th, 2011, 10:27 PM
Yeah, I did. Prediction is an art, really - especially predicting on the ladder. You can't just assume your opponent will be a high-calibre opponent to begin with. More often than not, the first few turns are best spent by going with the safest move and scouting how your opponent plays and responds to your move. From there you can identify their playstyle and start to plan your predictions accordingly. It's just a learn-by-experience thing; if you find yourself overpredicting all the time, just try to focus on making the safe move unless the prediction is absolutely vital to winning the game. It's better to play it safe and make slow strides rather than go balls to the wall turn one and risk losing the whole match.

edit: also oh my goodness this is a fabulous resource

http://www.honko.freehosting.com/coverage_calc.html


It'd probably be easier for me if I did turn off wifi, since without wifi, Deoxys-S should be able to cover the most common leads without me overpredicting in regards to who the opponent will start off with, but yeah I'll try the safest and see if people don't expect that :x

That is amazing and going to be so useful! How'd you find it?