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marz
June 27th, 2011, 10:23 PM
Born that way or is it a choice?

Masqueraine
June 27th, 2011, 10:43 PM
I don't know if you're born gay, but I think once you recognize your sexuality it's hard to change.

Ctrl.Alt.Geak
June 28th, 2011, 12:02 AM
Born that way for sure. Its scientifically proven. I dont want to start a fight but it does tend to bother me when people think its a choice :(

Asa
June 28th, 2011, 12:07 AM
I was born this way. I didn't choose to be homosexual.

インフェルノの津波
June 28th, 2011, 12:07 AM
I've never met a kid who was gay until after the age of like, 10. Not too sure about that one though

inb4flamewar, I think it's mainly choice and what happened in your life. I'm not exactly sure how someone is born gay, since well you know you weren't born that way, although I'm not about to say it's a disease. So, choice.

EDIT: Okay I'm not too sure anymore, since apparently sexual attraction begins in the brain, so I guess someone could be born gay. Look the matter confuses me even more so than religion, so don't go bashing me.

NurseBarbra
June 28th, 2011, 12:13 AM
Born that way. Sexual orientation is mentally hardwired into your brain at birth, as such, and the reason people don't identify as gay and such until after 10 - 12 years of age is the simple reason that the hormones that fuel sexual drive aren't in the body until puberty, which doesn't happen till about 10 or 11.

Oryx
June 28th, 2011, 12:16 AM
I've never met a kid who was gay until after the age of like, 10. Not too sure about that one though

inb4flamewar, I think it's mainly choice and what happened in your life. I'm not exactly sure how someone is born gay, since well you know you weren't born that way, although I'm not about to say it's a disease. So, choice.

Well tbh, I've never met a kid who was straight until after the age of 10 either. Young children don't know what their sexuality is. It's default assumed straight because that's what the majority of people are, but kids aren't romantically attracted to other people in the same way that people who have begun puberty are.

So yeah, it's in your DNA in my opinion. I don't have studies and stuff to throw at people that disagree, but I personally think it's a dense to think that people who go through a lot of pain, bullying, abuse, and heartache from being gay made that choice themselves.

AtomicoExploda
June 28th, 2011, 12:30 AM
In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.

Pokemon Trainer Touko
June 28th, 2011, 12:31 AM
Born that way. You can't really choose to be homosexual xD;;

Jubilation
June 28th, 2011, 12:34 AM
Atomico, really? Like really?

Being gay is not a choice whatsoever.

インフェルノの津波
June 28th, 2011, 12:44 AM
Well being gay means you have a sexual preference other than the natural one, so in sense yes, it is a disease. Yeah, there is something wrong with the idea of being gay.

Doesn't mean it's wrong, right or whatever hell the third option is. (wait a minute, that doesn't make sense...)

And yeah people don't have a choice anymore, which is kinda unfair if you ask me. People accept Autism, but they won't accept gays. What the hell?

AtomicoExploda
June 28th, 2011, 12:45 AM
Atomico, really? Like really?

Being gay is not a choice whatsoever.

Yes, really. If you don't like what I say, then do note that's it's just my opinion.

インフェルノの津波
June 28th, 2011, 12:47 AM
Well it's not really a opinion, it's kinda like saying all Autistics choose to be that way, which is utter *******.

~Ryukaa
June 28th, 2011, 12:51 AM
You get born with it. There's no way anybody would be able to choose their sexuality. There's nothing wrong with being gay, either. They're normal people, just have different tastes, is all.

JimJams
June 28th, 2011, 01:19 AM
I'm on the right track baby, I was born this way! ;P

Well, actually I'm a pan-romantic demisexual who happens to be in a homosexual relationship.

I think the best way to describe my sexual orientation is just not giving much of a damn..XD

Kyoko
June 28th, 2011, 03:12 AM
For people saying you don't know until later than like age 10 that you're gay.....well duh. most boys and girls won't go near each other because of cooties until then anyway, so how is one to know that early?

and for those who think it's a choice: explain to me when you chose to be straight. people are born with their sexual orientation but obviously you're not sure of what you want until the hormones start kickin' in.

Owl
June 28th, 2011, 04:26 AM
I believe you're born that way, seeing has kids don't really know their sexuality, like some other users stated.

Sansa Stark
June 28th, 2011, 04:41 AM
In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.
http://i56.tinypic.com/i2su50.jpg
Excuse me, but what year is this again?
This isn't an opinion - this is just bigotry.

"Born this way"? A phrase that has been monopolized and profited from.
Sickening, really. (And not in a good way)

I was born gay. There were instances of it in my childhood that were uninfluenced by anything - I had no idea what 'gay' was until I was around 10 or 11.
When I was in kindergarten, during the game of 'house' (where you had the husband, wife, kids, pets, whatever and you all lived together and whatever)..I had a husband. When my teachers called me out on this (I went to a private school), I was ever so confused.

It most certainly is not a disorder.

Cassino
June 28th, 2011, 07:27 AM
I couldn't call having any sexuality a choice, but nor that everyone is born that way.
Rather, I suppose that our (generally early) life experiences are what decides the matter.


Well it's not really a opinion, it's kinda like saying all Autistics choose to be that way, which is utter *******.
Please don't let anger cloud your better judgement; AtomicoExploda did not say anything about choices.

Esper
June 28th, 2011, 08:14 AM
I believe that the majority of people have genetically predetermined sexual orientations (whatever they may be), but I don't discount the possibility that a handful of the population can have some level of choice in the matter.

Liliana Vess
June 28th, 2011, 08:24 AM
Well i'm gay and to be honest i don't really know if i was born this was, i know for sure its not a choice but i didn't exactly have the most perfect childhood so you could say the problems back then had something to do with it. but then again i don't really remember most of it so i could've been gay before all of it. i don't know.
To me though i like to think i was born this was as it makes more sense to say its hormones and whatnot that cause me to be attracted to the same sex.

It most certainly is not a disorder.
100% agree there

Asa
June 28th, 2011, 08:48 AM
In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.
Even though it's your so called 'opinion' I certainly don't agree with it. Just keep in mind it's 2011 so wake up and smell the beans we've been around for how long? People like you make this world ridiculous just saying.
Also, making this public:
http://screensnapr.com/-/uploads/NHk4nW.png

Alli
June 28th, 2011, 08:57 AM
Why would anyone choose to be gay? To go through any suffering, mentally and/or physically? Who would choose this path, especially after seeing and hearing the horror stories? I believe you're either born that way or the other way(s). It's most certainly not a disorder, and it's no one's fault. It's just how things are gonna be. Nothing you can do or say.

Noah Ridgewood
June 28th, 2011, 09:16 AM
You were born that way. The only thing you have a choice over is if you accept it or not, which is why I think that some people get the misconception that being gay is a choice. I think people who believe being gay is a choice are fools. That's like saying that you can choose who you're attracted to, which is silly. You don't just go into a room, and say "I want to be attracted to that person over there!" and then suddenly you're attracted to them.

Massacre.
June 28th, 2011, 09:20 AM
Definitely born. I agree with ^. You can't choose just to be gay, straight, or bisexual. I know, for a fact that I am bisexual.

~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~
June 28th, 2011, 09:21 AM
I think it's a choice due to your surroundings


:t354:TG

Blue Nocturne
June 28th, 2011, 01:01 PM
Patchy beat me to it... and put it far more eloquently than I ever could. Who you're attracted to isn't a choice in the slightest, what is a choice is whether you choose to deny such feelings or accept them. You don't choose to be homosexual or bisexual (my personal favourite ;P) in the same way you don't choose to be straight or tall.

Having said that, I wish to avoid the term "Born This Way" at any cost.


In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.
I should be offended by this but I'm actually quite entertained at how bigoted it is.

marz
June 28th, 2011, 08:34 PM
It's interesting to me the number of people who think sexual orientation is genetic. I honestly think that it varies from case to case. There is no one answer, just like most things in life.

I believe that for certain people, such events have happened in their lives that cause sexual orientation to be a choice. And I prefer to think of it as a choice, myself. Everyone makes such a big deal out of sexual orientation, probably because everyone makes a huge deal out of romance itself. But who says you have to be attracted to one specific gender all your life? If there weren't such taboos and prejudices linked to homosexuality, if it was as much an accepted part of our lives as doing the groceries once a week, I am convinced that many more people would be open to the idea of relations with those of the same sex, and would routinely switch between the two genders, just for kicks. Essentially, if it were not tabooed, a large sum of the population would be bisexual. And then you'd always have a small percentage that obviously don't follow the trends and stick to a specific gender for whatever reason.

I prefer to think of it like this: All your life, have you liked one single colour only? Has one colour been your favourite colour since you can remember? Some of you, sure, maybe, and cool for you. But not me, and I'm willing to bet not most of you either. Why did that change? Red used to be your favourite colour, but now it's second-best to green. You can't explain it, you just prefer the shade, you like what it reminds you of, how it makes you feel. Liking a colour, liking anything, is an attraction. Now you see where I'm going with this. Sexual orientation is an attraction and it can change. Not overnight, definitely not, but it can change. And the only reason why it can change is because everyone assumes their child is straight from birth.

However, there are always and always will be cases that disprove my view. You can all promote the notion that sexual orientation is genetic, and I won't disagree (completely) because I used to think that way too. But I've thought about it and this is the conclusion I've come to.




tl;dr it's a choice.

Drew
June 28th, 2011, 08:45 PM
Born that way.

Never understood why some people think it's a choice, because why would some people choose something that causes pain, and drives some people to suicide? >_> I mean, really.

Alice
June 28th, 2011, 08:50 PM
Neither.

Any person is simply the culmination of all of the events they've experienced in their life. Even their sexuality is shaped by people/things around them as they grow up.

FreakyLocz14
June 28th, 2011, 10:04 PM
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n336/freakylocz14/gif.gif

It's not a choice. Who would choose to be hated and discriminated against?

Sansa Stark
June 28th, 2011, 10:37 PM
tl;dr it's a choice.
So, when did you choose to be straight?????
I have never liked a girl in a romantic way.
Your color analogy does not work. At all. Color and who you love aren't the same thing.

Renii
June 28th, 2011, 10:59 PM
.....
tl;dr it's a choice.

Way to go! Comparing sexual attraction to colour? Do you even compare your girlfriends to clothes? Buy them as you please and throw them away when they're out of fashion?
I'm disgusted :<
But... To each his own :D


I know for sure, no queer person can say that it's a choice. When does one choose to be straight? Or is the world even ready to accept it as a choice? There are still people like "Atomico" who just find it hard to accept homosexuality.
You're born gay, definitely.
I know for sure; my childhood was spent fighting bullies who called me a "weirdo", "gay", "sissy" or a girl. If I wasn't always gay (bisexual actually) then...

Vrai
June 29th, 2011, 10:33 AM
I don't think you can just pick and choose things like that. And if you find yourself flip-flopping back and forth anyway I'd think you were bisexual or some other terminology that I probably am not familiar with. :x So yeah, I'm pretty sure you figure out your preferences rather than making a direct decision. You could say that's "being born with it" but at the same time I don't really believe that anything is predetermined - you just come into it on your own, I think.

marz
June 29th, 2011, 11:02 AM
So, when did you choose to be straight?????
I have never liked a girl in a romantic way.
Your color analogy does not work. At all. Color and who you love aren't the same thing.

I chose to be straight when I realized the two aspects of sexual attraction: Physical attraction, and emotional attraction. I can recognize good-looking boys, so that's half the problem solved there. Emotional attraction is no less harder to find, either. But I do not want to be emotionally attracted to any man, and therefore choose to be straight.

Good for you, maybe you're part of the exception. You're really not giving me enough to work with here to actually make a valid argument.

My colour analogy works just fine. Colour and who you love are the exact same thing when you break it down to what it is, and for that, I redirect you back to my original post.

Way to go! Comparing sexual attraction to colour? Do you even compare your girlfriends to clothes? Buy them as you please and throw them away when they're out of fashion?
I'm disgusted :<
But... To each his own :D


I know for sure, no queer person can say that it's a choice. When does one choose to be straight? Or is the world even ready to accept it as a choice? There are still people like "Atomico" who just find it hard to accept homosexuality.
You're born gay, definitely.
I know for sure; my childhood was spent fighting bullies who called me a "weirdo", "gay", "sissy" or a girl. If I wasn't always gay (bisexual actually) then...

Hmm.. well, yes, you could compare a girlfriend to clothes. I wouldn't, but one could. Especially in our teenage years, girlfriends come and go so easily, so I could see an analogy made there.
Be disgusted. I really could not give less of a crap. You're taking my argument way too seriously, as if I'm a homophobe of some sort. Just because I think it's a choice does not mean I'm against homosexuals and believe that certain homosexuals can just up and change their sexual preferences. Not at all what I said.

What I find hilarious is that I give an actual, detailed response of why I think it's a choice, and all you can come back with is "You're born gay, definitely." oh, damn I'm convinced. You're right I'm wrong.
Yeah and my childhood was spent playing Pokemon. Now I'm on a Pokemon forum. I really don't see your point. Just because someone treats you as something doesn't mean you are that thing. Grow a pair, seriously.

poopnoodle
June 29th, 2011, 11:20 AM
i don't think it's a genetic condition, and i agree with some of (edit: all of, since i've seen his most recent post) what penatrait has to say. i see sexuality as more of a personal fetish than an encoded orientation, and i think the ideas that people are attracted to either one or the other and gender will define your love life are products of social upbringing. i don't think it's the type of attraction that can be easily altered but it differs from person to person, depending on their perspective and their romantic feelings for another. i've seen generally straight people develop attraction to people of their own gender (usually men in the locker room), sometimes because of romantic feelings. in this topic, people tend to exchange love and attraction as if they mean the same thing, but emotional attachment has more bearing on a meaningful, romantic relationship than physical attraction. like, i wouldn't pass a good romantic fling with a woman because i'm generally attracted to masculinity. i feel like i didn't really organize my thoughts well here but ah, i'm done typing

Stash
June 29th, 2011, 11:31 AM
I'd like to think it is arguably genetic, hence 'born this way', but that would contradict a particular experience my brother had with homosexuality, so my final verdict would be that I seriously have no idea and cannot really fathom it.

The two posters above me make a valid point, though.

Esper
June 29th, 2011, 11:42 AM
My colour analogy works just fine. Colour and who you love are the exact same thing when you break it down to what it is, and for that, I redirect you back to my original post.
Sexual attraction doesn't work the same way that 'attraction' to color works. First, there are more colors than there are sexes or genders. Or, more specifically, there are more views of colors (since you might call something blue what I would call turquoise, and so on) and 'shades of grey' as it were. Colors are also strictly visual whereas attraction to a person can involve multiple senses and more abstract ideas like personality. I'd also argue that people don't really have "favorite" colors as much as they have patterns of choosing certain colors because of habit or associations with other things (like how fast food is almost always colored in red and yellow) and that they would be more attracted to good color schemes and a general good artistic use of color, whatever color it may be, than to their preferred colors.

But in general I agree with you. Sort of. I think that orientation comes out (haha) in several ways and that no single one factor is solely responsible for everyone's orientation. I do think genetics play a big role though. I'm still open to the idea that people can 'choose' how they are attracted to people though I wouldn't want to use the word 'choose' since it implies it's a conscious decision. I don't think it is. If anything I'd say there is an element of association (in which case the color analogy is somewhat applicable) where something that is pleasing to a person get associated with a particular sex, or sexes. I suppose you could equate that to a fetish, but again I don't want to use that word because it carries a lot of baggage, though I personally don't have a problem with non-violent, consensual fetishes.

In general I'd think that all sexuality is some mishmash of genetics and environment. The only problem I'm having is why so many people end up becoming straight. I know we're a heteronormative society so there's the constant reinforcement of a female/male dichotomy, but that's so abstract that I have trouble seeing how it would affect someone's, er, mojo libido. I can only feel like there's a strong genetic factor which causes the majority of people to have a default "straight" orientation.

Alli
June 29th, 2011, 11:50 AM
I agree with lil Penatrait to some extent, after talking on MSN about this. Speaking of that, use some of those examples you used when talking to me. But anyway, I'm a bit in the middle. I think, in certain situations, it is a choice, but more often than not, then no, I don't think it's of that person's choosing. But you know, I don't think there's one definite answer to this tbh. But that makes it all the more fun to discuss, I reckon.

Edit: I don't wanna post again, but I just wanna say I agree fully with Klippy down below me here.

Klippy
June 29th, 2011, 09:19 PM
I personally feel it's just part of who you are. It's not who you are, but it's part of what makes you, you. And whether it be how you're born or a choice that you date men or women, if you're happy with who you are, then that's all that matters in the world.

A family member of mine is gay and has been since a very young age. He didn't know he was, and was nearly engaged to a woman at one point. So do I think he chose to be gay? No, though I don't know whether it was because he realized he was or whether he was dating women to cover it up. Still. It makes me love him no less because of it, and that goes in regards to any relationship, whether friends or family. They're the same person they always were and always will be, but one trait has changed in the many that they have.

If someone else thinks it's a choice, then accept that and move on. It doesn't really affect your life by what they think, so why get up in arms about someone voicing their opinion in an opinion-orientated forum? If you don't like seeing other people post what they think, then go find somewhere else to frequent, because this obviously is a poor choice for you to be browsing in.

Renii
June 29th, 2011, 10:31 PM
My colour analogy works just fine. Colour and who you love are the exact same thing when you break it down to what it is, and for that, I redirect you back to my original post.



Hmm.. well, yes, you could compare a girlfriend to clothes. I wouldn't, but one could. Especially in our teenage years, girlfriends come and go so easily, so I could see an analogy made there.
Be disgusted. I really could not give less of a crap. You're taking my argument way too seriously, as if I'm a homophobe of some sort. Just because I think it's a choice does not mean I'm against homosexuals and believe that certain homosexuals can just up and change their sexual preferences. Not at all what I said.

What I find hilarious is that I give an actual, detailed response of why I think it's a choice, and all you can come back with is "You're born gay, definitely." oh, damn I'm convinced. You're right I'm wrong.
Yeah and my childhood was spent playing Pokemon. Now I'm on a Pokemon forum. I really don't see your point. Just because someone treats you as something doesn't mean you are that thing. Grow a pair, seriously.

I didn't call you a homophobe or anything. I'm just merely stating that your colour analogy doesn't make any sense to me.
Teenage relationships aren't even serious. I'm disgusted because you implied that all relationships are throw-away non-serious ones.

Not being a choice part is my opinion. I'm not dissing out anybody else's opinion. But I'm gonna say something if I don't think your reasons are correct, or at least if they don't make any sense to me.

PkMnTrainer Yellow
June 29th, 2011, 11:03 PM
Neither.

I believe one's orientation is a result of their lifetime's worth of experiences, coming together in a very messy equation chock full of way too many variables to form orientations. While theoretically it can change, it is not as simple as a choice and requires quite a lot more work than simply choosing to actively pursue. Even then, the equation is so full of variables that all you can do even if you want to is guesswork, so it may simply never work even if one tried hard. In short, orientation is a complex, virtually unpredictable (but not technically truly impossible) thing that can potentially be associated with a wide variety of causes, and can also be directly influenced, though how an event influences one is in fact subjective, meaning there is no universal way to effect someone's orientation, though humans vary little enough that a pattern could potentially be made, though it would very easily be destroyed between cultures and through time.

Y'know, I wonder if someone has already created and studied a theory like this. That'd be an interesting read. On the off chance nobody has, perhaps one day I will be the one to do so.

Alley Cat
June 30th, 2011, 12:10 PM
You are born gay/bi/whatever. The same way anyone is born straight. You can't decide what turns you on, and get's the hormones flowing. It's just how your body reacts, and it's the same as how someone might like spicy food over sweet. You can't choose that, you just like that type of food.

BUT, you CAN choose to be in a homosexual lifestyle, but be straight. You could be straight and kiss boys and touch their manly parts. But that doesn't make you gay. Doing does not equate desire.

I don't choose to be gay anymore than anyone else chooses to be straight.
Let's put it this way: I see a naked dude, my pants get a little tighter.
I see a naked chick, nothing happens.

I don't believe I choose when to get my erections.

Tapioca
June 30th, 2011, 01:25 PM
To a certain extent, it is by birth. I have gay friends who have told me they've never been attracted to someone of the opposite sex. They had no idea why, that's just how it was. It wasn't something they could explain, so I don't really take anyone (who is critical of homosexuality) who claims to understand seriously :/

But then again, for others, it's a choice. Poop happens, people go through things. Things that give people the opportunity to ~make a choice~.

I won't go too far into my opinion, the last thing I want is a debate.

I guess the bottom line of what I'm trying to say is
EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT, DEAL WITH IT LUL.

Bluerang1
June 30th, 2011, 01:56 PM
People have points with that "why would you chose to be discriminated against" point. It's more accepted now so people can chose it but I think it's more of a fashion mentality. Oh I think this once, it's what I am. You can chose what to be in life.

Freedom Fighter N
June 30th, 2011, 01:56 PM
Lol at how much provocations this thread made.

Anyway, it's not at birth or anything. It's an acquired trait.

Atomic guy btw next time you attempt to troll homosexuals try not to come with a religious reason. (I once trolled a religious forum and most of the responses said it's some mental illness.. hahahahahahaha, the irony. I even went to a friendly neighborhood gay forum and made a giant flamewar haha)

shenanigans
June 30th, 2011, 01:56 PM
I think it's more a choice than present at birth. Imo your sexuality is a product of life experiences rather than genetics. I find it hard to believe that there is such a thing as a "gay gene" since to pass on your genes you have to be straight. I know genetic mutation is possible but seriously gay people are not mutants.

As for the choice side of things, meh. As I said I think it's a produce of experiences which may or may not have been by choice. So perhaps some contributing factors were due to choice but overall sexuality is mostly out of an individual's control unless they lie to themselves and try to force themselves into being straight.

Masqueraine
June 30th, 2011, 01:58 PM
I don't know if you're born gay, but I think once you recognize your sexuality it's hard to change.

To expand on my earlier post, I don't think anybody can say for sure whether somebody is born gay or straight. That being said I strongly consider it. In the womb it has been proven in studies that the male fetus is viewed as an 'outsider' and so the body reacts to it with estrogen, which is why second born and so on sons have a higher chance of being gay, because as we have seen demonstrated through vaccines once a body is introduced to a foreign substance it has an easier time fighting it off. In the case of a human fetus it instills more feminine tendencies, such as homosexuality in males.

The idea that choosing to be a sexuality is like choosing your favorite color is a bit far fetched. Sexuality is an animalistic trait. You cannot mentally choose to change what makes your blood flow faster. Things like your favorite movie, color, and so on have to do with our higher intellectual capability. Animals don't see a color and prefer it the way we do, and they don't watch television and understand what's going on. Our intellectual capacity is always expanding and with it the things we like or prefer, due to these changes that take place.

So I'll have to disagree completely with Penetrait. People don't choose their sexuality, and if we could, I wouldn't be a lesbian. I'm trying to prove your theory right now but so far I still like a pretty lady.

Edit: @Razor Leaf; As a human with compassion for gay people, it's hard to consider them 'mutants'. But when we see people with cancer, or some other physical deformity we don't think of them as mutants, but with your logic they are. A mutation in a gene that would cause you to like the same gender and not further your species which without our intelligence (aka every other animal in the world) would make us useless is probable. Just because you don't want to call them 'mutants' which you don't have to, doesn't mean it's ruled out. And in some cases mutations are good, so you don't need to place negative emphasis on it.

If someone else thinks it's a choice, then accept that and move on

Yeah lol, we should all just post things and not speak with each other at all. Anti-sociality even on the internet! XD

Daydream
June 30th, 2011, 01:58 PM
I definitely did not choose to be gay, but then I'm not so certain I was born gay either. This is mainly because I could probably identify a few things that might have unconsciously influenced my sexuality. On the opposite side, I can never pinpoint a part of my life where I've felt truly attracted to a female. So I'm not sure? Maybe it's a combination of genetic factors and social/psychological factors.

Although, as it's been stated a few times in different ways in this thread, I think what matters is not why we are one way but simply that we all accept each other as equals, regardless.

Tapioca
June 30th, 2011, 02:08 PM
People have points with that "why would you chose to be discriminated against" point. It's more accepted now so people can chose it but I think it's more of a fashion mentality. Oh I think this once, it's what I am. You can chose what to be in life.

Maybe it's not that they choose to be discriminated against, maybe they have a little but of optimism. That false hope that their peers will accept them for who they are because they're the same person no matter who they love.

And I'm not just replying to you, it's everyone that has that opinion. I'm not against the point, because it makes sense. But it's worded in a weird way.

Bluerang1
June 30th, 2011, 02:33 PM
Maybe it's not that they choose to be discriminated against, maybe they have a little but of optimism. That false hope that their peers will accept them for who they are because they're the same person no matter who they love.

And I'm not just replying to you, it's everyone that has that opinion. I'm not against the point, because it makes sense. But it's worded in a weird way.

I know, you sounded nice even ^_^

I'm glad it's not a band-wagon response, gets discussion going. So maybe this should be moved to Other Chat to debate.

Buttered Coat
June 30th, 2011, 03:35 PM
I think that, depending on the case, it could be both. Alot of homosexual/bisexual etc. don't just choose who they're attracted to. Some people are gay but wish they weren't, and probably vice versa. Influence also has alot to do with it. for example, if a child grows up having two mothers or two fathers, they'll grow up to believe it's completely normal and most likely end up being gay. I'm not saying that's what always happens though, some children can grow up like that and simple think it's normal but be straight. It's not really a choice, though. Some people might not always be gay but later start realizing they're attracted to the same sex. Sometimes it's about experience. If a woman has a bad experience with a man, they can often start seeing all men as bad and start preferring other women. Same with men.

So I guess my point is, it's not a choice, but you're not always exactly born that way.

ソラ
June 30th, 2011, 03:49 PM
I believe you're born gay, lesbian.

as for bisexual, I'm not really sure, since I'm bisexual myself, and I don't know what to believe really. But in Gay, Lesbian are born that way, I simply think its beautiful, being born in any sexuality really is beautiful in my opinion. I dont think there should be any hate toward people that are different, since there is no such thing as being normal in any world, since everyone is different in mental sense, and a physical sense.

hellojazzii
June 30th, 2011, 04:14 PM
i strongly believe that it is not a choice. and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Alice
June 30th, 2011, 06:20 PM
Y'know, I wonder if someone has already created and studied a theory like this. That'd be an interesting read. On the off chance nobody has, perhaps one day I will be the one to do so.
They have. I studied it a bit in health class a few years ago... which is why I said neither as well.

Unfortunately, I couldn't seem to find it on google. =/

JimJams
June 30th, 2011, 09:58 PM
People have points with that "why would you chose to be discriminated against" point. It's more accepted now so people can chose it but I think it's more of a fashion mentality. Oh I think this once, it's what I am. You can chose what to be in life.

No. Whenever people do that, they don't end up satisfied with their lives until they can accept that it's not something they are, but something they chose to appear as.
You can choose to appear gay, but you can't choose to be gay. If you actually are, then you were more than likely born that way.

Katja
June 30th, 2011, 10:16 PM
I'm pretty sure it's a choice. No I'm really sure it's a choice. You can't be born gay. As you grow up, you think to yourself, "I like teh men." And then it goes from there I guess.

JimJams
June 30th, 2011, 10:49 PM
But do you choose to feel that way first?

No.

Aquacorde
July 1st, 2011, 01:00 AM
I recently watched the documentary The Making of Me: John Barrowman (http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/292/john-barrowman-the-making-of-me.jsp) and- if I was not before- I'm now fairly confident that one is born homosexual or heterosexual.

JimJams
July 1st, 2011, 01:23 AM
I recently watched the documentary The Making of Me: John Barrowman (http://www.bbcamerica.com/content/292/john-barrowman-the-making-of-me.jsp) and- if I was not before- I'm now fairly confident that one is born homosexual or heterosexual.

I was actually thinking of that documentary earlier. It's excellent! :)

Shining Raichu
July 1st, 2011, 04:24 AM
I'm pretty sure it's a choice. No I'm really sure it's a choice. You can't be born gay. As you grow up, you think to yourself, "I like teh men." And then it goes from there I guess.

Right, that's exactly how it happened for me. I discovered that I "liked teh men." But the distinction must be made, the thought was not "I choose to like teh men."

------------

Honestly, I don't understand this. How many gay people have to post here saying "I DID NOT CHOOSE TO BE GAY" before people believe it? It's ridiculous, and it infuriates me. Do you think we're lying? Do you not think we know better? We're the ones living this out, we know the inner workings of it better than you ever will.

SO. Once more, with feeling:

Gay is not a choice. You do not choose to be gay. I did not choose to be gay. Sexuality is not a choice. Oh my God.

Was that clear enough?

Noah Ridgewood
July 1st, 2011, 04:54 AM
This has become a nice, extended discussion. So I'm going to be moving it to Other Chat.

Alley Cat
July 1st, 2011, 11:57 AM
I'm pretty sure it's a choice. No I'm really sure it's a choice. You can't be born gay. As you grow up, you think to yourself, "I like teh men." And then it goes from there I guess.
I'll say it again. Do you choose to be straight? No. You just are.
I'm gay. I look at a naked woman, I can't geta hard on. I don't feel anything. I look at a naked man, BAM! There I am. Ready. Do I choose to get a boner? No. Just that boobs and other female bits don't exactly make me pitch a tent.

But.. I could kiss a girl right now. I could have sex, and do whatever the hell I want to with her. But I wont feel something. I wont feel love, I won't feel a connection, and I won't even like it. But can I do it? Yes I can. Doing =/= Desire.

If you watch American Dad, you'll see my point. Stan tries to be gay, but it doesn't work, he doesn't feel anything, and doesn't like it. He's still straight.

Romantica
July 1st, 2011, 09:29 PM
I'll say it again. Do you choose to be straight? No.
This is basically the winning point in this discussion. If you can't remember the time you decided to be straight, someone that's gay wouldn't be able to tell you when they decided to prefer their own gender. It's as simple as that.

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 07:42 AM
^^ Exactly. The only reason people are believed to choose to be gay, is because the majority of people are straight. But.. if the majority of people were gay, then I'm sure that this discussion would be flipped, and that argument could be used for the straight people. It is just different, and that goes against human's natural survival instinct. Different has a chance to be better, and if you're better, then you will survive longer, so it's in our natural human instinct to take out the competition.

Drew
July 2nd, 2011, 11:46 AM
I'm going to agree with Alley Cat, Raichu, and some others.

Although, people keep saying that you can't be born gay, because "there's no gay gene".
but lol..

It's not a gene, it's something that fires in your brain, and your body that makes you attracted to the same gender. Likewise, there's a lack of that firing for people who are homosexual when they're around someone of the opposite gender. It's like how people explain kissing as fireworks going off, since it's feelings and reactions their body has when they're really attracted to whomever they're kissing. With straight people, that happens between a man a woman, with homosexuals, that happens only when both people are of the same gender. People who are bi can feel that with either gender, etc.

From a young age, before there even can be much influence for it in their lives at all, kids can start knowing whether they're attracted to guys or girls. This is before anything that could make it a choice even occurs, mind you.


Some people experience trauma that makes them fearful of the opposite gender, and so due to that fear, they might go against the grain and 'choose' to be homosexual, and that's sad for them, but that's a small percentage. For the most part, gays and lesbians don't choose to become something that makes them an outcast, or causes them depression, or choose something that makes them feel like they're letting their families down. For some, it might be a choice under circumstances that are (most of the time) unfortunate, but in general, we don't choose to be gay. In the same way that we can't suddenly choose to flip that around and become straight. It doesn't work.

G.U.Y.
July 2nd, 2011, 12:05 PM
If it was a choice it wouldn't occur in animals that can't choose.

Just saying.

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 12:15 PM
If it was a choice it wouldn't occur in animals that can't choose.

Just saying.

That's a very valid point. Agreed. I've seen it used before, and people try to discredit it because animals aren't humans. But, we have similarities, which is why we use them for testing when we don't want to spare human lives. I forgot about this though, thanks for bringing it up. Do you know any specific cases, though? Other than on Legally Blonde.. heh.

Romantica
July 2nd, 2011, 12:35 PM
^this was the best example I could think of (http://mblogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/06/05/gay-penguin-couple-become-parents-in-german-zoo/), alley cat. That article didn't mention that their story was made into a children's book, which is banned from some places (I forgot which exactly) for the mere fact that it's about homosexuality.

G.U.Y.
July 2nd, 2011, 12:50 PM
That's a very valid point. Agreed. I've seen it used before, and people try to discredit it because animals aren't humans. But, we have similarities, which is why we use them for testing when we don't want to spare human lives. I forgot about this though, thanks for bringing it up. Do you know any specific cases, though? Other than on Legally Blonde.. heh.

People say animals aren't humans as in animals screw whoever whenever. But what about birds? Birds (generally) have one partner their entire life (..unlike humans). Yet, homosexuality occurs in birds. The best examples of this are Bald Eagles, Penguins, and Vultures. There are other animal species that are just as (if not more) monogamous such as red-backed salamanders, prarie voles, and wolves.

Penguins and wolves though don't have the same partners their entire life. They just have on partner at a time (like humans.)

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 01:08 PM
I heard that once Penguins find their mate they stay together for life?

But that's a bit off-topic. I do believe though that this discussion is dying.
So....

In many countries in Africa, homosexuality is only illegal for males, what difference is this?

RHIOneAlbum
July 2nd, 2011, 01:17 PM
I think that you are equal no matter what, and that "gay" shouldn't mean homosexual, but since it's so prominent as an insult, it can continue to be an insult, not meaning homosexual though

I myself are asexual, and I get absolute hell from straights saying that I haven't met the right person... Like seriously, they don't know me. Also, Christian, Muslim, and Jewish religions don't believe in it. Reformed Judaism and I'm sure some versions of Christianity and Islam approve, but for the most part, it's death penalty. (Saudi Arabia is an example)

Why can't people focus on other things than sexuality... Seems as if lives are ran by sexual relationships in many people I've met. I don't know anybody other than myself who could live without ever hearing about all of it. Its ANNOYING and SAD that people are ran by their desire to get a gf/bf and crack jokes about it. I haven't heard a FUNNY JOKE in a long time tat didn't involve sexuality -_-

FreakyLocz14
July 2nd, 2011, 01:54 PM
I was raised Catholic and to believe that homosexuality was wrong. I had never met an actual homosexual (that I knew of). I was expecting the men to be stereotypical effeminate types. The first one I met in 6th grade was not that at all. He was that gangster type.

Winter Wonderland
July 2nd, 2011, 02:08 PM
In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.

Response
I fail to see what's so wrong about it. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just a matter of love. Which, really, shouldn't cause this much hate. Why would it be a disorder to love someone that just happens to be the same gender as you? Furthermore, why should it matter to you, in any way, who someone loves. Gay people might think being straight is a mental disorder, and you'd damn them to hell for it. Also, if you haven't really done any research on it, why would you comment saying such a controversial thing? You're not having an opinion. You're just being really close-minded and stuck in the dark ages.

Some thoughts
A lot of people think one thing wrong with being gay is you can't create babies. A majority of human beings will never have sex to create babies. I for one, will never have sex with any boyfriend I have to create a child. I would only do it out of pleasure. People who are gay are completely normal. Sex is an abnormal thing. And the way people decide to do it is their business, not yours, and it's rather silly for you to judge someone based on who they want to kiss and marry.

Choice

On the subject of choice, there's simply no discussion to be had about it. The only people who would choose a lifestyle that leads to the loss of friends, depression, alienation, suicide, and hate is a masochistic person. Thinking logically, the only choices a gay person can make about being gay are

To hide it
To show it
To be proud
To be ashamed
So, as you can see, the choices of being gay are EXTREMELY limited. To be quite honest with all of you, I'm a straight person, but I have a few gay friends and it sickens me to my very core if they're mistreated for their sexuality.

The really gay scenario
Let's try a bit of role reversal. If the "normal" sexuality was homosexuality, and you were straight, how would you feel? You're a minority, you're discriminated against, you lose friends constantly 'cause they think you wanna boink them. We, as children, learned the golden rule, correct? Treat others how you want others to treat you. With that being said, would you want people to think you were diseased? Would you honestly want people to hate you for liking someone of the opposite gender? Think about it; the world hates you, according to most religions(since the role was reversed), you have a seat waiting for you in eternal hell, and everywhere you go, there will be hate crimes against your kind. Sounds like hell, right? Sounds like you're being used to release anger. No one wants to be treated that way. Why anyone on this Earth would think it's alright to alienate someone the way people have alienated homosexuals, the jewish in the past, africans, is beyond me. Worst of all, you didn't choose to be this way, it just happened. And the only thing you can do is hide it or be proud. If nothing else, take a lesson of common courtesy and treat others how you would like to be treated.

The awkward truth
All-in-all, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality. Whether you believe so or not, just break it down logically, and you'll see that there isn't. It's just another thing that happens in nature such as retardation, genius, different color pigmentation, and so on. Anywho, that's my thoughts on it.

Full Metal
July 2nd, 2011, 02:17 PM
yPvVnrV1tow
I'd say Louis C.K. sums it up pretty well ( ... ) .
People seriously need to quit being judgmental. :\
IDK. I haven't had an attraction to other guys, so I don't think I was born that way. If it's not that we're born that way, and it is a choice, then I don't plan on choosing it because I'm happily off the market with my girlfriend. But I mean, I have a friend who is gay and he seemed very curious about other guys. So, there's something to be said for both sides of the argument ( "choosing" to be gay, or "born that way" ). Regardless, I still think Louis C.K. sums it up pretty well. haha. :)

G.U.Y.
July 2nd, 2011, 02:35 PM
In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.
So..let me get this straight. You have done absolutely no research on the subject, yet you still come up with a completely bigoted and hateful rational against homosexuality, then when people try to give you information (such as how every psychology-based assosiation and profession agrees nearly unanimously that homosexuality is NOT a mental disorder) you ignore it.

http://c.cslacker.com/cache/t/1/7/6375.png
I think it's a choice due to your surroundings


:t354:TG
..That's a completely contradicting statement. People farther south are tan because of their surroundings (i.e. more sunlight). So they chose to be tan?
People have points with that "why would you chose to be discriminated against" point. It's more accepted now so people can chose it but I think it's more of a fashion mentality. Oh I think this once, it's what I am. You can chose what to be in life.
In the words of the great Kathy Griffin;

"Were you born a bigot or did you grow into one?"

Shining Raichu
July 2nd, 2011, 05:13 PM
What I really don't understand is why this is open to discussion. People saying things like "it's a choice in my opinion." I'm sorry, your opinion? This isn't something people get to have opinions on. This is not like abortion or even same-sex marriage where people's views do matter. This is a simple statement of fact:

Gay is not a choice.

This is not something where it's appropriate to say "No, I don't think so. That's not true, in my opinion." Unless you yourself are gay, you do not get a vote. You do not get to have a contrary opinion. And the gay people - the ones who this is actually concerning - are all pretty unanimous in saying that it's not something you choose. So what else is there to debate?

So..let me get this straight. You have done absolutely no research on the subject, yet you still come up with a completely bigoted and hateful rational against homosexuality, then when people try to give you information (such as how every psychology-based assosiation and profession agrees nearly unanimously that homosexuality is NOT a mental disorder) you ignore it.

Well if it's a mental disorder, it's the best one I've ever had ;) I didn't choose this but I certainly enjoy it lol

seeker
July 2nd, 2011, 05:48 PM
I honestly don't see why there is such a lack of tolerance when it comes to the homosexual community. So a person is attracted to members of the same sex, so what? I prefer brunettes to blonds, that doesn't give someone the right to discriminate against me, nor does it make my preferences incorrect. Human emotions and preferences are shaped by nature, and grow upon the nature of their nurture.

In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.
I really had to bite my lip on that one. I don't think you can say something is wrong and classify it as a "mental disorder" if you have also noted that you've not done your research.

I simply think people wallow too much in the traditional, gender roles have been changing over the decades. This is 2011, not the dawn of mankind where women were merely child bearers within their caves while the men played the role of hunter-gatherers. It is quite secluded and short sighted for anyone to simply think homosexuality is a wrong thing, it's just another term much like heterosexuality, and who knows, in 50 years, the majority of people could be homosexual.

In the sense of reproduction, homosexuality is obviously going to be counter productive, but other than that, what issues can there possibly be? I don't think the masses are very concerned with birth rates, so there shouldn't be objection to it, in my eyes. It's simply a built in attraction, which cannot be justly classified as being "wrong". From a completely secular view of course.

Patatas Fritas
July 2nd, 2011, 06:12 PM
It is NOT a CHOICE it will NEVER be a CHOICE.
You are BORN gay, it's an UNCHANGEABLE aspect of your GENES and due to circumstances in the WOMB. The very thought that any sane person would choose to lead a life where so many people hate them just for being attracted to the same sex is absurd, my cousin is a lesbian and I can safely say that she did NOT CHOOSE to be attracted to women, and the stereotypical signs of being homosexual where there from a very YOUNG age, which backs up the whole being born gay thing. While I agree you do not know your sexuality until you hit puberty and the hormone rush begins but there are generally going to be signs of it beforehand.

So yeah, if you tl;dr this I'm basically saying:
It's >NOT< a >CHOICE< -- You >ARE BORN GAY<

FreakyLocz14
July 2nd, 2011, 06:59 PM
Idk what causes homosexuality, but I'm not comfortable saying that one is born that way without conclusive, peer-reviewed, scientific evidence that has achieved a general consensus among the scientific community.

Zet
July 2nd, 2011, 07:52 PM
Idk what causes homosexuality, but I'm not comfortable saying that one is born that way without conclusive, peer-reviewed, scientific evidence that has achieved a general consensus among the scientific community.

I'm guessing you don't know about the gay gene then.

FreakyLocz14
July 2nd, 2011, 07:59 PM
I'm guessing you don't know about the gay gene then.

I've heard of it, but it's not up to the standard of "a general consensus within the scientific community". i.e. it's disputed that such a gene exists.

G.U.Y.
July 2nd, 2011, 08:02 PM
Idk what causes homosexuality, but I'm not comfortable saying that one is born that way without conclusive, peer-reviewed, scientific evidence that has achieved a general consensus among the scientific community.

There's tons of medical and psychological evidence of homosexuality being caused by genetic factors. They're not inherited, everyone has the genes that causes it. It's just whether or not their expressed and how they're expressed. Here (http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene) is one article about it, there are many others regarding many different studies.

Marilynasol
July 2nd, 2011, 08:12 PM
Wow, there are some many obnoxious trolls on the prowl here...

Homosexuality, I believe, is really a combination of both nature (genetics) and nurture (environment), though I think genetics are more prominent.

Being biased towards somebody with a socially-unconventional orientation is like being biased against somebody who's parents divorced. They really have no say in the matter and there really isn't anybody to blame.

FreakyLocz14
July 2nd, 2011, 08:15 PM
There's tons of medical and psychological evidence of homosexuality being caused by genetic factors. They're not inherited, everyone has the genes that causes it. It's just whether or not their expressed and how they're expressed. Here (http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene) is one article about it, there are many others regarding many different studies.

I know it's not a choice, but there are those who believe that someone's environment can affect one's sexual orientation.

A plethora of studies have also been done on lie detector tests, yet that doesn't change that fact that it's reliability is shaky at best.

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 08:24 PM
It isn't a choice. You are born that way, or something makes you go that way. Honestly, I think that something could in effect cause someone to turn a straight man or woman homosexual, or a gay man or woman straight. Maybe when they're developing, or due to some kind of trauma, but I'm not willing to put it past that. Unless there is actually a gay gene, then I think this is true.

You might not be born gay. That's what I believe. But, it isn't a choice. If it was people like Seth Walsh wouldn't have killed themselves over being bullied and teased. They got some of the worst of it, and after do you think that they'd still choose to be gay? Doubt it. There was this one gay guy who going through school, people would beat the crap out of him, push him in urinals, and molest him because he was gay. Do you still think that he'd choose to live a life like that? I don't.

I'm not saying you're born that way, I'm not saying I know what causes it. But what I can say for 100% ascertainment, being gay is NOT a choice. Have a nice day.

As for what causes it, that's one of those questions that I don't much care about the answer to. We're here, we're queer, get used to it. I hope people don't find out the answer, because this might be the end of the Gay community as we know it if they can stop it. Make it so the child comes out straight. Which I believe would be inhuman and shouldn't be done.

Stormbringer
July 2nd, 2011, 08:26 PM
I know it's not a choice, but there are those who believe that someone's environment can affect one's sexual orientation.

A plethora of studies have also been done on lie detector tests, yet that doesn't change that fact that it's reliability is shaky at best.

What does a lie detector test have to do with anything related to this thread?

Zet
July 2nd, 2011, 08:29 PM
Just so you guys know, a child with two parents of the same sex are more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual. With that said, environment has a minimum effect at all.

I've heard of it, but it's not up to the standard of "a general consensus within the scientific community". i.e. it's disputed that such a gene exists.
Science is a bunch of theories, there's no proven fact. We only accept it as truth because no one has came up with another idea.

FreakyLocz14
July 2nd, 2011, 08:38 PM
Just so you guys know, a child with two parents of the same sex are more likely to be heterosexual than homosexual. With that said, environment has a minimum effect at all.

A child in an opposite-sex household also has a higher chance of being heterosexual than homosexual.

Myles
July 2nd, 2011, 09:18 PM
I go by the current majority view in the scientific community. As I usually do if that particular branch of science isn't my main branch. That is that sexuality is a spectrum: you can be straight, bisexual with a straight lean, 'true' bisexual, bisexual with a homosexual lean or homosexual. And that it isn't entirely pre-birth determined, but is affected by a large variety of things, including both genetics and culture/upbringing.

That doesn't mean that it can be changed; all attempts to do that have failed. And it most certainly isn't a mental disorder. It's also not a choice, but it can be influeced by choice (e.g. someone who is bisexual could choose to live a straight life for religious reasons or because they are afraid of stigma). If it was entirely genetics without room for bisexuality, it would have been bred out through evolution for obvious reasons.

Science is a bunch of theories, there's no proven fact. We only accept it as truth because no one has came up with another idea.

Scientific theories and theories are not the same thing. Someone 'coming up' with an idea doesn't get rid of scientific theories. That's a hypothesis. That statement is kind of offensive to science. Although the person you were replying to is wrong, there is scientific reason to believe sexuality is at least partiality genetic.

Gay is not a choice.

This is not something where it's appropriate to say "No, I don't think so. That's not true, in my opinion." Unless you yourself are gay, you do not get a vote.

As much as I agree with you that homosexuality is not a choice. Straight people do get a say in the matter just as much as gay people. Such things should be based on scientific evidence, not just personal experience.

Zet
July 2nd, 2011, 10:46 PM
A child in an opposite-sex household also has a higher chance of being heterosexual than homosexual.
Who ever said that is full of crap.

Scientific theories and theories are not the same thing. Someone 'coming up' with an idea doesn't get rid of scientific theories. That's a hypothesis. That statement is kind of offensive to science. Although the person you were replying to is wrong, there is scientific reason to believe sexuality is at least partiality genetic.
Yes, all scientific theories are an hypothesis.

Shining Raichu
July 2nd, 2011, 10:51 PM
As much as I agree with you that homosexuality is not a choice. Straight people do get a say in the matter just as much as gay people. Such things should be based on scientific evidence, not just personal experience.

Anybody can have a vote in what causes homosexuality; whether it's genetics or environment, nature or nurture. That's not what I was talking about.

I was addressing specifically the people who say that homosexuality is a choice. This has nothing to do with the scientific aspects of the debate, and the only evidence needed is for gay people to say "I did not choose to be gay". As far as the "whether it is a choice" argument is concerned, nobody's opinions matter except the gay people themselves.

Chibi Robo
July 2nd, 2011, 10:58 PM
It seriously pointless to post your own opinion in threads like these especially if it is contradictory of what is expected for an answer. You know what you want to hear, so why make or even post in the thread. Just to stay relevant, I believe gay is a choice. Its good to have an open opinion on a subject like this and the confidence to go against the norm. Now isnt it (:

marz
July 2nd, 2011, 11:20 PM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 11:25 PM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

I get what your saying there. But what I do know that I'm right about is that being gay is not a choice. And the only reason that I know that is because I'm gay. It'd be like if birds could talk, they'd be able to explain every detail of why the fly in V formation and etc.

Nameless.
July 2nd, 2011, 11:26 PM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.I have another way to put this after reading through the posts for a while.

The fact that gays demean everyone else's opinion who isn't gay that opposes simply because they aren't gay.

And the only reason that I know that is because I'm gay. It'd be like if birds could talk, they'd be able to explain every detail of why the fly in V formation and etc.

However, humans can explain with ease why birds fly in V formation. They aren't birds. How are they able to explain it? Observation. :]

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 11:37 PM
However, humans can explain with ease why birds fly in V formation. They aren't birds. How are they able to explain it? Observation. :]

We can make observations, formulate hypotheses and test them, but that can only get us so far. Like, whats the point of switching leaders? How does the whole group notice when one bird starts to take the lead in a slightly different direction? Those are things that we can't ever know the answer to.

&& Assume were wrong on the birds flight patterns and etc. All it would take is one bird to tell us otherwise. I'm proud of my life, and given the choice to stay gay, I would choose to stay gay. But I know, that in the beginning, I was afraid to come out and wished that I wasn't gay, and didn't think of my best friend as more than a best friend. I wanted to be normal. But then.. I realized.. I am.

Alli
July 2nd, 2011, 11:38 PM
I get what your saying there. But what I do know that I'm right about is that being gay is not a choice. And the only reason that I know that is because I'm gay. It'd be like if birds could talk, they'd be able to explain every detail of why the fly in V formation and etc.

So because I'm not a certain orientation, I can't understand how it works? I can't empathize? I can't observe? I also want to point out that you don't know where everyone's been. The heterosexuals replying to this thread...you know, there are questions in their sexuality too. They go through it. They experiment. Straight people are not all ignorant. Just because you have experience in a certain thing doesn't mean you know more than someone else. You'll definitely have a different view and perception because of your experience, but you can't rule out what other people think because they're not gay or they haven't had that experience. And then I go back to my point before. You don't know where everyone's been. I don't know where you've been, you don't know where I've been. Maybe I do understand what it's like to be homosexual. Maybe anyone else here does. You just don't know.

I agree with Penatrait and Nameless in their other posts I'm too lazy to quote.

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 11:47 PM
If it came off as me calling straights ignorant/not being able to have insight on the subject, that isn't what I intended. Because they can, they do, and they will. I know straight people who have questioned their sexuality.. so I know that's possible too. There just a slight difference between being gay, and being curious. If being gay is a choice, then it is certainly not one that I would have made when I discovered that I was gay. Maybe now I would make it, but certainly not back then.

for me, at least, being gay has not been a choice. for others, it might be different. but for me, and everyone that i know personally, being gay has not been choice. i have not met single person who has chosen to be gay.

and now i need to get some sleep so i can be careful as not to offend people. && again, sorry for offense dealt.

Myles
July 2nd, 2011, 11:51 PM
If you believe that gay and straight people are equals than how can one intrinsically know that it's a matter of choice more than the other?

"Did the X person choose to be X or was it due to their genetics and upbringing?"

X could be gay or straight. Birds may not know why they fly in a V formation, we don't know why we yawn.

Alley Cat
July 2nd, 2011, 11:56 PM
If you believe that gay and straight people are equals than how can one intrinsically know that it's a matter of choice more than the other?

"Did the X person choose to be X or was it due to their genetics and upbringing?"

X could be gay or straight. Birds may not know why they fly in a V formation, we don't know why we yawn.

True that. It's just.. why would anyone choose a lifestyle will people automatically hate them, form prejudice against, and go out of their way to torment? That's what I don't get. Not to mention also the fact that animals have gay habits too.

Myles
July 2nd, 2011, 11:58 PM
True that. It's just.. why would anyone choose a lifestyle will people automatically hate them, form prejudice against, and go out of their way to torment? That's what I don't get. Not to mention also the fact that animals have gay habits too.

Exactly though. The reasons (e.g. that, but they are more scientific studies, such as identical twins being more likely to share sexualities) we know it's not a choice can be understood equally between people of all sexualities.

Alley Cat
July 3rd, 2011, 12:01 AM
That's true, and I never said that they couldn't. I was merely saying that the only reason I, personally, figured it out as a choice because I was gay.

Drew
July 3rd, 2011, 12:23 AM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

You have a point. xD

But still.. people going against the fact that being gay is a choice, when plenty of people who are gay are stressing that it's not a choice.. >_>

You can't really know the complete truth, nor what it's like unless you are gay.
You can't totally know what it's like be transgender, unless you are.
You can't fully know what it's like to ride in an airplane, unless you have before.

People who are heterosexual can learn, and sympathize, and study, and befriend, and guess, explore their own orientations, but unless they really are fully homosexual.. they can't be completely certain enough about it to judge it 100 percent. They can't fully know what goes on inside the minds of people in the LGBT group to know it's not a choice, just like people in said group can't know exactly what it's like to be straight.

Shining Raichu
July 3rd, 2011, 12:54 AM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

Well yeah, doesn't that stand to reason?

How obnoxious is it for a straight person to say that homosexuality is a choice, when gay people - who actually know - are assuring everybody that it is not? How do straight people think they know better than we do? It's ridiculous. We know for a fact that it is not a choice because we are gay. How is it OK for someone to express an opposing opinion on that when this isn't even a matter of opinion?

Of course we are right. And of course it is simply because we are gay. And yeah, one does define the other - but the fact that being straight is not a choice never seems to come under public scrutiny.

I'm not saying that heterosexual people are stupid or ignorant about gay people. This isn't a world of Straight Vs. Gay. But yeah, the ones who say that homosexuality is a choice are clearly both. And they're clearly not listening.

If this were a subject about whether homosexuality was caused by nature or nurture, then that's fine. That's still a matter of opinion until science can 100% prove it one way or the other, and can be speculated upon until the cows come home. But never approach me or any other gay person and tell them that this is a choice they made. Because that is incorrect.

Also, what Drew said. Cos Drew said basically what I wanted to but nicer lol

Ctrl.Alt.Geak
July 3rd, 2011, 01:37 AM
Heh.. This is... Well it's an eye opener.

Being transgender my opinion is byast, because obviously a common argument is I'm a gay man who wants to get with straight men. That's completley untrue mind, but this isn't about me, it's about whether being gay is a choice.

It is NOT a CHOICE it will NEVER be a CHOICE.
You are BORN gay, it's an UNCHANGEABLE aspect of your GENES and due to circumstances in the WOMB. The very thought that any sane person would choose to lead a life where so many people hate them just for being attracted to the same sex is absurd, my cousin is a lesbian and I can safely say that she did NOT CHOOSE to be attracted to women, and the stereotypical signs of being homosexual where there from a very YOUNG age, which backs up the whole being born gay thing. While I agree you do not know your sexuality until you hit puberty and the hormone rush begins but there are generally going to be signs of it beforehand.

So yeah, if you tl;dr this I'm basically saying:
It's >NOT< a >CHOICE< -- You >ARE BORN GAY<
You said it better than I ever could! Finally someone understands that this is a process that starts in the womb (that involves the mother not being able to produce the right amount of hormones around the 3 month mark, correct?). It makes me so glad to see someone who agrees with me on this.

Myles
July 3rd, 2011, 01:39 AM
but the fact that being straight is not a choice never seems to come under public scrutiny.

Well technically by saying that homosexuality is a choice, they're saying that being straight is too. And by us saying it isn't, means that we're saying that it isn't a choice. Since (other than bisexuality, asexuality, pansexuality, whatever) that's the only other option.

Shining Raichu
July 3rd, 2011, 02:04 AM
Well technically by saying that homosexuality is a choice, they're saying that being straight is too. And by us saying it isn't, means that we're saying that it isn't a choice. Since (other than bisexuality, asexuality, pansexuality, whatever) that's the only other option.

Precisely lol. So isn't it interesting that it's only the straight people who seem to be under the impression that any sexuality could be a choice?

FreakyLocz14
July 3rd, 2011, 02:29 AM
Well technically by saying that homosexuality is a choice, they're saying that being straight is too. And by us saying it isn't, means that we're saying that it isn't a choice. Since (other than bisexuality, asexuality, pansexuality, whatever) that's the only other option.

That is a logical fallacy. You are saying that if A is caused by B, then C must also be caused by B.

Homosexuality =/= Heterosexuality, so if homosexuality is caused by choice, birth, environment, etc., it does not necessarily mean that heterosexuality is caused by the same thing(s).

twistedpuppy
July 3rd, 2011, 02:53 AM
That is a logical fallacy. You are saying that if A is caused by B, then C must also be caused by B.

Homosexuality =/= Heterosexuality, so if homosexuality is caused by choice, birth, environment, etc., it does not necessarily mean that heterosexuality is caused by the same thing(s).

A, B, & C are different, but they're all letters. Just as heterosexuality & homosexuality are different, but they fall under human sexuality.

I may get in trouble for saying this, but I believe homosexuality can be a "choice". And like Myles stated before heterosexuality can be a "choice" as well. We see it all the time when a homosexual man or woman "chooses" to lead a heterosexual lifestyle to assimilate with what society considers the "norm". Of course this doesn't mean they all enjoy the lifestyle they choose. Many times these people revert back to the way the they were hardwired simply because they were unhappy with the "choice" they made.

My point is all forms of human sexuality can be a "choice", but they're an individuals choice. It doesn't speak for the entire majority.

Shining Raichu
July 3rd, 2011, 03:29 AM
I may get in trouble for saying this, but I believe homosexuality can be a choice. And like Myles stated before heterosexuality can be a choice as well. We see it all the time when a homosexual man or woman chooses to lead a heterosexual lifestyle to assimilate with what society considers the "norm". Oh course this doesn't mean they all enjoy the lifestyle they choose. Many times these people revert back to the way the they were hardwired simply because they were unhappy with the choice they made.

My point is all forms of human sexuality can be a choice, but they're an individuals choice. It doesn't speak for the entire majority.

Just because someone chooses to live heterosexually that doesn't mean they are heterosexual. They are choosing to live a certain way, but the sexuality itself is encoded into the brain. It's not choosing a sexuality, it's ignoring it.

twistedpuppy
July 3rd, 2011, 03:39 AM
Just because someone chooses to live heterosexually that doesn't mean they are heterosexual. They are choosing to live a certain way, but the sexuality itself is encoded into the brain. It's not choosing a sexuality, it's ignoring it.

That's what I said, but worded differently. I guess I should have added quotation marks on the word choice. But to be clear up my point, yes they're not changing the way they're hardwired. They're just ignoring it.

Myles
July 3rd, 2011, 04:07 AM
That is a logical fallacy. You are saying that if A is caused by B, then C must also be caused by B.

Homosexuality =/= Heterosexuality, so if homosexuality is caused by choice, birth, environment, etc., it does not necessarily mean that heterosexuality is caused by the same thing(s).

No, I'm saying that when people talk about homosexuality being a choice, to them, they think heterosexuality is the 'default' (and likely don't even acknowledge the existence of other sexualities), so by saying that someone 'chose' to be homosexual rather than heterosexual, they're saying that if they didn't make that choice they would be heterosexual, thus they're 'choosing' to not be heterosexual, hence they think heterosexuality is a choice.

I don't see the logical fallacy.

Precisely lol. So isn't it interesting that it's only the straight people who seem to be under the impression that any sexuality could be a choice?

It's likely caused by the fact that people that share that point of view usually have it because they're badly educated about sexuality or are prejudice; both of which are more common in straight people. Also some could be naturally inclined to homosexuality but oppress it; which could make them think it's a choice even worse. (I say 'naturally inclined' because I think people should be referred to as what they want to be referred to, similar to gender).

FreakyLocz14
July 3rd, 2011, 04:43 AM
No, I'm saying that when people talk about homosexuality being a choice, to them, they think heterosexuality is the 'default' (and likely don't even acknowledge the existence of other sexualities), so by saying that someone 'chose' to be homosexual rather than heterosexual, they're saying that if they didn't make that choice they would be heterosexual, thus they're 'choosing' to not be heterosexual, hence they think heterosexuality is a choice.

I don't see the logical fallacy.
If heterosexuality is a choice, then nobody could be that by default. Your logic isn't making sense now.

Azonic
July 3rd, 2011, 07:43 AM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

Ehh... I *sort of* disagree but not really maybe. idk. but the LGBT community in general more rejected by society. Their insecurities about their orientation tend to lead them to do more extensive research on the topic. Most straights don't even bother with research and don't care because this issue doesn't apply to them, since they are the supposed "normal ones". The straights that do accept new research tend to agree that being gay isn't a choice.

Gays have more experience with the topic because they are the ones who are rejected and often try to turn straight, but can't. Straights never want to turn gay, so they don't really have experience with this topic. You know?

There has been scientific research on this topic, I'm sure. Some chromosomes are linked to orientation and a bunch of other stuff. i cbf'd to look it up though. It's not 100% proven but there's a strong correlation.

However whether you're born gay or certain factors affect you while growing up, all I can say is that it isn't a choice.

lolololol so many born this way references. praise godga.

Full Metal
July 3rd, 2011, 10:33 AM
^ Well written, did you write it? (:
I'm fairly certain it's not a conscious choice.
It might be a sub-conscious choice?
Who knows.
But in honesty, why does it matter?
IF somebody is gay (gay.isaChoice)? then it is their choice : then that's who they are
-- and you need to respect that. ( lookup the ? operator in any decent language to know what the above sentence means. :P )

Nameless.
July 3rd, 2011, 05:37 PM
Well yeah, doesn't that stand to reason?

How obnoxious is it for a straight person to say that homosexuality is a choice, when gay people - who actually know - are assuring everybody that it is not? How do straight people think they know better than we do? It's ridiculous. We know for a fact that it is not a choice because we are gay. How is it OK for someone to express an opposing opinion on that when this isn't even a matter of opinion?
It's not a matter of knowing better than those who are homosexual. It's the fact that we have an opinion and a view of our very own that we perceive homosexuality in. If there was no such thing as opinion on this subject, this topic would already be closed. I'm not meaning to offend, so I apologize if I have or if I do in the future. It's not my intention. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality... no matter which you are, there will always be views for each from a different side that may or may not be the truth in the carrier's eyes. You know who you are, what you are, and where you're going, but that doesn't mean everyone else will understand. This is a topic made to discuss the two ideas of how homosexuality may work, and possibly every other sexuality as well given the chance. And honestly many of the heterosexuals here, I'm sure, have been down the other road before when they were growing up.

This was stated to back up Syd's claim on how many of us don't have a completely untouched sexuality that has never changed.

Doesn't this entitle them to speak their thoughts on the whole deal as well? They must have some clue if they were there once. Of course they aren't full-fledged as many of the posters here are, but they may have felt an attraction to someone of the same sex before as well. If a full-fledged heterosexual speaks out here, they also have entitlement to speaking their observation. I find that even if you may not have experience with it, you may have an interesting view to share. They may not have experience of their very own to back up their words, but they have eyes in their sockets, and ears on their head. They should be enabled to give their thoughts without getting shat all over. This mostly applies to those who aren't speaking with negative intent towards the homosexuals here. :P

Idk, those are my thoughts anyway.

Zet
July 3rd, 2011, 05:42 PM
If heterosexuality is a choice, then nobody could be that by default. Your logic isn't making sense now.

Just think about it for a second, if people can "choose" to be homosexual, then that means people can also "choose" to be heterosexual.

FreakyLocz14
July 3rd, 2011, 06:28 PM
Just think about it for a second, if people can "choose" to be homosexual, then that means people can also "choose" to be heterosexual.

I fail to see what brought you to that conclusion. Just because something is caused by something, it doesn't mean that the opposite is also caused by it.

Myles
July 3rd, 2011, 06:47 PM
I fail to see what brought you to that conclusion. Just because something is caused by something, it doesn't mean that the opposite is also caused by it.

That doesn't even make sense. If I choose not to do something, then I chose to not do that thing. :S

choice n.
1. An act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities
- the choice between good and evil

2. The right or ability to make, or possibility of making, such a selection
- I had to do it, I had no choice

3. A range of possibilities from which one or more may be selected
- you can have a sofa made to order in a choice of over forty fabrics

4. A course of action, thing, or person that is selected or decided upon
- this CD drive is the perfect choice for your computer

West the Hardcore Nerd
July 3rd, 2011, 07:22 PM
I can say, in a quite determined manner, that being gay/bi/whatever is certainly not a choice, or else I totally would be gay/bi/whatever. I have no idea how to talk to girls, and, as such, I'll never have a girlfriend, ergo, I wish I was into other dudes.

Scarlette
July 3rd, 2011, 08:34 PM
Born this way baby! I was born a straight Female, and proud!



and I never woke up and chosed to like men, or other things like men with muscles :P it just happens, and I beilve we all are just born attracted to the same, gender, diffent gender or both! :D

I dont get why people would think its a choice, when its in the animal kingdom, and people have been raised, by diffrent gender parents, same gender parents, and single parent homes, have had more male friends, more female friends and all can be eigther, also they have done studies on twins and sometimes one twim is gay and the other isnt and have both grown up in the same enviorment.

Why cant other people just relaxe and let others love and have the same respect?!


and for some of you calling it a mental disease and being disrepectful, whats gonna happen if maybe your child is LGBTQ?

Drew
July 3rd, 2011, 11:09 PM
^ That post is like.. /thread, in my opinion.

Though, the entire discussion in this thread will get roughly nowhere. :/ People who think it's a choice don't really seem to want to be swayed from thinking that, and the people who say it's not a choice won't drop that belief either. So what's the point? After pondering it, why does it matter? xD; I like debates like this well enough, but whether your straight or gay, or bi, etc, it's all just different ways that you can fall in love. We're all attracted to people differently, and we all fall in love differently. Love itself doesn't have to be so complicated.

I'm not about to close this thread, because discussion is on-going, buuut I'm done with it.
Just doesn't feel like it's moving.

It's not a choice, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it, and I'm out. xD

Buttered Coat
July 4th, 2011, 05:01 AM
I'm bisexual (pretty damn proud of it, too!) and I didn't just wake up one morning and go 'yeah, I think I'll give chicks a go today!' I sort of slowly realized it over time, and now that I think about it, I've probably always been attracted to girls as well as guys (you know, after the whole kiddy-crush stages XD). I know earlier I said it could be either a choice or you could be born that way but I guess I'm going to kind of prove myself wrong here.

The majority of my friends are bi/gay, and not a single one of them said 'I've decided to start liking girls now' (the majority of my friends are also females. the bi/gay guys obviously didn't say that :P) or anything of the sort. One of them is gay because she had really bad experiences with guys earlier in her life, but that's still not a choice. She just really started hating men.

I'm not saying heterosexual people don't know what they're talking about and gays do, but because it's been a personal experience for me, I can safely say it's certainly not a choice. Believe me, neither my friends nor I enjoy having 'stupid lesbians!' shouted at us down the corridors at school or just in the middle of the mall. Though it's honestly the worst 'insult' they can come up with, it gets pretty tiring after a while. However, just because my friends and I are used to it, it doesn't mean such insults don't give people absolute hell. whether it's true or not, being picked on like that is not a joyful experience, and if being gay was a choice, no one would be gay for the sake of not getting picked on.

So, to completely ignore my previous post, it is definitely not a choice to be homosexual.

Shining Raichu
July 4th, 2011, 05:19 AM
It's not a matter of knowing better than those who are homosexual. It's the fact that we have an opinion and a view of our very own that we perceive homosexuality in. If there was no such thing as opinion on this subject, this topic would already be closed. I'm not meaning to offend, so I apologize if I have or if I do in the future. It's not my intention. Homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality... no matter which you are, there will always be views for each from a different side that may or may not be the truth in the carrier's eyes. You know who you are, what you are, and where you're going, but that doesn't mean everyone else will understand. This is a topic made to discuss the two ideas of how homosexuality may work, and possibly every other sexuality as well given the chance. And honestly many of the heterosexuals here, I'm sure, have been down the other road before when they were growing up.

This was stated to back up Syd's claim on how many of us don't have a completely untouched sexuality that has never changed.

Doesn't this entitle them to speak their thoughts on the whole deal as well? They must have some clue if they were there once. Of course they aren't full-fledged as many of the posters here are, but they may have felt an attraction to someone of the same sex before as well. If a full-fledged heterosexual speaks out here, they also have entitlement to speaking their observation. I find that even if you may not have experience with it, you may have an interesting view to share. They may not have experience of their very own to back up their words, but they have eyes in their sockets, and ears on their head. They should be enabled to give their thoughts without getting shat all over. This mostly applies to those who aren't speaking with negative intent towards the homosexuals here. :P

Idk, those are my thoughts anyway.


You don't have to worry about offending me, it's all good :)

I still stand by what I said though. I'm not trying to denounce the rights of others to have opinions on things, and what causes specific sexualities is certainly up for debate. However what is clear is that it's not a choice. The people who are actually of these sexualities in question are basically screaming "IT'S NOT A CHOICE" yet others are still disagreeing. It feels very much like bashing your head against a wall when we turn the volume up to over 9000 and yet people still say "well actually I don't think that's true..." despite giving no other evidence than the fact that it's their opinion. It's as if we're being totally disregarded in a cloud of opinionation when the only evidence people need is sitting right in front of them. It's incredibly frustrating.

I do understand everything you're saying, but regardless I can't help but feel that this isn't a matter of opinion whatsoever. What causes sexualities, yes, but whether or not they are a choice, no.

I'm sticking to that. But I think this is the third time I've made a post basically rewording this same argument so this will probably be my last one because I don't want to feel like I'm spamming :P

Masqueraine
July 4th, 2011, 06:21 AM
You know what grinds my gears? The fact that gays think they're right about the subject simply because they are gay.

Well, despite it grinding your gears, I don't think it's too crazy for multiple gay people to tell you that they can't change this aspect about themselves and that it's not a choice, in a topic dealing with, um, homosexuality.

And if it bothers you that much then you can respond to this post that does no such thing. :) right down there VVVV

To expand on my earlier post, I don't think anybody can say for sure whether somebody is born gay or straight. That being said I strongly consider it. In the womb it has been proven in studies that the male fetus is viewed as an 'outsider' and so the body reacts to it with estrogen, which is why second born and so on sons have a higher chance of being gay, because as we have seen demonstrated through vaccines once a body is introduced to a foreign substance it has an easier time fighting it off. In the case of a human fetus it instills more feminine tendencies, such as homosexuality in males.

The idea that choosing to be a sexuality is like choosing your favorite color is a bit far fetched. Sexuality is an animalistic trait. You cannot mentally choose to change what makes your blood flow faster. Things like your favorite movie, color, and so on have to do with our higher intellectual capability. Animals don't see a color and prefer it the way we do, and they don't watch television and understand what's going on. Our intellectual capacity is always expanding and with it the things we like or prefer, due to these changes that take place.

So I'll have to disagree completely with Penetrait. People don't choose their sexuality, and if we could, I wouldn't be a lesbian. I'm trying to prove your theory right now but so far I still like a pretty lady.

So yeah, now you don't have to be grinded or whatevs.

If that's true, you'd have to also be straight to be right about being straight. But one defines the other. Problem?

Wut. Lol

I chose to be straight when I realized the two aspects of sexual attraction: Physical attraction, and emotional attraction. I can recognize good-looking boys, so that's half the problem solved there. Emotional attraction is no less harder to find, either. But I do not want to be emotionally attracted to any man, and therefore choose to be straight.

Good for you, maybe you're part of the exception. You're really not giving me enough to work with here to actually make a valid argument.

I can recognize good looking people regardless of gender as well, unfortunately I don't see what this does for your argument that sexuality is a choice. And your just being very technical and arbitrary about what making a choice really is, you said that you don't want to be emotionally attracted to a man, so you "choose" not to be with them. But anybody else would look at that as you not liking men. Unless you're bisexual, and are just choosing to prefer one out of two things that you already like, then it's most likely that you're just straight. You didn't choose that, bro.. and if you did were you gay first?

And when you say that you've "chosen" not to be emotionally attached to a man, does that mean you're physically attracted to them? If so then it sounds more to me like you're gay but don't accept that part of yourself, which would make sense with your statement that you won't allow yourself to be emotionally attached to a guy.

And I don't think he's part of the exception, looking at this thread he seems to be a part of the vast majority. XD



You have a point. xD

But still.. people going against the fact that being gay is a choice, when plenty of people who are gay are stressing that it's not a choice.. >_>

You can't really know the complete truth, nor what it's like unless you are gay.
You can't totally know what it's like be transgender, unless you are.
You can't fully know what it's like to ride in an airplane, unless you have before.

People who are heterosexual can learn, and sympathize, and study, and befriend, and guess, explore their own orientations, but unless they really are fully homosexual.. they can't be completely certain enough about it to judge it 100 percent. They can't fully know what goes on inside the minds of people in the LGBT group to know it's not a choice, just like people in said group can't know exactly what it's like to be straight.
This is a good post imo. :)

Just think about it for a second, if people can "choose" to be homosexual, then that means people can also "choose" to be heterosexual.

You can only choose to be something when you're something else to begin with. If you grew up heterosexual you never chose to be heterosexual, because you were never gay to begin with. Likewise with gay people, as demonstrated by everybody in this thread.

Azonic
July 4th, 2011, 09:32 AM
I chose to be straight when I realized the two aspects of sexual attraction: Physical attraction, and emotional attraction. I can recognize good-looking boys, so that's half the problem solved there. It's true that physical and emotional attraction differ. There are many people who are sexually interested in one gender, romantically interested in another (homo/heteromantic / homo/heterosexual).

Not completely convinced by your story though. I mean, recognizing good-looking boys doesn't mean that you get the same sexual stimulation from them. Gay men can recognize a beautiful or hot girl, but they won't get the same sexual stimulation from looking at a hot guy.

Emotional attraction is no less harder to find, either. But I do not want to be emotionally attracted to any man, and therefore choose to be straight.I'm just not convinced it works like that. What you want to like is not always what you actually DO like. For all we know, you very well could be capable of being emotionally attracted to a man but just avoid that circumstance. I think if you're capable of being emotionally attracted to the same sex in a sexual way, then it does make you bi/homosexual (or at least -romantic)

My colour analogy works just fine. Colour and who you love are the exact same thing when you break it down to what it is, and for that, I redirect you back to my original post.I dunno. I love the color blue but I don't get boners from looking at it.

I do think sexuality is fluid to some extent. Many people, like bisexuals, report having occasional gay days or straight days in which they just lean towards one gender more than usual. It's limited, not like you can go from Kinsey 6 to Kinsey 0.

Anyways I doubt you can choose what things you like. Perhaps it changes slightly over time, who knows, but I definitely don't think its a conscious decision. If it was, then I could shove bird poop down my throat and say that it was my favorite taste ever.

http://fotpforums.com/images/smilies/6qjx4w.jpg

Noah Ridgewood
July 4th, 2011, 11:19 AM
As I said earlier, I believe the only choice someone has on their sexuality is whether they accept being gay or not.

But regarding the opinions mattering and whatnot argument that's going on with a few other people... think of it this way. You have been having chronic headaches for the past few months that come and go every other day. You don't know what the cause is for them, but you want to find out. Who are you going to go to and trust what they're telling you? You're going to go to your doctor. If you're worried, you're going to ask people you know what they think is causing it, but you won't know for certain what the cause is until you go to a doctor.

Relating this example to our discussion, you can ask what other people think where homosexuality comes from (born this way vs choice, in this case), and you can gather their opinions, but the only people who will be able to tell you for certain are people who have experience in this. The only people who truly have experience in this argument are gay people. I say that simply because I know of a lot of girls (specifically) that "go gay" because the men that they've been with have all done them wrong in the past. Does that make them gay? No. They're still going to find men sexually attractive compared to women. They're opening themselves up to another sex. Not because of the sexual orientation, but because of the emotional attachment that they could get with a woman that they never had the ability to find with a man. People think that this automatically changes their sexual orientation, but it doesn't. "Going gay" doesn't affect someone's sexual orientation.

As someone who believes that anyone has the ability to fall in love with anyone, regardless of sexual orientation, I can't change the fact that I find legs to be the most appealing aspect when compared to breasts or butts on a woman just as I can't change the fact that I find a toned stomach (not necessarily abs) to be something that are really attractive on anyone. Suggesting that someone's sexuality is a choice is like suggesting that you can make the choice of trying an exotic food of being good or bad. You taste it, and you like it or you don't. You don't decide whether you like it. As such, if you don't actually like it, you can't make the choice to suddenly like it then have another taste and find it the be the most delicious thing you've ever eaten.

I don't think the people who are saying "I'm gay. I'm telling you that this isn't a choice." are trying to disprove your ability to formulate and express your opinion. They're just telling you that this is how it is as someone who's experienced what it's like to actually be gay. They're a lot more qualified to be able to give you a straight, sure-fire educated answer than someone who hasn't experienced it. Anyone can have an opinion. An opinion is "a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." You can have your opinion, and believe what you want to believe, but the only people who know the answer are people who have experienced it. Obviously, the only people who can experience actually being gay are gay people. A straight woman can experiment with women all she'd like. She may like it, she may not. But she can't change their sexuality from being straight to gay by just being intimate with a woman. She's still going to find the men sexually appealing. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but arguing that opinion as fact against people who have experienced being gay and know that it isn't a choice isn't exactly progressive.

You can make the choice to limit yourself to the sex that you're sexually attracted to. You can make the choice of whether or not you want to be with someone, whether you find them sexually desirable or not. You can make the choice to experiment. But when it comes to sexuality in itself, you can't make the choice of being attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex. If you could, then all you would have to do is decide that you are now going to like the same sex sexually, and then suddenly you like them. That isn't how it works. Have any of you that are saying that it's a choice actually have sat there one day and have tried to make the choice of the sex you find sexually appealing? Sure, you may believe that, but have you experienced the moment of making the choice to find men or women (or both) sexually appealing? Did you look at a woman/man and decided "I'm really turned on by her/him!!" There's just a natural reaction in your body that gets you hot when you see someone sexually gratifying. You don't decide it.

Sexuality relates to sexual feelings. And just as you don't decide on the emotion you're feeling, you don't decide your sexuality. That being said, I believe that you can make the choice of whether or not to be open to having a relationship with someone, regardless of your sexuality. But that choice doesn't mean that you're making the choice of being gay or being straight, or even being bi. Relating this, you can make the choice of wanting to be happy, but wanting to be happy doesn't make you happy. A gay person can make the choice of wanting to be straight, but wanting to be straight doesn't make you straight.

Kiyoshi the Polar Bear
July 5th, 2011, 06:16 AM
It's not a choice.

In fact, if we didn't put some much attention on it and accepted it right from the start into society and treated it as a perfectly natural part of human life,

we wouldn't be having this conversation and everyone's lives would be easier.

"Coversion therapy? What's that?"
"Another name for it is gay therapy."
"....Gay therapy? is that- is that like when a guy gives another guy a massage or something?"
"No, it's when someone who is gay goes to a therapist to become straight."
"...."
"What?"
"I don't get it."

deoxys121
July 5th, 2011, 11:18 AM
My beliefs in this case: Your sexual orientation is not a choice. You are born that way and it is just a matter of discovering your sexual orientation. In today's generally homophobic society, I can understand why homosexuals would not discover it for several years because of fear of not being accepted, so they try to "convince" themselves to act straight. I am fully accepting of anyone, despite their sexual orientation. I think if the rest of us were like that, the whole world would be a much better place. I think homosexual couples should be allowed to get married and have every right that heterosexual couples have.

Kyoko
July 5th, 2011, 12:06 PM
Well, despite it grinding your gears, I don't think it's too crazy for multiple gay people to tell you that they can't change this aspect about themselves and that it's not a choice, in a topic dealing with, um, homosexuality.

And if it bothers you that much then you can respond to this post that does no such thing. :) right down there VVVV



So yeah, now you don't have to be grinded or whatevs.



Wut. Lol



I can recognize good looking people regardless of gender as well, unfortunately I don't see what this does for your argument that sexuality is a choice. And your just being very technical and arbitrary about what making a choice really is, you said that you don't want to be emotionally attracted to a man, so you "choose" not to be with them. But anybody else would look at that as you not liking men. Unless you're bisexual, and are just choosing to prefer one out of two things that you already like, then it's most likely that you're just straight. You didn't choose that, bro.. and if you did were you gay first?

And when you say that you've "chosen" not to be emotionally attached to a man, does that mean you're physically attracted to them? If so then it sounds more to me like you're gay but don't accept that part of yourself, which would make sense with your statement that you won't allow yourself to be emotionally attached to a guy.

And I don't think he's part of the exception, looking at this thread he seems to be a part of the vast majority. XD


This is a good post imo. :)



You can only choose to be something when you're something else to begin with. If you grew up heterosexual you never chose to be heterosexual, because you were never gay to begin with. Likewise with gay people, as demonstrated by everybody in this thread.

I agree with a lot of this. I think a lot of people are saying "I chose to be straight because I don't want to be with a guy/girl of my gender" are mixing it up with just plain unattraction. If you're choosing to be straight, then you had to understand what it was to be homosexual since you're choosing against it.

And I also fully think that gays have the right to speak about this topic like they know it well because they do. They are gay, they know what it's like, they experience it everyday, they would know if they chose it or not. Saying they can't be experts on it is like saying just because you're straight doesn't mean you know anything about it. If someone came up to me and told me I chose to be straight and live a straight lifestyle, I'd be confused and offended. I never sat down as a five year-old and thought to myself "now....do I want to chase the boys around the playground or the girls? which lifestyle do I want for myself" No, I just like guys. Plain and simple. And I feel I can talk like I know a thing or two about being straight because I am, just like gay people can talk about being gay.

Count
July 5th, 2011, 12:27 PM
One thing I don't understand is people who see it as a choice and then clarify it as sexuality being formed by experiences and environment in life. If your sexuality would be formed like that it would not be a choice. Those are two different things; before you say something is a choice please make sure you know what a choice is.

Now for my opinion, I am convinced it is not a choice. You can choose to date men or women, but you don't choose whether you're attracted to men or women.
I am unsure however of how sexuality is formed. I don't know whether I was born this way. There definitely is a difference between emotional attraction and sexual attraction though. I can have a crush on guys as well as girls so I consider myself bisexual. I know that I can be emotionally attracted to both genders. But sexually, I definitely have a preference. Whether I follow that preference, THAT is a choice. But the preference is there. It's part of me.

Azonic
July 5th, 2011, 02:30 PM
[SIZE="2"][FONT="Georgia"]One thing I don't understand is people who see it as a choice and then clarify it as sexuality being formed by experiences and environment in life. If your sexuality would be formed like that it would not be a choice. Those are two different things; before you say something is a choice please make sure you know what a choice is.

Its just unconscious choice vs. conscious choice. It's definitely not a conscious choice, and an unconscious choice would be doing something that leads to homosexuality without knowing.

At least they acknowledge that you can't just wake up one day and say I'm Straight hhaah

Townes
July 7th, 2011, 09:00 AM
Whether or not you can choose to be gay or not, it's not something to be mocked, because it is, very bluntly and probably slightly incorrectly, not being attracted to (in the case of men) boobs and the southern necessities.

tehGDS
July 15th, 2011, 11:03 AM
..these posts about how it's a choice is just making me sad.. it's like how inferno said.. it's like choosing to have autism or aspherger's syndrome, you can't choose it.. if I can choose to be straight well can't I choose already? I have been mocked at many times, and also my ex had made me hate giving guys a chance, but that still didn't make me straight, I was not aroused by girls even after that horrible break up. I really don't think it's a choice.. I only say I'm going to turn straight when it's a joke, geez take it as a joke.. >_> lol but um, it's not a choice I really don't think it's a mental disorder either, either you're born with it or not, that is all thank you 8D

Aorio
July 15th, 2011, 01:32 PM
Being gay is absolutely not a choice. I get so tired of hearing this. Think of it this way: I could never imagine liking or being attracted to or being in a relationship with another girl. The thought just does not appeal to me whatsoever. Well, that's how it is for someone who is gay, just with the opposite gender. I think it's terrible how someone can be shunned just for loving who they want to love. All the Disney movies I watched growing up taught me to love whoever I want to love. Why is the world trying to tell someone who is gay differently now?

Shadow_Angel
July 16th, 2011, 05:55 AM
I personally think you're born with it. You can't choose it. You don't really realize it, though, until you get to the stage of puberty. I think you're born with it.
But, as for the user who said it is a disorder... what the heck. No, just no. Homosexuality is NOT a disorder. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. And for people who do think it's wrong, people beside the user who said it's a disorder, is just... I'm disappointed in them. Being gay, there's nothing wrong with it. You're just born with it, and you don't realize it until puberty.
There's nothing wrong with being gay. It's natural. I'm just speaking my thoughts here.

twocows
July 16th, 2011, 07:49 AM
I don't think the question matters unless you're trying to understand human sexuality from a scientific perspective. Whether they are born as such or become such through their experiences, the cause doesn't matter. I don't see homosexuality as a problem, so I don't really care. There are more important things to think about and real problems to deal with.

Nuke
July 16th, 2011, 02:03 PM
I'm not sure about being born with it. It could be born with it or your surroundings or a mixture of the two.

Either way, it's certainly not a choice.

And I think Atomico's post would surprisingly back up that argument despite it's actual intentions.

In my opinion it's a mental disorder at birth, but I can't be sure about that since I never really do research on it. Either way, being homosexual is not right, there's definitely something wrong there.

Why would you choose to be gay if people think you have a mental disorder because of it?

Blue
July 16th, 2011, 02:22 PM
Born that way, you can't choose your sexuallity.

Ultraviolence
July 19th, 2011, 08:04 PM
It's suprised me how many bigots there are here; it's no way a disorder! I am gay, I didn't choose it, nor was I born it, I believe it came around because of life experiences.

All of my remaining family members when I was born were female; I never had any male influences til I was around 4/5. I believe this contributed to my homosexuality; and I also believe the fact my mum is in a civil relationship made me realise my orientation.

But, unlike many gay people, I can accept that some people simply don't like the lifestyle, and that's fine, until it results in hate crime. I know discrimination is bad, but to be quite honest, I've accepted that many minorities (Muslims, black people, Jews) have discrimination on many degrees.

I also think that countries and US states have the right to ban homosexuality or gay marriage. It's all to do with their common beliefs and if people are gay in those states or counties, then they should seek refuge in a different country/state to avert this. The death penalty however, is a stroke too far.

Gothitelle.
July 20th, 2011, 12:45 PM
It's interesting to me the number of people who think sexual orientation is genetic. I honestly think that it varies from case to case. There is no one answer, just like most things in life.

I believe that for certain people, such events have happened in their lives that cause sexual orientation to be a choice. And I prefer to think of it as a choice, myself. Everyone makes such a big deal out of sexual orientation, probably because everyone makes a huge deal out of romance itself. But who says you have to be attracted to one specific gender all your life? If there weren't such taboos and prejudices linked to homosexuality, if it was as much an accepted part of our lives as doing the groceries once a week, I am convinced that many more people would be open to the idea of relations with those of the same sex, and would routinely switch between the two genders, just for kicks. Essentially, if it were not tabooed, a large sum of the population would be bisexual. And then you'd always have a small percentage that obviously don't follow the trends and stick to a specific gender for whatever reason.

I prefer to think of it like this: All your life, have you liked one single colour only? Has one colour been your favourite colour since you can remember? Some of you, sure, maybe, and cool for you. But not me, and I'm willing to bet not most of you either. Why did that change? Red used to be your favourite colour, but now it's second-best to green. You can't explain it, you just prefer the shade, you like what it reminds you of, how it makes you feel. Liking a colour, liking anything, is an attraction. Now you see where I'm going with this. Sexual orientation is an attraction and it can change. Not overnight, definitely not, but it can change. And the only reason why it can change is because everyone assumes their child is straight from birth.

However, there are always and always will be cases that disprove my view. You can all promote the notion that sexual orientation is genetic, and I won't disagree (completely) because I used to think that way too. But I've thought about it and this is the conclusion I've come to.




tl;dr it's a choice.


I have to say I agree with this. I found your color analogy kinda strange, but I can kinda see where you are going.

Like you said, sexual orientation of a choice as to who are you attracted to. Tastes do change. There have people gay people who have gone straight or decided they were bisexual. And from a quote that I've been taught in the bible along time ago, it was kinda hinting that one can change their sexuality if they choose to.

But like you, I'd would probably be jumped for this. :-/

Myles
July 20th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Even though favourite colours and tastes and stuff change, you can't consciously change them yourself. Is red your favourite colour because you chose it to be? If it is, then it's not really your favourite colour, it's just what you tell people is.

Alice
July 20th, 2011, 05:38 PM
It's suprised me how many bigots there are here; it's no way a disorder! I am gay, I didn't choose it, nor was I born it, I believe it came around because of life experiences. I've been saying that for a long time, glad someone who is actually Gay finally brought it up too.
I also think that countries and US states have the right to ban homosexuality or gay marriage. It's all to do with their common beliefs and if people are gay in those states or counties, then they should seek refuge in a different country/state to avert this. The death penalty however, is a stroke too far.
I can't quite agree with you there. The US is built upon freedom and equality, meaning that everyone, regardless of race/gender/sexuality should be treated equal. That's obviously not actually the case, but that doesn't mean you should stop fighting to make it happen.

.Fenris
July 20th, 2011, 09:37 PM
Do people get to choose eye/hair colour at birth? No? Same with sexuality.

-ty-
July 20th, 2011, 09:57 PM
I've been saying that for a long time, glad someone who is actually Gay finally brought it up too.

I can't quite agree with you there. The US is built upon freedom and equality, meaning that everyone, regardless of race/gender/sexuality should be treated equal. That's obviously not actually the case, but that doesn't mean you should stop fighting to make it happen.

It's tough deciding as you say what is going "too far". Of course the death penalty is, as you stated. But, what about marriage? If that is not too far, then the right to vote could be acceptable as well. For example, in a Missouri Republican straw poll in 2010, the data showed that more people believed that biracial marriage should be illegal, than those who believed it should be legal. If the state had a proposition, and favored to illegalize biracial marriage, would that be going to far? Just because a people share a common belief, does if make it right? I think that is the reason why groups that have been oppressed, especially in the past, like women, black people, disabled people, gay people, and so on and so forth, never stop advocating rights, even when they are approaching equity. The reason being, they do not want to slide back and say, "well they can take away our right to vote, or marriage, because the public believes that." Once you start giving rights to people, they end up getting more and more right, like a domino effect until they become more equitable. The same could be true for taking away right. Once you take one away, it becomes more acceptable to keep taking and taking. So long story short, maybe being complacent with what rights you have, knowing that you still are not treated as an equal, could lead to complacency of more rights being taken away.

But I definitely agree that in MOST cases, the majority belief should be taken into account.




I have to say I agree with this. I found your color analogy kinda strange, but I can kinda see where you are going.

Like you said, sexual orientation of a choice as to who are you attracted to. Tastes do change. There have people gay people who have gone straight or decided they were bisexual. And from a quote that I've been taught in the bible along time ago, it was kinda hinting that one can change their sexuality if they choose to.

But like you, I'd would probably be jumped for this. :-/

I can see how you see sexuality as a choice, since you are not GBLT. But try to look at it from a different perspective. What if being straight was called an "abomination" in the bible, and it was not a social norm. If someone asked you to change your sexuality and become gay, do you think a straight person could do that?

If the world really was like that, and gay was the norm. I think that it is POSSIBLE that I would come to the conclusion that sexuality is a choice.

I really want to know what your thoughts are; don't worry I will respect your opinion this time.

U.Flame
July 20th, 2011, 10:53 PM
woI think some people are more flexible than others. Some people are what they are and can't change it. Others might be able to choose who they like physically. But emotional love is something no one can choose or control. I think you have to fall in love to find out for sure. I'm pretty sure you're born the way you are too. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality either. It's not a disease nor is it anything to be ashamed of. I like women but I'm not uncomfortable with the idea of falling in love with a man. I just have to wait to fall in love to find out. And there's definitely a difference between opinion and bigotry. "Homosexuality isn't wrong" isn't just an opinion, it's a fact. Anyone who thinks there's something wrong with it, that's not an opinion, that's prejudice. It shouldn't be used as an insult either.

On a side note, I think saying "gay" when complaining about something isn't as wrong as it seems. I know quite a few people who are tolerant of homosexuals, but still use "gay" when complaining. They don't actually think gay is bad, it's just something they say as a completely different definition. Although I can see how it can be offensive, it just depends on how they use it and what you think of it. I just don't think it's a 100% offensive.

Also, I've been wondering, has there ever been any game with a homosexual main character? One of the three main characters in my hack is a homosexual, and while it's not the focus of the game, it's something I hope people can learn to tolerate. And NOT just because she's a female. I hate it when people are okay with lesbians but not gay men.

Emolga
July 21st, 2011, 04:19 PM
To be honest, I hope if I have a son one day that he is gay. haha. I am like Will's crazy ex-wife from Glee!

Don't worry I am joking; I would love my son if he was straight too! The truth is that gay, straight, lesbian, transgender, bisexual, poly-amorous, and everyone else in between do not choose to have their brains release certain response stimuli in accordance to sexual orientation. I think for some people, chemicals send mixed signals, and they kind of have to "experiment" with sexuality and love.

Gothitelle.
July 21st, 2011, 04:44 PM
I can see how you see sexuality as a choice, since you are not GBLT. But try to look at it from a different perspective. What if being straight was called an "abomination" in the bible, and it was not a social norm. If someone asked you to change your sexuality and become gay, do you think a straight person could do that?

If the world really was like that, and gay was the norm. I think that it is POSSIBLE that I would come to the conclusion that sexuality is a choice.

I really want to know what your thoughts are; don't worry I will respect your opinion this time.


If the bible said that being straight was wrong and being gay was the way to the pearly white gates, then I'd have to chose to be gay because I don't want to to go to the inferno. Plus, it would be another thing for people to point fingers and laugh at me about.

If I was asked to change me sexuality however, that would be hard for me because I can't see myself being into girls. I can't see myself living that lifestyle.