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Alternative
July 18th, 2011, 10:35 PM
I have no idea what to call this, but yeah, how do you feel about pushing religion onto other people? Do you feel like it's a duty to try and make people believe in god, or believe in evolution or anything like that? I was asking because I know that some people (Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormen etc.) try to push religion onto other people because they feel their religion is dominant over others. I guess there's also a double standard there with pushing what athiests believe is fact in evolution onto people who believe in creationism.

So, is it wrong to push religion onto other people?

Åzurε
July 18th, 2011, 10:52 PM
Well, here's my policy: I want to try and bring people to Christianity and Christ out of a love for God and a concern for the wellbeing of others. Being forceful about it doesn't result in the kind of people God wants- resentful or fearful or feeling obligated to practice the traditions of the faith. Showing them the facts, discussing with them when they want to listen and being there when people need help is the best way to go about it. Live in such a way that people are intrigued by the way you do things. Making them come to you is far better than trying to push anything. In a time like this, I doubt if you can tell anyone anything about their wellbeing by pretexting the issue with some kind of force.

Gymnotide
July 18th, 2011, 10:52 PM
NO!

Wait wait wait, Alternative D:

Evolutionary Theory (not evolution, ask me about this if interested) should never be associated with irreligiousness / secularity, nor "atheism" as you call it. Evolutionary Theory is very much an idea that can harmonize with religions and the existence of deities. It's all about the change and not the origins--so, it's not really opposing Creationism either, unless you're a super fundamentalist. In that case, I'd... I don't know what to say.

Åzurε
July 18th, 2011, 10:58 PM
NO!

Wait wait wait, Alternative D:

Evolutionary Theory (not evolution, ask me about this if interested) should never be associated with irreligiousness / secularity, nor "atheism" as you call it. Evolutionary Theory is very much an idea that can harmonize with religions and the existence of deities. It's all about the change and not the origins--so, it's not really opposing Creationism either, unless you're a super fundamentalist. In that case, I'd... I don't know what to say.
Thing is, when you believe in creationism or anything else, you should consider the implications of that particular tidbit on the rest of your beliefs. I've found that Biblical creationism and evolutionary theory mesh very, very poorly (That's another discussion entirely, though!). Associated with humanism/secularism/atheism? Yup, and almost inextricably- it creates a naturalistic answer for one of the questions religion tends to address: "How did we get here?". Same thing? Technically no.

Super Fundamentalist, away!

Livewire
July 18th, 2011, 11:03 PM
Religion is incredibly personal. People need to learn to keep it to themselves and to not force any sort of belief on others, whether it be secular or religious. Mind your own damn business.

JimJams
July 18th, 2011, 11:05 PM
It's never a good thing to do. Your beliefs re your beliefs and others' beliefs are theirs.

Forever
July 18th, 2011, 11:10 PM
idk isn't it better having all the sides of the story aka other things you could believe in instead of just believing one thing and deciding "nope that's all I'm willing to listen to"? imo it's no different to that, just getting different perspectives you haven't seen before!

Also you can't really believe in just one thing, there's no harm taking other ideas from other things to further expand your own beliefs or something.

Gymnotide
July 18th, 2011, 11:18 PM
Thing is, when you believe in creationism or anything else, you should consider the implications of that particular tidbit on the rest of your beliefs. I've found that Biblical creationism and evolutionary theory mesh very, very poorly (That's another discussion entirely, though!). Associated with humanism/secularism/atheism? Yup, and almost inextricably- it creates a naturalistic answer for one of the questions religion tends to address: "How did we get here?". Same thing? Technically no.

Super Fundamentalist, away!

Unfortunately, ET doesn't actually contradict anything that Creationism puts out there, except for the fact that in many variants, Creationism says that species are static. In the same way that the Biblical God created physics and chemistry--which I assume aren't being contested here--evolution is a scientific mechanism that just happens to work. Evolutionary THEORY is the explanation for the mechanisms for why it occurs. I don't see why ET is any different than physics / chemistry.

Livewire
July 18th, 2011, 11:22 PM
idk isn't it better having all the sides of the story aka other things you could believe in instead of just believing one thing and deciding "nope that's all I'm willing to listen to"? imo it's no different to that, just getting different perspectives you haven't seen before!

Also you can't really believe in just one thing, there's no harm taking other ideas from other things to further expand your own beliefs or something.

There's a fundamental difference between voluntarily exploring new viewpoints, and having them spoon-fed to you by someone you don't know.

Forever
July 18th, 2011, 11:25 PM
There's a fundamental difference between voluntarily exploring new viewpoints, and having them spoon-fed to you by someone you don't know.

Not really, some people might be close-minded and don't feel like exploring new ideas until they're actually like, tapped on the shoulder (or something like that) to do so.

Alternative
July 18th, 2011, 11:27 PM
Not really, some people might be close-minded and don't feel like exploring new ideas until they're actually like, tapped on the shoulder (or something like that) to do so.
What I'm trying to aim for in your terms of music compared to religion is saying that maybe this person won't leave you along until you're fully in love with say, Britney Spears if you very against them. Trying to force religion is totally different than exploring new points of different religion.

Gymnotide
July 18th, 2011, 11:28 PM
Unfortunately, ET doesn't actually contradict anything that Creationism puts out there, except for the fact that in many variants, Creationism says that species are static. In the same way that the Biblical God created physics and chemistry--which I assume aren't being contested here--evolution is a scientific mechanism that just happens to work. Evolutionary THEORY is the explanation for the mechanisms for why it occurs. I don't see why ET is any different than physics / chemistry.

Quoting myself as well to point out an addendum too:

By Creationism, I believe you're referring to Young-Earth Creationism, which is the most radical of them all. Of Creationists, there are five (?) accepted groups, two of which (theistic evolution & progressive Creationism) are very much compatible with ET, and two of which (Intelligent Design & gap creation) are somewhat of a grey area in terms of how radical your beliefs are.

Opposite Day
July 19th, 2011, 12:07 AM
I'll try my very best to be careful when expressing myself about this matter, as I do not want to offend anyone nor their beliefs.

Simply put, I am of the opinion that everyone should be able to make their own desicion about what they believe in, without the influence of others. Indeed, just like Livewire says, it is personal business indeed, and personal it should remain no matter what.

However, take the Jehova's Witnesses into account, for instance. From what I have gathered from talking to several of them from time to time, they are of the opinion that if they do not share what they believe in with others, they will be excluded from their society and not be counted as a part of what they believe in. Getting put between a rock and a hard place might indeed be similar to what they might feel when doing this, as they probably know by themselves that it is not very likely to have a positive effect on people, but they still feel that they have to do so.

But does religions grow out of themselves, without people actually sharing what they believe in? Here in Norway, for instance, nearly the entire country is christened, thanks to a certain king deciding to remove the Norse gods and slaughter the people that refused to, and it is now the "official" religion of the country, but the general opinion around here is that the religion no longer is a personal subject, but a subject of the state. If he didn't decide to take it by sword, this entire country probably wouldn't have given a damn. Hell, one might even argue the case of where Jesus might promise eternal life and vague things like that, Thor and Odin promised no more ice giants, and you don't see any of those around (anymore dun dun dun)

If anything else Mormons believe that you've got free agency. You can choose what you want to do, but you've got to deal with the consequences. The religion I believe in spawned (as did many others) during a time in the USA where people were unsure about what to believe in, as the generic christianity seemed straight out not to just cut it anymore - which is totally fine by my book. People might be persuasive, but after all it is, and should always remain your choice, and no one should be able nor try to force you into believing anything.

With that in mind, I don't really see the problem of talking to people about religion. It is what I'm going to do for two straight years in a foreign country, and I will probably mostly only be rejected. I do not receive any payment for doing so either, it all comes straight out of my own pocket. The way I look at it, I won't be pushing it at people, because they will certainly be able to refuse me and my advances, I'm sharing something personal that I care about. Indeed, it is a thin line to walk, and one very easy to cross, but we do not walk about because we want to be annoying.

Finally, MormOns does not necessarily believe that the church we go to is the perfect flawless one, but that at least the idea behind it was a pretty good one. Turning the question around, one might want to ask why someone would want to believe in something that they don't think is true, but each to their own I guess.

Sodom
July 19th, 2011, 02:46 AM
I'm actually conflicted on this topic. I agree with the sentiment that everybody needs to mind their own business and don't try to push their beliefs on others, I also feel that if this doesn't happen, no progress will ever be made. For instance, if someone accosted me on the street or in a mall or knocked on my door and tried to convert me to their religion (which has happened before) I would most definitely tell them I was not interested and remove myself from the situation.

However, that said, I don't know whether I'm comfortable with

Religion is incredibly personal. People need to learn to keep it to themselves and to not force any sort of belief on others, whether it be secular or religious. Mind your own damn business.

either. I don't know why, it just seems a little too... I don't know. I guess if nobody ever forced their beliefs on anyone else, the world might be a little boring? Nobody would be challenging each other's thoughts. I don't like that.

Guy
July 19th, 2011, 03:38 AM
No, the idea that someone would try and force another to covert to their beliefs always puts me on edge. I don't believe it's fair for someone to forcibly make someone else change their views or religion just to follow the other person. It's not right in my opinion, and you're not exactly achieving anything if a person has to be forced; more so if they're adamantly against it in the first place. Simply trying to say their religion is better or "more real" than the next is absolute garbage. We all have our beliefs, and not everyone is going to agree with them, but that is what makes people differ from each other.

Now, for someone to introduce others to their religion, not forcibly, but of the person's own free will to acknowledge their religion and be willing to learn more about it, then that's fine. That is what allows people to open their mind more to just what they believe in. Like sometimes, I would have a friend invite me to go to church with them. In some cases it's a church centered around a religion I don't follow, but I go as a matter of respect and interest to learn more about their beliefs.

To say the least, forcing someone to do something they don't want to do will only create resistance. I don't see the point in that.

deoxys121
July 19th, 2011, 04:50 AM
Here's my stance on this:

The United States, where I live, was founded on Freedom of Religion, among other things. Therefore, everyone has the right to have whatever religion they choose to believe or disbelieve. I consider myself a non-denominational Christian, simply because there is no branch of Christianity that I 100% agree with. I admittedly do not believe every word the Bible says.

As far as pushing religion on people, that's wrong and disrespectful, in my mind. As I said, we all have the right to believe what we want religiously. I respect this in everyone as long as they give me the same respect in return by not trying to push their own beliefs on me over my own beliefs. My idea of respecting people religiously is that you allow them to believe as they choose, even if you don't believe it. There are various religious views in my family, ranging between various branches of Christianity, Paganism, and atheism.

My final point: Don't try to push your beliefs on someone else if they don't believe them, because you wouldn't want someone else pushing their beliefs on you which you don't believe.

Livewire
July 19th, 2011, 07:12 AM
I'm actually conflicted on this topic. I agree with the sentiment that everybody needs to mind their own business and don't try to push their beliefs on others, I also feel that if this doesn't happen, no progress will ever be made. For instance, if someone accosted me on the street or in a mall or knocked on my door and tried to convert me to their religion (which has happened before) I would most definitely tell them I was not interested and remove myself from the situation.

However, that said, I don't know whether I'm comfortable with



either. I don't know why, it just seems a little too... I don't know. I guess if nobody ever forced their beliefs on anyone else, the world might be a little boring? Nobody would be challenging each other's thoughts. I don't like that.


What right does anyone have to do so? People can challenge each others thoughts in an academic or scholastic setting, (basically a University) where it could be productive.

Bluerang1
July 19th, 2011, 09:01 AM
Don't push, if they aren't interested and you really want them to be, be persistent in informing but don't push. It'll get to a point where they'll either spare you time or really really show that they aren't interested, if you want them to then pray for them, and you ought to let them be and move o to someone else. This is regarding Christians.

Blue Nocturne
July 19th, 2011, 09:25 AM
I've nothing wrong with a bit of religious debate, in fact I'm quite involved with that sort of thing. Howver, seeing people genuinely try to push their beliefs on other people in day to day life, or even being arrogant in their own beliefs and belittling others (I.E: Mine is the one TRUE faith, or people calling others pagans as an insult) frustrates me. All it's likely to do is annoy people and discourage them from your faith, so why even bother!

I've nothing wrong with religion per se, but the kind of fundamentalism that attempts to contradict established scientific fact irritates me to the point where I become a total hypocrite and deliver my own bizarre brand of education. But that's a rant for another topic.

NurseBarbra
July 19th, 2011, 09:40 AM
My stance is that, If someone doesn't try to push it onto myself or other people and don't get stuck up about it, we can be friends, If they do however... I will get my biggest rant face, and then violate and torture their minds with an endless hannah montanna cd and torture them with various other methods...

deoxys121
July 19th, 2011, 10:43 AM
I think the only time it's really acceptable to preach your beliefs to someone else that doesn't necessarily believe them is if that person is actually showing a desire to hear about those beliefs.

G.U.Y.
July 19th, 2011, 10:47 AM
I think the only time it's really acceptable to preach your beliefs to someone else that doesn't necessarily believe them is if that person is actually showing a desire to hear about those beliefs.
This.

It's only okay to preach beliefs to people who are interested. If you push your religion onto other people, you're..what are the words I am looking for..oh, an inconsiderate selfish douchebag.

If anyone pushes their religion onto me, I will give them three chances to stop. Then my foot enters their face.

Esper
July 19th, 2011, 12:21 PM
I think that when something can be shown to be of benefit to a person where a lack of said something would cause direct harm then I'd say there is grounds for attempting to confront them. Example: sick person refusing medicine. I'm not saying that either side is necessarily right, but there is enough evidence that harm could happen so a conversation is necessary. The sick person might just be afraid or confused, or they might have a moral stance against taking the medicine. And so on.

When something can be shown to be beneficial, but that a lack of this something doesn't automatically cause bad things for a person then there is no cause for a conversation. Example: religion gives people hope and community, but people don't need religion for that. I see it a little like trespassing on someone's beliefs by assuming that yours are better.

There are, of course, plenty of instances where I would have no compunctions about pushing my beliefs on someone else, but I would only do so when I felt like there was a viable reason and a clear benefit. Example: persuading someone to support gay marriage. From my viewpoint it is discriminatory and therefore harmful. I would go into more detail, but I'm just using it as an example.

Alli
July 19th, 2011, 12:35 PM
I wouldn't dare force my religion on someone. If someone wanted me to tell them about Christ, I'll do so. I'm not the best candidate, but my point still stands. But blatantly going around and flaunting your religion in someone's face and trying to force them to believe in it is just wrong, and I'm very against it. Now, inviting someone to church is something I'm alright with too, because you're giving that person the option to go or not, or go when they feel comfortable. That's fine. But the blatant "you need to believe in God" stuff is just not.

Elite Overlord LeSabre™
July 19th, 2011, 01:03 PM
All I know is that I don't want other people forcing their beliefs on me, so I won't force mine on them. Everyone can believe what they want to, and I certainly don't want to be the bad guy by forcing my beliefs on another person.

Kyoko
July 19th, 2011, 01:21 PM
I believe in world religion education because I feel half the reason for all the religious tension is because of ignorance to other religions. However, I don't think that's pushing religion, but rather teaching it and it should be taught un-bias and with equal amount of time given to each religion.

There's a difference between that and having someone tell you what to believe. If you think your religion is so great that I need to convert, feel free to tell me. But once I say no, leave it at that. Once you say no and they keep going, it's annoying and rude.

Evanlyn
July 19th, 2011, 04:32 PM
I'd say that pushing one's religion on another is not good at all. If the other person shows interest in your religion, feel free to talk to them, but if they tell you to stop then... stop.
I think the best way to promote your religion (especially in Christians) is to live it. Live what you've learnt - and then people may be interested and ask you about it, and then you can talk to them. But don't force your religion on them.

Livewire
July 22nd, 2011, 08:25 PM
I believe in world religion education because I feel half the reason for all the religious tension is because of ignorance to other religions. However, I don't think that's pushing religion, but rather teaching it and it should be taught un-bias and with equal amount of time given to each religion.

There's a difference between that and having someone tell you what to believe. If you think your religion is so great that I need to convert, feel free to tell me. But once I say no, leave it at that. Once you say no and they keep going, it's annoying and rude.

I'm all for teaching world religions in an objective, sort of informative way - so basically a comparative religion class like the one I've taken in college. The only problem would be getting people to look at it objectively, a few decades of ignorance can't be cleared up easily, unfortunately. :/

Sodom
July 23rd, 2011, 01:47 AM
What right does anyone have to do so? People can challenge each others thoughts in an academic or scholastic setting, (basically a University) where it could be productive.

This is true, but regardless, I'm just saying I don't think either absolute is necessarily a good thing.

I can't think of any instance where pushing one's religion on another person is acceptable, however I can't say the same of pushing secular thinking. This is because there are other social and political issues unfortunately tied into religion that can't be progressed upon without challenging people's religious beliefs. And then because of this, it would be a double-standard to say "well secularists do it but the religious cannot".

So what I'm saying is, I don't agree with it but I do see its purpose somewhat.

LightOfTruth
July 23rd, 2011, 12:37 PM
I don't like people forcing religion on me, They can't do anything to a atheist so what's the point? :)

twocows
July 24th, 2011, 10:09 AM
I wish people would keep it to themselves. I don't care what others believe, I wish they wouldn't care what I believe. I'm already satisfied with the answers I've found, I have better things to do than to explain why I think they're satisfactory.