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Otter Mii-kun
July 28th, 2011, 01:59 PM
In the next few days, it appears the United States federal government will hit its debt ceiling, without a deal in place to raise the ceiling and cut spending, like many in Congress are hoping for such a deal.
Many things are to blame, including both parties' constant bickering and dealing in absolutes ("it's either my way or no way"), and America's dangerous addiction to cheap credit and debt: Our addiction to overspending and debt is what's destroying what's left of our economy, and we will all be held accountable for it-and not just America, but the whole world will feel the effects.

I'm surprised Congress hasn't already repealed the debt ceiling altogether, allowing for a totally unlimited government debt load.

Part of the problem is that the tax cuts made during the Bush Administration were enacted without any meaningful spending cuts (in fact, spending exploded under the Bush Administration), and that, although they say us indivuduals should be paying more taxes, large corporations aren't paying their "fair share" (especially when they get away with not paying any taxes from selling off parts of their assets to companies much smaller than the assets they are selling, called a Reverse Morris Trust (http://ibew2326.com/html/rmt.htm), a type of transaction most famously used by Verizon to sell off landlines to FairPoint Communications, and more recently, Frontier Communications, (the former deal of which burdened FairPoint with so much debt, it had to file for bankruptcy; the latter deal of which I was directly affected by,) but that's a whole other topic.) Also, the Federal Reserve's interest rate cuts, which, in the name of "preventing/ending the recession/saving homeowners from foreclosure/reducing unemployment", have instead stimulated inflation and the excessive borrowing by the government by leaps and bounds.

Below is an article comparing ordinary American's addiction to debt to our government's debt crisis.
From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/us-government-consumers-are-addicted-debt :
Like the U.S. government, consumers are 'addicted to debt'
Submitted by SHNS on Wed, 07/27/2011 - 13:55

By TIM GRANT, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

The average consumer may feel far removed from the heated debates on Capitol Hill concerning the $14.3 trillion debt ceiling, which the nation could crash into next week.
But the truth is, American households are dealing with plenty of their own red ink, and the debt issues that lawmakers must solve to get the nation back on track are similar to those facing consumers.

According to Federal Reserve data, total household debt in the nation at the end of 2010 amounted to about $13.4 trillion, which means consumers owe almost as much as the federal government.

"The conclusion to be drawn is that the government, as well as the U.S. population, is addicted to debt," said Eleanor Blayney, a consumer advocate for the Certified Financial Planner Board of Standards in Washington, D.C.

The federal debt ceiling is best compared to a consumer credit card limit. Congress has authorized the government to spend over and above the credit limit, which is the same as a consumer who spends now and worries about the bill later.

But when it comes to accumulating and paying off debt, consumers face challenges that can't be compared to the government.

Credit card companies and other lenders are not inclined to solve consumer overspending by raising the credit limit. While some card issuers may raise limits in some cases for their best customers, most will simply cancel the card or close the account and demand full payment.

According to the consumer website Creditcards.com, average credit card debt per household with credit card debt in the United States is $14,687. Meanwhile, trillions of dollars in household wealth was wiped out during the financial crisis of 2008.

The Federal Reserve earlier this year conducted a survey of U.S. households that showed the median net worth of households fell from $125,000 in 2007 to $96,000 in 2009.

"The federal government isn't in hock to MasterCard -- rather, to the millions of individuals, pension funds and foreign central banks who have loaned us money," said Terry Connelly, dean emeritus of the Ageno School of Business at Golden Gate University in San Francisco.

The enforcers of the nation's credit limit are the rating agencies that demand that we raise our debt limit.

"But they want a cut in our spending pattern along with it or they will downgrade our credit rating -- just like a consumer will get his credit score downgraded if he or she gets in trouble with MasterCard for overspending the credit limit," Connelly said.

"Both consumer and government debt are a byproduct of many years of bad financial habits and easy credit," said Greg McBride, a senior analyst for Bankrate, a leading online personal finance website based in North Palm Beach, Fla.

"It caught up with households first. Over the last several years, many households have had to make some difficult decisions.

"They've had to cut spending, take on second jobs and scale back their lifestyles. We're at a point where Uncle Sam needs to do the same, but (lawmakers) can't seem to see eye-to-eye."

Steve Smith, a portfolio manager for Covestor in southeastern Pennsylvania, said consumer debt had declined gradually over the last three years, but that the federal debt exploded by about $1.5 trillion in each of those three years.

Stimulus funding and bailouts meant to infuse money into the flailing economy and stave off an even deeper recession were a part of that, although the politicians continue to argue about the value of those.

"The consumer is already ahead of the government in trying to end its addiction to debt by not borrowing as much as they used to," Smith said. "But while consumer debt is going down, the federal debt is continuing to march upward."

(Contact reporter Tim Grant: at tgrant(at) post-gazette.com or 412-263-1591.)

(Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service, www.scrippsnews.com.)

Must credit Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Feel free to discuss what should be done about our debt crisis, the article I posted, or the points I have brought up in this post.

G.U.Y.
July 28th, 2011, 02:07 PM
I'm not an economist, so I really would like people to explain to me what is happening.

But as far as I know, here is what I think.

1. Having unlimited debt is stupid - it makes it so you have no major reason to fix a failing economy.
2. Both Republicans and Democrats are at fault. They won't work together.

FreakyLocz14
July 28th, 2011, 02:41 PM
The House already passed the Cut, Cap, and Balance Act. It raises the debt ceiling in exchange for real spending reforms and begins the process of passing a balanced budget amendment. The Democrats are the ones holding SS and Medicaid/Medicare hostage, since they refuse to cooperate, yet haven't put a bill up in Congress.

G.U.Y.
July 28th, 2011, 02:55 PM
The House already passed the Cut, Cap, and Balance Act. It raises the debt ceiling in exchange for real spending reforms and begins the process of passing a balanced budget amendment. The Democrats are the ones holding SS and Medicaid/Medicare hostage, since they refuse to cooperate, yet haven't put a bill up in Congress.

Walking out is cooperating?

Well, I need to walk out of everything then.

FreakyLocz14
July 28th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Walking out is cooperating?

Well, I need to walk out of everything then.

We already passed a bill in the House. The Senate could have amended the bill and debated it, but instead the Senate Dems chose obstructionism and voted it down. Has the Senate passed a bill for the House to consider? No. They need to put up a bill of their own or shut up.

Black Ice
July 28th, 2011, 08:09 PM
I feel like I missed something here. I thought Obama had several offers that the republicans turned down. I feel as if they want Obama to run this country into default just so he'll lose the 2012 election. I have heard so many people on your side talk about how removing Obama is their greatest priority. Greatest.

Even John McCain said a lot of the conservatives were being stupid and immature. John McCain. He's your voice of reason now.


Edit: Oh yeah, Boehner's proposal disappeared on us. Big surprise?

G.U.Y.
July 28th, 2011, 08:15 PM
We already passed a bill in the House. The Senate could have amended the bill and debated it, but instead the Senate Dems chose obstructionism and voted it down. Has the Senate passed a bill for the House to consider? No. They need to put up a bill of their own or shut up.

Cooperation takes more than just one side. Republicans are not willing to compromise, Democrats have.

I see you don't know your facts - I've seen this throughout most your posts that have anything to do with politics. You post what you want to be true, not what really is true.

FreakyLocz14
July 28th, 2011, 08:31 PM
I feel like I missed something here. I thought Obama had several offers that the republicans turned down. I feel as if they want Obama to run this country into default just so he'll lose the 2012 election. I have heard so many people on your side talk about how removing Obama is their greatest priority. Greatest.

Even John McCain said a lot of the conservatives were being stupid and immature. John McCain. He's your voice of reason now.


Edit: Oh yeah, Boehner's proposal disappeared on us. Big surprise?

If he wants tax increases, a Democratic member of Congress can introduce a bill or amend an existing bill. We need to be voting on these things in Congress, not the White House.

Went
July 28th, 2011, 11:52 PM
The problem is, the Republicans won't even try to compromise because otherwise the Tea Party voters will get angry (literally, in recent polls they were the only group who said their representatives should not even think of a compromise, as opposed to moderate republicans and democrats who supported a bipartisan solution). And no, saying "do everything I ask or else I'll say no" is not a bipartisan solution- even if they end up agreeing because the other solution would be letting the country default. And you say they haven't put up a bill in the Congress- well yeah, Republicans have majority and their own bill they are unwilling to compromise! Why in the world would they vote for anything else when that would make them look like "the ones chickening out"? Since we even got to this point, that proves that the US' economy collapsing is not enough of a reason for them, so I guess nothing would be.

It's easy to pass your plan and say "well, if they don't accept it, it's their fault, not mine". Why can't we say it's their fault for not suporting the Democrat Senate proposed bill? It's the same thing. And I can believe they don't want to remove the tax cuts when they alone cause 1.2tn of the debt. Seriously?

Plus, the House bill barely gives the Government money to get to 2012, meaning that this same exact problem will happen in a few months all over again. But, at this rate, the US will default before Greece (or any of the EU countries that have had a debt crisis for years already) does- that will certainly will be something else.

Oh, and I'd like to add, as of the last edit of this post, the House still hasn't agreed on anything because the Tea Partiers consider Boehner's plan "too moderate". So no, there isn't anything already approved anywhere. And if the Senate manages to pass the Democrat proposal first, the Republicans will be the ones declining an existing plan. And I still it's incredibly sad to see how the US politics have got so radical since Obama's election that they can't even agree on a plan to save the US from defaulting. The Republican Party is in a really bad crisis if they can't even agree on a partisan solution proposed by their House leader.

Esper
July 29th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Every time one of the tea partiers comes on the news they never answer any questions. They just say the same repeated lines and have these Dolores Umbridge-like smiles on their faces that say without saying "Why can't you see that I'm only doing what is right and that you have everything wrong?"

Republicans are so at fault over this. Well, the exrteme tea partiers are most at fault. They could just let the debt ceiling pass, but noooooo. They want to get something out of it. Obama has offered so much to the Republicans to get a compromise over something that they shouldn't be haggling over in the first place and they still won't agree. They won't compromise. Period. They want everything their way and they'll let the economy fall apart if they don't get it.

Their proposals are so ridiculously political that even the usually spineless Democrats in the Senate realized it.

Republicans just want to see Obama fail. That's what they've said since he was elected.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
July 29th, 2011, 05:11 PM
the house pass the boehner's bill but a couple minutes later the senete shot it down...neverstood a chance...even obama said if it did pass the senate he was going to veto it...
Both are at fault here...we are looking a lot like Rome now...

Black Ice
July 29th, 2011, 06:45 PM
The house vote was 218-210.

Also, Larry Reid introduced a new plan. I'm pretty sure it's just going to get rejected by the house though. It's all fun and games until Monday.

FreakyLocz14
July 29th, 2011, 07:07 PM
I hear all this talk about the Republicans not wanting to compromise. Why don't the Senate Democrats offer amendments to the House bill, then? They just want to slander the House GOP for political gain.

Livewire
July 29th, 2011, 07:28 PM
I hear all this talk about the Republicans not wanting to compromise. Why don't the Senate Democrats offer amendments to the House bill, then? They just want to slander the House GOP for political gain.

Are you actually serious? That's all Boehner and the mob you call the Tea Party have ever done from day one. The Republicans don't compromise. They force their own agenda and pander to the tea party and the fanatical fear mongering of people like McConnell, Bachmann, Beck, Palin and McCain.

Who raised the Debt Ceiling 7 times during the Bush Administration? They did. Which just proves that the entire issue here is entirely political semantics and the Republicans are once again going out of their way to obstruct Obama at every single turn.

Black Ice
July 29th, 2011, 08:10 PM
I hear all this talk about the Republicans not wanting to compromise. Why don't the Senate Democrats offer amendments to the House bill, then? They just want to slander the House GOP for political gain.
Everything the house is "offering" is pretty obviously one-sided. There is nothing in it for the democrats. No real compromise. Then when the time comes, the republicans can just say whatever you did and act like they're the victims of some political cold shoulder. I don't understand why you people always make yourselves victims when it's very clear you're not.

There's talks about Obama using the 14th amendment though (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/60038.html).

Captain Hobo.
July 29th, 2011, 08:19 PM
I think the Democrats and Republicans are just trash talking each other and are going to raise the debt ceiling before we go over it.

Mr. X
July 29th, 2011, 08:45 PM
Personally, im all for a ballanced approach.

Cut spending. Cap spending. Cut social security benefits. Cut medicare benefits. Fix tax loopholes.

Make it fair. Don't just target the elderly (by cutting medicare and SS) Lets spread the pain evenly (By cutting medicare, SS, and the removal of tax loopholes)

Until the Republicans are willing to remove tax loopholes, its not fair in anyway. Its just a attack on the elderly.

As for Democrats, come up with a bill or ammend the republican bill. Sure, the republicans are not willing to negoiate but your not helping at all.

That said, even if the democrats DID come up with a bill, the house would shoot it down just because it attempts to make the rich pay for some of it. They apparently don't agree with that, but apparently have no problems with making the elderly pay for everything.

Black Ice
July 29th, 2011, 08:50 PM
This good enough for you? (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/reid-aims-for-gop-support-by-adopting-mcconnell-debt-limit-plan-fallback-plan.php)

I don't understand why the rich get off easy. They are the ones who can support the economy. You don't steal from the poor and give to the rich. Exaggerated but same principle.

Mario The World Champion
July 29th, 2011, 10:41 PM
I wouldn't call the Tea Party a mob, even though that is what they seem to act like. I would call them fascists. It seems more fitting. Fareed Zakiaria of CNN commented on Anderson Cooper 360 that the Tea Party are anti-democratic and wants to see America fall just to get their message through.

I think the Tea Party has been drinking too much of their own Kool-aid to not see how bad this default will be. They just want Obama gone.

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
July 30th, 2011, 03:51 PM
I bet this will have a huge impact on the elections. worst of all on our economy and I don't think it will be a positive one either...we should vote those who weren't willing to compromise out of public office for causing this mess...
Three days left...can they do it in time?

FreakyLocz14
July 30th, 2011, 04:02 PM
Lulz. The Democrats are now filibustering their own plan in the Senate, while Obama is threatening to veto everything that comes to his desk. So much for compromise, eh?

Let the political theatre continue! Get your popcorn.

Black Ice
July 30th, 2011, 04:21 PM
Republicans and democrats to soon find common ground. (link) (http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/07/29/crsbr110727.gif)

This is also an interesting read. (link) (http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/29/news/economy/debt_ceiling_reid_boehner/index.htm?iid=EAL)


edit: and what is this filibustering you speak of

edit2: i also like how china is criticizing us politics now.

Otter Mii-kun
July 30th, 2011, 04:36 PM
Lulz. The Democrats are now filibustering their own plan the Senate, while Obama is threatening to veto everything that comes to his desk. So much for compromise, eh?
Like I said, that's what happens when everybody's (especially the Tea Party Republicans) dealing in absolutes ("It's either my way or no way!")
I bet this will have a huge impact on the elections. worst of all on our economy and I don't think it will be a positive one either...we should vote those who weren't willing to compromise out of public office for causing this mess...
Three days left...can they do it in time?
I'd expect a collapse with hyperinflation any moment soon-especially after August 1.
Problem is, even if they all get voted out, we'd probably get even worse "representatives". Like it's said, vote out the bums, get new bums.
Things are looking really bleak right now-and will be even worse if they don't get their act together!
Until the Republicans are willing to remove tax loopholesDoubt that's ever gonna happen. Even the Democratic majority in both houses last Congress couldn't seem to close the Reverse Morris Trust tax loophole I mentioned at the start of this thread. (which is exploited when the divesting corporation's shareholders end up with a majority stake in the post-transaction corporation that bought the divested assets.)

FreakyLocz14
July 30th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Republicans and democrats to soon find common ground. (link) (http://cdn.theatlanticwire.com/img/upload/2011/07/29/crsbr110727.gif)

This is also an interesting read. (link) (http://money.cnn.com/2011/07/29/news/economy/debt_ceiling_reid_boehner/index.htm?iid=EAL)


edit: and what is this filibustering you speak of

edit2: i also like how china is criticizing us politics now.

My bad for not providing a link.
Here it is. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2011/jul/30/democrats-enforce-filibuster-against-own-debt-bill/)

G.U.Y.
July 30th, 2011, 05:30 PM
My bad for not providing a link.
Here it is. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2011/jul/30/democrats-enforce-filibuster-against-own-debt-bill/)

Republicans filibustered it. Democrats are just enforcing it. Either the Republicans or Democrats enforce it, I don't see why it matters which one does it because if the Democrats weren't, the Republicans will.

Democrats do the same thing for most of what the Republicans filibuster, it just gives them some degree of control over their own bill. Mainly just to say to Republicans "Haha, you don't get to." A bit sad, really. :/

backpackomg
July 30th, 2011, 05:48 PM
you guys are picking sides as badly as the sides can't come to a compromise. they're both at fault, if the republicans are too prideful to come to a compromise at this time, in the interest of the country the democrats should be the better side and just follow through with it. two things can happen, one it ends up turning out good, or two it fails and the republicans realize that they need to compromise. right now we just look stupid to the rest of the world.

Black Ice
July 30th, 2011, 07:52 PM
The democrats are catering to the republicans' wants to some extent, though (see Reid's proposal). And the republicans are just waiting for the democrats to fold to them completely. Which may or may not happen. Obama still has the option of the 14th amendment, but White House keeps saying no.

I can't find the source that had the proposal outlined. If I do, I'll edit this post.


edit: this'll have to do (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/boehner-v-reid-proposals-compare-and-contrast-cheat-sheet)

Boehner's proposal has the potential to run out of steam by campaigning season next year, thus starting this crisis all over again, and then two battles have to be handled at the same time. Not a good idea.

FreakyLocz14
July 30th, 2011, 09:47 PM
The only plan I like so far is Cut, Cap, and Balance. While the debt ceiling does need to be raised, we also need to address the root of the problem: out of control spending.

Went
July 31st, 2011, 12:10 AM
The only plan I like so far is Cut, Cap, and Balance. While the debt ceiling does need to be raised, we also need to address the root of the problem: out of control spending.

Tax cuts caused 3tn of the debt. I think that's also something worth looking into. Oh, and two wars.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/2hz3dw6.jpg
Source: The Guardian.

FreakyLocz14
July 31st, 2011, 01:15 AM
Tax cuts caused 3tn of the debt. I think that's also something worth looking into. Oh, and two wars.

http://oi53.tinypic.com/2hz3dw6.jpg
Source: The Guardian.

Obama has expanded the wars that Bush started, so the blame on that issue is mutual at best.

Raising taxes now on small businesses would skyrocket our already near 10% unemployment.

Alot of those things, like TARP and Medicare Part D, were Democratic proposals. They occurred during the 110th Congress. Bush condeded stuff to Congress, in exchange; they took stuff like impeachment off the table while Congress continued to fund the wars.

Anders
July 31st, 2011, 01:17 AM
The only plan I like so far is Cut, Cap, and Balance. While the debt ceiling does need to be raised, we also need to address the root of the problem: out of control spending.

What I don't understand is why republicans want to make drastic cuts, when we could easily just make modest tax increases and modest cuts, instead of just focusing all of our attention on just the one.

Mr. X
July 31st, 2011, 07:29 AM
The only plan I like so far is Cut, Cap, and Balance. While the debt ceiling does need to be raised, we also need to address the root of the problem: out of control spending.

Keyword, BALANCE. Its not balanced unless tax loop holes are removed as well.

That said, Democrats are NOT trying to increase taxes. They are trying to remove loopholes that the extremely rich (Read - Oil companies) abuse to they don't have to pay large portions of their taxes.

How the republicans think making groups pay taxes that they should be paying anyway is a increase i'll never know. You know what happens to (average) people who don't pay their taxes? Yep, they go to jail.

So, to begin the flame wars, stuff like this is why Communism would be better. At least then we are only ruled by one corrupted person, instead of entire groups. And, at least something would get done. Might not be the right or even the best thing but at least stuff would get done.

FreakyLocz14
July 31st, 2011, 10:09 AM
What I don't understand is why republicans want to make drastic cuts, when we could easily just make modest tax increases and modest cuts, instead of just focusing all of our attention on just the one.

Raising taxes on small businesses and large employers would destroy the job market.

"Wait. We only want to raise taxes on the wealthy."

Your definintion of "wealthy", anyone making $250,000 a year, encompasses most small businesses who are treated as individuals because they are incorporated. That's your nail salons, barber shops, mom and pop grocery stores, local restaurants, etc.

donavannj
July 31st, 2011, 11:25 AM
Obama has expanded the wars that Bush started, so the blame on that issue is mutual at best.

So you consider a pull-out from Iraq as expanding the wars? You do have to keep in mind inflation when considering why expenses on something rise, you know.

Raising taxes on small businesses and large employers would destroy the job market.

"Wait. We only want to raise taxes on the wealthy."

Your definintion of "wealthy", anyone making $250,000 a year, encompasses modt small businesses who are treated as individuals because they are incorporated. That's your nail deshons, barber shops, mom and pop grocery stores, local restaurants, etc.

This issue is due to an oversimplification of the tax code brought about during Reagan's presidency. What needs to happen is that we need to redo the tax code such that individuals making $250,000 a year aren't in the same tax bracket as millionaires and billionaires, as that income level is increasingly becoming the "middle-class" due to a combination of inflation and a general trend where the earnings gap between the wealthy and the poor is rising considerably causing what is currently considered the middle-class to shrink.

FreakyLocz14
July 31st, 2011, 11:52 AM
We don't need tax brackets at all. We need a flat income tax rate with maybe some write-offs for legitimate purposes.

Black Ice
July 31st, 2011, 07:41 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_SHOWDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-31-20-38-46

tl;dr no tax hikes for rich, no loopholes closed, a plan to last only until 2012, cuts to defense, debt ceiling raised, social security and medicare untouched

looks like you got what you wanted. or you didn't get what you didn't want. idk. at least there aren't any immediate cuts to entitlement programs though!

legitimate purposes
lol

FreakyLocz14
July 31st, 2011, 08:36 PM
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_DEBT_SHOWDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-31-20-38-46

tl;dr no tax hikes for rich, no loopholes closed, a plan to last only until 2012, cuts to defense, debt ceiling raised, social security and medicare untouched

looks like you got what you wanted. or you didn't get what you didn't want. idk. at least there aren't any immediate cuts to entitlement programs though!


lol


We should have cut entitlements deeper. We don't have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem!

Went
August 1st, 2011, 01:10 AM
Except a spending issue can be fixed by getting more revenue? The US still has a lower tax burden than the average of the OECD countries. It's just 0.2, but that's a lot of money looking at the US' GPD.

m2287
August 1st, 2011, 10:19 AM
i agree with

1. Having unlimited debt is stupid - it makes it so you have no major reason to fix a failing economy.
2. Both Republicans and Democrats are at fault. They won't work (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showthread.php?t=258584#) together.

Bela
August 1st, 2011, 10:51 AM
We don't have a revenue problem.

Yes we do! Tax rates are at some of their lowest! Thank the Bush Tax cuts and that horrible tax cut "deal" the President caved in on last December.

We have a spending problem!

End the wars we're fighting and repeal the Bush tax cuts!

You say things are Democratic proposals and that President Obama extended the Bush Tax cuts or expanded the wars as if that absolves them of being issues; it doesn't lol.

The President is so weak and it's an embarrassment. He capitulates to the Republicans at every turn. Who cares what the President did or what the Democrats supposedly proposed--the wars need to be ended and those tax cuts need to be repealed. To have the knee-jerk reaction that something is what the other "side" did is just partisan hackery and not an interest in a real debate.

Also "Cut, Cap and Balance" is just balancing the budget on the backs of the middle class and asks nothing from the wealthiest in this country, those who have been doing tremendously well in the midst of an economic crisis.

You could go with the Progressive Caucus' plan that Bernie Sanders advocates, but I'm afraid you'll just dismiss raising taxes on the wealthy and cutting the military budget as nothing more than a job-killing crusade or some such nonsense.

Such is the way of arguing with a conservative partisan.

Mr. X
August 1st, 2011, 02:38 PM
Just for the hell of it, Mr. X's plan to fix our revenue issues. And other various things.

1. Slash military spending drasticly. There is no need to keep a entire force of legalized killers and/or rapists on government payrole (You hear of the iraqui women that some sodiers raped just for the hell of it? Yah.) That said, if we DO get attacked then send out the missiles. Blow our enemies all to hell.

2. As Loz said earlier, get rid of tax brackets. Lets intoduce a more stable/fair/reliable tax system. Lets say... We tax you $.05 for every dollar you make. You make 36000 a year you pay 1800 in INCOME tax (Not taking into account property taxes)

3. Tax churches, or at least, those that buy freaking jumbo jets saying that they are going to use it to do 'gods' work. There is no need for a church to have a jet... What they gonna do, drop bibles over some country to spread the word?

4. Death taxes. Make them just like my above tax idea, $.05 for every dollar.

5. Get the rid of pork barrel spending. Almost all of it is useless (Pickle technology for example... really wtf?)

6. Redo SSI completely. Instead of each person drawing from a big fund, they will draw from their own funds. Lets say that you work for 50 years, and every payday (assuming 1 month) $50 of your check was put into your fund. You retire, you get the entire fund. Seems fair to me.

7. Lets STOP buying oil from other countries. If we taped our oil deposits more we would have enough to last us for a good long time. That said, no need to give our money (that can be used for other things) to some middle east country.

8. Lets keep religion seperate from politics. If you are agenst something, give us reasons that are NOT related to the bible or your religious bedtime story of choice.

9. With religion removed, we can now research more technologies that were previously not allowed to ONLY because of religious objections.

10. Increase the required milage per gallon on new cars immediately (within 5 years) and have the minimum millage increase by one mile per year. This will sve people money that they can spend on goods to help the economy.

11. What ever happened to american made goods? 5 out of every ten items I buy (except for food stuffs) was made in china. We DONT need to import american designed goods from another country people. How about we make our own damn junk from now on? This will also help solve the jobs issue.

12. Lets get rid of some of these mexicans who jump the boarder. Make it a requirement for ANYONE who is looking for ANY job to provide a valid id, birth certificate and if applicable a work visa, naturilization papers, or any other legal document showing just how you are a american citizen. You hire someone who isn't a legal citizen, you get tossed into jail or have your entire buisnuess shut down.

13. This is not related to the above idea's for jobs and revenue but do we REALLY need all these golf courses? Just land going to waste for a stupid sport (Really... Hit a ball, chase after it, hit it again... This is a sport why?)

14. As above, but for nascar... Really, watching a car going 200 miles in a circle? I admit that its proably one of the only places you can see a 26 car pile up and not be in it but still... this excitiing event rarely happens.)

Black Ice
August 1st, 2011, 06:29 PM
^notsureifcompletelyserious.jpg

3 - Agree.
5 - Agree.
6 - Isn't this 401(k) or am I high or something?
7 - Short answer, it's better to waste others' reserves before ours.
8 - It's called being non-conservative.
9 - See above.
10 - Minimal increase.
11 - If you want prices to be 9128648291x more expensive, sure.
12 - Good in principle except no one is going to follow it. Like how it is right now.
13 - LMFAO
14 - LMFAO

FreakyLocz14
August 1st, 2011, 06:47 PM
Just for the hell of it, Mr. X's plan to fix our revenue issues. And other various things.

1. Slash military spending drasticly. There is no need to keep a entire force of legalized killers and/or rapists on government payrole (You hear of the iraqui women that some sodiers raped just for the hell of it? Yah.) That said, if we DO get attacked then send out the missiles. Blow our enemies all to hell.

2. As Loz said earlier, get rid of tax brackets. Lets intoduce a more stable/fair/reliable tax system. Lets say... We tax you $.05 for every dollar you make. You make 36000 a year you pay 1800 in INCOME tax (Not taking into account property taxes)

3. Tax churches, or at least, those that buy freaking jumbo jets saying that they are going to use it to do 'gods' work. There is no need for a church to have a jet... What they gonna do, drop bibles over some country to spread the word?

4. Death taxes. Make them just like my above tax idea, $.05 for every dollar.

5. Get the rid of pork barrel spending. Almost all of it is useless (Pickle technology for example... really wtf?)

6. Redo SSI completely. Instead of each person drawing from a big fund, they will draw from their own funds. Lets say that you work for 50 years, and every payday (assuming 1 month) $50 of your check was put into your fund. You retire, you get the entire fund. Seems fair to me.

7. Lets STOP buying oil from other countries. If we taped our oil deposits more we would have enough to last us for a good long time. That said, no need to give our money (that can be used for other things) to some middle east country.

8. Lets keep religion seperate from politics. If you are agenst something, give us reasons that are NOT related to the bible or your religious bedtime story of choice.

9. With religion removed, we can now research more technologies that were previously not allowed to ONLY because of religious objections.

10. Increase the required milage per gallon on new cars immediately (within 5 years) and have the minimum millage increase by one mile per year. This will sve people money that they can spend on goods to help the economy.

11. What ever happened to american made goods? 5 out of every ten items I buy (except for food stuffs) was made in china. We DONT need to import american designed goods from another country people. How about we make our own damn junk from now on? This will also help solve the jobs issue.

12. Lets get rid of some of these mexicans who jump the boarder. Make it a requirement for ANYONE who is looking for ANY job to provide a valid id, birth certificate and if applicable a work visa, naturilization papers, or any other legal document showing just how you are a american citizen. You hire someone who isn't a legal citizen, you get tossed into jail or have your entire buisnuess shut down.

13. This is not related to the above idea's for jobs and revenue but do we REALLY need all these golf courses? Just land going to waste for a stupid sport (Really... Hit a ball, chase after it, hit it again... This is a sport why?)

14. As above, but for nascar... Really, watching a car going 200 miles in a circle? I admit that its proably one of the only places you can see a 26 car pile up and not be in it but still... this excitiing event rarely happens.)

While we do have some common ground, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you on some points.

1) No death taxes! These taxes are unfair and wrong. You paid taxes while you earned that money, and you paid taxes while you saved it. You shouldn't have to pay taxes three times on the same money. Twice is bad enough.

2) Nonprofits are tax-exempt for a reason. They provide charitable services to the needy. We shouldn't take money away from that.

3) Taking religion out doesn't have anything to do with fiscal issues, but you can't prevent people from voting just because some of their decisions might be motivated by religion. That's unconstitutional and extreme.

Mario The World Champion
August 1st, 2011, 09:11 PM
I'm all for not buying anymore oil from the Middle East, but we can't utilize our resources we might have because the bleeding hearts will start crying for Johnny Polar Bear in Alaska and the fear of another BP oil spill in the gulf. The Gulf coast is probably still paying the price for BP's stupidity!

However, you missed one point, Mr. X. We should stop sending money to Afghanistan! Have you heard of the reports that some of that money is going to terrorists? We gave them probably over a billion dollars and it sickens me that some of that money is being used to kill our troops over there.

About Golf Courses and NASCAR tracks, I don't give a crap about golf, but NASCAR... Why not revamp the older tracks to increase the capacity to prevent newer, cookie cutter tracks from being built. And nowadays people don't want a NASCAR track in their area, all thanks to NIMBY. As you can see, I'm a NASCAR fan.

And now I'm going to filibuster whether to go to sleep or not.

Dragonite Ernston
August 2nd, 2011, 08:17 AM
As I'm typing this, the Senate is now voting on the bill to raise the debt limit and instate those cuts.

aperso
August 2nd, 2011, 08:31 AM
There is a bigger problem if the sente in the US can't fix the problem the bigger problem is the whole world could become in danger of a very expencive bill.
(If only everyone knew how to share fairly there'd be no need for money and there wouldn't be this big problem)

Livewire
August 2nd, 2011, 09:30 AM
We should have cut entitlements deeper. We don't have a revenue problem. We have a spending problem!

I don't even.

The revenue problem is the whole reason we're in this mess. The federal government can't pay its bill because it receives next to nothing in tax revenue. It's why under Clinton we had that nice fat budget surplus.

aperso
August 2nd, 2011, 10:04 AM
From what the BBC have said: The US sente have decided to increase the defaset so the goverment can pay off their debt

Esper
August 2nd, 2011, 11:10 AM
It passed in the Senate. Now maybe we can get back to having a government doing something useful.

I really, I mean really, hope that the tea partiers aren't going to do this to every single thing they don't like. I'm quite disgusted that they could take the economy hostage like they did, and get away with a lot of it. I blame Boehner and other less crazy Republicans for not standing up to them, but also Obama for bending over backwards to a lot of these outrageous demands. I know some Republicans are going to be upset that they couldn't stick the knife in deeper, but really, y'all got more than you deserved.

FreakyLocz14
August 2nd, 2011, 12:24 PM
It passed in the Senate. Now maybe we can get back to having a government doing something useful.

I really, I mean really, hope that the tea partiers aren't going to do this to every single thing they don't like. I'm quite disgusted that they could take the economy hostage like they did, and get away with a lot of it. I blame Boehner and other less crazy Republicans for not standing up to them, but also Obama for bending over backwards to a lot of these outrageous demands. I know some Republicans are going to be upset that they couldn't stick the knife in deeper, but really, y'all got more than you deserved.

They did the right thing. They knew Obama would cave eventually, so they successfully stopped taxes from being raised.

Mario The World Champion
August 2nd, 2011, 12:35 PM
The Tea Party don't care about what happens. They just want their way like the spoiled brats they are and hold this country hostage. Sure, they don't care, but what about the rest of us Americans? Either way, we're still being screwed. Aren't the Tea Party members of the middle class? Or are they secretly the upper class who want to run this country?

They make me sick! And don't give me that "they did the right thing" crap either. Most of them don't even have careers in politics. Hell, one of them was working in a pizza joint before being brainwashed by those fascists.

FreakyLocz14
August 2nd, 2011, 01:08 PM
The Tea Party don't care about what happens. They just want their way like the spoiled brats they are and hold this country hostage. Sure, they don't care, but what about the rest of us Americans? Either way, we're still being screwed. Aren't the Tea Party members of the middle class? Or are they secretly the upper class who want to run this country?

They make me sick! And don't give me that "they did the right thing" crap either. Most of them don't even have careers in politics. Hell, one of them was working in a pizza joint before being brainwashed by those fascists.

That's the beauty of them. They're not career politicians corrupted by the political machine. They're everyday citizens like you and I.

Mario The World Champion
August 2nd, 2011, 01:22 PM
Everyday citizens who are blinded by their own views to see the real picture. They are the ones who basically corrupted the Republican caucus with their destructive rhetoric.

Limewire, please close this thread. I think this "discussion" is finished. The debt ceiling is raised, we avoided disaster. The end.

Black Ice
August 2nd, 2011, 02:46 PM
They did the right thing. They knew Obama would cave eventually, so they successfully stopped taxes from being raised.
can't tell
That's the beauty of them. They're not career politicians corrupted by the political machine. They're everyday citizens like you and I.
if trolling

lol (http://i.imgur.com/uEG5M.png)

It's sad how people are calling this a victory though. When it comes to the point when preventing the ****ing economy from crashing is a "victory," something has to be changed.

FreakyLocz14
August 2nd, 2011, 03:28 PM
can't tell

if trolling

lol (http://i.imgur.com/uEG5M.png)

It's sad how people are calling this a victory though. When it comes to the point when preventing the ****ing economy from crashing is a "victory," something has to be changed.

I agree. Obama needs to realize that raising taxes on small businesses will devastate our already devastated job maket.

The partisan bickering needs to stop. The American people elected a new Congress so that we can get spending under control and not raise taxes.

Mr. X
August 3rd, 2011, 03:19 PM
The big corperations that are abusing tax loopholes need to use those 'savings' to create more jobs.

But yah, im all up for controling spending. Lets slash all military spending. All medicare. All social security. All education spending. Lets slash everything that we spend money on. While were at it, lets cut all taxes as well. We've slashed all spending so we no longer need all of these taxes.

I guarentee you that if we do this the country will be worse off then it is now. But hey, Republicans are all for cutting spending and reducing taxes... So, according to them, doing this should solve all our problems.

You know what we should do? Lets slash the Presidents pay. And the pay of all the senate and house members. Do you think your slash happy republicans will support this?

Also, you hear about all them airport workers who were layed off since congress/senate/whatevergroup didn't approiate funds for them? They had their budget 'slashed' in a since and all it caused was a loss of jobs.

Also related to air travel. This tax that effected the price of plane tickets expired. Seems simple, no tax, tickets be cheaper. Guess what... The air travel companys (most of) just increased the price of tickets to what it was with the tax. Yah. So please explain this... you could say that this company got a tax break. How will this directly/quickly help the average person?

Dragonite Ernston
August 3rd, 2011, 07:27 PM
But yah, im all up for controling spending. Lets slash all military spending. All medicare. All social security. All education spending. Lets slash everything that we spend money on. While were at it, lets cut all taxes as well. We've slashed all spending so we no longer need all of these taxes.

The problem with that is that you'd still need some taxes to pay off all those debts that people were fixing the budget over in the first place. :/

Oryx
August 3rd, 2011, 07:35 PM
The problem with that is that you'd still need some taxes to pay off all those debts that people were fixing the budget over in the first place. :/

He was being sarcastic and exaggerating, as you can tell by the following sentence.

Also, amusing Onion article that I enjoyed a lot relating to the deal: Clicky (http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-debt-ceiling-deal-required-tough-concessions,21067/)

FreakyLocz14
August 4th, 2011, 01:55 AM
The big corperations that are abusing tax loopholes need to use those 'savings' to create more jobs.

But yah, im all up for controling spending. Lets slash all military spending. All medicare. All social security. All education spending. Lets slash everything that we spend money on. While were at it, lets cut all taxes as well. We've slashed all spending so we no longer need all of these taxes.

I guarentee you that if we do this the country will be worse off then it is now. But hey, Republicans are all for cutting spending and reducing taxes... So, according to them, doing this should solve all our problems.

You know what we should do? Lets slash the Presidents pay. And the pay of all the senate and house members. Do you think your slash happy republicans will support this?

Also, you hear about all them airport workers who were layed off since congress/senate/whatevergroup didn't approiate funds for them? They had their budget 'slashed' in a since and all it caused was a loss of jobs.

Also related to air travel. This tax that effected the price of plane tickets expired. Seems simple, no tax, tickets be cheaper. Guess what... The air travel companys (most of) just increased the price of tickets to what it was with the tax. Yah. So please explain this... you could say that this company got a tax break. How will this directly/quickly help the average person?

The point of spending cuts are not to benefit the average person right away. The point is to get the national debt under control.

Mr. X
August 4th, 2011, 05:16 AM
Also related to air travel. This tax that effected the price of plane tickets expired. Seems simple, no tax, tickets be cheaper. Guess what... The air travel companys (most of) just increased the price of tickets to what it was with the tax. Yah. So please explain this... you could say that this company got a tax break. How will this directly/quickly help the average person?

No more tax. Loss in revenue for the government. Airline uses this opportunity to jack up the price of tickets to the rate it was with the tax.

Explain to me how them going this will help the national debt. All it seems to have done was cause the US to lose revenue, with the average person still paying the exact same thing they were before.

And, what it your view on slashing the pay of the President and all members of congress/senate/house? They are paid with government money and slashing their pay will save money so it is a great idea if the republicans are to be beleived.

donavannj
August 4th, 2011, 05:51 AM
They lost $1 billion in tax revenue to save $16 million, so it's a deficit increase that doesn't save the public any due to airlines being able to rely on the fact that most people won't hear about this tax cut or will forget about it very quickly. Seems like a loss for the public and the government, while it's a win for the airlines.

Mr. X
August 4th, 2011, 09:26 AM
And like all other companies that have tax breaks, abuse tax loopholes, or take advantage of a tax expiring, they will not use the additional savings and/or increased revenue to create jobs.

Now do you see why im all for removing tax loopholes that multi-million and/or multi-billion dollar corperations?

But then again, most republicans get campaign funds from the above companies so its no suprise that they are all for allowing tax loopholes to remain.

I don't care much for politics, but Locz... Based upon the views i have shown in this thread (and others were we have disagreed), what political party to you think I belong to?

Oryx
August 4th, 2011, 09:37 AM
And like all other companies that have tax breaks or abuse tax loopholes, they will not use the additional savings and/or increased revenue to create jobs.

This is the real problem with the tax breaks, and especially the loopholes. In the case of the loopholes, I don't think that the company even feels like that money has to be used to benefit others, because they found the loophole themselves.

The jobs aren't being created now that we're getting out of the recession because the companies learned to live without them. Why would they pay more people to do the job that obviously less people can do? The goal of a company is to make money. It's nice and optimistic and all to believe that if you give a company money, it will eventually benefit the people, but in the end the company will use that money to make more money, not to help people in a way that trickles down.

And the government can't micromanage every big corporation to make sure that they're using their tax breaks in a responsible way that helps the economy, so they just give the breaks and...hope for the social conscience of the CEO to kick in?

Mr. X
August 4th, 2011, 09:48 AM
This is the real problem with the tax breaks, and especially the loopholes. In the case of the loopholes, I don't think that the company even feels like that money has to be used to benefit others, because they found the loophole themselves.



Greed. But still... a good number of loopholes are known about yet they are never going to be fixed due to the republicans.


The jobs aren't being created now that we're getting out of the recession because the companies learned to live without them. Why would they pay more people to do the job that obviously less people can do? The goal of a company is to make money. It's nice and optimistic and all to believe that if you give a company money, it will eventually benefit the people, but in the end the company will use that money to make more money, not to help people in a way that trickles down.



Greed plays a part in this. They get used to the additional money, and as long as its profitable to use one person to do the jobs of three or four it will remain that way. That said, its also more profitable to send jobs to other countries where people will do the work for a LOT less. Do these savings that the company makes get passed on to the consumers? No. Will the government ever do anything to prevent this from happening? Doubt it. Illegals jump boarder and do work cheap, thats why some orginizations are agenst better boarder control. That said, some illegals are actully jumping to boarder back to mexico due to how bad things have gotten.

[quote]And the government can't micromanage every big corporation to make sure that they're using their tax breaks in a responsible way that helps the economy, so they just give the breaks and...hope for the social conscience of the CEO to kick in?[\QUOTE]

Its a requirement that any CEO lack a social conscience... Remember, their goal isn't to help the people, their goal is to make as much money for their corperation as possiable.

To end this, under Clinton we had budget surpluses. They vanished with Bush. We would have been having surpluses under Obama but he's been worrying about fixing the messes that Bush left him... and the fact that the republicans will attempt to stop anything he tries to do unless he only agrees to things that they want... No matter how good his idea's are, or how bad the repbulican idea's are. Checks and ballances... Great theory, but its failing since each side hates each others guts.

Livewire
August 9th, 2011, 08:32 AM
S&P downgraded the US' credit rating in the days after the debt ceiling was passed, great. And with that, the DOW fell 600 points yesterday. Eveeeen better.

So, John Boehner, where's that economic fix you've been promising?

Netto Azure
August 9th, 2011, 08:48 AM
I'm not really one to trust the Credit Rating agencies for nothing. Toxic Derivatives was given AAA+ ratings along with Lehman Brothers days before that house of cards fell down. >.>

Still IMO S&P is just using it's clout to lobby for policies that are quite unpopular according to polling. :U

And jeez that 600 point drop in the Stock Markets is pretty close to the drop back when the Bank Bailout bill was shot down. Maybe it's a good thing Congress is in recess ATM. :/

Livewire
August 9th, 2011, 09:35 AM
I'm not really one to trust the Credit Rating agencies for nothing. Toxic Derivatives was given AAA+ ratings along with Lehman Brothers days before that house of cards fell down. >.>

Still IMO S&P is just using it's clout to lobby for policies that are quite unpopular according to polling. :U

And jeez that 600 point drop in the Stock Markets is pretty close to the drop back when the Bank Bailout bill was shot down. Maybe it's a good thing Congress is in recess ATM. :/

There was rumor floating around on MSNBC that Obama may have to recall Congress from its recess, but I'm wondering what good that would do.

Mr. X
August 9th, 2011, 10:40 AM
Nothing. Both sides would just start bit... um, bickering at each other and even if they do accomplish something it would be to late anyway.

And people wonder why I like communism. I'll just say it here and now. Under communism, stuff gets done. Might not be the right thing, might not be the best thing, but still stuff gets done. Which is a lot more then can be said about our government. And before you say anything about giving up our rights, remember how many we have already given up for our safety and what good ol Ben Franklin said about that.

Netto Azure
August 9th, 2011, 10:55 AM
There was rumor floating around on MSNBC that Obama may have to recall Congress from its recess, but I'm wondering what good that would do.

What Mr. X said.

If this Congress stretched the Debt Ceiling vote until the last minute and the Tea Partiers killing the so-called Grand Compromise a week before that (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2082971,00.html). It's no use calling Congress into session.

The only thing that can end the so called uncertainty is if one party controls both houses of Congress and the White House by the end of the 2012 elections. At least then you'll have an idea of what the heck is going to happen.

Livewire
August 10th, 2011, 09:48 AM
Nothing. Both sides would just start bit... um, bickering at each other and even if they do accomplish something it would be to late anyway.

And people wonder why I like communism. I'll just say it here and now. Under communism, stuff gets done. Might not be the right thing, might not be the best thing, but still stuff gets done. Which is a lot more then can be said about our government. And before you say anything about giving up our rights, remember how many we have already given up for our safety and what good ol Ben Franklin said about that.

Maybe if our 2 party system wasn't as heavily flawed as it is, things could get done in a more orderly fashion. the only way to get things done effectively is with a supermajority. So in essence, you need to totalitarian aspect of it.

Also dropping off the little tidbit that Congress just had the worst approval rating of all time, following last weeks events. An 82% Disapproval rating.