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Hikamaru
February 15th, 2012, 11:09 PM
As comes with every new generation, some TMs are removed and replaced with something else.

But Black & White got rid of some TMs people considered awesome and replaced it with a move that sucks.

Here are the new TMs for Black & White, and if it replaced a 4th Gen move, the move they replaced:

TM01 Hone Claws > Focus Punch
TM03 Psyshock > Water Pulse
TM09 Venoshock > Bullet Seed
TM19 Telekinesis > Giga Drain
TM23 Smack Down > Iron Tail
TM34 Sludge Wave > Shock Wave
TM43 Flame Charge > Secret Power
TM47 Low Sweep > Steel Wing
TM48 Round > Skill Swap
TM49 Echoed Voice > Snatch
TM51 Ally Switch > Roost
TM55 Scald > Brine
TM58 Sky Drop > Endure
TM59 Incinerate > Dragon Pulse
TM60 Quash > Drain Punch
TM62 Acrobatics > Silver Wind
TM67 Retaliate > Recycle
TM72 Volt Switch > Avalanche
TM76 Struggle Bug > Stealth Rock
TM78 Bulldoze > Captivate
TM79 Frost Breath > Dark Pulse
TM82 Dragon Tail > Sleep Talk
TM83 Work Up > Natural Gift
TM93 Wild Charge
TM94 Rock Smash (previously a HM)

These moves remain unchanged:

TM02 Dragon Claw
TM04 Calm Mind
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM08 Bulk Up
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM12 Taunt
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM20 Safeguard
TM21 Frustration
TM22 SolarBeam
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM28 Dig
TM29 Psychic
TM30 Shadow Ball
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM35 Flamethrower
TM36 Sludge Bomb
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM50 Overheat
TM52 Focus Blast
TM53 Energy Ball
TM54 False Swipe
TM56 Fling
TM57 Charge Beam
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM63 Embargo
TM64 Explosion
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM70 Flash
TM71 Stone Edge
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM74 Gyro Ball
TM75 Swords Dance
TM77 Psych Up
TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM84 Poison Jab
TM85 Dream Eater
TM86 Grass Knot
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Pluck
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM92 Trick Room

Were you disappointed with the new TM list?

I was disappointed with the removal of Iron Tail - that essentially ruins the chance of someone copying the moveset of Ash's Pikachu.

Also, Dark Pulse and Dragon Pulse didn't deserve being replaced. I hope those two awesome moves get reinstated in 6th Gen.

Ephemeral Euphoria
February 15th, 2012, 11:20 PM
Quite frankly I hate most of the new TMs with a burning passion, only ones that are even passable IMO would have to be Psyshock, Scald, and Volt Switch. The others are either meh moves that should have been their own TMs instead of replacements if you ask me or so crap that they shouldn't even be moves to begin with much less TMs but hey that's my opinion blabbering on there.

Skylerguns
February 15th, 2012, 11:38 PM
Most of TM's suck, so the only way to get a powerful move set is by breeding. It really sucks :(

Forever
February 16th, 2012, 01:09 AM
Good girl :3

OKAY SO I'm replying mostly from a competitive sense (and slightly nostalgic), so yay!

Firstly, I'd say Hone Claws and Focus Punch both can be good except for the fact that I thought it was still Focus Punch the other day loool. Psyshock is definitely 100x better than Water Pulse, and I like that it can be used on Pokemon. Venoshock idk what it does and for that fact I consider it useless, but to ME Bullet Seed was always useless, lol. Wtf @ Telekinesis? Giga Drain is much better and so much useful, okay now the dumb is starting to set in. >__>; Smack Down isn't that great imo, but nor is Iron Tail really BUT GENERATION 2 ;__; Sludge Wave... nah, Shock Wave is better. Flame Charge is boring but so is Secret Power so idc. Low Sweep can be "okay" but really, STEEL WING IS NOSTALGIA WHAT ARE YOU DOING GAME FREAK.

Round is okay, Skill Swap is not. So I'm fine with that, except for the fact that Round = ALWAYS IN CHALLENGE CUP. Seriouslyyy. Echoed Voice too! Snatch idk I never used it. NO MORE ROOST? Okay no wonder gen 5 Pokemon suck at recovering. ;; I love Scald, hate Brine, purely because of the amazing burn effect. Sky Drop, meh. Endure was meh too. lolwhat@loss of Dragon Pulse. AND DRAIN PUNCH WAS GREAT TOO FFFF. Acrobatics is good at least, expecially on Tornadus and other things :3; Uhhh Volt Switch is amazing. Now... onto the sad one. Stealth Rock is amazing and I'd love it if more generation 5 Pokemon could learn it, but no, Game Freak had to go ahead and suck. Dark Pulse is great unlike Frost Breath idk what it even does. Dragon Tail is good and so is Work Up. And finally, Wild Charge is great on Emboar and stuff!!

Oh yes, and Rock Smash to TM = great.

From a completely competitive sense, some of the changes are good tbh, but some just really... are wtf. XD

PlatinumDude
February 16th, 2012, 02:22 AM
I was seriously disappointed when Focus Punch, Stealth Rock, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Drain Punch and Giga Drain got replaced because those moves were rather good in Gen IV and the latter 2 got power boosts during the generation shift. I was rather happy when they changed Brine to Scald because Brine wasn't that useful to begin with.

Hikamaru
February 16th, 2012, 02:32 AM
I was seriously disappointed when Focus Punch, Stealth Rock, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Drain Punch and Giga Drain got replaced because those moves were rather good in Gen IV and the latter 2 got power boosts during the generation shift. I was rather happy when they changed Brine to Scald because Brine wasn't that useful to begin with.

Yeah PlatDude, I agree with you.

Drain Punch getting replaced with Quash was epic fail and no Unova Pokemon actually learn Quash.

Hone Claws I find more convenient than Focus Punch.

Getting rid of Dark Pulse to make way for Frost Breath was dumb, and the only Pokemon apart from Mew and Smeargle that learn it are all Ice-types. At least Lucario can pick up Dark Pulse from move relearners now.

Stealth Rock getting replaced by Struggle Bug was terrible, and the latter doesn't hit that hard (only 30BP).

Dragon Pulse being taken over by another lackluster move, Incinerate. EPIC FAIL.

Giga Drain getting replaced by Telekinesis was probably because they wanted more double/triple battle support moves.

Smack Down replacing Iron Tail basically kills our chance of having a Pikachu with an Ash's Pikachu moveset meaning if we want a Pikachu knowing Iron Tail, it has to be Poke Transferred... maybe I'll just let my Pikachu learn Slam/Return for something close.

Also, I wasn't happy with Sludge Wave, Togekiss can no longer learn damaging Electric attacks :( Replacing Shock Wave totally cut down Togekiss's movepool a little more. Now it can't learn damaging Ice, Poison and Electric attacks unless if it had a Hidden Power of that type or used a move of that type with Metronome.

Sky Drop is also worthless, not that many Pokemon learn it and they tend to be fully-evolved Flying-types (except Rufflet).

Blue Nocturne
February 16th, 2012, 03:05 AM
Sludge Wave struck me as being completely redundant with the existence of Sludge Bomb (at the very least they could have replaced bomb with wave, it's better in almost every way).

I'm not that into competitive gaming, so I wasn't too crushed by the loss of Stealth Rock, though what they replaced it with (Struggle Bug) is almost completely useless...

I'm not going to bother with talking about some of my major disappointments (Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse, Giga Drain, etc.) since they've already been covered, but my disappointment comes mainly from the lacklustre TM's that they didn't change, such as Flash, Frustration, Psych Up, and Charge Beam. All of these are, in my opinion, far too situational in use or just plain useless. Steel Wing, Iron Tail, Shock Wave, Sleep Talk, etc. are far more deserving of TM status that the junk that they've kept.

Omgwtfhaxmon
February 16th, 2012, 06:00 AM
GameFreak seem to have trolled as per. Volt Switch was a great addition though. I miss Stealth Rock, Dragon Pulse, and Natural Gift (used to love messing with that move on some Pokemon and the fact this generation it'd help Gyara slaughter the boring and overrated Ferrothorn is a plus) but at the same time I'm thankful we can use TMs more than once now. I'm willing to take that addition over the removal of some amazing TMs, though I'm hoping next gen we'll get to use TMs as many times as we want, alongside receive TMs that are more worth repeated use.

Blue
February 16th, 2012, 06:07 AM
No, I love the new TMS... it's better than having the same over and over, I love Bulldoze, Hone Claws & Acrobatics.

Clairissa
February 16th, 2012, 07:46 AM
The removal of Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Shockwave and Steel Wing were the worst for me, some of my favorite moves, would've been nice to just get some new TMs instead of replacing them.

My biggest gripe is the TM placement, Flamethrower can't be obtained until you get to Abundant Shrine, which is after you beat Ghestis.

Cassino
February 16th, 2012, 01:05 PM
I would think Game Freak 'balanced' the technical machines for their debut as re-usable devices and will restore some of the older moves in the future. I feel some are very much baseless, for instance Rock Polish. The removal of Steel Wing was strange as it occupied the same number since the second generation. Ultimately, I'm not disappointed nor impressed; many moves that were TMs can be bred from monsters that know them from the fourth generation anyway.

Superjub
February 16th, 2012, 01:17 PM
The only one I really noticed that it was missing was Dark Pulse. Mainly because my Hydreigon doesn't have a special Dark-type move. :( Not all of them are bad, but I didn't realise Giga Drain, Steel Wing, Iron Tail and Dragon Pulse were replaced. I like those moves a lot. D:

Blue
February 16th, 2012, 02:29 PM
I didn't realise Giga Drain & Dark Pulse were removed, they're great! ;/

Alpha King
February 16th, 2012, 02:52 PM
I love most of the new TM's, but I'm not happy with the removal of dark pulse D:

I love Low Sweep and Bulldoze so YAY FOR THEM

OmegaRuby and AlphaSapphire
February 16th, 2012, 04:07 PM
The only new one's I actually like were Acrobratics, and Scald. The rest were quite disappointing...I would rather have had them keep the gen IV order...

Porygon Z
February 16th, 2012, 04:25 PM
I like the new TMs, I just miss Dragon Pulse and Stealth Rock. :(

Hikamaru
February 16th, 2012, 05:19 PM
The removal of Giga Drain, Drain Punch, Shockwave and Steel Wing were the worst for me, some of my favorite moves, would've been nice to just get some new TMs instead of replacing them.

My biggest gripe is the TM placement, Flamethrower can't be obtained until you get to Abundant Shrine, which is after you beat Ghestis.

Yeah, I hated having some TMs only available after beating the Elite Four, N and Ghetsis. It annoyed me, especially with Psychic, Energy Ball, Flamethrower, Earthquake and Ice Beam.

|Torch|
February 16th, 2012, 06:29 PM
I just started to get back to playing and noticed the same. TM's on Black/White are not what i would have like to have seen, but its a franchise at I'm still amazed that they have been able to continue with it. Even now in 2012. But yeah big disappointment no doubt about it. :L

PokeRaidenFighter350Z
February 16th, 2012, 07:04 PM
Removing those good TMs such as Iron Tail, Drain Punch, Dragon Pulse, Dark Pulse... it destroyed the possibilities for good movesets for the new Pokemon. Why can't I have a an Iron Tailing Mienshao or a Dark Pulsing Liepard or a Giga Draining Simisage? GAME FREAK, why did you remove such good TMs and replaced them with moves that I find useless?

Some TMs deserved to be replaced anyway. I like the new attacks, Low Sweep and Bulldoze because it slows the enemy down on every strike. Now my Arcanine can learn a Ground attack besides Dig.

ManaphyLv100
February 16th, 2012, 11:06 PM
Finally, Stealth Rock is gone! I hate that move so bad... mainly because Fire and Ice are two of my favourite types.

No Roost = ;_; Seriously, what were they thinking? And Ally Switch is just... No.

If more things could learn Frost Breath, I'd love it. It's a great move. I was planning on trying it with Kingdra... But no. Oh well, that would just have been TOO OP.

The rest I'm fairly relaxed about.

Xander Olivieri
February 17th, 2012, 12:50 AM
They actually picked the over used TMs that showed too much power and game breaking abilities to remove. The TM list update was a tactical one as the designers have been making more Competitive changes.

Forever
February 17th, 2012, 12:53 AM
Why can't I have a an Iron Tailing Mienshao or a Dark Pulsing Liepard or a Giga Draining Simisage?

Oh yes, Liepard @ Nasty Plot w/ Dark Pulse would be awesome. Not really a fan of the other two, but that one definitely would be awesome! :(

@XanderO: I personally don't feel they're more competitive changes. Removing Stealth Rock certainly isn't a positive for those who play competitively, for one. ;x Also, Drain Punch/Dragon Pulse/Giga Drain/Dark Pulse are nowhere near game-breaking, imo.

giradialkia
February 17th, 2012, 01:05 AM
I was hugely delighted that TMs had been made permanent in Black and White, but otherwise I found most of the actual move changes were quite unwelcome. I guess they felt change was necessary or something, seeing as the initial 50 from the 4th generation were also used in the 3rd generation, so another generation with the same TMs might have seemed a bit silly to the makers?
As most have said, I miss the likes of Shock Wave, Giga Drain, Iron Tail, and basically any other TM that taught a damaging move.

bobandbill
February 17th, 2012, 04:42 AM
The one real positive in hindsight for me was that TMs became perma-items.

Otherwise I disliked the TM changes. Sure, some moves were neat to have, and there's no point pretending that the first 80+ didn't have their fair share of rubbish moves too. And I suppose it would be weird every gen to add on more and more moves and end up with over a 100 separate TMs.

But the main reason I disliked it is the consequence of ditching the old ones; you could no longer transfer any items (thus far for bw anyways) from 4th gen games to 5th, because the TMs between two games were different. This I found quite annoying; Game Freak could surely have easily just placed a restriction on TMs and not any item whatsoever. And I liked being able to use old TMs too, and the lack of any transferal of them (not even a representation of them in Move Tutors) I found disappointing (but not too surprising given it felts that BW had been rushed out in various aspects including this one).

Alli
February 17th, 2012, 06:41 AM
TM19 Telekinesis > Giga Drain
TM23 Smack Down > Iron Tail
TM47 Low Sweep > Steel Wing
TM48 Round > Skill Swap
TM51 Ally Switch > Roost
TM59 Incinerate > Dragon Pulse
TM60 Quash > Drain Punch
TM76 Struggle Bug > Stealth Rock
TM79 Frost Breath > Dark Pulse

Quoted the changes I hate. I actually got a Dark Pulse Gyarados on Diamond the other night to specifically transfer to Black and breed a Dark Pulse Deino lol. :( NOW. It'd be a lot easier if Frost Breath, the dumbest move ev-- k not ever, didn't have to take its place. >:o

Chiar
February 17th, 2012, 08:00 AM
It really angers me that they swapped useful moves with very situational attacks like Telekinesis, Ally Switch or Incinerate. Most of the other changes are okay, though.

Xander Olivieri
February 17th, 2012, 10:27 AM
Sadly a lot of the attacks aren't well known for what they can do.

Telekinesis is a 3 turn Lock On/Mind Reader. For the duration of Telekinesis low accuracy attacks are auto hits.

Ally Switch comes in handy for Triple Battles if you have a match up you don't like and cannot switch out your Pokemon.

Frost Breath is an instant Critical, but it on a Sniper Pokemon and you can cause some serious damage. Either way its Base Power thanks to its Critical is the same as Dark Pulse

Smack Down is Anti-Levitate which is good if you are using a Pokemon with Earthquake in a Double or Triple Battle.

Sludge Wave is one of a few new moves that require the opponent to be under Status effects. If Poisoned its power Doubles, with how common Poison Status is in Wifi Battles, this is a decent attack.

Flame Charge, while overwhelmingly weak later on, it is Agility + Fire Damage.

Struggle Bug and Snarl are also two really good TMs if you know how to use them. They automatically lower Special Attack. Psychics hit by either of these get substantial damage done and lose an edge in their own attacks.

Incinerate is anti-Berry Tactics.

All of the attacks have decent uses and replaced some of the attacks that Gamefreak didn't want to run rampant in the Wifi Community. Stealth Rock, while thinned out, was potentially game breaking in online battles, I mean nearly everything that was used in Wifi could use it. Still a large number of Pokemon can learn it.

Dark and Dragon Pulse were the same way. The Creators saw them as too big of a threat.

A few of the creators do design a lot of the new aspects with the Meta in mind, from memory one of the creators enjoys the meta and is fairly involved with it. Pokemon has had a very slow increase in potential with its online battles and Gamefreak just keeps trying to improve it with each new game.

Tachikaze
February 17th, 2012, 10:48 AM
Unova's TM's are kind of bad, compared the the previous ones. In a generation with ridiculously powerful Pokemon, it doesn't make sense to provide most supplementary and gimmicky TMs. Serperior needs things like Earthquake or Dragon Pulse, not Grass Oath, lol.

Cassino
February 17th, 2012, 12:53 PM
Frost Breath is an instant Critical, but it on a Sniper Pokemon and you can cause some serious damage. Either way its Base Power thanks to its Critical is the same as Dark Pulse
Additionally, for those who may not know: in always being critical it ignores stat modifiers (lowered user's special attack and heightened foe's special defence, namely).

PokeRaidenFighter350Z
February 17th, 2012, 01:03 PM
Well the only time Frost Breath doesn't deal critical damage is if it's used on a Pokemon with Battle/Shell Armor, I have that move on my Lapras and I think my Dewgong. And @Xander: I thought Venoshock deal double damage on Poisoned targets. I don't understand the aspects of competitive battling. It makes me feel like this game is to be played seriously...

Xander Olivieri
February 17th, 2012, 04:29 PM
Well the only time Frost Breath doesn't deal critical damage is if it's used on a Pokemon with Battle/Shell Armor, I have that move on my Lapras and I think my Dewgong. And @Xander: I thought Venoshock deal double damage on Poisoned targets. I don't understand the aspects of competitive battling. It makes me feel like this game is to be played seriously...

My bad. I was thinking of Venoshock when talking about Sludge Wave.

Although Sludge Wave is the second highest Poison attack on the list if you don't count a Poisoned Foe getting hit by Venoshock.

miltankRancher
February 17th, 2012, 05:18 PM
TM23 Smack Down > Iron Tail
TM51 Ally Switch > Roost
TM59 Incinerate > Dragon Pulse
TM60 Quash > Drain Punch
TM76 Struggle Bug > Stealth Rock
TM79 Frost Breath > Dark Pulse


I am pretty much disappointed by these replaces. i mean, SR is really a good lead move, and now they removed it, thereby limiting its distribution. Also, the others were good moves and were replaced by sub-quality moces. I mean, Ally Switch? Quash? Frost Breath is a good move, but Dark Pulse is way more better.

SirDevin
February 17th, 2012, 06:49 PM
Omg I miss iron tail that was my shizz but good thing you can find a way to breed a move on a Pokemon with all the different types! Which makes chances for some pokemon to learn crazy different typed moves which I love cuz now it's a lot more difficult to predict a battle

Forever
February 25th, 2012, 07:34 PM
I just had an idea... since the new games = sequels, maybe the TMs we didn't have will be available in those games, maybe they weren't "developed" in Unova yet? I kinda like that idea, since removing all those TMs I'm still not a fan of. ;x

何贤豪
February 26th, 2012, 02:05 AM
Well, I don't have any problems with the new TMs, but...Giga Drain being removed is something that a DW Venusaur would really hate.

skyluigi2
February 26th, 2012, 07:52 AM
To be honest, I think the reason for this is that TMs aren't broken after one use now.

MoreThanLuck
March 10th, 2012, 09:50 PM
I think anything they did is made up for in the fact that TMs are reusable.