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View Full Version : Isn't Blissey kinda underrated in competitive battling?


OreoMaster
May 20th, 2012, 01:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urJIcjOFC-E

This video. Nothing else. Blissey took so many physical attacks from such strong Pokemon. Okay, if the user's opponent wasn't a newbie, he would at last manage to kill Blissey with Electivire. It is so much common to see an Electivire with Thunder Punch or Cross Chop rather than Thunder. But just see Blissey's toughness! She is certainly Bold with max Def .

Anyway, apart from the video I made a bunch of calculations in smogon's damage calc and it turned up that Blissey can withstand almost any attack aimed at it albeit STAB Fighting kills it - She can survive Low Kick and especially Mach Punch from Hitmonchan though.

She isn't that bad. With max Def she can take physical hits just like max HP Scizor and Spiritomb. She is so versatile with her huge movepool(although physical attacks aren't its cup of tea). She can be a great Sp.Wall and Cleric and Supporter. Wish, Protect, Toxic/Thunderwave, Block(with Toxic), Softboiled, Heal Bell, Counter(it really works and almost always results in OHKO), Heal Pulse, Healing Wish etc etc
Her movepool is so big it allows her to utilize anything she likes. Calm Mind and then sweep. BoltBeam with Serene Grace and Softboiled. Defense Curl or Charm to make it even more tolerant to physical assaults. EVERYTHING!! She can use so many Sp.Attacks with her very acceptable Sp.Att.

Also, she can have variety in her stats. I mean, okay, you always max her Def but then you can either max its HP if you are going to use Wish or max its Sp.Def to make it impenetrable. Or you can split the remaining EVs to both HP and Sp.Def. Or you can split it to Sp.Att and HP. Everything works. Just don't put any in Speed or Att.

So isn't she a bit underrated? I mean look at her. She is so useable and sturdy. Everyone is like 'Blissey is fugly and bad. She dies after a poke' ..

DispenserJustice
May 20th, 2012, 04:40 PM
To answer your question
NO.
Everybody uses Blissey in competitive play and the ones who don't, understand how amazing it is. Tbh, I don't know why you would think people think it's not great.

Forever
May 20th, 2012, 04:47 PM
It really depends on the team you want. Full on HO doesn't really need Blissey, while stall teams generally do make use of it. HO is probably most common (well, I'd assume so) which could explain why you in particular barely see it?

TheFallenUmbreon
May 20th, 2012, 05:51 PM
Of course not! Blissey is one of the toughest Pokemon known. Like a wall made of steel, it can withstand ALOT of attacks. People who don't see Blisseys true advantage, are the ones who need to learn more about defense. This also includes Wailord...

Wolf in the Rain
May 20th, 2012, 06:13 PM
Due to Evolite, it's really outclassed by Chansey (It's only real benefit is leftovers recovery, but thanks to soft-boiled, recovery is very easy) but Blissey is used ALL the time by people. I tend to not like it because, although it's a Spec Def monster and has a bajillion (yes) HP, it's defense is pretty paper thin (BUT HP!!) And has no real source of damage outside of Toxic and Seismic Toss... So it's kinda a one-trick-pony. This makes other walls that have a little more variety, such as Jellicent, a little more desirable. Still, great staller.

Musica
May 21st, 2012, 03:15 AM
Blissey is not underrated. With the current generation, there are just more Pokemon on the offensive side rather than defensive, and thanks to Eviolite, the pre-evolved forms of defensive Pokemons are given the chance to shine. Blissey is just rarely used now, but it was never underrated. It is still considered as a top threat (defensively) because it is very annoying with its bulkiness and a wide move pool of annoying attacks such as T-Wave, Toxic, Softboiled, and even Wish (if you had the Event Chansey back in R/S/E). Blissey only outclasses Chansey since the latter cannot utilize other attacks than Seismic Toss, but Eviolite Chansey can take Physical Attacks better so it can use Counter.

OreoMaster
May 21st, 2012, 03:56 AM
Well okay guys. She is not Underrated in the way you got it. She is still so great at taking special hits and she has humongous HP. She is still a precious Supporter and Sp.Wall.

What I say, is that everyone underrates her ability to take physical hits. I have said that a zillion times but here it is again. When you max her Def and give her a Bold nature she can take physical hits just like a max HP Bold Spiritomb and Scizor or a max Def Bold Spiritomb and slightly more than Scizor.

She can take so many physical hits.
Did you know that a max Def & HP, Bold Blissey can take a max Att Adamant Regigigas/Slaking STAB Giga Impact and a STAB Dynamic Punch(yes) from a max Att Adamant Machamp?? - Albeit, she is going to be like a zombie after these.

Yet everyone says that she falls to physical hits so easily. Think about it. Her role and main reason she was made was to be a Sp.Wall. Yet she can take physical hits as well, although it is not her cup of tea.

Can Skarmory, whose role is to take physical hits, absorb special attacks too? Not really.

Musica
May 21st, 2012, 04:07 AM
I tried to do some calculations and Blissey is OHKO'ed 50% of the time by D.Punch from Machamp. Roughly 9% left HP and she isn't going to do anything more than that, even if Blissey uses a recovery move while taking a DynamicPunch. Machamp can equip Bullet Punch and take that 9% HP left. That's just calculations on 1 on 1 basis though since you mentioned Machamp. But that is Machamp, it can take a hit and cripple Dragonite not carrying Lum Berry and even a Choice Haxorus (but it can OHKO with Outrage however). If you want to know more how Blissey can take a Physical Hit, I suggest you experiment more with it! :D

I found a calculator a while ago and I want you to also experiment with it.
http://masara.byethost15.com/SilverlightDmgCalcTestPage.html

wolf
May 21st, 2012, 09:26 AM
Do you have a fetish for high HP stats?

Can Skarmory, whose role is to take physical hits, absorb special attacks too? Not really.
Skarmory can wall weak as well as resisted special attacks. There's a reason specially defensive Skarm was the most popular variant last generation. Skarm was able to wall bulky Waters and weaker types of Celebi, Shaymin, etc. It could also sponge Draco Meteors too. Heck, it could probably beat Gengar (without HP Fire) one-on-one.

Back on topic though, everyone realizes that Blissey can absorb physical hits decently, but that doesn't mean she beats any of them. Every decent physical attacker is able to 2HKO her. That gives her a chance to do something before fainting...but what exactly can she do to the opposing Pokémon? Losing 100 HP from Seismic Toss or being Toxic'd isn't a very big deal compared to losing your main special wall. Just because she can survive some physical hits doesn't mean she can beat any physical attacker. Not to mention you will risk losing Blissey just to do that. The best she can do is Toxic stall the opponent with Wish and Protect, but any remotely strong physical Pokémon will still win regardless.

SoulRed12
May 21st, 2012, 10:58 AM
Honestly, I never hit blissey unless I know it will OHKO her, because I know otherwise she'll status me or heal herself with softboiled and leftovers. So her physical defensive capacities never really impress me. If I can't OHKO her, I'll just taunt and toxic her, and wait for her to die or switch out. Eventually she'll be the last one left and then I can toxic her and she can't switch out to heal it with natural cure.

But yeah. Skarmory is a MUCH better physical wall. Why do you think Skarmbliss was (is?) so popular?

You don't want to be relying on blissey to soak up physical attacks, because if the opponent can at least 2HKO you, and catches you on the switch, you'll have to switch out and come back in later at low HP.

And also remember that blissey loses 12.5% of her HP (and that's A LOT for her) plus whatever spikes are on the field, so that has to be factored into what physical attacks can KO her.

She can survive Low Kick and especially Mach Punch from Hitmonchan though.

But most pokes who use low kick do it because it's the only fighting move available to them (otherwise they would use e.g. close combat or hammer arm). Also, Hitmonchan wouldn't use Mach punch on blissey, he'd use close combat.

So I'd say, can blissey take physical hits? Sometimes, if they're weak enough. But if they're weak enough, I personally wouldn't bother using them since every blissey carries softboiled or wish/protect.

OreoMaster
May 21st, 2012, 01:44 PM
Okay, lets take that from the beginning. And please, read till the end.

First of all, I never said that Blissey is effective and should be used as a Physical Wall. That's insane and suicidal. I just said that,for a Special Wall with such a horrible Def, she can take physical hits quite well. The only way to OHKO her is to use a strong Fighting move from a strong Fighting Pokemon. Non-STAB Fighting moves on her may inflict some damage but they won't be lethal.

As for Machamp here it is Musica.

Max Attack, Adamant Nature, STAB DynamicPunch from Machamp does 92.3% - 109.1% damage to a max HP, max Def Bold Blissey. Mind you, Machamp doesn't hold Life Orb. Of course, you DON'T let you poor Blissey in with a physical sweeper and especially if it's a Fighting type. And yes after SR damage or Sandstorm she will die but that's not the case. We're talking about how well she endures hits under normal conditions.

I repeat. I don't do all these, to convince you that Blissey can be a physical wall. No. It's just to see that Blissey can take an unexpected physical hit.

And now, I will post some damage calculations.
* All from Smogon Damage Calculator.
** The Attacking Pokemon aren't holding an item unless it is written and in bold
*** Blissey is always Max Def, Max HP, Bold Nature.

--


Max Att Adamant STAB Giga Impact Slaking vs Blissey - 79.6% - 93.8%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Technician STAB Bug Bite Scizor vs Blissey - 61.5% - 72.4%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Cross Chop Scizor vs Blissey - 91% - 107.3% ( Still has a chance to survive)
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Meteor Mash Metagross vs Blissey - 70.2% - 82.8%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB Zen Headbutt Metagross vs Blissey - 74.9% - 88.2%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb DynamicPunch Metagross vs Blissey - 81% - 95.5%
Max Att Adamant Thick Club STAB Earthquake Marowak vs Blissey - 65.7% - 77.5% ( His Att reaches 568)
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Crabhammer Kingler vs Blissey - 61.5% - 72.4%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Aqua Tail Gyarados vs Blissey - 51.8% - 61.1%
Max Att Adamant +3 Att STAB Waterfall Gyarados vs Blissey - 88.4% - 104.2% (Has a big chance of survival). *With +2 Att it does 70.7% - 83.3%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Stone Edge Rampardos vs Blissey - 70.7% - 83.3%
Max Att Adamant STAB Head Smash Rampardos vs Blissey - 81.7% - 96.2%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Rock Wrecker Rhyperior vs Blissey - 93.8% - 110.5%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Megahorn Rhyperior vs Blissey - 57.7% - 67.9%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Earthquake Groudon vs Blissey - 76.1% - 89.5%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Brave Bird Staraptor vs Blissey - 77.3% - 91.2%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Stone Edge Tyranitar vs Blissey - 69.9% - 82.4%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB Crunch Tyranitar vs Blissey - 74.5% - 87.8%
Max Att Adamant Superpower Tyranitar vs Blissey - 74.5% - 88%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB X-Scissor Scizor vs Blissey - 72.8% - 85.9%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Outrage Dragonite vs Blissey - 72.7% - 85.7% * With Choice Band it does 83.8% - 98.7%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att Life Orb Earthquake Dragonite vs Blissey - 80.7% - 95% *Without Life Orb but with +4 Att it does 93.1% - 109.7%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Megahorn Heracross vs Blissey - 68.9% - 81.2% * With Choice Band it does 79.6% - 93.8%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Sucker Punch Absol vs Blissey - 54.6% - 64.4%

Anti
May 21st, 2012, 01:54 PM
calcs and all the rest

None of this actually contradicts anything Wolf said in his final paragraph especially, and that basically was a /thread post.

Is there really any purpose in arguing whether not Blissey can occasionally take a physical hit? We're arguing about nothing lol.

Antebellum
May 21st, 2012, 02:59 PM
nah honestly skarm has kinda taken a fall from grace this gen since all the new fighting types mienshao roob terrak etc can all break through it with a little pressure, and cb terrak cc and mienshao hjk both 2hko
spdef skarm is mainly used to set spikes on stuff it normally wouldnt be able to spike on, such as gastrodon, hp fire celebi and shaymin etc, and even then I remember pdc telling me its pretty overrated as it stands
anyways blissey taking physical hits is only a one time thing, it cant continually take them, plus a more balanced spread in terms of def and spdef is optimal this gen as there are more potent special attackers such as specstoed, specs latios, psyshock alakazam and the like. if you want to have a special wall that can use its hp for taking physical hits better, then use eviolite chansey, which is generally better overall, but it's niche really only lies in rain or sun stall teams since the 6% from sand or hail [since it has eviolite and not lefties] really becomes detrimental throughout a match

tj4bigred
May 21st, 2012, 03:09 PM
Max Att Adamant STAB Giga Impact Slaking vs Blissey - 79.6% - 93.8%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Technician STAB Bug Bite Scizor vs Blissey - 61.5% - 72.4%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Cross Chop Scizor vs Blissey - 91% - 107.3% ( Still has a chance to survive)
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Meteor Mash Metagross vs Blissey - 70.2% - 82.8%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB Zen Headbutt Metagross vs Blissey - 74.9% - 88.2%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb DynamicPunch Metagross vs Blissey - 81% - 95.5%
Max Att Adamant Thick Club STAB Earthquake Marowak vs Blissey - 65.7% - 77.5% ( His Att reaches 568)
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Crabhammer Kingler vs Blissey - 61.5% - 72.4%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Aqua Tail Gyarados vs Blissey - 51.8% - 61.1%
Max Att Adamant +3 Att STAB Waterfall Gyarados vs Blissey - 88.4% - 104.2% (Has a big chance of survival). *With +2 Att it does 70.7% - 83.3%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Stone Edge Rampardos vs Blissey - 70.7% - 83.3%
Max Att Adamant STAB Head Smash Rampardos vs Blissey - 81.7% - 96.2%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Rock Wrecker Rhyperior vs Blissey - 93.8% - 110.5%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band Megahorn Rhyperior vs Blissey - 57.7% - 67.9%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Earthquake Groudon vs Blissey - 76.1% - 89.5%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Brave Bird Staraptor vs Blissey - 77.3% - 91.2%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Stone Edge Tyranitar vs Blissey - 69.9% - 82.4%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB Crunch Tyranitar vs Blissey - 74.5% - 87.8%
Max Att Adamant Superpower Tyranitar vs Blissey - 74.5% - 88%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att STAB X-Scissor Scizor vs Blissey - 72.8% - 85.9%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Outrage Dragonite vs Blissey - 72.7% - 85.7% * With Choice Band it does 83.8% - 98.7%
Max Att Adamant +2 Att Life Orb Earthquake Dragonite vs Blissey - 80.7% - 95% *Without Life Orb but with +4 Att it does 93.1% - 109.7%
Max Att Adamant Life Orb STAB Megahorn Heracross vs Blissey - 68.9% - 81.2% * With Choice Band it does 79.6% - 93.8%
Max Att Adamant Choice Band STAB Sucker Punch Absol vs Blissey - 54.6% - 64.4%


To be fair, only two of those Attacks are even super effective, and all of them leave Blissey to be KO'd the very next turn if it doesn't heal off damage immediately. I get that Blissey takes hits better than a lot of Pokémon, but why not just go to a better physical wall and leave Chamsey to sponge special attacks like it does best?

OreoMaster
May 22nd, 2012, 02:35 AM
First of all, we are not arguing about nothing. Arguing about nothing would be discussing whether Blissey can take a special attack,not physical. The whole point is to show whether Blissey can withstand an unexpected strong physical hit and survive so as to either use Softboiled and switch out or use Counter and kill the foe.

Furthermore, tj4bigred you are not being fair. You do realise that Blissey has a chance of surviving against a Choice Banded Scizor's Cross Chop and a Life Orb Metagross DynamicPunch, right? As I said before, Blissey can also take a Machamp's DynamicPunch, albeit without an item.

You completely ignore the fact that Blissey doesn't get OHKOed after such powerful STAB attacks from the most powerful attackers ever,including Rhyperior, Slaking and Rampardos. She survives. And they either hold a Choice Band or a Life Orb or their Att is boosted. She can take Rock Wrecker, Head Smash, Giga Impact, Megahorn, Thick Club Earthquake and all of them STAB from extremely strong opponents.

Her role isn't being a physical wall, I remind. But she can take an unexpected hit and switch or counter back.

Forever
May 22nd, 2012, 02:43 AM
First of all, we are not arguing about nothing. Arguing about nothing would be discussing whether Blissey can take a special attack,not physical. The whole point is to show whether Blissey can withstand an unexpected strong physical hit and survive so as to either use Softboiled and switch out or use Counter and kill the foe.

Furthermore, tj4bigred you are not being fair. You do realise that Blissey has a chance of surviving against a Choice Banded Scizor's Cross Chop and a Life Orb Metagross DynamicPunch, right? As I said before, Blissey can also take a Machamp's DynamicPunch, albeit without an item.

You completely ignore the fact that Blissey doesn't get OHKOed after such powerful STAB attacks from the most powerful attackers ever,including Rhyperior, Slaking and Rampardos. She survives. And they either hold a Choice Band or a Life Orb or their Att is boosted. She can take Rock Wrecker, Head Smash, Giga Impact, Megahorn, Thick Club Earthquake and all of them STAB from extremely strong opponents.

Her role isn't being a physical wall, I remind. But she can take an unexpected hit and switch or counter back.

But those Pokemon you mentioned aren't in OU, which is Blissey's main tier. Also the two OU Pokemon you just mentioned - those attacks aren't even commonly on their sets so it shouldn't be brought into the picture. If you're comparing whether Blissey has okay defenses or not or not, then it should be based upon OU (and the most common sets) and not random Pokemon with high attack power because that's what Blissey is usually going to face, and therefore would influence your decision on whether to keep Blissey in or not.

OreoMaster
May 22nd, 2012, 04:08 AM
Requility, I understand what you say and I agree because indeed Blissey will rarely, if ever, going to face a Rampardos or a Slaking. But just think. I posted the damage that the most powerful attackers can do to Blissey with their most powerful STAB Attacks while also holding an Item. So if Blissey can take a Head Smash from Rampardos then it is very possible that she can take a Stone Edge from Terrakion or Earthquake from Landorus. Okay, she can't take Fighting attacks. I have made it clear long ago. But she still has a chance to Counter back a strong atack KOing out the foe.

The Pokemon I mentioned(Rampardos,Rhyperior etc) aren't OU not because of their Att stat but because of their total performance. They aren't good enough. But offensively speaking they are much stronger than any other OU Pokemon in terms of Att. So, since Att is the only stat that determines the damage a move will do to a Pokemon, I am pretty sure that Blissey can survive some hits from the not-as-strong OU physical sweepers.

Vrai
May 22nd, 2012, 04:14 AM
First of all, we are not arguing about nothing. Arguing about nothing would be discussing whether Blissey can take a special attack,not physical. The whole point is to show whether Blissey can withstand an unexpected strong physical hit and survive so as to either use Softboiled and switch out or use Counter and kill the foe.

Furthermore, tj4bigred you are not being fair. You do realise that Blissey has a chance of surviving against a Choice Banded Scizor's Cross Chop and a Life Orb Metagross DynamicPunch, right? As I said before, Blissey can also take a Machamp's DynamicPunch, albeit without an item.

You completely ignore the fact that Blissey doesn't get OHKOed after such powerful STAB attacks from the most powerful attackers ever,including Rhyperior, Slaking and Rampardos. She survives. And they either hold a Choice Band or a Life Orb or their Att is boosted. She can take Rock Wrecker, Head Smash, Giga Impact, Megahorn, Thick Club Earthquake and all of them STAB from extremely strong opponents.

Her role isn't being a physical wall, I remind. But she can take an unexpected hit and switch or counter back.

Hi. Blissey has base 255 HP. Keep in mind, that contributes quite a lot to your physical defense, even when you have to rely on a measly base 10 defense.

Also, Blissey is 2HKOed by all of those things (many of which aren't even relevant in this metagame...). The first two you mentioned in that post aren't even STAB moves (nor are they ever used...) and Machamp OHKOes Blissey after SR, unboosted. Rampardos? Head Smash does 874-1029 damage (122.4 - 144.11%), a guaranteed OHKO. Rhyperior has a guaranteed 2HKO after SR damage, as does Slaking (although who would even use that ever....). CB Scizor OHKOes all of the time with Superpower, and Cross Chop OHKOes after SR damage (why did you use Cross Chop as an example?). LO Metagross Hammer Arm (a non-STAB move) has about a 50% chance to OHKO after SR damage.

Physical walls (ie Skarmory, Gliscor, etc) can tank some neutral special attacks and retaliate, too. I don't know what you're arguing.

tj4bigred
May 22nd, 2012, 08:01 AM
Unexpected strong physical attack? If I'm using Blissey, I don't keep it in to use Softboiled against a Pokemon with high attack and a SE move.

And what good does barely surviving do when it's easily taken out the following turn? Yes, Blissey is a good Pokemon. But why are you trying so hard to convince people about its physical defense merits?

OreoMaster
May 22nd, 2012, 12:05 PM
Well I really don't know what is so, so hard to understand.

Vrai, the first two moves I mentioned in the post you quoted, aren't STAB indeed. They are Super-Effective. STAB increases the power of the attack by 1.5x while super effectiveness doubles it(2x). So logically a Cross Chop from Scizor does more damage to Blissey than a Technician Bug Bite. This applies to Metagross too. A STAB Meteor Mash from Metagross does less damage than a DynamicPunch to Blissey. So, I can't get why you are complaining about this.

Also the fact that some of the Pokemon aren't in OU and the attacks used are never used in competitive battling isn't a problem. They are still extremely powerful Pokemon(stronger than OU Pokemon) and they still use STAB powerful attacks. So if a Blissey can survive their super powerful STAB attacks then it can easily take a hit from an OU Pokemon which is weaker than Slaking and doesn't use attacks with 150 BP.
Oh and Rampardos doesn't OHKO her. I don't know what you did there but it really doesn't. Mind you, Rampardos doesn't hold an item.
Hammer Arm(a Non-STAB yet Super Effective attack) LO Metagross deals 81% - 95.5% damage. After SR, yes it can KO her. But I said before that we are talking only about the moves themselves. No SR,Sandstorm etc
And I used Cross Chop because everyone knows that a Superpower from Scizor OHKOs Blissey. It's no use stating the obvious.

Um, I don't know why you are underestimating the damage a non-STAB, Super Effective attack can do to Blissey. Actually an attack that is STAB yet not SE will do less damage than an attack(same BP) that is SE yet not STAB.
The only way for an attack to be both STAB and SE against Blissey is a Fighting Pokemon using a Fighting attack. In this case, I made it clearer than water that you should not even think about leaving her in and that she would never endure it.

So your complaints about the attacks being non-STAB is kinda moot.

tj4bigred, yes what is so odd about an unexpected physical attack? You know, not everyone is your typical smogon-movesets-for-ever battler. Some can get more creative and original. So he switches in a Pokemon that you would never suspect about using physical attacks. Yet there it goes and uses Stone Edge(example). See? It is unexpected. I never said leaving you Blissey in physical attackers.

Barely surviving is certainly better than dying. At least it can get the chance to switch in when a special attacker is in and use Softboiled or be passed a Wish or use Softboiled in the same turn so as to regain health and then switch back or even use Counter to kill the opponent.

Anyway, I am not trying too hard. I am just arguing with you and others.

Vrai
May 22nd, 2012, 01:44 PM
Well I really don't know what is so, so hard to understand.

Hi. Blissey can tank some physical hits, yes. Skarmory can tank some special attacks, too (Standard LO Starmie Thunderbolt vs SpD Skarmory: 206-244 (61.67 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). And so can Gliscor (LO Alakazam Psychic vs standard Gliscor: 249-294 (70.33 - 83.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Jirachi can tank some physical hits, too (Choice Band Terrakion vs SpD Jirachi: 292-345 (72.27 - 85.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)!

My point: What are you arguing? EVERY wall in the game can tank some non-STAB moves, even when they aren't EVed to handle them. Blissey is a good wall, yes. People know that. Blissey is reliably 2HKOed by every physical attack in the game. Living one or two doesn't make it some demigod of Pokemon, sorry.

Anyway, since you seem to like arguing, I'm okay with that. I'll dismantle your argument.

Vrai, the first two moves I mentioned in the post you quoted, aren't STAB indeed. They are Super-Effective. STAB increases the power of the attack by 1.5x while super effectiveness doubles it(2x). So logically a Cross Chop from Scizor does more damage to Blissey than a Technician Bug Bite. This applies to Metagross too. A STAB Meteor Mash from Metagross does less damage than a DynamicPunch to Blissey. So, I can't get why you are complaining about this.

I also understand that STAB moves do less damage than super effective ones; I'm not stupid. I'm saying that the fact that they are not STAB moves demeans their effectiveness of being examples. Surviving a Hammer Arm (hi, use the more accurate option please...) from Metagross isn't nearly the same thing as surviving one from, say, Conkeldurr, who gets STAB on the move. I know that super effective attacks do more damage.

Also the fact that some of the Pokemon aren't in OU and the attacks used are never used in competitive battling isn't a problem. They are still extremely powerful Pokemon(stronger than OU Pokemon) and they still use STAB powerful attacks. So if a Blissey can survive their super powerful STAB attacks then it can easily take a hit from an OU Pokemon which is weaker than Slaking and doesn't use attacks with 150 BP.

...ok. I don't even know what that said. ~

Oh and Rampardos doesn't OHKO her. I don't know what you did there but it really doesn't. Mind you, Rampardos doesn't hold an item.

Ok. This (http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html) is the calc I use. Rampardos with any kind of boosting item (ie. not choice scarf because scarf rampardos is garbage) will OHKO Blissey after SR damage (Jolly LO Head Smash: 690-813 (96.63 - 113.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Even an Adamant Choice Scarf set has a 60% chance to OHKO it after SR. Plus, Rampardos gets Superpower, which obviously cleanly OHKOes Blissey. Why wouldn't Rampardos hold an item? Are we playing Pokemon without items, now?

Hammer Arm(a Non-STAB yet Super Effective attack) LO Metagross deals 81% - 95.5% damage. After SR, yes it can KO her. But I said before that we are talking only about the moves themselves. No SR,Sandstorm etc

You always have to assume SR or at least one layer of Spikes is up. Entry hazards are far too central to the metagame to simply ignore them. If you don't, you're really, really unaware of competitive Pokemon.

And I used Cross Chop because everyone knows that a Superpower from Scizor OHKOs Blissey. It's no use stating the obvious.

What game is it that you're playing where you can decide what every Pokemon runs? I'd like to play it.

Let's use relevant examples, son. No one in their right mind uses Cross Chop Scizor; why use it as an example?

Um, I don't know why you are underestimating the damage a non-STAB, Super Effective attack can do to Blissey. Actually an attack that is STAB yet not SE will do less damage than an attack(same BP) that is SE yet not STAB.
The only way for an attack to be both STAB and SE against Blissey is a Fighting Pokemon using a Fighting attack. In this case, I made it clearer than water that you should not even think about leaving her in and that she would never endure it.

So your complaints about the attacks being non-STAB is kinda moot.

What? I don't even understand what you said here


tj4bigred, yes what is so odd about an unexpected physical attack? You know, not everyone is your typical smogon-movesets-for-ever battler. Some can get more creative and original. So he switches in a Pokemon that you would never suspect about using physical attacks. Yet there it goes and uses Stone Edge(example). See? It is unexpected. I never said leaving you Blissey in physical attackers.

wat

Barely surviving is certainly better than dying. At least it can get the chance to switch in when a special attacker is in and use Softboiled or be passed a Wish or use Softboiled in the same turn so as to regain health and then switch back or even use Counter to kill the opponent.

Anyway, I am not trying too hard. I am just arguing with you and others.

bringing blissey down to the point that entry hazards KO it upon switching in or that your special attacker can KO it will certainly leave a large impression on blissey and make it that much more difficult for the team to utilize her strengths

you're "not trying too hard"? you're eliminating examples based on personal fantasy (scizor using cross chop?) and trying to set up this argument so that you're always right (entry hazards don't count?). plus, people can just set up on blissey (lucario can just swords dance up on it while it does little in return and then OHKO with a +2 close combat).

YES blissey lives some physical hits but like i said earlier, it's 2HKOed by every prominent physical attack in the game. it's not a demigod of pokemon or whatever you're trying to say

Dark Azelf
May 22nd, 2012, 02:07 PM
Vrai pretty much said everything. Regardless im more concerned about the fact that no one has pointed out that Scizor doesnt even get Cross Chop...lol. =/

tj4bigred
May 22nd, 2012, 02:33 PM
Regardless im more concerned about the fact that no one has pointed out that Scizor doesnt even get Cross Chop...lol. =/

Scizor with Force Palm or Double Kick would be awesome. =P


To be fair, Blissey only takes 71.15% - 83.75% from Max Attack Adamant LO Iron Fist-boosted Hammer Arm from Arbok. It's pretty much the greatest Pokemon ever.

Anti
May 22nd, 2012, 07:27 PM
First of all, we are not arguing about nothing. Arguing about nothing would be discussing whether Blissey can take a special attack,not physical. The whole point is to show whether Blissey can withstand an unexpected strong physical hit and survive so as to either use Softboiled and switch out or use Counter and kill the foe.

...Except we all know Blissey can take a lot of physical attacks. We're clearly arguing about nothing. It's true.

It's no use stating the obvious.

I will leave you to deduce the unintentional but undoubtedly fun irony of this sentence.

donavannj
May 22nd, 2012, 07:58 PM
Sir, were you even aware of the competitive scene in Generations III and IV? Blissey was one of the most popular walls of that time period!

Arguing that Blissey is a pretty good wall is like saying New York is a colossally massive city: it's common knowledge that doesn't need to be stated. Even I, one who has never been much for competitive battling, know that fact quite well.

OreoMaster
May 22nd, 2012, 08:39 PM
Hi. Blissey can tank some physical hits, yes. Skarmory can tank some special attacks, too (Standard LO Starmie Thunderbolt vs SpD Skarmory: 206-244 (61.67 - 73.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). And so can Gliscor (LO Alakazam Psychic vs standard Gliscor: 249-294 (70.33 - 83.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Jirachi can tank some physical hits, too (Choice Band Terrakion vs SpD Jirachi: 292-345 (72.27 - 85.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)!

My point: What are you arguing? EVERY wall in the game can tank some non-STAB moves, even when they aren't EVed to handle them. Blissey is a good wall, yes. People know that. Blissey is reliably 2HKOed by every physical attack in the game. Living one or two doesn't make it some demigod of Pokemon, sorry.

Anyway, since you seem to like arguing, I'm okay with that. I'll dismantle your argument.

Vrai, I didn't start the whole thing just to make Blissey look like a super-Pokemon or something. But, I get quite upset when people are underestimating Blissey's ability to at least survive physical hits. Everyone says that she is defensively wimpy and is OHKOed by any physical attack. I didn't say she is the only one that can survive attacks she wasn't built to. It's just that, as soon as someone takes a glance at that miserable Def, he automatically forgets her ginormous HP.

I also understand that STAB moves do less damage than super effective ones; I'm not stupid. I'm saying that the fact that they are not STAB moves demeans their effectiveness of being examples. Surviving a Hammer Arm (hi, use the more accurate option please...) from Metagross isn't nearly the same thing as surviving one from, say, Conkeldurr, who gets STAB on the move. I know that super effective attacks do more damage.

But, I made it clear from the word go and I admitted it that she CAN'T take STAB Fighting attacks. She may survive a SE non-STAB Fighting attack but not a STAB SE Fighting one. So, let's forget about this. There is nothing to argue about since we both agree that can't take a STAB Fighting attack.

...ok. I don't even know what that said. ~

Okay, what exactly tortured your brain here? You previously stated that the Pokemon I used in my calculations aren't OU and nobody ever uses Giga Impact on Slaking. Yes, this is true. But, if Blissey can survive a STAB Giga Impact(150 BP) from a Slaking(His Att is higher than any OU Pokemon) then she can certainly survive any non-boosted, STAB attacks from any OU Pokemon, except Fighting I repeat. We are talking about Blissey withstanding a Pokemon's attacks. So I used the most extreme examples of raw attacking power to show her true defensive capabilities.

Ok. This (http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html) is the calc I use. Rampardos with any kind of boosting item (ie. not choice scarf because scarf rampardos is garbage) will OHKO Blissey after SR damage (Jolly LO Head Smash: 690-813 (96.63 - 113.86%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Even an Adamant Choice Scarf set has a 60% chance to OHKO it after SR. Plus, Rampardos gets Superpower, which obviously cleanly OHKOes Blissey. Why wouldn't Rampardos hold an item? Are we playing Pokemon without items, now?

Okay, Rampardos with Head Smash holding an item can kill her. But, I told you it's without an item. No, we are not talking about Pokemon without items but this examples with Rampardos was too much. I mean, few Pokemon can survive it's rough attacking force so you can't expect Blissey to do so. Yet, she can survive the hit itself if it's not boosted by LO. And, yes I have battled people who used Choice Scarf and even Focus Sash on him.

You always have to assume SR or at least one layer of Spikes is up. Entry hazards are far too central to the metagame to simply ignore them. If you don't, you're really, really unaware of competitive Pokemon.

I am not unaware. That's just not my aim. I started the topic to demonstrate that Blissey can take physical attacks decently well. Not whether she survives after SR and 3 layers of Spikes followed by an attack and Sandstorm. She can't survive all those. Yet, you can always Rapid Spin the hazards away.

What game is it that you're playing where you can decide what every Pokemon runs? I'd like to play it.

Let's use relevant examples, son. No one in their right mind uses Cross Chop Scizor; why use it as an example?

Well, as I said before, if Blissey can take a Cross Chop from Scizor then it can take his STAB attacks much, much better.

What? I don't even understand what you said here

Forget about it.

wat

Oh, that's harder than I expected it to be. Unexpected physical attack. Which part of the sentence didn't you get? Someone switches in Swampert. You think it's going to use SR or something but he straight forward attacks you with STAB EQ. That's an unexpected physical attack.

bringing blissey down to the point that entry hazards KO it upon switching in or that your special attacker can KO it will certainly leave a large impression on blissey and make it that much more difficult for the team to utilize her strengths

you're "not trying too hard"? you're eliminating examples based on personal fantasy (scizor using cross chop?) and trying to set up this argument so that you're always right (entry hazards don't count?). plus, people can just set up on blissey (lucario can just swords dance up on it while it does little in return and then OHKO with a +2 close combat).

YES blissey lives some physical hits but like i said earlier, it's 2HKOed by every prominent physical attack in the game. it's not a demigod of pokemon or whatever you're trying to say

Still, it's better to be there than dead and useless. What are you trying to get across? Is a fainted Blissey better than a barely alive one, which still has the chance to be revived?
To finish this up, I don't base on personal fantasy. I say that Blissey can survive hits themselves. Not with extra, indirect damage. Oh well, I explained this before.



Vrai pretty much said everything. Regardless im more concerned about the fact that no one has pointed out that Scizor doesnt even get Cross Chop...lol. =/ Hahaha I just put it in the calc and it accepted it. I don't know all of Scizor's attacks out by heart. Anyway, Blissey still survives. Even if he can't use that.

Scizor with Force Palm or Double Kick would be awesome. =P


To be fair, Blissey only takes 71.15% - 83.75% from Max Attack Adamant LO Iron Fist-boosted Hammer Arm from Arbok. It's pretty much the greatest Pokemon ever. So funny :)

...Except we all know Blissey can take a lot of physical attacks. We're clearly arguing about nothing. It's true.You should then say it from the beginning and not start arguing about it.

I will leave you to deduce the unintentional but undoubtedly fun irony of this sentence. Haha Okay this made me laugh :D

Vrai
May 22nd, 2012, 08:55 PM
...what is the purpose of this thread? If all you meant to say was that "hey cool look guys Blissey can take a few physical hits" that's cool and all but I think we have all come to that conclusion and thus can move on from whatever stupid argument is going on here. I apologize for whatever semi-hostile attitude i took for that post and yeah (also a post like this probably would have been better made in the DCC thread!)

also just re-echoing what i said in the very first paragraph of my response: Blissey isn't alone in the ability to tank hits that it wasn't supposed to (i gave you some examples), and it's definitely not underrated in that manner. anyone who says "blissey dies to a poke" or whatever phrase you used in the OP is clearly ignorant to the metagame and blissey's potential

also if you're impressed by blissey's ability to take physical hits, go take a look at chansey


also apologizing for my random capitalization/not capitalization i'm feeling sort of wonky

Musica
May 22nd, 2012, 10:41 PM
So, in conclusion, Blissey can take a Physical hit and survive BUT in some cases, cannot do anything after that but switch out. If it gets a hit that lessens its HP more than 50%, it should switch out or try to use Toxic, T-Wave or anything annoying before it dies. Following the thread title... Again, no, Blissey is not underrated. It's a team of six (in most cases) and Blissey is just one out of those six so there should be a lot of support (and love!) from its fellow Pokemon, especially if it's carrying Wish! Who wouldn't want half of Blissey's HP to be healed. It's almost like using a Max Potion! Wish Blissey is cool, but that's another story and a off-topic with the thread :D

OreoMaster
May 22nd, 2012, 11:50 PM
Okay the topic is pretty much over. Vrai, the thread was about what the title says. I wondered if you people also considered Blissey as frail as a kitten physically, because there are many people who do so. Anyway nothing else to discuss.

Oh and Vrai, your apologizes are accepted. I can understand why you got angry/irritated/hostile... Your nature is Adamant. Change that to Timid or Bashful!

wolf
May 23rd, 2012, 10:57 AM
Anyway nothing else to discuss.
There was nothing to discuss in the first place. "Blissey can survive most physical attacks." What about it? What is there to discuss? No one disagrees that she take most physical attacks and not faint; you are just arguing over nothing. It's like posting a thread saying "Skarmory has base 140 defense." Okay...? There is nothing to argue, because it's a fact. Anyway, closing this for reasons stated before.