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Azureth
June 29th, 2012, 10:48 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the original idea for TMs being able to just be used once so that people don't just put all the super powered moves on all of their pokemon? So by offering infinite TM usage doesn't that make it possible to be cheap and make your team OP?

A Sadistic Bastard
June 29th, 2012, 11:42 PM
Using all of the "super powered" moves on every pokemon limits coverage. When you limit coverage, you get walled easier. When you get walled easier, you get walled. When you get walled, you lose. Don't lose.

PokéSwimmer
June 29th, 2012, 11:51 PM
No. Single use TMs were just an annoyance, if anything. People would just trade for them if they wanted to hace a specific moveset on one of their 'mons.

Satoshi Ookami
June 30th, 2012, 12:04 AM
No, no and once more no.
Movepools of Pokémon are almost never sufficient so we need to use TMs and having just one meant incomplete moveset which was really annoying :/
If the movepools were better than there would be no need for infinite TMs but now it's neccessary and I love that they did it.

Flute
June 30th, 2012, 01:57 AM
I think all the TM's should be obtainable in shops, but definitely not infinite. Infinite is way too spoonfed.

Mana
June 30th, 2012, 04:19 AM
I think they made TMs infinite just to please meta-gamers/wifi battlers because there was less reason to hack/cheat to get your ideal Pokémon.

However, in light of the actual story-gameplay, I agree. It's all too easy to give a good TM to half your team. It means there is no thinking about what to use, like if you suddenly switched one Pokémon to another you could quickly mimic it's moveset.

I think, what they should have done, is make some kind of event post-elite 4 which turns all TMs into some kind of new item, which are then infinite.

PlatinumDude
June 30th, 2012, 05:34 AM
No, I don't think reusable TMs made anything overpowered because having single-use TMs was annoying and needed careful thinking on who it was used on. And I also second what A Sadistic Bastard said.

Halcyon
June 30th, 2012, 05:49 AM
I'm actually on the fence with this one.

I do like the infinite TMs because they're convenient, and I don't have to worry about using them on accident. However, getting the same move on a party of six in 5 minutes doesn't seem like the way to go either. It feels like all of the Pokemon then have the same advantage, and in my opinion can make the game less challenging. :/ Now to think of it, yeah, I agree doing that limits coverage, but that's meta game-wise, isn't it?

This might sound like a difficult request to fulfill, but maybe make the players earn the TMs instead, without having the TMs to be infinite or "one-time only"? Like the below poster mentioned, most of the stronger TMs are found post-game, so I wouldn't worry about it making things overpowered during the main storyline, if that's what you mean.

Alli
June 30th, 2012, 07:41 AM
So what if they're reusable? I think most people traded over TMs from their other game, got someone else to trade them extras, or hacked them in anyway. Get rid of that hassle, and we get this. I think it's a great feature. It's not really overpowered either. You get most of the really desirable TMs in the post game by doing annoying explorations. Flamethrower after Surfing and Waterfalling to Abundant Shrine, Earthquake after traversing through the latter parts of Desert Resort, etc. So yeah. I'm glad they made this feature. Besides, what made TMs break in previous generations? They're just like...CDs. That's like saying when you listen to a song on a CD, it's broken and you can never use it again.

Rivvon
June 30th, 2012, 08:24 AM
Using all of the "super powered" moves on every pokemon limits coverage. When you limit coverage, you get walled easier. When you get walled easier, you get walled. When you get walled, you lose. Don't lose.

Here's your answer right here.
Just because TM's are now of infinite usage doesn't make them better than before. If your argument that infinite TM's is OP because you can stick Hyper Beam on all of your fully evolved Pokemon then you're going to have a difficult time battling because you're limiting your team.

Infinite TM's does not make the game easy, it makes the game convenient. There is a notable difference in that you still need to be wise about which TM's are given to which Pokemon.

IcyIce
June 30th, 2012, 08:24 AM
I loved the ideas of infinte TMs. It was just plain annoying when you only had 1 use on them. I hope they keep it like this in all games to come.

Besides most people would just use a cheating device to get more of the TMs so it just saves money.

Aerinoctis
July 8th, 2012, 01:42 PM
Not for me. It made it easier to have your perfect team. Only thing I noticed was that most of my team shares two moves with each other, which is kind of annoying.

Zephele
July 8th, 2012, 02:34 PM
As someone who loves to hoard items, infinite-use TMs are awesome. I think they quite easily solved the issue of the possibility of being 'overpowered' by spacing them out quite nicely - the better ones that you could get were either out of the way later on or only available in post-game, preventing you from spamming Earthquake early on, for example.

Altairis
July 8th, 2012, 09:20 PM
No, they didn't make it OP at all, and they really should have done this a while ago. Now we won't have to worry about finding the right Pokemon to give a specific move too, and sometimes on my teams some Pokemon share moves, so this makes it a lot easier (a move like Thunderbolt or Ice Beam for example would be used on different Pokemon).

A downside to this is that I think Gamefreak decided that since they're infinite, they should be harder to get, so unfortunately TMs like Earthquake and Flamethrower weren't obtainable until much later :/ I never used any of the TMs during the game actually, I never found any of them viable on my Pokemon. (maybe 1 or 2.)

skyluigi2
July 9th, 2012, 11:53 PM
I like the infinite TMs but it feels like the moves have been swapped out for moves that aren't as good.
So it feels that we're getting weaker moves in return for TMs being unbreakable.

Aeroplane
July 10th, 2012, 05:13 AM
I think it stupid, atleast pre-E4. Just made everything too easy. Yes, it's convenient for WIFI battles/etc., but other than that it made things stupidly simple and far less challenging.

I'm shocked by the amount of "Oh it was annoying only having 1 of the TM!", that's what made it challenging! That's what made you think strategically like "Ok I have 1 Stealth Rock, I can't waste it." (Again, this is not WIFI battle-wise, just storyline wise.)

Fangking Omega
July 10th, 2012, 09:40 AM
I don't think it's a problem - players are going to seek ways to get access to duplicate TMs through trading etc/breed the moves anyway. It's just another way that Gen V streamlined the experience. and geared it towards WiFi.

Agreed that it made the main game too easy in many ways. But never gamebreakingly so. And the main game was very slick and streamlined anyway so it never felt like I'd cheated myself by using a TM more than once.

Haseyo
July 10th, 2012, 10:03 AM
I found it very useful. It was stupid previously as one-use. I would be scared to use any TMs because what if I wanted to change Pokemon and I used Iron Tail and Ice Beam on the current Pokemon already? I'm obligated to keep it. Infinite TM usage is far from broken. If you struggle in-game, you are playing Pokemon very wrong / aren't buying Moo Moo Milk.

Scorpiopt
July 10th, 2012, 11:08 AM
I found it very useful. It was stupid previously as one-use. I would be scared to use any TMs because what if I wanted to change Pokemon and I used Iron Tail and Ice Beam on the current Pokemon already? I'm obligated to keep it. Infinite TM usage is far from broken. If you struggle in-game, you are playing Pokemon very wrong / aren't buying Moo Moo Milk.

I agree with you
Infinit TM's dont make things OP in any way its way more convenient, specially on some pokemons witch their movepool sucks TM's give more coverage in some cases
Using superpower powered moves has its advantages , you could be walled and there is recharge time on some like hyper beam witch is gives a free turn to the opponent , and you could loose because of that

Actor
July 10th, 2012, 11:16 AM
I'd say both yes and no. While they were one of my favourite things introduced in B/W, there were fairly easy to abuse and you could find your entire team sharing moves because of how powerful they are. I would like them to stay, but make it so you would have to do a sub-quest to make them re-usuable.

Mr Cat Dog
July 10th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Maybe this is just me, but I always planned my teams so that no one move would dominate throughout. Indeed, I'd always try to get a variety of types and have at least one attacking move of every type in the game on my team at some point. So I love the fact that TMs are now reusable, as if I replace my main Electric critter with another, I don't need to worry about if the new one can learn Thunderbolt via levelling up, as it'll definitely be able to via TM! That takes out a looooooot of the hassle of team formation for me, so I really hope that this stays in place in Gen VI and beyond.

Haseyo
July 10th, 2012, 12:43 PM
I can't possibly think on how a single TM is overpowered. Please tell me which one is so insane that for some reason everyone on your team is able to learn it and can completely change the game.

Zayphora
July 10th, 2012, 01:04 PM
I love having infinite TMs. It makes a lot of sense, and whenever I try to play a game without it I find myself missing it. I think it was a good decision and I hope it stays.

ShinyUmbreon189
July 10th, 2012, 01:34 PM
I don't really agree with infinite TM's but I think you should get a maximum of 10 for each move. I think that's fair and not cheap at all. Infinite is cheap IMO.

Blue
July 10th, 2012, 01:54 PM
Kinda yeah, it used to be a challenge getting something like Flamethrower, Thunderbolt or Ice Beam and even then, it would only be one but now, once you've got it, it's permanent. You could easily teach a lower levelled Pokémon some strong TM moves.

Haseyo
July 10th, 2012, 02:07 PM
Kinda yeah, it used to be a challenge getting something like Flamethrower, Thunderbolt or Ice Beam and even then, it would only be one but now, once you've got it, it's permanent. You could easily teach a lower levelled Pokémon some strong TM moves.

You realize you don't get these TMs until either post-E4 or at least until the 7th badge, right? At that point, it's tedious to have to somehow obtain Flamethrower for your lower leveled Pokemon.

Still not broken in the least bit.

In B2/W2, Pokemon learn moves MUCH earlier than they previously did. Espeon learns Psychic at Lv37. I know this because I have one. Gamefreak realizes their mistake in the past, and fixed both TMs and movesets.

If you still disagree, give me another TM that's broken.

Ninjagon
July 15th, 2012, 10:24 PM
I think it's great, because more than one pokemon can learn a good move, such as EQ.

Forever
July 16th, 2012, 11:24 PM
imo it isn't really overpowered but rather more balanced. I really like that you can do that without having to waste TMs or realise too late so it does make the gameplay as far as battling is concerned actually easier.

I also liked that there was a girl in-game who told you about it specifically too. :3

Cyclone
July 17th, 2012, 04:52 AM
In B2/W2, Pokemon learn moves MUCH earlier than they previously did. Espeon learns Psychic at Lv37. I know this because I have one. Gamefreak realizes their mistake in the past, and fixed both TMs and movesets.
And if that's not good enough for anyone, I just hatched a Gothita (obviously Level 1) that already knows Psybeam and Psychic.

The latter is a Level 37 move.

We won't even mention that I breeded with an Elgyem that knows Miracle Eye, meaning it can now whup Purrloins along Route 3 using an extra turn.

Cyclone

Hikamaru
July 26th, 2012, 03:32 AM
I liked the concept of infinite TM's but I didn't think they made your Pokemon overpowered.

Some good ones can't be obtained until later in the game, which gives you at least a bit of a challenge.

Infinite TM's should definitely stay in future games cos it made life so much easier for me.

Mathue
July 26th, 2012, 07:31 AM
I think it would have been nice if you could have earned the ability to reuse TMs after beating a gym leader or all the gym leaders. I didn't do this but I could see people teaching moves that are super effective against a gym leaders type to all their pokemon and makeing gym battles too easy.
Other than that I love being able to reuse TMs. Some times you make a team and find out it wasn't as good once you battle tested it as it looked on paper. Or if you want to use some of the same moves on your singles team as you did on your double team. It makes all that far less annoying.

FrozenInfernoZX
July 26th, 2012, 08:28 AM
It is not OP. We should realize that there is around 646 Pokemon now. It would have been OP if it was in the 2nd or maybe 3rd generation. I just think that Game Freak realized that there are so many Pokemon now and that having one Psychic to teach to the whole line of Psychic Pokemon Family would be failure. Or what a feel would have been a better alternative was to create a NON-Battle Tower shop (Battle Tower was mean with those BP points, not worth it for a single TM) where players would be able to buy expensive TMs.

ZetaZaku
July 26th, 2012, 10:01 AM
What? TMs were infinite in Gen V? I must be living under a rock. I never realized that since I never used them for story. I was saving them for post game when I build a new team. Oh well..

I don't think it's OP. On contrary, it was a good decision to add it. Just having one TM makes you save it for the right Pokemon, or you end up never using them (like me). And why would anyone teach his whole team the same move? Even if it was a good thing I'd never do that. The whole game would be boring if all your Pokemon spam the same move the whole game.

Cyclone
July 26th, 2012, 11:02 AM
What? TMs were infinite in Gen V? I must be living under a rock. I never realized that since I never used them for story. I was saving them for post game when I build a new team. Oh well..

I don't think it's OP. On contrary, it was a good decision to add it. Just having one TM makes you save it for the right Pokemon, or you end up never using them (like me). And why would anyone teach his whole team the same move? Even if it was a good thing I'd never do that. The whole game would be boring if all your Pokemon spam the same move the whole game.
You'll see after the E4 that Bianca taught "Return" to her entire team. She has a good relationship with her Pokémon, so the move has got to be strong.

NEway, I tend to keep the Pokémon "pure"; that is, use them as they came. I will explore with TMs if I want to breed a specific move onto a Pokémon (since TMs get passed along, I'm sure with exceptions where a Pokémon can't learn the TM but who knows), but otherwise, I don't worry about them too much. HMs on the other hand you have to use (Strength, Cut, Fly, and definitely Surf, though most of these areas are optional or in the eastern regions).

Cyclone

atmmachine11
July 29th, 2012, 04:28 PM
Using all of the "super powered" moves on every pokemon limits coverage. When you limit coverage, you get walled easier. When you get walled easier, you get walled. When you get walled, you lose. Don't lose.
^ this explains pretty much everything.

Cerberus87
July 30th, 2012, 06:32 AM
Can't believe people are even arguing this!

I love infinite TMs. In the past I never even used them because they broke after one use. This is one of the best ideas Game Freak had for Gen V IMO.

Now if Game Freak only made evolution items infinite or buyable...

.TheDon.
July 30th, 2012, 07:15 AM
I think infinite TMs are awesome. I'm an old gen player and i don't know much about new movesets so it's good to be able to experiment without worring about wasting TMs.

Cerberus are you saying there are no stones on sale? :O how am i supposed to evolve all my little monkeys? xD

Kanto_Johto
July 30th, 2012, 07:24 AM
Infinite use of TMs annoyed me at first, but I've accepted it now (and it is convenient).

I think what annoyed me the most was that it was a contributing factor in Game Freak making the games way easier than they should be. I enjoyed playing White, but it was waaayyy too easy, something I'm hoping B2W2 isn't (especially with challenge mode and the PWT).

Cyclone
July 30th, 2012, 07:45 AM
Infinite use of TMs annoyed me at first, but I've accepted it now (and it is convenient).

I think what annoyed me the most was that it was a contributing factor in Game Freak making the games way easier than they should be. I enjoyed playing White, but it was waaayyy too easy, something I'm hoping B2W2 isn't (especially with challenge mode and the PWT).
I still disagree. Without a good grasp of the breeding mechanics, using TMs is the only way to teach a move. Any TM moves known by the male, er, mate will be passed down in any case, but given how Egg groups work, there is still a limitation about the idea of assigning the TM move to one Egg group. It would take a lot of cross-breeding between types (where one Pokémon is two types) to get the exact move on just two Pokémon. This makes it easier to give the same TM move to the same two Pokémon as you only have to have one to assign it, and you're not left wondering later whether you already collected it.

Truthfully, I hated this in older gens. With only one of certain TMs in existance, you could not simply rebuy any later to teach to a second Pokémon. If they were all available for purchase in some way, it wouldn't matter. But they're not. And thus, it ruins the TM thing for me. I've already decided if I do a hack the TMs will be available in various locations around my region, some as free pickups but pretty much all (in terms of the ones used in my game) as purchasable items. I believe the single-TM existence helped lead (not by itself, mind) to the idea of cloning by handing a TM to someone and cloning that someone to end up with two TMs.

Cyclone

Kanto_Johto
July 30th, 2012, 08:21 AM
I still disagree. Without a good grasp of the breeding mechanics, using TMs is the only way to teach a move. Any TM moves known by the male, er, mate will be passed down in any case, but given how Egg groups work, there is still a limitation about the idea of assigning the TM move to one Egg group. It would take a lot of cross-breeding between types (where one Pokémon is two types) to get the exact move on just two Pokémon. This makes it easier to give the same TM move to the same two Pokémon as you only have to have one to assign it, and you're not left wondering later whether you already collected it. That's exactly my point though. Game Freak is making the games way too easy. Cross breeding of certain Pokemon to acquire certain moves makes the effort put in more worthwhile/brings a greater feel of accomplishment.

Cyclone
July 30th, 2012, 09:12 AM
That's exactly my point though. Game Freak is making the games way too easy. Cross breeding of certain Pokemon to acquire certain moves makes the effort put in more worthwhile/brings a greater feel of accomplishment.
Not for me. I just don't use the TMs because there might be a better time to use it, not to mention I'm removing one of my Pokémon's natural moves. Then I get to the E4. And believe it or not, I still didn't use the TMs. I intended to give my starter a better fighting move, but then didn't use it in the E4 battles. I might have used one and I can't remember which it is.

Perhaps Gamefreak realized people weren't using them for this type of reason and decided infinity was the future? I actually LIKE infinity better; you can use it once and know if you screwed up you can delete the move from that Pokémon, later teaching it to someone else. If you want to stick with the once-only thing, then literally use it once and never look at it again. No one says you have to use a TM twice.

My TM usage in the game in Unova will strictly be for breeding.

Cyclone

Cerberus87
July 30th, 2012, 10:41 AM
I think what annoyed me the most was that it was a contributing factor in Game Freak making the games way easier than they should be. I enjoyed playing White, but it was waaayyy too easy, something I'm hoping B2W2 isn't (especially with challenge mode and the PWT).

It's easy because of poor Pokémon choice. I'm on the sixth gym. Lenora was the hardest gym leader for me, because Watchog at early levels is good enough and learns dangerous moves. But the other gyms are easy because they gave the leaders poor Pokémon or moves. Chili/Cilan/Cress can be handled with the elemental monkey, Burgh's Leavanny can be OHKOed by a Fire or Flying move, Electric gyms are generally easy, and Clay's Excadrill doesn't even have Dig as a Ground move. I'm not there yet but I imagine the only really hard gym will be the Dragon gym because, well, dragons are usually hard anyway.

The level curve is also a bit problematic since all of my Pokémon are 2-3 levels higher than the gyms and there's Audino and Lucky Egg to further help with grinding. If you know a good spot for Audino hunting you can reach very high levels very early, which makes the game too easy. Although, I can't really complain since I love Audino hunting and hope we can do it in B2W2.

Cyclone
July 30th, 2012, 10:55 AM
It's easy because of poor Pokémon choice. I'm on the sixth gym. Lenora was the hardest gym leader for me, because Watchog at early levels is good enough and learns dangerous moves. But the other gyms are easy because they gave the leaders poor Pokémon or moves. Chili/Cilan/Cress can be handled with the elemental monkey, Burgh's Leavanny can be OHKOed by a Fire or Flying move, Electric gyms are generally easy, and Clay's Excadrill doesn't even have Dig as a Ground move. I'm not there yet but I imagine the only really hard gym will be the Dragon gym because, well, dragons are usually hard anyway.

The level curve is also a bit problematic since all of my Pokémon are 2-3 levels higher than the gyms and there's Audino and Lucky Egg to further help with grinding. If you know a good spot for Audino hunting you can reach very high levels very early, which makes the game too easy. Although, I can't really complain since I love Audino hunting and hope we can do it in B2W2.
I sent you a VM about your first paragraph.

As for Audino grinding, yes, it's in B2/W2 as well. I saw a video that had some shaking grass in one of the new areas, and out popped a Lv.10 Audino. I'm sorta happy to see them back because they give good experience. Believe it or not, as I type, my current grinding spot is on Route 11 between the waterfall and the grass; at the very top of the path, cycle back and forth with only the six tufts of grass visible (others below are blocked by a fence and you have to go through these six, so don't keep them visible). Occasionally, you get a ripple in the water, but more often you get shaking grass and an Audino at Lv.46 dropping at least 3,000 XP with the Lucky Egg even to a Pokémon in the high 50s. I'm currently trying to get some Pokémon to at least Lv.60 there while catching new Pokémon, then I will expand further and start hunting down Trainers. Kyurem will likely be my last stop, and I'll follow that up with hunting the Lv.55 Audinos in his area. Today, however, I seek Corsola at Undella Town's ripples with their 30% chances; only there and Route 13 produce them. I need to breed one with an Archen, sooooo...

However, this is going off-topic, so perhaps with the question answered I won't ramble any further...:)

Cyclone

Golurks Were Meant to Fly
July 30th, 2012, 11:05 AM
imo it isn't really overpowered but rather more balanced. I really like that you can do that without having to waste TMs or realise too late so it does make the gameplay as far as battling is concerned actually easier.



This. It's really nice, actually to have this option. Even though I don't competitively battle, I'm sure it's helpful when creating a team, and this option is super useful in nuzlockes as a tm isn't just...gone. Also, the gym leaders spam their favorite tm (in all generations) so why can't I? :D

And why are we talking about Audino hunting? :? (this rhetorical by the way lol)