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Aquacorde
July 13th, 2012, 11:39 AM
So I have to admit, I actually found Black to be fairly difficult. I'm used to playing so that I'm just a bit overlevelled at every gym, but I just could not keep that up in Black. I was struggling badly, which got me rather frustrated. And I never did actually beat the game yet. :x

Did anyone else have trouble? Did you find yourself getting stuck a lot and/or having to level-grind more often? If you did, where did you get stuck and why was that? Did you find yourself healing your team more often than normal? Did you find B/W to be significantly more difficult in general than other main series games, or do I just kind of suck?

Munchlax11
July 13th, 2012, 01:10 PM
I didn't have many issues with the gyms, but the E4 was really tough for me because my team was severely under leveled at that point.

Xander Olivieri
July 13th, 2012, 01:21 PM
I found it easy to over level in B/W I was 5 to 7 levels higher than every gym I fought just traveling to them as opposed to all the older games where I had to grind for ours to close the gap between me and the Gym, even with training I had to grind extra hours to get over the Gym's level to the safe point.

vaporeon7
July 13th, 2012, 02:45 PM
I didn't find it that hard because I was really overlevelled, my team were all at lv64 at the Pokémon League the first time. I have a level grinding addiction I think.

Ω Ruby and α Sapphire
July 13th, 2012, 03:45 PM
I didn't find it that hard because I was really overlevelled, my team were all at lv64 at the Pokémon League the first time. I have a level grinding addiction I think.

+1. I think I grind too much, that the game gets a bit boring.

Cassino
July 13th, 2012, 04:02 PM
The experience system in B/W is punitive upon overlevelling, and so smaller teams, which is disdainable. Anyway, I had no personal issue with the difficulty of the game(s).

PlatinumDude
July 13th, 2012, 05:44 PM
I have the tendency to grind (and slightly simultaneously EV train) my Pokemon up to the point when my Pokemon are at a slightly higher level than the strongest Pokemon in the area; because of that, I didn't have too much trouble in the gyms and Elite 4.

Cyclone
July 13th, 2012, 06:21 PM
When I first played a Black ROM, I quit somewhere along Route 7; I never saw Twist Mountain. In that run, I had trouble in the fourth (Electric) Gym, but using save states and experimenting figured out that the leader's Emolgas were being EXTREMELY smart and intentionally using the move that is strongest on the Pokémon you have out. I developed a strategy for switching the Pokémon over and over (so that the move intended for a Pokémon weak to the move instead hit one resistant to that move) until each ran out of moves, and then wiped out the final Pokémon easily and moved on. I learned to come properly leveled to this fight, and did it extremely easily on my proper game run on the actual system. I now come to every Gym battle trying to have the main participants at or above the Gym leader's highest leveled Pokémon.

As for challenge, I found that grinding on Audinos made the game EASIER. You can hand an Exp. Share to someone who isn't strong against them and take one of the many Fighting types to go to town on them, leveling up both very quickly in the process. I learned not to put Fighting or Poison against Audinos, and the rest was elementary. I'm still grinding on Route 10 as I type (Lv.33-36 Audinos and the occasional Stoutland, I run from Emolgas to avoid the Static).

Cyclone

Zephele
July 13th, 2012, 06:21 PM
Outside of the first time I played through the game (whereby my team was heavily underlevelled upon reaching the Elite Four), I had no problems completing it. If anything, it was slightly easier; or at least levelling up new recruits felt a lot easier. In my latest playthrough, the newest additions to my team would catch up very quickly compared to previous games. I also never had to grind my team at any point outside of levelling up new team members.

droomph
July 13th, 2012, 06:54 PM
Eew, so much crap. This time, I'm in trouble, because I have the tendency to overlevel one Pokémon (usually the starter) and then forget about all the rest. So this time, I told myself, "No. We are going to train them all equally." And guess what? I'm about 90 cumulative levels behind the E4 and I really don't want to finish the game now. :(

Cyclone
July 13th, 2012, 08:27 PM
Eew, so much crap. This time, I'm in trouble, because I have the tendency to overlevel one Pokémon (usually the starter) and then forget about all the rest. So this time, I told myself, "No. We are going to train them all equally." And guess what? I'm about 90 cumulative levels behind the E4 and I really don't want to finish the game now. :(
You can take one Fighting Pokémon and gain 7 levels in 20 fights if you start slightly higher than the Audinos you seek out and battle. I just got Cobalion and Virizion up 11 levels each very quickly. Since I haven't finalized my team, I'm focusing on leveling up Pokémon of each type for future use along the Route 11-15 part of the circle (trainers all Lv.60+ and wild Pokémon starting in the 40s).

Cyclone

droomph
July 13th, 2012, 09:12 PM
Uh yeah :c lol, but the problem is - in this game, the main problem is the Elite Four. The Gyms are incredibly easy and you can beat them with Level 38 Pokémon (as I did), but then you get to the Elite Four, and they have some Level 50 Pokémon. Route 11-15 is good and all, but if I can't beat the Elite Four, I can't train there :P

Altairis
July 13th, 2012, 10:10 PM
I only had trouble the first time in Black because I didn't think ahead and had a really bad team, and I was desperately trying to train a Purrloin. I would use it in all the trainer battles so then when I needed to level up my other Pokemon, I would have to grind on wild pokemon forever :/ In White it was easier, but still I was always underleveled. The fact that you can really only gain EXP from Audinos and having the Lucky Egg should have been seen by game developers, and well, fixed somehow :c

Wings Don't Cry
July 13th, 2012, 11:14 PM
It was only difficult for me at the start since I didn't encounter any wild Pokemon so when I had to battle Cheren again he was higher level than me. Then I had like 10 Pokemon by the time I was at the second gym since I wanted to check which Pokemon were good even though I could of just checked Serebii. By the time I got to the third gym I narrowed my team down to Snivy(yes Snivy) and Blitzle. If I didn't finish the fight with Blitzle's Flame Charge I pretty much lost. I got an Archen before I got to Nimbasa but that's not going to help much, but Blitzle's Motor Drive pretty much meant invincibility there anyway. After that it just got easier especially when i got the Lucky Egg. I also had Munna throughout most of the game until I got a Moon Stone, I just chose to not include it in my battle plans since it was so slow and normally got taken out before I could do anything.

This was the first Pokemon game I actually had to use some strategy to beat the gym leaders. Before I would just kill everything would brute strength, literally. ie: Tentacool shows up, I would still double kick it with Combusken. Couldn't do that stuff in this game until I got Archen.

Zayphora
July 14th, 2012, 05:08 AM
I think this game was pretty easy, I don't remember being very underleveled, even the Electric type gym, which is usually one of my biggest challenges because of my Water type starter that is my main Poke', was easy because I had access to Sandiles. I didn't have much problem with the E4, having to rechallenge them only once, I think, because I didn't bring enough healing items.

Cyclone
July 14th, 2012, 06:40 AM
Uh yeah :c lol, but the problem is - in this game, the main problem is the Elite Four. The Gyms are incredibly easy and you can beat them with Level 38 Pokémon (as I did), but then you get to the Elite Four, and they have some Level 50 Pokémon. Route 11-15 is good and all, but if I can't beat the Elite Four, I can't train there :P
You are correct. I'm grinding on Route 10's Audinos. Logically, when I feel ready to take on those Routes, I'm ready for the Elite 4.

Cyclone

Rivvon
July 14th, 2012, 08:39 AM
I thought the game was at a very good balance point, and I only really found myself struggling at the Elite Four because I stopped doing extensive training and wanted to run through the last leg of the story.

Mr Cat Dog
July 28th, 2012, 07:56 AM
I found the Elite Four challenging on the first go around - to say nothing of N/Ghetsis - but that was about it, to be honest. Everyone else seemed relatively straightforward, be it Gym Leaders or just regular trainers. Even during the post-game, when the levels went up significantly, it never really felt like as much of a challenge as, say, GSC or even the days of RBY. But I do have a tendency to grind to the absolute max, so others probably would have felt differently in that regard.

Hikamaru
July 28th, 2012, 08:00 AM
I think the games handled this pretty well. The new EXP system made us work harder to get to a decent level thanks to the Lucky Egg and wild Audino.

I was a bit overleveled when I got to some Gyms but the Elite Four gave me a challenge even though my team were around Level 50 when I battled them.

The post-game Trainers with Level 60+ Pokemon really took me by surprise. At least that when you get to a Gym there's a wild Pokemon in the surrounding area that has a type advantage against the Gym.

Cyclone
July 28th, 2012, 08:49 AM
I knew the Trainers had 60s lurking. However, I've immediately found on Route 11 that the Audinos themselves got a major upgrade; they went from 33-36 to 46-47 in my first encounters. They still know Heal Pulse (learned at Lv.35), so they are more likely to heal you themselves so you can keep fighting; however, they also know Double-Edge and can hurt some of your Pokémon badly. I did defeat one Trainer on 11 and one who faced my way as I tried to sneak through on 12. I've slipped into the towns and can Fly anywhere now. I missed a shot at a Gliscor due to me leveling up my Ice Pokémon a few levels (Ice Beam was supereffective!). Especially in the post-E4, trek over to the later Routes and hunt Audino like it's going out of style; you will be able to gain at least 3,000 experience in one fight while you're still in the 50s. Already found my prime spot on Route 11 and will hang around there for a while, but I better fight the Trainers on either side to be sure I don't encounter them while weak. ;) Lv.60+ on all Trainers!

Cyclone

Golurks Were Meant to Fly
August 4th, 2012, 12:00 AM
\So this time, I told myself, "No. We are going to train them all equally." And guess what? I'm about 90 cumulative levels behind the E4 and I really don't want to finish the game now. :(

Lol I always do this, I'm somewhat OCD about it, actually.
Also, EternallyAnna, your thread names are awesome!

Okay. To be honest, I think they were a little harder (especially N/Ghetsis) but having the Elite Four all the same level made it a little easier, I felt. (If they had gone up in ranking it would've been bad for the game because of how you have to challenge them twice, etc) But yeah, Ghetsis was pretty difficult with his Hydreigon. And I'd have to say Alder was too, but I think I was somewhat overleveled at that point. XD

Miau
August 11th, 2012, 02:09 AM
The only gym leader I had to rematch was Elesa. I hated her two Emolga so much. And still not as much as Ghetsis' Hydreigon. I had to fight him five times before I figured to teach Dragon Tail to my Serperior.

Anyway I can't compare to the other gens, but I noticed there wasn't much grinding to do between gym fights. I did reach the E4 pretty much underleveled though, but still.

Bourne-mouth
August 18th, 2012, 01:51 PM
Haha, I had a slight hard time with BW's gym leaders. It was a test of patience because I had to battle every wild Pokemon that comes my way extensively before coming to the gym.

Other times, I trade my Pokemon to my Black and train them to higher levels, and trade it back to my White, where I now have an overpowered Pokemon and easily took the fun out of the game.

oshawottlover13
September 4th, 2012, 02:34 PM
when i was playing my black version, i realized the my pokemon were getting at high levels real easily. i would battle people with pokemon under my level and my pokemon were getting to the next pokemon in the first three pokemon. it makes me think that now it easier to level them up. i traded my pokemon from my platinum to my black and my azelf was level 89 and it got up to level 90 before the day was over on the game.

what are your thoughts about it?

Mistyb89
September 4th, 2012, 03:09 PM
I know exactly what you mean and it seems that they are leveling up ALOT quicker. I actually just started White for the first time the other day and compared to the other 6 games I have, I was actually able to level my whole party equally in this one. Ive always tried to do that in the past but it would always take way too long, so my starter Pokemon would always be always be 5-10-even 15 levels higher than the other Pokemon in my party. White isn't like that at all, I'm able to level them all up fairly quickly too.

Cyclone
September 4th, 2012, 03:24 PM
It won't seem that way once you get a few levels above them. Notice the experience gained is now a complicated formula, not a set number for each Pokémon and level. One battle with a wild Audino on Route 11 in the post-E4 could be worth 5,500 XP or 3,000 XP; your Pokémon's level dictates that, and the higher it is, the lower the number.

Cyclone

Forever
September 4th, 2012, 05:35 PM
when i was playing my black version, i realized the my pokemon were getting at high levels real easily. i would battle people with pokemon under my level and my pokemon were getting to the next pokemon in the first three pokemon. it makes me think that now it easier to level them up. i traded my pokemon from my platinum to my black and my azelf was level 89 and it got up to level 90 before the day was over on the game.

what are your thoughts about it?

While it isn't 100% the same question, a lot of people in this thread are having similar answers and rather than having a separate thread on it, I feel it fits in perfectly fine with this thread due to the type of answers you'll receive, and the fact that this thread in particular is based on training.

Osiris
September 4th, 2012, 09:31 PM
While I didn't find much difficulty with the Gyms, I didn't quite expect the Elite Four to be as good as they were (and I actually lost an in-game battle for the first time since Sapphire when I faced Ghetsis after the Elite Four).

After the Elite Four, though, is a different story. Obviously, I was curious to look around in the new parts of the map, and I didn't think much about training before I went there. Just going on Route 15, I ended up facing a trainer with level 65 Pokemon, which were more than 10 levels higher than my best.

Whallan
September 5th, 2012, 12:10 AM
I was always a couple levels below the Gym leaders and the E4, I always managed to beat them though. My friends pokemon at the same point in the games were always 6-10 levels higher than mine

Cerberus87
September 5th, 2012, 11:08 AM
The games themselves are becoming more and more difficult, since the DS has better AI and the Pokémon have better movesets. However, in BW I was overleveled most of the time, even without the Lucky Egg!

Audinos help take on the Elite Four and N/Ghetsis on equal footing, but it still takes a bit longer than desired.

chella182
September 10th, 2012, 03:49 AM
The games themselves are becoming more and more difficult, since the DS has better AI and the Pokémon have better movesets. However, in BW I was overleveled most of the time, even without the Lucky Egg!

Audinos help take on the Elite Four and N/Ghetsis on equal footing, but it still takes a bit longer than desired.
This pretty much, although I didn't use Audinos that much; I'm too impatient to find them haha.

voltianqueen
September 10th, 2012, 02:13 PM
I'm underleveled in every game, but even so I thought BW was really easy O_O I pretty much breezed right through everything..

Kaori
September 10th, 2012, 03:57 PM
I'm always one to train ahead of the levels found in the area I'm located in, so I never really have a problem. The game was a breeze for me unfortunately, but that would be my fault since I overtrain. :p

Plumpyfoof
September 10th, 2012, 06:03 PM
I sort of accidentally have a tendency to trade my team over to someone else and get them to take them through the E4 so that they get to about level 40 or so by the third gym. I like feeling superior to the rest of the Pokemon world.
I'll admit, my strategy leaves the games feeling empty. For example I've clocked up almost 160 hours on White so far which is far more time than I've ever bothered with any other game and I still don't have any level 100's simply because they get to about 90 or so and I just keep them there in my party as back-up.
But when I was playing the in-game storyline I got my Servine up to level 23 and i had a Roggenrola, a Whirlipede and a Timburr. I temporarily traded them to my friend who took them through the E4 twice each and they came back at level 45ish to which I just swept through the game without a scratch from Team Plasma.

There was no drama or anything being over levelled, I think I'll try and make the most of White 2 by not training them to level 50 before the game hah!

Azazel
September 10th, 2012, 06:55 PM
I'm almost always under leveled when I play a new Pokemon game, 'cause I don't know what level to expect. I also wind up switching Pokemon a lot when I find something I like more, and much grinding ensues. I must admit that I really hate grinding, but I hate giving up more.

FrostPheonix
September 11th, 2012, 08:42 AM
Was kinda easy IMO. The Psychic E4 was a bit hard, but other than that it was really easy. Especially the fights with Ghetsis and N... Reshiram went down kinda quick. the Gyms were generally underleveled or the same level compared to me.

Pokemon_Geek
September 17th, 2012, 05:37 PM
The new EXP system is one of the few criticisms I have towards the game. I already despise level grinding(Pokemon isn't as bad as some RPGs are about it, but I still hate that most of my hours are put into training instead of the actual story). The fact that good bit of the Unova pokemon evolve at high levels makes this even more frustrating. I know about Audino and that I'll eventually get the Exp. Share, but still.

I don't know if I still need to get more used it or not, but I prefer the old system.

Cyclone
September 17th, 2012, 06:07 PM
The Exp. Share comes extremely early in this game. Spend your time hunting Audinos in the outer Pinwheel Forest area; that tends to be a great spot to hang out leveling up, since Route 4 on the other side of Castelia City is sand. You can get the Exp. Share from the Battle Company before even challenging Burgh. After beating him, head through Route 4 and into Nimbasa, earn a Bike by beating some idiots, then heal and head to Route 5 to continue the Audino hunt with an Exp. Share attached to a weaker Pokémon. :)

I am just getting ready to start using mine in SoulSilver right now; that one needed a minimum of four badges, but I chose to do it in five (putting off Olivine's badge until later).

Cyclone

Psystar63
September 18th, 2012, 02:08 AM
I struggled a bit with the first gym with those Lillipups constantly using Work up. I spent a bit of time grinding there. The rest of the gyms were fine. The Elite Four would have been tough, but I made sure to grind my Zweilous so that it would evolve into Hydreigon before I challenged them. I'm pretty sure its been the highest level Pokemon I've had to beat the E4 first time round (lv 64). Gen 5 has a lot of Pokemon that evolve at high levels, so it was an added incentive for me to level grind my Pokemon.

Pokemon_Geek
September 19th, 2012, 08:22 AM
I wasn't expecting to get 2 Exp. Shares and an early Lucky Egg. The game gets a lot easier after Elesa and I've barely had to grind at all(I've even been a few levels higher than the gym leaders).

Right now, I'm training to fight Drayden since this is the first time I've never had an ice attack on my water pokemon(Good Lord, are the store bought TMs expensive in this game. I won't get the ones I want until after I beat the Elite Four) and I don't have Reshiram yet. I was also plan to grind for Ghetsis(I try not to get too spoiled for my games but I have read so many stories on TV Tropes about how hard that old man is with his hacked Hydreigon).

I'm relieved because I was about to go buy an Action Replay(my old one broke), but I still don't like this new Exp. system. Still, it's not completely bad since it is great for training weaker pokemon so that they can catch up with rest of your team.

Cyclone
September 19th, 2012, 09:02 AM
I wasn't expecting to get 2 Exp. Shares and an early Lucky Egg. The game gets a lot easier after Elesa and I've barely had to grind at all(I've even been a few levels higher than the gym leaders).

Right now, I'm training to fight Drayden since this is the first time I've never had an ice attack on my water pokemon(Good Lord, are the store bought TMs expensive in this game. I won't get the ones I want until after I beat the Elite Four) and I don't have Reshiram yet. I was also plan to grind for Ghetsis(I try not to get too spoiled for my games but I have read so many stories on TV Tropes about how hard that old man is with his hacked Hydreigon).

I'm relieved because I was about to go buy an Action Replay(my old one broke), but I still don't like this new Exp. system. Still, it's not completely bad since it is great for training weaker pokemon so that they can catch up with rest of your team.
The beauty of the new system is that an Audino battle with a weak (Lv.1) Pokémon leading while holding the Lucky Egg will net it over 10,000 EXP for its own share. It's possible to hit Lv.25 from this. I've done it. It can have its problems for Pokémon that evolve and only learn a certain move evolving at a certain level (see: Zorua to Zoroark and Night Slash for instance, only at Lv.30 and cannot learn evolving at 31 or later).

Cyclone

Forever
September 19th, 2012, 09:07 AM
I wasn't expecting to get 2 Exp. Shares and an early Lucky Egg. The game gets a lot easier after Elesa and I've barely had to grind at all(I've even been a few levels higher than the gym leaders).

Nor was I, it made it a lot easier to play through the rest of the game having the Lucky Egg there. But tbh it really isn't because they wanted to be nice but rather due to the exp system changes. Even so levelling up for things wasn't that hard in the first place since I overgrinded early on anyway so... yeah.

Cyclone
September 19th, 2012, 09:40 AM
Nor was I, it made it a lot easier to play through the rest of the game having the Lucky Egg there. But tbh it really isn't because they wanted to be nice but rather due to the exp system changes.
That's not accurate. Until Unova, Lucky Eggs were only happened upon via wild Chanseys with a 5% chance of them holding one (can you say "Thief", anyone?). The Chansey line was not available in the Black version of the game; while they still can hold Lucky Eggs, Black players would be forced to rely on trading to acquire one. Therefore, Juniper was made to provide the first-ever Lucky Egg item not found on a wild Chansey. More can be found on Route 13 via the treasure guy.

Cyclone

Forever
September 20th, 2012, 12:07 AM
That's not accurate. Until Unova, Lucky Eggs were only happened upon via wild Chanseys with a 5% chance of them holding one (can you say "Thief", anyone?). The Chansey line was not available in the Black version of the game; while they still can hold Lucky Eggs, Black players would be forced to rely on trading to acquire one. Therefore, Juniper was made to provide the first-ever Lucky Egg item not found on a wild Chansey. More can be found on Route 13 via the treasure guy.

Cyclone

Not really. Other version exclusives like more evolution stones are found in Black City, something White has to work for, plus each have more version exclusives in general. The fact that the exp system changed meant you needed to use the Lucky Egg more than you would before, so even still I'd put that down to the grinding thing, rather than the Chansey line not being able to be obtained in Black.

Cyclone
September 20th, 2012, 06:11 AM
My comment was not arguing the experience system per se; it was exclusively in discussion of the Lucky Egg item and its rate of appearance in Black/White (one guaranteed without meeting a Chansey). Personally, I don't have that other experience with stones in Black City other than the Moon Stone.

Cyclone

Hikamaru
September 20th, 2012, 06:16 AM
I guess the reason behind the tweaking of the EXP system was to encourage players to use the Lucky Egg, and remember this is the first game where you can obtain a Lucky Egg outside of wild Chansey (although you don't see them in the wild in this game unless if you're playing White, so it is sort of fitting).

I mean, training is often a blast for me when I equip the Lucky Egg on something. And it's nice you can get extra Lucky Eggs from the guy on Route 13, it's so nice they made them easier to obtain.

TNTrice2012
September 22nd, 2012, 08:30 PM
i have found that going in the grass for a hr after each gym really helps and just leveling on the grass

PlatinumDude
October 9th, 2012, 11:46 AM
I found B/W at around the same difficulty as the past games because I rarely use the Pokemon near a gym to completely dominate; I like a bit of a challenge. That, and I prefer using certain Pokemon in a team.

Wobbachomp
October 9th, 2012, 12:33 PM
Nope, I found it just as easy as all the other Pokemon games.

Sandshrew4
October 9th, 2012, 12:35 PM
BW was way to easy. I beat the gym leaders all one try. It took me a few trys to beat the elite four but i beat N and Genesis in one try. I went to the elite four, beat them again, and beat alder, all in one try. Now theres no one to battle.

LividZephyr
October 9th, 2012, 02:59 PM
The cake is a lie.

Sorry, had to.

In all seriousness, for the most part, White wasn't much of a challenge to me. I had very few Game Overs (if I lose, I typically reset to give myself that feel) and most of them were against Ghestis. He really was difficult to beat. Nobody else in the game was. Many of the gym leaders were jokes and although I typically kept a consistent team, they really didn't have much of a problem with anyone.

I personally think that it was just as easy as any other Pokemon game, except playing through GSC for the first time. In my original Silver, I had a lot of trouble facing Bugsy's Scyther and Whitney's Miltank, but only because I was a newbie and didn't quite understand type advantages yet (and had started with Chikorita). I am replaying Crystal now. It's easy. Knowing those advantages and everything is what made Black and White seem too easy - GameFreak hasn't changed a thing, which sort of punishes those with knowledge. It doesn't press their boundaries and make them discover newness. It was the same game with different Pokemon. That is all it was.

BW was just as easy as all the others because they're all pretty much the same. GameFreak needs to give us something new, to tweak it (even in a minor way) every generation like Final Fantasy or Tales does with each and every game.

Plumpyfoof
October 9th, 2012, 05:01 PM
There's no doubt GF need to cater to the more experienced players in their games. I personally am hoping that BW and BW2 are just GameFreak testing the waters of more advanced story lines, and if that be the case due to the success I believe we will very soon get more challenging story lines and quests in future Pokemon games.

Back on-topic; I found myself having finding a type advantage before every gym in every game I've played, in Emerald for example I'd start with Treeko, catch a Wingull for second gym, get an Aron and Mudslap my way through third, I never struggled with Norman, Wingull again for Flannery, Aron dealt with Winona with ease, Tag team Tate and Liza with Treeko and Wingull, Treeko for Wallace and that's all 8.
Every gym leader in 3 Pokemon (Obviously I would have evolved at the first chance I got.)

There will always be something super-effective towards a gym before you face it.

Thomas
October 9th, 2012, 05:42 PM
As far as the Elite 4 goes...did you play the postgame and challenge them again? They're all level 70 and above. The first time you challenge them its meant to be easier so you can move along with the storyline. The second time is much harder.