PDA

View Full Version : I'm concerned...


voicerocker
July 18th, 2012, 10:38 PM
Move this if needed. Wasn't exactly sure where it fit in.

Not too long ago, a petition was created to get Game Freak to make another Pokemon anime that was "more Mature" for the older audiences. All from the trailer for Black 2 and White 2. But instead of being excited about the games, the fans became angry that the current anime was not "as awesome" as the trailer, and started demanding everything from Ash being replaced to having Pokemon go all the way to a TV-MA rating.

No, I'm not that concerned with the petition itself. It currently has about 4200 signatures, which still isn't much compared to the millions of fans around the world (and considering many admitted to signing several times). I'm concerned about the future of the entire franchise because all this petition has seemed to do is build hate towards Game Freak. People are saying things like "Real Pokemon fans are tired of the show and want a more mature one!". So, if I don't think the show should change from how it's been since the start, I'm not a real Pokemon fan now?

I feel that even if Game Freak never even sees this petition that there could be a backlash against them for not changing the show and that the franchise could suffer from it. And what if Game Freak DOES just so happen to see the petition? What if they see the signatures and decide "Well, I guess the Americans don't like Pokemon anymore. Then we'll quit dubbing the anime and quit sending the games over there." I realize this isn't likely to happen, but people seem to be getting truly angry over this. I don't understand why people won't accept that they grew up and that shows won't change just because you aged. Nothing is preventing anyone from enjoying Pokemon but themselves. If they can't watch the show because they think it's too childish for them, why can't they just watch another anime that isn't supposed to be for kids? Why not watch something on Toonami instead of demanding a kids show be made the way YOU want it to be?

I realize none of this is likely to happen seeing as online petitions don't work, but I see way too many "Ash sucks! We need a new guy!" or "Pokemon is stupid now. We're older now, make it better!". I'm just worried that all of this negativity could have some kind of effect, even if chances of it happening are low.

Oryx
July 18th, 2012, 11:21 PM
The point of the "we want a more mature anime" camp is that they love Pokemon, and they love the universes in which it is darker, for example the manga. If you ever read the manga, you can see how well a mature, more realistic atmosphere of Pokemon would succeed in storytelling. They enjoy the universe, and they know the company has the resources to rework the anime, they just won't because they pander to the youngest audience. Take Adventure Time and Spongebob. These are loved by younger audiences, and equally loved by teenagers and more mature audiences. The people that want a different series love Pokemon and don't want to watch something set in another universe, because it's not the same. They want to see the beautiful, serious anime that they know the company is capable of making.

That being said I'm going to kick this over to the anime section since that's what it's focusing on.

bobandbill
July 18th, 2012, 11:23 PM
Well, it's not happening regardless of if Game Freak make it or not for a number of reasons.

Firstly; time and money. The trailer ad for B2W2 was very nice and shiny, but in reality? A lot more effort put into that than the average anime episode is, and they make hundreds of the latter. And they stated earlier that they are content with how they currently run things with the anime too.

And on that note, 'they' is an animation studio, not Game Freak. I imagine that have a bit of say but for the most part what Game Freak does (make the main games) and what the anime does (which amounts to repeated stories on the adventures of Ash in advertising the games and said Pokemon).
I realize none of this is likely to happen seeing as online petitions don't work, but I see way too many "Ash sucks! We need a new guy!" or "Pokemon is stupid now. We're older now, make it better!". I'm just worried that all of this negativity could have some kind of effect, even if chances of it happening are low. I really wouldn't worry too much about it. The target audience are young kids who don't usually go on forums, etc demanding that things change, and the amount of people complaining/making petitions are more the result of a vocal minority, not the norm (Pokemon's still making record sales these days too in the millions - it's take a lot more to topple that cash cow). And larger amounts of people have complained before, both about the games (just look at any decent-sized forum like pc when a new gen is about to come out for instance - 'no the Pokemon are unoriginal and digimon now!') and the anime (e.g. some years ago a much larger noise was produced when voice actors had been changed, and a very large petition circulated the net then. Nothing came from it in the end).


(My personal view however is that if the anime was actually like the trailer's quality I would be far more interested in it; because hey, more effort! And the same character for many many years with little change isn't very interesting to me either).

T!M
July 19th, 2012, 12:26 AM
Let's give this another go, eh?

So, I'm kind of angry that people want to see more violence out of an already decently violent anime. What's the point, POKeMON is largely not about violence, but the lessons it tries to hand out. Friendship; is a large one, team work another.

The youth of today frustrates me to no end with this bologna. Why can't we just enjoy a show without having to have blood, gore, lust and clevage you know. If this petition, god forbid, comes my way, I, for one refuse to sign. POKeMON anime acting is cheap and bad, but that's what I loved about it in it's season 1 run, right?

Lornami
July 19th, 2012, 01:57 AM
I don't think I would be too worried. Like it's been said before, the anime and game's audience is younger children and as long as the negativity doesn't effect the majority of children it should be fine. This isn't really a new phenomenon really. Older fans always become angry, frustrated, and vocal (unrightfully so) because what they like isn't targeted towards them.

Not to uh, step on any toes here, but it's a really common case with young adult males who want to like something unapologetically, but just can't admit it's for children (or little girls in MLP cases) so they come up with all sorts of reasons/actions to make it more mature. It doesn't help that the superhero reboots are giving that kind of thinking positive reinforcement. I'm not saying all male fans do this, and no females ever do it, but that's just the most vocal trend.

But back on track, all companies involved may like to play with older fan's nostalgia, but I don't think they'd ever change their core audience to cater to adults. Also, pulling from Dogasu, if a Pichu short can get pretty much wiped out of existence just because the narrator got a drug charge, you think they'd make a TV-MA rating show??

bobandbill
July 19th, 2012, 03:59 AM
So, I'm kind of angry that people want to see more violence out of an already decently violent anime. What's the point, POKeMON is largely not about violence, but the lessons it tries to hand out. Friendship; is a large one, team work another. Hmm. Although some people would certainly want more of that in the anime, a lot of the complaints I saw resulting from the trailer is that it looked far more polished (again, not surprising why), the attacks were more interesting (not necessarily more violent; people were more just going 'heck yeah Arcanine and Lucario!'), and that it didn't feature Ash. After years and years of him being the protagonist still ten or so years old, and with Pikachu being...relevelled so often (one quote I think summed it up in a post elsewhere: 'it held its own against a Latios and then couldn't do naught to a Snivy') I suspect some people just aren't keen on the same thing.

And that's not too bad a range of things to want I suppose. Certainly blood, cleverage, etc as you said is not coming into the show...well, ever, likely.

Tetrakeet
July 19th, 2012, 08:01 AM
Personally I'd like the show to move towards more of a "young teen" rating, instead of staying as a "young children" rating, but that's just my opinion. Nintendo supposedly intended it to be for children so it will probably remain that way, at least for now. My main dislike of the anime is Team Rocket, I truly tire of their weak villainy. I can deal with Ash and his Pikachu, but Jess/James really need to go blast off, get married, and retire. They will NEVER catch Pikachu, we all know that. *rolls eyes*

Ben10 Ultimate Alien and The Legend of Korra are good examples of how a cartoon can evolve, contain new older main characters, and still be successful. I hope that someday Pokemon decides to make Ash a teenager and up the effort for an actual story in the future.

voicerocker
July 19th, 2012, 08:22 AM
The point of the "we want a more mature anime" camp is that they love Pokemon, and they love the universes in which it is darker, for example the manga. If you ever read the manga, you can see how well a mature, more realistic atmosphere of Pokemon would succeed in storytelling. They enjoy the universe, and they know the company has the resources to rework the anime, they just won't because they pander to the youngest audience. Take Adventure Time and Spongebob. These are loved by younger audiences, and equally loved by teenagers and more mature audiences. The people that want a different series love Pokemon and don't want to watch something set in another universe, because it's not the same. They want to see the beautiful, serious anime that they know the company is capable of making.

I understand the older audiences want the darker stuff, and yes it is more interesting. I have the first 4 issues of The Electric Tale of Pikachu. But the Pokemon anime has been mostly for the kids from the very beginning. (Still have a few eps on VHS) Most everyone got into the show as a kid because that's how the franchise works. Kids eat it up and run out and buy as much merch as they can get their parents to buy. I had cards, books, figures, plushies, games, movies...that's why I don't want to see it change because it would change the franchise completely.

Plus, the teen anime fandom is at a point where illegal downloading is ruining the anime industry. Kids will watch the shows on TV, but teens want it all online the minute it's on in Japan, which is probably one of the reason why Toonami was given a limited budget to work with for its return.

(e.g. some years ago a much larger noise was produced when voice actors had been changed, and a very large petition circulated the net then. Nothing came from it in the end).

I figured that probably got more attention than this will. I just don't want all of this to lead to some kind of boycott against Pokemon because of it. Or for someone official to see all the hate and say "Well, I guess the Americans are tired of Pokemon".

(My personal view however is that if the anime was actually like the trailer's quality I would be far more interested in it; because hey, more effort! And the same character for many many years with little change isn't very interesting to me either).

See, I agree. For ME, I would be interested in a series done like the trailer. But, I'm 24, well outside of the target demographic. I tune in every so often just to see what's up with Ash and which Pokemon are in the episode. And with voice actors like Chris Sabat and Vic Mignogna appearing in the series, I try to catch those episodes. I still enjoy the movies and will probably always play the main series of the games, I just don't get up early on Saturdays to watch new episodes anymore. (probably due to working til 1 am.) I'd much rather watch Toonami late Saturday night, but I don't believe that the show is so bad or so horrible or so childish that it has to change just be I want it to. I know kids like Ash, so if Ash is helping Pokemon be successful, I want him to stay. For me, I want what is best for the franchise, not for myself. If Ash is the best, then I'm fine with it.

Let's give this another go, eh?

So, I'm kind of angry that people want to see more violence out of an already decently violent anime. What's the point, POKeMON is largely not about violence, but the lessons it tries to hand out. Friendship; is a large one, team work another.

The youth of today frustrates me to no end with this bologna. Why can't we just enjoy a show without having to have blood, gore, lust and clevage you know. If this petition, god forbid, comes my way, I, for one refuse to sign. POKeMON anime acting is cheap and bad, but that's what I loved about it in it's season 1 run, right?

I'm the same. Right now, I enjoy watching Deadman Wonderland and Casshern Sins and the rest of the Toonami lineup, but I also will watch Spongebob, Ed Edd'n Eddy, or MLP:FiM without a second thought. I like things for different reasons. The Toonami stuff is great for action and fighting, but the others I mentioned are just fun for me to sit back and laugh at or with. I would hate to see Deadman Wonderland reworked for kids, or Spongebob with a TV-MA rating. My point is, if you hate the Pokemon anime so much, why are you still watching it? And people saying "I'd still watch the show if it was more mature", well if you aren't watching now, why are you complaining about it? I know people want to watch deeper stories, but Pokemon isn't like that. But rather than just say, "Well, Pokemon was ok, but I think I'll watch Cowboy Bebop now" they demand the show be made to fit their wishes. I think it's part of the entitlement issue in the aniime fandom. They feel they should be in control of the show and that they own it to a degree.

Hmm. Although some people would certainly want more of that in the anime, a lot of the complaints I saw resulting from the trailer is that it looked far more polished (again, not surprising why), the attacks were more interesting (not necessarily more violent; people were more just going 'heck yeah Arcanine and Lucario!'), and that it didn't feature Ash. After years and years of him being the protagonist still ten or so years old, and with Pikachu being...relevelled so often (one quote I think summed it up in a post elsewhere: 'it held its own against a Latios and then couldn't do naught to a Snivy') I suspect some people just aren't keen on the same thing.


I've seen a fair share of the comments wishing blood had come out of Seviper, or wanting Leaf Blade to actually sever limbs. Though, those were few. But people keep saying "Make it like Naruto and Bleach!".

As far as the Arcanine bite, yes it was cool, but we've seen a bite like that before, in the very first movie.

http://www.serebii.net/movies/mewtwo/408.jpe

And the whole point of that power-less fight was to show that Pokemon aren't supposed to fight that way, yet people are demanding it change, even some suggesting that the Pokemon should die in battle if they lose.

I don't think I would be too worried. Like it's been said before, the anime and game's audience is younger children and as long as the negativity doesn't effect the majority of children it should be fine. This isn't really a new phenomenon really. Older fans always become angry, frustrated, and vocal (unrightfully so) because what they like isn't targeted towards them.

I was just concerned about Game Freak's reaction to all the negativity, especially since it's coming from the American audience. The chances of them even reading the petition are slim, but people are leaving hate comments all over several of the top viewed videos with that trailer in them with things like "Game Freak doesn't care about us older fans, they just want our money!" and "They're filthy rich, they could make another anime, but they won't because they don't care". I would hate for them to get the idea that Americans hate Pokemon and wish to see it gone.

Not to uh, step on any toes here, but it's a really common case with young adult males

I say, I resemble that remark! (Foghorn Leghorn voice!) (Just kidding!)

who want to like something unapologetically, but just can't admit it's for children (or little girls in MLP cases) so they come up with all sorts of reasons/actions to make it more mature. It doesn't help that the superhero reboots are giving that kind of thinking positive reinforcement. I'm not saying all male fans do this, and no females ever do it, but that's just the most vocal trend.


I agree. Like I said before, it's a sense of entitlement that anime fans seem to have in abundance these days, like they own all the anime in the world. I can watch MLP and enjoy it, turn on my Pokemon games and enjoy them, and watch action anime on Toonami and enjoy it. And NONE of them have been changed from the way they were intended to be enjoyed just so I could enjoy them. People have come to believe that they can't enjoy anything that isn't set for their specific age or if it isn't exactly the way they want it.

As far as males vs. females go, I'm not sure. I'm fully aware that some of the shows I watch are intended for kids, from MLP to Spongebob. But I don't feel I need to write to Nickelodeon or Hasbro to change those shows just because I grew up.

QuietDragon
July 20th, 2012, 10:12 AM
I'm tired of seeing these kinds of "petitions" from people who don't know about the cost of typical anime production.

Those kinds of production values can be found in a brief animated short like that trailer, animated cut-scenes in a video game, or a VERY short, VERY high budget anime (see Samurai 7 or, on a smaller scale, Studio BONES animation like GOSICK).

Ever played Tales of Eternia? Remember the gorgeous anime-style opening? Look it up if you haven't! Beautiful, right?

Now, go and look at the anime based off of it... the animation quality is pretty rubbish, huh? There's a lot of other reasons the anime based on the game rubbed me the wrong way, but we're focusing on the animation quality right now. That's because a simple weekly anime has a much smaller budget, generally speaking, than a promotional animation for a game. ^^;;

The truth is, this kind of quality simply CANNOT be kept up for a weekly anime that goes on for hundreds of episodes with very few breaks for years and years.

It's too expensive!

Animating like that costs a lot of time and effort. Do you know how long it takes to write the scenerio/screenplay, draw, colour, animate, score, insert sound effects, and voice act even your typical Pokemon episode? It takes months of work.

You don't have to appreciate it. You can mock it.

But you should understand the process first, before you complain!

As for people who simply want a darker, less kiddy story, hmm... that I can certainly see happening, but Pokemon enjoys great success with younger audiences, so I don't know how that would work unless they do something like make a second Pokemon anime after the current one runs its course... the current one is too popular to end any time soon, though, so chances are slim.

I've seen it happen before with the Black Jack TV anime; aimed at a younger demographic, did very well, then, after it was over, they came out with the darker, more action-oriented Black Jack 21. Then again, that had precedent in that the source material, the original manga, were darker, so the second series simply went back to its roots in a way. The first anime series ended after only 61 episodes, though... Pokemon goes on and on for years, that's why while I think it's possible, it's not entirely likely. ^^;;;

For the people who want Pokemon to die in battle... that upsets me, a little bit. I love the respectful nature of good sportsmanship and mutual respect trainers and Pokemon normally have.

Everyone is free to their own opinion, but in the context of Pokemon's roots, I find that thinking disturbed.

From the Time Magazine article quoted on Dogasu's Backpack, about Satoshi Tajiri (the creator of Pokemon!) and how Pokemon came into existence:

In Asia, fathers and grandfathers still tell of growing up in the midst of World War II, of nights of not knowing what to do with yourself except sneak into the tall grass of the countryside to catch crickets, then take them home, cupped in your hand, to raise in the dark of matchboxes, training the insects for fights with the crickets of other boys who have been on the same nocturnal hunt. The more experience each cricket has had, the better a fighter it becomes--the tiny surrogate for the boy unable to fight in the war going on all around him. Pokémon is that kind of game. Except that there are many kinds of crickets, and all are potentially friendly monsters with fabulous powers. And nobody dies.

... it kind of puts it all into perspective, doesn't it?

Munchlax11
July 20th, 2012, 11:26 AM
Well there are a ton of older pokemon fans, but the majority of fans are little kids. If they change it and make it more mature then the little kids won't watch it anymore. Gamefreak knows that there are older fans out there that want more than what they are getting now, but they also know that if they make the anime/games more mature then they will lose a lot of the younger fans and a whole lot of money. I think the idea of EVs was a great one. It adds strategy to the game for the older fans, but then if the little kids don't want to EV train then they don't have to and everyone can enjoy the game. I think they should keep the anime the way it is. If you want something more mature watch something else because even though there are a lot of fans in their teens and 20's (myself included), the truth is Pokemon is meant for kids. Of course that doesn't mean you can't watch the anime or play the games, just don't complain because nothing good can come out of it. Lets be honest if gamefreak turned the pokemon franchise into something for mature teens and adults they would go broke.

bobandbill
July 20th, 2012, 07:52 PM
Or for someone official to see all the hate and say "Well, I guess the Americans are tired of Pokemon".And again, that won't happen. Nintendo, Game freak, etc are going to look at how many people watch the anime (still a lot) and how many buy the games (BW broke sale records and each game is easily in the millions) to decide who is tired of Pokemon regardless of complaints. A petition won't cancel Pokemon. Heck, if Sega's still going with Sonic and its fanbase, Pokemon will. =p

Kenshin5
July 21st, 2012, 01:26 PM
I think more so then the fans wanting a more "mature" anime or one like that of the trailer they want progression or at the very least consistency. I mean you have Pikachu beat Drake Dragonite lose to Gary Eevee, beat Brandon Regice and tie with Paul Elekid, among other instances. Then you have Ash get reset as well having him throw a pokeball and Deerling without engaging in battle, that is quite the novice move(although some people say he did that out of excitement of entering the new region).

I feel if they saw Ash and Pikachu evolve (not in a literally sense, since I don't see Pikachu as Raichu ever) and progress such as win a league not be noobs after the region is done they would be fine with what they have.

Like others said having an show like the quality of the trailer would be nice. But would it be in realistic boundaries? As they said likely not. If they do something like this I could see it as a kind of OVA or a monthly thing or bi monthly like they had with Gundam Unicorn and they did it during the same time as Gundam AGE.

As for concern over the petition they would probably have a generic response to it if anything like "Your petition has been taken into consideration, but this is not something we have in plan in the near future, but thanks for submitting your idea and concern for this subject". They wouldn't throw away Millions upon Millions of dollars in sales just because a select fanbase doesn't like the Anime.