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LibraSnakes13
August 30th, 2012, 7:30 PM
Hello, I was running into a difficult problem concerning Fakemon and I was hoping that I can get some opinions on how I can tackle this issue or what to change on my general approach.
Basically, I'm worried about making my pokemon be too powerful. I want to make sure that the pokemon are decently strong but aren't uber and can take down the regular pokemon too easily. After playing competitive battles on the Pokemon Showdown site since December, I've come to realize how one little change in a pokemon's overall stats can make them waaaay too powerful (such as Blazkien's dream world ability Speed Boost or when Scizor was given Technician). As such, I try to make sure this doesn't happen.

When making a decently strong fakemon I usually aim for a total base stats of around 500+30. This is the range that I feel like we have decently strong pokemon. I usually lower or raise it if the fakemon has bad abilities, outstanding moves, etc.

Next, I determine what kind of pokemon I want to make. Physical sweeper, special wall, status inflictor, etc. I then focus on how their stats should be arranged. This can be done by basing it off pokemon that fill those roles (like Scizor as a physical sweeper or Blissey as a special wall) or by googling ''x-act base stat ratings'' and entering in the stats on that site
(for a more in-depth look at what these figures mean, go to the second link on the google search)

By now, the type/type combinations of the fakemon should be known. I now need to determine the moves. For the most part, they should compliment the stats but there are exceptions. I go to these articles to help me figure out what moves the fakemon SHOULD have.
for the first one, google ''cap movepool submissions'' and click the second link from smogon (the bottom part of the article is the most helpful)

and this article highlights great moves in general, google ''cap competitive moves''

Bulbapedia basically fills in the rest; I go to the TM list and give the fakemon TMs it could reasonably learn. Go to the Type page and give it moves varying in strength that the fakemon would learn by leveling up.

Level up moves are probably the most difficult, sometimes I have too many moves for the fakemon. I have to limit between 13 to 16 moves per fakemon.

Finally, abilities. For this, I have to avoid giving powerful abilities unless the fakemon is not that strong (usually less than 500 in total base stats).

I then look at the whole thing, see if it looks good, leave it alone, come back later and maybe change around stats or moves to make it better or weaker. Finally, when satisfied, I add the pre-evo, and basically dim down the stats and such.

I have done a quite a few already so here's my first and if you want, take a look.

So...what do you guys do when creating a fakemon/ Thanks for your input1


All my fakemon will be based off of prehistoric animals such as the weird Cambrian organisms, the placoderms, the first land-dwelling animals, Pleistocene mammals and of course, dinosaurs.
This one is based off Triceratops. As you can tell, I used Pokemon Essentials start up kit as a basis for making the whole set.

Name=Tritops
InternalName=TRITOPS
Type1=GRASS
Type2=ELECTRIC
HP=80
ATTACK=105
DEFENSE=115
SPECIAL ATTACK=66
SPECIAL DEFENSE=80
SPEED=82
TOTAL=528
GenderRate=Female50Percent
Abilities=ROCKHEAD,SAPSIPPER
Moves=1,FURYATTACK,1,MEGAHORN,3,GROWL,7,LEECHSEED,7,THUNDERWAVE,10,SPARK,14,VINEWHIP,18,GROWTH,21,DISCHARGE,26,SWORDSDANCE,31,CHARGE,38,WOODHAMMER,44,WILDCHARGE,49,TAUNT,55,HORNLEECH,60,THUNDERHORN
TMs=X-Scissor, Grass Knot, Light Screen, Solar Beam, Thunderbolt, Thunder, Earthquake, Energy Ball, Charge Beam, Swords Dance, T-wave, Stone Edge, Volt Switch, Cut, Strength, Rock Smash, and general TM moves that everyone learns.

Thunder Horn is a made up move for Tritops. It's physical, 90 power, with 10 percent chance of paralysis.
Physical Sweepiness equals 154
Physical Tankiness equals 173
Special Sweepiness equals 103
Special Tankiness equals 122
Overall Ratting 299

Fire Flyy
August 30th, 2012, 8:59 PM
The best way to go about doing this is to think about how they fare in the OU Metagame; which has to do with a variety of factors, such as being outclassed, too weak, too slow, too many weaknesses. And a lot of these are exploitable in game, even things like Stealth Rock Weaknesses, as a Pokemon with a quadruple SR weakness is bound to have many other weaknesses that can be exploited. One other thing you would want to do when making fakes is to always use original Pokes and base stat lists as references. Your regional mammal and bird should resemble other regional mammals and birds, even if the Pokemon is a new concept like a Ghost/Steel with Levitate, you should probably look at other ghosts, steels and Pokemon based off whatever it is. Seeing the variety of based stats, as well as OU Pokemon in a given regional dex is also important, I believe, that way, you know how many Pokemon should be optimized and have good stats that are 525 BST and up.

Cool triceratops fakemon, I remember coming up with my own Electric Triceratops called Protops [Proton+Tops, but also because the Protoceratops is a dinosaur that's sort of like a smaller/baby triceratops and I guess it's based on that.

Involuntary Twitch
August 31st, 2012, 1:02 PM
Here's the thing with fakemon: unless you're designing them for the CAP Smogon event, chances are they won't be used in PVP at all. So your real concern should be making sure they fit with the flow of the game, that they aren't too out-of-place where they are or that one starter in particular doesn't have a much better typing than the others, resulting in players of your game largely ending up with the same team.

...That seems like the most practical way to go about it, anyway.

FL
September 2nd, 2012, 9:01 AM
Too strong? Lower the numbers. There is no need to make every last stage Fakemon an OU. Try around 490+20. Only make the pokémon to get the powerful combinations by breeding (or similar) and make it evolve faster.

Awkward Squirtle
September 3rd, 2012, 11:44 AM
Yup. No need to go overboard with base stats - most fully evolved Pokémon shouldn't even have 500 total. Starters and other 'strong' Pokémon are exceptions.

Dragonite Ernston
September 4th, 2012, 5:17 AM
Here are some general guidelines (that I follow) when designing base stats for monsters, as to what "level" the stat total is at:

Totals
180 - 210: The ones that are specifically designed to be "weak" like Sunkern or Magikarp.
210 - 300: Basic Pokémon found in the wild on early routes, and other such common Pokémon.
300 - 320: Starter Pokémon will generally fall into this region.
320 - 385: First-stage and second-stage Pokémon found in the wild.
385 - 450: Some specialty Pokémon will be at this level, as well as more "common" final-stage evos that are less powerful.
450 - 500: Medium-powerful final-stage evos.
500 - 545: Powerful final-stage evos.
545 - 600: This is usually the domain of very rare and powerful Pokémon, that are considered pseudo-legendary.
580: Many legendary Pokémon have this stat total.
600: The signature pseudo-legendaries will have this total, as well as a few novelty legendaries.
600 - 680: Reserved for legendary Pokémon.
660, 670, 680: The signature legendaries / mascot legendaries will probably be at this level.
720: Arceus.

Starter Pokémon should be in the vicinity of 300 -> 405 -> 530.
Pseudo-legendaries follow a fixed 300 -> 420 -> 600 pattern.

Individual stats
20 and below: Minimized in this stat.
20 - 50: Not powerful in this stat.
50 - 80: Reasonably powerful.
80 - 120: Very powerful in that stat.
120 - 180: Probably specialized in that stat.

If your signature legendary has a stat total of 680, make sure it follows one of the following patterns: 90/100/100/120/120/150 or 90/90/106/110/130/154 (in any order). You may also invent your own for numerological purposes like I did, but if you have no good reason not to, try to follow one of those two.

Commonly seen stat patterns
0. Balanced
HP --------
Attack --------
Defense -------
Sp. Atk --------
Sp. Def -------
Speed -------

All the base stats are roughly equal, without any
one of them jutting out in particular.

1. Attacker/Sweeper
HP --------
Attack -----------------
Defense -----
Sp. Atk ------------------
Sp. Def ----
Speed -------

This monster has attack at the expense of defense.

2. Physical Sweeper
HP --------
Attack -------------------
Defense ----------
Sp. Atk -----
Sp. Def ----------
Speed -------

This monster has Attack at the expense of Special Attack,
so that the defense stats can still be reasonably high.
The opposite pattern is Special Sweeper.

3. Speedy Gonzales
HP --------
Attack ---------------------
Defense -----
Sp. Atk -----
Sp. Def -----
Speed -------------------------

All the other stats suck except for Speed and one other.

4. Defender/Tanker
HP --------
Attack -------
Defense ---------------------
Sp. Atk -----
Sp. Def --------------------
Speed -------

This monster has defense at the expense of attack.
A specialized defense is not seen quite as often as
a specialized attack.

5. Fleshbag
HP ------------------------
Attack -------
Defense ----------
Sp. Atk -----
Sp. Def ---------
Speed -------

This can be any of the above patterns with the
added caveat that the monster has really high
HP, at the expense of toning down the other pattern.


Also, keep in mind that base stats aren't everything. Types and movepools count for a lot as well. A great example is Gyarados from Pokémon GSC. What good is a Water-type and high Attack if you can't even use it on your strong type? Keep in mind that all Water-type attacks were Special before Gen.4, and Gyarados couldn't learn any Flying-type moves in Gen.2. The only good move that it might have had was Hyper Beam, and we all know how bad that move is.

Sunfished
September 4th, 2012, 12:41 PM
That was very helpful Dragonite.
Im planning to follow that little table you made!

And concerning starters,
Would it be a bad idea to make them have the same stat totals?
Or should I make them all equaled out strength-wise, +-20 BST?

I'm asking because you guys seem to have alot of experience
with these kind of things.

Awkward Squirtle
September 5th, 2012, 11:19 AM
Traditionally, Grass has had the lowest BST (525), followed by Water (530), then Fire (534). 3rd and 5th gens are the exceptions: in 3rd gen, Fire and Grass both have 530, while Water is the strongest with 535; in 5th gen, all three have 528.

In the end, it's your choice. If you think the starters need balancing, then do it; however, I'd just go with the same total on all three (between 525 and 535).

LibraSnakes13
September 5th, 2012, 1:18 PM
Wow that was very helpful Dragonite...your information is what I was kind of looking for in making a diverse range of pokemon

Ivee
September 5th, 2012, 2:24 PM
Really, when I was putting Fakemon into a rom, I just did a lot of testing. I've even shuffled movelists if I felt it was taking too long for a Pokemon to be useful, or it obtained too powerful a move too early. Gen 5 mons, I've noticed, learn a lot of moves fairly quickly, like 2-4 levels apart!

Unlike the official games, I try and keep their collective base stats a bit equal when something is fully evolved (so I don't have trash like Liepard and Delcatty). My statisticially "weakest" Fakemon is a Ghost/Dark type with Shadow Tag (it is a very rare encounter), since its ability is strong and its typing gives it no weaknesses.

My way of creating Fakemon looks similar to yours, otherwise.

Dragonite Ernston
September 6th, 2012, 2:37 PM
And concerning starters,
Would it be a bad idea to make them have the same stat totals?
Or should I make them all equaled out strength-wise, +-20 BST?

I'm asking because you guys seem to have alot of experience
with these kind of things.

The same totals in each stat might be a little weird, but the same totals with the stats shuffled around shouldn't be a problem.

audinowho
September 6th, 2012, 5:59 PM
Here's the thing with fakemon: unless you're designing them for the CAP Smogon event, chances are they won't be used in PVP at all. So your real concern should be making sure they fit with the flow of the game, that they aren't too out-of-place where they are or that one starter in particular doesn't have a much better typing than the others, resulting in players of your game largely ending up with the same team.

...That seems like the most practical way to go about it, anyway.

I'm going to agree with this. I can't remember the exact interview that said it, but Game Freak themselves talked about designing Pokemon to fit into the world that they created. Everything has a purposes for existing, and fits into its own natural ecosystem (in ways not limited to just a food chain). You can see this kind of thing with pokemon like trubbish (used by the people to clean trash) and sigilyph (regular flight patterns and their protective instinct on a ruin). Aesthetics first, stats second. It just seems to me that this kind of idea gets overlooked easily when one is so deep into the fandom. (but on the other hand, given who plays these pokemon fangames to being with...)

Awkward Squirtle
September 7th, 2012, 10:43 AM
All Pokémon also have a pattern to the levels they learn moves. Sometimes it's simple - Snivy, for example, learns a new move every 3 levels. Servine learns one every 4 levels after its evolution level, and Serperior every 6 levels.
Sometimes it's a bit more complicated - Purrloin learns moves at levels 1, 3, 6, 10, 12, 15, 19, 21, 24, 28, 30, 33, 37, 39, 42, and 46. Looking carefully, you'll find that the gap between levels has the pattern 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 4, 2, 3, 4.

Dragonite Ernston
September 7th, 2012, 6:06 PM
Meanwhile, Tepig's family is a bit weirder:

3, 7, 9, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 28, 31, 36, 43, 50, 55, 62

Differences:

2, 2, 2, 4, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 3, 5, 7, 7, 5, 7

No discernible pattern here.

MiTjA
September 8th, 2012, 12:32 AM
Meanwhile, Tepig's family is a bit weirder:

3, 7, 9, 13, 15, 17, 20, 23, 28, 31, 36, 43, 50, 55, 62

Differences:

2, 2, 2, 4, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, 3, 5, 7, 7, 5, 7

No discernible pattern here.

What were you looking at? o.O

2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-2-4-...all the way to 43.

Then its the typical +1+2+3+4+5... for all moves after it evolves to Pignite

And finally also extremely common thing for final stage of a starter:
+2+4+6+8...

Also it has an extra "lol it just evolved and gained a type" extra move as Pignite

Let me show you in another way:
Tepig-Pignite-Emboar
1-
3-
7-
9-
13-
15-
----17-
19-20
21-23
25-28
27-31
31-36-38
33-39-43
37-44-50
39-47-55
43-52-62



Personally, with important ones like starters and legends, I closely follow the standards that the official ones follow.
For casual pokemon, unless I have a very specific idea in mind, I decide how strong its meant to be compared to the existing pokemon... like say I'm making some common elemental 2 stage fakemon, perhaps I would think "this should be the same league as something like camerupt", and then Id take its stats and readjust them to something either opposite, a bit different, or completely unique.

gamefreak does this too, because if you really look at lots of pokemon data you can notice a lot of recycled data, sometimes for obvious replacements, or new pokemon for an existing role, like how Luxray was a new Ampharos etc.

Actually I have been readjusting my pseudolegend stats... one thing for those instant powerhouses with 600 stats, is that they never have any of their stats much lower than 100 to make sure they arent too focused into specialized jobs. In fact the only one that ever goes lower than 80 is speed and the highest one 125-135

So for mine Ive decided to opt for the first one utilizing the high stat for Sp.Def (which I thought was fitting for the more friendly looking Drabove that utilizes charge buildup on wings and powerful magnetic fields to fly)
Dragon/Electirc with Levitate 95 - 80 - 80 - 115 - 130 - 100
And for my other one I considered how Hydreigon was the first pseudo to have Sp.Atk instead of Atk as its offensive stat... however its just 125 and also has a 100 Atk, making it more like a special Salamence... so I made my Bizarriot a proper special "Garchomp" equivalent if you like, while going for a "fu*k dragon, wheres the love for bugs?" attempt:
Bug/Psychic 87 - 95 - 80 - 135 - 100 - 103

Im satisfied with them like that.

I think veekuns awesome search is a great help with analyzing this kind of stuff.
For example if you wanna compare what happened to Fire starters in the 5 generations, you can search for final stage pokes with Blaze ability, sorted by evolution family, resulting in this:
http://veekun.com/dex/pokemon/search?sort=evolution-chain&evolution_stage=stage2&ability=blaze&evolution_position=last


IMO if you just make nothing extreme then you're fine, especially as a competitive battler, you should notice if you happen to get a combination of stats, abilities and types that are broken lol

Just if you're trying to make a full generation of pokemon, make sure theres enough weak pokemon in it too.

Awkward Squirtle
September 8th, 2012, 3:29 AM
Then its the typical +1+2+3+4+5... for all moves after it evolves to Pignite

And finally also extremely common thing for final stage of a starter:
+2+4+6+8...

I never thought about it that way. Makes sense.

gamefreak does this too, because if you really look at lots of pokemon data you can notice a lot of recycled data, sometimes for obvious replacements, or new pokemon for an existing role, like how Luxray was a new Ampharos etc.

I'd say this is a very good approach. I haven't been using it myself as much as I'd like, but I'll give it a shot.

Actually I have been readjusting my pseudolegend stats... one thing for those instant powerhouses with 600 stats, is that they never have any of their stats much lower than 100 to make sure they arent too focused into specialized jobs. In fact the only one that ever goes lower than 80 is speed and the highest one 125-135

I admit I haven't done this. But my pseudo-legendary is defensive rather than offensive, so I dropped its Attack quite low to boost up both defensive stats.

I just had a look at my (incomplete) Pokédex, and my stat totals for fully-evolved non-pseudo-legendary Pokémon range between 400 and 540.
400 is for the Butterfree-like Pokémon, while 540 is for an new evolution of a previously fully-evolved Pokémon.

Butterfree and its kin have a measly 385 total. I know I should be going for the same, but I'd rather actually have the Pokémon be even remotely useful - a small stat buff and a slightly delayed evolution sounds fine to me (stage 1 --level 10--> stage 2 --level 14--> stage 3), seeing as you'll be able to find its 1st stage in the wild roughly at levels 7-10.
540 is fine; it's the same as Kingdra and Electivire. Togekiss goes up to 545, Volcarona has 550, and Arcanine has a whopping 555 (Legendary Pokémon, indeed).
I think I'm going to compile a list of Pokémon base stat totals depending on the Pokémon's evolutionary category. It should come in useful to fakemon designers.

Is there any precedent for split evolutions having different base stat totals? The only one I can think of is Ninjask/Shedinja, which is an... exceptional case. In other cases, branched evolutions always have the same BST. Not necessarily rearranged stats, though (for example, Glalie has averaged stats, while Froslass focuses in Speed and Sp. Atk).

MiTjA
September 8th, 2012, 5:01 AM
Is there any precedent for split evolutions having different base stat totals? The only one I can think of is Ninjask/Shedinja, which is an... exceptional case. In other cases, branched evolutions always have the same BST. Not necessarily rearranged stats, though (for example, Glalie has averaged stats, while Froslass focuses in Speed and Sp. Atk).

Unless its a really unique case like Shedinja, nope. Everything from Eevee to Kirlia has the same BST in the split stages.

I did however myself deviate from that with a split Trapinch evo, because its not a normal split evo, as it either has 2 level stages towards Flygon or just the 1 alternate ele.stone stage, where it stays orange and incapable of flight.
290-->340-->520
290----->490
If I intended to give the split way the same amount of stages Id have used the same BST obviously.

FL
September 8th, 2012, 2:30 PM
Please take a note than giving a low level pokémon good moves is more dangerous than some stats points. I don't know why Game Freak gives Dragon Rage to Charmander at level 16 O__o

There is no problem giving several moves in few levels if the vast majority aren't useful.

And pay attention on some dangerous combinations like Bullet Punch Scizor. Several are more effective than dozens (and maybe hundreds) of stats points.

jjx8672
September 17th, 2012, 10:35 AM
Seems like a similar problem that we all face when creating Fakemon games. I too am creating a prehistoric based fakemon game.

I actually make most of my abilities from scratch. For example, one of my fakemon that is common on deviantart is Gravurm. It is an Electric-Ground type. I created its ability based on its bio. It's capable of manipulating gravity for short amounts of time so I created the ability Flux. Basically, everytime it gets his with a stat reducing move, it has a 50% chance of raising its speed and a 50% chance of reducing the foes speed. This way, in battle it is unique. People can still poison and paralyze it but being similar in strength to Onix (whom it quarrels with on occassion) it has a high defense. It still has its weakpoints of course but those are for you to find out.

Gravurm can be seen here on deviant art by just typing its name in.