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abnegation
January 18th, 2013, 08:54 AM
When reading this, please try and throw opinions on other people and their games aside for a moment. It'll really help objectivity.

Over the course of a few years, the game development section has taken a serious decline in a sense of community. There was a time where people were a lot more supporting of others. What we see now is a complete sense of detachedness.

This is a section primarily comprised of Pokémon fan games, so when I say that, why should anybody be anything but positive to one another? It's a little silly, there used to be a sense of community and we'd all be a little more supportive. Now the community seems to be completely partitioned, and no longer are games the main view, but the "ego" behind them. From a personal point of view, I would love to go back in time and make my contribution to what I've worked on 100% anonymous, have another account post the game, update it, and that's it. There's too much focus on assumed personality, and not enough focus on supporting fan made projects.

Again, this is essentially fan art, aside from original games, the threads posted here are just edited replications of a franchise, varying in degree of customised content. In no way is that a negative thing, but a lot of people take this little corner of the game development world, far, far too seriously. 

Plain and simple; people are competing instead of supporting one another. What is that? While competition between games can really drive the teams to make theirs better, it just seems as if people are looking to make "the best" game, or the "most original" game, and too often do I see the words "compared to". What you should be going for is your own thing, try make games that are fun, in your own image. Not trying to compare to the other games out there, not trying to nitpick every negative thing you can see about a "popular" fan game, simply because it has a big following. There's some fan games out there which I love, and are completely unknown, but they get great support from the people who follow it. It seems as if the more popular a game gets, the more people out there want to target it negatively.

This community isn't about who's right, who "leads" what game, who's a dick, and who's a freeloader, it's not about "who" at all. It should be about working together to support one another, helping the fan games towards completion with positivity. Now, criticism is really important, however you should learn how to give it before you do so. Before giving some, think about it as if this is your game, think about how you would like someone to give you critique, and think about how your tone and attitude towards a person may affect how the community works. When you comment on a game, the community sees it. You can be helpful, but it won't be noticed if your post isn't supportive at the same time, talk about how someone can improve their updates, rather than simply pointing out what is wrong. Also add what you do like about it so that they don't go ahead and change the entire thing, only for it to be criticised negatively again and again. 

Forget about holding grudges against people, it's really immature to start judging games, the team, and the person and relaying a negative attitude against them. I personally had an awful attitude and seen how it affected people negatively, so I worked on it and realised how much better it is to be approachable.

I know this won't change the community, I never intended it to, but it would be a great thing to see people around the forum being a lot more supportive and in general, a lot less doom and gloom regarding Pokémon fan games. Don't be mean if you don't like something, it's not helpful.

I say this as a member, rather than a developer or even a staff member here.  Contrary to popular belief, titles aren't important to me, and I think that's the way this community should work. We'd probably have more demos and finished games too, if people didn't throw down so much negativity. Come together a bit more, forget about the who's who and the "best" this and the "best" that. Be positive, or go away,  avoid being negative or spiteful, ain't nobody got time for that.

Working together a bit more, making some friends online, and releasing fun games, that's what this section should be about.

Sorry that this one is closed, but I can already see this thread exploding into an argument. Point is, it'd be great to see some more positivity in the section, and if you have anything to contribute towards that remember you can contact Cilerba, or feel free to throw your responses at me. Hope you guys don't take this up as a slight against any of you, keep up the good work on your games and have a great day :]

FL
January 19th, 2013, 11:42 AM
Nice topic. First, people really needs to be more supportive, but, like you said, competition is a good thing (http://www.shaunrosenberg.com/10-reasons-why-competition-is-a-good-thing).

But is possible to be mutually supportive and competitive, and this can be very positive. Several companies try to make employees/sectors compete among themselves, for a bigger gain (http://www.cubiks.com/articles/ThoughtLeadership/Pages/thought_leadership_healthy_competition.aspx). A healthy competition only make us better (http://redroom.com/member/ivory-madison/blog/healthy-competition-vs-unhealthy-competition).

The fault is the ones that makes destructive criticism, but the developers, also, needs to have the capacity to filter the feedback and try to extract the best of it to improve themselves.

I generally try to make content (generally scripts) that anyone can use and even try do adapt some of my scripts to other peoples use. I suggest to more people do this, a good way to make the community grows.

ppooookkkkkkk
January 19th, 2013, 11:52 AM
Nice topic. First, people really needs to be more supportive, but, like you said, competition is a good thing (http://www.shaunrosenberg.com/10-reasons-why-competition-is-a-good-thing).

But is possible to be mutually supportive and competitive, and this can be very positive. Several companies try to make employees/sectors compete among themselves, for a bigger gain (http://www.cubiks.com/articles/ThoughtLeadership/Pages/thought_leadership_healthy_competition.aspx). A healthy competition only make us better (http://redroom.com/member/ivory-madison/blog/healthy-competition-vs-unhealthy-competition).

The fault is the ones that makes destructive criticism, but the developers, also, needs to have the capacity to filter the feedback and try to extract the best of it to improve themselves.

I generally try to make content (generally scripts) that anyone can use and even try do adapt some of my scripts to other peoples use. I suggest to more people do this, a good way to make the community grows.

I would've love to help newbies too. But i can't script :\

About the topic. I also noted that people only post on those projects who are like already improved. I know scripters get to show their work in front of more people. But it doesn't mean Beginner/A little un supported projects can't get famouse too maybe with a lil bit of help they can skyrocket too! I wish i could script on ruby. So i could help all the newbies :).

DaSpirit
January 19th, 2013, 12:55 PM
When I first read this after you posted, I thought "what is this guy talking about?"

I simply think people got bored. I remember when I first joined Pokecommunity in 2007, there would be a new fan game added on the board every week. Now, this isn't really the case. The Showcase section barely changes meanwhile the Beginner's Showcase is boring in that most of the ideas never work and never become big. Personally, I think we need more tools to help aid in game development. This is why the ROM Hacking section on Pokecommunity is still much bigger than the game development one.

Now on your talk about tone. This is the internet. The tone is not something you can tell. They could always be sarcastic or neutral. When someone says they dislike something, they are not always being mean. It is still criticism nonetheless and although it could be short, every little bit should be helpful. Your audience is the one who will be playing your game and if they are not happy then you would be the only one who downloads it.

It seems as if you're trying to target specific people. If you are, then go tell these people personally.

Nintendork15
January 19th, 2013, 01:08 PM
It could be me pulling a blind eye on things; but I don't really see people competing against each other when it comes to how good a game is.

Only small comments like:
''How is your tiles so better than mine?''
''Because I can make tiles, and you can't.''

Sounds a bit harsh, but is true.

Also, it's not popular games getting negative comments on what it is.
It's more, fans brag that this game has , this that and those, and it's so uber cool.
When really, it's not as good as said or explained by OP.

But again, I fail to see these 'mean' and 'dick' comments.

Atomic Reactor
January 19th, 2013, 01:25 PM
Alright, I like this topic, and I have some words to put out there about it. So if you have the time, please read my post! :D

Since I signed up here in 2007, ego, popularity, and support/criticism has always been a part of this section. Always. There are always the people who only criticize, people who only say nice things, people who jump on bandwagons (those that will support something even if it's being criticized) those that will always hate a game based on the creator, and those who support and criticize pretty well (those are the best ones) You can go back, and you will find all these members that have posted on bigger games.

These people are what make up the "community" of game dev.
-The criticizers, who may not sugarcoat their words, but get their point across (and usually intend to help the creator, weather the creator sees that or not)

-The supporters, who support a game because they like the creator, or because they really like the way the game works.

Those are the two most prominent members. The problem arises when there are too many supporters, they give the creator a false sense of pride for their creation. Yes, it's neat, but it's not perfect, it never will be. So when a Criticizer comes in, it's considered negative feeback and hate. This is not the case. When you are so use to positive feedback, you will not recognize this as criticism. Some people feel they are being personally attacked, which in 98% of the time, they are not being attacked, but just trying to be given advice or help. (that 98% is a real statistic, statistics don't lie)

As far as competition goes? We need competition. Like seriously, why would that be a bad thing? FL posted a link to something about competition that I'm sure will back up this point. Without competition, or jealousy, we would have games with cliche plots, default graphics, and god awful maps. The need to be better than another game is what drives people to try harder on theirs, make cooler features, use better graphics. When I made a game I thought "I bet I can make a game, and it will be better than this one, or as cool as that one, or just as fun as that." It shouldn't be the main force behind a game at all, but it should still be there. Without it, you wouldn't try. The game would be basic as hell. Of course you should be attempting to make your own thing, but the competition will help you try and make a more original or better experience for the players.
Not trying to compare to the other games out there, not trying to nitpick every negative thing you can see about a "popular" fan game, simply because it has a big following.Do this, always do this. Bring the popular game back down to earth. As I stated earlier, to much support can be bad. You can't have an ego thinking your game is the best because it never gets any criticism. Criticize it (with honest criticism) There's always something that can be improved.
You can be helpful, but it won't be noticed if your post isn't supportive at the same time, talk about how someone can improve their updates, rather than simply pointing out what is wrong.A post doesn't have to be supportive, it doesn't need to be sugarcoated. If the creator can't handle a rude, blunt post, then maybe they shouldn't be posting their game on the internet. There are people out there who will criticize without trying to be nice about it. It's a fact of life, and you all will need to accept that. It would be nice if people were more respectful with their crit, but it's just not how the world works. People will be dicks, you just gotta brush that brash nature off and ignore it, but take in the criticism. Impressing the dicks that criticize is a great feeling too, try and impress the naysayers.

Don't be mean if you don't like something, it's not helpful. To the people who don't get offended that easily, it's very helpful. A supportive criticism will not be thought to be to seriously. If someone is a dick about it, it will sit with you much more heavily, and you will want to fix the problem a lot more. I mean, name calling isn't necessary, but I think sugarcoating criticism isn't helpful.

We'd probably have more demos and finished games too, if people didn't throw down so much negativity.We'd have a bunch of bad quality games, that's for sure. The dicks and criticism weed out the pansies who can't handle it, and the ones who do, generally produce quality work. (IMO)

I don't think anything in the last 6 years has changed, other than activity. Not sure why the activity has dropped, but it's not because of the attitude of the community, I promise you that. There's always a few dicks in the group, it just cycles through different people. There are also many friendly supporters. You take the good with the bad when you enter this community, and if you don't like the bad, than get out, this won't be the place for you. You have to have thick skin if you want to make a game, and you have to be able to accept blunt criticism.

So in conclusion:
There needs to be some competition in order to make a good quality game.
You have to be able to handle blunt criticism, don't just close a thread or quit a game when some arises. To better your game, you must listen to all criticism.
And, the community hasn't really changed in the last 6 years, peoples perception has just changed. Trust me, we has the same kind of members back in the day, they just had different names ;)

I believe that's all I have to say, I would love to see what you guy's think. I feel like I'm forgetting some stuff, I can add it in on another post I guess, idk.

Fire Flyy
January 19th, 2013, 01:26 PM
I simply think people got bored. I remember when I first joined Pokecommunity in 2007, there would be a new fan game added on the board every week. Now, this isn't really the case. The Showcase section barely changes meanwhile the Beginner's Showcase is boring in that most of the ideas never work and never become big. Personally, I think we need more tools to help aid in game development. This is why the ROM Hacking section on Pokecommunity is still much bigger than the game development one.

I agree with this completely. My desirable vision of a "community" is one where improvement is the norm and people encourage and help others to get better and people actually want to aspire to improve and revamp their games. (http://www.pokecommunity.com/showpost.php?p=3693461&postcount=109) When I first found and joined this forum as AceDragonite I was literally mesmerized by all the fantastic games that existed [Tanzanite, Malachite, Scarlet, I can go on] and the comrardery that existed between developers, helping each other while also aspiring to be the best. Unfortunately, I just don't see that any more, it seems like people are making games just for the sake of making a game instead of trying to make something worthwhile out of their ideas and love for the franchise. Last year, the board was literally dominated by Phoenix Rising and Garnet and it seemed like an unspoken rule that there was no rivalry, which showed in the replies and thread views and while those games certainly deserve recognition and praise for the amount of work that's been done to improve them [just compare 2010 Garnet or Forever Lost screens with the current], that's just ridiculous. I feel like stuff like that needs to change and there needs to be more encouragement for improvement so that there's a lot of "good games" on here rather than just a few, like offering kind but legitimate critiques of games that could use a lot of improvement. People should strive for excellence, not mediocrity and the users should transmute the culture of this board to reflect that.

Nintendork15
January 19th, 2013, 01:30 PM
Alright, I like this topic, and I have some words to put out there about it. So if you have the time, please read my post! :D

Since I signed up here in 2007, ego, popularity, and support/criticism has always been a part of this section. Always. There are always the people who only criticize, people who only say nice things, people who jump on bandwagons (those that will support something even if it's being criticized) those that will always hate a game based on the creator, and those who support and criticize pretty well (those are the best ones) You can go back, and you will find all these members that have posted on bigger games.

These people are what make up the "community" of game dev.
-The criticizers, who may not sugarcoat their words, but get their point across (and usually intend to help the creator, weather the creator sees that or not)

-The supporters, who support a game because they like the creator, or because they really like the way the game works.

Those are the two most prominent members. The problem arises when there are too many supporters, they give the creator a false sense of pride for their creation. Yes, it's neat, but it's not perfect, it never will be. So when a Criticizer comes in, it's considered negative feeback and hate. This is not the case. When you are so use to positive feedback, you will not recognize this as criticism. Some people feel they are being personally attacked, which in 98% of the time, they are not being attacked, but just trying to be given advice or help. (that 98% is a real statistic, statistics don't lie)

As far as competition goes? We need competition. Like seriously, why would that be a bad thing? FL posted a link to something about competition that I'm sure will back up this point. Without competition, or jealousy, we would have games with cliche plots, default graphics, and god awful maps. The need to be better than another game is what drives people to try harder on theirs, make cooler features, use better graphics. When I made a game I thought "I bet I can make a game, and it will be better than this one, or as cool as that one, or just as fun as that." It shouldn't be the main force behind a game at all, but it should still be there. Without it, you wouldn't try. The game would be basic as hell. Of course you should be attempting to make your own thing, but the competition will help you try and make a more original or better experience for the players.
Do this, always do this. Bring the popular game back down to earth. As I stated earlier, to much support can be bad. You can't have an ego thinking your game is the best because it never gets any criticism. Criticize it (with honest criticism) There's always something that can be improved.
A post doesn't have to be supportive, it doesn't need to be sugarcoated. If the creator can't handle a rude, blunt post, then maybe they shouldn't be posting their game on the internet. There are people out there who will criticize without trying to be nice about it. It's a fact of life, and you all will need to accept that. It would be nice if people were more respectful with their crit, but it's just not how the world works. People will be dicks, you just gotta brush that brash nature off and ignore it, but take in the criticism. Impressing the dicks that criticize is a great feeling too, try and impress the naysayers.

To the people who don't get offended that easily, it's very helpful. A supportive criticism will not be thought to be to seriously. If someone is a dick about it, it will sit with you much more heavily, and you will want to fix the problem a lot more. I mean, name calling isn't necessary, but I think sugarcoating criticism isn't helpful.

We'd have a bunch of bad quality games, that's for sure. The dicks and criticism weed out the pansies who can't handle it, and the ones who do, generally produce quality work. (IMO)

I don't think anything in the last 6 years has changed, other than activity. Not sure why the activity has dropped, but it's not because of the attitude of the community, I promise you that. There's always a few dicks in the group, it just cycles through different people. There are also many friendly supporters. You take the good with the bad when you enter this community, and if you don't like the bad, than get out, this won't be the place for you. You have to have thick skin if you want to make a game, and you have to be able to accept blunt criticism.

So in conclusion:
There needs to be some competition in order to make a good quality game.
You have to be able to handle blunt criticism, don't just close a thread or quit a game when some arises. To better your game, you must listen to all criticism.
And, the community hasn't really changed in the last 6 years, peoples perception has just changed. Trust me, we has the same kind of members back in the day, they just had different names ;)

I believe that's all I have to say, I would love to see what you guy's think. I feel like I'm forgetting some stuff, I can add it in on another post I guess, idk.

^ this.
I agree with it completely.

A lot of you seem to being comparing now from back in 2007.
Some people need to remember how much the internet has changed in the last 5 years, with Trolls, Meme's and Internet Humour. The way 'positive' attitude was is different to what many modern internet browsers think it is today, we're bound to get a 'bad' comment with the commenter may think is 'funny' and 'positive'.

Yuoaman
January 19th, 2013, 02:11 PM
I think much of this issue is a lack of understanding about what exactly constructive criticism entails. If someone posts in your thread comes in and posts that everything is perfect and nothing needs to change, they are being destructive to the project, there are always improvements that can be made to anything and we shouldn't hold back to be "nice". If we were to limit ourselves to wholly positive comments we would essentially be telling people that there is no need to be flexible, that they can do no wrong. The tree that survives the storm the longest is the one that can best bend with the wind.

I'm not saying we have to go around with the purpose of only spreading negativity, but honest comments that bring up issues are orders more useful than an empty bit of phrase. "Great game, can't wait to play!" is essentially an empty and useless comment, while something along the lines of "Looking good so far, but I think the sprites are a little too low in screenshot 3," actually brings up an issue that others may have noticed, but would have gone unchanged otherwise.

While I have seen the community go through many changes - likely more than most who still visit, as I've been here for over seven years - I don't see the sense of community declining in any appreciable amount. With there being fewer "big" projects, there is a lot less for people to comment on, so people either focus their attentions on trying to improve projects with criticism or with positive reinforcement - the Supporters and Criticizers mentioned by Atomic Reactor above. The only reason this division seems to be more sharp than in years past is that there are less people entering the community, so there haven't been any major shakeups for quite some time. This isn't to say that more members would change anything in a good way, back in 2007/2008 we had a huge influx of new developers, most of which settled on making games that were incredibly homogeneous, also creating a sort of static community.

I think the issue with ego is that many have difficulties being objective about their own project. It's understandable that a person would have an emotional connection with a game they developed, but that connection does not exist for people commenting on the project. I honestly don't give a crap if someone spent eight weeks or eight minutes working on something, if I see something that could be improved it deserves criticism. Everyone should be able to feel proud of something that they made, but there shouldn't be any hurt feelings or anger when others find it less than perfect, that's life.

Now, I'm going to do a quick sample critique of this random map I found.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d39/yuoaman/TorrentTownrevamped.jpg

Honestly, it's pretty awful. You've almost copied Pallet town whole cloth, making for a pretty bland map. It isn't helped that you've chosen to use RSE tiles in a map primarily using FRLG tiles, and the clash is pretty extreme, with that tree in the center standing out particularly badly. In addition, the path you've included doesn't make much sense, surely there would be more foot traphic nearer to the lab than the houses on the left? You also need to expand the map to include a "border" of several trees on every edge so the player character doesn't walk off into the abyss or some such.

While all the comments I made were pretty negative, they all pointed out flaws in this sap's map that anyone would notice immediately. Some might argue that there should be a positive comment slipped somewhere in there, but that's not my style - it's a pretty terrible map and I feel that complimenting something in it would muddle the intention of the critique - which is that things need to change.

Feel free to respond/curse with blackest sorcery.

~JV~
January 19th, 2013, 02:55 PM
I don't see our community as extremely competitive or anything like that. To me it's just pretty much dead, I don't see many posts at all being made on any game and when there are some they are mostly from random people saying the same old stuff, complimenting the game or asking for a release date.

For me you're just taking something that is a personal concern as if it was something that happens on the entire community (seeing what happened on your game's thread on the last weeks). Man, learn something, criticism is mostly a really good thing. Together with competivity is what most helps developpers improving their games. If it's constructive, nice, you're lucky. If it's bad, well, try to take the good things out of it (they can be harsh but many times tell the truth) and ignore the bashing etc.

Remember, if nothing good can be extracted from the criticism, just ignore it or try to laugh at it(seriously). Don't get emotional over anything people say to you on the internet.

Nintendork15
January 19th, 2013, 03:04 PM
I think much of this issue is a lack of understanding about what exactly constructive criticism entails. If someone posts in your thread comes in and posts that everything is perfect and nothing needs to change, they are being destructive to the project, there are always improvements that can be made to anything and we shouldn't hold back to be "nice". If we were to limit ourselves to wholly positive comments we would essentially be telling people that there is no need to be flexible, that they can do no wrong. The tree that survives the storm the longest is the one that can best bend with the wind.

I'm not saying we have to go around with the purpose of only spreading negativity, but honest comments that bring up issues are orders more useful than an empty bit of phrase. "Great game, can't wait to play!" is essentially an empty and useless comment, while something along the lines of "Looking good so far, but I think the sprites are a little too low in screenshot 3," actually brings up an issue that others may have noticed, but would have gone unchanged otherwise.

While I have seen the community go through many changes - likely more than most who still visit, as I've been here for over seven years - I don't see the sense of community declining in any appreciable amount. With there being fewer "big" projects, there is a lot less for people to comment on, so people either focus their attentions on trying to improve projects with criticism or with positive reinforcement - the Supporters and Criticizers mentioned by Atomic Reactor above. The only reason this division seems to be more sharp than in years past is that there are less people entering the community, so there haven't been any major shakeups for quite some time. This isn't to say that more members would change anything in a good way, back in 2007/2008 we had a huge influx of new developers, most of which settled on making games that were incredibly homogeneous, also creating a sort of static community.

I think the issue with ego is that many have difficulties being objective about their own project. It's understandable that a person would have an emotional connection with a game they developed, but that connection does not exist for people commenting on the project. I honestly don't give a crap if someone spent eight weeks or eight minutes working on something, if I see something that could be improved it deserves criticism. Everyone should be able to feel proud of something that they made, but there shouldn't be any hurt feelings or anger when others find it less than perfect, that's life.

Now, I'm going to do a quick sample critique of this random map I found.

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d39/yuoaman/TorrentTownrevamped.jpg

Honestly, it's pretty awful. You've almost copied Pallet town whole cloth, making for a pretty bland map. It isn't helped that you've chosen to use RSE tiles in a map primarily using FRLG tiles, and the clash is pretty extreme, with that tree in the center standing out particularly badly. In addition, the path you've included doesn't make much sense, surely there would be more foot traphic nearer to the lab than the houses on the left? You also need to expand the map to include a "border" of several trees on every edge so the player character doesn't walk off into the abyss or some such.

While all the comments I made were pretty negative, they all pointed out flaws in this sap's map that anyone would notice immediately. Some might argue that there should be a positive comment slipped somewhere in there, but that's not my style - it's a pretty terrible map and I feel that complimenting something in it would muddle the intention of the critique - which is that things need to change.

Feel free to respond/curse with blackest sorcery.

Your criticism is good, because you make it harsh and able to stick the poster due to being honest and harsh, without sugarcoating it.

But, it's this comment:

You can tell that the main character is a special snowflake because you get a special Eevee that no one else has. He's also special because buildings expand when he enters them - and he's the only one with the eyesight to read the region map which contains one large building and mountain, rubbing shoulders of course.

In my game; there was nothing special about the Eevee, I didn't mention it was the only Eevee in the game.
You questioned natural RPG logic with the building thing, No Video Game Company would actually make a building the size it actually is on the outside as it was on the inside, in a 2D RPG. To save Space.
and I did say the map was a WIP.

You give good criticism at times, but you really need to think it through, and not do another THAT comment.

Yuoaman
January 19th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Can you link to the post in question? I have a terrible memory and I can't remember when I made it, or the context it was made in.

Nintendork15
January 19th, 2013, 03:27 PM
Can you link to the post in question? I have a terrible memory and I can't remember when I made it, or the context it was made in.

I've moved this disscussion to VM's.
Rather than filling the thread, and going off topic.

abnegation
January 19th, 2013, 05:39 PM
A lot of comments are being directed at a personal level (ie. something regarding the person rather than the topic) try keep that stuff to VM's, and keep this topic about the section, and what you like and dislike about it, what you agree with and what you don't agree with. Remember what I said is a personal view, please see my main point as being; it'd be good if we worked more as a community and I'd like to see how we could do that.

I wanted to throw that in when I opened the topic, but someone beat me to the punch in doing so. Cheers guys :)

nuzamaki90
January 19th, 2013, 05:50 PM
Back when I first joined, the Game Development community was filled with a bunch of people, even newbies, posting there games and ideas in hopes of them becoming big like hacks in the hacking community.

Now, I'v noticed that it's more about who's game has the best scripts or who's game has the coolest graphics rather than the quality. Which imo, started driving away most people because they simply thought their games could never look as good, never be as innovative, and basically never thought their games could be great.

I don't think people should start becoming Care Bears and writing nice posts about all the fangames out there, because criticism is what makes a game developer strive. You need some "Your game looks like ass" and "Fix this ****, it's like Sonic 06 but with more errors" every once in a while to know that people are actually playing your game and it can help you achieve goals to make the game better. I'm not saying users should overdue it though because I don't want to be the cause of suicides lol

I like that this topic was started and hopefully, the Game Developing Community becomes as great as it was back when I first joined, and even better than that.

Atomic Reactor
January 19th, 2013, 05:54 PM
Which imo, started driving away most people because they simply thought their games could never look as good, never be as innovative, and basically never thought their games could be great.This is actually a really good point, and I never thought about that. Maybe the higher grade games that are being produced, lower the rates of not such good quality ones, cause the creators don't think they can measure up? Idk, food for thought, definitely an interesting point there.

abnegation
January 19th, 2013, 06:10 PM
That's where encouragement can work, and too much competition can be a negative thing. I'm saying "too much", too many times have I seen people ignore it when I'm pointing out that criticism and competition are good in the right taste and environment, and need to be something that doesn't get negative, as it can be disheartening to newer and more shy developers.

Atomic Reactor
January 19th, 2013, 06:26 PM
It can be discouraging, but as I said, it will really weed out the people who have the commitment and heart to actually make a game. No it's not always fun to get criticisim, rude criticism on top of that, but I think it really helps and makes a person grow.

abnegation
January 19th, 2013, 06:36 PM
I don't think it should be our responsibility to help people grow or be more commited. To me, this is a past-time and not a method to improve my moral standing, so I'd be more keen on seeing things be a little less serious in general, and a bit more about the fun factor. I'd rather focus on those things rather than trying to get results out of people making Pokemon fan games.

Atomic Reactor
January 19th, 2013, 06:41 PM
Well no, it shouldn't be taken as serious as it is, I agree with you there. Not everyone realizes it though. So they will act the way they act because they don't really put that much thought into it. I'm basically just trying to say, you can't change the way the community acts, instead you must accept it, and look at the positives you gain from dealing with the negative comments and people.

Though this post is nice food for thought, but it's not going to change the way the community acts, I can guarantee that lol.

Yuoaman
January 19th, 2013, 06:41 PM
I think you're misunderstanding the sentiment - I really don't care if anyone here is a good person in any sense of the word. I offer criticism to help people become better game developers, and as I stated in my last post constant praise can cause people to stagnate.

jim42
January 19th, 2013, 08:05 PM
I may be mistaken, as I don't usually step into the Showcase or Beginner's thing much at all, but perhaps the reason for the lack of big projects is that people aren't posting them? I know I haven't posted anything about my game, and have no intention of doing so until such a point where I have a measurable amount of progress and either have a demo release imminent or have a requirement for assistance. With all the fancy new things that are always coming out, people always want to upgrade their stuff to the latest model and they inevitably spend more time playing catch up than advancing things themselves. As a result, they never end up with something that they feel comfortable posting about or that they feel deserves posting.

Oh, and there's also that fear of never finishing.Think about how few actually complete games we have. I can only name two off the top of my head. I have half a dozen more with demos out there. Then countless others that post about things, but no actual content is ever released. No one wants to be known as that guy who hyped everyone up for this great game but couldn't deliver and gave up.

I know all too well how that feels. I've been mucking about in RMXP for three years now. The furthest I've ever got in developing was the first gym of my first game. There have been many iterations since, never getting anywhere further. I realised that my naive, youthful ideas were really pretty bad, and the idyllic game I wanted simply wasn't feasible. That, and I didn't really have a whole picture. It was like the dots of a dot-to-dot, but nothing to join them. That is why I went out and wrote a script for my current project. A whole backstory. Characters' motivations, history, goals. The only limiting factor at any point now is graphics, which I can certainly do but takes a lot longer than typing out thousands of words in Notepad. It will only be once I'm done that I intend on making it pretty (well, I'm making it pretty to an extent now, but like everyday pretty as opposed to Hollywood pretty for later). I often spend weeks not doing anything, then weeks working my ass off, and I have no idea how long it'll take to complete, but I'll get there. Eventually. This is the attitude that everyone should have.

Atomic Reactor
January 20th, 2013, 12:22 AM
So would you say the seeing other prominent games makes you want to excel at the game you're working on? It sounds like that to me.

If that is the case, this is a prime example of competition being the driving force behind a game being improved upon solely because of the other games being out there. The creator wants to better themselves because they want to compete with the other games being produced.

Ayutac
January 20th, 2013, 01:51 AM
[...]so I'd be more keen on seeing things be a little less serious in general, and a bit more about the fun factor. I'd rather focus on those things rather than trying to get results out of people making Pokemon fan games.
I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section (http://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18) for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.

FL
January 20th, 2013, 04:42 AM
I would've love to help newbies too. But i can't script :\

About the topic. I also noted that people only post on those projects who are like already improved. I know scripters get to show their work in front of more people. But it doesn't mean Beginner/A little un supported projects can't get famouse too maybe with a lil bit of help they can skyrocket too! I wish i could script on ruby. So i could help all the newbies :).But you have other talents and knowledge, haven't? Script is only a example. There several ways to help the community. Some examples: Making sprites, guides, and even finding errors, opinions and suggestions.

I think you're misunderstanding the sentiment - I really don't care if anyone here is a good person in any sense of the word. I offer criticism to help people become better game developers, and as I stated in my last post constant praise can cause people to stagnate.Something too sincere may sounds discouraging for the authors, even if you have good intentions. The fanworks, specially the games, are delicate things for the authors. When I criticize some project/game to the developers, before I talk about things that need improvement I try to highlight good points too (sometimes this requires a good effort).

I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section (http://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18) for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.Good point. If you don't finish your game or take some years to do, this can disappoints the people that follow the project.

Peeky Chew
January 20th, 2013, 04:48 AM
I don't have long enough to read the whole thread, so I'm just going to reply to the first post.

Having been here since 2009, I do agree that game development has lost a lot of its sense of community in the last few years. But I don't think this is just a problem with this one section, it's a problem with the whole of the forum. Many older members have left and haven't been replaced by enough new members. It's one of the reasons I've mostly left the Game Development section and entirely left the rest of PC and gone to deviantART. There's a lot better community over there then there is here.

As for people criticising, I honestly don't think this is a bad thing most of the time. Yes, comments that go along the lines of "This is bad because it is" obviously don't help, but most are well written constructive criticism. If someone can't take the CC of other members, and therefore improve their game with it in mind, they shouldn't be making a game. My entire game is based around the criticism I have taken, and it looks far better than it did at first.

And people holding grudges is just something that is always going to happen in this kind of community. The majority of members are young and still immature, so will tend to hold grudges against people instead of thinking it out logically. People from this section have held grudges against me, but I really haven't taken it at all seriously because I know they're just immature. A lack of good moderation at times (such as when there were no mods) also hasn't helped.

Edit: After reading the rest of the thread, I'm probably going to double the size of this post in quotes once I get back to my computer.

Luka S.J.
January 20th, 2013, 06:30 AM
I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section (http://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18) for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.

No one here has an obligation to finish the game they are making. Like you said it's "Game Development", not "Game I must finish". You can put several different spins on the title, but I think that the constant pestering and asking of releases/dates from a developer is very dismissive of the hard work they are putting in, and quite discouraging. This is the exact attitude which isn't helping a community at all. Instead of thinking "when will they finish the game so that I can play it", you could be thinking "how could I help the game production" (if you really want to play it). I don't see anything wrong with taking one's time in producing a polished and better piece of work, rather than just spewing out complete yet unattractive crap. I've gotten criticized a lot throughout the years, for never releasing the game, taking ages to finish, or suffering from the "Duke Nukem forever" syndrome, been called a "feature creep" on numerous occasions. I simply couldn't care less. I find Game-Devving fun, and do it for that: a hobby in my spare time, something to challenge myself and sharpen my skills. I don't have any production pressure on me as the game isn't commercial, neither does the rest of the community. It is all open to the developer. If they want to release a demo/beta/early-release they can, if they don't, they don't have to. No one is forcing you to follow any game, or stopping your life for it.

This was one of the reasons I closed my thread here, as getting nagged for a release 10-15 times daily wasn't helpful or constructive. I rarely receive helpful offers, but receive a ton of requests on a daily basis. Problem is that this "community" turned into a commercial competition, where most of the people just want attention/praise - but that is human nature. People will have no problem screwing you over just so that they can achieve a personal goal. You see that everywhere: school, internet, commerce, etc. There is also the segment of us getting more and more people starting to make games with the mindset of "who can help me" rather than "how can I help myself". Since it is a hobby, not too many really have the patience to do any real problem solving. I've seen some ridiculous threads being opened here where people post their error messages asking for help, where all you had to do is read the message and change what the message said was wrong (this is what they are for). I personally loose interest in a community like that. I had discussions on such topics with Maruno and Abnegation, and now another one here. I always keep asking myself, why do I even bother? This thread will probably become inactive soon, pushed into the archives, and then people will come again doing the same crap over and over again. I've been here for over 4 years, and I've seen it all happen again and again. I believe those are the reasons why the better gamedevs (like Neo-Dragon, Wichu, Flameguru, Poccil, etc) left this community. And with them gone, and not many to fill their shoes, the quality of the community is going down the drain.

Ben.
January 20th, 2013, 06:30 AM
And people holding grudges is just something that is always going to happen in this kind of community. The majority of members are young and still immature, so will tend to hold grudges against people instead of thinking it out logically. People from this section have held grudges against me, but I really haven't taken it at all seriously because I know they're just immature. A lack of good moderation at times (such as when there were no mods) also hasn't helped.

A good point but it's too personal really, you can't blame the downfall of the section based on someone that does or doesn't have a grudge. If they do hold a grudge, they're more likely to not even look at the thread or talk to the member, that happens everywhere. It's not a sole reason for this all.
I agree that what really put a spanner in the works was having no mod, but that's not the GameDev community's fault. Hell, mods sometimes even leave off topic threads in the wrong section here open, just to stop this whole place from dying.

abnegation
January 20th, 2013, 06:37 AM
I think the section would benefit a lot if there was more going on. So more competitons, such as map-offs, small game making competitions, more community projects to help out essentials, working together to make more resources, and in general, more things that bring the section to life.

Really should have said that earlier but posting on a phone can be tedious. Would you guys be up for that? Another example would be finally getting the GDM moving. That'd benefit from being a community effort, or multiple people, it's a big challenge for one person alone.

Riansky
January 20th, 2013, 07:19 AM
I agree with Abnegation. We should really have some maping competitions, screenshot competitions and stuff like that. I think that will bring the GD comunnity a bit closer and we'll make more friends that way I suppose.

The threads in beginner showcase rearly get any posts or constructive critics on the work. Why is it like that? Because it is beginner showcase ? There are some really good games/ideas in beginner showcase but its sad to see a potential game has about 10 post and 8 of them are when is the game going to be released or where is the download link. Its really sad to see that and it keeps you from updating here really. We have to do something about that and whole GD comunnity.

carmaniac
January 20th, 2013, 08:20 AM
I disagree here. While making games can be fun, I think the focus should be on completing them. Don't you hate it when you play a wonderful game and realize you can't go further because no one developed it further, and not only yet but never because he/she quitted? You would miss the part you can't play ever. If this game would have never been released, you wouldn't miss anything. It's a bit like love. But personally, I would pass the joy for not having to miss it. The game I mean.
The second thing is, this is "Game Development" and not "Game Let's start one and never finish it". If one just wants to mess around a little bit / have fun with others, there is the RPG-Section (http://www.pokecommunity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=18) for that.
I may sound radical to you, but these are my thoughts.

Reading this post has irritated me quite a bit. No matter which you spin this sections name off, it will always be a section for others to show off their work. People like you don't seem to realise this one fact, these games are not made by dedicated teams, most of them are made by either a single person, or on average 3-5 people. They are not getting paid to make these games, they do not have to complete it just to please others who are playing the game for FREE. It's a hobby of theirs to try out making their own fan game of an existing franchise, it's not their job, it's not the peoples choice as to whether it gets finished, it's their time, their project, if they don't want to finish the game anymore due to lack of interest, then it's up to them, not us. At the end of the day, yes, it does make disappointment to those who are following the game, but quite frankly, if you want a game complete, do it yourself. Note, "Game Development Come here to discuss your games, and the tools used to create them." not "Game Development Come here to complete your game so arrogant gits can complain about it" nor "Game Development Come here to not finish your game."

pkmn.master
January 20th, 2013, 08:45 AM
There are many great points here in this thread. I haven't had time to read them all, but the gist of things is easy to pick up, myself being a member and a part of the game development empire of Pokecommunity for about 6 or 7 years. I think that as the Game Development section has progressed over the last few years, we have strayed from the basic ideas that give existence to the section itself. The problem isn't on decreasing numbers of finished games, no. It is deeper. It is a problem that leads to few games, and fewer interested members. A big problem I seem to see all the time revolves around the cockiness of greater experienced users. When I was new here years ago, I was welcomed to warm responses from advanced users such as Flameguru. These users brought me to the experience level that I am at now (not just with the RPG Maker program and infamous starter kit, but in game development overall). Nowadays when you see a new user show up here, you also see their attempts to fit in thwarted by some random arrogant user. I can't help but to feel sorry for the new user, since I realize that I was once new to all of this. I don't fully understand how they feel, though, since I was never given destructive criticism back years ago. It must be intimidating for them, and probably turns many away from this section. If we could bring in more new users, and allow them to hit the ground running with enough experience to get farther on their own, then perhaps we wouldn't have to worry about the eventual death of this portion of the most beloved Pokémon forum. We have many tutorials, but I feel that there needs to be a very long and detailed tutorial, almost a book, that could allow these users to get going, or maybe a sub thread for new users that is accompanied by an advanced one, that involves some type of schooling. That's just my two-cents. If anyone agrees, then great. If anyone doesn't, then post some kind of arrogant response giving reason on why your opinion is better than mine - I dare you.

Ayutac
January 20th, 2013, 08:50 AM
@carmaniac:
I know these points. "most of them are made by either a single person, or on average 3-5 people." and "not getting paid to make these games, [...] just to please others who are playing the game for FREE" apply to me as well.
Of course they don't have the duty to finish, as people don't have that when writing stories or painting images. But it sucks when they don't and they should start with the attitude to finish and trying their best to do so after recognizing their game is somewhat popular. Or at least release the source code or something like that...

As said, I may sound a little bit radical. Maybe because I'm a mathematican / computer scientist. I'm used to get things finished. You can't code a package halfway and release it then, same goes for proofs. And being an author before these two, I'm also sad when you don't finish a story.

EDIT: But I may add that it is fascinating how you guys actually got a new form to express the love to the fandom, standing aside with writing, drawing and composing: Creating games.

Rolyataylor2
January 25th, 2013, 11:55 AM
I have seen a few projects similar to my project and I try to not be negative. I have played with Jext on Pokengine and try to offer my own opinions. Features that are received well with my users I send him the suggestion of using them in his engine. He hasn't played my game but he knows I am working on it and has given me positive comments about the development process.

I think people who are negative of others projects are usually intimidated by the other user's project. If you have confidence in what you are doing then others shouldn't be a threat. If you keep a positive attitude and get your ideas out there then you will probably retain credit for your suggestion.

I understand the negative attitude, people are paranoid that others will steal your ideas or project. Everyone wants to be the topic poster who has 1000000 views and 10000 posts. But good games are usually not just one person working on the project it is usually a team of people working together and no one person takes all the glory. Making video games takes a team. There is no way around that. If you have good opinions and can contribute then you can get on the credits of the project and that should be enough. Because if you think you will waltz in and become the Member of the year because of your RPG maker project then you need to mature a little.

I agree that new members are treated a little different in the community. I have been programming for 10 years but just recently created an account. I do tend to get the cold shoulder where I go. Not blaming anyone because i can see the forum being flooded with spam if everyone is allowed to do whatever they want. And number of posts and age of account are the only numbers to go by.

Dragonite Ernston
January 26th, 2013, 06:24 PM
Your criticism is good, because you make it harsh and able to stick the poster due to being honest and harsh, without sugarcoating it.

The only thing that will stick about such harsh criticism (especially when it's not asked for) is that the person giving it is somebody to be avoided. While you should still tell people what's wrong, if you really want to help them, you must always be careful and sensitive in how you word things. Otherwise you come off as judgmental and unsupportive.

kieran@home
February 13th, 2013, 07:42 AM
that's a tune we can all sing to!

audinowho
March 3rd, 2013, 10:38 AM
It's strange how this section's attracted me so much that I feel like it's a part of me, and yet have never really posted or looked around much anywhere. Sometimes I wonder if the shift in demographic for the franchise ever had anything to do with it. I wouldn't know how something like that would be negative, but I keep seeing evidence of that shift.

Atomic Reactor
March 3rd, 2013, 01:42 PM
What do you mean by a shift in demographic?

audinowho
March 3rd, 2013, 09:06 PM
Going by the little bits of posts here and there, the community seems to have grown up over time as the 4-10 year-olds that were hit by the fad in 1998-2000 became a next generation with a different set of responsibilities. An extreme example happens with Pokemon Crater where going off to college pretty much excised them from the fanbase. It's by no means hard evidence, but Bulbagarden's long-standing poll to its community about ages has a huge bump in the 1992-births area. It's likely that the birthdates of the community will be slowly moving over as time passes, but seeing as the day of the fad was the time when the franchise really was at its best, it could be said that we're past the point where we can rely on the series's own interest to put the interest in fangaming. Actually, a better way to say it would probably be that the demographic has shifted over.

I do remember the times when there were always a few games popping up here and there in idea-concept stage. Boy do I miss those days... false hope or not at least there was hope...