PDA

View Full Version : [Discussion] Why does ROM Hacking outshine us?


Lord Varion
January 20th, 2013, 05:29 AM
I've noticed this, I'm sure you all have too.

But ROM hacking always seems to be more popular, and more viewed than the Game Development section, also there appears to be more ROM Hackers than Developers?

Which confused me?
I've tried both in my Life Time, and Game Development with RPG Maker seems alot easier.
As a ROM Hacker; I could only Map. That's the only skill that doesn't require you to constantly stare at a tutorial for scripting and music hacking.
As a Developer; I can Map, Insert Tiles, Music, Make Events, and a full game with ease.

So, why does it outshine us?

Crystal Noel
January 20th, 2013, 07:53 PM
It is probably the Price Tag on the development software.
RPG Maker VX Ace is $70 and used to be $90. I got VX for $60 and XP for $40. The 3 most ideal programs cost a little too much money to some people. Not to mention XP is the only one with a Starter Kit right now as CNG's Kit is virtually dead and mine still need some key features to be demo material and some major database and visual after that.(Visual will probably be backgrounds to replace the windows in some scenes.)

KingCharizard
January 20th, 2013, 07:58 PM
its because, well in my opinion Rom hacking takes more skill and requires you to learn actual code, and hacking is a popular way to mod video games, most people dont know about or have heard of essentials..

DaSpirit
January 20th, 2013, 08:07 PM
It might be harder as KingCharizard says, but I still wonder how/why people keep doing it. It is limiting compared to game programming even though it takes much less time to create something interesting with it.

Yamiidenryuu
January 20th, 2013, 08:28 PM
Money definitely has something to do with it. I don't want to shell out any cash until I'm fairly sure of what I want to do with my game so I can make sure I get whatever program is best for me, but if I decided I wanted to do a ROM hack instead, I could just grab a ROM and some of the tools off Google and get started, with nothing lost but my time if it doesn't work out. Until there's a free RPG making program out there with a functional Pokemon starter kit, this kind of jumping in and experimenting isn't going to happen, which means development moves a lot slower than it might. (Or that's how it seems to me, anyway.)

I think someone on one of the other threads mentioned that there're more tools to aid in development for ROM hacking than there are for the kind of programs used in GD, too, but I have no idea how true that is.

Piplup - Hacker
January 20th, 2013, 08:34 PM
As a ROM hacker, I can tell you the answer.
People like a challenge. When you're hacking you take the limitations you have and you try your best to make something amazing out of it! It's awesome, in my opinion.
I have RPG Maker and tried it out, and honestly it's TOO easy for me :s
There aren't as many developers for the reason mentioned above; the pricetag.
Also, you'd be surprised in how many people don't know what GameDEV is. All they know is that there are people who hack mainstream pokemon games.

Not to mention that in almost any forum on PC you go to, you get the "LOOKING FOR ROM HACKING?" message.

DaSpirit
January 20th, 2013, 09:36 PM
I think someone on one of the other threads mentioned that there're more tools to aid in development for ROM hacking than there are for the kind of programs used in GD, too, but I have no idea how true that is.
I think that might have been me, but I was referring to Essentials, not necessarily Game Dev. If you take a look at all of the tools for ROM hacking, they all look easier than using Essentials or programming from scratch.

They look nice. It has simple line fields you edit and easy buttons you click when you want to add something. Honestly, it seems easier if you use a program specifically made for the purpose you need. If Cilerba's PBS editor was complete and he also makes a mapping software to replace RPG Maker's and looks like Advance Map, I bet people will really start making the transfer. Let's face it, text files are boring wall and maybe Essentials needs a few upgrades.

It's time someone starts working on something like this. Whether it's for Essentials or for a superior engine...

As a ROM hacker, I can tell you the answer.
People like a challenge. When you're hacking you take the limitations you have and you try your best to make something amazing out of it! It's awesome, in my opinion.
I have RPG Maker and tried it out, and honestly it's TOO easy for me :s
There's more of a challenge when making your own game if you do it right and make something innovative. Less limitations means more potential.

andytu
January 21st, 2013, 04:09 AM
I've always felt it was because with ROM hacking, if you do it right, the end product has exactly the feel of a main series game. However good Essentials etc. are, they'll never feel exactly the same I don't think...

Pharetra
January 21st, 2013, 07:48 AM
I'm quite familiar with the Rom Hacking forum as I joined PC to showcase my hack four years ago (it was terrible...lol) and from what I've noticed there back then, many people joined because they wanted to make a hack themselves, inspired by many of the popular hacks out there (think of Shiny Gold, Light Platinum, Ruby Destiny, etc.) and the vast amount of tutorials available. Really, there were over 5 pages of tutorials in the old days whereas here there are...maybe five tutorials? I can't really remember seeing over five tutorials anyway.

In short, because of the great hacks people become more interested in the section. We have a few great-looking games too, but most of them aren't playable and so won't really get the attention of most people. The complete lack of a tutorial section (true, there is the PE Wiki, but seeing some threads in the PE section, I don't think all people know about it yet) doesn't really help either.

Anyway, that is what I think, it may very well be not true, but still, it is possible ;)

Ben.
January 21st, 2013, 08:07 AM
I think it's due to how limited ROM hacking is, and when something happens it's a big deal. With game dev, there are so many more things we can do, making it less monumental say, when the '649 patch' came out, it was huge. But to us, that's nothing.

pkmn.master
January 21st, 2013, 08:58 AM
Yea. With ROM hacking, you are really limited to what you can achieve as opposed to RMXP. You have to have great skill to do something normally easy on RMXP, so as Ben. said, if you make something great in ROM hacking, it brings more attention. Another reason might be that not many people have heard of RMXP or Essentials than those who have heard of ROMS.

Mana
January 21st, 2013, 09:29 AM
To add to what other people are saying, I think the limitations of hacking is actually quite a positive thing...

For one, even though inserting maps can be a hassle - you already have loads of examples to mess with. Need any more maps? Not really. Can you reuse a lot of indoor maps? Yep yep.

Also the limitations of game mechanics and things is rarely a problem in pokemon games - although you might have the odd brilliant idea, most of it is going to stay the same.

I have tried both though, software, resources and the lack of (understandable) tutorials was what turned me off Game Making though. The only things that are easier are having access to such a big range of tiles and making scripts easily changable.

Edit:// Also I seem to remember some members in the game dev section being VERY critical to newbies, which put me off a lot.

Rayquaza.
January 21st, 2013, 09:50 AM
To hit the nail on the head; ROM hacking has a wider variety of tools whereas game dev is fairly limited to the RPG maker and game maker, with ROM hacking there is an evergrowing range of tools to hack newer ROMs with...

The price for RPG Maker and game maker is a contributing factor "why pay for game dev tools when you can just grab a ROM and hack it", that is a quote from my brother...

With RPG maker a certain level of scripting is required as well - with ROM hacking all the stuff needed is right there, all you need to do is rearrange it slightly...

Conan Edogawa
January 21st, 2013, 10:18 AM
To hit the nail on the head; ROM hacking has a wider variety of tools whereas game dev is fairly limited to the RPG maker and game maker, with ROM hacking there is an evergrowing range of tools to hack newer ROMs with...

The price for RPG Maker and game maker is a contributing factor "why pay for game dev tools when you can just grab a ROM and hack it", that is a quote from my brother...

With RPG maker a certain level of scripting is required as well - with ROM hacking all the stuff needed is right there, all you need to do is rearrange it slightly...

RMXP and Game Maker are only a tiny sampling of Game Development. There are countless other engines, as well as tools like XNA out there, they just aren't shown around here as often.

I agree with what SwiftSign said, and they brought up a very good point. When I first tried hacking, I was welcomed in and shown the ropes by a few members, and felt welcome. However, when I tried Game Development with Essentials I was cast away and got very little help from others. On the note of the Wiki, the documentation is nice nd useful, but not what most people are looking for. They want tutorials that help them apply what they've read, and to tell them the practical uses of the various aspect. And as of right now this section is severely lacking that aspect.

BlitŻ
January 21st, 2013, 10:22 AM
I think it is that everything is already laid out in the exact style people expect from a Pokemon game. Every little quirk they remember from that game as a kid from the running animations to the sound is ready and available to them. The Pokemon Essentials kit only provides a decent simulation however, and due to it being based on the RMXP engine it too has it's limits, and it ends at perfecting the Pokemon style.

However, if someone was to program an engine with the aim to seamlessly emulate that style while creating the tools necessary to create a game like Rom hacking has (XSE, Advance Map, and the large amount of tools created), it would be beneficial to the GameDev section, but that is a whole another problem unto itself.

nuzamaki90
January 21st, 2013, 10:23 AM
Price Tag and the amount of tools comes to mind when thinking why Rom Hacking is superior in popularity than Game Developing.

Imo, one of the key reasons why is inspiration. There are barely any fangames that people can actually play, and most of the ones that are available for play are either terrible, not a lot of work was put into it, terrible, not worth playing, terrible, extremely old, oh, and terrible.

If you go in the Rom Hacking forum, there are hundreds of hacks just waiting to be played by newcomers. And most are actually WORTH playing. The first hack/fangame I ever played was Pokemon Quartz, studied up on hacks for a while, not ever coming across "fangame" or "game devs".

Pokemon Fans that always dreamed of making their own can just play an entire library of Pokemon hacks and even though imo, it's harder to make a hack than a Game Dev, they have a bunch of tools, resources, and other hacks to look upon if they ever get stuck, need ideas, ect. I honestly cant say the same about the Game Dev department.

Spherical Ice
January 21st, 2013, 10:23 AM
As someone who's tried both, I think ROM Hacking, because it's so much more finicky to accomplish small things, is a LOT more gratifying than making games with Essentials. Things as basic as inserting tiles and getting them to look OK with a limited palette to things like getting some special effect like an earthquake to work properly using assets already in the ROM.

Hacking Pokémon games is something that lets you potentially play your own creation on a handheld, which is so much more satisfying and makes that dream of making your own Pokémon game that much more accessible.

Also, people with experience hacking Mario or Sonic games probably understand the syntaxes etc. used for hacking Pokémon which probably broadens the people hacking though I'm just guessing there.

NarutoActor
January 21st, 2013, 10:27 AM
I am surprised no one mentioned the fact that, with rom hacking you can play your game on a real game engine. :)

DaSpirit
January 21st, 2013, 10:28 AM
RMXP and Game Maker are only a tiny sampling of Game Development. There are countless other engines, as well as tools like XNA out there, they just aren't shown around here as often.

Throw out GameMaker and XNA and anything else you can think of, as it does not have a fully fledged engine for Pokemon already.

Hopefully people are listening. As I have said before, we need to create new tools. This is what all new engine needs to have in mind. GameMaker, XNA, Python, Java, etc is not meant to create RPGs, so you can only guess that it is harder to produce something with it.

Lord Varion
January 21st, 2013, 10:35 AM
Throw out GameMaker and XNA and anything else you can think of, as it does not have a fully fledged engine for Pokemon already.

Hopefully people are listening. As I have said before, we need to create new tools. This is what all new engine needs to have in mind. GameMaker, XNA, Python, Java, etc is not meant to create RPGs, so you can only guess that it is harder to produce something with it.

If I had the knowledge to make tools.
I'd support you in making tools, and help out.

Riansky
January 21st, 2013, 10:54 AM
Throw out GameMaker and XNA and anything else you can think of, as it does not have a fully fledged engine for Pokemon already.

Hopefully people are listening. As I have said before, we need to create new tools. This is what all new engine needs to have in mind. GameMaker, XNA, Python, Java, etc is not meant to create RPGs, so you can only guess that it is harder to produce something with it.

What kind of tools are you actually refering too ?

DaSpirit
January 21st, 2013, 11:01 AM
What kind of tools are you actually refering too ?
To make it easier to edit and add. To increase productivity to the point where it's as easy as ROM Hacking.

Lord Varion
January 21st, 2013, 11:03 AM
To make it easier to edit and add. To increase productivity to the point where it's as easy as ROM Hacking.

I thought Cilerba was making an Easy to use PBS editor?

Riansky
January 21st, 2013, 11:05 AM
To make it easier to edit and add. To increase productivity to the point where it's as easy as ROM Hacking.

Good Idea. Rom hacking have lots of tools like that. And It will make Game Dev much more fun in my opinion. Editing PBS files is pain in the ass for me, so it will be nice to have some kind of tool for that. Speaking about rpgxp and essentials.

Anyway I think that rom hacking outshine us just because its limitations. We don't need to care about let say color limitations be rom hackers have to. In my opinion game dev is much more fun, and if you know scripting, the only limitation is your own imagination.

DaSpirit
January 21st, 2013, 11:49 AM
I thought Cilerba was making an Easy to use PBS editor?
He was but then he told me this morning that he lost the code.

Catman
January 21st, 2013, 11:51 AM
I am surprised no one mentioned the fact that, with rom hacking you can play your game on a real game engine. :)
That's not a good way to preserve the lifetime of the hardware.

I've seen a fair few hacks from Sonic Retro and they test a lot of them for Cartridge based compatibility and even the slightest of changes can render a ROM unplayable on the console as well as many emulators. I don't know how much different it would be for GB line games but I can assume going overboard would not be kind on hardware or emulators alike.

Crystal Noel
January 21st, 2013, 11:55 AM
I agree a lot of people play ROM Hacks via Emulator. I have never once a ROM Hack in cartridge form. I have seen some fakes, but those were for legit games.

DaSpirit
January 21st, 2013, 12:09 PM
That's not a good way to preserve the lifetime of the hardware.

I've seen a fair few hacks from Sonic Retro and they test a lot of them for Cartridge based compatibility and even the slightest of changes can render a ROM unplayable on the console as well as many emulators. I don't know how much different it would be for GB line games but I can assume going overboard would not be kind on hardware or emulators alike.
Yes and with GameMaker, I can make Windows, PC, Windows 8, Windows 8 Phone, Android, iPhone and HTML5 games using a single codebase. Now this doesn't say much because there isn't an existing complete Pokemon engine on it, but it's better than playing on a Gameboy.

Catman
January 21st, 2013, 12:23 PM
Yes and with GameMaker, I can make Windows, PC, Windows 8, Windows 8 Phone, Android, iPhone and HTML5 games using a single codebase. Now this doesn't say much because there isn't an existing complete Pokemon engine on it, but it's better than playing on a Gameboy.
Never did I mention Pokemon in my post. As Varion said 'Everyone assumes Pokemon'.

If you talk to the guys at Sonic Retro they'd more likely tell you that they'd prefer playing on original hardware. Whether you prefer doing something via PC because there is a single code base for it or not that disregards the consistency of code in hacking.

Yuoaman
January 21st, 2013, 12:30 PM
Because this forum is the center of the Pokemon ROM Hacking community, at least for English speakers. While PC could also be claimed as the home of Pokemon Essentials, the ROM Hacking community existed long before Essentials, and it's taken years to build up this much of a community at all. At one point this forum was buried deep and it got very little exposure to PC's member base at large - and that remains a problem to this day. Plus, proper game development requires a much greater investment, and a lot of those who find themselves involved in PC's ROM Hacking community are kids looking for a hobby that they don't have to spend much time on.

So, if anything, I blame the school system.

~JV~
January 21st, 2013, 12:59 PM
Because this forum is the center of the Pokemon ROM Hacking community, at least for English speakers. While PC could also be claimed as the home of Pokemon Essentials, the ROM Hacking community existed long before Essentials, and it's taken years to build up this much of a community at all. At one point this forum was buried deep and it got very little exposure to PC's member base at large - and that remains a problem to this day. Plus, proper game development requires a much greater investment, and a lot of those who find themselves involved in PC's ROM Hacking community are kids looking for a hobby that they don't have to spend much time on.

So, if anything, I blame the school system.

That plus the fact that (on my opinion) people here are too perfectionist and pretty much never release even a small demo per say. No games to play equals no popularity, that equals less and less people interested in joining the Game Dev community since it looks like people can't get anything out of it.

Catman
January 21st, 2013, 02:11 PM
That plus the fact that (on my opinion) people here are too perfectionist and pretty much never release even a small demo per say. No games to play equals no popularity, that equals less and less people interested in joining the Game Dev community since it looks like people can't get anything out of it.
Such irony, many projects I've seen (Although actually Sonic hacks) have been cancelled or died due to the person who started it not wanting to continue anymore...

Crystal Noel
January 21st, 2013, 02:16 PM
That plus the fact that (on my opinion) people here are too perfectionist and pretty much never release even a small demo per say. No games to play equals no popularity, that equals less and less people interested in joining the Game Dev community since it looks like people can't get anything out of it.

You have to fairly serious in Game Dev, it takes time. It is a fairly committed hobby and you really don't have much room for other things. I used to play consol video games a lot until I discover RPG Maker VX.

Lord Varion
January 21st, 2013, 02:26 PM
You have to fairly serious in Game Dev, it takes time. It is a fairly committed hobby and you really don't have much room for other things. I used to play consol video games a lot until I discover RPG Maker VX.

I go to college, a part time job, casual gaming club, yugioh club, go to hospital every friday for my diabetes, and have time for the casual console game, and Game Dev.

You don't have to spend 24 hours on Game Dev. :l

Crystal Noel
January 21st, 2013, 02:34 PM
I go to college, a part time job, casual gaming club, yugioh club, go to hospital every friday for my diabetes, and have time for the casual console game, and Game Dev.

You don't have to spend 24 hours on Game Dev. :l
I just want to get my starter kit out ASAP. So, I focus on the kit. I will probably find more time after I get my demo done (and I am one script away).

Lord Varion
January 21st, 2013, 02:39 PM
I just want to get my starter kit out ASAP. So, I focus on the kit. I will probably find more time after I get my demo done (and I am one script away).

Still, I used to do it non stop, but it made me grow bored way too easily of it.
So I stopped, thus Pokécommunity is now filled with millions of my dead projects. :I

BlackNekos
January 21st, 2013, 06:26 PM
I think game development is growing, but there are hacks which go beyond what the rom should be capable of so people get interested with that...

Maruno
January 22nd, 2013, 05:22 AM
Maybe it's because you barely have to learn anything to start making a game with RMXP, whereas you need to learn stuff before you even get started with ROM hacking. It therefore comes as more of a hurdle when you want to do something more than the absolute basics in RMXP, and it puts people off who had just gotten the idea that it was easy. With ROM hacking, you have the mindset that you'll need to learn things from the very beginning, so learning a bit more isn't such a shock.

That plus the utter lack of completed games to inspire people. The fact that Essentials is only an approximation of the Pokémon games may be another factor.

Arma
January 22nd, 2013, 05:52 AM
Let me tell you all a little story:

Years ago, I was looking to find a way to play Pokemon games on my pc.
When I found out about rom-hacking that way. At first I wanted just to edit a few small things. Like making certain Pokemon more powerful, or allowing to find wild Totodile on route 1. I then realized it was possible not just edit a few little things, but to create completely new game altogether. And that's how I found out about ROM hacking.

I think my story applies a lot of other people out there too... Some people may not have the intention to make Pokemon games at first, they just stumble upon it like I did.

FL
January 22nd, 2013, 03:49 PM
Several reasons:

The RPG Maker XP price ($30).

The ROM hacks have a very better compatibility (of corse, not all ROMs can be fully played in all emulators)

Game Hacking have some features that the main starter kit (Essentials) doesn't have (yet) like Contest/Animations, but in Essentials is very easy to do some events/custom systens and even add 500 big maps with a huge number of tilesets, put 1000 custom pokémon/trainers.

And...
Because this forum is the center of the Pokemon ROM Hacking community, at least for English speakers. While PC could also be claimed as the home of Pokemon Essentials, the ROM Hacking community existed long before Essentials, and it's taken years to build up this much of a community at all. At one point this forum was buried deep and it got very little exposure to PC's member base at large - and that remains a problem to this day. Plus, proper game development requires a much greater investment, and a lot of those who find themselves involved in PC's ROM Hacking community are kids looking for a hobby that they don't have to spend much time on.

So, if anything, I blame the school system.Exact. I think that the main point is: The gamers know about hacks (like Mario, Sonic, Megaman, Pokémon, etc...) very more that the existing starter kits (specially Essentials who doesn't has a divulgation that it deserves) and theirs features.

That plus the fact that (on my opinion) people here are too perfectionist and pretty much never release even a small demo per say. No games to play equals no popularity, that equals less and less people interested in joining the Game Dev community since it looks like people can't get anything out of it.This is a generally non-profit game development problem. If you aren't too perfectionist, few people will support you and you end up giving up. If you are too perfectionist, you game will take years and you/someone in your team eventually become bored and give up.

Let me tell you all a little story:

Years ago, I was looking to find a way to play Pokemon games on my pc.
When I found out about rom-hacking that way. At first I wanted just to edit a few small things. Like making certain Pokemon more powerful, or allowing to find wild Totodile on route 1. I then realized it was possible not just edit a few little things, but to create completely new game altogether. And that's how I found out about ROM hacking.

I think my story applies a lot of other people out there too... Some people may not have the intention to make Pokemon games at first, they just stumble upon it like I did.This is important too. In ROM Hacking is fast to edit a game to include all pokémon only changing the encounters and putting some overworld that can be battled pokémon and NPCs that give the pokémon or even change trainers parties, but in Game Dev you need to create a entire game that may sounds intimidating. Theses small change are really effective for beginners.

Maybe it's because you barely have to learn anything to start making a game with RMXP, whereas you need to learn stuff before you even get started with ROM hacking. It therefore comes as more of a hurdle when you want to do something more than the absolute basics in RMXP, and it puts people off who had just gotten the idea that it was easy. With ROM hacking, you have the mindset that you'll need to learn things from the very beginning, so learning a bit more isn't such a shock.

That plus the utter lack of completed games to inspire people. The fact that Essentials is only an approximation of the Pokémon games may be another factor.I'm uncertain about the first paragraph, but the lack of successful projects/games I believe that is a reason. Good games/devs lures people, similar to good singers/actors, and these people may will make/be good games/devs. Success is like a snow ball.