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matt0044
May 21st, 2013, 12:27 PM
While I don't have any solid opinions on this debate, I'm wondering what people here think about Japanese Animation compared to Western Animation. Please don't be rude and be constructive in your opinions be it about animation, art, storytelling, tendencies, things one has over the other, etc. You can debate with each other so long as it don't boil down to insulting others.

Have fun.

Freezer
May 21st, 2013, 01:12 PM
Interesting topic.

I personally prefer charm and a light hearted story over anything else, also artstyle is important. Because of that, I'm going with cartoons. I view a handful of cartoons (Samurai Jack, Ed, Edd n Eddy, etc) as work of arts, whereas there's only a few anime that I consider a masterpiece. I also find western art style (Samurai Jack is the KING of this) much more endearing and charming than most anime. Not to mention, in terms of animations and details, I feel cartoons got this in the bag.

In that case yeah, cartoons easily win for me. Not to say anime doesn't have any good traits, because Cross Game is a charming and endearing anime rich of little details and small, great comedy. Just an interesting fact, but between my favorite anime (Cross Game) and my favorite cartoon (Samurai Jack), I actually like Cross Game more, despite my above choice. I like a lot more cartoons than anime, though.

Sweets Witch
May 21st, 2013, 01:46 PM
I like anime, but I have a healthy respect for cartoons and I don't understand why people trash-talk modern cartoons in favor of older ones when there are some real gems out there. Phineas & Ferb and Gravity Falls are a couple of my favorites, and it really gets on my nerves when people say that there are no "good" modern cartoons. While "good" is extremely subjective and varies from person to person, it's pretty dense to flat-out deny the success of shows like Adventure Time just because it isn't something that aired in the early 2000's.

But my first love will always be anime because of the better potential to obtain high-quality tie-in products. It's like rediscovering my childhood; I open the box and see a SHF Cure Lemonade figure and my mind goes back to the days when I would fish the toy out of the Happy Meal box at McDonalds.

Esper
May 22nd, 2013, 01:41 PM
I think the distinctions are blurring more and more as time goes by. People in the "West" are inspired by Japanese anime and vice versa, and it shows in the animation styles, stories, etc. They aren't the same, but I would expect that maybe ten years from now most people won't differentiate. Sure, we'll know if something was made in Japan or wherever, but we probably won't think "Oh, those Japanese shows are so _____" like they're so different in content. Of course there will always be a market for things that are very "Japanese" or whatever so niche styles of animation and storytelling will probably always be around.

Weeaboo Name
May 22nd, 2013, 02:15 PM
They're the same thing, why are we putting them against eachother again?

LORD ANTE
May 22nd, 2013, 04:17 PM
I think the only thing that currently composes the barrier that separates 'western' cartoons from any other cartoon, and that's how the story is told and and the animation is presented. Anime are very commonly associated with things like slice of life that have no means other than to be entertaining and relatable, and action/adventure, a very common genre with a well-populated fanbase.

Of course, anime and western cartoons are often the only ones pictured when one mentions 'x cartoon(s) versus x cartoon(s)' and that's unfair. There are plenty of cultures, such as Indian, that are doing (and have been!) gearing their storytelling towards other things, such as mythological presences (http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/1530163/report-busting-the-myth-of-indian-cartoons), while there are some more notable cartoons, like ones being produced by a Beijing-based company (http://english.cntv.cn/program/cultureexpress/20111022/104963.shtml), that spin their yarns in an identifiable, altruistic manner.

TRIFORCE89
May 22nd, 2013, 04:29 PM
If you want story, anime series would be the way to go. They tend to have a definite end-point in place from series conception. There are multi-episode arcs, character development, etc.

Cartoons usually play for laughs. Even when they're more mature, they're still largely single self-contained episode outings.

But, personally I prefer cartoons because I am really not fond of the look of anime characters or the animation visual quality. Except for the pretty backgrounds

Greenbeans
May 22nd, 2013, 05:51 PM
Anime of course, Better story, art and music. Cartoons are great when your a kid but otherwise anime wins hands down.

Satoshi Ookami
May 23rd, 2013, 12:15 AM
Animation and art... compare anything anime produced in the last let's say 20 years and it will overcome anything cartoons produced.
Storytelling? Again, anime beats anything. Anime has the best storytelling in animated works.

Together, anime is much better ;)
I don't hate cartoons but... they are just not good enough.

Miss Anne Thrope
May 23rd, 2013, 04:34 PM
I prefer cartoons, adult or childlike. Certain animes have good plots, but it seems like almost every one gets lost in cheap sexual tension and girls with ridiculously large bosoms. Even (or should I say, especially) in serious action animes. Not to mention the English dubs always have terrible voice actors.
The art style in anime is beautiful and I believe it's impacted 21st century artists. There's no defined line between "western" and "anime" anymore, people mix them and create their own style a lot (take Avatar the last Airbender for example) and just get really creative.

TRIFORCE89
May 23rd, 2013, 07:17 PM
Animation and art... compare anything anime produced in the last let's say 20 years and it will overcome anything cartoons produced.
That's personal preference. I really can't stand the anime look. I think toddler cartoons even have more distinct and varied art style than anime does XD

The art style in anime is beautiful and I believe it's impacted 21st century artists. There's no defined line between "western" and "anime" anymore, people mix them and create their own style a lot (take Avatar the last Airbender for example) and just get really creative.
And despite what I said, that's true too

LORD ANTE
May 23rd, 2013, 07:21 PM
people mix them and create their own style a lot (take Avatar the last Airbender for example) and just get really creative.
Ah yes, that's a fine example. Thing is, I don't feel the art style for that is all that akin to eastern cartoons, though there is some likeness present, and that it reflects the style of western artists much easier. Of course, the storytelling and imagination behind is much, much more obviously taken from styles like that of anime and I originally thought it was an anime, ahaha.

Satoshi Ookami
May 23rd, 2013, 10:51 PM
That's personal preference. I really can't stand the anime look. I think toddler cartoons even have more distinct and varied art style than anime does XD
And that's even more personal preference =) You even said "I" can't stand.
That goes for you :P
Objectively anime has much better animation ;)

Ryoutarou
May 24th, 2013, 12:04 AM
Objectively anime has much better animation ;)
Yeah, I really don't think that's true at all. What are you using for your objective basis? Anime and cartoons come in all shapes and sizes. I can say The Legend of Korra and Young Justice are two of those most polished pieces of animation made in the last decade, and they're definitely some of my favorite from an animation stand point, but I only consider that when I'm ranking them against or products going for a realistic look. Is it really fair to compare something realistic against something that's stylistic? And that stylistic look is what most anime go for, it's rare to find shows that break the mold - though I personally believe this is due to the sheer amount of anime produced against cartoons per year.

I like the way TV works in Japan in that there are those definite end points, but at the same time, those end points screw certain shows over. A series will be produced and, in hopes of it being popular enough for a sequel, you'll run into a very inconclusive ending. I'm a fan of shows that have a definite end point in mind so as to not make the story feel like it's dragging or boring. It's really not a whole lot better than the American approach of "just air the damn show as long as ratings are good,". The best shows to me in how they tackle a story are things like the first Avatar and Young Justice. One starts out with a definite end point for the entire series while the other starts out with a plot that's going to play out over the course of a season.

either way, they're all made in Korea or the Philippines, so it's win-win

TRIFORCE89
May 24th, 2013, 02:49 AM
And that's even more personal preference =) You even said "I" can't stand.
That goes for you :P
That was my point XD

Objectively anime has much better animation ;)
That one I can say is not personal preference. That's just wrong. You can argue the visual style is better. But animation quality is absolutely not. The point of anime is that it is done efficiency with less frames of animation. Everyone moves like robots in comparison to western cartoons. That is not better

Freezer
May 24th, 2013, 03:32 AM
I forgot cartoons also include stuff like the Simpsons and South Park. All the more reason to prefer cartoons.

They're the same thing, why are we putting them against eachother again?
No they're not, as evident in this thread.
Anime of course, Better story, art and music. Cartoons are great when your a kid but otherwise anime wins hands down.
People actually think that?

Objectively anime has much better animation ;)
Go watch something like Samurai Jack or Avatar. The animations in those two feel much more alive than any anime I've watched for the reasons TRIFORCE89 mentioned.

BeefTaco
May 24th, 2013, 03:56 AM
I prefer Cartoons overall. I think my preferance has to do with the fact I choose the manga adaptations which are usually the original work instead the anime, for this reason I don't watch as much anime as I used to. I still prefer sports anime instead of sports manga tho.

derozio
May 24th, 2013, 05:21 AM
Everyone moves like robots in comparison to western cartoons. That is not better
Then you haven't seen enough eastern stuff, aka anime. It's okay to have personal preferences but I just dislike it when people downplay something without the evidence to back up statements just so they can make something, which in their opinion is better, appear far superior. There are plenty of anime which have really, really fluid animation. Note that I haven't said you're completely wrong. Because there are anime like that and it is entirely possible you might've come across those that have animation problems. But to generalize and say that the characters in all anime 'move like robots in comparison to western cartoons' is plain biased behavior on your part.

No they're not, as evident in this thread.
First off, the opinions of a few forum-goers can not be taken as evidence to back up a statement. Secondly, I'd like to know what your definition of cartoon and anime are. Because, as far as my opinion goes, they're both source of entertainment which go about depicting characters and their stories using the medium known as animation. Sure, their styles are different but they're, fundamentally, the same thing.

Go watch something like Samurai Jack or Avatar. The animations in those two feel much more alive than any anime I've watched for the reasons TRIFORCE89 mentioned.
I won't deny the fact that Samurai Jack had an awesome art style. I loved watching it as a kid (actually, the only reason I stopped watching was because it stopped airing. Will totally resume it if found online; thanks for reminding me! :p). But the next sentence is entirely subjective. The east definitely do not lack when it comes to artistic masterpieces.

All said and done, though, I love both (note that I'm categorizing them as separate beings since that's what the general consensus of this thread has been so far - they're different. Just trying to avoid confusion). It is true that I've stopped watching cartoons for the most part but I'd still get glued to my chair if they'd air Powerpuff Girls or Dexters Laboratory on TV. Even Samurai Jack (why did you stop airing it, you bastards?!?). But my favorite series of all time is an anime - One Piece. One thing of note is that One Piece's art style is reminiscent of the so-called "cartoons", btw.

P.S - Indian cartoons/animation suck. It sucks beyond anything I've ever seen. And I'm an Indian. Just saying since Dave mentioned us Indians 'doing our own thing'. In my opinion, although I can see they're putting some hard work in it, they just lack enough funds and skilled animators. Not to forget, the stories generally suck. They're definitely not in the league of japanese or american cartoons yet.

Freezer
May 24th, 2013, 05:47 AM
Then you haven't seen enough eastern stuff, aka anime. It's okay to have personal preferences but I just dislike it when people downplay something without the evidence to back up statements just so they can make something, which in their opinion is better, appear far superior. There are plenty of anime which have really, really fluid animation. Note that I haven't said you're completely wrong. Because there are anime like that and it is entirely possible you might've come across those that have animation problems. But to generalize and say that the characters in all anime 'move like robots in comparison to western cartoons' is plain biased behavior on your part.
He's not wrong. Anime has less frames in the animation and that is a big part of it. Also, I want you to name me an anime that is above 20 frames per second, because I have seen none. (Neither on TV nor online) Nothing is fluid if it's under 20fps, and that alone is reason enough to consider animations in cartoons better. Frame rate is a big deal for some. It's also a big reason why I personally prefer manga.

First off, the opinions of a few forum-goers can not be taken as evidence to back up a statement. Secondly, I'd like to know what your definition of cartoon and anime are. Because, as far as my opinion goes, they're both source of entertainment which go about depicting characters and their stories using the medium known as animation. Sure, their styles are different but they're, fundamentally, both the same thing.
The evidence is the fact that the user I quoted is the only user that claimed that they aren't and that it shouldn't be brought up because of that, whereas every other user posted their opinion and the matter and which one they prefer. The user I quoted may not care, but others do and they clearly find both different enough to discuss this. It goes without saying that they are essentially the same thing, but why is the hugely different style not reason enough to differentiate them?

It's an interesting topic. It's unfair to not differentiate them just because they're both the same kind of entertainment. If anything, discussing the differences of two similar things is more interesting, educational and better than something like the difference of ice cream and rice. Let's get some analogies going. Should we not discuss the differences between american video games and japanese video games or comic books and manga just because they're still video games/comics? What should we discuss then? The difference of video games and anime? What about german cars and japanese cars? There are people who much prefer a Volkswagen than a Nissan or Mitsubishi because they like the way german design cars better. Or how about Coke vs Pepsi? There are a lot of studies on that one, and some people can easily tell the difference on those two (including me) but they should stop because the two are still soda? Some people may not care, but others do.
I won't deny the fact that Samurai Jack had an awesome art style. I loved watching it as a kid (actually, the only reason I stopped watching was because it stopped airing. Will totally resume it if found online; thanks for reminding me! :p). But the next sentence is entirely subjective. The east definitely do not lack when it comes to artistic masterpieces.

Animation is not art style.

Mana
May 24th, 2013, 09:08 AM
I prefer anime, for the most part.

Although there are some good western cartoons, I find that they are mostly comedy based, episodal or crude. I prefer the story-telling aspect that is present, more often, in anime.

Not sure if it's just me, but are there any adult-based cartoons that aren't comedy (or dark comedy)? There are plenty of horror based anime, I feel like that is another big difference - the range of genres is much greater for eastern animations.

Of course it helps that there seems to be a lot more new anime being made than quality cartoons.

My favourite cartoons are probably the two Avatar series, or Young Justice.

Favourite animes however... well the list is much greater.

derozio
May 24th, 2013, 12:07 PM
@spino - On phone so I'll keep it short:
1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.

2) so you do agree that they're fundamentally similar? I never intended to have a debate on the merits/demerits of comparison between similar things so the second para is irrelevant. I merely replied because I didn't agree with the quoted statment of yours.

3) I effed up here, I admit. Thought you were talking about art style.

Weeaboo Name
May 24th, 2013, 12:22 PM
Cartoons often have more budget and before flash became the norm they looked fantastic. Doesn't mean much though, there is far more animation in an episode of Family Guy than there is in one of Gintama but I know which one I'm watching.

If anime studios were given Pixar budgets who knows what they could do. They might even stop with the mouth flaps.

matt0044
May 24th, 2013, 12:28 PM
Certain animes have good plots, but it seems like almost every one gets lost in cheap sexual tension and girls with ridiculously large bosoms. Even (or should I say, especially) in serious action animes. Not to mention the English dubs always have terrible voice actors.

That's quite a generalization even if there are are those that fit the bill.

Freezer
May 24th, 2013, 12:57 PM
@spino - On phone so I'll keep it short:
1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.

Like -Lapras- said, cartoons generally have more budget which is reason and should be proof why anime have less frames. Besides, maybe you're incapable of noticing it, which is common, but my eyes can distinguish the frame rate. I even made a thread about it in video games. I'm not gonna go out of my way to provide a source for this, but I actually thought this was known by most anyway. Though, I just did a quick google search out of curiosity and it says the average anime runs at 14 fps, whereas cartoons average 24 fps - 30 fps. No real source, but this is basing off the many answers I found from the search, and they're just in line with what I was expecting.

It's not a real problem anyway (to most, at least), but I find it enough to consider cartoon animation better. Everything else is subjective and personal preference, though.

derozio
May 24th, 2013, 01:04 PM
Good point, lappy. A still image scene that lasts for 2 minutes of gintama is infinitely better than watching some insanely well animated cartoon with crap story. Animation does help, yeah, but it means nothing if the plot ain't good.

@spino - ah, okay then. I guess I'll google it myself. Though I can understand your point if you're one of those people that can notice framerates. You're right, I personally never had a problem because I never noticed anything of the sort. :p

TRIFORCE89
May 24th, 2013, 03:21 PM
He's not wrong. Anime has less frames in the animation and that is a big part of it. Also, I want you to name me an anime that is above 20 frames per second, because I have seen none. (Neither on TV nor online) Nothing is fluid if it's under 20fps, and that alone is reason enough to consider animations in cartoons better. Frame rate is a big deal for some. It's also a big reason why I personally prefer manga.
Precisely. I like manga better too.


1) That's all well and good but you still haven't presented any piece of concrete evidence from a reliable source with regards to the average fps of cartoons vs anime. I can't take your or triforce's word for it unless you guys work in the animation industry....which I doubt. I personally never heard anything about there being more fps in western series when compared to their eastern counterparts before now, actually.
I do not work in the animation industry though, although that was my dream job back in high school. I've just been a life-long Disney nerd which leads to also reading about animation in general from time to time. I know some people here work in the industry though, and I'm really good irl friends with one of them so hopefully someone will chime in either way.

Anime generally does not have western budgets, unfortunately, and as a cost-saving measure the shows are made to be more efficient by drawing less. Less frames. Less fluid animation. They're not terrible, but not the best either.

matt0044
May 30th, 2013, 04:37 AM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LullDestruction This tends to show the differing mindsets between a lot of cartoons and Anime. Not in general though but it's worth noting, especially with dubs by 4kids.

Tetrakeet
May 30th, 2013, 08:06 AM
I've enjoyed BOTH cartoons and anime in my lifetime. Classic anime like Death Note, Bleach, and Full Metal Alchemist were just as entertaining for me as classic cartoons like Samurai Jack, Symbiotic Titan, or Ben 10 Omniverse.

How about the combined awesomness of cartoons AND anime? Teen Titans and Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra were both amazing in my opinion. ^^

Short answer: I like both.

matt0044
May 31st, 2013, 07:40 AM
Batman TAS, Cybersix and other cartoons were actually animated in Japan. The animation for them seemed to be better in terms of fluidity compared to Anime made then. Not that no Anime ever had good animation then but there was a quite a difference to be seen.

TRIFORCE89
May 31st, 2013, 09:03 PM
Batman TAS, Cybersix and other cartoons were actually animated in Japan. The animation for them seemed to be better in terms of fluidity compared to Anime made then. Not that no Anime ever had good animation then but there was a quite a difference to be seen.
That's true.

Didn't consider outsourcing. Early Simpsons did it too (but not Japan. Taiwan I think?) But wouldn't expect them to look animeish when they aren't anime

Patrick
June 5th, 2013, 08:02 AM
Western cartoons do have a higher frame rate than most eastern cartoons. That's not an opinion.

It's also a false statement to say that anime has objectively better animation, because animation itself defines a filmed (well, not anymore) sequence of images that creates an illusion of movement. It has nothing to do with the art direction, the drawings, the staging, the writing, or anything in post-production. All that stuff can enhance an animation, but unless the values at that point are haphazard, anything beyond literal animation itself is up to preference.

Technically, you can have a 12fps animation and it would be fine if it kept moving non stop. The human eye, however, may still pick up on some jerkiness, though. To some people, jerkiness is unacceptable. I, however, like limited animation. Or at least the stuff from like the 50's and 60's.

As an animator, or at least an old one, I don't like it when people throw around terms that they don't fully understand. :[ Not to say I have the best knowledge of things, either, I never had a chance to learn how they do things in the major studios like Disney, but with the way they've been behaving these days...

As for the topic itself, I don't really care either way, but I do skew towards high end western animation because it's always wonderful to see them animation principles in full effect. Beautiful stuff. I still give anime the edge for scenary, though, even in their made for TV stuff. I personally prefer to make my own animations with a lot of frames, though I think that's perfectionism at work (which I don't really like, TBH).

Now, if someone started a topic about puppet animation vs. frame by frame, then I'd start ranting. :P

PS: Lest we forget, anime was inspired by western animation first. Let's not forget my boy Osamu Tezuka. Further, you'd be surprised how many American (print) illustrators in the early 1900s, like 1910-30s drew things that have many of the exact same illustrative tropes as anime.

So much behind cartooning is older than you think.