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^^NICK^^ v.2.0
December 31st, 2003, 11:04 PM
What do you feel about gothic people, and the people always claiming to be non-conformists? I think it's kind of cool, as long as they don't like worship the devil, they're cool with me.

Catriona
January 1st, 2004, 01:40 AM
Well, the thing with trends like that is that...uh,they become trends. There are a ton of goths and that around where I live, they're not exactly unique.

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 09:00 AM
Here is my honest opinion:I think they are satanic and are just plain creepy.I would definetely stay a prep rather than be one of them.Most of them don't even believe in God, which is not compatible with me.They just scare me, and wear disturbing outfits

MoonLight
January 1st, 2004, 09:03 AM
Act not everyone is like that my friend for Example she dresses as a Goth (black cloth,black hair ect and she still belives in god and stuff sometimes it's just a faze ya go through that's all

latiosspud
January 1st, 2004, 09:08 AM
Here is my honest opinion:I think they are satanic and are just plain creepy.I would definetely stay a prep rather than be one of them.Most of them don't even believe in God, which is not compatible with me.They just scare me, and wear disturbing outfits
I don't believe in god but I don't wear "disturbing outfits." I don't really mind them as long as they don't bother me.

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 09:08 AM
Well, I understand that, I just get creeped out about the entire idea

PichuSecretBase
January 1st, 2004, 09:10 AM
Me no mind goths.... I find goths believe more in god then normal ppl. Black ish cool o.o

Timbjerr
January 1st, 2004, 09:30 AM
ehh...see, just cause I'm considered a prep, people automatically think I hate them. I have become friends with a couple of gothic people though...to me, it all depends on their personality and character

besides I knew a few goth girls that look good in black anyways ^^

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 10:51 AM
Tmbjr, I sort of have that problem

All of the goths at my school automatically hate me because I'm a big prep, yet they know next to nothing about me.Pretty stereotypical if you ask me

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 1st, 2004, 10:58 AM
Quotations by Goths:
"...being Goth, for me, is seeing beauty, and its coming destruction, at the same time. For me...It's the last dance as the walls are crumbling around you..." Beatgrrl

"[Goth] is the ability to find the art where art seems to be lacking; to find the light in the darkness and embrace it for all its worth..." Jennifer Mason



Why discuss the Goth culture on a religious web site?
In the aftermath of the student and staff murders at Columbine high school in Littleton CO in 1999-APR, some of the media searched for simple reasons to explain the terrible tragedy. Some reporters bypassed the obvious causes (two teens having easy access to handguns and rifles; sustained ridicule, harassment, and rejection by their peers; their lack of respect for human life; their lack of hope for the future; etc.). Some reporters mentioned that the alleged perpetrators followed the Goth culture. A few reporters have incorrectly associated Goth with Satanism, violence, white supremacy and intolerance. The implication was that the Goth culture had been the cause of the alleged perpetrators' obsession with revenge, and thus is at least partly responsible for the homicides. Some quotations:

"...morose subculture of Gothic fantasy."
"They're basically outcasts, Gothic people, They're into anarchy. They're white supremacists and they're into Nostradamus stuff and Doomsday."
"Black trench coats are a consistent theme in the Gothic subculture that has attracted many teenagers to the poetry, music and costumes of a scene that ranges from benign fantasy to violent reality."
"Inspired by fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons, Gothic has become a fascination of many American high schoolers, some of whom simply dress and paint their fingernails black while others immerse themselves in a pseudo medieval world of dark images."
"Tuesday was Hitler's birthday, an occasion for demonstrations, mock funerals and other macabre commemorations among both neo-Nazis and parts of the Gothic scene." 7

The perpetrators were apparently not Goths; rather, they had incorporated some Goth symbolism into their group's unique image. Similarly, they held hands in school; not because they were bisexual or homosexual, but in order to shock other students. Their goal was to disturb their fellow students and distance themselves from the school jocks who ridiculed and harassed them.



What is the Goth culture?
It is basically indefinable, because "Goth" means different things to each follower. Many adopt unusual fashions in order to separate themselves from other youth. Gordon A. Crews, associate dean of the School of Justice Studies at Roger Williams University in Bristol, CT is an investigator of what he calls the "occult" which-- in his opinion -- includes the Goth culture. He said: "It is up to the individual to define what Goth is for themselves ... The mentality is, 'I want to be left alone but I want to be seen. I want to see the shock on other peoples' faces." 16

Some factors that are commonly observed are:

Its unique music, art and literature.
The use of extreme black clothing, light colored makeup, unusual hair styles, body piercing, bondage items, etc.
A fascination with medieval, Victorian and Edwardian history.
Wearing of symbols such as a Christian cross; an Egyptian ankh or "Eye of Ra," or "Eye of Horus;" a Wiccan pentacle, a Satanic inverted pentacle. etc. 14
Goths tend to be non-violent, pacifistic, passive, and tolerant. Many in the media have mistakenly associated Goth with extreme violence and hatred of minorities, white supremacy, etc.
Many Goths write about being depressed. Followers seem sullen and withdrawn, when in public. They are often much more "happy and carefree in the company of [other] Goths." 1 Examples of depression are: Go Goth! writes: "Life is essentially meaningless, and suffering is the natural condition of living things. There is no hope." 11
"Tigriss," commenting on her own life, writes: "So my gothic persona fit me quite well. My black clothing and dark music aptly reflected my own depression, pain, and anger which was what I made most of my life about. Most of my goth friends had dysfunctional families and troubled childhoods as mine. We could identify with each other through our dark make-up and painful pasts." 12
Researcher Jasin Tamlin comments: "If you take a look at the 640 sites that are listed on the Gothic Web Ring, you will find many of them filled with desperation, depression, anger, hatred, despair and angst." 13

"A lot of people turn to the Gothic subculture after having a hard time in school, feeling alienated, and looking for a way to express themselves that mirrors those feelings. Others find the scene through literature, still others want to be shocking, and some people just find black clothing slimming." 1
Goth music often deals with thought-provoking topics, concentrating on societal evils, like racism, war, hatred of groups, etc. They tend to concentrate on the very "nasty, unhappy" topics that "North American culture" wants to "ignore and forget."
A fascination with death. They try "to find a different way of thinking about life, like trying to find beauty in life, pain and death. It's all a quest for immortality." 2
Some Goths enjoy playing role playing games. However, RPGs are not an integral component of Goth culture. It is just that those intellectual and creative challenges that draw them to the Goth scene make them more likely to enjoy RPGs as well.
Other interests: writings by authors like Dante, Byron, Tolstoy; German Expressionist silent films; writing music; painting, etc.


History and background:
The words Goth and Gothic have had many, largely unrelated meanings: the name of the Germanic Visigoth tribes that overthrew the Roman Empire. From this source arose the concept of a Goth as an uncivilized person, a barbarian. 4
a style of architecture in Western Europe which was popular from the 12th to the 16th century.
a style of horror/mystery literature that is dark, eerie and gloomy.

Goth, as a modern movement, started as one component of the punk rock scene. As the latter faded, Goth survived by creating its own subculture.
The first use of the term Goth in its present meaning was on a British Broadcasting Commission (BBC) TV program. Anthony H. Wilson, manager of Joy Division described the band as Gothic compared with the pop mainstream. The name stuck.
Their use of black clothing was originally "something of a backlash to the colorful disco music of the seventies." 5 It also stuck.
The movement first became established in the Batcave, a nightclub in London, England, in the early 1980's. 3
Spreading to the U.S., it first became popular in California.
Goth is featured in The Crow horror movies (1994, 1996). Other Gothic movies are the original Nosferatu, the color remake Nosferatu the Vampyre, and the Cabinet of Doctor Caligari.
Popular music bands are the Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Sisters of Mercy, Dead Can Dance, and many others.



Religion:
Many Goths reflect popular culture and are probably nominal or devout Christians. Atheism, Agnosticism, the New Age, Gnosticism, Shamanism, Wicca, other Neopagan traditions, and other minority faith groups are represented more frequently than in the general population.

Goths often wear Christian crosses or Christian crucifixes, which many regard as a pre-Christian religious symbol. Others wear New Age/ancient Egyptian Ankh symbols. Some do this as expression of their religious beliefs, some for satire, and others because they like their appearance.

Religion is frequently discussed on the Goth newsgroups. Many songs, band names and album titles have Christian themes. 6

The public incorrectly commonly associates Goths with Marilyn Manson. 10 "Manson publicly presents himself as a follower of the Church of Satan... He was ordained a priest in the Church of Satan by the [late] founder, Anton LaVey. Many fans refer to him as the Rev. Marilyn Manson." 9 (Actually, Manson is not a follower of that Church; he was simply appointed as a Reverend within the Church by its founder, Anton LaVey.) From this Satanic connection, the perception has grown that Goths are frequently linked to Satanism. There are a few Satanists who are also Goths, but they are rare.



Stereotypes:
People have accused or described Goths as being:

Depressed,
Unusually bigoted,
Violent,
Suicidal,
Involved in illegal drugs,
Vampires or believe themselves to be vampires,
Sado-masochists,
Satanists,
Musicians, painters, and other artists,
Computer programmers (although there seem to be a lot of them)
Wearers of black (some wear white and gunmetal),
Dyers of their hair,
Users of white makeup. 4

Some of the above probably apply to some Goths, but definitely not all.

Kayleigh
January 1st, 2004, 11:00 AM
I've never been associated with anyone like that, but so far they haven't been mean to me or anything. There are a couple around here that are actually quite friendly. Though, I would never want to be one. If someone likes black and dark make-up, and wants to wear it all of the time, that's fine with me. But what I don't like is if they don't believe in God, or worship the Devil. o_o; Like DT said, it's pretty creepy.

Keleri
January 1st, 2004, 11:10 AM
Eh, I don't mind them...one of my friends is a goth/punk, and she's really loopy, but okay. The only problem I have with groups like that is that they "conform to non-conformity"...that is, they worry about NOT looking like everyone else, paralleling the conformist ideal TO look like everyone else. I feel that it's much to trivial to worry about...you might as well not even think about it.

Miyu-chan
January 1st, 2004, 12:00 PM
I don't really care, everyone is allowed to have different belifs. n_n But if he/she worships the devil, it'll disturb me. =/ And I have this really stupid question...what's a prep? n_n;

Cherrim
January 1st, 2004, 12:47 PM
I've got nothing against goths. I think the style is really cool, actually. ^^; I don't think you should judge people based on their religion, so the religion thing doesn't really bother me. (Probably wouldn't even bug me if they were satan worshipers, but that's just me since I'd probably find that amusing in a way. o_o) I don't have any friends who are goths, but there is one in my religion class. x_X He gels his hair straight down so it always looks like it's greasy. >>;

A little story that no one will read, but whatever:
All the people in 8th grade last year went to Quebec for 5 days as a field trip. On our first night, we took a walking tour of the immediate area near our hotels and we passed all these goths who were standing around. Apparently some of them asked some of the girls for their jewellery. XD;

Too-Angel
January 1st, 2004, 01:27 PM
It's their choice what they wan't for they're life. Although what I think is
they're kind of scary, and they are very unorganized to themselves and what's around them and majority of them can wear the same thing over and over again. Which I really find very unorganized and I dislike that in fact that I dislike unorganized people. Gothic's are one of them in my list. One thing is,
there's possibly probably not much Gothics that do not worship the Demon. I think every Gothic worship the Devil, it's not the style they depend on. I think that if they're known as Gothic, it wouldn't say that's their style, that's they're religion and they represent it and show it that that's their religion and the way they're saying this to everybody is they are Gothic that possibly worships the Devil. Well, some say most Gothic's do not worship or anything, it's just another saying that's their other hand fun and in fact that's their style. To what I see, I see that it's not that, that's only an excuse for others not to think they worship anything to be close to others. Although, they're style and most Gothic's wear some faces that represent evil, makes most of them worship the evil. No one would wear anything like that if they don't worship anything as their religion.

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 02:07 PM
Too-angel, that made lots of sense.Bit long though XD

Zento
January 1st, 2004, 04:45 PM
I personally find gothic people very beautiful, not scary. I sort of find that slighlty offending. That's just me though...

People at my school say I'm gothic, but I dunno. If I am, I'm very different from the others. Sure, I wear black, chains, my ankh necklace, and I like some gothic music. I am into other things as well. And I don't go around hating certain types of people, I make fun of them, but I make fun of people who are like me as well.
If I am gothic though, I'm very different from the people who claim they are.

They all think they're tough and they're outspoken, while as I know I'm not very strong and I'm slightly shy. They wear stuff like the crosses and ankhs without knowing what they mean, but I wear them and I know what they are.

I guess it sorta depends on your personality. Most people nowadays people just dress gothic and punk because they think it looks cool, not for what it represents. They're making those unique styles all, well... Ununique. As silly as it sounds. That saddens me. Then again, I grew up with my sister who was a true blue punk. So I dunno... :/

Make of that what you can. I was never one to make long, intellegent posts....

Arwen
January 1st, 2004, 05:06 PM
They are scary... but try to ignore them... In my school, only .5 percentage wear gothics... but, they are creepy sometimes....


I only judge people by religion most of the time. Not by appearence, anyways. ^_^

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 05:10 PM
Same with me Arwen, I'm just like that.I.E., if you don't believe in God, then we probably won't talk much

Zento
January 1st, 2004, 05:20 PM
That's sorta close minded of you, DragonTrainer. There is plenty more stuff to talk about than God.

Like what if you had to do a project together, and you guys got to talking, and you really liked each others company? :3 That could happen, y'know? You can have friends that don't have the same beliefs as you.

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 05:28 PM
Well, you may think that, but that's just how I am.

See, the thing is, I can't be friends with Gothic people, all of them hate me automatically since I am a prep, and I guess I'm ok with that.Besides, they creep me out...

Zento
January 1st, 2004, 05:30 PM
:/ I suppose, but I don't think they all hate you... If they do, they're just as closed minded. Nobody's perfect.... Anyone who thinks they are, are crazy. :P

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 05:32 PM
Well, that's just how things are XD

Q Man
January 1st, 2004, 05:45 PM
I'm with Zento on that one (see a couple posts back). Just because somebody doesn't belive the same thing as you doesn't mean that you should dislike them... Me, personally, I don't follow religion. Its not because I don't belive in God or anything like that, I'm just too darn lazy, lol ^_^ I don't go out of my way to break the chains of conformity or anything. I just keep to myself, and I only have a few friends. There is nobody on this planet that knows everything about my personality, even my own family. My best friend that I have doesn't even know everything about me (but he knows far more than most... He's also the only friend IRL that knows even a little of just how much I like Pokmon, lol... After all, he's the reason that I started gaining a snowballing interest in it... long story ;) )... If I had black clothing, yeah, chances are I would wear it, but really I don't care what I wear. If I find something uncomfortable, etc., I won't wear it. And I don't care about wearing the same thing over and over again. If I like it, I'll wear it, else I won't.
meh.
Also, I don't care the slightest bit about anybody else's belifs, looks, or whatever. I like or dislike somebody only if they give me a reason to, not because of thier social status, religion, looks, whatever.

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 1st, 2004, 05:53 PM
and majority of them can wear the same thing over and over again

That is so true because the Gothic people at my school were those baggy black pants with all the chain things hanging from them almost everyday.

Kayleigh
January 1st, 2004, 06:34 PM
I'm wondering the same thing as Miyu... What is a prep?! x_X;

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 1st, 2004, 06:39 PM
I think a prep is someone who is like, into school spirit, and achieves a lot in school.

Greed
January 1st, 2004, 07:13 PM
What is a non-conformist? O_o;;

Y en ingles porfavor! Translation: In english words please @@;;

*dies of AIDS*

DragonTrainer
January 1st, 2004, 07:18 PM
Ok since I'm a prep, I guess I will answer it:

A prep is a person who is like, someone who is a high-achiever.They dress nicely, and don't do crazy things.We are firm believers in God, and we actually care about stuff.There's lots more to say too.

Lol, someone should make a prep thread

Arwen
January 1st, 2004, 08:19 PM
Okay, then... That would be fair then if it was created....

Dizzy
January 2nd, 2004, 06:23 PM
Tan House : Second Most Popular Group is Gothic People, But we dont call them Goths, We call them The Hardcores because theyve evolved from Alternatives or Punks into Goths or as we call them the Hardcores... There Cool we hve a couple of them in our big Group.. There free to express themselves as they wish and they make the best students.. So Dont put anyone "Gothic" down because they might be looking like trouble but there not. They are really COol.

DigiMaster12
January 3rd, 2004, 11:22 AM
Hello!!!This is ME Vlad!!!I am just a newbie.

DragonTrainer
January 3rd, 2004, 01:03 PM
Uh, I think that was a wrong place for the post DM12

Dizzy, no one was putting them down, we're just saying how we feel about them

Dizzy
January 3rd, 2004, 01:12 PM
That was a post from like five year's ago, thanks for the answer but I never wanted it. Just because I think that Expensive clothes are what most preps wear at my school, doesn't mean everyone has to look at me in a different way. If people think of me as a snob, then let them. It's there decision, not mines, and it's not like I really care anything. :-\ I can already see that this year is going to be bad aside from all the bad things that happened to me already on New Year's Eve and New Year's Day. I'm not trying to start a flame-war or anything, Just telling it how it is.

DragonTrainer
January 3rd, 2004, 01:18 PM
Uh, sorry for bothering you

Dizzy, I completely understand how you feel, I'm also a prep, and lots of people see me as a snob and such

Dizzy
January 3rd, 2004, 01:22 PM
People just like to stereotype people and It's really stupid. They don't want to get the know the person so they characterize them as snobs or something else.

Sorry for going so offtopic, we can continue with the regular discussion.

DragonTrainer
January 3rd, 2004, 01:24 PM
On the stereotyping thing, I completely agree

Almost all the people that aren't preps at my school hate me jiust because I'm a prep.They don't even know me, they just stereotype.Lol, this should go in the Preps thread

Dizzy
January 3rd, 2004, 01:29 PM
Lol, I have an Idea for a Thread... Yes It'll be about your feelings on the "status groups".

I think a prep is someone who is like, into school spirit, and achieves a lot in school.

Au Contrar, a Prep in my school is someone who dresses up in the preps clothes (See American Eagle, Aeropostle, Hollister, etc.), Who is somewhat in the popular field, and who can keep up with their friends. In the Preps Rules it says nothing about being into school spirit or achieves alot in school lol. LOL

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 5th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Maybe some people want to be called snobs...

DragonTrainer
January 5th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Nick, I may be mistaken, but judging from your post,you were inderectly insulting someone.Forgive me if I am mistaken though

John Denver
January 5th, 2004, 06:21 PM
I do not believe myself to be a non-conformist...and I think preps are just people that people make up because they are jealous of them and want to have what they have...yep

BOO ya!

DragonTrainer
January 5th, 2004, 06:27 PM
Yea, I sorta have to agree with you Dakota, a lot of people that make fun of preps and hate them are sorta jealous

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 6th, 2004, 12:02 PM
Nick, I may be mistaken, but judging from your post,you were inderectly insulting someone.Forgive me if I am mistaken though
No I was talking some people in general. I forgive you.

Look here's a site. It has to do with Preppy stuff. Might help this discussion:http://fashion.about.com/cs/teentrends/tp/preppy.htm

Here's another site:http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=preppy

Dizzy
January 6th, 2004, 12:50 PM
That's sorta close minded of you, DragonTrainer. There is plenty more stuff to talk about than God.

Like what if you had to do a project together, and you guys got to talking, and you really liked each others company? :3 That could happen, y'know? You can have friends that don't have the same beliefs as you.

Totally Zento, I dont Look Down on Gothic People and There are other things to talk about than God.... Just because someone thinks that Gothic People are Scary doesnt mean that you cant befreind them. **** I Have like a million Gothic Friends that are more Fun than some of my preppy friends but not because there gothic but because their them :) Gothic People are really Cool!

Well, you may think that, but that's just how I am.

See, the thing is, I can't be friends with Gothic people, all of them hate me automatically since I am a prep, and I guess I'm ok with that.Besides, they creep me out...

Not to be mean but that was a pretty Ignorant Statement right there. I know it might be different but at my school, I have lots of Gothic Friends and there really Cool. You might know this but Gothic people were more Pious than other people were because they built the Cathedral, They worshiped over hours.. so if your Christian and your really Religious you owe it to the Germanic Tribes the Goths because they helped increase religion. Goths Do not hate preps. They hate Snobs and people who are rude. So They cant hate you if they dont know you, Preppy and Gothic has nothing to do with hating anyways... and its not automatic. The Only reason they creep you out is because your stereotyping them.

DragonTrainer
January 6th, 2004, 02:43 PM
Well, where I live and the way I am, I guess I am being ignorant, I admit, but I am not the only one.Everyone is ignorant to something, so don't go ganging up on me about this.This is just the way I am, if you don't like it, then too bad.

Sorry for saying all this, but I have to let it out

Dizzy
January 6th, 2004, 02:46 PM
:-\ All I was trying to do was make a point and I made it, Don't feel the same way, Tough :).

DragonTrainer
January 6th, 2004, 02:49 PM
What are you talking about?I don't see your point.I know I am ignorant to some things, and so is everybody else, I'm just sick of everyone getting onto me all the time for what I say

latiosspud
January 6th, 2004, 02:51 PM
As long as he doesn't insult them in real life, he has the right to hate them.

DragonTrainer
January 6th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Thank you!Finally, somebody understands.By the way, I do not hate them, I just don't like the way they act and what they stand for.I only said this because I thought you people would understand and be mature about it.But apparently, you can't.This will probably be the last time I say stuff like this here, judging from what happened

Dizzy
January 6th, 2004, 03:01 PM
I didnt say he didnt have the right to hate them, I just said that he cant say that they hate him unless he knows.... But anyways, Sorry for going off topic.

DragonTrainer
January 6th, 2004, 03:06 PM
Actually, I don't hate them at all.I am just sick and tired of every single person calling me ignorant for what I say.I know I am ignorant, I don't need everyone telling me I am.Besides, I am ot the only person here who has shown their ignorance.Thank you for upsetting me in a way you can't imagine

Dizzy
January 6th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Well I Guess I'm, Sorry for seriously upsetting you, I guess i can say things sometimes But i never meant to upset anyone and its all my fault just like everything else in my life is... Okay DragonTrainer?

DragonTrainer
January 6th, 2004, 03:39 PM
no, don't feel bad Dizzy, this isn't you.It's just everyone else, saying I'mthe only ignorant one.Out of everyone else who said they didn't like goths,every other person called me ignorant and other stuff like that like a million times.I was just sick of everyone calling me ignorant.Yes I know I am ignorant, big deal, so is everyone else.No one is peerfect.Anyways, that's pretty much all I have to say about this

^^NICK^^ v.2.0
January 7th, 2004, 02:06 PM
Why do goths wear black I wonder.