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DS / StarCaliber
September 15th, 2003, 11:51 AM
The rules for this and any other discussion, as I, Kairi wrote them:

- I will not tolerate any more insults, even if they seems harmless. You can hurt people's feelings very easily.

- When you are debating, you respect every person, if you agree with them or not.

- If you feel need to correct someone, do it in a nice, polite, clean fashion. This means no cracks about their age, intelligence, or any other discriminatory factor. Period.

- No swearing. You may think kids won't be interested in this topic, but maybe they will be. This board was made for all ages, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can swear. This one stays clean. If you need to swear, completely censor it in the form of **** or $#@$

I will be keeping tabs on this and this topic be closed if any of the above rules are broken by anyone. Don't ruin it for everyone please.


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/international/11OPIN.html?pagewanted=1&fta=y

http://members.lycos.co.uk/starcaliber/0911opinionch.gif

Looking at that, I find it quite startling at the lack in favourable perceptions of the United States in countries which are significant world powers, and aren't necessarily those who many would consider a terrorist zone.

Why do you think so many people have unfavourable perceptions of the United States now? After 9/11, the US had the support of well over 95% of the world, yet now those days seem long distant. Whose fault is this, and what catalysts made people come to this conclusion? The apparent arrogance of the US President? Support of Israel? Ignorance of the United Nations? Unjustified military action? Killing more innocent people in Afghanistan/Iraq than those who died in 9/11? War for Oil? No WMD found? Alienting Patriotism? I'm not saying any of those are true; just giving you guys some ideas you can stir up and post about.

Certainly, after reading many political posts on this site, there are certainly quite a few people who believe that the US hasn't done anything which would make them target for attack or unfavourable opinions. Quite obviously that is not the case.

And for the record, if anyone posts in this topic who does not like the US (particularly it's foreign policies, of course) they are not terrorists, al-Qu'ida sympathisers or any other derogatory term. These are all opinions we may or may not share. If I can say one thing; It's not a case of being either "Good or Bad," much unlike the US President thinks of this issue.

Thoughts? Feel free to post your thoughts, pro-or-anti American. All the better for debating.

Arcanine
September 15th, 2003, 12:09 PM
Ok if some one starts a thread about Politics always gets flamed.
OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush. We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago. In war there will be ones that die, there will never be a war with out death. Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot. Well about the WMD what about the moble cem labs. Bush went to the UN for 6 months, thay said no, now thay want a part of it, so thay can get the oil for them self. Im 100% pro-America.

Kairi
September 15th, 2003, 12:11 PM
I'll be monitoring this heavily, it's not a bad topic it's just some people here can't handle it.

Other than that I have nothing to add.

Shining Arcanine
September 15th, 2003, 01:28 PM
Governments are created to provide a country's citizens with security and order. If the possibility of future attacks on the United States of America exists, it must be exterminated before it becomes a major threat. We do not need millions to die before we act as Europe did in the World Wars.

Quite frankly, as long as Bush is doing his job as president, I do not care what people think of him. Thank goodness he is not Clinton. Then again, he is not Regan either but at least he has a good heart and does what is best for the future security and stability of the United States of America. I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

Tsukushi-chan
September 15th, 2003, 03:04 PM
I normally stay out of political topics, so I'll just post my opinion then leave....

Anyways... I'm just scraping from facts I already know since I hardly a clue on what's going on...

I'm sort of not surprised.... America just seems to be too 'boastful' in my opinion (as if teh statement makes sense either)...

I'm not all that thrilled about teh whole war thing. >_< I had a feeling we were gonna go to war when Bush was elected. I'm not a very big Bush fan as you can probally tell. Maybe it was teh way I was raised, I dunno...

I guess one does need to stand up for their country when an important building is destroyed and lives are lost. But couldn't they be more civil? Like talk things out? Or maybe I'm just too peace loving?

I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

I sort of disagree on that.... I don't believe any one is truly 'evil' as you say, they just make teh wrong choices sometimes (or all of teh time.).
Or maybe everyone is abit evil? I mean, we all do have a dark side... Even teh most innocent of children do... Does that mean all of humanity is doomed?

I'm sorry if I got a bit off topic, and that nothing more likely than not didn't make any sense... I told you I wasn't good with politics... It's just my opinion.

*scurries off*

DragonTrainer
September 15th, 2003, 04:56 PM
The only thing I fear about the war is diseases or nuclear weapons.

Shining Arcanine
September 15th, 2003, 05:26 PM
I normally stay out of political topics, so I'll just post my opinion then leave....

Anyways... I'm just scraping from facts I already know since I hardly a clue on what's going on...

Then you shouldn't take a side until you are well educated on the subject.

Frostweaver
September 15th, 2003, 10:32 PM
it's still rather hard to believe one fact... if someone can clearly explain this to me, then i'll shut up and wear a banner saying "i love bush"

Saddam's government is supported by the US (approx) 12 years ago... US supplied iraq with weapons and stuff. So why did the US support Saddam in the first place if he's such a monster? So are they basically saying... "it took us 12 years to realize that Saddam is actually evil" They pushed Saddam up there, and now they're the one who pulled Saddam down from up there... huh?

EDIT NOTE: i briefly checked over Saddam's political beliefs... it never changed for 12 years... so whatever he believed in 12 years ago, it's the same as now. So don't say "well perhaps Saddam's beliefs changed over the years". When i skimmed over the page, saddam's beliefs didn't change over the 12 years.

Gr8Person62
September 15th, 2003, 11:27 PM
Well, what do you know, It's me, in this thread. Don't worry, I won't snap at anyone this time.. I hope!
Just a little question first..
Topic: [Politics]Does This Surprise You?
Is the "Does this surprise you" part supposed to mean that we shouldn't be surprised that a political subject was started by StarCalibur? Or the statistics in that graph...?

I am saddened that people are dying in Iraq but as long as evil exists in our world, people will die.

Evil. Does it really exist? No. Unless you have a different defiintion of evil, theres no such thing as Evil in our world. Most people classify "Bad" people as evil. Now put yourself in their position. This is an important lesson in life. People may seem evil, but from their point of view, what their doing is good. Take Hitler for example. Titled as "The most evil person ever lived". He had a horrible childhood. His country was devided into 2 groups. The Rich and the Poor. As I child, he was taught that the problem for the poverty in his country(Germany), was the Jewish people. They came to their county, took their jobs, their homes, their money, and their government. He gained some political power as he grew older, gaining the support of many Germans. Once he had the power, he "Eliminated" all the Jews he could, to "Solve the problem". Now to him, he was fixing a problem... To the rest of the world, it was pure, selfish "Evil".. although this scenario could be argued... Because in the later years of his life, he took advantage of the power he had. Killed his wifes, innocent people 'n all..

Ok..About the Unpopularity of America. I belive there is no 100% reson for this. In polls, people take their own oppinions. Whether it's from the war, or terrible Governing or anything else, they coud only vote for the negaive side towards America.

Personnaly, I think U.S.A is a great country.. Nearly everything about it is good. It's just the government I hate. I hate! Thats the same with so many other countries and it's people. The American Government isn't their favourite amongst others.

Another thing, the majority of Iraq was glad about the war to eliminate Sadam. The reason some Iraqies supported Iraq, was because he led the nation to good(Although, not it's peole). Saddam was powerful, he made good decisions in leading his country. Although he took advantage of his power(Just like Hitler), and he wasn't so great with his people. He killed them just for having an oppinion that he didn't like. Thats why it was good for Iraq to eliminate him.
Iraq was accused for having Weapons of Mass Destruction, proven wrong later on, and the U.S.A appologising, Iraq shouldn't fear Americans. There actually on their good side, belive it or not(Despite the Oil Part).
No evidence of Saddam's elimination yet. Plenty believe he's still alive.

I think that's all I'l say for now. I'l wait for something to debate about later :)

22sa
September 16th, 2003, 05:43 PM
Evil. Does it really exist? No. Unless you have a different defiintion of evil, theres no such thing as Evil in our world. Most people classify "Bad" people as evil. Now put yourself in their position. This is an important lesson in life. People may seem evil, but from their point of view, what their doing is good. Take Hitler for example. Titled as "The most evil person ever lived". He had a horrible childhood. His country was devided into 2 groups. The Rich and the Poor. As I child, he was taught that the problem for the poverty in his country(Germany), was the Jewish people. They came to their county, took their jobs, their homes, their money, and their government. He gained some political power as he grew older, gaining the support of many Germans. Once he had the power, he "Eliminated" all the Jews he could, to "Solve the problem". Now to him, he was fixing a problem... To the rest of the world, it was pure, selfish "Evil".. although this scenario could be argued... Because in the later years of his life, he took advantage of the power he had. Killed his wifes, innocent people 'n all..
Here's evil from dictionary.com

evil ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. eviler, evilest
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

I sort of know what you mean, that people committed crimes because they didn't know better, right? Or were you trying to point out that "no one ever plans for this world to be a nightmare?" That doesn't mean there's no such thing as evil. As long as there is the standards (laws), people can be judged based on them whether they are right or wrong.

DragonTrainer
September 16th, 2003, 05:55 PM
There will always be something wrong with the world.I believe that you can never have a perfect world.

Gr8Person62
September 16th, 2003, 11:06 PM
Here's evil from dictionary.com

evil ( P ) Pronunciation Key (vl)
adj. eviler, evilest
Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

n.
The quality of being morally bad or wrong; wickedness.
That which causes harm, misfortune, or destruction: a leader's power to do both good and evil.
An evil force, power, or personification.
Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction: the social evils of poverty and injustice.

I sort of know what you mean, that people committed crimes because they didn't know better, right? Or were you trying to point out that "no one ever plans for this world to be a nightmare?" That doesn't mean there's no such thing as evil. As long as there is the standards (laws), people can be judged based on them whether they are right or wrong.

No, it's not that. I said, from their point of view, no matter how bad what they're doing may seem, to them, what they're doing is good. You don't just go around killing people for no reason (Unless you have brain damadge), everyone has an excuse. Most of the time revenge.

Frostweaver
September 17th, 2003, 12:15 AM
definition of an evil person in terms of the world's beliefs:

an evil person: someone who has the opposite beliefs of you

but as a christian myself of course i'm against that... let's go back to Hitler for example. He suffered greatly during his childhood, how the Jewish took the jobs and money to make the germans suffer. But does this mean we just revenge for whatever someone else has done to us that's mean?

So someone thrashed you at school today, you kill them in return to "solve the problem". If they are dead, they can't thrash you anymore! Now isn't that such a good way to "solve the problem..."

DS / StarCaliber
September 17th, 2003, 08:42 AM
Ok if some one starts a thread about Politics always gets flamed.
OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush. We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago. In war there will be ones that die, there will never be a war with out death. Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot. Well about the WMD what about the moble cem labs. Bush went to the UN for 6 months, thay said no, now thay want a part of it, so thay can get the oil for them self. Im 100% pro-America.


Haha, how old are you? As Shining Arcanine was mentioning, I think people like you need to educate yourself a little.

Mobile Chem Labs are WMD? rofl, good joke.

Arcanine
September 17th, 2003, 08:55 AM
Haha, how old are you? As Shining Arcanine was mentioning, I think people like you need to educate yourself a little.

Mobile Chem Labs are WMD? rofl, good joke.
I haven't said this in a long time on PC but shut up DS / StarCaliber.
Like I said the war is not over thay can not be looking for WMD and fight a war at the same time. And does any one know how big Iraq is? It is as big as California, and thay can be under ground in schools anywhere. And mabe you should educate yourself a little before talking about the war over there.

Kairi
September 17th, 2003, 09:08 AM
Watch it you two, respect one another.

If you don't think Arcanine has enough experience, just say something to the effect of "Well, I think there's more to it. You may need to study some more on this topic".

It's nice, it's polite, it gets the point across. No seemingly harmless cracks about age or whatever.


Arcanine, be polite. Even if he was rude, don't tell him to shut up. Politely ask him to be more respectful, if you push him he may just push back.

DS / StarCaliber
September 17th, 2003, 09:29 AM
OK the The New York Times dont like Bush so there polls are are not going to be for Bush

When I used to argue with Shining Arcanine about 9/10 months ago, he always insisted that the New York Times was a very good, unbiased source of information. I would claim it was biased towards the United States, simply because it is an American publication. However, what me and Shining Arcanine do agree on is that the NYTimes is not biased against President Bush.

Besides, why is it biased anyway? Because it has published an article in which criticism of the President could be found? How often do you read the New York Times? Enough to know it's biased? And since you can't read, the poll displayed there was compiled by the PEW Global Attitudes Project; not the NY Times.

We didnt go over there for oil, if we wanted the oil we would have got it 12 years ago.

I agree with you.

Iraq is lucky we didnt turn then into a parking lot.

Okay, so maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, so you can help me out. Why should Iraq be, "lucky that we didn't turn them into a parking lot?" Iraq itself is not really a hostile country; it just had a hostile regime. There are millions of innocent people in there that would never want any harm done to the US at all, and just want a peaceful, sufficient living. So why did you mention the, "parking lot" theory? Why should perfectly innocent people be, "lucky" that a outside force didn't flatten their country? Because you think it would be a simple-minded, barbarically appropriate course of action? And why would it need to be turned into a parking lot anyway? Not to mention what right the Coalition would have.

Like I said the war is not over thay can not be looking for WMD and fight a war at the same time. And does any one know how big Iraq is? It is as big as California, and thay can be under ground in schools anywhere.

Erm, yes they can be looking for them at the same time, and since you've not checked the news recently, I can confirm to you that this search has been going on for quite some time. It's not like the entire Coaliton force is minuscule and inadequately equiped to do the job. I just find it quite funny how US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, went the United Nations with "evidence" that Iraq had and was concealing WMD from the rest of the world. Part of the package he presented to the United Nations was satellite images of weapons (and proposed WMD) being transported, hidden and under construction. If you don't believe me, you can read widely available transcripts and view these images on the internet; specifically www.whitehouse.gov.

I guess the United Nations Weapons Inspections Team didn't have the time to find any WMD either, eh?

Arcanine
September 17th, 2003, 09:41 AM
Well im not going to reply to any of that, if I did then there will be a flame war and everything. And dont you dare say something like: you wont reply because you dont know what you are talking about.

DS / StarCaliber
September 17th, 2003, 09:50 AM
Well im not going to reply to any of that, if I did then there will be a flame war and everything. And dont you dare say something like: you wont reply because you dont know what you are talking about.

Hahaha. Okay, so debating = flaming by your logic. Like I believe that.

Let me tell you something, right. Quite a few months ago, me and Shining Arcanine (someone who I can argue with because he knows what he's talking about) would debate politics for hours. He finally convinced me I should be accepting of military action on the grounds that we both agreed Saddam was an evil guy, and there was seemingly enough evidence for the case of WMD being found there.

And why have I turned? Because I feel like I've been lied to. Bush, Blair and their cronies had my trust and they lied; thus blowing it. Why should I believe them again? They had all this "evidence" of WMD, so where are they, 140 days on?

There is a high-profile legal case going on in the UK right now named, "The Hutton Inquiry" between the BBC and the Government. The trail has revealed eMails and other such information which encouraged those who were constructing a dossier which was for the use of persuading the British people for the need for war to "sex-up" the information. As a result, the Government exaggerated the risk of terrorism and WMD; and the result is clear to see. If Iraq was so dangerous, why the need to exaggerate?

They ******** me, and I return the favour.

Kairi
September 17th, 2003, 10:25 AM
DS/Star Caliber, don't swear. I don't care the reason, just don't do it. If feel 100% you need to, fully censor it.

It's a shame this thread got locked, I wasn't the one who locked it.

You need to learn to respect each other, and REPLY not RETALIATE with courteous responses.

You're still pushing each other and countering, you can't do that in debates. Is it really so hard to resist changing a few words so your comments come out nice and not as insults? DS/ StarCaliber, let's take your "Hahaha. Okay, so debating = flaming by your logic. Like I believe that."

Could you not have said:

"I don't believe debating is flaming."?

You should know that if you don't show some maturity, you're going to hurt someone or offend them. I knew this topic could have gone downhill, but it went downhill way too fast. Much more of this and I'll ban political discussion on Other Chat.

Although he was making remarks, I don't feel this warranted closing this topic so soon. His swear could and is being edited out, and with some redirection it could have survived. You closed it however, and if I open it you have the higher authority and could lock it up again.

Arcanine
September 17th, 2003, 10:28 AM
You can open it again Kairi if you think its right to re-open it (if you open it then I will not close it again). Oh just to let every one know I was the one that closed it.

Kairi
September 17th, 2003, 12:29 PM
I'm going to open this again, but,


Let me make it very clear;

- I will not tolerate any more insults, even if they seems harmless. You can hurt people's feelings very easily.

- When you are debating, you respect every person, if you agree with them or not.

- If you feel need to correct someone, do it in a nice, polite, clean fashion. This means no cracks about their age, intelligence, or any other discriminatory factor. Period.

- No swearing. You may think kids won't be interested in this topic, but maybe they will be. This board was made for all ages, there are plenty of other boards out there where you can swear. This one stays clean. If you need to swear, completely censor it in the form of **** or $#@$

I will be keeping tabs on this and this topic be closed if any of the above rules are broken by anyone. Don't ruin it for everyone please.

John Denver
September 17th, 2003, 12:34 PM
Any civilized person wouldn't feel the need to swear in a regular debate, no matter hot heated or mad they get...but of course, everyone has outbreaks sometimes...

and I agree with Kairi in keeping this thread open...

!@#$ ya!

DS / StarCaliber
September 17th, 2003, 01:10 PM
Thanks Kairi, and I publically apologise for the inappropriate behaviour. It won't happen again. Also, LOL Dakota.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030917/ts_nm/iraq_weapons_blix_dc_1

Oh dear...

22sa
September 17th, 2003, 04:25 PM
No, it's not that. I said, from their point of view, no matter how bad what they're doing may seem, to them, what they're doing is good. You don't just go around killing people for no reason (Unless you have brain damadge), everyone has an excuse. Most of the time revenge.
And you are saying they are doing good for....... who?:P

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 04:30 PM
I don't really think they dstroyed all of their WMD.If they did, then don't you think that they have possibly made more by now?

Frostweaver
September 17th, 2003, 04:33 PM
if Iraq don't have any WMD to start with... then they don't have to "remove" all those large quantity of WMD. I mean it can't be that easy to hide so much WMD (if the US statistics is true which i do no believe in)

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 04:37 PM
If they do have WMD, they could have transferred them to a different location or hid them underground.

Frostweaver
September 17th, 2003, 04:49 PM
If they do have WMD, they could have transferred them to a different location or hid them underground.

it's rather hard to transport them around unnoticed... US got all those big satellites up there... try stargazing at night, and you'll see one of those critters in the sky once every 2 minute?

now North Korea is saying "we MAY make WMD"... well they're dooming themselves certainly as China already moved to North Korea border, and we know that US will come in and lend a help when no one asked for help. With time we'll see what N.Korea will become...

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Looks like Korea will pose a threat to us in a while.Man, I hope we don't have a war.

22sa
September 17th, 2003, 04:54 PM
it's rather hard to transport them around unnoticed... US got all those big satellites up there... try stargazing at night, and you'll see one of those critters in the sky once every 2 minute?

now North Korea is saying "we MAY make WMD"... well they're dooming themselves certainly as China already moved to North Korea border, and we know that US will come in and lend a help when no one asked for help. With time we'll see what N.Korea will become...
Woah, China's ready to defend N. Korea? Interesting. I need to go read about N. Korea news again. >_>

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 04:58 PM
Looks like everyone is joining in on this war.China is a powrful country, so we'd better look out.This may be dumb to ask, but who are with the U.S.?I seem to have forgot.

22sa
September 17th, 2003, 05:00 PM
Looks like everyone is joining in on this war.China is a powrful country, so we'd better look out.This may be dumb to ask, but who are with the U.S.?I seem to have forgot.
Well if it's going to be war, South Korea and Japan will be America's allies.

Frostweaver
September 17th, 2003, 05:29 PM
China is not siding with North Korea... it just moved to the edge of North Korea-China border... which side china is taking on is rather a mystery. But i suspect that China is against WMD and will join the US if there's solid prove. Otherwise it'll just sit there to open fire at whoever started the war for no reason first.

*note: all words after the word "i suspect" is the personal comment of Frostweaver, not the truth. The truth is still a mystery*

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 05:35 PM
I think it would be dumb to side with people who are capable of causing major war and destruction.

Frostweaver
September 17th, 2003, 05:36 PM
I think it would be dumb to side with people who are capable of causing major war and destruction.

Both US and North Korea have the capability to start major wars and destruction... so isn't that a self contradiction?

DragonTrainer
September 17th, 2003, 05:40 PM
Looks like my own words put me down.But I think U.S. is the good guys no matter what anyone says.

DS / StarCaliber
September 17th, 2003, 09:38 PM
Well if it's going to be war, South Korea and Japan will be America's allies.

Yes, both countries with a lacklustre military force.

I doubt Britain will help; the public just wouldn't accept it. Political suicide.

Gr8Person62
September 18th, 2003, 01:55 AM
Hahaha. Okay, so debating = flaming by your logic. Like I believe that.

Let me tell you something, right. Quite a few months ago, me and Shining Arcanine (someone who I can argue with because he knows what he's talking about) would debate politics for hours. He finally convinced me I should be accepting of military action on the grounds that we both agreed Saddam was an evil guy, and there was seemingly enough evidence for the case of WMD being found there.

And why have I turned? Because I feel like I've been lied to. Bush, Blair and their cronies had my trust and they lied; thus blowing it. Why should I believe them again? They had all this "evidence" of WMD, so where are they, 140 days on?

There is a high-profile legal case going on in the UK right now named, "The Hutton Inquiry" between the BBC and the Government. The trail has revealed eMails and other such information which encouraged those who were constructing a dossier which was for the use of persuading the British people for the need for war to "sex-up" the information. As a result, the Government exaggerated the risk of terrorism and WMD; and the result is clear to see. If Iraq was so dangerous, why the need to exaggerate?

They ******** me, and I return the favour.

And Allelulia to that! Finally, someone educated enough to know the proper truth, not just what America wanted them to know. I'v been sick of all this stuff that people say, and think they're right. I'v had to live with it for 2 years now. If only everyone in the world saw things the way SC did.
Now i'm from the middle east, so believe me, I know it all. Not so much the political side, but more whats been exaggrrated, and what excuses have been made up. After the US pulled their forces from Iraq, they claimed that they found no WMD, and appologised for it. Before they went to attack, they where almost certain they had WMD. Explain that..
Most people I know would say America just wanted oil. This probably isn't all that true, but the thing is, within the war, just when they "thought" they had killed Sadam, they went to fetch themselves some oil. Now you probably where never told about this, but it actually happened. It was broadcasted on Arabic TV. With footage of it happening, so theres some proof. It's disgusting though! Couldn't have they at least waited untill they claimed the war was over?

Hmm, theres a lot to say, but most of it will probably be useless to you.

DS / StarCaliber
September 18th, 2003, 06:00 AM
Looks like my own words put me down.But I think U.S. is the good guys no matter what anyone says.

Funny, I can't think of many other countries that have killed more innocent people in foreign conflicts than the United States.

Go the good guys! -_-;

Arcanine
September 18th, 2003, 12:41 PM
And Allelulia to that! Finally, someone educated enough to know the proper truth, not just what America wanted them to know. I'v been sick of all this stuff that people say, and think they're right. I'v had to live with it for 2 years now. If only everyone in the world saw things the way SC did.
over?Why are you so dead set to think your right and every one that dont go a long with you is wrong. Always saying you only know one side. And saying if I dont go a long with you then im not educated enough to know the proper truth. You think your right on everything you say.

22sa
September 18th, 2003, 01:07 PM
Why are you so dead set to think your right and every one that dont go a long with you is wrong. Always saying you only know one side. And saying if I dont go a long with you then im not educated enough to know the proper truth. You think your right on everything you say.
That's true, I went on like that in an WWII thread at PIO 2 month ago and the others participating got mad:knockedou:laugh::P

Frostweaver
September 18th, 2003, 01:36 PM
And Allelulia to that! Finally, someone educated enough to know the proper truth, not just what America wanted them to know. I'v been sick of all this stuff that people say, and think they're right. I'v had to live with it for 2 years now. If only everyone in the world saw things the way SC did.
Now i'm from the middle east, so believe me, I know it all. Not so much the political side, but more whats been exaggrrated, and what excuses have been made up. After the US pulled their forces from Iraq, they claimed that they found no WMD, and appologised for it. Before they went to attack, they where almost certain they had WMD. Explain that..
Most people I know would say America just wanted oil. This probably isn't all that true, but the thing is, within the war, just when they "thought" they had killed Sadam, they went to fetch themselves some oil. Now you probably where never told about this, but it actually happened. It was broadcasted on Arabic TV. With footage of it happening, so theres some proof. It's disgusting though! Couldn't have they at least waited untill they claimed the war was over?

Hmm, theres a lot to say, but most of it will probably be useless to you.


now don't become Bush yourself... "You either go my way or the highway" (bush quote) and the other one of "i am right" thinking from bush is "you are either siding with us or the terrorist"... bush is trying to force countries to take a side or something? there's a grey area in everything you know...

now i also believed that Bush lied to us about WMD. But we can always put our heated emotions (hatred) towards Bush into nicer words. Just because Bush did all these "terrible stuff" to you, that doesn't mean you have to lose your temper... calm down first, then post again. This is how all those flame war begins in political threads. Let's not let this topic be closed down again for the 2nd time. Kairi is nice enough to reopen it before...

DragonTrainer
September 18th, 2003, 05:46 PM
Well, they may have killed other people, but they are the ones who bombed us and have made many terrorist attacks.We are just trying to make the world safer.

John Denver
September 18th, 2003, 05:49 PM
Well, they may have killed other people, but they are the ones who bombed us and have made many terrorist attacks.We are just trying to make the world safer.

I'm pretty sure they were planes...

Frostweaver
September 18th, 2003, 05:58 PM
Terrorists need to be arrested (not destroyed... they're still human in the end) and that's facts. But what tells us that the Iraqis are the terrorist, or are related to terrorists? There's solid proof that Al-Qaeda is responsible for the attack of 9/11, and so it's right for President Bush to disband Al-Qaeda. But after 140 days of searching for WMD in Iraq, where are they? So if it ends up that it is proven Iraq doens't have any relationship with terrorists and doesn't have any WMD, then didn't US just slaughtered tons of innocents?

I believed that Bush could have done alternatives against Iraq, like stop all trades with Iraq to just put Iraq into economic deadlock. War should be a last resort, and shouldn't be used unless there's solid proof.

John Denver
September 18th, 2003, 06:31 PM
Terrorists need to be arrested (not destroyed... they're still human in the end) and that's facts. But what tells us that the Iraqis are the terrorist, or are related to terrorists? There's solid proof that Al-Qaeda is responsible for the attack of 9/11, and so it's right for President Bush to disband Al-Qaeda. But after 140 days of searching for WMD in Iraq, where are they? So if it ends up that it is proven Iraq doens't have any relationship with terrorists and doesn't have any WMD, then didn't US just slaughtered tons of innocents?

I believed that Bush could have done alternatives against Iraq, like stop all trades with Iraq to just put Iraq into economic deadlock. War should be a last resort, and shouldn't be used unless there's solid proof.

It's a war...and in all wars...there are collateral damage...and some of those "Innocent People" broke some rules of war and killed our men to, and some of britains..or englands or whoever the people with the big red cross in their flag is...man I'm an idiot :laugh:

BOO ya!

Gr8Person62
September 18th, 2003, 10:39 PM
now don't become Bush yourself... "You either go my way or the highway" (bush quote) and the other one of "i am right" thinking from bush is "you are either siding with us or the terrorist"... bush is trying to force countries to take a side or something? there's a grey area in everything you know...

now i also believed that Bush lied to us about WMD. But we can always put our heated emotions (hatred) towards Bush into nicer words. Just because Bush did all these "terrible stuff" to you, that doesn't mean you have to lose your temper... calm down first, then post again. This is how all those flame war begins in political threads. Let's not let this topic be closed down again for the 2nd time. Kairi is nice enough to reopen it before...

First thing, I'd never, ever become a Bush myself. Only one thing I'm wondering, where exactly was it in my post that I was "Mad" and "Hated" Bush? I don't see that. Especially the word "Bush", not once was it typed.


Arcanine, I don't have to reply to you, but I want to, so I will. Please don't take me wrong, I didn't direct that towards you. You seem to think everything isa imed at you, but certainly in this case it isn't. I only quoted that SC's post was true. Not about the part where he said stuff about you, but the WMD part.
Now yes, I have my oppinions, but sometimes what you say is completly out of context. Most of what you say too, is just based on what you've been told.

If there is anyone out there, who can bring me 100% proof of WMD, and 100% innosence to America, then sure, I'l believe whatever you say.

The only reason I'm dead set I'm right about what I say, is becuase it is true. If something isn't true, then I won't say it, unless I state it's my personal oppinion. I know that what some things people say against my beliefs may be true, but hey, I'm not sticking up for the terrorists, I'm sticking up for the innocent who have been "tagged" as the terrorist whithin this war. I know there are terrorists out there, I know Americans died, the only thing is, that your the one who fails to see that America is also the terrorist, and is also killing innocent poeple, and you just make it sound like there all so good and righteous.
In rebuttle to this, I'm assuming that your going to say "But Al-Quida attacked us first". I told you previously, America where the ones responsible for the devestation of many Arab nations.
This may seem like flaming to you, but It's not. I just replyed, and said what I believe to defend myself from your accusation. If you think I'm angry at you, and wrote this whith anger or whater, I didn't. You probably hate me now Arcanine, but I don't.


Funny, I can't think of many other countries that have killed more innocent people in foreign conflicts than the United States.

Go the good guys! -_-;

There arn't any good guys in this War. Theres the terrorist, and the innocent. In a war, someone innocent will always die. And killing people for revenge doesn't make you any more innocent to whom your getting revenge on.

Personaly, I hate Al-Quida. Please don't think I support them... :)

22sa
September 19th, 2003, 05:52 AM
LOL why is hate so common to you? -.-;;; Arcanine was as right as you were, he shouldn't have anything to lose.

DS / StarCaliber
September 19th, 2003, 07:42 AM
Arcanine, the reason there are people getting the mentality that you're wrong is that you've presented such a case which lacks the incorporation of raw facts, evidence and simple truths. America post-9/11 is basically an angry, awoken giant which wishes to freely point its finger and impose its values on anywhere it chooses, and it won't go down that way. I can't believe how much, only two-years-on from 9/11, worldwide public support for the US has dropped like a stone. The way I see it is that you can't see any further than "America = good; Anti-America = bad" and this part of the swimming pool is far too deep for you, hence you not continuing this topic with me. How am I supposed to believe that you're "right" when you go around locking my topic and backing down after my first reply to you?

Shining Arcanine mentioned the President's duty is to put his country first before others. So you think that by angering people into hatred of the United States, ignoring international organisations and making false allegations against countries, you're going to solve the world's problems? How exactly is that going to help win a war on terrorism, when in most developed (and plenty of undeveloped) countries less than half have a favourable view of the United States? I'd really love to know.

The only way I can see support for the US rising again is if they get someone like Wesley Clark or Hillary Clinton into office, and dispose of some of the lying, scandalous hooligans currently occupying the White House.

Arcanine
September 19th, 2003, 08:34 AM
Well im staying out of threads about politics, and im going to tell you to SHUT UP again saying "this part of the swimming pool is far too deep for you", your saying I dont know what im talking about, well mabe you dont know what your talking about StarCaliber.

Kairi
September 19th, 2003, 08:38 AM
Arcanine, I told everyone not insult anyone even if they say something you don't like about you. Telling him to shut up won't get us anywhere, and I may begin regretting opening this again.

We'd get a lot further if we could express things in a kind manner, crude insults only breed more crude insults.

Debates can get heated, but I've warned everyone to stay away from personal insults. This will be closed if any more of this goes on, and I won't open it again.

Maybe you found his comment inappropriate, but you could just say "I don't think that comment was appropriate" or whatever.

StarCaliber, you have to realize that people will take almost anything angled at them as an insult. You should have tried to reveal your view to him more, and ask why he feels the way he does. Respect his 100% American view, and hopefully he'll respect your view.

John Denver
September 19th, 2003, 01:05 PM
Well im staying out of threads about politics, and im going to tell you to SHUT UP again saying "this part of the swimming pool is far too deep for you", your saying I dont know what im talking about, well mabe you dont know what your talking about StarCaliber.


That's just his way Arcanine...I remember way back when in PE2K...he was quite convinced of his own superiority...not much has changed...

This has no longer become a topic about politics...eesh... this is closed...reopen it if you guys feel the need to, but I wouldn't recomend it seeing as someone may get banned through so much flaming...