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View Full Version : Weekly Advanced Battle Episode #374: "The Scuffle of Legends"


Hiroshi Sotomura
October 22nd, 2005, 06:16 AM
The Scuffle of Legends
http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronan606/AG98.jpg http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronan606/AG98-1.jpg http://members.optusnet.com.au/ronan606/AG98-2.jpg
For discussion in the last episode of the Kyogre VS Groudon two-parter. ^_^

I wanted to beat you at making them for today, Steve. ;D

_Huggle_Bunny_
October 22nd, 2005, 06:29 AM
man that was perty good......suxs that they both went back to were the game from.....there is still 1 more part...but they all ready went back....wonder what the next ep is.....


But yea that was a good batttle between them...didnt think it would be like a 1 kit wonder....to make the orb come out whats his name.....but meh....cant be all gore-e cause its 4kids...lol

Charaxes
October 22nd, 2005, 06:30 AM
Here we are, the canonized version of the finale of Aqua/Magma and of the Groudon/Kyorge showdown. Going in this two parter, we knew it was a far too crammed story for merely two episodes. Three to five would have been better as to prolong and pace the horrors set in by the cataclysm. But alas not, as we shouldnt be surprised, as the writers still havent gotten rid of their Johto style of writing, with a dash of the first few movies as well.

Ill post my thoughts on the episode and then my thoughts of Magma/Aqua as a final epilogue.

Introduction: Simply the narrator explaining the previous episode, and did a decent job carrying the proper dread as well as the new intro (particularly with their Groudon/Kyorge snippet from Symphonic Melody).

Title: Fitting given the truth of the episode.

Crosshairs: The pace sets right off the bat with Archie settling into his dominance while the second movie Dub score returns, which is prophetic, given the cataclysm that was made when Lugia made its first appearance in the second movie. The tensions dissolve as Izumi and her crew protects Archie as he escapes (to an mini copter that wasnt seen in the previous episode and we were given overhead views of the temple to boot), with a showdown with the Magma agents and clips from the past Magma/Aqua episodes begin with the lineup, Homuras Mightyena with the Shadow Ball and Homuras battle face.

Homura once again plays on his dedication to the job by being the devoted soldier (as the first movies score plays? But then weve past established that 4Kids does not know how to score a scene), while unexpectedly playing into Lances hands by giving him the Magma leader, and quite the opportunity for the mole.

The usual cast: Is seeing the Rockets terrified worth the minute of footage? Unless it is the perverse pleasure of the writers seeing them abused and their image dashed, yet again. Just a pointless scene.

Power Surge: Archies delusion finally spikes as the Red Orb begins to consume him from the foreshadowing of the last episode, as he is ready to not only drown Maxie, but even his own agents, but would he have drowned the Aqua agents anyway as they outlived their usefulness? Although Izumis look of betrayal is almost touching from the histrionic agent, she usually doesnt elicit much empathy with her bravado. As Lance drops his cover to attempt to appeal to Archies dissolving reasoning, (which amplifies the weather) and fails, the G-Man descends into a monologue of the Orbs, but for whose benefit is this speech for? He isnt addressing Maxie or the Magma/Aqua agents overall, he just talks randomly, unless it is an aside to the audience so we know the real truth behind the Orbs. It is unsure if its clever or plain idiocy. Although the end of the monologue goes directly into Maxies fanaticism and compensates the effect nicely.

On the Loose: the wind with the Blue Orb charged Pikachu makes fast work of Magmas VTOL helicopter as Pikachus power spikes. And we get the full reunion with Lance and Brock and see Lances G/S/C uniform once again as he discards his Magma disguise. On a sub note, its good to see Wayne Grayson finally get comfortable with the role and maintain a nice, muted effect to the Champion, (as he should have with the character and the role as spy) so if and when Lance would return, Graysonll be fine. The cast reunites just in time for the massive tidal wave looming above.

Transition: The following shots nearly crack a neck beyond transitioning to the next scene, Lance and his signature Dragonite taking flight, Maxie and Homura spying the brats, and a betrayed Izumi reflects and contemplates to stop her renegade leader.

Merge: Lance in a desperate attempt to stop Archie fails as not even the Red Gyarados can stop him and we watch as the Red Orb merges, and we see the markings on a human now and Schemmel offers his best scream and now we see why 4Kids hired him, he does the megalomaniac villain well.

Opportunists: The Rockets scene does a nice job varying the pacing with the lighter fare of their scheme (supplied with unique crayon art for the Meowth fantasy) despite the heavy melodramatic tone of the episode. But alas for not as the writers play on more Rocket abuse with the static electricity for the Blast Off. And we watch as Pikachu and its rage sets the tone for the other God, the awakening of Groudon (with a bizarre and off putting shot of Ash as the scene ends).

Sunlight: Everyone watches in horror (including Izumi who just appears out of nowhere) as Monsu blows its top with a volcanic eruption and we see Groudons Pokemon Power: Drought and natural abilities kicking in yet the backgrounds appear to be extremely static for such drastic changes in the environment, including the animation with the first full shot of Groudon, once again, showcasing the series miniscule budget, which is ironic as the previous episode was exceptionally animated.

Epiphany: Maxies epiphany of Groudons is well placed as per canonized in the games with the timing but Marc Thompsons performance gives the Magma leader an underlying feel of regret and admonishment and carries the scene quite, particularly as Izumi muses in horror.

The truth of the Blue Orb reveals itself by Lance as he rationalizes it as Groudons communicator and opportunity to free itself from the cargo bay by using an able body; its not the first time a Legendary has used people and Pokemon (Mewtwo with Joy, Unown with Molly) to advance itself, but it is more confusing as how would Groudon know it was captured (we didnt witness the capture, so we dont know the conditions of Groudons mind when this occurred and Groudon looked dominant in the previous episode) or how it would know Kyorges awakening? Instead of an animal magnetism, which is what the attraction appears to be, the writers simply wrote a cheap exposition to explain away the plot hole of Groudons knowledge, or simply rationalization from them or 4Kids to explain away the error.

And Ash vows to save Pikachu despite the overwhelming fact that it would be suicide, and the tone of suicide carries enough throughout the scene, despite the optimism of the other characters (Brock, May, and Max) and/or 4Kids involvement.

Deluge: The plan is set by the heroes as Groudon (in his Godzilla movements with the Solarbeam) and Kyorge brings to the Water Gods domain of the sea in a fluid and intense showdown. If the attacks had more of fluidity, (and not constant clips) then the impact would have heightened all the more. Brock and May (with the third movies dub score playing in the background) set up the pitch by distracting the Aqua leader, with their minor attacks and prey on the Aquas God like new demeanor as Groudon delivers the final blow with a direct hit and Archies bond inexplicably severs with the Red Orb. While the damage hit the mark, it could not have been enough to sever such a powerful link as Archies will is one of dominance as he perfectly controlled Kyorge to sheer thought throughout the two parter, unless it is burnout but Lances exposition did not explain that possibility. And along with Archie, Pikachus Blue Orb simply removes itself and the show once again (and the early movies) pulls a deus ex machina to solve the issue as the timing is running out.

The Calm after the storm: Lance and the Magma agents look as Izumi attempts to pull her leader from unconsciousness and Archie falls under amnesia from his control of the Red Orb and again deus ex machina (yet while setting a nice shippy scene with Izumi/Archie) to end the Aqua threat.

The two Gods stare each other and their war seemingly ends, including all the hostility but more questions arise: Did Kyorge take over Archie as Groudon used Pikachu to free itself, and used him as a way to advance the flooding agenda, or now it is free of mind, would Kyorge attack Groudon on a normal level or enter in a territory depute as the past indicated they were mortal enemies? The conflict just ends as the Orbs merge with each other and are destroyed, ending the issue (with a fitting score in the background) with the Aqua and Magma hierarchy looking on.

Groudon retreats into Monsu Island (and for those who didnt observe from the Solarbeam attacks and the wading in the water, this is the writers most obvious reference of Godzilla, from a Godzilla 1985 reference, as he entered the volcano) and Kyorge swims away and everyone is left wondering the aftermath.

A Constant Lesson: The final scene in reflection, once again plays on the series eco activist stance but unlike past times, this message wasnt one of obnoxiousness but the real message is undermined by the omission of what happened to the Aqua/Magma high command as we dont see their apprehension or anything else beyond them looking in awe and thus wasting an opportunity of showing how constant vigilance of humanitys dark side can protect the environment in a different way. Or their resolutions to dissolve their respective groups or at least Maxies as he has his epiphany.

Reflections: While the setup failed from lack of pacing, lack of proper climax (not a surprise with this series), lack of plot progression, painful lack of fluid animation (in the backgrounds and foregrounds), and lack of script to animation logic, the small issues such as 4Kids addition of the second movie score, Team Rockets main scene, Wayne Graysons Lance, and the Godzilla references helped ease the pain of the Groudon/Kyorge showdown and Team Aqua/Magmas finale (and pray the next group of criminals, Cipher, Snagem, get a better setup, and more episodes to feature than what has happened here, with the activist organizations).

Episode: 6/10.

Aqua/Magmas finale: 4/10.

Aqua/Magma: After so many years (and playing with the Rockets), Game Freak tried something different, and played on an environmental message while playing on fanaticism that is consuming the world and that was the birth of Aqua/Magma. The organizations werent as stylish as the Rockets or as diverse with their Pokemon (although Magma had Butler) but the message was there and it was a unique one and one of contemplation, as opposed to the Rockets, which reaction to them is instinctive. The animated conversion process showed the writers hand as their first AG season; they did wonderfully with the sparse episodes yet maintaining the organizations presences and reinforced that with the first AG movie featuring a renegade Magma scientist and finally, prominence, considering how under written the writers were with Team Rocket, more was seemingly to be made to correct that.

But in AG 02, they had only two episodes of Aqua/Magma and while they were brilliant (Izumi defined herself nicely here), they were few and in between and a slant is forming, with the writers giving Magma more credence with their successes and Aqua, the short end of the stick with their failures (particularly in the form of Bannai). And the writers gave up and focused on May and Ash and their forums, (and making Team Rocket carry the majority of the episodes) rather than give their replacement for Team Rocket a proper flow and show just enough for us to care.

But here in their finale, they undermined Aquas relevance with a stereotypical supervillain format while building up Magma with Maxie meeting the twerps and showing more dimension to his message while giving none to Aqua and that is mixed further as both groups have nothing to show for it as we dont have much empathy for them, for we arent exposed to them properly. Perhaps, that is the point, the writers obviously did not care for the groups, (or the agents, which is why they went with the faceless route for the most part) so the best way to deal with them was to fade away and write them out as the season stretched on, which is a pity as Homura and Izumi are two of the more unique villains of the series and should have had more to their stories than simply what was there and should have had more coverage on them as people besides their roles.

The organizations may return as with the open ended finale but I doubt it as the writers already made their stance on the groups quite clear. God help Cipher if theyre converted but after what they did with Team Rocket and now their replacements, faith is basement floor and dwindling fast.

Im done. And becoming even more cynical of this series, if thats possible.

Hiroshi Sotomura
October 22nd, 2005, 06:44 AM
_mwu_: Avoid clicking the reply button more than once, okay? ^_^;

DoubleWide
October 22nd, 2005, 08:49 AM
Does this mean Team Aqua nad Team Mangma are no longer a threat? Team Rocket certainly isn't. ;)

Bomberman
October 22nd, 2005, 08:54 AM
First time I've seen the show in awhile, not to shabby, actually. :)

Charaxes
October 22nd, 2005, 09:53 AM
My long review is done, huzzah. Surprised I crammed all that in.

Incidentally, did anyone notice Wallace was missing throughout this arc as Groudon and Kyorge are kinda his thing? Or Steven? Although Lance's role as G-Man was apropos with the overall setup the writers have given him, so I'm not complaining much.

Edit: I'll just complain on everything else. Heh.

The Incarnation Pokemon
October 22nd, 2005, 10:45 AM
THANK YOU Dark Weezing, for noticing!

No Rayquaza, no Cave of Origin, and No Wallace. That ought to be enough to ruin this mini-arc for anyone. Thanks, anime people, for stealing Wallace's story, his job, his DUTY, and handing it via some convenient excuse about "g-men" to your little clich superhero pet with his 00bered Pkmn and OMG CRIMEFIGHT0RZZZ SKILZZ0RZ.

EDIT: At least this ep revealed the real reason Lance dragged his unnecessary butt to Hoenn, though. Yes, I'm sure Ash would *love* to ride back to shore on your Dragonite...two feet way from you...in midair...with nowhere to run...

Charaxes
October 22nd, 2005, 11:39 AM
THANK YOU Dark Weezing, for noticing!

No Rayquaza, no Cave of Origin, and No Wallace. That ought to be enough to ruin this mini-arc for anyone. Thanks, anime people, for stealing Wallace's story, his job, his DUTY, and handing it via some convenient excuse about "g-men" to your little clich superhero pet with his 00bered Pkmn and OMG CRIMEFIGHT0RZZZ SKILZZ0RZ.

It's funny, I completely ignored Wallace initially as he was just kinda there in the game, and didn't do much but still, it was his real chance to shine, or maybe what they could have done is have the GL be a G-Man, or do something besides look cool. However, Lance and his job was continuity and he was one of the few things consistent here (ironic as his previous appearance, he wasn't as such), so I don't mind his inclusion.

The real letdown was the setting of the two Gods. I always thought Groudon the aggressor with the rage and appearance and Kyorge the gentle one and instead, flip flopped the images. With the writers' pro Magma stance, they really wanted Groudon to be a hero, when it shouldn't as such and that wrecked the mythical horror the two Gods got going for them. Even the construct in the sixth movie had more dread than the real deal and that's quite depressing.

Pity Steven wasn't here either, in that his initial appearance wasn't much of anything, he didn't shine or do anything interesting beyond chide everyone for their disturbance of the cave (and then blew a hole in it with his Aggron but we'll ignore that).

It's funny that you mention the anime writers also. Between 4Kids' sheer laziness with their research (Trainer's choice "Arbok evolves to Seviper?" and their issue with Pokemon characteristics) and now with the anime writers can't grasping the canon conversion with the omission of Wallace, we're double pressed. It's getting harder and harder to sell this show at times.

Maybe if they didn't recycle ideas and characters, they'd get the concept?

Miss Reyna
October 22nd, 2005, 09:29 PM
Now how am I going to put a good review after all the ranting Darking Weezing had done with? I give it a shot.

The eps: The name like Dark Weezing said perfectly describe the eps. Short, sweet and to the point.

I liked it but I still say that it should have been three parts. Now that I think about it, they should make this one a long battle between Grondon and Kyorge with Ash, Pikachu and Archie in the middle. Then the third part being when Rayquaza, Steven, and Wallance come as reinforcements and explain everything else that Lance didn't explained.

One thing that I hated the most about this eps was that they made Kyorge the bad guy and Groudon the good guy. They even said that too but I think I can expalin why it seemed like that.

The Red Orb was in Archie's hands so Kyorge was feeding of his negitive energy but while Archie was being controled. Then Groudon was feeding of little Pikachu's good vibes and Pikachu was just being controled too.

It just that it makes a little sense but it still makes Kyorge looks like the bad guy and Groudon the good guy but it feels wrong. To me Groudon and Kyorge are great pokemon gods of nature and when Maxie and Archie trys to control them then it shows that they all foolish. It was nice to see Archie lack of fellow human life being shown win he commanded or told to get rid of everything on the island which inclulde his most loyal members. Then Pikachu in crazy mode. It just shown how can one just go crazy with power.As humans we can't control the gods or nature or a bad things will happen. We can't handle the power and responsibility.

I disappointed that niether Steven, Wallance, or Rayquaza hand nothing to do with this eps. Two of them have made anime shows but they were horrible.

Steven: He was made looking like a sissy with a aron and a crazy Aggron when he suppost to be the tougthest trainer in Hoenn.

Rayquaza: Was shown as a crazy beast like a dog. Rayquaza show be shown as a god like Groudon and Kyorge who brings peace.

Lance came out of nowhere but it was nice to see a familar face.

The battle of the gods were pretty cool. It shows waht power they have and seeing that Archie and Pikachu being use as puppets. Like I said, wish that the battle was longer.

6/10
Wish it wasn't so rushed. Lots could have been done to make what the Hoenn game/anime great was leading up to. A lot could have been done to make TA and TM final great.

misty-slave09
October 23rd, 2005, 05:33 AM
overall it was a really good episode but nothing compares to episode 319:
A Togepi Mirage!

Charaxes
October 23rd, 2005, 09:49 AM
overall it was a really good episode but nothing compares to episode 319:
A Togepi Mirage!

That's a self serving statement I think. The same issues that crippled this two parter (no exposition for the setup, rushed script, characterization), crippled that one as it was served to elevate Misty and shun May and not much else. I could point out all the flaws, and this isn't the format for that, although I was happy to see Misty and get some use of the useless Togepi.

Moving on. Ranting? Only at the end, reyne, heh. Next week will be the Tate and Liza episode Pt 1 and at least I won't be writing so heavily. I did here because of the importance of Magma/Aqua to me and a canon event converted. Pity things blew up as they did.

But you made a good point with Rayquaza, reyne. Given the whole Emerald shtick, you'd think they'd promote it to something beyond pissy monster like in the AG 02 movie. Eh, in any form, Rayquaza was just there anyway, so didn't bother me much.

It's funny because I always thought Kyorge as a Water Goddess of Life (all human beings and carbon life forms are made of water) and more for humanity if anything and then you could say Groudon with a heart of Stone argument but alas no.

That pro Magma agenda. I like Magma as they were more professional (uniforms and final goal) but still, give Aqua some dues as they're the alternative. Sighs.

Jude Mathis
October 24th, 2005, 01:12 PM
overall it was a really good episode but nothing compares to episode 319:
A Togepi Mirage!

Yeah, the Togepi episode was a good one too.
But I think I liked Gaining Groudon, and A Scuffle with Legends better; but thats just me.
The possessed Pikachu amused me. XD

Miss Reyna
October 24th, 2005, 06:31 PM
Reyne? Ok, that a new one.

Now back to the topic and also saw that too Dark Weezing.

I notice that TM was the more organize one because it was shown by Maxie. Maxie was dressed up with his well combed hair and the office. Nice touch.

TA was the trashly-looking pirte theme team and Archie showed that in his dress. Chain around neck and banndana. Never in an well looking room.

The animators did a good job and distingish the teams and giving them a image.

Not much to say about this eps then wishing it could be longer and what could have happen or done differently.

Forci Stikane
October 30th, 2005, 05:31 PM
THANK YOU Dark Weezing, for noticing!

No Rayquaza, no Cave of Origin, and No Wallace. That ought to be enough to ruin this mini-arc for anyone. Thanks, anime people, for stealing Wallace's story, his job, his DUTY, and handing it via some convenient excuse about "g-men" to your little clich superhero pet with his 00bered Pkmn and OMG CRIMEFIGHT0RZZZ SKILZZ0RZ.

EDIT: At least this ep revealed the real reason Lance dragged his unnecessary butt to Hoenn, though. Yes, I'm sure Ash would *love* to ride back to shore on your Dragonite...two feet way from you...in midair...with nowhere to run...

I might be a week late, but I still have to say something here.

YES, Rayquaza should have showed up in a 3rd episode. That I agree with fully. However. if Wallace had showed up, it would have merely confused the viewers, since he's the last Gym Leader (or Juan is, in which case Wallace is the Hoenn Champ) and him showing up before the 7th badge would just be messing up the timeline. Although, since Groudon and Kyogre were not put back to sleep/captured and neither A/M definitely broke up, it's fully possible that we're looking at ANOTHER Groudon/Kyogre-clash episode arc after the 7th badge when it DOES fit in, and perhaps then Wallace and Rayquaza will show up.

Charaxes
November 5th, 2005, 09:30 AM
Although, since Groudon and Kyogre were not put back to sleep/captured and neither A/M definitely broke up, it's fully possible that we're looking at ANOTHER Groudon/Kyogre-clash episode arc after the 7th badge when it DOES fit in, and perhaps then Wallace and Rayquaza will show up.

Given the spoiler setup and the plot setup, no. I think they're done with that, but as Battle Frontier returns us to Kanto, maybe you'll get your wish yet, if they return to Hoenn. But one thing about this series, they botch a lot of potential (this two parter one of the more egregious acts of this) so I sadly have to be negative here and say a good probably not.

So yeah, at least you're right: it's open ended. At least there is some hope...some day.

Morkula
November 5th, 2005, 10:54 AM
I have one thing to say, besides the fact that the buildup episode before this one was great and then we get this big letdown of a five minute battle and everyone lives happily ever after. >>

Did anyone else find the animation to be absolutly horrible? Every time Kyogre made whirlpoools or tornadoes, they used stil animationl. Which I can see that it could be for dramatic effect when it first fired them off, but even when Ash and co. are looking out at the ocean, they're looking at perfectly still waterspouts and whirlpools. And Groudon looked absolutely horrid. ><

Good buildup, but diappointing conclusion. =/

Miss Reyna
November 5th, 2005, 09:18 PM
That what I think everybody here can agree on. Most of us agree on a three parter or the still animation. It was still ok I guess.

SBaby
November 6th, 2005, 06:12 PM
It wasn't too bad. And it was a good way to tie up the Aqua/Magma situation.

I'll be waiting for the next 'Team'.