So let's say

[John Denver]

If I had a particular argument or problem with the staff, and I wanted it to be a public discussion to get both the staff and member's feedback, how would I go about doing that? I noticed there's no staff feedback thread (there should be) and everytime I try to talk about it in the DCC...a mod ends it, abruptly, for no real reason either...

just wondrin...

[Agent9]

um...wouldn't you have to get the staff's permission?

[John Denver]

I would need the staff's permission to give them feeback?

That's like asking a question to see if you can ask a question -_-

[Agent9]

erm, i didn't understand most of it...could you perhaps...explain it more simpler?

[John Denver]

It seems as though talking about the staff and what they do in an ever so slightly negative tone is against the rules on PC. Kinda like china...

I was wondering if there could be a designated thread or something for the members to tell the mods what they think about events and happenings. Positive, negative...whatever

[Ryoutarou]

Those staff feedback threads always went offtopic which is why we stopped doing it. And you know that we aren't against people saying things about the staff. Criticism and outright blind flaming and bashing aren't the same thing, you know that well enough.

[John Denver]

Those staff feedback threads always went offtopic which is why we stopped doing it. And you know that we aren't against people saying things about the staff.

Those staff feedback threads? We've had one before...I think if we set some ground rules for a new and let some things slide (not rule breaks) of course...it'd be a good thread

Criticism and outright blind flaming and bashing aren't the same thing, you know that well enough.

But that's not what I'm asking for is it, you know that well enough.

I don't hate you guys, or dislike (most of you) guys. It'd just be nice if PC was for the members and not the staff...

I can't talk this with you over MSN or something?

[Agent9]

well if this is the topic...i would want a staff/member feedback thread...it would prove helpful

[John Denver]

I'd still like to get some more feedback from the staff about this

[Rukario]

personally i'm all for feedback as long as it stays clean and friendly and doesn't evoke a flame war and so on..

go ahead and voice your concerns..

[Agent9]

but do they post it in community questions and feedback or Community news and events?

[Rukario]

it goes in community feedback.. it is what that area is for.

[John Denver]

this wouldn't be the staff feedback thread though O_o it'd be title

"Staff feedback thread"

and it'd be stickied...woot woot?

[Rukario]

no, just open a new thread based on your feedback..

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Oooh..

It seems as though talking about the staff and what they do in an ever so slightly negative tone is against the rules on PC. Kinda like china...
So true.. IMO. =P

Meh, a staff feedback thread ain't such a a bad idea, how about the mods put up some more rules to see that the thread doesn't go offtopic if it does... than just closing/removing?

[Freenaturearts]

I think the fact that it is a place for people to learn the heart and consern of their leaders is a good enough reason to stickie a staff feedback thread, this will also help us get to know are mods insted of treating many of them like eveil probes from hell when they actualy are just in the wrong place at the wrong time sometimes, and at the same time this will help people like me get to know the full out life of the mods,admins and Staff so that people like us (me and a few friends) could possibly find some way as of to help them in there perdicament.

Though flaming happends, there has to be a way to cassualy go about the argument with a nice manner and a very low key, and insted of closeing the staff feedback and saying forget it all like a biginning forum would do=/ . I would say you just go about it on a personal basis with the flamer and the flamie. This way it will be more orginized and certan people will look like they actualy are paying close attention to are feedback =D. Though I know they are now, egknowlegment in a personal manner will help cool their heads and clear the steam.

And at the same time sometimes a place with flaming is good o_O I've been wanting to suggest one but I am not the person to suggest it when I alone would not be useing it XD I have no flame wars with anybody that I know, and when I do I go person to person and even go after them on there AIM,MSN,Yahoo and e-mail adresses. All flaming happenin' by me is on a person to person basis.

So in a way you could have a special area for those not so sleek in their choices. This way both are fairly welcomed , and yes flaming and fights are bad and should be low. But it's like keeping a day care center when a place has no sign of someone feeling a little mad without being banned or caped for a few months X_X. Me included in such worries..

All in all, I LOVE this idea =D I'm sure what you meen by your personal message I gave you PPNsteve, at least this way the mods and staff themselfs can tell us there problems and at most get the hair off their chest^^.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

=P Spoken like a.. true supporter of the idea. *thumbs up*

Well the thing is kinda like.. the staff literally snaps back at you if you say something. But thats all IMO, so hopefully things won't be like that in the Feedback thread.

[John Denver]

Let's let this thread die...we already got the staff feedback thread! w00tness!

[Freenaturearts]

Sometimes the staff does snap back, but with a place like this the stress they can releave.. ^^ A staff feedback thread will surly get rid of the negitive energy of the intire crew and possibly give us much more friendly staff like they are already =D but most of the times we wont have to get to know them from IM purpose to actualy learn slowly that they are some of the sweetest people in the team. I myself usta be kinda scared of dakota. But after I talked with em on Aim for the first time last year =D I cant wait to see him on AIM so that whatever he says can be enjoyed ^^ some people here are just so cool that they in their tenceness never show it, =D And sometimes I even wish to know all of them on a first month basis o_O but thats alot of staff and I may end up making friends forever with how many that come and go. however now with a place like this, they may not leave so often for the problems they leave for can be solved :excited:

YAY! :huggles: awesome Dakota ^^ :runs to it and watches it for hours o.o:

[Kylie-chan]

Nope, not if we're getting bashed and flamed within an inch of our lives by members who can't control themselves, which happened... +counts+ the last four times? <_<

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

=P That's cause you couldn't accept the demands of the members.

Moderators work FOR the members, not for themselves and the position they have. They should listen to what the members say.. and DO as they are ASKED to. You're all the ones with the power to do stuff, but that's not using it if you'll just enforce rules with it and not listen to what members say.......

[Ryoutarou]

Those staff feedback threads? We've had one before...I think if we set some ground rules for a new and let some things slide (not rule breaks) of course...it'd be a good thread
Yes, threads, there have been at least FOUR staff feedback threads and they always go off topic.

[Kylie-chan]

Lance, we're not slaves for the members. We don't come here just to mod. We want to have fun, too. If you don't like it, just leave. <_<

And yeah, we really want to listen to members flame us because they can't conduct themselves in a reasonable manner. It's easier to blame us for their misdemeanours, evidently. --;

[Kurosaki]

=P That's cause you couldn't accept the demands of the members.

Moderators work FOR the members, not for themselves and the position they have. They should listen to what the members say.. and DO as they are ASKED to. You're all the ones with the power to do stuff, but that's not using it if you'll just enforce rules with it and not listen to what members say.......
Do we look like machines? Oo
We have needs just as much as you do, we're human beings as well. If we were here to take care of your every whim I would've quit a LONG time ago, and PC wouldn't even be standing anymore. >>

Like Kylie said, its easier for idiots to blame and flame us when THEY get in trouble, I guess because they aren't mature enough to handle getting into trouble~

[Geometric-sama]

And the fifth thread dies. Sic transit gloria...

[DragonTrainer]

Of course it dies, there's not enough maturity in this board for it to ever be a success, not right now anyways.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

=P *gets warning* I might get another one for this, well I'm going to keep my mouth shut after this.

So the mods think that PC will go down in seconds within their resignation? *sees a Modless Week coming like at SPPf*

[Ryoutarou]

No, not at all, of course if we had a modless week...we wouldn't care who flamed, bashed, or did whatever the Hell they felt like it to you. You wouldn't have anyone to cry to that someone broke the rules.

[Freenaturearts]

God :rolls eyes: what the heck. For one o_O hasent anyone heard of moral rights here? the real world has it why not this one, and two. We know about the last ones and I've seen two of them fall =/ I think everyonees been here for them. And yeah, some times it does break out in flames, but that shouldint ruin or rule your life, no forum should cause you such stress =D Just take it as it comes and dont take it personal guys ^^ thats all there is to it, the points of being mods and things is to keep a cool head and do your job, they may treat you like slaves sometimes and I'm even againced that. But still you just do what you can and if you cant do it then let us know. Thats all you have to do, you dont need to talk back like we too are some kind of evil hord of people o_O You gatta figure this place is most likly full of children teens and adults that have yet to grow up. Of cource there ganna begin by bashing =D thats why you need to just let it go off your back .


And the modless week is a BAD idea o_o we need you guys but some of you could do with a little feedback, sometimes you guys can be mean and not know it. And in this sence the place should be used for that reason. And no I dont like this idea of a all flame week, it'll crash the site! O_O
But there should be a special area for people to argue in, a thred just for getting the air shot out of you ^^. lol or vise versa. Still . We do need a staff feedback area so we and the staff are a linked community. insted of thinking otherwise. We didint get picked for the top 5 pokemon sites for nothin' .

And about this warning thing o_O that was a little far, but still.. We need to be rashonal and act like adults, those who dont know what a staff member has done for other forums and what it takes to be in theirshoose. Should possibly not expect there demands to be met ^^; Be a mod or somethin' elsewhere for awhile and see what happends to you.

though we need are needs met, you should always respect the person who watches over you. For without them it's like your mom or dad being dead in a street somewhere. You'r never ganna survive here.

[Ryoutarou]

God :rolls eyes: what the heck. For one o_O hasent anyone heard of moral rights here? the real world has it why not this one, and two. We know about the last ones and I've seen two of them fall =/ I think everyonees been here for them. And yeah, some times it does break out in flames, but that shouldint ruin or rule your life, not forum should cause you such stress =D Just take it as it comes and dont take it personal guys ^^ thats all there is to it, the points of being mods and things is to keep a cool head and do your job, they may treat you like slaves sometimes and I'm even againced that. But still you just do what you can and if you cant do it then let us know. Thats all you have to do, you dont need to talk back like we too are some kind of evil hord of people o_O You gatta figure this place is most likly full of children teens and adults that have yet to grow up. Of cource there ganna begin by bashing =D thats why you need to just let it go off your back . I wasn't being rude or jumping on anyone, it was a hypothetical question he asked and I replied with what would be the outcome.

And the modless week is a BAD idea o_o we need you guys but some of you could do with a little feedback, sometimes you guys can be mean and not know it. And in this sence the place should be used for that reason. And no I dont like this idea of a all flame week, it'll crash the site! O_O
But there should be a special area for people to argue in, a thred just for getting the air shot out of you ^^. lol or vise versa. Still . We do need a staff feedback area so we and the staff are a linked community. insted of thinking otherwise. We didint get picked for the top 5 pokemon sites for nothin' . First of all, an all flame area is totally against what the staff try to keep off of PC. It's not going to happen, if you're talking about debating areas...again, it's not going to happen. People have already proved to use twice that they can't handle. It was already decided that there would be no more staff feedback threads. Even with all the rules, the last two or three either went off topic of just happened to break out in flames. If anyone has any concerns, they can PM someone about it.

[Kira]

I wasn't being rude or jumping on anyone, it was a hypothetical question he asked and I replied with what would be the outcome.

First of all, an all flame area is totally against what the staff try to keep off of PC. It's not going to happen, if you're talking about debating areas...again, it's not going to happen. People have already proved to use twice that they can't handle. It was already decided that there would be no more staff feedback threads. Even with all the rules, the last two or three either went off topic of just happened to break out in flames. If anyone has any concerns, they can PM someone about it.

Or make a thread for his/her concerns/feedback only, as Steve said on the first page?

[Freenaturearts]

oh?

In this case I know what you meen ^^; I understand, sorry.

However I just put something in my signature o_o I know I'm not a mod here or nothin' but I'm here for the staff no matter how bad everyone treats you. Just let me know if you need someone to voice your opinion in a users veiw and not another mod or nothin' in this since =D I know I'm on their level and I know I'm not "higher then you" but I'm here for ya anyway o_o not many people know the scary side of me. And I just thought trying to get this off the ground for the fith time would help you guys out ^^;
And please dont leave for a week o_o I dont want another one happenin' like PWC and DF. I'll never find all of you again T_T....

Hey good idea =D then it would only aplie to that one persons problem or feedback that is good. Insted of a whole hord of people. And this would almost be like a personal message ! ^^ If they happen to flame or the other way around. It can easily be closed without hurting anyone that didint meen to make a flame or that didint do it at all and was being rashonal.

[Ryoutarou]

Or make a thread for his/her concerns/feedback only, as Steve said on the first page?Or just PM someone about it because usually when someone makes a thread it's out of spite? No, I wasn't talking about Dakota. The staff voted on and agreed that there would be no more feedback threads. They never stay on topic for more than a few pages and they almost always cause someone to flame or spam. Dakota posted a general thread, not a single concern about any one staff member.

[Freenaturearts]

Or just PM someone about it because usually when someone makes a thread it's out of spite? No, I wasn't talking about Dakota. The staff voted on and agreed that there would be no more feedback threads. They never stay on topic for more than a few pages and they almost always cause someone to flame or spam. Dakota posted a general thread, not a single concern about any one staff member.
__________________


I see, however at the same time if a bunch of people have the same problem is like asking a question again and again, if they dont see anything on it they will just keep bugging you guys on things you possibly or they possibly already fixed.

[Kira]

Or just PM someone about it because usually when someone makes a thread it's out of spite? No, I wasn't talking about Dakota. The staff voted on and agreed that there would be no more feedback threads. They never stay on topic for more than a few pages and they almost always cause someone to flame or spam. Dakota posted a general thread, not a single concern about any one staff member.

But if it's one thread, for one single oppinion/conclusion/feedback/whatever, then, it won't reach many pages, but if it goes bad, like flam, or spam, then *Close* and nothing is lost, and only the thread creator, maybe, if he/she had a serious oppinion/feedback, what about that?

[Freenaturearts]

:nods: that sounds reasonable, and this way like what was said, you wont be bugged with a million Personal messages of the same exact feedbakc or flame. And in this sence you can actualy egknowlage it if you dont look to often in your mailbox o_O For I dont look alot and sometimes I end up finding messages WEEKS old in there about stuff from people that have already been banned or that left a few days befor. Jolty for instants T_T.

If it's there for everyone to look at, then you will end up having to go in there one time or another to say your share without it just being two people.

[Arcanine]

Guys, a Staff Feedback thread or even a single Staff member feedback thread isn't going to happen. 4 threads (Staff Feedback) were closed due to flaming, and it was just a place where a member could take a cheap shot at a Staff member and call it "Feedback". Not going to happen again, we are not going to let it get out of hand like it was before.
And a single member thread is the same. You'll just have a bunch of members ganging up on that Staff member to make themselves look big. Like Jorge said, just PM them.
Like I said in the other thread, you guys don't know the bull we have to put up with (and if you do then you're wrong). We got enough things going on, and having a thread where members can come and take shots at Staff doesn't help.

[oni flygon]

I sense a Greg-Syndrome on the loose...

[Geometric-sama]

"Greg-Syndrome"? That's a new name for it. XD

[Freenaturearts]

XD niko lol.

Okay andy =3 thanks for letting us know ^^; but incase you guys still need backup just incase now they choose to gang up on one of you.. I just want you to know call me or anyone with something simular in there banner and we will work with you o-o.

I've admined a cupple of sites. Though I dont know the whole deal. I've been called a Mother ******* befor and thrown about by people half my age =/ just cause it was a "art only site". i know it hurts and I really dont want you guys feeling the same.

[John Denver]

Didn't Steve approve of this thread? Why did Arcanine get the last big flamey say in the thread then lock so no one had the opportunity to rebute him? Why are Kylie and David praetors but Jorge isn't?? Why is PC like this??? What happened?!?!?!?

This thread will be locked...you guys know how I know? Because I know the staff...I know how they work, I know every dang friggin one of them. You guys are wound up so tight about to snap at any second that you'll just destroy any NOTION of members disagreeing with you. You guys keep proving my point!! Everytime...all the time, never fails...if people talk non-positively about the staff in any way shape or form, it's deleted, locked, warned, banned...whatever, it's just taken out. Why is this? What makes you guys so paranoid?? I used to be just like you all, thinking if a member disagreed with us, it's obviously because he doesn't know how hard we work and how strenuous everything is and how much crap we have to go through with members and all the reports and locking and moving threads all the time...it's so hard to be a staffer, and none of the members know it...you guys know what?

That's a lame excuse

Yeah, your job's hard...sure, I know it is. But I can't count how many forums I've been on where the forum is so perfectly happy...you know why? Cause the mods stay out of it as much as they can. Yeah, they locked what NEEDS to be locked and move what needs to be moved...But you can't take that out on us. PC is so "staff-centered" right now on everything. The 25 char limit, locking threads that even hint at the notion of tension, getting rid of the t-dome, rep...everything...It's built to make the staffs lives better with the "who cares they're just members" mentality.

Before you think about locking this cause it's obviously "anti-PC" and I'm "flaming" you guys so horribly, please just check yourself. Imagine you were a member looking at the big bad staff...never letting you voice your opinion on anything unless it agrees with what the staff said first. You guys may say you let us voice what we wanna say as long as it's docile and tensionless...but it's simply ---not----true---...You count every non-pro-staff thing we say as anti-staff, and you end us right there.

Just think about it really...If you lock this thread because it'll cause a flame war and no ones mature about it and blah blah blah, you're proving my point -_-. I'd love for you all to prove me wrong now (ok that sounded really sarcastic, but what I meant was I'd like to be proven wrong which means that you guys really want change and stuff so you won't have to be so tightly strung)

[Haruki Hanai]

You really shouldn't rush time, Dakota.

[John Denver]

You really shouldn't rush time, Dakota.

...?

I don't really get what you're trying to say..o_O?

[Freenaturearts]

o_O Rush time ... nyah... And you guys erm, ^^? I dont mind anything that is going on, but look at it this way, you demoted Dakota and all of a sudden without the agreeable right of the people you banned him and bring in a new lead of preators? I starting to think it would be nice to be told when people become head of staff, i'm just glad that people that where moded in the site areas I go to actualy are my friends. If they wernt most possibly I would be banned by now for making so many darn Request threads in the Art forum though the rules litteraly tell me it's not alowed o_o I just learned that awhile back, but still. We would like warning ^^; it's only right.

However thankfuly it's another batch of people I dont mind taking over the job, Responsible, loyal and original. congrats to bobby and crew for the promotions, I know you'll do great.

I feel you some what are ostridizing Dakota here, and that alone is againced any humain law, so no matter what though you may not be breaking the law for the forum. You defenetly downgraded the forum on any ranking sites ^^; not you Tetsuya-san , or anyone who's spoken here. But some of you really have guts to banned and demote someone I care dearly for =/

[John Denver]

I try not to single em out...cause individually they're fine sometimes...just the decisions they make, I don't see how they can think it...

[Haruki Hanai]

Do you honestly think we ask the members about who we demote? The members of the AD discuss the demotions, and carry it through. And I do suggest that you ask before you assume anything to do with the staff.

[Freenaturearts]

I asked in the past and I got no answer...Agin I'm not flaming, that sounded anger orientaded. But I'm just saying, I asked that once and it wasint answered, and the only one that answered it was over pm and was a friend of mine saying to stand up o_o hense why I am so after keeping things peacful, and thuse ending this Ranking" in the mods that make somepeope think they can choose over anothers fait befor giving them a chance to explan. poor Dakota doesint even know what the heck he did o_O..

[John Denver]

Do you honestly think we ask the members about who we demote? The members of the AD discuss the demotions, and carry it through. And I do suggest that you ask before you assume anything to do with the staff.

I kinda agree here...it's not the member's decision who's modded or not. But input is never harmful...

And I want all members to know this. Me being demoted? Sure...I believe may have deserved some of it because I was acting flakey lately...

But banning me? No...I didn't deserve that. I know the rules just as good, if not better than half the staff. I know what I did and what I didn't do. Banning me was a decision they made based off personal disliking, not from PC rule breaks. You guys were all acting like old Steve when you did that. If it was anyone other than ME making those posts...they woulda never even been considered for a banning.

And that'll be my "back-from-two-weeks-of-being-banned" rant that you've all been waiting for...woo

[Freenaturearts]

I do agree, but we should at least be more informed. ^^; Like why you where banned for instance, they didint even tell you o_O. And I thougth a rule of the past was to NEVER take personal matters with the person into acount due to true reliability and response? All in all o_o that meens banning him just broke one of your own rules PC staff. (When I say PC staff I dont meen all of you ^^ I'm just saying to to those who voted to banned hi just cause they hated him)
He has no reason why you should hate him as he was. I even know he's a great guy O_O and I'm the one person who stood up to him three days after I joined! ^^;

[Haruki Hanai]

Dakota, you need to be aware that as a praetor, your warnings from then will carry over from that onto member status. So, you were flaming the staff or making bad comments about them, getting you banned for two weeks.

[John Denver]

Didn't Steve approve of this thread? Why did Arcanine get the last big flamey say in the thread then lock so no one had the opportunity to rebute him? Why are Kylie and David praetors but Jorge isn't?? Why is PC like this??? What happened?!?!?!?

This thread will be locked...you guys know how I know? Because I know the staff...I know how they work, I know every dang friggin one of them. You guys are wound up so tight about to snap at any second that you'll just destroy any NOTION of members disagreeing with you. You guys keep proving my point!! Everytime...all the time, never fails...if people talk non-positively about the staff in any way shape or form, it's deleted, locked, warned, banned...whatever, it's just taken out. Why is this? What makes you guys so paranoid?? I used to be just like you all, thinking if a member disagreed with us, it's obviously because he doesn't know how hard we work and how strenuous everything is and how much crap we have to go through with members and all the reports and locking and moving threads all the time...it's so hard to be a staffer, and none of the members know it...you guys know what?

That's a lame excuse

Yeah, your job's hard...sure, I know it is. But I can't count how many forums I've been on where the forum is so perfectly happy...you know why? Cause the mods stay out of it as much as they can. Yeah, they locked what NEEDS to be locked and move what needs to be moved...But you can't take that out on us. PC is so "staff-centered" right now on everything. The 25 char limit, locking threads that even hint at the notion of tension, getting rid of the t-dome, rep...everything...It's built to make the staffs lives better with the "who cares they're just members" mentality.

Before you think about locking this cause it's obviously "anti-PC" and I'm "flaming" you guys so horribly, please just check yourself. Imagine you were a member looking at the big bad staff...never letting you voice your opinion on anything unless it agrees with what the staff said first. You guys may say you let us voice what we wanna say as long as it's docile and tensionless...but it's simply ---not----true---...You count every non-pro-staff thing we say as anti-staff, and you end us right there.

Just think about it really...If you lock this thread because it'll cause a flame war and no ones mature about it and blah blah blah, you're proving my point -_-. I'd love for you all to prove me wrong now (ok that sounded really sarcastic, but what I meant was I'd like to be proven wrong which means that you guys really want change and stuff so you won't have to be so tightly strung)

I really care more about making sure the staff sees THIS ^ post...

[Kurosaki]

I really care more about making sure the staff sees THIS ^ post...
I'm one of the ones who could care less what the heck you think, D. It's just at the point where I've begun to ignore these immature rants about 'how the staff are bad' yadda yadda.

[Ryoutarou]

Didn't Steve approve of this thread? Why did Arcanine get the last big flamey say in the thread then lock so no one had the opportunity to rebute him? Why are Kylie and David praetors but Jorge isn't?? Why is PC like this??? What happened?!?!?!?I'm not saying what Andy did was right, but I'm not saying it was wrong either. And sure, Steve may have said yes to it, but a while ago all the staff members voted on it and voted against feedback threads. If Steve wants to say otherwise about it, I'll bring it up in HQ because it was voted on and that's how it's going to stay for now.

This thread will be locked...you guys know how I know? Because I know the staff...I know how they work, I know every dang friggin one of them. You guys are wound up so tight about to snap at any second that you'll just destroy any NOTION of members disagreeing with you. You guys keep proving my point!! Everytime...all the time, never fails...if people talk non-positively about the staff in any way shape or form, it's deleted, locked, warned, banned...whatever, it's just taken out. Why is this? What makes you guys so paranoid??You have no idea how we work, that could be why you aren't a staff member anymore. And no, whenever anyone flames us, whenever anyone uses 'feedback' as a means to bash the staff for not getting what they want, then we step in. We do take criticism well enough, but there's a line when it just crosses over into pointless bashing.

I used to be just like you all, thinking if a member disagreed with us, it's obviously because he doesn't know how hard we work and how strenuous everything is and how much crap we have to go through with members and all the reports and locking and moving threads all the time...it's so hard to be a staffer, and none of the members know it...you guys know what?

That's a lame excuse

Yeah, your job's hard...sure, I know it is. But I can't count how many forums I've been on where the forum is so perfectly happy...you know why? Cause the mods stay out of it as much as they can. Yeah, they locked what NEEDS to be locked and move what needs to be moved...But you can't take that out on us. PC is so "staff-centered" right now on everything. The 25 char limit, locking threads that even hint at the notion of tension, getting rid of the t-dome, rep...everything...It's built to make the staffs lives better with the "who cares they're just members" mentality.We don't take anything out on members, stop making blind accusations. If we did that, trust me, you'd know that we were taking something out on you guys. May I remind you that you were the first one to bring up getting rid of the rep. You were the one that set up that vote, we would probably still have rep if not for that vote. No one has that mentallity, I'm just going to be blunt, you made it up.

Before you think about locking this cause it's obviously "anti-PC" and I'm "flaming" you guys so horribly, please just check yourself. Imagine you were a member looking at the big bad staff...never letting you voice your opinion on anything unless it agrees with what the staff said first. You guys may say you let us voice what we wanna say as long as it's docile and tensionless...but it's simply ---not----true---...You count every non-pro-staff thing we say as anti-staff, and you end us right there.When I was a normal member I actually respected you and thought you were a pretty cool guy. I never saw any of you as the 'big bad staff members'. Again I'll say it, we never counted negative comments against us as flaming. We can take criticism, some people just don't know the difference between actually bringing up good points and calling us 'bias', 'immature' or whatever else they think is wrong with us. I frankly have no problem with someone calling us bias, if they can back it up. Does anyone ever do it? No.

Just think about it really...If you lock this thread because it'll cause a flame war and no ones mature about it and blah blah blah, you're proving my point -_-. I'd love for you all to prove me wrong now (ok that sounded really sarcastic, but what I meant was I'd like to be proven wrong which means that you guys really want change and stuff so you won't have to be so tightly strung)I'm not going to close this just because it hasn't caused a flame war. If it happens, sure then I'll lock it. But at the moment, there isn't anything wrong with this thread really.

[John Denver]

Dakota, you need to be aware that as a praetor, your warnings from then will carry over from that onto member status. So, you were flaming the staff or making bad comments about them, getting you banned for two weeks.

Any talkings about by banning I'd rather take over msn or aim or something...that would involve all you guys unblocking me *cough*

You have no idea how we work even though I was a staff longer than you were a member?, that could be why you aren't a staff member anymore. And no, whenever anyone flames us, whenever anyone uses 'feedback' as a means to bash the staff for not getting what they want, then we step in. We do take criticism well enough, but there's a line when it just crosses over into pointless bashing.


You're simply denying what I said...o_o This is just gonna turn into one of those "Yes you are-No I'm not" arguements...dang

We don't take anything out on members, stop making blind accusations. If we did that, trust me, you'd know that we were taking something out on you guys. May I remind you that you were the first one to bring up getting rid of the rep. You were the one that set up that vote, we would probably still have rep if not for that vote. No one has that mentallity, I'm just going to be blunt, you made it up.

I uh...DO know it...where was I the last 2 weeks

I also said I used to be just like you guys...and why are you focusing on that one example and not tackling what I actually said. There have been so many of these good staff bad staff debates on PC...tons of em...and they're always the same. Someone does big post...someone answers post piece by piece...response...locked...same old same old

When I was a normal member I actually respected you and thought you were a pretty cool guy. I never saw any of you as the 'big bad staff members'. Again I'll say it, we never counted negative comments against us as flaming. We can take criticism, some people just don't know the difference between actually bringing up good points and calling us 'bias', 'immature' or whatever else they think is wrong with us. I frankly have no problem with someone calling us bias, if they can back it up. Does anyone ever do it? No.


That's cause when you were a member, the staff WAS cool. ;)

And again this is another "Yes you are-no I'm not" response. I made good points...I said that you guys, quite literally, don't allow us to really talk about you guys on PC. Andy locked the feedback thread, why? You locked the DCC after I was demodded, why? Kylie locked my fan club fan after I was banned, why? Katsuro made a thread asking why I was banned. I know that it says in the rules that we can't talk about banned members, even if it's an honest sincere question, why?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OMFG I hate online debating with a passion, cause nothing gets done. But eh...I really, really (emphasis) really don't want to -fight- with you guys. I just want...eh

old pc

[Kylie-chan]

No offence, FNA, but we have the rule on not informing members of the reason a person was banned to protect their privacy.

[Freenaturearts]

:nods: I respect that ^^ And thank you for reastablishing that, but I feel bad for them and feel there must be a way to reason with you.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Hmph.. Andy said only former-staff had the right to critisize the staff, and I expected something better to go through in that situation.

Well, its almost the same with him talking than me ain't it?

Now see everyone, I've been here at PC for a REALLY long time. If you stare at my Join Date for hours you'll see it says Oct 05, but I've been here longer. I KNOW what old PC was like, and I agree with Dakota that right now, everything in PC is like for the staff's benefits.

[Haruki Hanai]

You wish. Half the staff around the PokéCommunity were members themselves back in your time. You can claim that there was an "old PC" and whatever, but if you think things were better back then you're really barking up the wrong tree.

[Freenaturearts]

In some ways I agree, but it is in ares too in many areas and how we are treated. Though I have even my ishues with you all there are times when I know the site is just fine, this is just deeper. And as for the age you've been here, can you say anything about your last sn? I've been haunting this place sine Pichuman told me it over a year and 5 months ago. 4 months before I joined.

And in what was said above while I was typing, the old Pc was in the day of Dakota, andy and crew, inless you are of their timeline and my boyfriend Tony's. You whernt of the old Pc... I'm not fighting yet again to remind people I amd for everyone and I am of this moment againced NO BODY who wont hurt me o_o But I will defend the staff from resent staff members like dakota, Claire*.ect.

[Ryoutarou]

Dakota, Jake, and Claire were all part of old PC. Hell, technically I was even though I was at it for a max of a week probably. Being here for a certain amount of time doesn't mean anything aside from...you've been here for a certain amount of time. The whole 'old PC' 'new PC' thing is just dumb, people almost always use it as a scapegoat for times changing and them not being able to move along with it.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Heh, we've moved around a lot, and us talking about oldPC newPC is us expressing our dissatisfaction with the current conditions.

Offtopic: Woo! Nice Zero theme Mihara.

[Haruki Hanai]

It's not an excuse. Your imaginary "old PC" may reference to the strictest period on PC ever, or the period where it was not-so-strict. And the vision of "new PC"... if you're talking about right now, you really have gone somewhere. You're dissatisfied now? I was under jeopardy as a member myself, and I could've been banned... permanently.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

I was under jeopardy as a member myself, and I could've been banned... permanently.

Guess what, so am I. Moderators feel that talking back at them is "disrespecting members" too. Heh..

[Ryoutarou]

Guess what, so am I. Moderators feel that talking back at them is "disrespecting members" too. Heh..
How many times do I have to say it? There's nothing wrong with talking back if you show a good argument and valid reasons for having a problem with a staff member. Don't confuse opinions and criticism with bashing and flaming.

Like this thread...am I a bit mad? Yes. Am I going to close this thread? No, there haven't been any rules broken and no one's done anything to merit any warnings or anything.

[Kylie-chan]

Only difference between Old PC and New PC is that the "new" version was simply restarted. Still the same forums. <_<

[Mario The World Champion]

I have read a portion of the posts in here and I can only say this.

It seems like bashing the mods and giving them a hard time is pretty much the norm these days. And every time a mod does something that will benefit the site, people think of it as them being dicators and trying to tell them what to do. That's why attacks on mods has been high around here.

I know that somebody in here might have said this before I did, but I'm at least one of the people here that show respect to the mods, even though a lot of them are old enough to be my younger siblings.

That's my two cents.

[Kylie-chan]

And by the way, Dakota, you wouldn't even had a problem with us if you hadn't been fired... and you admitted you deserved it. Then we banned you because of the way you dealt with being fired... but you refuse to accept that you deserved it. How big were those happy forums? Two members? Fifty? A hundred? PC has over 10,000 members. And how many n00bs were in those forums? One? <_< You can't compare PC to other forums and expect us to be exactly like them. I'd like to see what would happen to PC if it wasn't for the staff. The members are just as important but PC'd be chaotic if it wasn't for us having control.

You people who hate us would like to use the phrase constructive criticism and the word opinion to mask your unadulterated hatred... no one's denying you having an opinion. Like I said on MSN, it's the way you tell us how you feel. You can hate us all you like. Doesn't mean you can inundate us with useless criticism all of the time. Constructive criticism means to point out flaws and give ways to improve.. all you've been doing is comparing PC to other forums and dissing the mods without any valid reasons. Like Jorge said, you, Dakota, were the one who suggested getting rid of rep. It's staggering how a person could suggest getting rid of something then blame us for it. T-Dome? If people were mature enough to conduct proper debates instead of flaming each other, we could have kept the T-Dome open. We can't win. If we do something, we get criticised for it. If we don't, we're slack and we don't do our jobs.

You know, it's like about 20% of you take us for granted. I'd like to see that 20% in control of PC. There's no way that 20% would be mature enough to handle a forum like PC. PC would die painfully. These 20% like to flame the hell out of us then blame us for everything. I don't call that maturity. And yet you call the staff immature! That's just sad... really, really sad.

Certain people just throw harsh words at us without having any justification or meaning behind them. That's not helpful at all. If you can't adjust to the need for change, if you're that rigid, then you don't belong on the Internet. All through your life you will need to adjust to change... reminisce all you like, but it won't disguise the fact that your behaviour, which may have once been considered acceptable, is now intolerant. The past is the past. We change because there's a necessity to change... because there has been change. Don't bring up the past and throw it in our face, saying that we should go back to it. The past is gone. This is the present. You need to get used to that. Just because you were a staff member once, just because you joined PC early... it doesn't mean you're special, or that you know everything and can tell other people what to do. Congratulations on being part of the PC before it was restarted due to server issues? @_@

And lastly... Dakota, you say because I'm eleven that I have a lot to learn and aren't ready to be a staff member... I have a lot to learn, but so do you. And that's just pathetic that you would judge me because I'm younger than the other staff members. You were Praetor once; I'm Praetor now. You could say that means we've demonstrated equal maturity at some stage, then, couldn't you? Or you could just say that I got to be a staff member through bias, which you couldn't justify. And if you can't respect me, then don't talk to me. If you can't be civil when providing us with "feedback", don't give it. It's only making you look immature. My age doesn't necessarily mean I'm a little baby who can't do her job, just like your join date doesn't necessarily mean you know what's best for PC.

[John Denver]

I'm not gonna argue with an 11 year old.And Like I said before, I'd like talking about me being banned to be done over MSN or AIM. Pay attention Kylie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Um wow, to the guys that said Old PC is the same as the one we're in now. Jorge, you were never at Old PC (for real) so you can't comment, and Jake was a member for nearly all of it. How can you guys say that Old PC and this one are the same? They're nothing alike! I don't think the staff EVER got into fights on old PC, and I think we barely EVER had to deal with members constantly bickering about us...

When are andy or erica gonna see this...Aside from me, they're the only ones that really staffed old PC.

[Kurosaki]

Okay, I'm fed up with both sides now. These arguments always get us nowhere, and this is taking us down the same path. Can we possibly have a peaceful, no bashing/flaming discussion and work things out? I'm friggin tired of these arguments popping up, and I'm sure most of the other members are too.

To D's side: I understand you guys have your opinions, and I respect that. However, you shouldn't be taking it to the height where you're taing shots at staff during any chance possible. All it does is make them mad at you, and unwiling to work something out with you, since it does kinda rub off as immature.

To the side of the staff: What good is coming of arguing with them over and over again? They ARE titled to their own opinions, though they do sometimes take it a bit too far. We need to work with them to find a solution, thats what were hear for. We aren't here to work FOR the members, we're here to work WITH them.

Honestly, everytime an argument like this pops up it becomes an immature bash/flame fest from both sides, and even still no solution comes from it. Work together, people, not against each other.

Choose to ignore me if you want to, it's just my opinion after all.

[Chibi-chan]

......Dakota, what you said about Kylie was totally naive....it's just plain cold....>:

I hope you all don't think that D's side doesn't represent all of the members of PC. Though I think the staff can be facist, I'm sure they work hard for PC...if the didn't why the hell would they be here? I respect that. Seeing they have to deal with a whole lotta BS. People only flame because they think it will effect something. People don't compliment because they don't think it will change a thing, seeing how they like things the way they are. Get where I'm coming from? As a result, you only see the flames toward the staff. Actually, I'm sure people don't want to compliment because that would be considered being an asskisser. You know it.

Dakota: I said this before...would you really have cared about the members if you hadn't been demodded? I'm sure you'd still be posting fun posts...I've really yet to see you post something fun and random since you got de-modded...now it's all how staff isn't doing things right. How come you think about this now? Why didn't you think about this before and act on it then?

Supreme Edgeboy Max: I'm sure if you were a mod, you wouldn't be posting all of this against the staff -.-; I really do think that you just want to be noticed and become a mod so you can look like you have athority. IMO, of course...

This forum is supposed to be fun, right? Now it's turned into something different for those who care about it. The objective isn't to catch someone doing something wrong or point oout all of the n00bs. That just takes away from a forum....and dear God! This forum isn't fully for +13!! (or those who can understand) I'm sure some don't even understand what's going on...but they stay because they like PC. That's why we have so many active members. Some don't know what's going on because all they really care about is the Pokemon aspect and manga or roleplays or the emulation...and as long as they have that, they don't really care what else is going on...some people are like that. Nothing you can do about that. That's why you only really see flames.

Btw, isn't the greatest 'feedback' when members join, people actually post, and a forum is active? That's what most forums would be content with as feedback...

I hope you understand my perspective...if you bothered to read this

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Supreme Edgeboy Max: I'm sure if you were a mod, you wouldn't be posting all of this against the staff -.-; I really do think that you just want to be noticed and become a mod so you can look like you have athority. IMO, of course...

No way. Besides, I've probably lost any chance of being moderator with opposing them right now.
And you know, I believe I'll be more ~sensible~ and notice the things that ~we~ do if I'd be a moderator, and be on THIS side anyway.

Btw, isn't the greatest 'feedback' when members join, people actually post, and a forum is active? That's what most forums would be content with as feedback...

I agree with you there though, whatever we are telling the moderators is NOT feedback, and I know that.

[oni flygon]

No way. Besides, I've probably lost any chance of being moderator with opposing them right now.
And you know, I believe I'll be more ~sensible~ and notice the things that ~we~ do if I'd be a moderator, and be on THIS side anyway.

Yeah sure...
Like absolute power never corrupts anyone.


But yeah. I was from the old PC and I must say that this PC and the one before it are not quite the same. Sure I wasn't at the staff... but I did notice a lot of staff arguments that erupt out of nowhere... *coughCascough* *coughAlakazamcough*

And stuff changes, you know.

And Dakota, if you just dislike PC that much, just go away. What sense does it make if you're wasting an hour or so posting and arguing and when you know nothing of this would happen. If you're trying to get some Greg-Syndrome going, I don't think it's likely to happen.

[Arcanine]

When are andy or erica gonna see this...Aside from me, they're the only ones that really staffed old PC.I don't speak for Erica. But the reason why I haven't replied till now is because us three of us had this special thing. I mean all three of us were S-Modded the same time, all three of us lasted loger then anyone else (as Staff) on PC, all three of us were good friends. Fighting with you over the Staff isn't something I want, we're not going to get anywhere.

I told Jorge last night I wouldn't reply to this, so much for that. I'm not going to reply to anyone's post (not counting D's up there). But I am going to say a few things.

The old PC was different the new PC, I should know, I joined there (only 4 months after it was started too), I was Modded and then S-Modded there. On the old PC the members were closer to one another, it was mainly because it was a lot smaller. I do miss the old PC some times. But what's past is the past, we can't go back to that time no matter what. The past is for memories, not to dwell in.

I can see how you members might not get filled in on stuff or in the dark on things. Or think we've taken too much of your freedom way. It's not true, 95% of the things we (the Staff) do on PC is for the members. When we make new forums it's for the members. When we added the left postbit it was for the members. When we do Mod stuff it's for the members. When we help someone with a question it's for the members. We don't hate you guys, or we're not some bad guys/girls out to get you or make you look bad (unless you're a n00b and won't do any better). We just don't like it when you guys go around putting down the Staff for no reason. We don't mind opinions or suggestion on stuff to do with PC. It's just when it comes to "My way or the highway" or when someone is putting down Staff for no reason, that's what we don't like.

I'm not going to sit here typing up some super long reply to the replies to my post (everything I have to say in the matter is in this post and the one in thte feedback thread). Because I agree with David 100%, where is this getting us? Nowhere, just a bunch of people fighting over something that isn't going to change.

But I have one little thing to add. D, you shouldn't judge Kylie and look down on her because of her age. So what if she hasn't been here or been Staff as long as us? So what if she's younger then us? People shouldn't be judged by their age, you could have a 21 year old and that person could be a n00b where you have a 10 year old and one of the best members on PC. Age isn't a factor, what should be is how the member is (as in posts/Modding etc).

[Kylie-chan]

Dakota, the only reason you're not arguing with me is because you have nothing to fight back with. So what if I'm 11? Age doesn't count right now. And by bringing it down to the elementary basis of I'm-older-than-you-so-I-am-better-than-you you're just proving how immature you really are. If you had a speck of maturity right now you'd at least treat what I say fairly and equally to the others'. Andy's right. You have no right to judge me because I'm younger. Everyone else has the maturity [except for one other person who has nothing to do with this] to see past my age.

Guess what? My age is a lame way of disguising that you have nothing to say because you're wrong.

Dakota, you're just an elitist. "Oh, none of you were here before we restarted, therefore you're not worth my time." So what? Your point? That's right. You have none.

If you want old PC, go to the reference library. <_<

I agree with the whole of Andy's post.

And now, Dakota, if you're going to be so immature as to overlook me because I'm eleven [by the way, I'll be twelve in five days, and we've had twelve-year-old mods <_< Is that old enough for you?], then I have nothing to say to you, either. This IS just pointless. I have no further desire to partake in such useless crap. I'm off. D:

[Lightning]

I'm not gonna argue with an 11 year old.And Like I said before, I'd like talking about me being banned to be done over MSN or AIM. Pay attention Kylie.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Um wow, to the guys that said Old PC is the same as the one we're in now. Jorge, you were never at Old PC (for real) so you can't comment, and Jake was a member for nearly all of it. How can you guys say that Old PC and this one are the same? They're nothing alike! I don't think the staff EVER got into fights on old PC, and I think we barely EVER had to deal with members constantly bickering about us...

When are andy or erica gonna see this...Aside from me, they're the only ones that really staffed old PC.
Firstly, that age remark is uncalled for. You know just as well as I do that age doesn't always have an effect on maturity. That's all I'll say on that matter since I'm sure others will counter it as well.

The old PC = the new PC. I don't care what you say; it's true. The "old PC" was still titled "The Pokémon Community," just as the new one is now. It still had the same general set-up of forums. The same URL. Therefore, by default, they're the same thing. That's if you want to get technical, which I know you don't. But even so, the old PC is simply a precursor to the new one; it simply grew into what you see today. And you can either be proud of that, or disgusted by it. I for one am proud of what it's become. Sure, there are some discrepancies and I don't always enjoy my job here, or even enjoy coming here all the time for that matter, but all and all, I love this place. I always have. You can't just dwell on the past of this forum, if you do, like with anything in life, you'll only get depressed or angered by what it is now. It will never be the same simply because everything changes. Just accept that, move on, and stop bringing up the old PC as some sort of a justification.

That said, I'll still address your point. The old PC had its own share of problems. Sure, they definitely weren't the same as we face today. But keep in mind, there were far less members and staff back then as compared to what we have now. The difference there is huge. Like Andy said, everyone back then basically knew everyone else. There weren't a lot of members, so the active ones were very tightly knit. You may not know everyone per se, but chances are you probably know of them. That was the general idea back then. With the smaller member base, obviously, comes a smaller staff base. If I remember correctly, for a very long time after I joined there were only about 13 Moderators, 3 Super Moderators, and 4 or 5 Administrators. The staff list just didn't change, save for maybe one modding every few months, if that. As one of the member level, I don't know about you, but I definitely remember a general feeling of suppression all around. As a member, you simply did not talk back to the staff or criticise them in any way. To be honest, I don't remember any cases of people doing so. Perhaps I didn't open my eyes as much as I should have back then, perhaps I wasn't as well informed, but I do remember being simply paranoid of saying anything bad about the staff. Then again, maybe that was just me. Anyway, I also remember that when a staff member said something, it was as good as setting it in stone. If an S-Mod banned someone, it was permanent and they were gone for good. If an Admin didn't like something, that was the end of the line. There was definitely a distinct line between the staff members and the members that, no matter what you want to say, isn’t there today. Not to that extreme a level.

Now, compare that to "this" PC. First of all, we have far more members. Since I really can't say very much about PC from a member level anymore (almost regrettably, it's been...ages since I was at that rank, and when I was, it was only for a brief time before I took back my position), I can speak only as a staff member. As staff, we have a lot more people now than we ever did before, to ensure are getting the most out of their stay here. Instead of catering to a few hundred, we have several thousand, at the very least, to keep in mind whilst making decisions and going about our jobs. Also, in positive correlation to the member base, we have the rising number of staff needed to handle all the forum work, etc. What's the actual number now, forty-one altogether? I'm not saying the staff never fought on the old PC, but that was when there were only about 20 staff members. Now that number has roughly doubled. Needless to say, there will be some personalities that simply clash and no good comes of that. Sadly, as a Pokémon forum and not a huge corporation like so many make us out to be, there's not much we can do about that except try to resolve it on a personal level and go on our way. I take this moment to simply remind everyone that we're people too, just like everyone else, and we're definitely not professionals at what we do. Continuing on, if you take a look at PC, the fact that we have allowed Staff Feedback threads is a major improvement, even if the first one was only created in jest before "catching on" so to speak. I'll speak to these in more detail later, however. The staff--and I think this is probably a universal thing as far as forums go--always have to deal with people who dislike or even hate them. That was there, though far more subtly, on the old PC and it’s still here now. The only difference? We don’t silence or completely try to stop anyone from saying they dislike the work we do. We’re far more open now as a community than before. That can be taken as a good thing or a bad thing; it depends on how people use (or misuse) that freedom.

I’ve been watching this thread for a while, so it’s not that I haven’t seen it. I don’t even know what to say, really. I’ve been completely out of sorts for several days now—overstressed, etc. so I just didn’t feel up to replying to something like this because I was sure I would let myself get dragged into it. Since you addressed me specifically, I saw no reason not to reply though.

Now, earlier on you quoted yourself, wanting to be sure the staff saw it. I’ll address that too, and then I’ll make a final statement and be off, because I’m starting to get dizzy from my pills. ><;

Didn't Steve approve of this thread? Why did Arcanine get the last big flamey say in the thread then lock so no one had the opportunity to rebute him? Why are Kylie and David praetors but Jorge isn't?? Why is PC like this??? What happened?!?!?!?
Steve approved maybe not the actual Staff Feedback Thread itself, but he, along with the rest of the staff, is fully open to proper criticism of the staff. However, you yourself also know that thread has had problems in the past. Though I personally only remember it ending up with people saying “____ is inactive so demod them and _____ forum needs mods” which not only were we already dealing with, but that’s not even feedback. Now, I don’t agree with Andy getting that last say in the thread after locking it. We do have a policy about that and it shouldn’t have happened because, simply put, it’s not fair. Kyle and David were made Praetors last night whereas Jorge wasn’t at first because he was the one who requested a demotion from that position in the first place and we were simply unsure if he wanted the spot back yet. That’s not even your business anymore, and it doesn’t matter now because it’s been “fixed,” I suppose one could say. As for your final two questions…well, I’ve no idea.

This thread will be locked...you guys know how I know? Because I know the staff...I know how they work, I know every dang friggin one of them. You guys are wound up so tight about to snap at any second that you'll just destroy any NOTION of members disagreeing with you. You guys keep proving my point!! Everytime...all the time, never fails...if people talk non-positively about the staff in any way shape or form, it's deleted, locked, warned, banned...whatever, it's just taken out. Why is this? What makes you guys so paranoid?? I used to be just like you all, thinking if a member disagreed with us, it's obviously because he doesn't know how hard we work and how strenuous everything is and how much crap we have to go through with members and all the reports and locking and moving threads all the time...it's so hard to be a staffer, and none of the members know it...you guys know what?

That's a lame excuse
I too predict this thread will be locked eventually. First of all, it probably shouldn’t even be here now. Not because of the “staff bashing” as people like to put it (of which, upon skimming, I really don’t see much of), but simply because this kind of thing is NOT what I come to PC for. This isn’t fun, this isn’t enjoyable, and eventually it will get out of hand as all things of this nature do. Note how it’s stayed open this long, though. I was actually surprised to see it get off the first page. Anyway, it’s fine to “diss” the staff as long as you have something to back it up, but as of recent there have been more and more people just saying we’re biased or useless or little to no reason at all. I mean, it’s fine if one can give specific examples, but just classifying the entire staff as one entity with one explicit trait…that doesn’t make sense. Anyway, I think we do use that excuse…quite a lot, but for me, personally? I don’t necessarily like to get on and hear someone say that all of us, myself included in that, obviously, are biased or corrupt. Sure, the occasional offence is practically a given, but to say that we’re all always like that? That’s not fair. And…I know you know what I’m talking about when I say the higher staff especially has had to put up with a lot in the past and to be honest, it’s starting to wear on most of us. Hell, that might even be one of the reasons I’ve been so stressed out lately which has led to many other not-so-great things on a personal level for me. I think the next thing I’m going to say is more in relation to your next paragraph, so I’m skipping to that.

Yeah, your job's hard...sure, I know it is. But I can't count how many forums I've been on where the forum is so perfectly happy...you know why? Cause the mods stay out of it as much as they can. Yeah, they locked what NEEDS to be locked and move what needs to be moved...But you can't take that out on us. PC is so "staff-centered" right now on everything. The 25 char limit, locking threads that even hint at the notion of tension, getting rid of the t-dome, rep...everything...It's built to make the staffs lives better with the "who cares they're just members" mentality.
…I don’t have to explain all of these to you, do I? The 25 character limit is there for the people who don’t put any content in their posts. They’re the one’s that try to reply to a poll with a simple “yes” answer. While sometimes that will suffice, most of the time it doesn’t! 25 characters isn’t a lot at all. We haven’t had complaints about that in ages. Recently, we haven’t locked many threads at “the hint at a notion of tension.” Again, I think we’re very lenient, but if you feel that’s such a concern, simply bring it up with specific examples and the decision in question will be reviewed. If deemed an unnecessary closure, then it’ll be opened. Everyone judges things differently and maybe the mod was just too quick to close it. The T-Dome. Why are you even bringing that up? You yourself agreed completely with its removal? It became a magnet for sex and flaming—both of which are completely unnecessary at a Pokémon forum. We do allow debates so long as they don’t get out of hand, you know. It’s not like we see something with two sides that oppose each other and go, “oh noes! Flame potential! We have to close it NOW.” Just…keep things to a low simmer and no intervention needs to be made with the thread. Finally, no one complains about the lack of rep either. You know just as well as I do it was taken away because of abuse—it wasn’t going to stop and simply saying, “if you don’t like getting bad rep, turn off your rep” wasn’t working. So it was pulled.

Before you think about locking this cause it's obviously "anti-PC" and I'm "flaming" you guys so horribly, please just check yourself. Imagine you were a member looking at the big bad staff...never letting you voice your opinion on anything unless it agrees with what the staff said first. You guys may say you let us voice what we wanna say as long as it's docile and tensionless...but it's simply ---not----true---...You count every non-pro-staff thing we say as anti-staff, and you end us right there.

Just think about it really...If you lock this thread because it'll cause a flame war and no ones mature about it and blah blah blah, you're proving my point -_-. I'd love for you all to prove me wrong now (ok that sounded really sarcastic, but what I meant was I'd like to be proven wrong which means that you guys really want change and stuff so you won't have to be so tightly strung)
In the last few weeks the staff has really tensed up. That whole Steve thing really took a lot out of most of us. So to get back on so soon after it “blew over” and to see people just saying bad things about the staff in general wasn’t the greatest. Sure, at times we as a whole likely over-react, but it people were to give REAL reasons for why they don’t like or disagree with the staff so severely it wouldn’t be so bad. Most people don’t give us those reasons, hence why after a while it just begins to irk us.

The Staff Feedback Thread. In theory, it’s a good idea since it would let people comment on the staff and let the staff know who’s acting up and who’s doing a good job. Like I said before, in the past, the thread always ended up delving into a plethora of posts that weren’t very useful at all. Basically just people saying which mods were inactive (something already known to the staff) or which forums needed mods (again, already known to the staff and more like a cry for attention for the member who brought it up to be modded). It was rarely—if ever—actually used to give real feedback. If we did get it, it would be so vague that nothing could be done about it. Or it would be the result of a member not liking one perfectly fine decision made regarding his or her thread, etc. Then, also, if someone did have a real reason to complain about the staff, I know a lot of people would be too shy or timid to post said complaint in plain sight of the entire board and especially the staff member in question. So to be honest, simply PMing one of the higher staff and especially one of admin ranking is just a lot easier for everyone. Not only is it discreet, but it’s also far more efficient. One-on-one, for example, I would be able to ask questions and get all the details regarding the situation and then be able to bring it up with others to make a decision regarding the information. In a thread, it can sometimes be harder or more awkward to disclose that kind of information to a public audience. Not only that, but it prevents the thread as being a medium used only to rally others into some sort of an anti-staff ideal. (While that’s fine when merited, it usually isn’t.) If there’s a problem with the ENTIRE staff as a whole, then it might be best to open a thread on it, but even still it’s probably just best to PM someone. I’m not saying this so that everything regarding the staff will always be done hush-hush. I simply believe it would be easier this way, not to mention tensions wouldn’t run so high all the time.

And…now with my free time suddenly gone as that took way longer than it should have, I’ve gotta leave off there. If anyone has anything else they'd like me to reply to, please point it out. o.o

[Freenaturearts]

Thanks for your post Lighting :hugs: o_o you made that alot more organized then what I was about to say :thumbs up: To all or most of what she said I agree o.o however Kylie-chan. I'm not saying anything bad, but maybe he's not fighting back cause it's just childish?

[Yameneko549]

I don't know how you staff members handle all the bashing, but you do, and I salute you for that. In fact, you guys handle the boards a lot better than several other forums I've been to, and that's saying something.

I really don't have time to pick through all the endless crud right now, or else I would comment on a couple of things. Maybe later, after I've got my laptop set up again and my schoolwork is done, I will.

You guys rock, and I honestly mean that.

[Kylie-chan]

You know what's childish?

Using my age against me. x.x Given that he initiated this whole thing anyway... yeah.

+is off now <_<+

Thanks, Yame~TD.

[Freenaturearts]

he ment that towards you O_O?!.... Okay .... Did not get that but I will see why he did that ¬¬ Age makes NO differents. I'm a prime example XD My age says I'm 18 but I'm actualy a very imature 18 year old. O_O So those younger can be even more mature. It's nothing to make fun of o.o why did he use that? :goes to look for him on Aim

[John Denver]

Sorry to burst you guys' bubble but, age does make a difference. How many of you have little brothers and sisters that get on your nerves, that act like they know everything even though you KNOW they don't. Not every time, but nearly every the time. I made that age comment about Kylie because I did talk to her extensively OUTside of PC, and everytime I'd try to get a good grounding conversation with her, she'd end it with "well you're just stupid and immature" or "you just don't understand kthnxbye". I just don't want to deal with it, so I'm not gonna argue with an 11 year old. For all of you people with younger siblings who bother you and never see any side, you don't like arguing with them do you because it's pointless and it gets you no where? That is where I'm coming from, and that is why I'm not gonna argue with Kylie, she'd already proven to me she can't keep a flame-free conversation with me. Lotsa you guys support her because you're friends with her, I don't blame you. But don't judge me because I said what I did.

I respect Erica for replying to my post with open ears. I know that every higher staff has had to defend themselves in one way or another on PC against idiotic n00bs who just want to complain with big long posts explaining why they're right. I just wish I could talk to you guys individually. Online discussions mean nothing really, cause they never get anywhere...so I'm trying to give as many facts and reasons as I can. You guys can accept them or reject them, and I honestly expect you do reject them >_> It's easier to win the lottery than to change someones opinion of themselves online.

I'd really like to talk to you guys over MSN and AIM ._.

And to those who said I'm only acting like this because I was demodded, you're simply incorrect. I've been fighting for a new PC for months now, ask any of the higher staff I'm friends with (who I still consider friends), and I guess this is where it went to. I'm not so mad about being demodded, seriously...I'm seriously not. But banning me just put me over the edge. It was just plain wrong, and it made me realize what I had done in the past. I remember being a higher staff that sometimes I (and every other higher staff has done it to) would ban someone simply because I didn't like them. I would find something, ANYthing about them, any loophole and get them banned. I never even knew I was doing it! I was a superhero in my own eyes, I never once thought I was doing wrong. But I was doing wrong...And what the higher staff did to me made me realize everything about em.

In the two weeks I was banned it made me check myself when I was higher staff. Gave me the whole "some things have gotta change" vibe goin...Lotsa you members go on and on about how great the staff is (they're not stupid, they know most of you are brown nosing because you wanna be a mod) but you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER of what they have to do everyday. Yeah it's hard...but some of the stuff they do is just plain wrong.

I'd rather talk to them about this over MSN or AIM. I say that a lot, but I mean it >_>. It's too frivolous and tedious over PC.

[Kylie-chan]

I never said "You're just stupid and immature". That's different to "You're being stupid and immature". O_o;

I did talk to her extensively OUTside of PC Really? Fifteen convos or so isn't what I'd call extensively. As for harrassing me in my Xanga, that doesn't count. @_@;

Dakota, you just called yourself biased. You called us biased. Yet, oddly enough, I don't see a justification there. "Oh, you guys ban people just because you don't like them." We've banned people we like before. We also ban people we don't like. Why don't we like them? Because we don't like rule-breaking. I can't believe you could possibly expect us to like you after the way you behaved. <_<; However, if we had liked you, we'd have banned you anyway. The behaviour you showed was inappropriate. You were a Praetor at the time you managed to get the DCC closed for your actions. That kind of stuff is just not on. @_@; You can't justify that kind of behaviour. Threatening to mass-spam... bashing mods [mods count as members <_< We all are members. Some just have mod powers]... and so forth.

You asked for links. The posts have been deleted. Why did we delete them? Because they were unacceptable. That should be proof enough.

Oh, and by the way - a few of the people who "support" me in one thing or another [not necesarily this] aren't really friends. I might also add that I am an older sibling. XP

[John Denver]

Every example you give is flat out wrong Kylie...why is this?

LOL at Generic's name change...bubblebutt?

And like I said...again...any talking about me being banned...MSN or AIM, please...I don't want to go crazy here on PC. But I'll gladly talk to anyone over msn or aim about it.

I'd still like to get s'more feedback

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Heh, ya'll hate me so much, but you still didn't manage to ban me yet. =P

Yeah sure...
Like absolute power never corrupts anyone.

Heh, just the thing I wanted to hear. Just looky, the exact thing's happened to you. You're being one minded to PROVE to everyone that you rule. Oh and one more thing, being immature doesn't necessarily mean the person is immature. A person acting weird may just as well be mature enough to be better then any of ya'll.

Just one thing though, for some reason I'm having confusion over what we're fighting for.
Dakota is out to tell the moderators they're wrong in a lot of aspects, the moderators are out to prove HIM wrong, and I'm just in the middle somewhere for some reason.

[Dark Quill]

Well, Edgeboy is kinda telling the truth, some of the moderators are getting a little too jumpy at some basic mistakes, like double-posting for example.
I can't say I'm not taking sides, but I kinda agree with Dakota and Edgeboy on some of their points.
Just my opinion is all... No need to get worked up over it...

[Haruki Hanai]

Actually, the staff are out to stop the people who've been tarnishing our reputations just because they were demoted, a.k.a. Dakota.

Dakota, you're leaving flamebait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait) from your comment on Kylie.

Max, stop making overall accusations of the staff in general.

[Dark Quill]

Hang on, Dakota was a moderator before?
Hmm, that changes things...

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Meh, I don't remember, but he was an admin I think.

[Zaikiro]

He was orignally a Praetor. That was his poistion.

[Dark Quill]

Praetor? 0_0.
Whoa, that's big. Hmm, so many conflicting thoughts, so few descisions...

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

That's kinda right...

HEY! I never made accusations over all the staff! I just said..

Stuff should get a little less strict, or else soon PC will become like SPPf..
Moderators shouldn't get annoyed with members so easy, just some time back someone said that they get annoyed by reports.. =P
Well, even Dakota said getting thousands of reports was annoying, so why not ya'll find a way to stop them from getting into your PM boxes and STAYING in that forum? We don't come crying to you because we can't take care of situations on our own. We get annoyed with things in the forums, that's when we report stuff to you. Its your job as soon as being appointed as a mod to head down there and stop anything that goes on weirdly. If ya'll won't like getting reports to deal with, why not just shut it up, and lets see how many spammers get around getting no warnings and all from moderators.

^ Just a thought...

And about another thing, Dakota WAS right when he said the staff snap back at every small little detail said about them.
Look, we're debating here, but there's a 99% chance that one of ya'll will come lock this, ending things without a PROPER conclusion and see how we're going? Ya'll keep telling the same thing over and over basically, and we don't get nothing.
We're not accusing y'know. WE'RE TELLING THINGS AS WE SEE THEM, or at least I am. Moderators' jobs are also to provide well being of the members of a forum y'know.
You're snapping back at these things even in a debate-like situation. Stop and think about it..

Oh, and if ya'll say something about me being the only one who see's these, that's 'cause most of the people here don't have the guts to talk back to ya'll..

^ More thoughts.

Lets see how ya'll angrily reply to these.

[John Denver]

Actually, the staff are out to stop the people who've been tarnishing our reputations just because they were demoted, a.k.a. Dakota.

Dakota, you're leaving flamebait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait) from your comment on Kylie.

Max, stop making overall accusations of the staff in general.

Yeah I kinda was leaving flamebait. I suppose I was just mad at her...

And I know it seems like this is all because of me being demoted, but it only half is. If I was still a praetor, I'd still be fighting for a new PC like I was (you didn't know about it, but me, jorge, erica, and andy were plotting some things after steve did you-know-what) It never actually pulled through, but I still fought. Being demodded was just the ignition I need to make me realize how you guys think, and how I used to think.

And I'm not rebelling Edgeboy...I want to work with the staff and tell them what no one's told em before. My case has seriously never come up on PC I think.

Yeah I used to be a praetor. I was the longest running staff member to I think, 3 yearsish?. So I'm one of the few people here who actually have the right to critique them. So many n00bs complain, even when they're clueless...

Lets see how ya'll angrily reply to these.

Quit badgering...

[Kurosaki]

That's kinda right...

HEY! I never made accusations over all the staff! I just said..


Well, even Dakota said getting thousands of reports was annoying, so why not ya'll find a way to stop them from getting into your PM boxes and STAYING in that forum? We don't come crying to you because we can't take care of situations on our own. We get annoyed with things in the forums, that's when we report stuff to you. Its your job as soon as being appointed as a mod to head down there and stop anything that goes on weirdly. If ya'll won't like getting reports to deal with, why not just shut it up, and lets see how many spammers get around getting no warnings and all from moderators.

^ Just a thought...

And about another thing, Dakota WAS right when he said the staff snap back at every small little detail said about them.
Look, we're debating here, but there's a 99% chance that one of ya'll will come lock this, ending things without a PROPER conclusion and see how we're going? Ya'll keep telling the same thing over and over basically, and we don't get nothing.
We're not accusing y'know. WE'RE TELLING THINGS AS WE SEE THEM, or at least I am. Moderators' jobs are also to provide well being of the members of a forum y'know.
You're snapping back at these things even in a debate-like situation. Stop and think about it..

Oh, and if ya'll say something about me being the only one who see's these, that's 'cause most of the people here don't have the guts to talk back to ya'll..

^ More thoughts.

Lets see how ya'll angrily reply to these.
Oh for crying out loud. D you know why you cant change anything, or get the staff to listen? It's because of posts like that where you're bias to one side, and one side alone. Until you're staff, you shouldn't be making assumptions of how we work. The only one in that thread who really has that right is D, and he's not even pushing the fight as much as you are.

Now can we all work TOGETHER, instead of FLAMING and BASHING each other? That applies for both sides.

[Dark Quill]

Maybe if you made it sound a little nicer, people wouldn't think your snapping back at them?
I've been told off many times (for some strange reason, it always seems to be by Kylie) for going off-topic, but its these small reminders that always sound hurtful, and these warnings do not teach members HOW they should post.
Like myself, many people are used to writing on sites that are a little more leniant, and even ones that do not have an edit button.
If you wanted to stop people posting off-topic things and such, perhaps you should open a posting-tutor kind of thread?
THIS is community feedback.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Well said Quilly.

See? That IS one of the things I'm trying to prove. And well, we're not rebelling either, just pointing out the little its and bits of wrong things in the ways of the moderators.

We're TRYING TO WORK WITH ya'll, but see? You come up saying we make assumptions of how you work and we have no right to talk back to you about it. And you don't listen, and wait for Dakota to come and say something to you. You don't even show any CURIOUSITY for what some of the members think about you. What do you want, us to become moderators, then get de-modded, and THEN get the right to say something? We can't do that, and well, if ya'll say giving feedback is okay, let us give it, in whatever way we can think it up to.

[Kurosaki]

Unless you can't see it, the final portion of my post was directed to the staff as well. All you've been doing is trying to make the staff mad, and at least D is making an effort to be nice about what he's saying.

Just because I don't post "I'm curious" doesn't mean I'm not, either. Oo

And I probably worded that D comment wrong, again. I meant he's the only one who's seen what we do in HQ and the lounge, so hes the only one who can talk based on that.

[Dark Quill]

Hey, I did just state that if the mods weren't so snappy with their answers, they'd probably be taken a little more seriously, instead of being seen as a flame-response.
I'm not trying to make the staff mad, I'm just trying to have a little more hands-on-controll the situation here.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Meh... they probably take our posts as flames too just from minor little things.

Unless you can't see it, the final portion of my post was directed to the staff as well. All you've been doing is trying to make the staff mad, and at least D is making an effort to be nice about what he's saying.

Just because I don't post "I'm curious" doesn't mean I'm not, either. Oo

And I probably worded that D comment wrong, again. I meant he's the only one who's seen what we do in HQ and the lounge, so hes the only one who can talk based on that.

Heh, I saw it. My point was exactly, that YOU DON'T LISTEN TO US, so how can we work together?

Meh.. and like you said, Dakota is the only person who'se seen ya'll do your work, and we haven't. So we can assume and think about all that we want, 'cause we don't know anything. You can't talk back at that. Tell us exactly what you do and all, so we know.

Not that we ARE making assumptions though...

[Kurosaki]

Meh... they probably take our posts as flames too just from minor little things.



Heh, I saw it. My point was exactly, that YOU DON'T LISTEN TO US, so how can we work together?
Stop being so general, it isn't ALL of us, so stop speaking like it is.

Meh.. and like you said, Dakota is the only person who'se seen ya'll do your work, and we haven't. So we can assume and think about all that we want, 'cause we don't know anything. You can't talk back at that. Tell us exactly what you do and all, so we know.
I don't see why you're whining and moaning about that to us, it's Steve and Kwesi's system, we just follow it.

Not that we ARE making assumptions though...
*cough*
The definition for assume: To take over without justification.
Where's your proof? Evidence other than your word?
Al I basically see in your posts now is "I'm gonna see how much I can piss the staff off because I haven't been getting my own way." Out of ALL the active PC members, maybe 4 or 5% think like you guys do. You aren't even open to reason, but rather take what we say and twist it to make it look like we're flaming, or being rude to you, yadda yadda. At least D has the maturity required to discuss such a topic.

[Fushigimotsu]

Ty here. (I'm surprised this account hasn't been banned this time. o_O)

Max... a bit of advice. Shut up, now. You have no idea what you're talking about; you're just throwing out insults like a staple gun. I was exactly the same, and look where I ended up. Just get your facts straight or stay out of it. Nobody's going to respect you more just because you can insult figures of authority.

Now can I have my perm.? ;_;

[SBaby]

I'm going to try to answer the question to the best of what I know.

I personally haven't had a problem like that with the mods here. I find that PMing them usually won't get a negative response as long as you aren't disrespectful. Of course, don't PM them for every little thing. It DOES get annoying.

Also remember that some of the Mods are 'in character' here. So when you go saying they're flaming you, check around and see if they're not like that to everyone first. You might be surprised.

[Freenaturearts]

Ack.......... so much fighting and nothing getting resolved O_O!
To begin with I believe half of whats being talked about here is on a personal basis, the fight with Chan and Dakota for one. And the problem Max is say is about the only thing here that actualy resides to the beginning Question o_o.

And again what happen to Personal matters that useta not be alowed on Pc? Chan, I know you and dakota have problems but isint there a way to speek over that with a chatroom or something? I know since a message I got from dakota how you and him are on the basis of the posts made yesterday. At the same time cant you guy just openly alow eachothers conversations without fight untill you get kind of a biger picture in their ideas, another reason why fights are breaking out is cause you dont mention the exact words you are saying and you are using short turms insted of people fully explaning where they are coming from on this o_o.

I know i'm not one to talk but this place seriosly needs open insite. A place where people just fight back and forth about sertan things is just like a quiet flame thread =/ There must be some way to explan to eachother where one another is coming from while at the same time finding a way to debate among eachother without turning it into a instant fighting ring -_-;.


Edit: the post above me explanes a little something about the personal message standerds o.o and thanks for getting it out in the open. But though it may get anoying, this place is in a since a social breakdown.m if it gets anoying, the person getting the messages again and again could possibly just not be getting the right answer and it is best to continue on untill the means are met. It may get anoying but thats no reason why you shoulint do it o_o I beg for the day when poeple talk reasonably and personaly in a Personal message, only the last three weeks have given my Pm box anything personal to talk about X_X many messages I get are question but same goes for that. It gets anoying yes. But only when you get a message can a ishue be resolved.

[Chibi-chan]

o.o I do kinda agree that this seems to be Staff vs people who have been staff or know what PC goes though.

And for what was stated by Ty, why I'm not debating. I'm going to be open and say I'm naive *coughhencewherean11yearoldexceedsmyknowledge* because I don't have straight facts. If only someone else would find that out too....

FNA, unfortunately, we will never live in the land of perfect D:

[John Denver]

Everyone that seems to be on my side of the arguement really hasn't helped my side out at all...ugh...99% of the people who are arguing for my side are the "OMG STAFF SUCKS" types, and they wanna label me as the poster child for their arguement. Sorry to burst you guys' bubble, but I'm not anti staff. I'm not rebelling, and I'm not gonna follow this whole "get rid of mods" movement. I think we should work WITH the staff...So if you use me as an example in your little posts, make sure you know where I'm coming from.

~My problem with the staff in regards to PC~

It's my opinion that most of the staff use the rules and regulations to work in their favor and not in that of PC. I also believe that a lot of the decisions they make are for personal gain and ease.

*note: I have an advantage over the other members regarding this because I was a higher staff longer than anyone (aside from Erica and Andy...mah buds...we were all promoted at the same time)

------My Examples--------
----------A: I think they do not tolerate members speaking about them in a non-positive way by locking/deleting/banning. This is shown several times in facts that the last five staff feedback threads have been closed. I think the staff takes even the slightest tense post as a flame, and gets rid of it. Which, to me, seems communist.
----------B: It was my personal experience as a staff that I saw several higher staff (including me) ban members simply because I didn't like them. We would, quite literally, ask around to see if that member has done anything bad yet, and once they did something (even if it was small and miniscule) we'd ban em. And I know that this still goes on now. I don't think this happens all the time, or even some of the time, but more than it should.

~My problems with the staff in regards to me~

They demodded me? Meh, I kinda deserved it. I looked over some of things I did on PC and realized that I was acting really immature. I frankly think I could have been bumped down to S-mod as I'm way overqualified for THAT position seeing as I know the rules just as good (if not better) than mostly any other mod...I know the forums, I know what needs to be done. I don't like admining...I really don't...But demodding me is not what set me off

It was banning me. They shouldn't have banned me, period. My rule break? They never happened. I used the banning example up above about finding any little miniscule reason for me being banned, and they went with it. What got me even madder is the fact that before I even logged into PC to find out I was banned, every higher staff had me blocked on MSN, making it IMPOSSIBLE for me to even try and fight for my side. I was excommunicated from PC, and I couldn't even ask why. When I finally DID confront the person who banned me (Kylie) I tried really hard to settle my case with her, but she wouldn't have it.

That's as far as I wanna go with my personal banning on PC...but if Erica or Andy or Jorge or anybody are reading this...yeah...we should chat

[Haruki Hanai]

The staff can certainly delete the Staff Feedback flaming, but why keep the thread going if people just continue it, Dakota? We're open to feedback about the staff via PM, where the channels of feedback are in a closed discussion, but the thread is open and often, there's more cases of flamebait lying around, or someone just coming up and trying to flame the staff openly. We don't want that. ^^;;

[Innocence]

It was banning me. They shouldn't have banned me, period. My rule break? They never happened. I used the banning example up above about finding any little miniscule reason for me being banned, and they went with it. What got me even madder is the fact that before I even logged into PC to find out I was banned, every higher staff had me blocked on MSN, making it IMPOSSIBLE for me to even try and fight for my side. I was excommunicated from PC, and I couldn't even ask why. When I finally DID confront the person who banned me (Kylie) I tried really hard to settle my case with her, but she wouldn't have it.
Umm, Sorry to say this, but do you REALLY think ur 100% innocent? Even I remember manland.(Sorry to andy for bringing it up again) I don't really want to turn this into a flame war, but you can't really think you've done only 1 thing worng. I mean, there were other things.

[Haruki Hanai]

It's an old offense, and he's not innocent, but it doesn't need to be counted or brought up here.

Dakota, I think the rulebreak was about staff member harassment, and we also counted the warnings you accumulated as a Praetor.


The only thing about Dakota being banned was that, and the other warnings taken into account. The Man's Land incident doesn't have much to do with this right now, though.

[Innocence]

It was still a reasonable offence though? I mean, i was just mentioning one.

[Haruki Hanai]

Max, I'm going to further elaborate what I mean by overall accusations.
Stuff should get a little less strict, or else soon PC will become like SPPf..
Moderators shouldn't get annoyed with members so easy, just some time back someone said that they get annoyed by reports.. =P Look at what I've highlighted. Those are accusations, or simply just unbacked opinion. That SPPF comment, for example, was highly uncalled for, and you're knocking on the staff as a whole, including the almost-30 moderators on the community.

Heh, I saw it. My point was exactly, that YOU DON'T LISTEN TO US, so how can we work together? I'll give my say.
First of all, the staff have their own problems to deal with. Next, we try to listen (yes, while many deny it, we try to listen). We don't listen when we're flamed at, nor do we show any signs of something being achieved if the staff do not agree to it as a whole. The staff work their time, trying to give members the best forum experience available. It just does not work if the members continue to fight with us.

Meh... they probably take our posts as flames too just from minor little things. Flamebait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamebait).

See? That IS one of the things I'm trying to prove. And well, we're not rebelling either, just pointing out the little its and bits of wrong things in the ways of the moderators. This would be the reason this conversation goes on and on, revolving over nothing. It's not Dakota's flamebait (which yours is much worse). It's only this, and it is rebelliousness. We do not wish for these problems to be discussed publicly, mainly because it has sourced into a flamewar. That is why we're not allowing a Staff Feedback thread, or let alone any Staff Feedback discussions publicly.

And that is the point we're trying to raise in this conversation.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

What you're sayin'... you want all the flame wars done in PMs and IMs? Fine then.. if talking to ya'll will get me banned, wheee.

As of now, I'm keeping quiet until I figure out why Dakota was banned.. (gotta PM...). If its basically that you banned him without the three warning thing, its unfair.
Unless, that you have already found three warn reasons though.

[John Denver]

Max don't get banned over something dumb like this...You've been somewhat decent this whole time without having to resort to ridiculous extremes, so stay cool.

Er-hem...

Seeing as none of the higher staff want to address me about this on msn or aim...I'll just say it here then ;_;

Umm, Sorry to say this, but do you REALLY think ur 100% innocent? Even I remember manland.(Sorry to andy for bringing it up again) I don't really want to turn this into a flame war, but you can't really think you've done only 1 thing worng. I mean, there were other things.

Missingo, you really didn't add to this debate at all by posting that. First off, you don't side for anything, you're basically just saying "Do you think you're right? You aren't!" and leaving it at that

Secondly, Man land had nothing to do with anything. Did I start manland (which seriously wasn't that bad of a convo at all...sex was never mentioned) in the DCC? yeah...But any higher staff knows that there have been FAR worse convos in the DCC that went completely unregarded. Did I break any rules worthy of banning? I couldn't have...do you know why I couldn't have?

Reason 1. Several members posted alongside with me, laughing and encouraging the conversation with me...none of them (that I know of) got in trouble over this manland convo.

Reason 2. Higher staff (3 if I remember correctly) and several other mods posted alonside with me, laughing and encouraging the conversation with me. None of them (that I know of) got in trouble. Yet you (missingo) think I'm the only one in that episode that "broke the rules" and that merits me for a ban? I think you're blowing things out of proportion without thoroughly thinking the facts through.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah, now onto Jakes comment. I commend you, for being one of the only higher staff to maturely tell me why I was banned.

Dakota, I think the rulebreak was about staff member harassment, and we also counted the warnings you accumulated as a Praetor.

I want to begin by saying...You "think" it was about harassment? You sound sort of uncertain, like you don't know the whole story. Well...I know exactly what harassment you're talking about, and it was this.

I called the staff slow.

That's it! You won't find the posts either, cause they've been supposedly "deleted." But there were about 2-4 threads a week before I was banned that needed to be moved/locked becuase they were in the wrong spot, or obviously spam. I left a comment saying the mods are being slow and that this should move this to X forum. That is, basically what I did.

No one seems to bring this other fact up, but including to calling you guys slow, I told the members where they needed to go and even posted links! I know I was being an annoying little snot, but I never...ever, ever broke the rules. Not even once. Let alone 3 times, which is (if I remember correctly) the amount needed to consider banning someone according to the mod rules Kwesi set up.

You also say that offenses that happened while I was praetor counted toward my ban. And I would like to know...what offenses did I have while I was praetor that were against the rules and worthy of a ban? The only thing I ever did was call you guys slow.

Phew...lemme see what Kylie said.

The behaviour you showed was inappropriate. You were a Praetor at the time you managed to get the DCC closed for your actions. That kind of stuff is just not on. @_@; You can't justify that kind of behaviour. Threatening to mass-spam... bashing mods [mods count as members <_< We all are members. Some just have mod powers]... and so forth.

You talk as if it was single handedly me that got the DCC closed (and reopened minutes later?). You ignore the several other members and staff that gleefully posted along with me. Jake himself even said that the DCC had nothing to do with my banning. My threaten to mass post a bunch of PM's about me and claire was

First off: A bluff. The pm's had long since been deleted even while I was talking. You can ask Kura if you want

Second off: It happened on MSN messenger, nullifying it's effects on me and PC.

I was mad for being demodded, so obviously I wanted to take it out on somebody. However, right after I cooled down, I dutyfully apologized to Dawson and Claire for the stupid threats I made. They forgave my and accepted my apology, but you don't seem to want to. And again, I never bashed mods...ever. I asked you to find the posts where I bashed mods. And your immediate response is "they were deleted." The posts never existed Kylie, you're purely making things up to ruin my favor.

Phew...ok so, I said I wouldn't talk about me being banned on here but I did cause I felt like I had to. Everyone was attacking me and I wasn't defending so I felt like I had to clear some things up and shake off people's negative thoughts of me. If you actually read this whole big long post, WOOT for you!

[Haruki Hanai]

What does it help? You're not on AIM anyway. O_o;

And besides, I'm off talking at you, but that's hardly because I've given up. Nope, fair to say you aren't really the problem.

What you're sayin'... you want all the flame wars done in PMs and IMs? Fine then.. if talking to ya'll will get me banned, wheee.
And I suppose you're going to act like an idiot until something that satisfies you gets done? Shame on you.

Next, I don't want to fight with you, Dakota, but might I remind that warnings carry over from a demotion use? And I'm pointing at you, Max, for bringing that up.

Here's my thought:
Unless you are a staff member, do not try to justify how the staff works.

Oh, and Dakota, I'm sure you remember the banning system establishment? We're hoping to make things fairer by trying to set it in stone.

[Kurosaki]

[/B]Oh, and Dakota, I'm sure you remember the banning system establishment? We're hoping to make things fairer by trying to set it in stone.
But at the rate we work it could take 3-5 more weeks, Jake. XD

[John Denver]

Heh, David, at the rate you guys work...I'll be here another 20 years...nyar nyar nyar

Oh, and Dakota, I'm sure you remember the banning system establishment? We're hoping to make things fairer by trying to set it in stone.

What does that mean?

[Kurosaki]

I won't be around that long, I can guarantee that much, XD

The thread where we were trying to make a good banning system, remember? Oo

[John Denver]

The thread where we were trying to make a good banning system, remember? Oo

Oh that...man, everyone had a different opinion. One wanted it 3 warnings and another wanted it to 5...I think I said we should just flippin do it when we feel it in our gut! Gut! You guys STILL haven't decided yet? Geez...

[Haruki Hanai]

Well we're trying to work it all out without any fights.

[Kylie-chan]

Dakota, sex was mentioned... it was hidden by a very thin metaphor, but it was glaringly obvious what it meant.

And Dakota, not only did you have the warnings, but it was plain to see you needed a ban. So you're just labelling yourself a hypocrite.

[Supreme Edgeboy Max]

Oooohh, yeah. Shame on me. I already said I'd keep quiet for a while. =P

Basically, Dakota got into trouble for things a lot of other people did... that's not fair.
Next up, being banned without the three warns is NOT fair either.
Next on that then, uh.... I didn't really get what you meant there, about the thing I brought up... ~_~;;
And lastly, a good new banning system is much appreciated by me at least.. a new one should be good for everyone.

And about the moderators being slow..