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Kalylia
May 28th, 2006, 06:03 AM
All right, first thing's first here. I DO NOT intend this to become a huge religion debate over who's right, who's wrong, and who's sinning and going to hell. This is not a place to flame each other for their views, as, obviously, that's against the rules.

I have set up this thread in the efforts to teach people about different religions and the views therein. All religious views are welcome, so long as you don't start stuffing your views down other people's throats. I have created this place in order to achieve a bit of piece between us here on PC on the touchy topic of religion.

So come, express your views. But, be forewarned, I have stated explicitly that I do not intend this to become an all-out-war zone. I have no problems requesting the closure of my own thread.

I, personally, grew up as a Lutheran Christian. Most of my family is Lutheran, but we do have a large group of Catholics in our family as well. Personally, my views blend together most of the religions. Basically, I believe in the cores of all religions, that we are to be good to other's around us and attempt to better the world and our lives.

Zone
May 28th, 2006, 06:44 AM
I am an atheist. My parents are Christians, and I've gone to church three times in my life, when I was between the ages 9 and 10. I became an atheist when I heard good points about it from my sister, from the internet and from a book (The End of Faith).

Kalylia
May 28th, 2006, 06:48 AM
Do you mind if I ask what brought you to a conclusion that no higher being exsists over us?

Zone
May 28th, 2006, 06:54 AM
Do you mind if I ask what brought you to a conclusion that no higher being exsists over us?

It just doesn't really make sense. How was it always there, and why? Lots of religions have beliefs that contradict themselves as well. For example, lots of religions believe in a god that is omnipotent and omnibenevolent (can do anything and is completely against evil), which means the god can and wants to destroy evil. Yet, there is still evil in the world. See "problem of evil" on Wikipedia for more information on this.

~Ozy~
May 28th, 2006, 07:06 AM
It is an interesting paradox, I admit, and I do believe that God is an influence in our world, but only to a certain degree. He can show us our path, but not guide us down it. There comes a point when He respects the sentience and free will of His creation.

Of course, that refers to the supernatural or purely religous aspects of it. From a philosophical point of view, I believe moreover in compassiona and equatability. No benevolent God would bring a child into this world already condemned to Hell, that is a matter of the choices made throughout life, through being indecent, cruel, or any manner of other things, but NOT your religion.

Lord Mike
May 28th, 2006, 07:11 AM
My uncle is Muslim. One of my friend's mother is Jewish.

Hindus, about 850 million currently living in India, believe in reincarnation.

I'm sort of Christian and the rule "If you lead a good life, you go to heaven." is in effect with this religion. I hope that happens to me.

Kalylia
May 28th, 2006, 07:19 AM
"The problem with evil" as has been mentioned, is not a problem. In my learnings, I have found that God does not "ward off all evil" or "destroy all those who are evil". He allows evil things to happen to people. Really, they are tests of character. A small price to pay for an eternal life in heaven or joining Dharma or wherever you would like it.

I, too, believe that God has condemned no one to an eternity in hell. Hell is a punishment set for those who ignore God's urgings to follow the right path and love thy neighbors.

(And for future reference, I shall always refer to the sentinant being as "God" as that is what I am used to. This does not mean that I dennounce any belief in Allah or the like. Thank you.)

Drummershuff
May 28th, 2006, 07:24 AM
I am also an atheist. My family is mainly Christian, but I changed when I was about 11. They respect my views on it, and I respect there’s..

Lord Mike
May 28th, 2006, 07:26 AM
That's the thing about religion. Even if you don't want to, you should always respect other people's religious views.

Dawg 2005
May 28th, 2006, 07:53 AM
I'm an atheist. My mom is Catholic and my dad is... I think Christain.

My family isn't very religious, so we don't do that kind of stuff like pray, go to church, etc.

Flabébé
May 28th, 2006, 08:04 AM
I'm sort of Christian and the rule "If you lead a good life, you go to heaven." is in effect with this religion. I hope that happens to me.

I am Christain and the rule If you lead a good life, you go to heaven isn't in effect with the CHristian religion. The only way you go to heaven is if you believe in your heart and speak with your mouth the Jesus did walk this Earth and he did die on the Cross for you. Its not oh I will be nice and courteus to people and go to heaven. Its not how it works.

~Ozy~
May 28th, 2006, 09:13 AM
Again, no benevolent God would bring a child into this world already condemned. So, what of the boy born in deeply rural Vietnam or Laos or Indonesia, or the indigenous tribes of South America who goes his entire life without hearing of Christianity but is still a good, moral person.

Lord Mike
May 28th, 2006, 09:30 AM
Its always important to respect other religions. Obviously some people, Adolf Hitler especially, don't show respect. You should even if you're an athiest.

Mario The World Champion
May 28th, 2006, 10:03 AM
I'd rather keep my distance over any kind of religion.

Sure, it helps some people in their lives, but I fear the people that take their religion a little TOO seriously by commiting horriffic acts against their own children or kill innocent people and themselves because their own God told them that it was the right thing to do.

Honestly, I think there is no God. All the bad things that say he did to people, are just freak accidents.

Red530
May 28th, 2006, 10:35 AM
I was and am rasied as a Roman Catholic.

Let me tell you, the Catholic Church is messed up. Please note that I have nothing against the belief, just the people that are in the Church.


Something happened with me and some scholarship I was supposed to be on graduation night, last night.

A mother of one of the students from our class called my family, and asked if I was going to a Catholic school. My father said, "No, he's going to a Christian school."
"Oh, so he doesn't get the award." she said, and hung up.

We later learned that the award was a scholarship. The scholarship was given to the top girl (who was Marina *claps*) and the top boy. The top boy is me, but I didn't get it JUST BECAUSE I'm not going to a Catholic school.

I'm sorry if I sound selfish, but me complaining doesn't have to do with the matter of the money, just the recognition.
So instead, the scholarship was given to the second-greatest boy, who WAS going to a Catholic school next.

It's all religion and belief...
When saying this, I'm speaking out for all the other kids that are denied because of their Religion, and myself.

It's just not fair.
But I'm happy for my friend, Justin, who got the scholarship. *shrugs*



And I notice that they worship Jesus more than God or Mary. I worship Jesus greatly, but don't you think that he would want people to worship his God and his Mother?
I greatly praise Mary. If it wasn't for her, there would have never been a Christ or a carrying on of the worship of God.


And then The Da Vinci Code controversy comes along. I read the book, and I loved it.
I don't see anything wrong with Jesus Christ marrying. *shrugs*


But yes...the Catholic Church is messed up a lot.



When it comes to Heaven and Hell, I believe that those that are good go to Heaven, and I mean EVERYBODY THAT IS GOOD, including Muslims, Buddhists, etc.
Hell to me is a place where the bad go, of course. Not only the bad Christians, but all that were bad in their first part of their life. (To me life is what you live on Earth AND what you live after you die.)
I don't believe in "You don't believe in Christ as your savior, so you're going to Hell."

I just believe that those that are good people go to Heaven, whatever religion they worship.


And Zone, you don't believe in ANYTHING?

Let's talk about God, Zone. Tell us exactly why you don't believe in God. I will not bash you, I promise, and nobody else shoud bash you.

Zelos
May 28th, 2006, 10:47 AM
I'm a Christian. I pretty much believe everything that Aang said. If you confess that Jesus died on the cross for you and believe in him that you will go to Heaven. Being good or nice isn't going to get you there~

Whiplash
May 28th, 2006, 11:18 AM
I was christianed but have never gone to church and Im now an atheist and will stay like that.

Allstories
May 28th, 2006, 11:18 AM
I am an atheist because I find the overwhelming evidence of evolution and the like contradictory to intelligent design.

[Technya]
May 28th, 2006, 11:19 AM
I was born a Catholic but changed my views some two years earlier. I now follow the Wiccan Religion. No, my family does not know about it because they are not as open minded as other people but that's all right. I respect their points of view nonetheless.

What made me change my mind on the religion? Let's just say I was and am very angry at the people who run it. I have absolutely nothing against the religion itself. I respect all religions whatever they may be.

Bomberman
May 28th, 2006, 12:56 PM
Newsflash!
There is no scientific law that states that an all-knowing, all-powerful being has been here since the beginning of time cannot be possible.

Lord Mike
May 28th, 2006, 01:17 PM
That's because in schools they probably don't want religious beliefs involved in science.

parallelzero
May 28th, 2006, 01:28 PM
Personally, I don't really follow any particular religion. Well, at least not that I'm aware of, as my knowledge of the various religions is very limited. To me, life is life. Stuff happens, that's what I follow.

Zone
May 28th, 2006, 02:03 PM
And Zone, you don't believe in ANYTHING?

Let's talk about God, Zone. Tell us exactly why you don't believe in God. I will not bash you, I promise, and nobody else shoud bash you.

Allstorie's reason is one of mine. Another, as I stated in another topic, is this: The thought that you go to a nice place (Heaven, reincarnation, etc.) when you die was created to rid people's fear of death. Afterlife beliefs sprouted into religion.

Drifblim
May 28th, 2006, 02:54 PM
Although I attend a Presbyterian church, I've rarely ever set store by religion for answers.

I'm also generally ashamed of what power religion seems to give people these days. If you thought the Roman Catholic Church was bad enough, giving cards to certify forgiveness and assigning a proxy to represent God but having him turn out to be the equivalent of a king — John XII, who provoked war between Italy and Germany, thus creating the Holy Roman Empire that existed until the 1600s, comes to mind — you should take a look at televangelists.
Jerry Falwell called the Metropolitan Community chuches 'a vile and Satanic system' for their gay sympathies. A journalist found this on an interview tape and Falwell promised him $5000 if he could prove it. When the journalist did, Falwell didn't pay, and the resulting lawsuit caused massive embarassment for him.
Pat Robertson, who has several books on intimacy with God to his name, was the founder of American Centre for Law and Justice as well as the conservative media network CBN, and currently hosts CBN's key show 'The 700 Club'. He also led a presidential campaign to eliminate corporations such as Amtrak and the Department of Education, as well as ban all pornography, and because of his speech at New Orleans, George H W Bush became president in 1988. Despite this guise of respect, he also was hotheaded. He claimed that as a minister he diverted Hurricane Gloria from Virginia Beach, CBN's headquarters, he made gays and the ACLU shoulder inherent blame for the 11 September 2001 attacks, called for the assassination of Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez, and dismissed Ariel Sharon's stroke as divine wrath.
Tammy Faye and Jim Bakker were the overlords of televangelist corruption. Their Praise The Lord deposit-taking programme named fake charities as recipients of donation money and really went to the construction of a doomed theme park in South Carolina that would serve as the citadel for PTL, a $3.7 million air-conditioned doghouse, and a $250,000 agreement for Playboy playmate and church secretary Jessica Hahn to keep quiet about having sex with Bakker. Bakker served seven years out of a 45-year sentence imposed by Robert 'Maximum Bob' Potter, one of the strictest federal judges known.
Charles Coughlin was a broadcaster during the Great Depression that would use scare tactics to keep voters for voting in Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Roman Catholic officials pulled the plug on him in 1940.
In 1987, Oral Roberts asked for $8 million on television, lest God 'call him home', to power a fundraiser.
Jimmy Swaggart was common at brothels in the South in the 1980s, and he once said he was forced by God to admit his sin on public television. He continued to do it nonetheless.
James Kennedy pushed for a constitutional revise to force federal judges to 'recognise God as the sovereign source of law'.
Elijah Muhammad, the leader of the Black Muslim movement, was known to frequent brothels in Chicago. These scandals damaged the system so much that his most popular preacher, Malcolm X, separated from him and formed his own Muslim sect. When he went on the hajj to Mecca, he developed ideas that recognised whites as equals to blacks, those that the Black Muslim movement had opposed and eventually led to his assaassination in 1965.If you think about this a little, you'll find that their use of religion to enrich themselves in these scandalous ways violates the third commandment of what they're trying to enforce: 'You shall not misuse the name of the Lord.'

Red530
May 28th, 2006, 03:17 PM
What made me change my mind on the religion? Let's just say I was and am very angry at the people who run it. I have absolutely nothing against the religion itself. I respect all religions whatever they may be.

Then you don't really have a good reason for converting.
If I were to convert, then I would convert because of the belief and not the people running the church.



Newsflash!
There is no scientific law that states that an all-knowing, all-powerful being has been here since the beginning of time cannot be possible.

If there was a Big Bang, then what created the Big Bang?



Now, I don't doubt the Big Bang. I truly believe in Evolution. I'm a Catholic, but I completely believe that the Bible was made my humans, people INSPIRED by their religion and belief in God.
But Adam and Eve? Who was there to see it?



Allstorie's reason is one of mine. Another, as I stated in another topic, is this: The thought that you go to a nice place (Heaven, reincarnation, etc.) when you die was created to rid people's fear of death. Afterlife beliefs sprouted into religion.

But why do you doubt an afterlife? The afterlife was and is not an idea created by people. I have dreamt of myself in the shoes of other people. Who knows, this life I could be living may be my 100th.
Many people have had dreams of older times. My uncle had a dream that he was at the opening of the Statue of Liberty. o_0

But I don't an afterlife. My family has seen the spirits of MANY relatives. With that evidence I can not doubt an afterlife.


I was christianed but have never gone to church and Im now an atheist and will stay like that.

I don't go to church at all...unless it's something I HAVE to go to for school or relatives or Christmas. But no, I don't go to church. I don't believe in it.



That's because in schools they probably don't want religious beliefs involved in science.
In Science class, we were watching a video on volcanoes. On one part of the video, they talked about Moses, and the ocean that he "split apart." They said that it was created my volcanic activity.
My teacher interrupts and says, "You see? They're atheists."

Why can't it be possible that it was volcanic activity? Maybe God motivated the volcanic activity? Everything has life. All life is created from God, but the life-form has choices: bad or good. Today, they're mostly bad. -_-

Lord Mike
May 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM
You can never be too sure. If that found out all the mysteries of the past, then all of this Moses, Allah and Muhammad, Budda stuff wouldn't be just a theory or belief.

[Technya]
May 28th, 2006, 08:39 PM
Then you don't really have a good reason for converting.
If I were to convert, then I would convert because of the belief and not the people running the church.
Maybe not for you. That is just one reason for me to convert I have many but I'm not going to explain them, I see no reason why I should.
But I strongly believe in this religion, even more than the previous one.

♥RanaRocket!☆
May 29th, 2006, 12:51 AM
my family is sorta weird when it comes to religion, my dads atheist and my siste and mum are chatholics, although they dont go to church.
Me? i sorta follow any sayings i hear, or ones that come to me. My personal favorite is Desidrata.
I cant understand why people find it so hard to let other people get on with their belifs, if someone cant understand this, then they should just keep quiet about what they think of that other person/ group of people, and do what they think is right.
At the moment, the 'war on terror' E.c.t is getting atme, its so... strange that we cant say:
"this is what you belive, this is what i belive, so what, its different. We're never going to know or sure whos right and whos wrong, so stuff arguing and lets get on with our lives."

Zone
May 29th, 2006, 03:26 AM
But why do you doubt an afterlife? The afterlife was and is not an idea created by people. I have dreamt of myself in the shoes of other people. Who knows, this life I could be living may be my 100th.
Many people have had dreams of older times. My uncle had a dream that he was at the opening of the Statue of Liberty. o_0

But I don't an afterlife. My family has seen the spirits of MANY relatives. With that evidence I can not doubt an afterlife.

Dreams are not related to the afterlife. And by seen the spirits, do you mean seen ghosts?

Drummershuff
May 29th, 2006, 03:40 AM
That's the thing about religion. Even if you don't want to, you should always respect other people's religious views.

I agree, and that is what I do.

~Ozy~
May 29th, 2006, 06:43 AM
You can never be too sure. If that found out all the mysteries of the past, then all of this Moses, Allah and Muhammad, Budda stuff wouldn't be just a theiry or belief.

But they're not theories. The persons of Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Mohammed are documented historical figures. Moses is the most conjectural, Buddah lived roughly 500 BCE. Buddhism also has less supernatural belief. Like many Eastern religons, it's less a means of salvation and more a way of looking at the world to improve your own condition. Jesus, obviously, lived around th time of 0 CE ant there are historical records aside from the Bible proving, at the least, his existance. Finally, Mohammed found the Muslim religion in 632 CE.

Consequently, the major figures of the religions mentioned are indeed, historical figures and their religions, be they false or true in you mind have influenced the shape of the modern world for both ill and good. For something as unsubstantiated as a "belief," that is amazignly powerful.

bna_li
May 29th, 2006, 06:48 AM
Allstorie's reason is one of mine. Another, as I stated in another topic, is this: The thought that you go to a nice place (Heaven, reincarnation, etc.) when you die was created to rid people's fear of death. Afterlife beliefs sprouted into religion.
Heaven And Hell

If that be the case, why create a Hell? If people wanted something to believe in, they might as well just have made up the story of a Heaven, without there being a hell. That way, you could do whatever you pleased, not care where you go knowing that in the end, you would be happy.

Reincarnation

Now we're talking about reincarnation. You say reincarnation is a reason for us to not be afraid of death. Have you heard that you can be reincarnated as a bug? Who would want to be a bug?

Your theories simply do not stand.

Lord Mike
May 29th, 2006, 07:35 AM
I'm still Christian. I'm debating whether it should be the religion for the rest of my life.

Allstories
May 29th, 2006, 09:56 AM
If that be the case, why create a Hell? If people wanted something to believe in, they might as well just have made up the story of a Heaven, without there being a hell. That way, you could do whatever you pleased,

Looks like you answered your own question there, dude.

Zone
May 29th, 2006, 12:20 PM
Heaven And Hell

If that be the case, why create a Hell? If people wanted something to believe in, they might as well just have made up the story of a Heaven, without there being a hell. That way, you could do whatever you pleased, not care where you go knowing that in the end, you would be happy.

Reincarnation

Now we're talking about reincarnation. You say reincarnation is a reason for us to not be afraid of death. Have you heard that you can be reincarnated as a bug? Who would want to be a bug?

Your theories simply do not stand.

If you were a bug, at least you would still be alive. Also, you'd die soon and become another organism, unless it was a religion that believes that you can only become a human in reincarnation.

Lord Mike
May 29th, 2006, 12:29 PM
Religion has been a conflict throughout the years. Just look at what Hitler did. He and the Nazis tortured 11 million people to death, most of them but because they were Jewish.

Zone
May 29th, 2006, 12:55 PM
Religion has been a conflict throughout the years. Just look at what Hitler did. He and the Nazis tortured 11 million people to death, most of them but because they were Jewish.

Yes. Would a peace-loving god really allow conflicts such as this to happen?

Lord Mike
May 29th, 2006, 12:59 PM
It depends if you believe in miracles or not. If you do, then you probably think God will make sure nothing happens to you. If you don't, you probably support science.

~Ozy~
May 29th, 2006, 02:45 PM
Yes. Would a peace-loving god really allow conflicts such as this to happen?

Under deistic beliefs, yes He would. Indeed, under the beilef systems of the Islamic and Christian faiths, He would as well.

DarkFenris
May 29th, 2006, 03:39 PM
i think i was born a christian but i dont believe in him. my uncle and auntie are true christians and they go to church once a week. i see my self as Wiccan and believe in the Goddess of the moon and other such beings of high power in the Wiccan religion, if it is that.

Gentleman J
May 29th, 2006, 04:25 PM
Finally I can link now. :D Quote:
Originally Posted by Zone
Yes. Would a peace-loving god really allow conflicts such as this to happen?

So why doesn't God make everyone into perfect beings and allow them all into heaven? It would actually be more cruel if God were to do this, since many people prefer hell to the alternative (complete submission to God). All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy.
Check this out http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html

Allstories
May 29th, 2006, 04:48 PM
I don't understand. Why would god want to make individuals with the capacity of wanting to go to hell? What exactly is god's motive here?

Hahaha, even if you do believe in god, you've got to admit that that entire website is utter nonsense and outrageously biased. Blah, blah, blah. We don't know EVERYTHING. So we should base all our beliefs on NOTHING. Brilliant logic.

Amy-chan
May 29th, 2006, 05:12 PM
I'm a weird mixed-breed when it comes to religion. Don't ask. o_o;

Religion, such a debatable, contradictory subject... People have argued over it, people have died over it, people have even killed over it. But when it comes down to it...would anyone anybody believes in(Jesus, God, Buddha, etc., etc.) be happy about the fights and wars supposedly staged on their behalf? It seems criminal to try to justify one's violent actions by saying that one was simply acting for the sake of their religion. I hope that someday people of all beliefs will be able to tolerate and live in peace with each other, rather than being at each other's throats just because their creation stories and whatnot disagree.

I don't know, just a thought. Don't shoot me. ._.;

~Ozy~
May 29th, 2006, 05:34 PM
I don't understand. Why would god want to make individuals with the capacity of wanting to go to hell? What exactly is god's motive here?

In religious philosophy, not the capacity of wanting to go to hell, but the capacity for concious, free thought and choice. Nor is this a new idea, presented as a contrast to arguements as to the freedom of choice in the world that leads to negative circumstances. Indeed, much of Elizibethan English religious thought focused on similar questions, and the answer was similar. Indeed, the capacity for learning and growth, and of course, the choice that comes with it was the factor that set humanity above the animal kingdom and our one superiority of our race over the perfection of angels.

To say that God cannot have created us as flawed because we would defy His creation is indeed contridictory to Judeo-Christian religious thought, as God already had a perfect creation in Heaven and His angels.

Zelos
May 29th, 2006, 05:35 PM
I don't understand. Why would god want to make individuals with the capacity of wanting to go to hell? What exactly is God's motive here?

Hahaha, even if you do believe in God, you've got to admit that that entire website is utter nonsense and outrageously biased. Blah, blah, blah. We don't know EVERYTHING. So we should base all our beliefs on NOTHING. Brilliant logic.

He didn't create people like that, He gave you a choice. You can either embrace Him and go to Heaven or reject him and go to Hell. He doesn't want to be with Him forever if that's not what you want, that's why Hell and and the devil exist.

bna_li
May 29th, 2006, 05:39 PM
So what you're saying is that bugs lead happy lives?... OK.........

Yes. Would a peace-loving god really allow conflicts such as this to happen?
God is not peace-loving. You make that assumption. He actually allowed Israel to go to war many times, and made other countries war against Israel when they were forgetting him. He loves justice, and sometimes there must be war for there to be justice.

On a side note...
You could never go to Heaven if God never chose for you to. That's what it means to be elect.
I disagree with people saying that you can make the choice. If God didn't choose for you to go to Heaven, you could never make that choice yourself.

Red530
May 29th, 2006, 05:54 PM
Dreams are not related to the afterlife. And by seen the spirits, do you mean seen ghosts?


There is a great difference between spirits and ghosts.

I mean spirits.


Spirits are the dead that visit.
Ghosts are the dead that linger on Earth, and feel the need to complete a mission that was not done when they were living their first part of life.

bna_li
May 29th, 2006, 05:55 PM
What you have said sounds like Buddhism. I'm not really sure what it is, but it sounds like what my chinese buddhist friends used to say.

Red530
May 29th, 2006, 05:57 PM
They're just my thoughts.

I DO like the Buddhist ideas though.

bna_li
May 29th, 2006, 05:59 PM
Can't say the same here. I was raised as a Christian, but I'm becoming bitter.

Red530
May 29th, 2006, 06:04 PM
The only problem with Christianity, Catholicism, etc. (esp Catholicism) are the people, that's all.

bna_li
May 29th, 2006, 06:06 PM
See, that's where I disagree with you again. You could say that for any religon.

McGraw
May 29th, 2006, 07:09 PM
I am athiest. Though I believe it possible that a supernatural power exists, it is highly improbable. I am open minded, but you will not budge me in a science versus religion debate without reliable evidence. There is nothing of substance behind any religion in my opinion and as a whole, they only highlight human inadequacies. We are top of the food chain with nothing to fear, except death. Further, the human mind cannot easily grasp the idea that there may be nothing after death, in the same way we cannot easily understand infinity. It is no surprise to me that all religions teach of an existence after death; we want the comfort of knowing there is something to cling on to, we want to know that our lives are not futile.

With that out of the way, may I suggest an alternative solution to the evil dilemma; that the higher power cannot differentiate between good and evil, because neither exists. In the purest sense, both concepts are an illusion, and dependent on perspective. For good and evil to exist, there needs to be a right and a wrong. What is right and what is wrong? Strip away the social conditioning, and there is only opinion; consensus proves nothing.

Evil is synonymous with selfishness and is nature in its most absolute and empirical terms. It is therefore entirely self justified unless the perpetrator experiences a net loss of satisfaction/status/material. If so, (s)he is merely acting irrationally. In this way, even the most atrocious crimes can be contraversially "justified". For example, one of the Third Reich's major aims was to create more Lebensraum (living space) for Germans; can it not be argued that genocide is an extreme form of competition and natural selection? Comparable in concept to a lioness killing a leopard.

I digress somewhat... but my point remains; if evil does not exist, the supernatural entity cannot have an agenda against it.

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 07:40 AM
The only problem with Christianity, Catholicism, etc. (esp Catholicism) are the people, that's all.

You can't let other people get in the way of your belief though.

Zone
May 30th, 2006, 09:43 AM
So what you're saying is that bugs lead happy lives?... OK.........


God is not peace-loving. You make that assumption. He actually allowed Israel to go to war many times, and made other countries war against Israel when they were forgetting him. He loves justice, and sometimes there must be war for there to be justice.

On a side note...
You could never go to Heaven if God never chose for you to. That's what it means to be elect.
I disagree with people saying that you can make the choice. If God didn't choose for you to go to Heaven, you could never make that choice yourself.

Why did he make them go into a war instead of getting another messiah or making more miracles? With a war, potential followers of him would be killed. Why would he want his followers to die? And how would a war bring back religion?

McGraw
May 30th, 2006, 09:53 AM
There is always the possibility that god has a disturbingly macabre sense of humour. We all know he is pretty narcissistic to have himself worshipped, so I wouldn't put it past him...

(Assuming he exists)

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 10:37 AM
I'm still debating whether God is real or not.

Flabébé
May 30th, 2006, 10:53 AM
Newsflash!
There is no scientific law that states that an all-knowing, all-powerful being has been here since the beginning of time cannot be possible.


I seen this and had to reply. Just because "science" doesn't ay it doesn't mean its not real. I mean heck they are proven science wrong everyday. Dont even ask. I will say now. They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?

Zone
May 30th, 2006, 10:56 AM
I seen this and had to reply. Just because "science" doesn't ay it doesn't mean its not real. I mean heck they are proven science wrong everyday. Dont even ask. I will say now. They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?

Link to where you heard about the spear holed dinosaur skull.

Kalylia
May 30th, 2006, 11:02 AM
Why did he make them go into a war instead of getting another messiah or making more miracles? With a war, potential followers of him would be killed. Why would he want his followers to die? And how would a war bring back religion?

God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

As a young child, I was taught that God doesn't "make" anything happen. God shows us the path we should be on, encourages us to follow it, but allows us our own choices. He does not pressure us to the point of total control. We are, in the end, responsible for our own actions and our own destines.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

McGraw
May 30th, 2006, 11:57 AM
They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?

I actually laughed out loud at this, for real. If that's the best you can do for your argument...

Science is prepared to hold its hands up and admit that it does not have all the answers... yet. The stuff that is proved wrong tend to be commonly accepted theories that are overruled with new evidence. Every so often there is also a scandal involving crooked scientists. Otherwise, scientific fact is by and large exactly that - fact; supported by physical, mathematical and scrutinised laboratory evidence.

A related article: guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1785654,00.html (evading the URL ruling for people with < 15 posts... worst rule ever)

Zone
May 30th, 2006, 03:23 PM
God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

As a young child, I was taught that God doesn't "make" anything happen. God shows us the path we should be on, encourages us to follow it, but allows us our own choices. He does not pressure us to the point of total control. We are, in the end, responsible for our own actions and our own destines.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

In bna_li's post, which is the one I was responding to, he stated that God allowed Israel to go to war multiple times to keep belief in him alive, and I responded with what you responded to.

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 04:00 PM
God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

As a young child, I was taught that God doesn't "make" anything happen. God shows us the path we should be on, encourages us to follow it, but allows us our own choices. He does not pressure us to the point of total control. We are, in the end, responsible for our own actions and our own destines.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.

That's a well-stated comment.

bna_li
May 30th, 2006, 10:09 PM
In bna_li's post, which is the one I was responding to, he stated that God allowed Israel to go to war multiple times to keep belief in him alive, and I responded with what you responded to.
What I was saying is that he allowed war so that they would turn their hearts back to him. When they were worshipping idols, that is exactly what he did. I may be alone in this one, but that is my belief.

When I said God does not love peace, I was going over board there. He does love peace. And justice. Those are a few of his attributes.

God has a few different wills. A specific will and a general will.

He does not will for war, but allows it to happen. For His purposes.

Envy
May 31st, 2006, 05:50 AM
I'm full of what I am, but I break the rules and don't really believe in my god. Least there's like many gods, there all the same to me . . . I mean they all have the same beliefs.

Lord Mike
May 31st, 2006, 06:28 AM
There are a lot of athiests here.

Envy
May 31st, 2006, 11:09 AM
There are a lot of athiests here.

LOL! Yea, true . . . um u double posted.

Kalylia
May 31st, 2006, 11:12 AM
YoMama, you may want to get rid of one of those posts. *smiles* They say exactly the same thing.

Zone, you have my apologies. The last thing I wanted to do was snap harshly and unnecissarilly.

bna_li, I'm afraid that I must disagree slightly with your post. Peace, Justice, and Love aren't "a few of His attributes", they are what makes him as a whole. God is, in essence, pure love. Being such, peace and justice are exactly what he wants all the time.

Lord Mike
May 31st, 2006, 11:17 AM
I deleted my duplicate.

I think Love is His most important attribute.

bna_li
May 31st, 2006, 11:38 AM
God doesn't want his followers to die. God has never once informed us that we need war to prove ourself to him or any of that. God doesn't want war, nor does he cause it.

I believe that everything that happens has been pre-determined from the beginning of time. You, me, and everyone else are here because he created us.

Need an example of how God doesn't want war? Check out Jesus, the Chrisian Messiah. Jesus was thought to be this huge war hero. He was the Messiah, and people believed he was going to lead the people in the ultimate war against their enemies, thus saving the religion.

But that isn't what Jesus was sent to do.

He lived the human life and experienced it as we do. He died to save us from our ultimate enemy, sin. God doesn't want us to go to war to solve our problems. If He wanted that, surely his one and only son would have been the greatest war hero of all time.
It should actually be the other way around. He is not a war hero BECAUSE he came to die for our sins. God wants us to see that He loves us so much, He sent His son to die for us. If he was a war hero, none of us would be going to Heaven. You can't have it both ways.

Now, if God loves us so much, why doesn't He let ALL of us go to heaven?

Aha.

Because He is a God of justice AS WELL, not just love.

In the Bible, God frequently brings the Israelites to battle. And He also says, Don't leave anything alive.

1 Samuel 15:3
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ***.

Kill everyone. And spare them not. Do you think that sounds like a God who despises war? No, those are the words of a just God.

Kalylia
May 31st, 2006, 12:21 PM
I never said that Jesus wasn't a war hero for any reason OTHER than the fact that he came to save us from sin. All I said was that the ancient Israelites believed him to be a war hero. That's who THEY thought the Messiah was. None of them understood, not even the deciples, until after the ressurection.

And yes, your bible verse does say that God wants war. But... I do believe that some verses overtake others. For instance...

The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Does that sound like God wants war? Those are His ACTUAL commandments, the things he TRULY wants us to do.

Another problem with your bible verse. It's from the Old Testament. Most of the Old Testament is no longer followed or believed to be true. The Christian religion is based on the teaching of the New Testament. At least, the modern Christian religion is. As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society.

That doesn't sound like the modern world to me.

The New Testament teaches love, forgiveness, and the true ways of God. The Old Testament is now mostly used for inspiration and good stories to show God's power for smaller children.

Even if we were to agree that your verse held as much weight as the commandment and that it being in the Old Testament meant nothing, I have many more verses that urge peace, love, and forgiveness.

Colossians - Chapter 3:12-17

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

The First letter of John - Chapter 4 :7-12

7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12. No-one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Romans - Chapter 13:10

10. Loves does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

And the best one of all...

Isaiah - Chapter 2:4

4.And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Most of those were taken from the Old Testament on the ground that if you don't like my argument on the Old Testament holding little water, I still prove a point.

If you need more, I'll be happy to oblige. *smiles*

Red530
May 31st, 2006, 02:34 PM
They find dinosaurs with spear hole through their skulls. now didn't science say that men weren't around when Dinosaurs were?



Sorries, but that example wouldn't prove Science wrong.

It's saying that Scientists find new things all the time. I beleive that there may have been beings at that time.

Emperor ServingSpoon
May 31st, 2006, 03:32 PM
Ummm.... If most of the old testament is no longer followed or believed to be true, why is it still in the Bible? We don't still follow the laws of Moses(as they were meant for the Israelites, not Christians in general), but I was pretty sure that the 10 commandments and majority of the old testament was still followed. I mean, Jesus did make reference to the books of the old testament every now and then, so it's pretty obvious He still thought them relevant...

As for the whole heaven/hell part from earlier... Think of it this way... If you don't believe in God, why would you want to go to heaven and live with Him, anyway? Everyone has sinned, and as such, being a nice person isn't enough. You need to believe in God and give up that sin to be able to recieve the gift of everlasting life. My particular denomination doesn't believe in Hell as some place where everyone burns eternally as a punishment, but rather as just what happens to the world after the second coming of Jesus. If you don't believe in God, you won't burn eternally. I mean, your body isn't even made for that kind of thing... You'll just won't live eternally. So it's more like you not getting the gift than you getting a punishment... Sort of...

As for McGraw's statements of no right and wrong... It may be situational at times, but really, if someone kills everyone you love, that's pretty wrong whether they think so or not. You can claim that there's no right and wrong, but then there is basically no meaning to ever doing anything good, and then you're likely to just end up rotting away in jail when you get caught for all the things you've done wrong that you have no problem with but every single other person in the human race does. Well... Unless that particular region has a death penalty...

McGraw
May 31st, 2006, 04:55 PM
It may be situational at times, but really, if someone kills everyone you love, that's pretty wrong

And I agree with you entirely; you probably won't find anyone who differs in opinion. However, the concepts are abstract and undefinible in precise terms. Therefore, do they exist? It's a philosophical point of view. Open your mind and watch it spin ^_^

bna_li
May 31st, 2006, 05:40 PM
I never said that Jesus wasn't a war hero for any reason OTHER than the fact that he came to save us from sin. All I said was that the ancient Israelites believed him to be a war hero. That's who THEY thought the Messiah was. None of them understood, not even the deciples, until after the ressurection.

And yes, your bible verse does say that God wants war. But... I do believe that some verses overtake others. For instance...

The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

"Love thy neighbor as thyself."

Does that sound like God wants war? Those are His ACTUAL commandments, the things he TRULY wants us to do.

Another problem with your bible verse. It's from the Old Testament. Most of the Old Testament is no longer followed or believed to be true. The Christian religion is based on the teaching of the New Testament. At least, the modern Christian religion is. As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society.

That doesn't sound like the modern world to me.

The New Testament teaches love, forgiveness, and the true ways of God. The Old Testament is now mostly used for inspiration and good stories to show God's power for smaller children.

Even if we were to agree that your verse held as much weight as the commandment and that it being in the Old Testament meant nothing, I have many more verses that urge peace, love, and forgiveness.

Colossians - Chapter 3:12-17

12. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
13. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
14. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.
15. Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.
16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.
17. And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

The First letter of John - Chapter 4 :7-12

7. Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8. Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
9. This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.
10. This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
11. Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
12. No-one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

Romans - Chapter 13:10

10. Loves does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

And the best one of all...

Isaiah - Chapter 2:4

4.And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Most of those were taken from the Old Testament on the ground that if you don't like my argument on the Old Testament holding little water, I still prove a point.

If you need more, I'll be happy to oblige. *smiles*
"The 10 commandments.

Much more important than every little inane verse in the bible.

One of those commandments states thus:

Love thy neighbour as thyself."

I'm sorry, but that is not an actual commandment. It was from the New Testament, when Jesus was speaking to the Pharisee. Not from the Ten Commandments.

You are exaggerating. As Emperor_ServingSpoon said, if it was not important, why would Jesus quote from it? More important, maybe, is if it is "no longer followed or believed to be true" why is it still a part of the Bible?

The Bible was put together by a few people. Can't remember the date.
Now, if they put the entire Old Testament in by error, why would the New Testament be any different?

Then, when you try to take something out of the Ten Commandments it becomes totally unimportant. Because THE OLD TESTAMENT is ALL/MOSTLY WRONG.

"As, if we were to follow the Old Testament, we'd still be killing wives and children for disobedience and never, EVER divorcing anyone. Blacks would still be enslaved and slavery in general would be encouraged. Anyone with a contagious disease would be sent away to live in solitude and shunned from society."

Show me some verses that prove that when wives or children disobeyed, they would be killed. As for divorce, I still don't believe in it, or encourage it.

You are preaching the New Gospel. Example: God loves everyone, and He won't want anyone to go to hell. Most of your texts are from the New Testament. But God was just that. He was also an angry God. He put His own people, the Israelites, to death, when they were disobeying. What you're trying to focus on, is that God is a merciful, loving God and won't really punish anyone who's wrong.

Now. Here is my version: God loves you. And, depending on His will, you might go to Hell or go to Heaven. He will hold you accountable for everything that you've said and thought and done when you are in heaven. He has a wonderful plan for your life, but that includes suffering, and pain.

If you asked someone to choose, do you think they'd pick mine?

No. Because it sounds too hard.

That is why people nowadays only emphasize the love.

But I think it's wrong.

Kalylia
May 31st, 2006, 05:54 PM
How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women:
Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were:

Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father.
Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband.
They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority.
They could not testify in court.
They could not appear in public venues.
They were not allowed to talk to strangers.
They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes.

(http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm source and specific verses)

And yes, I was slightly exaggerating. But most of the Old Testament isn't followed today because of the very harsh laws and views. Yes, it is still part of the bible. But that doesn't mean we live by every word of it.

As for the otehr topics I adressed, I will need to get home so I can consult my bible. I'll have better things for you on Friday.

~Ozy~
May 31st, 2006, 05:59 PM
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, “This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.” Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.

Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

This is in reference to a woman presented as a virgin as a wife who could not be proved as such.

In any case, I take it that these passages prove your point, my love?

bna_li
May 31st, 2006, 06:06 PM
How the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) generally viewed women:
Women's behavior was extremely limited in ancient times, much as the women of Afghanistan during the recent Taliban oppression. They were:

Unmarried women were not allowed to leave the home of their father.
Married women were not allowed to leave the home of their husband.
They were normally restricted to roles of little or no authority.
They could not testify in court.
They could not appear in public venues.
They were not allowed to talk to strangers.
They had to be doubly veiled when they left their homes.

(http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm source and specific verses)

And yes, I was slightly exaggerating. But most of the Old Testament isn't followed today because of the very harsh laws and views. Yes, it is still part of the bible. But that doesn't mean we live by every word of it.

As for the otehr topics I adressed, I will need to get home so I can consult my bible. I'll have better things for you on Friday.
Hm. So you agree... What do you have to say about that commandment not being a part of the ten?

Red530
May 31st, 2006, 07:34 PM
I thought it was one of the ten...There's something similar to it.

bna_li
May 31st, 2006, 10:06 PM
If it be so: Show me.....

Kalylia
June 1st, 2006, 07:30 AM
T'would be my pleasure, bna_li.

"God spoke all these words, saying: I am the Lord your God,who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery. Do not have any other gods before Me. Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship. Where My enemies are concerned, I keep in mind the sin of the fathers for [their] descendants, to the third and fourth [generation]. But for those who love Me and keep My commandments, I show love for thousands [of generations]. Do not take the name of God your Lord in vain. God will not allow the one who takes His name in vain to go unpunished. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. You can work during the six weekdays and do all your tasks. But the seventh day is a Sabbath to God your Lord. Do not do anything that constitutes work. [This includes] you, your son, your daughter, your slave, your maid, your animal, and the foreigner in your gates. It was during the six weekdays that God made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. God therefore blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Honor your father and mother. You will then live long on the land that God your Lord is giving you. Do not commit murder. Do not commit adultery. Do not steal. Do not testify as a false witness against your neighbor. Do not be envious of your neighbor's house. Do not be envious of your neighbor's wife, his slave, his maid, his ox, his donkey, or anything else that is your neighbor's."

The commandments talk about not saying false things about your neighbor and not envying anything that is his. In essence, we are to be nice to our neighbors.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" comes from Leviticus. (19:18 to be perfectly exact.) And Jesus repeatedly quotes it in the New Testament. Not an exact commandment, but definatly tying in with the ones specifically given us.

Red530
June 1st, 2006, 12:06 PM
Exactly.

9. "Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor"

and

10. "Thou shall not covet your neighbor's house..."

bna_li
June 1st, 2006, 03:57 PM
But it is still not an exact commandment. Be specific next time.

Red530
June 1st, 2006, 04:01 PM
Didn't I say similar? *points up* Yes, I did.

Kalylia
June 2nd, 2006, 11:31 AM
No, I believe bna_li was reffering to me. And as this is such, I apologize. There isn't much I can say other than that. I'm sorry for making a small error. It has been far too long since I've looked over my chatechism. Thank you for pointing out my error in the blatant manner you did.

I will take more time in the future to research my arguments.

Red530
June 2nd, 2006, 12:42 PM
Oh, sorry then. bna_li.


I tend to get tired of these religion topics...

bna_li
June 2nd, 2006, 03:23 PM
There is nothing more for me to say here...

Red530
June 3rd, 2006, 05:18 PM
Let's see....


Let's talk about one of the following Religion topics:


- Women priests
- Homosexuals
- Married Priests
- Bible (written BY GOD OR PEOPLE?)

Zone
June 3rd, 2006, 06:01 PM
Let's see....


Let's talk about one of the following Religion topics:


- Women priests
- Homosexuals
- Married Priests
- Bible (written BY GOD OR PEOPLE?)

I don't care about 1 or 3 because I'm not religious. Gay people and gay marriage is fine. The bible was written by people.

Lord Mike
June 4th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Let's see....


Let's talk about one of the following Religion topics:


- Women priests
- Homosexuals
- Married Priests
- Bible (written BY GOD OR PEOPLE?)

I'd rather not talk about number 2.

burny_2005
June 5th, 2006, 10:24 AM
I really dont believe the world started by adam or eve, because nowadays, doesnt reproduction in families usually result in disabled people?
If they did start the human race, surely we would all be messed up..

Lord Mike
June 5th, 2006, 11:52 AM
There are many theories of the past that are still yet to be sloved.

Red530
June 5th, 2006, 11:58 AM
That's why we're called brothers and sisters...But it IS a messed up theory.

But I don't believe in Adam and Eve, or Cain and Abel. Nobody was there to witness it.

Lord Mike
June 5th, 2006, 12:15 PM
People should be able to believe what they want without others interfering.

Allstories
June 5th, 2006, 12:17 PM
I really dont believe the world started by adam or eve, because nowadays, doesnt reproduction in families usually result in disabled people?
If they did start the human race, surely we would all be messed up..

Inbreeding, as far as I know, causes problems because of problematic traits that would otherwise be recessive. I wonder how that works if your genes are spawned from nothing.

Lord Mike
June 5th, 2006, 12:20 PM
I don't think that the "Adam and Eve" theory is true, but you never know.

I mean, I never heard of someone giving birth to Spanish, German, Native American, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, and Italian children. It doesn't really add up to me.

Red530
June 5th, 2006, 01:22 PM
Exactly...

Unless (if the story is true) Adam and Eve were of a certain race, and then reproduced to different races. Maybe one child was what we call today Chinese-looking, and one was what we call Italian-looking. Do you know what I mean?


But then there's the theory that if Adam and Eve had children, then those children would have to...er...couple.
The only possible way would be for a brother and sister to couple.
When a brother and sister couple and have a child, there is usually something wrong with the child when it is born.

Well, HELLO, brother and sister? How sick is that?


Which is the reason why I don't believe in Adam and Eve.

bna_li
June 6th, 2006, 06:00 AM
I've got a theory for that. The tower of Babel, where everyone started speaking different languages. And went on to have different races.

Gay people can't have babies the normal way. So I don't believe in gay marriage.

Bible was written by Men, inspired by God.

Lord Mike
June 6th, 2006, 06:49 AM
I'm still Christian but some of the little "theories" really perplex me.

Red530
June 6th, 2006, 06:42 PM
I'm not against gay marriage, but yes, some of these theories do bewilder me, as well. You're not alone. ^_^

bna_li
June 7th, 2006, 05:02 AM
I'll admit, some of the theories do not make perfect sense.

Lord Mike
June 7th, 2006, 07:26 AM
No, they really don't, do they?

Red530
June 7th, 2006, 03:11 PM
Ah yes, Adam and Eve.

But yesh...The Bible was written by people that were inspired by their religion.

And how about Noah's Ark?

bna_li
June 7th, 2006, 08:31 PM
No, they really don't, do they?
No, some do not. But you can only believe.

Allstories
June 8th, 2006, 05:09 AM
No, they really don't, do they?

Please, quit posting these nonsense, one-lined statements. No one cares about postcount anymore.

Lord Mike
June 8th, 2006, 06:22 AM
Please, quit posting these nonsense, one-lined statements. No one cares about postcount anymore.

Lol. When did you become a moderater?

I was just agreeing that some theories that have existed since the BCs don't all seem to make logical sense.

By the way, mini-modding is so annoying. :tired:

bna_li
June 8th, 2006, 04:32 PM
Lol. When did you become a moderater?

I was just agreeing that some theories that have existed since the BCs don't all seem to make logical sense.

By the way, mini-modding is so annoying. :tired:
I could not agree more. ****, why's it gotta be this way... I mean, it's not cool to get on each other's backs...

~Ozy~
June 8th, 2006, 05:06 PM
And how about Noah's Ark?

Noah's Ark there is at least some historical precedence for. All religions originating in that region have a flood story and from the recovery of those records, they all date to about the same time period. Whether or not the particulars are true, the aspect of a massive flood is not solely conjecture.

bna_li
June 8th, 2006, 05:25 PM
Noah's Ark there is at least some historical precedence for. All religions originating in that region have a flood story and from the recovery of those records, they all date to about the same time period. Whether or not the particulars are true, the aspect of a massive flood is not solely conjecture.
I heard they found it in some mountains, can't remember what happened...

Kakashi Sensei
June 8th, 2006, 05:39 PM
They did find it. They didn't do anything to it though. They are just still trying to figure out if it is the ark or not. But what they have found is the remains of a boat that would make titanic look like some kids toy boat to this thing!

*~Ashley~*
June 8th, 2006, 06:56 PM
I could not agree more. ****, why's it gotta be this way... I mean, it's not cool to get on each other's backs...
Okay, cut the swearing. Even when it's censored, it's still against the rules of the forum. And you, Allstories, YoMama, and anyone else for that matter, really need to quit getting offtopic. Next time anyone makes an offtopic post with nothing relating to the actual topic in it, they're getting a warning, alright?

~Ozy~
June 9th, 2006, 11:05 AM
They did find it. They didn't do anything to it though. They are just still trying to figure out if it is the ark or not. But what they have found is the remains of a boat that would make titanic look like some kids toy boat to this thing!

Well, in all fairness that doesn't necessarily point to the divine. Chinese junks of the Han Dynasty Were massive in size as well and employed seprate watertight compartments and onboard gardens capable of producing produce for the entire ship. Furthermore, the typically given measurement for the Ark is (correct me if I'm wrong) 40 cubits. The typically accepted Israeli/Judaic cubit is just under 18 inches, pointing to an estimate size for the Ark of 60 feet.

Lord Mike
June 9th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Okay, cut the swearing. Even when it's censored, it's still against the rules of the forum. And you, Allstories, YoMama, and anyone else for that matter, really need to quit getting offtopic. Next time anyone makes an offtopic post with nothing relating to the actual topic in it, they're getting a warning, alright?

Sorry about that Ashley. :)

Anyway, didn't they find Noah's Ark in like the Dead Sea or something?

bna_li
June 10th, 2006, 07:37 AM
Sorry about that Ashley. :)

Anyway, didn't they find Noah's Ark in like the Dead Sea or something?
You're such a good boy. I hate playing by the rules. Can't see how asterisks are gonna hurt kids.

No, they found it in some icy mountains.

Red530
June 10th, 2006, 12:17 PM
Yes, I remember seeing that on a Discovery channel program.

A global flood could have been possible. Maybe there was global warming at that specific time? We don't know at all.

bna_li
June 10th, 2006, 03:33 PM
I'm not even going to try and explain this one, it's way too long. I watched a video about this and it was so boring...

MegaLightBlaze
June 10th, 2006, 04:50 PM
I'm a Christian, a Mennonite, to be specific. It's interesting to see everyone's opinions, and I tend to agree with both bna_li and Nagoyaka Aikouka, who both bring up many goood points. I beleive that we should respect other peoples religions.
Yeah, that was weird/cool that they found Noah's ark.

Klippy
June 10th, 2006, 08:54 PM
I wish this haden't been made, religious topics are what make me hate going on Forums.

But, I'm a Christian, and I like being a Christian.
Nothing's gunna change my views.
I don't get what the point of being an athiest is, I mean, I'd rather take a chance (if I wasn't a Christian) with being a Christian, then not being a Christian and when I died, there being a Heaven (which there is), then going to hell.

That's my opinion, like I said, I hate threads like this, but this one sparked my interest.

Kalylia
June 11th, 2006, 03:23 AM
I'm sorry that you hate topics like this, but as I said, this is a place to express views, not force them on anyone else.

And whether or not I have mentioned it, I figure I'll do it again, as something interesting happened to me while I was gone last week. I was at a camp, and all of a sudden, I think it was like I first started seeing and hearing. I heard things that I'd never heard before. I was sleeping... or at least, about to sleep, and all of a sudden, I could hear the crickets outside, smell the slight chance of rain flitting across the wind, hear my roomie's quiet breathing... It was slightly amazing.

And that's something that happens in Buddhism, if I'm not mistaken.

*laughs* So maybe I'm not strictly Christian. Basically, I believe that all religions intertwine. And thus, I take a little from each one.

Red530
June 11th, 2006, 02:16 PM
I wish this haden't been made, religious topics are what make me hate going on Forums.

But, I'm a Christian, and I like being a Christian.
Nothing's gunna change my views.
I don't get what the point of being an athiest is, I mean, I'd rather take a chance (if I wasn't a Christian) with being a Christian, then not being a Christian and when I died, there being a Heaven (which there is), then going to hell.

That's my opinion, like I said, I hate threads like this, but this one sparked my interest.



Um..That part about being an atheist...You're not making sense.

Sometimes it's not their fault that their atheists.


If you're such a Christian, G-Man, why don't you respect others? It's none of your businesses to say that atheists have a possibility of going to Hell.

And yes, I agree with NA (Nagoyaka Aikouka).

Klippy
June 11th, 2006, 09:02 PM
^^That's really stupid.

It's not their fault they're athiests?
WTF, they chose to be athiest.

And, I never said anything about atheists going to hell, I said I'd rather take a chance with God, then not take a chance and wind up in hell.

I do respect others. That's why I didn't say any religion sucks, ect. ect.

The post above is why I hate topics like this. -_-
People that are too young or too stupid to understand what a simple post means.

Alana
June 11th, 2006, 09:40 PM
^^That's really stupid.

It's not their fault they're athiests?
WTF, they chose to be athiest.

And, I never said anything about atheists going to hell, I said I'd rather take a chance with God, then not take a chance and wind up in hell.

I do respect others. That's why I didn't say any religion sucks, ect. ect.

The post above is why I hate topics like this. -_-
People that are too young or too stupid to understand what a simple post means.

Not all Atheists choose to be Atheists. You can't force yourself to believe in something you don't think exists. If you don't believe in God then chances are, you never will. It is not someone's fault they’re Atheist any more than it's someone's fault their Christian. A Christian can't force themself not to believe in God, right? So how can an Atheist force themself to believe? And why do you think Atheists would go to hell? If God is truly great, do you really think he'd care if you believed or not? Or would God look at what the person did in life and determine whether they deserve to go to hell or not?

Kalylia
June 12th, 2006, 12:05 PM
Okay, I'm putting my foot down here. Quit arguing, please. This thread is NOT for arguments between religions. Atheists can be atheists, that is their free choice. Chrisians can choose to believe whether or not the believe that atheists choose their "religion". No more fighting, thank you.

Lord Mike
June 12th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Okay, I'm putting my foot down here. Quit arguing, please. This thread is NOT for arguments between religions. Atheists can be atheists, that is their free choice. Chrisians can choose to believe whether or not the believe that atheists choose their "religion". No more fighting, thank you.

I agree. You guys don't have to post here you know. :\

Athiests are people that don't believe in gods. Period.

bna_li
June 12th, 2006, 05:43 PM
There are two different types of Atheists.

1. "I don't believe in God, but it's possible."

And the ornery atheist.

2. "I don't believe in God, and I don't wanna believe in God, it's possible, but I still won't believe in God, ever.

Alana
June 12th, 2006, 05:51 PM
True, but there's also a third.

3. "I don't believe in God and I don't think it's possible. I also don't think I'll ever believe. There's just too much evidence against it.."

But don't go by me. I'm an oddball in everything. However, the same is true for all religions. The three different "types" would all say different things but they would be similar. Still, anyone who blindly follows any belief is a fool. You should always know why you believe the way you do.

((I wasn't fighting...:\))

bna_li
June 12th, 2006, 05:55 PM
No, I guess you weren't. I suppose these three are just "models" for most people.

But I didn't hear what you thought, and what religon you believe in?

Allstories
June 12th, 2006, 06:03 PM
There are two different types of Atheists.

1. "I don't believe in God, but it's possible."

And the ornery atheist.

2. "I don't believe in God, and I don't wanna believe in God, it's possible, but I still won't believe in God, ever.

Uhh, I think you're thinking of 1. An agnostic person, and 2. An agnostic person who also happens to be a jackass.

~Ozy~
June 12th, 2006, 06:10 PM
Agreed. bna_li, my apologies but that showed a remarkable lack of understanding of atheism, agnosticism, and even deism to som degree.

Alana
June 12th, 2006, 06:19 PM
I don't believe in God. I haven't for a very long time. I think that I did once, when I was five, but eventually I just stopped. I was never a very strong believer and I'm pretty sure I only believed because I was too young to question it.

bna_li
June 12th, 2006, 07:41 PM
Agreed. bna_li, my apologies but that showed a remarkable lack of understanding of atheism, agnosticism, and even deism to som degree.
Perhaps. I do not try to contend that I understand all of "atheism, agnosticism, and even deism"
Not gonna fight this one.
That was merely my opinion.

To AllStories: Dude... you using that avatar again?! How long have you had that.

Insomnium
June 14th, 2006, 11:48 AM
I'm an atheist, but even though I don't believe in God, I do belive in reincarnation. I used to believe there was a God, when I was about four or five, but not really anymore. Back then, I think I just belived because my neighbors did. ^-^

Red530
June 15th, 2006, 01:25 PM
I know someone who is 14 and was a Catholic all her life. At 14 she stopped believing in God. She doesn't find it possible.

And this thread isn't for arguing? Erm...then why was this thread even created? Debates are done this way. It's a very normal thing. But there ARE limits of course.

bna_li
June 15th, 2006, 04:24 PM
Sure, you can't go around without a proper argument and just saying someone's beliefs are stupid. That's whack.

Red530
June 16th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Exactly. The person would is stupid themself to do that.

Wolf_Goddess
June 16th, 2006, 12:46 PM
I'm Jewish, and one of the few in our school. Personally, I like my religion, but then again, sometimes I feel utterly alone...I have Christian friends, and very few Jewish friends if I don't count my cousins. But hey, what can you do? 'sides, I LOVE being different!

Lord Mike
June 16th, 2006, 01:20 PM
I personally think that in religion it doesn't matter if you're different or not.

Well, to some figures throughout history, it made a huge difference. I'll just take Adolf Hitler as an example. Hitler and his Nazi Party killed a total of 6 million Jews.

Red530
June 16th, 2006, 01:44 PM
WG, all that matters is that if you want to be Jewish.

I wish I had different friends that worshipped other religions. ^.^

Lord Mike
June 16th, 2006, 02:32 PM
I took a geograph class last year and 60% of the class was spent talking about Buddhism, Christian, Hinduism, Jewdism, and Muslim followers.

Red530
June 16th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Man, you're lucky. ~_~ I wish my classes were like that.

Lokhlan
June 16th, 2006, 05:51 PM
lol
Not all Atheists choose to be Atheists. You can't force yourself to believe in something you don't think exists.
You're CHOOSING not to think (believe) God exists.

Also, I don't like the word "force." I prefer persuade.

If you don't believe in God then chances are, you never will.
Chances are? Since when were there ever statistics on people who don't believe in God one day believing in him? Most religions and denominations teach their followers to pull nonbelievers to their cause so if anything what you said is more than likely reversed.

It is not someone's fault they’re Atheist any more than it's someone's fault their Christian.
Again, yes it is. People choose what they want to believe. Also, the use of the word "fault" really isn't appropriate unless you're speaking of specific places in Africa or other foreign countries where people are killed for believing in God. Assuming the role of the murdering lunatic, you could then say, "It was their fault they died, they were Christians."

A Christian can't force themself not to believe in God, right?
And why not? Many people grow up under the care of conservative parents force feeding them the bible. Those same children grow up and decide to reject anything holy. That's pretty much a good example persuading or "forcing" yourself not to believe.

So how can an Atheist force themself to believe? And why do you think Atheists would go to hell?
First of all, if you're atheist you probably don't believe in a hell anyway. Let's just assume for a minute that hell and God do exist. Why wouldn't atheists go to hell? Since atheists don't believe in either, and since God wants you to believe in him or rot in hell, I'd say being an atheist is a sure fire way to go there.

If God is truly great, do you really think he'd care if you believed or not?
You're so smart.

Or would God look at what the person did in life and determine whether they deserve to go to hell or not?
It's not really a question that can be answered. It simply boils down to if that's what you (CHOOSE) to believe or not.

Klippy
June 16th, 2006, 07:24 PM
Then you could say, "It was their fault they died, they were Christians."

Not to be rude, but, you probably should have said that differently.
They died because of what they believed, yes. But, their fault they died? Not at all. It's the ignorant people that killed them that are at fault. They are killing people because the people who are getting killed are trying to save people from being corrupted by Satan. They are called MARTYRS.
martyr: One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

Those people are not at fault. They should be in magazines and newspapers and on the news, instead of the pathetic actors and singers that are so corrupted by money and sin. They died for something.

Chase Leader
June 16th, 2006, 08:35 PM
It doesn't matter to me what anyone beleives in, I can't save them, they have to save themeselves...in the end all I can do is preach...but even then I feel like I would be forcing it on them...so I pray...but no matter what anyone beleives in I am happy that they beleive in something.

Yeah thats it...plain and simple.

Lokhlan
June 16th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Not to be rude, but, you probably should have said that differently.
They died because of what they believed, yes. But, their fault they died? Not at all. It's the ignorant people that killed them that are at fault. They are killing people because the people who are getting killed are trying to save people from being corrupted by Satan. They are called MARTYRS.
martyr: One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.

Those people are not at fault. They should be in magazines and newspapers and on the news, instead of the pathetic actors and singers that are so corrupted by money and sin. They died for something.
*rolls eyes*
Not to be rude, but I ment it to sound raw on purpose. And I realize nobody is at fault, I was simply trying to make a point. Sorry the idea of christians being murdered in cold blood offended you, but it happens all the time. It's real.

Klippy
June 16th, 2006, 10:57 PM
Uh, yeah, you don't think I know that it happens all the time?
I'm not really gunna bother arguing about this matter of religion anymore.

Lokhlan
June 17th, 2006, 09:12 AM
I'm not really gunna bother arguing about this matter of religion anymore.
Well that's good, especially considering nobody was arguing anyway... Glad to see you're the better man.

Red530
June 18th, 2006, 07:37 AM
Why would it be their fault that they're Christians? Why would it be the fault of atheists that they are like that? Or Buddhists?

And Chase Leader, why would you want to save them?

I think that every religion is fine, just as long as it's used for good.