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Otter Mii-kun
May 30th, 2006, 08:30 AM
From http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/may/06052502.html :
International Law Threatens Home Schooling Warns Home School Legal Defense

By Terry Vanderheyden

PURCELLVILLE, Virginia, May 25, 2006 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A home schooling association is warning that the U.S., and even more so other countries, faces the threat that home schooling may be deemed illegal due to international law.

The Home School Legal Defense Association's (HSLDA) Chairman and General Counsel, Michael Farris, warns that even though the U.S. has never ratified the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, the convention may still be binding on citizens because of activist judges.
According to a new "interpretation" of what is known as "customary international law," some U.S. judges have ruled that, even though the U.S. Senate and President have never ratified the Convention, it is still binding on American parents. "In the 2002 case of Beharry v. Reno, one federal court said that even though the Convention was never ratified, it still has an 'impact on American law'," Farris explained. "The fact that virtually every other nation in the world has adopted it has made it part of customary international law, and it means that it should be considered part of American jurisprudence."

Under the Convention, severe limitations are placed on a parent's right to direct and train their children. As explained in a 1993 Home School Court Report by the HSLDA, under Article 13, parents could be subject to prosecution for any attempt to prevent their children from interacting with material they deemed unacceptable. Under Article 14, children are guaranteed "freedom of thought, conscience and religion" - in other words, children have a legal right to object to all religious training. And under Article 15, the child has a right to "freedom of association." "If this measure were to be taken seriously, parents could be prevented from forbidding their child to associate with people deemed to be objectionable companions," the HSLDA report explained.

Farris explains that, in 1995, "the United Kingdom was deemed out of compliance" with the Convention "because it allowed parents to remove their children from public school sex-education classes without consulting the child". Farris argues that, "by the same reasoning, parents would be denied the ability to homeschool their children unless the government first talked with their children and the government decided what was best. This committee would even have the right to determine what religious teaching, if any, served the child's best interest."

Farris suggests that there are several solutions to the dangers presented by the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child for Americans. "First, Congress has the power to define customary international law. It also has the power to modify the jurisdiction of federal courts. Congress needs to address this issue of judicial tyranny by enacting legislation that limits the definition of customary international law to include only provisions of treaties that Congress has ratified."

"Second, Congress could pass an amendment to the Constitution, stating explicitly that no provision of any international agreement can supersede the constitutional rights of an American citizen. Two such amendments have been proposed in Congress, but neither was ratified."

"Third, the specific threat to parental rights can be solved by putting a clear parents' rights amendment into the black and white text of the United States Constitution."

In countries like the UK and Canada, which have already ratified the Convention, it is less clear what measures can be adopted, although similar measures are likely possible.

Also see http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm

Article 28 of the Convention states in part:

1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to education, and with a view to achieving this right progressively and on the basis of equal opportunity, they shall, in particular:

(a) Make primary education compulsory and available free to all;
......
(e) Take measures to encourage regular attendance at schools and the reduction of drop-out rates.

In addition, Article 32 states the following:
1. States Parties recognize the right of the child to be protected from economic exploitation and from performing any work that is likely to be hazardous or to interfere with the child's education, or to be harmful to the child's health or physical, mental, spiritual, moral or social development.

2. States Parties shall take legislative, administrative, social and educational measures to ensure the implementation of the present article. To this end, and having regard to the relevant provisions of other international instruments, States Parties shall in particular: (a) Provide for a minimum age or minimum ages for admission to employment;

(b) Provide for appropriate regulation of the hours and conditions of employment;

(c) Provide for appropriate penalties or other sanctions to ensure the effective enforcement of the present article.

This is exactly the same crap that the National Education Association and our two party system preaches upon us. How can ANY "rights of the child" agreement claim to be for the rights of the child when it takes away rights from the child in the first place? There's a big difference between a right and an obligation.

I have also read somewhere that all United Nations treaties affect ALL countries, even if they don't sign or ratify them!

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 08:55 AM
I think that's an outrage. There are some places where the school district isn't good enough for a child to be properly educated there. Don't forget about those with disabilities that can't show up in school.

Zone
May 30th, 2006, 09:28 AM
I think that's an outrage. There are some places where the school district isn't good enough for a child to be properly educated there. Don't forget about those with disabilities that can't show up in school.

If the school system isn't horrible, disabilities will be dealt with. A few people in my grade have dyslexia and one has aspergers, so they have a special learning center for them.

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 10:08 AM
True, but under some circumstances homeschooling is vital for some people.

Allstories
May 30th, 2006, 11:32 AM
Anyone remember Prussian Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_%28American_duo%29)? Yeah, guess what my stance on homeschooling is.

Zone
May 30th, 2006, 03:19 PM
True, but under some circumstances homeschooling is vital for some people.

How is it vital? Homeschooling can also make people secluded from other people and antisocial.

Lord Mike
May 30th, 2006, 04:19 PM
Some people are too sick to go to school.

Also, if your school district isn't good but you like the place you live, I say homeschool.

bna_li
May 30th, 2006, 10:12 PM
Anyone remember Prussian Blue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_%28American_duo%29)? Yeah, guess what my stance on homeschooling is.
That was one of the most messed up things I've seen. I'm with you on that one.

Drifblim
May 31st, 2006, 02:22 AM
Oh, I remember them. Teen People took a sharp blow to its popularity because they interviewed them. It's not really their fault; their mother, from what I heard, is mental.

Zone
May 31st, 2006, 03:22 AM
It's not really their fault; their mother, from what I heard, is mental.

Exactly. Homeschooling could be being done by corrupt parents who will twist around history lessons to make them into people like them.

Lord Mike
May 31st, 2006, 06:25 AM
We all have different views on this issue.

parallelzero
May 31st, 2006, 11:31 AM
One flaw with outlawing homeschooling I can see is the fact that not EVERYONE has access to a school nearby. Some people would have to travel hours on a bus each day to attend school, which is entierly ludicrous. While I agree homeschooling does kill any social skills one may have (In fact, its the point which is keeping me neutral. Some people are so pathetic in that sense, it ticks me off.) However, it isn't right to outlaw it.

bna_li
May 31st, 2006, 11:51 AM
If it's because of social skills that they are outlawing homeschooling, I'm totally against it. I am homeschooled, but am in no way an antisocial. I have many friends and invite them to my house regularly. We eat together, and ball together.

Red530
May 31st, 2006, 02:36 PM
That's really wrong.

Some parents can't afford for their kidsto go to a school, when it comes to the books, and the tuition fee.

But I guess that there's public school sometimes...

I don't find anything wrong with homeschooling though.

sdp
May 31st, 2006, 02:51 PM
I think Homeschooling is terrible and really shouldn't be as common as it is, but to outlaw it is a little too harsh.

Drifblim
May 31st, 2006, 04:04 PM
What I believe is that homeschooling should be standardised rather than outlawed — the school district should provide materials and a general curriculum for use in the home, or allow for lessons to be taught remotely, through radio or Internet. This way, it will be possible to obtain school credits that may be necessary to get into certain colleges, or, in the long run, a degree.

Red530
May 31st, 2006, 07:37 PM
Exactly. I totally agree with you, Crystal Walrein.

There is a site related to what you're talking about. I've only heard of one for Florida:

http://www.flvx.net

It's called Florida Virtual School.

A friend from Florida told me about it since we were discussing a topic about things like this.

I really do feel sorry for those that can't afford it though...

Arcanine
June 1st, 2006, 08:02 AM
Exactly. Homeschooling could be being done by corrupt parents who will twist around history lessons to make them into people like them. They do a fine enough job as is in the public school text books. There's a lot of lies in the public school stuff (I do admit that it's mostly in science stuff).

I think Homeschooling is terrible and really shouldn't be as common as it is, but to outlaw it is a little too harsh. Right, and all public schools should be burned down.


I'll make this short (some of you that know my posting style are thinking "Yea sure, it's going to be long when he says that" XD).

UN:
Who died and made the UN rules of the whole world? The UN is just a bunch of stuck up, corrupt, dictators that thinks they know everything and stick their hand in everyone else's business. They go around saying "Blah blah blah" and think everyone will go "OH OH OH they are soooooo right". I have NO respect for the UN, I'll say it again, I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THAT SCREWED UP THING CALLED THE UNITED NATIONS. If they want to outlaw homeschooling then they can come and kiss my..... you know.

Public Schools: I got to say something on public schools (this will be short).
Who's to say that public schooling is the way to go? I know 95% (or more) that's reading this goes to public schools (I should note, that I'm talking about US schools here). And that's all fine and dandy, but how many of you stopped to think "Well, maybe public schooling isn't what's best for me.". Lots of it is lies (again in science books), stuff like the human body, the Grand Canyon and so on. I'm not going to get into the whole "Creation vs Evolution" thing but a lot of it is lies (my dad has tapes and stuff on that sort of stuff and you'd be shocked at something like the Grand Canyon). But no one questions it (I'm not saying the teachers are the wrong doers here, they just teach, my dealings is with the writers and the scientist that thinks they know everything), and when a few parents do and say "Hey, I'm not going to put up with that so I'm going to teach my kids at home" someone tries to shoot them down. I thought it was the parent's job to raise the kids, not the gov telling the parents they have to send their kids here or there. And the public schools are a monopoly. When you got a monopoly standards go down, effort and time with the kids goes down. And they'll teach whatever they want to. The way they have it its like "You're going to go to our schools or you won't go at all", and on top of that it's run by the government. The only thing they know is how to take your money.
If public schools took out the flat out lies and had both Creation and Evolution in schools (give them both sides, don't push one view over the other and let the kids make up their mind) then I'd be back in there. And I do think many parents that homeschools their kids would do the same.

Homeschools: As you might have gotten from the paragraph above, I'm homeschooled. I went to public school in first grade, didn't like it (because the teachers were the pain, I hated getting up early, and not being able to take off and go somewhere when I wanted just sucked). Got into homeschooling liked it way better. And I've been doing it ever since. Sure there's downsides, but you got downsides with everything. David says it kills the social skills, and I have to disagree. Some kids will have no social skills (just like there will be dropouts from public schools) if being homeschooled. But I've been homeschooled all my life, my brother has, some of my cousins, and a few friends as well. All of us have friends, most are ones that goes to public schools, none of us are lacking on social skills.
Many parents homeschool their kids for one reason or another. Some doesn't want them to learn about evolution, others have their kids at home because the kids get picked on a lot, and some parents just have their kids home to be with them more. Whatever the reason the parents and kids should have that choice to say "I want [my kids] to be homeschooled". The UN, the government, and others shouldn't tell parents how to raise their kids. Next thing you know they'll say you can't give them this kind of food, they can't watch this kind of movie, they can't play this kind of game. Yes games, movies and foods have guidelines (well more like meds have guidelines) and ratings, but it's still up to the parents to say "Ok son, you can't play GTA till you're 17, you're 15 right now so you're too young".
If we come to a point where the gov tells somehow how to raise their kids then anything is possible.

Red530
June 1st, 2006, 11:57 AM
Very, VERY well said, Arcanine.


Who died and made the UN rules of the whole world? The UN is just a bunch of stuck up, corrupt, dictators that thinks they know everything and stick their hand in everyone else's business. They go around saying "Blah blah blah" and think everyone will go "OH OH OH they are soooooo right". I have NO respect for the UN, I'll say it again, I HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THAT SCREWED UP THING CALLED THE UNITED NATIONS. If they want to outlaw homeschooling then they can come and kiss my..... you know.

I don't like the US government so far. I'm a Bush-hater. That says it right there. Haha.


I got to say something on public schools (this will be short).
Who's to say that public schooling is the way to go? I know 95% (or more) that's reading this goes to public schools (I should note, that I'm talking about US schools here). And that's all fine and dandy, but how many of you stopped to think "Well, maybe public schooling isn't what's best for me.".

I've heard people that changed from my private school to public schools say, "It's much easier, and you can do whatever you want." That's the bad thing.
I used to go to a public school, and I didn't like it.
I changed to a private school. It was a challenge, which was a good thing. Everybody needs a challenge.

But there are some public schools are really good. But it's fact that private schools seem to reach farther.

mistershow
June 1st, 2006, 01:06 PM
I guess the only argument for it is that the majority of home schooled kids, in the US, are getting warped views of the truth and the real world....which is no good.

The Fallen
June 2nd, 2006, 04:12 PM
Homeschooling should be done by teachers still in my opinion. You can hire a teacher that knows every topic that needs to be taught so the children still get a full education.

Squeegee Beckenheim
June 3rd, 2006, 03:10 AM
You don't have to be taught by a teacher in the present flesh, Bobby. I am homeschooled using teachers, teaching me on DVD. And my mom only checks some of my papers. So my mom really has no opportunity to edit my schooling good for me.

I think the UN has no right to do this. And I do not think they will do this in the end. And if they do, I hope they wait a few years so I can graduate with this homeschool program and go to college.

Chiru
June 3rd, 2006, 09:20 AM
Okay. First of all, I think that outlawing homeschooling is a completely stupid idea. Like other people have said, in some cases it's the family's only option, and it can be a quieter and more comfortable learning environment. I go to a public school, and since Math is my worst subject, I'm in a basic math class with a bunch of stupid delinquents who don't give two [you know]'s about learning. They're constantly disrupting the class, and on some days we hardly get anything done. It's annoying to me because I actually want to learn, and I won't want to constantly be distracted by these idiots. I'm in an advanced English class, which is better because you're surrounded by the people who actually work hard and care about their grades, but I realize that not everyone has the option of taking advanced classes.

Going with what a friend of mine says about being homeschooled, you are in a more comfortable environment without distractions from 25 other students, and the teaching is more one-on-one so you can understand what you learn better. Those are the benefits. Yes, you aren't surrounded by other kids, and that may lead to some people being antosocial, but hell, I'm more antisocial than a lot of people I know that are homeschooled. I'm not trying to glorify homeschooling, and I'm sure there are just as many downsides to it, but I thought I'd like to bring this point up.

Also, homeschooling only really works if the person doing the homeschooling is fit to be teaching. I know a kid who told me that her parents said that she was being homeschooled, but they really didn't teach her at all and only kept her home to babysit her siblings. I think that things like that need to be dealt with, and whoever's in charge of this should take the time to make sure that the student who will be homeschooled will actually be taught, but there's no reason to outlaw homeschooling because of cases like this one.

Another thing I'd like to bring up is this: forgive me if I'm mistaken, because I don't care about politics enough to know this for sure, but what power does the UN have over this? They don't have power over any country's government, do they? One would think that issues like this would be left up to each individual country to decide within their own government.

Blaze
June 3rd, 2006, 09:25 AM
Banning homeschooling has got to be the most idiotic and illogical thing I have ever heard. Especially with the conditions of most public schools, homeschooling allows an alternative to that.

I believe the United Nations needs to focus more on ending corruption within the organization. I mean seriously, who takes the U.N seriously anymore I mean this whole league of nations never does prevent wars.

It is just a bunch of old men who think they are superior and speak on behalf of the people, which in reality they are not. They need to get out of their BMW's and drive into the real sections of Planet Earth.

They just want to outlaw it because homeschooling usually provides children who are more highly educated which are deemed a t hreat to their power and control over the masses.

Zelos
June 3rd, 2006, 12:21 PM
I don't think banning it would be the right thing to do. I attend a public school now, but I was homeschooled from 2nd to 5th grade. When I first entered 6th grade at a public middle school many people were surprised at how smart I was. I made straight A's and everything...

My mom received books and a curriculum for me from them. I would go through it and read the books, do the homework, and take tests at the end of the year just like everyone else. I really did like it. I had lots of friends even though I didn't go to a public school so it wasn't really that I was always alone.

Lord Mike
June 5th, 2006, 05:55 AM
Public schools are so easy these days. I live in Alabama and the state is ranked 49th in test scores.

Dignity
June 5th, 2006, 03:20 PM
I think that is SOO unfair. I know how it is to be homeschooled, and it's a wonderful thing. I was homeschooled until the third grade, and I had plenty of friends. I was, however, shocked at the naivete of some of the children in school. ^^; Just my two cents.

Lord Mike
June 5th, 2006, 03:49 PM
I think that is SOO unfair. I know how it is to be homeschooled, and it's a wonderful thing. I was homeschooled until the third grade, and I had plenty of friends. I was, however, shocked at the naivete of some of the children in school. ^^; Just my two cents.

I know. Some teens today are under too much peer pressure at school and sometimes don't even feel safe at school because they might be afraid a bully will steal their lunch or beat them up. You should always be able to feel safe in your school. If you don't feel safe, I say homeschool.

RedGyarados
June 14th, 2006, 01:23 PM
I am homeschooled as well. I have a very full life, filled with relationships with people of various ages in many areas. I am not anti-social or backward. My mother teaches me and my brothers to think critically, to examine evidence and seek truth. Most homeschoolers are completely normal kids, at least as normal as the kids who are institutionalized in a public school setting. Those of you who are anti-homeschooling have not given any relevant evidence for your opinions. For every backward, racist homeschooler you show me, I'll show you ten that go to school outside the home. Get your facts straight!

Lord Mike
June 14th, 2006, 01:26 PM
I like going to school to hanging out with people and being social, but homeschooling still shouldn't be outlawed.

DarkGreg
June 14th, 2006, 01:29 PM
I'm not homeschooled but my public school sux for most people I know, everywhere you look evreyone looks shifty and they bully everyone too, someone tryed to hit me before and a couple of secs. later they were leftcrying on the ground by me

Aegis
June 14th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Thats sounds exactly like something that the UN would do. Its a complete outrage. Personally, I don't think that it will happen, because to many businesses would go belly up. Like "Pedmont Homeschooling", all it does is register and manage homeschooling families. And I know there are many more like it that would be out if this law was placed.

Lord Mike
June 14th, 2006, 02:24 PM
My question is why are they doing this? There are some schools in neighborhoods that don't provide enough education for more advanced people. You'd be suprised at some schools you'd see around the USA. Sometimes you're better off homeschooling.

Shining Arcanine
June 14th, 2006, 04:14 PM
According to a new "interpretation" of what is known as "customary international law," some U.S. judges have ruled that, even though the U.S. Senate and President have never ratified the Convention, it is still binding on American parents. "In the 2002 case of Beharry v. Reno, one federal court said that even though the Convention was never ratified, it still has an 'impact on American law'," Farris explained. "The fact that virtually every other nation in the world has adopted it has made it part of customary international law, and it means that it should be considered part of American jurisprudence."

If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would Judge Farris jump off too?

Exactly. Homeschooling could be being done by corrupt parents who will twist around history lessons to make them into people like them.

So are you saying that the possibility that could happen should ruin it for everyone? Does this not work both ways, where public education could be done by a corrupt state government which will twist around history and all other classes to make students into people like them? You know if people are allowed to leave their homes, they might kill others. Does this mean that the government has the right to restrict people to their homes?