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weedle_mchairybug
November 7th, 2006, 05:10 AM
I mean, I find it doubtful that they could be, especially since they can be defeated, even though it would be difficult. And my definition of a god is that it cannot be defeated. Even Aruseus, the creation pokemon, could be defeated, if the health gauge is proof enough. And before you say that it is only in the games, need I remind you that the Anime also mentions them being defeated? A notable example would be Pokemon the Movie 2000. Other examples would be the Noland episode, the Raikou special, the Lugia arc, the 4th and 5th movies (Celebi and Latios, respectively), the Mewtwo Returns special, the Groudon and Kyogre arc (they didn't exactly show one being defeated, but since they were fighting and if Rayquaza didn't intervene, then one of them, if not the both of them, would be defeated.) the Battle Pyramid arc (at least, Regice was defeated.), the Deoxys movie (same as scuffle of legends except replace Groudon and Kyogre with Deoxys (both the shadow ones and the two Deoxys) and Rayquaza, and Rayquasa (the one from scuffle of legends I mean.) with Ash and Company (as well as the malfuntioning blocky robots.).). you may point out that they control the laws of nature, but then again, non legendary pokemon can do that as well.

Astinus
November 7th, 2006, 11:57 AM
you may point out that they control the laws of nature, but then again, non legendary pokemon can do that as well.
Name one non-Legendary Pokémon that can force volcanos to erupt. Yes, I know that when a herd of Pikachu gather, their elcetricity causes thunderclouds to appear. That's when you have to have multiple Pikachu. Raikou can do that with by itself. And Lugia can create hurricanes of destructive forces.

I mean, I find it doubtful that they could be, especially since they can be defeated, even though it would be difficult.
In one of my favorite fantasy book series, the gods take the forms of humans to walk around and see how things are going. Or to meddle. The Pokégods are actual physical entities that wander the world. They are only flesh and blood. No matter what qualities humans attach to them, such as Entei and its powers to make volcanos erupt, the Pokégods are still flesh and blood. If you cut them, do they not bleed?

Forever
November 7th, 2006, 03:29 PM
I think they are the gods because they are legends most things what are legends rule.

While they easily beat everything else, the other Pokemon have alot of trouble to verse some.

So to me they are gods.

weedle_mchairybug
November 7th, 2006, 03:50 PM
Ok, Hanako Tabris, here is a list of things that are nature controlling related and the users aren't legendary: Torkoals attacks include eruption. AJ's Sandshrew used earthquake, which, although isn't exactly a volcano erupting, it is a sign that a volcano is erupting (or about to erupt), as well as many rock, or ground pokemon using the technique as well as magnitude. For other portions of nature, many non legendary flying pokemon, Pidgey and it's family being a notable example, has the gust move, which actually forms up a tornado, which, last time I checked, was a destructive force. Also, in the Showdown at Dark City episode, Pikachu actually summoned a thundercloud all by itself to use thunder to conduct the wires to basically shock both the Yas and Kas gyms to try and stop them from warring with each other. I think Gyarados changed the calm weather to stormy weather when it was about to use Dragon Rage, Castform actually mutates forms depending on the weather, not to mention actually uses weather controlling moves. Some non- legendary water pokemon know the rain summoning move Rain Dance. And some pokemon that aren't legendaries, like Jynx for example, seem to summon Blizzards. Also some non-legendary pokemon use the oceanic wave summoning ability known as Surf. also, pokemon such as Clefairy and Togepi use metronome, and some of the random attacks have weather inducing powers.

And in regards to what I said about my definition of a god, I was using the definition of the Christian God. Although you do have a good point on the part on the legendarys, if cut, can bleed and are basically flesh and blood.

Astinus
November 7th, 2006, 05:58 PM
Jesus was the one who said "If you cut me, do I not bleed?" He is the Son of God, as defined by religious terms. And can we please remember that there are other religions out there, and that the Japanese people who created Pokémon are Taoists as well?

You name me one regular non-Legendary that can resurrect life as Ho-Oh can. You name me one non-Legenadry Pokémon that can level islands. You name me one non-Legendary Pokémon that can be brought down easily, as Nica said. You name me one non-Legendary Pokémon that can create the world.

weedle_mchairybug
November 7th, 2006, 07:53 PM
In regards to the part of resurrecting life like Ho-Oh, in Mewtwo Strikes Back, many Pokemon, both the original and the cloned, non-legendary Pokemon (this rules out Mewtwo and Mew, and even if they did count, they weren't crying, they were looking around bewildered.), cried for Ash, and he was resurrected by their tears (It is also the same movie that had mentions of God in the beginning of the Japanese version that was cut by 4kids.). Also, if by leveling islands, you mean possibly destroying it, then Pikachu did destroy a mountain in Hoenn (Ok, so it wasn't exactly an island, but, islands are mountains that have their summits rise out of the waves, so it sort of fits.). Also, basically every Pokemon, depending on the strength of your Pokemon, can be easily taken down. now if you meant can't be easily taken down, again that has to do with how much experience the Pokemon has. you and Nica have a point on the Aruseus creating the world part, but like I said, he can still be taken down. And I know about the part involving Jesus, but I was meaning God the father, and God the holy spirit, especially the parts in that no matter the challenges, he always takes down the armies of evil (hence my thinking on how God is supposed to be unbeatable.) Plus, Jesus never died or fainted, if using Pokemon terms (and by that I mean actually staying dead. Yes, he did die on the cross for our sins, but he revived himself three days later.). And I know that there are other religions other than christianity. but even if they were polytheistic, they believed that their "gods" cannot be killed (Greece and Rome did, anyways. Yes they did have gruesome stories on how Athena was born, but the "god" who gave birth to her still lived, nonetheless.)

miyo
November 7th, 2006, 09:24 PM
I don't think they're gods.. I think they can resemble a godly, holy figure, but every legendary POkemon has their own weaknesses.. and it's not as if a legendary can never be KO-ed. Gods shouldn't die, should they? =/

Allstories
November 8th, 2006, 05:35 AM
We're talking about Pokégods? At one point did we start living in 1998 again?

Ryoutarou
November 8th, 2006, 06:04 AM
We're talking about Pokégods? At one point did we start living in 1998 again?The second there was a Pokemon with official data saying it's the "God of all Pokemon".

miyo
November 8th, 2006, 08:58 PM
We're talking about Pokégods? At one point did we start living in 1998 again?

why 1998? did something happen back in 1998? o.O

[Phantom Upheaval]
November 9th, 2006, 06:42 AM
why 1998? did something happen back in 1998? o.OTogepi and Marill were mistaken as PokeGods back in RBY days.
I don't remember most of it, though.

miyo
November 10th, 2006, 11:45 PM
;2285456']Togepi and Marill were mistaken as PokeGods back in RBY days.
I don't remember most of it, though.

Oh yes, I think I've heard something like that about Togepi back then as well..

hmmms. RBY days were 2000 for me/in my country.. the game only became a phenomenon (as it should be :P) in 2000 over here.. ><

Pikachu_Charizard
November 11th, 2006, 06:23 PM
They could be Gods that could be defeated, weird. But they could just be powerful.

weedle_mchairybug
November 12th, 2006, 11:25 AM
I don't think they're gods.. I think they can resemble a godly, holy figure, but every legendary POkemon has their own weaknesses.. and it's not as if a legendary can never be KO-ed. Gods shouldn't die, should they? =/

That was the point I was trying to make (Apart from the previous statements I made in my previous post.). Thank you, Miyo, for bringing up the point that I couldn't convince them. I really thank you. Anyways, the part involving Legendaries being Gods doesn't even make sense, because they can still be KO'ed, even by a non-legendary.

SBaby
November 27th, 2006, 05:21 PM
That was the point I was trying to make (Apart from the previous statements I made in my previous post.). Thank you, Miyo, for bringing up the point that I couldn't convince them. I really thank you. Anyways, the part involving Legendaries being Gods doesn't even make sense, because they can still be KO'ed, even by a non-legendary.

They're considered Gods in the Anime only (by fans, not officially). In the game, the world doesn't get thrown outta whack when you catch one, but do so in the Anime and all hell breaks loose. However, that doesn't necessarily apply to all Pokemon that are considered Legendary (only the ones that are stated to maintain the properties of the world). Classic example, Zapdos, Articuno and Moltres are like Gods, but Latios and Latias aren't (world didn't end or get thrown outta whack when Latios croaked).

Basically, after First Edition, they started going into the realm of sub-Legendaries (legendary Pokemon that aren't the main Legendaries of the world, Demi-Gods), which was already evident in the games. That's why in the games thirty different Trainers can go against each other and have Articuno, Moltres and Zapdos on their respective teams.

Also you have to remember, the Gods in mythology weren't indestructible. They could be slain (though it usually requires an epic quest to do so). The same can apply to the Legendary Pokemon, even if they ARE Gods.

Bottom line: Am I sure the Legendary Pokemon are Gods? No. Are they comparable to Gods? Yes.

~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~
December 1st, 2006, 05:05 PM
Speaking of Pokemon gods, I thought that Aruseus was the Pokemon god?

:t354:~*!*~Queen Boo~*!*~

Lavabyle
December 1st, 2006, 05:23 PM
I consider them as gods, i mean ancient greek gods and all that all had a weakness, right? I mean if you team on a legendary the odds are in your favor, but they are gods in 1 on 1.

Crimson Arcanine
December 1st, 2006, 07:39 PM
Gods are much harder to beat than a "mortal". But they are as fallible as any being. Maybe the legendaries are more similar to kami (think thats the word) then gods?

Forci Stikane
December 2nd, 2006, 07:21 AM
In regards to the part of resurrecting life like Ho-Oh, in Mewtwo Strikes Back, many Pokemon, both the original and the cloned, non-legendary Pokemon (this rules out Mewtwo and Mew, and even if they did count, they weren't crying, they were looking around bewildered.), cried for Ash, and he was resurrected by their tears (It is also the same movie that had mentions of God in the beginning of the Japanese version that was cut by 4kids.). Also, if by leveling islands, you mean possibly destroying it, then Pikachu did destroy a mountain in Hoenn (Ok, so it wasn't exactly an island, but, islands are mountains that have their summits rise out of the waves, so it sort of fits.). Also, basically every Pokemon, depending on the strength of your Pokemon, can be easily taken down. now if you meant can't be easily taken down, again that has to do with how much experience the Pokemon has. you and Nica have a point on the Aruseus creating the world part, but like I said, he can still be taken down. And I know about the part involving Jesus, but I was meaning God the father, and God the holy spirit, especially the parts in that no matter the challenges, he always takes down the armies of evil (hence my thinking on how God is supposed to be unbeatable.) Plus, Jesus never died or fainted, if using Pokemon terms (and by that I mean actually staying dead. Yes, he did die on the cross for our sins, but he revived himself three days later.). And I know that there are other religions other than christianity. but even if they were polytheistic, they believed that their "gods" cannot be killed (Greece and Rome did, anyways. Yes they did have gruesome stories on how Athena was born, but the "god" who gave birth to her still lived, nonetheless.)

1. That's multiple Pokemon, not just one. Also, are we even sure he was dead and not just petrified?

2. Mountains are not islands. Islands are usually MUCH bigger. Pikachu (or any other non-Legendary) could not level an entire island.

3. None of the higher-level Legendaries have EVER been beaten in the anime (like SBaby said, they aren't really given the same level of divinity in the games). They've been weakened (which is quite possible to do to a god if given enough force, like from another god), but never beaten.

Now, as regards to the entire topic, hairybug, whether or not a Legendary compares to a god eventually comes down to an individual's belief. You're free to have your own belief, but can NOT try to force others to change theirs (which is what you're doing). I am outraged that you're trying to change others' beliefs (or even convert them? It isn't that hard to see) and using the forum to do it. Either drop the topic and move on or LEAVE.

By the way, all of those attacks you mentioned earlier as controlling nature...are ATTACKS. Eruption is an attack (which DOESN'T cause actual volcanoes to erupt, BTW), Earthquake is an attack, Gust is an attack, and Rain Dance/Sunny Day/Sandstorm/Hail are attacks (that don't even last that long). Legendaries can do it WITHOUT using an attack.

Scarlet Weather
December 2nd, 2006, 10:20 AM
Jesus was the one who said "If you cut me, do I not bleed?" He is the Son of God, as defined by religious terms. And can we please remember that there are other religions out there, and that the Japanese people who created Pokémon are Taoists as well?

You name me one regular non-Legendary that can resurrect life as Ho-Oh can. You name me one non-Legenadry Pokémon that can level islands. You name me one non-Legendary Pokémon that can be brought down easily, as Nica said. You name me one non-Legendary Pokémon that can create the world.


A-hem... Jesus was in the form of a man when he said that, and thus had a dual identity as both God and man. If you're trying to say that Jesus meant that God is a physical person, you are sadly mistake... but let's leave religion out of this.

To get to my point, the legendary Pokemon are not considered gods for one reason- no one worships them. There are no temples in honor of Ho-oh, no shrines to Aruseus. The closest thing that you get at all to a temple to any legendary is the shrine to the forest's protector, Celebi, and while I believe Celebi has a festival in his/her honor, he/she/it is not regarded as a deity in the sense that I see it. Anyway, name one legendary who cannot be defeated: their ability to lose alone proves their mortality. Aruseus may be considered the "God of Pokemon", but that is probably stemming from the mythology surrounding him, just like real living creatures inspired the stories of sea monsters told by sailors.

1. That's multiple Pokemon, not just one. Also, are we even sure he was dead and not just petrified?

2. Mountains are not islands. Islands are usually MUCH bigger. Pikachu (or any other non-Legendary) could not level an entire island.

3. None of the higher-level Legendaries have EVER been beaten in the anime (like SBaby said, they aren't really given the same level of divinity in the games). They've been weakened (which is quite possible to do to a god if given enough force, like from another god), but never beaten.

Now, as regards to the entire topic, hairybug, whether or not a Legendary compares to a god eventually comes down to an individual's belief. You're free to have your own belief, but can NOT try to force others to change theirs (which is what you're doing). I am outraged that you're trying to change others' beliefs (or even convert them? It isn't that hard to see) and using the forum to do it. Either drop the topic and move on or LEAVE.

By the way, all of those attacks you mentioned earlier as controlling nature...are ATTACKS. Eruption is an attack (which DOESN'T cause actual volcanoes to erupt, BTW), Earthquake is an attack, Gust is an attack, and Rain Dance/Sunny Day/Sandstorm/Hail are attacks (that don't even last that long). Legendaries can do it WITHOUT using an attack.

A-hem, once again...

1. Are you sure the Legendaries WEREN'T using an attack? Pokemon don't tend to yell "Earthquake!" or "Sunny Day!" when attacking, so there is really no evidence that the legendaries were not using a technique. Don't cite this as evidence.

2. Icha, I didn't see anything in here asking you to change your belief. If you do not want to discuss the topic, perhaps YOU should be the one to leave. Those of us who do want to talk about it are free to do so as much as we please. Kindly respect our rights.

3. Lugia was knocked into the water during the second movie, Celebi was captured in a dark ball, and Kyogre was driven off by a combined effort from Groudon and Satoshi-tachi. Raikou has been captured, and had to be rescued. And if one God can weaken another, it stands to reason that he can beat another. Ability to lose= no divinity. Out of the ballpark.

4. The whole "Poke-Tear ressurection" thing was because Pokemon have tears full of life- any Pokemon can resurrect someone from near death with enough power. Anyway, even if it takes multiple non-legendaries to equal the power of a single legend, doesn't that still mean that the legendary Pokemon lose some divine status? After all, a god should be able to do things no mortal could ever equal, no matter what... if you're going to cite unique legendary moves as evidence here, don't bother. I understand that. But no high-level legendary has ever used its unique move in the anime. Why, I don't know. Go figure.

Forci Stikane
December 2nd, 2006, 03:15 PM
1. Are you sure the Legendaries WEREN'T using an attack? Pokemon don't tend to yell "Earthquake!" or "Sunny Day!" when attacking, so there is really no evidence that the legendaries were not using a technique. Don't cite this as evidence.

2. Icha, I didn't see anything in here asking you to change your belief. If you do not want to discuss the topic, perhaps YOU should be the one to leave. Those of us who do want to talk about it are free to do so as much as we please. Kindly respect our rights.

3. Lugia was knocked into the water during the second movie, Celebi was captured in a dark ball, and Kyogre was driven off by a combined effort from Groudon and Satoshi-tachi. Raikou has been captured, and had to be rescued. And if one God can weaken another, it stands to reason that he can beat another. Ability to lose= no divinity. Out of the ballpark.

4. The whole "Poke-Tear ressurection" thing was because Pokemon have tears full of life- any Pokemon can resurrect someone from near death with enough power. Anyway, even if it takes multiple non-legendaries to equal the power of a single legend, doesn't that still mean that the legendary Pokemon lose some divine status? After all, a god should be able to do things no mortal could ever equal, no matter what... if you're going to cite unique legendary moves as evidence here, don't bother. I understand that. But no high-level legendary has ever used its unique move in the anime. Why, I don't know. Go figure.

If you want to believe that, then go right ahead. I'm not trying to change what anyone thinks (that first post was just counter-evidence).

HOWEVER,

Thank you, Miyo, for bringing up the point that I couldn't convince them

Key word there being "convince," as in trying to get a point across to try and change the way someone thinks.

And, for the record, I DID say that they could be weakened (and two equally-divine beings being able to beat each other doesn't make them any less divine to those under them). Also, when I say "higher-level Legendary", I mean those Legendaries that have been openly said to have major divinity (meaning the trios don't count). Celebi was brainwashed, but broke out of it.

BTW, in regards to that last point, Celebi's Time Travel and Deoxys' form change & Psycho Boost are Legendary-specific moves that have been in the anime.

Scarlet Weather
December 2nd, 2006, 05:33 PM
Key word there being "convince," as in trying to get a point across to try and change the way someone thinks.

And, for the record, I DID say that they could be weakened (and two equally-divine beings being able to beat each other doesn't make them any less divine to those under them). Also, when I say "higher-level Legendary", I mean those Legendaries that have been openly said to have major divinity (meaning the trios don't count). Celebi was brainwashed, but broke out of it.

BTW, in regards to that last point, Celebi's Time Travel and Deoxys' form change & Psycho Boost are Legendary-specific moves that have been in the anime.

Hmm... I missed that post. I still enjoy the topic, so I'd rather it be kept open, however. It's fun to debate. Let's see...

1. Technically, Time Travel is an ability, not a move, but I'll let that slide.

2. Still just attacks- until Leafia came on the scene, Leaf Blade was also a unique ability.

3. No legendary except Aruseus has been claimed to have open divinity as a God, and he isn't even in the anime as of now. Go figure.

4. Please, explain to me how Pokemon working together can duplicate a "God Pokemon"... does this mean all Pokemon are little gods? Is this whole thing a religious shtick? I don't think Nintendo meant for the legendary Pokemon to be perceived as gods at all... it would bring the evangelicals down on their heads like a swarm of locusts, to say the least. I still think the legendary Pokemon are either emissaries of a higher being (NOT Aruseus), or just uber-Pokemon...

FYI, in the "prince of the sea" movie, Manaphy, a Pokemon with near-divinity, is adressed as the sea-prince, not god. And to top that off, Rayquaza has been captured by Team Rocket through some unknown means in that movie... he still hasn't broken out.

Forci Stikane
December 2nd, 2006, 06:12 PM
3. No legendary except Aruseus has been claimed to have open divinity as a God

*Bup, bup, bup*...I didn't say it had to be divinity as a god. I just said having major divinity, such as creating the earth (Kyogre & Groudon) or giving life (Ho-oh).

4. Please, explain to me how Pokemon working together can duplicate a "God Pokemon"... does this mean all Pokemon are little gods? Is this whole thing a religious shtick?

No...think of them more like...I guess "elves" or "nymphs" would be the best analogy (a teeny tiny bit of divine power in each one, but can combine that power on occasion for the bigger stuff).

I still think the legendary Pokemon are either emissaries of a higher being (NOT Aruseus), or just uber-Pokemon...

You mean like the Dogs in the anime?

FYI, in the "prince of the sea" movie, Manaphy, a Pokemon with near-divinity, is adressed as the sea-prince, not god. And to top that off, Rayquaza has been captured by Team Rocket through some unknown means in that movie... he still hasn't broken out.

(I'll kick myself where it hurts later for saying this, but...)

Rayquaza's just a big strong dragon Pokemon in the anime, no divinity involved (proven by its lack of appearance during the Kyogre/Groudon hour).

And Manaphy......(and here's another kick for later) is more relatable to Christ than a god, in the respect that it's the son of a god (supposedly...), which begs the question, what about Fione? A prophet, perhaps...? (......I don't mean to insult anyone out there, but that's just the closest analogy I can think of ATM.)

And, I don't mind the topic in general, either...it's just the way it was given (and the way the starter's acted).

Scarlet Weather
December 3rd, 2006, 01:18 PM
And Manaphy......(and here's another kick for later) is more relatable to Christ than a god, being a PRINCE and all...which begs the question, what about Fione? A prophet, perhaps...? (......I don't mean to insult non-Christians out there (which I'm one of), but that's just the closest analogy I can think of ATM.)

And, I don't mind the topic in general, either...it's just the way it was given (and the way the starter's acted).

Well, I happen to NOT be a non-christian, and I'm a bit offended that you just compared the man who saved me from my sins and should be the most important person in my life to a blue freak who rules the ocean. Ho-oh is more like Jesus then any other Pokemon, what with his ability to give people new life. Don't make religious comparisons to figures outside of any religion you follow, because chances are you will make a mistake and offend someone. Please, delete the reference in your post, and I will delete the one in mine. I don't want this to become a debate that extends beyond whether or not the legendaries in the Pokemon world are the supreme beings there. Manaphy is not a good Christ-paralell because it never sacrifices itself in order to save others- and to top it off, it is portrayed as a small child. Please refrain from any other Christ-references in regards to Pokemon. Thank you. Oh, and FYI, Christ is God if you are a Christian. I'd explain it to you, but this is not the time or the place to do so.

Now, to get back to the actual discussion...

*Bup, bup, bup*...I didn't say it had to be divinity as a god. I just said having major divinity, such as creating the earth (Kyogre & Groudon) or giving life (Ho-oh).

"Divinity" is a term exclusively applied to a god, period. Anyway, Kyogre/Groudon creating the earth is not a known fact, it is simply a legend. Their earlier battle may have produced cataclysms that changed the face of the earth, but they did not create it. Besides, if there was no earth at first, where the heck were they fighting?

Rayquaza's just a big strong dragon Pokemon in the anime, no divinity involved (proven by its lack of appearance during the Kyogre/Groudon hour).

Well, in that case Deoxys is just a big, ugly space-thing and you need to kick yourself for mentioning his psychoboost. I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how Lugia, as a Pokemon who your term of god-status clearly applies to, could be beaten by Team Rocket, if only temporarily.

No...think of them more like...I guess "elves" or "nymphs" would be the best analogy (a teeny tiny bit of divine power in each one, but can combine that power on occasion for the bigger stuff).

Well, if that's true, then we could simply view the legendary Pokemon as uber-elves, or elves with a higher-then-normal degree of divine power, rather then gods.

Forci Stikane
December 3rd, 2006, 02:21 PM
Well, I happen to NOT be a non-christian, and I'm a bit offended that you just compared the man who saved me from my sins and should be the most important person in my life to a blue freak who rules the ocean. Ho-oh is more like Jesus then any other Pokemon, what with his ability to give people new life. Don't make religious comparisons to figures outside of any religion you follow, because chances are you will make a mistake and offend someone. Please, delete the reference in your post, and I will delete the one in mine. I don't want this to become a debate that extends beyond whether or not the legendaries in the Pokemon world are the supreme beings there. Manaphy is not a good Christ-paralell because it never sacrifices itself in order to save others- and to top it off, it is portrayed as a small child. Please refrain from any other Christ-references in regards to Pokemon. Thank you. Oh, and FYI, Christ is God if you are a Christian. I'd explain it to you, but this is not the time or the place to do so.


Just because I'm not Christian doesn't mean I don't know the ideas behind it OR that I haven't been one before, but I was more specifically referencing the "son of God" idea (which comes into play regardless of how you look at his story) than any of those others. If you can come up with a better figure to compare it to, then please share. Otherwise, I again apologize for offending, but I can't think of any other good way to say it...that last part did NOT come out right, though...

"Divinity" is a term exclusively applied to a god, period. Anyway, Kyogre/Groudon creating the earth is not a known fact, it is simply a legend. Their earlier battle may have produced cataclysms that changed the face of the earth, but they did not create it. Besides, if there was no earth at first, where the heck were they fighting?

"Divinity" can be applied to any divine being, whether it be a god, an angel, or a prophet.

Well, in that case Deoxys is just a big, ugly space-thing and you need to kick yourself for mentioning his psychoboost.

I didn't say he was a high-level Legendary. I just said that Psycho Boost was a Legendary-specific move that's been in the anime.

Well, if that's true, then we could simply view the legendary Pokemon as uber-elves, or elves with a higher-then-normal degree of divine power, rather then gods.

We COULD...but that would ruin the fun of the discussion ;)

Also, there's still those levels of Legendaries between the two--those almost nothing to do with divinity like the Regis & Lati@s, then those with a slight bit to do with it (Bird trio), then those with notable relation to divinity (usually those with legends circling around them, like Lugia--the bird trio actually goes between this level and the last one), and finally the major divinity ones, like Kyogre, Groudon, & Ho-oh.

Those "uber-elves" could fit in a lower level.

SBaby
December 3rd, 2006, 05:55 PM
Another thing you need to remember. Mythology or not, D&D or not, yes or not, ALL Gods will tell you that they are invincible, even when they aren't.

Elite MarcoPolo
December 8th, 2006, 08:03 AM
Honestly this arguement has been going on for (p)ages!

Aruseus is the only PokeGod.
THIS IS POKEMON, NOT REAL LIFE!

Pokemon is just like another videogame.
Legendary Pokemon, hard to see, hard to catch, Uber Stats...

ARE ONE OF A KIND! The Anime once had a baby Lugia, maybe there are not really.

In a general sense, speaking for the Pokemon Anime, and also the games, they are not one of a kind.
Regarding to a general sense, if in the game, the player got 2 of the same Legendaries, by trade/cheating, the game doesn't restrict more then 1. Maybe it was not programmed, or they really allowed it.

Legendary Pokemon, with No Egg Groups or Gender, may be considered 1 of a kind per game. That is a better sense of putting it.
*Other common genderless Pokemon, like Beldum, Magemite they have a Gender Unknown, or Nuetral egg... They can be breeded...


Speaking on the context of Pokemon Gods...
Aruseus may be the only one, if the game says so, then I said so...
Nothing else to put it the anime and game are the masters what of happens every episode.
Please stop argueing!

SBaby
December 9th, 2006, 12:25 PM
Honestly this arguement has been going on for (p)ages!

Aruseus is the only PokeGod.
THIS IS POKEMON, NOT REAL LIFE!


D&D isn't real life either, and it has Gods. Why is it that people think that everything that is fantasy can't have Gods or God-like beings?

Now why did I bring up D&D? Well, that I CAN answer. See, Pokemon has more in common with D&D than it does with ANY OTHER FRANCHISE!!! Even Dragon Quest! Here's a small list of a few.

- Both Pokemon and D&D have God-like beings. They're called Gods in D&D and Legendary Pokemon in... Pokemon. I don't know if they'd be considered Gods, but they're definitely comparable.

- Both Pokemon and D&D have magical artifacts.

- The premise of the two is practically identical. A hero, or party of heroes, goes out adventuring into a fantasy world full of monsters, treasure, and magic.

- There's death in both Pokemon and D&D.

- Three words: MewTwo and Drizzt. This one shouldn't need any explanation.

Yes, there's more than that. If you want a complete list, you can probably find it on a Wizards of the Coast site.

Scarlet Weather
December 11th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Umm... D&D and Pokemon? Alike? Jeez, you're way out of genre.

Some noticeable differences:

In Pokemon, death is mentioned only in context of the Pokemon Tower or Mt. Pyre- your character or Pokemon never experiences death. In D&D, you are in constant danger of some big, nasty thing with sharp teeth ripping your head off.

The only magical artifacts in Pokemon are the beggining flute, red chain, and red/blue orb. Nothing else that is remotely magical exists. There is a much higher profiliation of magical artifacts in D&D.

The Legendaries are not Gods, period. They are Ubers. I don't see a god getting caught by a kid in the games, and thinking about it, even in mythology gods cannot be rivaled by anything but another god, or at the very least a powerful demi-god. In Pokemon, on the other hand, humans have been able to take down certain legendaries with little to no effort.

By the way, in reference to Pokemon "Claims of Divinity"... there are none made in the anime. Ho-oh's connection to Entei, Raikou, and Suicune only exists in the games and manga for example, and Kyogre and Groudon are never named as creators of the land and sea in the anime. They are bascially treated as powerful, ancient Pokemon. (Come to think of it, I don't even remember a single anime Pokemon as being reffered to as a legendary, let alone a god.) That's another thing too- are the legendary Pokemon ever referred to as gods, except in myths? Answer that, please!

Sorry for my abscence from this thread, I completely forgot about it between school, the latest Naruto episode, and my fanfic.

Forci Stikane
December 11th, 2006, 05:48 PM
By the way, in reference to Pokemon "Claims of Divinity"... there are none made in the anime. Ho-oh's connection to Entei, Raikou, and Suicune only exists in the games and manga for example, and Kyogre and Groudon are never named as creators of the land and sea in the anime. They are bascially treated as powerful, ancient Pokemon. (Come to think of it, I don't even remember a single anime Pokemon as being reffered to as a legendary, let alone a god.)

WRONG.

YES THEY DID. Ho-oh's connection to the Dogs WAS mentioned, for instance in the episode with Eusine, where Morty (or someone--I'm pretty sure it was Morty, though) commented that the Dogs were Ho-oh's messengers and were sent to watch humanity (Morty even made a comment about how Ho-oh was probably watching them at the time and how he wondered what Ho-oh was thinking). And they DID mention Kyogre & Groudon creating the sea and land. And a LOT of them have been referred to as Legendary (in fact, pretty much ALL of them).

...Have you really watched all the episodes or did you just catch them once in a while? Because if you didn't watch them all, then you might not want to make absolute statements (always, never, etc).

Scarlet Weather
December 12th, 2006, 12:51 PM
...Have you really watched all the episodes or did you just catch them once in a while? Because if you didn't watch them all, then you might not want to make absolute statements (always, never, etc).

Le Gasp... you have found me out. I don't remember Groudon/Kyogre being named as land/sea creators, and I saw most of the Advanced Generation episodes, but I don't remember that particular one. I must have stopped watching for a while then... I only remember the Kyogre/Groudon fight. Speaking of which, as I recall Team Aqua and Team Magma captured Groudon and Kyogre for a while- they were unable to control either Pokemon, but both were still caught. I still don't remember the word legendary being applied to anything but the birds, and I'm leaving them out of the discussion. So yeah, I'm suitably chastised, but I still don't think the legendary Pokemon were meant to be viewed as gods- they seem more like forces of nature to me.

dakelland12
December 19th, 2006, 01:24 PM
are now there aguments . .

Scarlet Weather
December 21st, 2006, 02:07 PM
are now there aguments . .

To quote I don't know how many manga characters: "..."

'Nuff said there.

J
January 10th, 2007, 12:55 PM
Last I checked, Aruseus is the only Pokemon classified as "God Pokemon". :\

Goku Goku
January 10th, 2007, 11:57 PM
I wouldn't go as far as saying the Pokemon are 'gods' really. They may be powerful, but they're not immortal (I don't think). Aruseus is closest ot being depicted as a Pokemon god, but it's only a legend...he could just be a demi-god of some sort. :\

SBaby
January 18th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Umm... D&D and Pokemon? Alike? Jeez, you're way out of genre.

Some noticeable differences:

In Pokemon, death is mentioned only in context of the Pokemon Tower or Mt. Pyre- your character or Pokemon never experiences death. In D&D, you are in constant danger of some big, nasty thing with sharp teeth ripping your head off.

The only magical artifacts in Pokemon are the beggining flute, red chain, and red/blue orb. Nothing else that is remotely magical exists. There is a much higher profiliation of magical artifacts in D&D.

The Legendaries are not Gods, period. They are Ubers. I don't see a god getting caught by a kid in the games, and thinking about it, even in mythology gods cannot be rivaled by anything but another god, or at the very least a powerful demi-god. In Pokemon, on the other hand, humans have been able to take down certain legendaries with little to no effort.

By the way, in reference to Pokemon "Claims of Divinity"... there are none made in the anime. Ho-oh's connection to Entei, Raikou, and Suicune only exists in the games and manga for example, and Kyogre and Groudon are never named as creators of the land and sea in the anime. They are bascially treated as powerful, ancient Pokemon. (Come to think of it, I don't even remember a single anime Pokemon as being reffered to as a legendary, let alone a god.) That's another thing too- are the legendary Pokemon ever referred to as gods, except in myths? Answer that, please!

Sorry for my abscence from this thread, I completely forgot about it between school, the latest Naruto episode, and my fanfic.

Wait, are we talking about the games, or Anime?

See, there's death in both, but in the Anime, it's simply called 'leaving the world'. Also, yes, we know it's impossible to 'die' in the games, but I guarantee that if a Trainer took enough hits in the Anime, they'd eventually keel over.

Magical artifacts we've seen: Flute, Chain, Dragon Fang (or something along those lines), all those stones (almost two dozen now), the two orbs, three other orbs from the second movie, another orb in Movie 5, GS Ball (maybe), and probably several others I'm forgetting about. And yes, I understand that some of these are only Magical Items, and not Artifacts. Point is, in one's lifetime, they're not supposed to realistically see EVERY magical artifact there is (that applies to both Pokemon AND D&D). Otherwise, I'm sure the world would've been destroyed several times over already.

The Legendaries may or may not be Gods in the Anime (there is no definitive evidence to point either way). In the game, they're just regular Pokemon, since they can be beaten just like any other opponent. But remember, game mechanics don't necessarily work the same way in 'real life' (otherwise, Aeris would have been revived with a Phoenix Down). In the Anime, it usually takes either a Legendary, or some sort of major WOMD or magical item to take down another Legendary. There has never been an exception to this rule. The Gods can also be defeated in D&D (we've beaten a few of them ourselves).

Remember also that not every Legendary Pokemon is considered to be on that 'god-like' level. There's main Legendaries and also sub-Legendaries. They aren't identified as such, but the difference in power is obvious. For instance, Charizard could take out Articuno in the Battle Frontier, but he'd never stand a whim of a chance against the one from the second movie, who could control the winter weather.

Games = More Like Dragon Quest
Anime = More Like D&D

danielthmaniel
January 19th, 2007, 08:03 PM
I believe that in many refrences, some Pokemon have been portrayed as a god-like figure. Honestly, if you look at Ho-oh, for example, it is somewhat portrayed as godlike. I think the argument that they can be caputured in games, may simply be because of public interest in capturing. People would be frustrated to know that there's a new Pokemon that is impossible to catch. ;)

Alter Ego
January 20th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Nyah, how dare you people get in an argument about legendaries without inviting me? xO

The way I see it, this discussion seems to be a bit too focused on arguing divinity in christian terms. This is a bit of an odd choice, seeing as how there are multiple pokémon with divine attributes ascribed to them (I.e. Polytheism) whereas christianity is a monotheistic religion. There are also plenty of older religions where even gods aren't defined as perfect and all-powerful beings (E.g. the gods in Greek or even Viking mythology certainly all possessed very human flaws such as anger and envy) and where there are different leves of divinity (Higher and lesser deities, demigods etc.) which, I believe, is the case with the legendaries. Also, I swear that there are cases of demigods and even mortals overthrowing lesser deities, just can't recall the specifics at the moment. >.<

It's true that not all legendaries amount to this (The Regis and Mewtwo are man-made, so obviously they're to be excluded, and the Latis are actually just very rare herd pokémon (As can be seen in the pokédex data) so they aren't really divine in their own right either...except if they're like the pokémon world substitute of angels, but that's a pretty shaky analogy. xP), but others have very sound claims for divinity (E.g. Kyogre and Groudon being able to shape the face of the earth at will or Celebi being able to move in time and bring renewed life to plants (Again, see pokédex)) so arguing that they aren't divine because they aren't omnipotent like the christian God is just narrow-minded, imo.

Divinity in pokémon would simply have a system of divided power (As with polytheistic religions or DnD if you want to go there) as opposed to one deity being all powerful. Some pokémon also have claims for position as lesser deities or mythological figures such as Moltres being a bringer of spring or Articuno acting like a reaper for lost wanderers (Again, see pokédex for both). Arguments like 'it was defeated in the anime'...let's not even go there, the anime has been the host of some incredibly stupid things with the current writing team in charge. <.<

As for the worship thing: there's actually a shrine dedicated to Celebi in the G/S/C games, which implies at least some kind of worship. Also, the legendary birds were refered to as gods in the whole 'disturb not the balance' thing in The Power of One. Again, proof that they at least used to be revered as gods. Oh, and concerning the 'it's just a legend' thing...isn't believeing in things that can't be proven part of what religion is about as well? Let's not be hypocritical here, a legendary-based religion would be just as valid as any of the ones in the real world (In fact, it would perhaps be a bit more valid as the legendaries actually have been sighted in more recent times and actually exist in the same world as the worshipers).

So in short, there's plenty of evidence to support the treatment of certain legendaries as divine beings, even though this matter has been largely avoided in the anime and manga, no doubt in an attempt to appease the more devotedly religious populace.

Goku Goku
January 20th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Hmm...in the Pokemon world, it seems every Pokemon could potentiallt be worshipped in some ways, only the legendaries being in a more higher rank. :\

Alter Ego
January 21st, 2007, 03:17 AM
That, it seems to me, is an over-generalization. Can you imagine anyone worhsiping something man-made and weak like a Beldum? And how about the dirt-common ones like Caterpie, Weedle, Rattata, Pidgey etc.? Unless you're going with some kind of nature spirit religion (In which the divine is believed to exist in all living beings) then arguing that every pokémon could be worshiped isn't really that credible. xP

Water Pokemon Godess
April 14th, 2009, 11:58 AM
i think they are gods but my lvl 100 Poliwrath is like a god to me he is almost undefeatable

randomspot555
April 14th, 2009, 01:00 PM
This is one of the few instances where the anime takes a drastically different approach. "Legendary Pokemon" become overpowered, and if they are "used" by a trainer, it's usually a mutual agreenment rather than a clear capture. They're often shown as having some sort of control over the Earth or nature itself, and need to be free to keep that control (Movie 2).

But just because they're powerful does not mean they are God, a god, divine, a deity, etc... regardless of what religion(s) you're using as a basis for a god. They're seen in the anime much as ancient cultures in the real world saw some animals: Ancient cultures worshiped them but modern culture know they're just Pokemon, albeit really powerful with an extent of control over elements.

And there's a difference between a powerful attack and control over elements. A powerful attack is just something that's more than it normally is. It's still confined to where the battle is happening. Just like when "Earthquake" is used but the city doesn't collapse.

But a legendary Pokemon has more power than just an attack. It can control the rain or snow or fire or whatever more than a pokemon using the elements to attack.

In the games, all "Legendary Pokemon" means is "A Pokemon deemed Legendary by Gamefreak." There's no basis that legendary=powerful because flat out, some are quite bad in battles. Many aren't, but some, particularly a few of the birds and the dog trio. Other "rules" such as gender, ability to breed, one-time capture have also been thrown out in subsequent generations.

It's also worth studying Japanese culture and the religions it follows. Christianity and other western religions like Islam and Judaism are the EXTREME minority. I'd be surprised if Gamefreak even employs a single Christian. But parallels between legends and the religion of Shinto could certainly be made.