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Poké King
December 26th, 2006, 01:32 PM
After the first like 5 episodes this has popped in my head and every since all the other seasons its gone from what's up with Ash to WTF is wrong with Ash. I say what's up with Ash because there are a lot of things he does do and doesn't do that don't really make much sense considering he wants to become a Pokémon Master, they include:

1) Why doesn't Ash ever capture Pokémon? I mean sure he captured a few but most of them weren't like "Oo I see a *blank* and wanna capture it", they were more like "Hey I came across *blank* and it likes me so I'm gonna capture it" I mean even Misty back in the day if I recall talked about how Ash didn't really capture the Pokémon he had on him which then prompted him to capture his Krabby. Plus when you take in account he has had numerous chances to do so, some of which offered pretty good Pokémon. So if he wants to be a Pokémon Master as he stated a lot back in the day why would he do nothing to really get there, it kind of reminds me of Naruto always talking about being Hokage but in the end doing really nothing to do so.

2) Why doesn't Ash battle much? Ya he battles Gym Leaders, Frontier Brains and rarely fellow Trainers but mostly he doesn't battle at all, nor does he train his Pokémon in others ways to make up for that fact.

3) #2 brings me to another question which is how does Ash win battles? I mean his lack of variety of Pokémon as well as a lack of training for them should mean he doesn't win much but practically every person he faces he beats and if he doesn't beat them the first time he does the second. And add to it that he is incompetent in battling most of the time like using Normal Type Moves against Ghost Types or sticking with a Pokémon even if he has a horrible disadvantage with it because there low on HP or have a Type disadvantage or something else. To me it seems that he wings most of his battles and wins by luck usually just like May does in Contest.

In the end the only thing Ash seems to do right is actively pursue gaining his Badges for the Region he is in. And treat his Pokémon right of course.

So what are your thoughts on this?

Mudkip85
December 26th, 2006, 04:40 PM
Just to be a real pain im going to try to counter argue each of your points XD.

Firstly i think to be a pokemon master as Ash wants to be, he feels that he doesnt need a wide range of pokemon to achieve his goal but instead wants to focus on the pokemon he has and train them to his best of ability. Consider also that Ash also likes having close relationships with his pokemon and we have to think that hes not going to have this with every single pokemon he meets so why catch?

Secondly, if Ash was to battle non stop in every episode it would get very boring for us so the odd occasional one on one trainer battles are enough to keep us going until the next gym. I also think that having side adventures and obstacles is a nice change from battling. And if you think about it Ash does battle 'everyday' . . . with TEAM ROCKET!

Lastly Ash has skill! Despite his lack in pokemon he does have variety and uses their abilities in a clever and inventive ways, also using his surroundings to aid his pokemon during battle. However one thing i cant argue you with you about sadly is May winning her contests, as most of the time luck aids her in her victories for example her Munchlax's metronome turning into something spectacular!

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 26th, 2006, 05:22 PM
Just to be a real pain im going to try to counter argue each of your points XD.

Firstly i think to be a pokemon master as Ash wants to be, he feels that he doesnt need a wide range of pokemon to achieve his goal but instead wants to focus on the pokemon he has and train them to his best of ability. Consider also that Ash also likes having close relationships with his pokemon and we have to think that hes not going to have this with every single pokemon he meets so why catch?

Secondly, if Ash was to battle non stop in every episode it would get very boring for us so the odd occasional one on one trainer battles are enough to keep us going until the next gym. I also think that having side adventures and obstacles is a nice change from battling. And if you think about it Ash does battle 'everyday' . . . with TEAM ROCKET!

Lastly Ash has skill! Despite his lack in pokemon he does have variety and uses their abilities in a clever and inventive ways, also using his surroundings to aid his pokemon during battle. However one thing i cant argue you with you about sadly is May winning her contests, as most of the time luck aids her in her victories for example her Munchlax's metronome turning into something spectacular!

~Kipper~
Ya he does battle Team Rocket everyday but at the same time there so weak its not really any kind of training or experience for his Pokémon which is why I didn't count them. As for him battling cleverly and inventively, yes he does do that some times but a lot of times not so much. Also I never said he was incompetent all the time, just most of the time. I mean come on how can you forget that Normal Type Moves are ineffective against Ghost Types, the first time he did it back in the day was to teach the audience about the game but recently I saw him do it and that don't make sense.

As for side adventures, ya there good but I think the series has become more about the adventure of traveling and not the adventure of training, raising & battling your Pokémon which is what the series is supposed to be about. I mean if it wasn't for May and her Contest we barely see any battles on the show so though she may be an incompetent Coordinator she does give us battles.

Mudkip85
December 26th, 2006, 07:09 PM
Ya he does battle Team Rocket everyday but at the same time there so weak its not really any kind of training or experience for his Pokémon which is why I didn't count them. As for him battling cleverly and inventively, yes he does do that some times but a lot of times not so much. Also I never said he was incompetent all the time, just most of the time. I mean come on how can you forget that Normal Type Moves are ineffective against Ghost Types, the first time he did it back in the day was to teach the audience about the game but recently I saw him do it and that don't make sense.

As for side adventures, ya there good but I think the series has become more about the adventure of traveling and not the adventure of training, raising & battling your Pokémon which is what the series is supposed to be about. I mean if it wasn't for May and her Contest we barely see any battles on the show so though she may be an incompetent Coordinator she does give us battles.

As for his mistake on forgetting that normal type moves are inefecctive on ghost type pokemon i cant say much for that apart from a dumb mistake which i dont think any trainer would make. We have to consider aswell that Ash is still learning which means that he would make the occasional mistake even if it is extremely dumb.

I want to ask you aswell if you mean you have only watched the first five episodes of the first season, because if so i dont think you can really judge Ash based on that limited amount of time. As the seasons go on for me personally, the episodes and storylines become more complex and interesting. So just give hime a chance if you really have only eatched the first five episodes! XD

~Kipper~

Scales
December 26th, 2006, 07:33 PM
Yeah I see what you mean

As well
WHY DONT ASH"S POKEMON EVOLVE?

Pikachu I understand

But the only pokemon he ever evolved were I think is charmander and his chickorita. I cant remember though.

Even team rockets weak ass pokemon evolved

SBaby
December 26th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Just to be a real pain im going to try to counter argue each of your points XD.

Firstly i think to be a pokemon master as Ash wants to be, he feels that he doesnt need a wide range of pokemon to achieve his goal but instead wants to focus on the pokemon he has and train them to his best of ability. Consider also that Ash also likes having close relationships with his pokemon and we have to think that hes not going to have this with every single pokemon he meets so why catch?
[/I][/B]

You're partially right. But you're forgetting the selling point.

Basically, he wants to focus on the 'starters' and a few other Pokemon in each new Region, forsaking the previous ones for all but a few choice episodes. See, what people don't realize is that while Pokemon is clearly an Anime, it is also a big commercial for the games, so of course Ash's gonna use the 'current trend' of Pokemon. That's why Ash decided to 'start over' in Hoenn by 'Oaking' his Pokemon. Do you honestly think it was for the sake of his relations with Pokemon, or some big hidden plot that's been secretly building for over three years? No. It's just to sell the new game.

But before you get mad, you gotta realize that this isn't even a new concept. It's been done time and time again (and it's practically foolproof, from what I see). Here's a few examples.

In Transformers the Movie, how many of the original Autobots were killed in order to 'usher in' (sell) the new ones? And didn't lack of popularity with the infamous Death of Optimus end in him being revived?

In He-Man, they had an entire movie made to bring in the She-Ra franchise (which is probably still considered to be the most successful spin-off since Jetsons), and sell the toys.

My point, it happens everywhere, so why should Pokemon be any different?

As for Pokemon Types, I'll say this, and mark my words. There'll come a time when types become so numerous and intermingled with one another due to the sheer number, that they'll be either completely redone, or phased out completely to make the Anime easier to make. Think about it. There's already more than ten (and I hear that two more are on the way). What happens when we get up to twenty, or even thirty?

Death Rogers
December 26th, 2006, 07:50 PM
I think Ash's incompitance and idiocy are mostly for comic relief.

It's stereotypical cartoon tactic. Most of today's anime protoganists are some kid 10-15 who are cluumsy and eat a lot. This basically discribes Ash.

The writers make Ash the way he is for comic relief. That's all.

Mudkip85
December 26th, 2006, 07:50 PM
Yeah I see what you mean

As well
WHY DONT ASH"S POKEMON EVOLVE?

Pikachu I understand

But the only pokemon he ever evolved were I think is charmander and his chickorita. I cant remember though.

Even team rockets weak ass pokemon evolved

Well to be honest with you i agree that mainly his pokemon has not evolved but ones that have evolved include.

Charmander
Pidgotto
Caterpie
Krabby
Chikorita
Phanpy
Taillow
Treecko
Snorunt

Not many but there are a few.

~Kipper~

Death Rogers
December 26th, 2006, 07:51 PM
Well to be honest with you i agree that mainly his pokemon has not evolved but ones that have evolved include.

Charmander
Pidgotto
Caterpie
Krabby
Chikorita
Phanpy
Taillow
Treecko
Snorunt

Not many but there are a few.

~Kipper~
That's a lot considering the little he has.

Mudkip85
December 26th, 2006, 07:56 PM
That's a lot considering the little he has.

Well to be honest its not even half the amount he owns have evolved. 9/19 of his pokemon have evoloved which is pretty low. =D

~Kipper~

Death Rogers
December 26th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Well to be honest its not even half the amount he owns have evolved. 9/19 of his pokemon have evoloved which is pretty low. =D

~Kipper~
But not every one of his Pokemon can evolve. Muk, Snorlax, Herecross, Noctowl and Torkaol have no evolutions.

Poké King
December 26th, 2006, 07:59 PM
As for his mistake on forgetting that normal type moves are inefecctive on ghost type pokemon i cant say much for that apart from a dumb mistake which i dont think any trainer would make. We have to consider aswell that Ash is still learning which means that he would make the occasional mistake even if it is extremely dumb.

I want to ask you aswell if you mean you have only watched the first five episodes of the first season, because if so i dont think you can really judge Ash based on that limited amount of time. As the seasons go on for me personally, the episodes and storylines become more complex and interesting. So just give hime a chance if you really have only eatched the first five episodes! XD

~Kipper~
Yes in the beginning he made that mistake and I understood but in recent episodes he made the mistake after competing in a ton of leagues and getting a ton of Badges therefore shouldn't of made the mistake. And I said after the first 5 episodes I began to be like what is wrong with Ash, I didn't say I watched only 5 episodes as I have watched every episode to come out in America so far pretty much.

Yeah I see what you mean

As well
WHY DONT ASH"S POKEMON EVOLVE?

Pikachu I understand

But the only pokemon he ever evolved were I think is charmander and his chickorita. I cant remember though.

Even team rockets weak ass pokemon evolved
Most of Ash's Pokémon don't evolve for the very same reasons I gave above which is that he doesn't train them or battle with them much therefore there not gonna get anywhere Level wise yet his unevolved Pokémon always seem to kick the ass of other Pokémon who clearly are greater Level wise.

As for Pokémon who haven't evolved yet, they are: Totodile, Cyndaquil, Bulbasaur and Squirtle. When it comes to the first two they probably haven't evolved because of lack of training, Bulbasaur if you recall chose to stay that way rather than evolve into Ivysaur very early in the series and Squirtle should of evolved though maybe before Ash got him he chose to not evolve on his own as well.

You're partially right. But you're forgetting the selling point.

Basically, he wants to focus on the 'starters' and a few other Pokemon in each new Region, forsaking the previous ones for all but a few choice episodes. See, what people don't realize is that while Pokemon is clearly an Anime, it is also a big commercial for the games, so of course Ash's gonna use the 'current trend' of Pokemon. That's why Ash decided to 'start over' in Hoenn by 'Oaking' his Pokemon. Do you honestly think it was for the sake of his relations with Pokemon, or some big hidden plot that's been secretly building for over three years? No. It's just to sell the new game.

......
As for Pokemon Types, I'll say this, and mark my words. There'll come a time when types become so numerous and intermingled with one another due to the sheer number, that they'll be either completely redone, or phased out completely to make the Anime easier to make. Think about it. There's already more than ten. What happens when we get up to twenty, or even thirty?
Ya I do understand why he changed up after every Region, course if you think they be trying to sell it good they make him capture more so we see more on a regular basis.

As for Types it will take forever to get to 30 and considering how tapped they are for ideas at this point as shown by Pearl & Diamond I doubt they could get to 30 and probably not even 20.

But not every one of his Pokemon can evolve. Muk, Snorlax, Herecross, Noctowl and Torkaol have no evolutions.
Ya Ash always captures Pokémon who don't evolve, wonder why? Maybe so we don't notice so easily that he barely trains them lol.

Scales
December 26th, 2006, 08:29 PM
Well to be honest with you i agree that mainly his pokemon has not evolved but ones that have evolved include.

Charmander
Pidgotto
Caterpie
Krabby
Chikorita
Phanpy
Taillow
Treecko
Snorunt

Not many but there are a few.

~Kipper~

Dont forget his mankey. It evolved and he gave it away. His kingler he barely uses and what happened to his Bayleaf? Phanpy EVOLVED? I didnt know that and I didnt know he had a snorunt. The rest he released. Like his butterfree. It was like his best friend and I always liked how he had it. Same with his pigeott. It was his right hand pokemon next to Pikachu. I hate how what ever cartoon company makes the anime got rid of his best pokemon

But the entire reason those pokemon dont evolve is because they have a very good potential when they level up. If they evolved it would have made some super pokemon that would have made the game to easy. Thats why legendarys dont lvl up. I mean Heracross is self explanitory

Torcoal is a very powerfull pokemon if you give it the right moves. Snorlax and muc are very powerfull. Especialy Snorlax since it can heal itself and do an attack in the process.

as to the fact of why ash is so weak

I think that Ash is supposed to be the opposite of Red. Red is a person who catches very powerfull pokemon and didnt sleep in on the first day. In fact in crystal when you face him in mount silver he is omega powerfull. He has lvl 70 pokemon.

Mudkip85
December 27th, 2006, 03:10 AM
Dont forget his mankey. It evolved and he gave it away. His kingler he barely uses and what happened to his Bayleaf? Phanpy EVOLVED? I didnt know that and I didnt know he had a snorunt. The rest he released. Like his butterfree. It was like his best friend and I always liked how he had it. Same with his pigeott. It was his right hand pokemon next to Pikachu. I hate how what ever cartoon company makes the anime got rid of his best pokemon

But the entire reason those pokemon dont evolve is because they have a very good potential when they level up. If they evolved it would have made some super pokemon that would have made the game to easy. Thats why legendarys dont lvl up. I mean Heracross is self explanitory

Torcoal is a very powerfull pokemon if you give it the right moves. Snorlax and muc are very powerfull. Especialy Snorlax since it can heal itself and do an attack in the process.

as to the fact of why ash is so weak

I think that Ash is supposed to be the opposite of Red. Red is a person who catches very powerfull pokemon and didnt sleep in on the first day. In fact in crystal when you face him in mount silver he is omega powerfull. He has lvl 70 pokemon.

Yeah good theory but the reason why you cant remember Ash catching a snorunt was because i dont think the eoisode in the ice caves where he caught it was aired!. Also i guess Ash releases all his pokemon 'for the good of other pokemon', as for example Butterfree ws released to be with the pink butterfree and pideot was let go by Ash to protect other weaker pokemon so it became the leader of a certain area.

~Kipper~

Scarlet Weather
December 27th, 2006, 05:05 AM
Dont forget his mankey. It evolved and he gave it away. His kingler he barely uses and what happened to his Bayleaf? Phanpy EVOLVED? I didnt know that and I didnt know he had a snorunt. The rest he released. Like his butterfree. It was like his best friend and I always liked how he had it. Same with his pigeott. It was his right hand pokemon next to Pikachu. I hate how what ever cartoon company makes the anime got rid of his best pokemon

But the entire reason those pokemon dont evolve is because they have a very good potential when they level up. If they evolved it would have made some super pokemon that would have made the game to easy. Thats why legendarys dont lvl up. I mean Heracross is self explanitory

Torcoal is a very powerfull pokemon if you give it the right moves. Snorlax and muc are very powerfull. Especialy Snorlax since it can heal itself and do an attack in the process.

as to the fact of why ash is so weak

I think that Ash is supposed to be the opposite of Red. Red is a person who catches very powerfull pokemon and didnt sleep in on the first day. In fact in crystal when you face him in mount silver he is omega powerfull. He has lvl 70 pokemon.


Umm... I'd dispute that theory, since Red is based on Ash. Red came second, don't forget, so he couldn't have been used to become the "Polar Opposite" of Ash. The reason Ash acts like an idiot is really only for one reason- he's not the brightest tool in the shed, that's all. And I'd like to dispute the fact that he doesn't train his Pokemon- it is possible, after all, that he could be training them off-screen, as in, between episodes. My main gripe about the anime these days is that I can no longer consider the idea of an AshXPikachu relationship due to Pikachu's being confirmed a freakin' male. I hate Pokemon anime writers. *sporks* I mean, I could write some of these episodes- all I'd have to do is get hopped up on adrenaline!

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Like I said. Ash is supposed to be stupid. It's for comic relief. If he won every battle and was really smart than it would be boring.

Latium
December 27th, 2006, 05:33 AM
I have to agree with both points here. But like the art critic said, ash really isnt all that bright. as a matter of fact him, May, Max, and brock get on my nerves sometimes. (almost always). I mean every time team rocket disguises themselves (even though i can hardly call their getups "disguises"), Ash and the gang always fall for it. No affense, but how gullable can you get?

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 05:35 AM
I have to agree with both points here. But like the art critic said, ash really isnt all that bright. as a matter of fact him, May, Max, and brock get on my nerves sometimes. (almost always). I mean every time team rocket disguises themselves (even though i can hardly call their getups "disguises"), Ash and the gang always fall for it. No affense, but how gullable can you get?
For the third frikkin' time. It's for comic relief!!

Poké King
December 27th, 2006, 05:37 AM
Yeah good theory but the reason why you cant remember Ash catching a snorunt was because i dont think the eoisode in the ice caves where he caught it was aired!.
The Snorunt episode aired here.

And I'd like to dispute the fact that he doesn't train his Pokemon- it is possible, after all, that he could be training them off-screen, as in, between episodes. My main gripe about the anime these days is that I can no longer consider the idea of an AshXPikachu relationship due to Pikachu's being confirmed a freakin' male. I hate Pokemon anime writers. *sporks* I mean, I could write some of these episodes- all I'd have to do is get hopped up on adrenaline!
Well, I never said he doesn't train his Pokémon, its just he doesn't do it a lot and ya he could be training in between episodes but I doubt as usually between episodes is when Ash & the gang travel from place to place so in every episode we don't have to see them going from point A to point B.

And lol about the Ash & Pikachu relationship being messed up by Pikachu being a boy, did you want them to get married or something? Though I think it be cute if Pikachu was a girl though he seems more like a male in the way he acts so if he was a girl people be like why was he acting that way before.

I mean every time team rocket disguises themselves (even though i can hardly call their getups "disguises"), Ash and the gang always fall for it. No affense, but how gullable can you get?
Ya lol, like in the episode where they were at the Pewter City Gym as supposed interior designers and somehow Brock, the gang as well as his whole family couldn't see that Meowth was a Meowth though they thought he was strange at least.

For the third frikkin' time. It's for comic relief!!
Ya I know but still its stupid and plus I think it could be said Jesse, James & Meowth are there strictly for comedic relief. As well as extend episode length. :D

Latium
December 27th, 2006, 05:45 AM
and another thing. Have you ever noticed that in intense battles the pokemon never die (they could get some serious whiplash from smashing into those walls). I mean i understand the officials stopping the match, but i mean dont these pokemon ever get seriously hurt. (not including the time when team rocket's Chimeco got really sick, same with may's munchlax). the only time ive ever seen pokemon close to fatal injury was in the first pokemon movie, And they were only punching and slapping eachother.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 07:00 AM
Well, you have to remember 4kids owns Pokemon. They make it kid-friendly. The TV series aims at the 12 - Age groups. If it weren't for 4kids Pokemon would be a lot more violent. 4kids already banned like 9 episodes. They banned an episode just because they gave James breast implants to win a beauty contest.

The movies, however, are for some reason always more violent than the TV series.

Latium
December 27th, 2006, 07:07 AM
lol... yeah the movies are a little more violent. Just look at the first pokemon movie. The clone pokemon, and the real pokemon were pummeling eachother.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 07:08 AM
Not to mention Ash turned to stone.

Scarlet Weather
December 27th, 2006, 07:54 AM
And lol about the Ash & Pikachu relationship being messed up by Pikachu being a boy, did you want them to get married or something? Though I think it be cute if Pikachu was a girl though he seems more like a male in the way he acts so if he was a girl people be like why was he acting that way before.

No, of course not! I just thought it was insanely funny, and would explain why Ash has never begun any sort of romantic relationship with a human female. (Accent there being on "human"- I haven't given up hope on Altoshipping yet. I swear, I would go so crazy if only Latias was introduced as at the very least a recurring character. Okay, break's over now.) And yeah, Pikachu being a girl made sense to me- he doesn't really act too "guy-ish" since he was never given a confirmed gender up until D/P. Before that *insert expletive here* Mimiroru showed up, I had a few "make-fun-of-canon-shipping" shipping fics planned, including one involving Ash getting stuck as a Pikachu again, discovering his own Pikachu is in love with him, and basically going nuts, as well as a PikachuXGary's Umbreon fic which involved a whole lot of love letters going back and forth, and explanations for the seeming low intelligence of all main characters. (Pikachu was drugging them in order to make sure that they did not discover her secret love relationship with Umbreon.) It was so sad.... *cries*. And the reason I'm ixnaying the guyXguy Pikashipping is because Yaoi just disturbs me, with one notable exception.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 08:24 AM
Wait, Ash turned into a Pikachu and discovered Pikachu was physically attracted to him!?

Wow. Never would've thought Pikachu was homosexual.

Forci Stikane
December 27th, 2006, 11:00 AM
...Where's DC when you need him...?

*sigh* Okay. There is so much stuff wrong with this thread that I'm just going to jump in.

Well, you have to remember 4kids owns Pokemon.

LEAVE. NOW. A comment THAT uninformed merits banishment from discussion.

Why doesn't Ash ever capture Pokémon? I mean sure he captured a few but most of them weren't like "Oo I see a *blank* and wanna capture it", they were more like "Hey I came across *blank* and it likes me so I'm gonna capture it" I mean even Misty back in the day if I recall talked about how Ash didn't really capture the Pokémon he had on him which then prompted him to capture his Krabby. Plus when you take in account he has had numerous chances to do so, some of which offered pretty good Pokémon. So if he wants to be a Pokémon Master as he stated a lot back in the day why would he do nothing to really get there, it kind of reminds me of Naruto always talking about being Hokage but in the end doing really nothing to do so.

That's because most of those Pokemon shouldn't be captured. Sometimes it's best to leave them in their natural habitat. It isn't a game, where the creatures don't have "feelings". You don't go out and capture wild animals, just to bring them home as pets. You leave them where they are, because that's where they should be. The Pokemon Ash captures usually WANT to go with him, so he's smart enough to know when to catch and when not to catch.

Why doesn't Ash battle much? Ya he battles Gym Leaders, Frontier Brains and rarely fellow Trainers but mostly he doesn't battle at all, nor does he train his Pokémon in others ways to make up for that fact.

We don't see everyhting that goes on every day. He could have battles with May & Brock daily, for all we know. And what about that training to teach his Pokemon new moves (cite: Volt Tackle & Bullet Seed)? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist (like the restrooms...).

#2 brings me to another question which is how does Ash win battles? I mean his lack of variety of Pokémon as well as a lack of training for them should mean he doesn't win much but practically every person he faces he beats and if he doesn't beat them the first time he does the second. And add to it that he is incompetent in battling most of the time like using Normal Type Moves against Ghost Types or sticking with a Pokémon even if he has a horrible disadvantage with it because there low on HP or have a Type disadvantage or something else. To me it seems that he wings most of his battles and wins by luck usually just like May does in Contest.

...I'll start with the Normal v. Ghost comment first--the last time he competed against a Ghost-type, I believe, was early-mid Johto, almost two years before his latest match. People forget things. You'd probably forget about something like that, too, if you didn't deal with it for so long.

Now, as for the winning part, his Pokemon are stronger than you apparently think they are. He gets in quite a bit of training, and even though Team Rocket IS pathetically weak, there's still SOME experience there.

And as far as why he focuses on the same ones, what would you prefer, a few level 100s or a bunch of level 50s? The former, of course, and that's basically what Ash gets (if they even USED the level system in the Anime, but that's for an entirely different discussion).

As for side adventures, ya there good but I think the series has become more about the adventure of traveling and not the adventure of training, raising & battling your Pokémon which is what the series is supposed to be about. I mean if it wasn't for May and her Contest we barely see any battles on the show so though she may be an incompetent Coordinator she does give us battles.

Well, no duh. Of course the story's about the travelling. That's where the adventure comes from! After all, if you don't travel, then how are you supposed to see new things?

Most of Ash's Pokémon don't evolve for the very same reasons I gave above which is that he doesn't train them or battle with them much therefore there not gonna get anywhere Level wise yet his unevolved Pokémon always seem to kick the ass of other Pokémon who clearly are greater Level wise.

As for Pokémon who haven't evolved yet, they are: Totodile, Cyndaquil, Bulbasaur and Squirtle. When it comes to the first two they probably haven't evolved because of lack of training, Bulbasaur if you recall chose to stay that way rather than evolve into Ivysaur very early in the series and Squirtle should of evolved though maybe before Ash got him he chose to not evolve on his own as well.

They don't evolve because they A. don't want to, or B. the writers don't want them to. It is NOT a lack of strength. Even at Oak's lab, they're still getting exercise and growing stronger.

I must thank you, though, as your rants have been very fun to read, albeit lacking in the facts department.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 11:29 AM
LEAVE. NOW. A comment THAT uninformed merits banishment from discussion.
*Scratches Head* Saywha?

That comment wasn't uninformed. 4kids owns Pokemon. That's all you need to know for the rest of my post that you quoted.

Forci Stikane
December 27th, 2006, 12:03 PM
*Scratches Head* Saywha?

That comment wasn't uninformed. 4kids owns Pokemon. That's all you need to know for the rest of my post that you quoted.

I said leave. I meant LEAVE. 4Kids does not "own" Pokemon, nor do they have anything to do with it now.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 12:06 PM
I said leave. I meant LEAVE. 4Kids does not "own" Pokemon, nor do they have anything to do with it now.
Last I checked, 4kids did the English dubbing of Pokemon. That's what I meant by "owns".

And who are you to tell me to leave? You're not a mod nor an admin. I won't leave unless the creator of this thread, a mod, or an admin tells me to.

And if my information was proven false, I would not have to leave the thread. The most I would have to do is edit my post. And I will not do so until you can find information that proves me to be false.

Poké King
December 27th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Not to mention Ash turned to stone.
Well, it was either that or kill him so because it was for kids he turned to stone.

Wait, Ash turned into a Pikachu and discovered Pikachu was physically attracted to him!?

Wow. Never would've thought Pikachu was homosexual.
LOL

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 01:03 PM
Yeah. If they killed him then the series would be looooooooooong dead.

Poké King
December 27th, 2006, 05:04 PM
That's because most of those Pokemon shouldn't be captured. Sometimes it's best to leave them in their natural habitat. It isn't a game, where the creatures don't have "feelings". You don't go out and capture wild animals, just to bring them home as pets. You leave them where they are, because that's where they should be. The Pokemon Ash captures usually WANT to go with him, so he's smart enough to know when to catch and when not to catch.

Um last I checked the goal is to capture Pokémon whether its in the games or the Anime. And Ash isn't smart in how he catches Pokémon, it doesn't take a genious to say "Hey this Pokémon wants to battle so I will battle it then capture it" lol


We don't see everyhting that goes on every day. He could have battles with May & Brock daily, for all we know. And what about that training to teach his Pokemon new moves (cite: Volt Tackle & Bullet Seed)? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist (like the restrooms...).
He didn't teach Pikachu Volt Tackle, Pikachu learned it on his own and all Ash did was try to get him better at it. Besides I never said he didn't do any training, I just said he didn't do a lot of training.


...I'll start with the Normal v. Ghost comment first--the last time he competed against a Ghost-type, I believe, was early-mid Johto, almost two years before his latest match. People forget things. You'd probably forget about something like that, too, if you didn't deal with it for so long.
Ya but he wants to be a Pokémon Master and if I wanted to be the best at something I think I wouldn't forget one of the basics. I mean when he started out he didn't even know how to capture a Pokémon and ya he was just starting out but come on.


Now, as for the winning part, his Pokemon are stronger than you apparently think they are. He gets in quite a bit of training, and even though Team Rocket IS pathetically weak, there's still SOME experience there.
Ya but very little and how are they strong I mean they don't participate in many battles nor are trained much.


And as far as why he focuses on the same ones, what would you prefer, a few level 100s or a bunch of level 50s? The former, of course, and that's basically what Ash gets (if they even USED the level system in the Anime, but that's for an entirely different discussion).
Last I checked if he actually trained them right he could have a bunch of Level 100's.


Well, no duh. Of course the story's about the travelling. That's where the adventure comes from! After all, if you don't travel, then how are you supposed to see new things?
Ya but its also about capturing, training and raising Pokémon. And it seems it become more about them walking around and getting into crazy situations then doing any of those three things.


They don't evolve because they A. don't want to, or B. the writers don't want them to. It is NOT a lack of strength. Even at Oak's lab, they're still getting exercise and growing stronger.
Your forgot C they aren't trained hard enough to level up to evolve, you seem to think that isn't a possibility at all.


I must thank you, though, as your rants have been very fun to read, albeit lacking in the facts department.
Funny how you talk about facts when what facts have you given me, all you have given me is possible theories and speculation. The only real facts you listed was that he trained Pikachu to make him good at Volt Tackle and that he trained Treecko to do Bullet Seed but everything else was maybes and could be's like ya he could be battling Brock/Misty but I highly doubt it.

Death Rogers
December 27th, 2006, 06:08 PM
LOL Ichapokemr, you just got proved wrong in everything you said.

And you say I should leave this thread.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 05:18 AM
We don't see everyhting that goes on every day. He could have battles with May & Brock daily, for all we know. And what about that training to teach his Pokemon new moves (cite: Volt Tackle & Bullet Seed)? Just because we don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist (like the restrooms...).

Yeah i have to agreee here, for instance another example of this is when sometimes at the beginning of a show, we see Ash and Pikachu, running together on the beach or on the pavement. Training doesnt necessasarily mean just simply leveling up your pokemon by battling. Training by the running that Ash and Pikachu do together would also increase Pikachu's stamina stats. Ash actually does teach some moves to his pokemon to, take snorunt for example. It couldnt control or learn how to actually perform the attack by itself until Ash taught it to. So although Ash doesnt train intensivley, he does try to get his pokemon to develop and get physically and mentally stronger.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 12:14 PM
Yeah i have to agreee here, for instance another example of this is when sometimes at the beginning of a show, we see Ash and Pikachu, running together on the beach or on the pavement. Training doesnt necessasarily mean just simply leveling up your pokemon by battling. Training by the running that Ash and Pikachu do together would also increase Pikachu's stamina stats. Ash actually does teach some moves to his pokemon to, take snorunt for example. It couldnt control or learn how to actually perform the attack by itself until Ash taught it to. So although Ash doesnt train intensivley, he does try to get his pokemon to develop and get physically and mentally stronger.

~Kipper~
Um there is no Stamina Stat and he never taught Snorunt Ice Beam, he made him get better at it like with Pikachu and Volt Tackle. The only Pokémon of his that I recall he taught anything to was Treecko and Swellow, he taught them Bullet Seed & Aerial Ace. Beyond that all the Moves his Pokémon have known they learned themselves through growing stronger though as I said before I don't see how they grow so strong with the lack of training & battling. And even if running on the beach could be considered training it still wouldn't do that much.

Charaxes
December 28th, 2006, 12:30 PM
Okay! Okay!

Sorry, Ichi, I had a transcription to deal with. Anyway, I read this thread and I will post something after my errands (and I'll re-edit this.)

Actually, I do applaud SBaby and Ichi's POVs, but I do admire you taking a more analytical approach to this, Poke King. However, Ichi is right: the series is trying to make this a real world setting and thus, it's difficult to compensate the fantasy for the reality. Of course, I've thought the same with Ash a long time ago, I did. And then, I realized the anime is going to do whatever it wants and we've seen time and time again the producers not following the game canon, and it leads to a lot of broken expectations.

So, the easiest thing is not to think about it because, then, you realize how much they've dropped the ball. I like the thread, but keep it balanced. I'll post in depth later tonight if I can.

Forci Stikane
December 28th, 2006, 12:58 PM
Last I checked, 4kids did the English dubbing of Pokemon. That's what I meant by "owns".

And who are you to tell me to leave? You're not a mod nor an admin. I won't leave unless the creator of this thread, a mod, or an admin tells me to.

And if my information was proven false, I would not have to leave the thread. The most I would have to do is edit my post. And I will not do so until you can find information that proves me to be false.

...You haven't seen a single episode of the new season, have you? A statement that outdated would have to mean that you've not only missed ALL of Pokemon:Battle Frontier, but also haven't bothered to keep up with what's going on. Somebody that lazy/uncaring & outdated shouldn't be discussing the anime, IMO.

Poke King, the point that you seem to fail to grasp is that we don't see everything that goes on in the show, and the show's mechanics aren't the same as the game's. For instance, Um there is no Stamina Stat stamina might not be a real factor in the game, but it sure is in the anime, since those battles are "real" with creatures that tire out with prolonged work/battling.

Ya but its also about capturing, training and raising Pokémon. And it seems it become more about them walking around and getting into crazy situations then doing any of those three things.

...And how do you find those Pokemon to capture? By travelling, that's how.

Ya but he wants to be a Pokémon Master and if I wanted to be the best at something I think I wouldn't forget one of the basics.

You would if it was something you never had to deal with for about two years.

Your forgot C they aren't trained hard enough to level up to evolve, you seem to think that isn't a possibility at all.

It isn't, because a. evolution isn't based on level in the anime (or else how would TR's Pokemon be able to evolve?), and b. as I mentioned before, the game's level system doesn't exist in the anime.

Funny how you talk about facts when what facts have you given me, all you have given me is possible theories and speculation. The only real facts you listed was that he trained Pikachu to make him good at Volt Tackle and that he trained Treecko to do Bullet Seed but everything else was maybes and could be's like ya he could be battling Brock/Misty but I highly doubt it.

This whole thread is part-speculation...but if you can't trace my facts, then you might want to refresh yourself on the episodes, particularly Chronicles (in "The Legend of Thunder", Jimmy makes a particularly-notable mention on why to NOT capture a Legendary Dog) & Johto. And, considering how the episodes have opened/ended on battles already in progress (most recently when Brock's Mudkip evolved into Marshtomp), there's no doubt that there're battles going on when we can't see them.

EDIT: Oh, DC, I didn't see you there. About time.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 01:04 PM
Um there is no Stamina Stat

I actually was thinking more about the anime as although there is no actual stamina stat, its only normal for a pokemon to tire out eventually whilst battling. Therefore when i said that when Ash runs with pikachu its a form of training, well its true because it will increase the stamina of a pokemon so it will not tire out quickly in battle.

~Kipper~

jasonresno
December 28th, 2006, 01:15 PM
Um there is no Stamina Stat and he never taught Snorunt Ice Beam, he made him get better at it like with Pikachu and Volt Tackle. The only Pokémon of his that I recall he taught anything to was Treecko and Swellow, he taught them Bullet Seed & Aerial Ace. Beyond that all the Moves his Pokémon have known they learned themselves through growing stronger though as I said before I don't see how they grow so strong with the lack of training & battling. And even if running on the beach could be considered training it still wouldn't do that much.

Ok here goes:

The reason for Ash:

1)Why doesn't he catch more Pokemon?
--He doesn't NEED them. And were he to catch every Poke he sees...not only would it bore the viewer (e.g US!) but he would never be able to use them all and the writers would have difficulty fitting them into the story.

2)Levels/Stats/Evolution
--The anime is NOT the game. There is no such ting as levels or stats or anything like that. Think of the Pokemon like you would a real life animal training..(I.E Running..where there is no Stamina stat...it does help you get fit)

3)Ash makes mistakes.
--OMGZ NO WAIZ!!! Ash can mess up..and it's all by design. He is supposed to be a normal/identifiable character. We all goof up sometimes, so does he.

4)Why doesn't Ash ever train/Why are his Pokes' so strong?
--We only see a little frame his day in each episode. We have NO idea what goes on.

5)Why doesn't his Pokemon evolve?
--They do, just not all of 'em. Maybe he doesn't want them to evolve.

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 01:51 PM
Poke King, the point that you seem to fail to grasp is that we don't see everything that goes on in the show, and the show's mechanics aren't the same as the game's. For instance, stamina might not be a problem in the game, but it sure is in the anime, since those battles are "real" with creatures that tire out with prolonged work/battling.
So you didn't say I was right because I was, there is no Stamina Stat. As for the Anime of course stamina plays a role in how well Pokémon do in battle. And its because of that I am adding Stamina in my Pokémon game to make it more realistic.


...And how do you find those Pokemon to capture? By travelling, that's how.
Ya you have to travel to get Pokémon but in the 3 Regions Ash has been in he has only captured a handful of Pokémon and ya there may be those 30 Tauros but even if you add them its still not that many Pokémon considering all the Regions he's been in. So ya they travel a lot and that alone should mean he as well as his friends would have more Pokémon or at the very least of battled more.


You would if it was something you never had to deal with for about two years.
Uh no, he wants to be the best . And when you wanna be the best at something or at least good at it you don't forget the basics, it be like an Architect forgetting what a blue print is lol.


It isn't, because a. evolution isn't based on level in the anime (or else how would TR's Pokemon be able to evolve?), and b. as I mentioned before, the game's level system doesn't exist in the anime.
Ya it doesn't exist in the Anime but I still think it take a lot more battles to evolve a Pokémon in the Anime. Which was the point of what I said which was they didn't battle much so it didn't make sense for them to evolve so fast and be so strong.


This whole thread is part-speculation...but if you can't trace my facts, then you might want to refresh yourself on the episodes, particularly Chronicles (in "The Legend of Thunder", Jimmy makes a particularly-notable mention on why to NOT capture a Legendary Dog) & Johto. And, considering how the episodes have opened/ended on battles already in progress (most recently when Brock's Mudkip evolved into Marshtomp), there's no doubt that there're battles going on when we can't see them.
Its not really speculation because everything I have said is based on what has and hasn't happen in the Anime therefore the only real facts we can go by is what happens in the Anime because everything else would be speculation so if anyone is saying facts than I am and if anyone is just saying speculation then you are.

And I vaguely remember that episode but in the end even if Jimmy wanted to capture it he couldn't of because his Pokémon was far too weak. Also ya they open/end on battles which proves that at least one battle happens in between episodes which still isn't enough to get said participating Pokémon so strong besides most of the battles that aren't done at the end of a episode are continued in the next anyways so saying that was kind of pointless.



The reason for Ash:

1)Why doesn't he catch more Pokemon?
--He doesn't NEED them. And were he to catch every Poke he sees...not only would it bore the viewer (e.g US!) but he would never be able to use them all and the writers would have difficulty fitting them into the story.
Really, he doesn't need them. Um last I checked how many times has Ash gotten nailed when battling because he didn't have a good variety of Pokémon luckily for him he gets lucky and the writers make him win somehow. For god's sake he hasn't even captured every Type yet after exploring 3 Regions in 2 years time.


2)Levels/Stats/Evolution
--The anime is NOT the game. There is no such ting as levels or stats or anything like that. Think of the Pokemon like you would a real life animal training..(I.E Running..where there is no Stamina stat...it does help you get fit)
Whether the Anime is like the game is non consequential because either way in the Anime you have to train Pokémon to make them stronger and either way we don't see him do that much.


3)Ash makes mistakes.
--OMGZ NO WAIZ!!! Ash can mess up..and it's all by design. He is supposed to be a normal/identifiable character. We all goof up sometimes, so does he.
Messing up is forgeting a Move a Pokémon may be able to do. Not forgetting an Electric Type Move doesn't effect a Ground Type or forgetting a Normal Type Move doesn't effect a Ghost Type. Thats called incompetent and if he is supposed to reflect us then the writers must not think we are that competent.


4)Why doesn't Ash ever train/Why are his Pokes' so strong?
--We only see a little frame his day in each episode. We have NO idea what goes on.
Ya but as I said I am going by what is seen in the Anime not the stuff we haven't seen because that is speculation besides from what I have seen in the Anime Ash isn't to concerned about training really so how can I as well as all of you expect him to be that way in what we don't see.


5)Why doesn't his Pokemon evolve?
--They do, just not all of 'em. Maybe he doesn't want them to evolve.
Never actually said they don't evolve, guess you like putting words in my mouth.


In summation lol I AM GOING BY WHAT THE ANIME SHOWS US so by that what I said makes senes, apparently you all who disagree like to imagine what happens outside of the Anime a lot and apparently in your imagination Ash is a dedicated bad ass Trainer lol.

Forci Stikane
December 28th, 2006, 02:04 PM
Its not really speculation because everything I have said is based on what has and hasn't happen in the Anime therefore the only real facts we can go by is what happens in the Anime because everything else would be speculation so if anyone is saying facts than I am and if anyone is just saying speculation then you are.

And I vaguely remember that episode but in the end even if Jimmy wanted to capture it he couldn't of because his Pokémon was far too weak. Also ya they open/end on battles which proves that at least one battle happens in between episodes which still isn't enough to get said participating Pokémon so strong besides most of the battles that aren't done at the end of a episode are continued in the next anyways so saying that was kind of pointless.

(bolded for emphasis)

OKAY, NOW I SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING. You just wanted to try to start an argument, and are too self-centered to accept what anyone else says. Uh-huh, just like what I've seen so many times before in those best described as scum.

I'm done trying to talk with you. If you're not willing to accept what others have to say then you shouldn't have bothered to post the thread.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 02:08 PM
1)Why doesn't he catch more Pokemon?
--He doesn't NEED them. And were he to catch every Poke he sees...not only would it bore the viewer (e.g US!) but he would never be able to use them all and the writers would have difficulty fitting them into the story.

Well i wouldnt say he doesnt need them, as variety is always good to have, but you have to bare in mind its better to have only a handful of pokemon which have been well trained and who have developed a close friendship with its trainer than having many pokemon who you have not had the time to train all of them to a satisfactory level with good moves.

I have to agree on the fact though that it would be hard for the writers to come up with many storyparts if Ash was to go out and catch every pokemon he saw. If this was to be the case we would see each of his pokemon for a couple of episodes and not see the same pokemon again in about a season or two, so yes Ash catching every pokemon he met would be a problem. Lets also not forget about the storyparts for other pokemon trainers like Brock and Mays Pokemon Contests.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 02:11 PM
OKAY, NOW I SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING. You just wanted to try to start an argument, and are too self-centered to accept what anyone else says. Uh-huh, just like what I've seen so many times before in those best described as scum.

I'm done trying to talk with you. If you're not willing to accept what others have to say then you shouldn't have bothered to post the thread.
Actually I wasn't trying to start an argument and I think we have yet to get to that point. And I am willing to except what others say but you don't seem to except what I say, I mean all I have done is state what you, me and everyone else has seen in the Anime, your the one who keeps saying I'm wrong in some way. If you were right hey I be the first to say that you are and so stupid me or something of that nature for being wrong but all you have offered is speculation. All this thread really should of been about was how Ash isn't the best Trainer as we see him on the Anime but you made it into something far more by going into what he does outside of the Anime as if its fact which its not, its a guess and not even an educated one. I say that because how Ash acts in the Anime is how he act outside of it and by that he wouldn't be training his Pokémon or battling that much.

But hey lets all be friends, I mean I think we all can agree Ash isn't the best Trainer and the point of this thread was to reflect upon that.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Let me just start by saying that this is an excellent disscussion that is going on here and im sure that we all consider other people views whether we agree or disagree with them but we also naturally have our own opinions. Lets just keep our cool and disscuss things in a mature mannor. Noone intends to pick an arguement here but it happens when views differ Just remember that at the end of the day we are here to have fun.

And Poke King i think we all can say that Ash is not the best trainer in the anime but he has his qualities too.

~Kipper~

jasonresno
December 28th, 2006, 02:22 PM
And by the way, PokeKing--I wasn't even addressing you at all when I answered those "mock" questions.

And the fact that you are wishy-washy on the point you are trying to make, makes this debate not worth my time.

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 02:51 PM
And by the way, PokeKing--I wasn't even addressing you at all when I answered those "mock" questions.

And the fact that you are wishy-washy on the point you are trying to make, makes this debate not worth my time.
Well, you quoted me so I assumed. And where am I wish washy, I'm saying he isn't a good trainer and backing it up with facts.

Also this never was supposed to be a debate really, this was just supposed to be a discussion on Ash's training skills or rather lack there of but hey if you wanna leave because you thought he was a good trainer or something and you been proven wrong then hey go right ahead. :D

羨望
December 28th, 2006, 03:30 PM
Finaly,someone who thinks that ash its just a clumsy character,I have only have to say this that may be offensive to ash fans so if you are try to not read it.
Ash is just a stupid remake of Red R/B/Y Red character that only do is win Gym Leaders at battles hooray but when goes to the league he looses at that semifinal match,Oh i won Orange League and Battle frontier but now i go shinou win my badges and losing again at the league.Come on other than that the writers put him with girls of the generations,Oh im with may,Now im with hikari horray.And the fact that he is with the generations girls the writers are making him gay with his stupid rival Gary how stupid and repeative you think that is.Now to the point some people loved some people hated him and im sorry to said that ash is stupid gay looser.Come on writers make this guy master whateaver end his show and create new show with a new main character and i now you may hated but people are opening there minds and geting sick of it don,t tell me you hated the anime don't watch it i don't wach it and if you think you right that the anime i successful with ash then check the ratings not very sucesful are we and check the first season rating successful in that time was world international hit but people are geting sick of it and if im wrong i hope you got guts because i don't think you have a army of people now maybe 1998s but here i no think so,The anime needs a new main character.
Sorry for a rude speech but when i mad i of something i get like this.

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 03:55 PM
I find what you said funny but I found it even funnier that you had to hide it so not to offend, I mean come on now are fans of him that sensitive.

Death Rogers
December 28th, 2006, 04:20 PM
...You haven't seen a single episode of the new season, have you? A statement that outdated would have to mean that you've not only missed ALL of Pokemon:Battle Frontier, but also haven't bothered to keep up with what's going on. Somebody that lazy/uncaring & outdated shouldn't be discussing the anime, IMO.
I can discuss the Anime. This thread is not about 4kids. This is about Ash. Which I am well informed about. If you say 4kids no longer has anything to do with it, that doesn't mean you can tell me I have to leave. I will willingly edit my post if you can find information that proves me wrong.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Finaly,someone who thinks that ash its just a clumsy character,I have only have to say this that may be offensive to ash fans so if you are try to not read it.

Ash is just a stupid remake of Red R/B/Y Red character that only do is win Gym Leaders at battles hooray but when goes to the league he looses at that semifinal match,Oh i won Orange League and Battle frontier but now i go shinou win my badges and losing again at the league.Come on other than that the writers put him with girls of the generations,Oh im with may,Now im with hikari horray.And the fact that he is with the generations girls the writers are making him gay with his stupid rival Gary how stupid and repeative you think that is.Now to the point some people loved some people hated him and im sorry to said that ash is stupid gay looser.Come on writers make this guy master whateaver end his show and create new show with a new main character and i now you may hated but people are opening there minds and geting sick of it don,t tell me you hated the anime don't watch it i don't wach it and if you think you right that the anime i successful with ash then check the ratings not very sucesful are we and check the first season rating successful in that time was world international hit but people are geting sick of it and if im wrong i hope you got guts because i don't think you have a army of people now maybe 1998s but here i no think so,The anime needs a new main character.
Sorry for a rude speech but when i mad i of something i get like this.

Okay as we have already stated in this thread, Ash may not be the best trainer there is, but he has at least one two major leagues. You also have to bare in mind that if he was just made to win everything by the writers, people would get very bored extremley quickly and would refrain from watching the shows. It also adds a bit of drama to the show and shows that you can never win everything. If the company dare i say it get rid of Ash and introduce a new main character to the show, they would be taking a huge risk a people might watch the first couple of episodes and decide that the new character is worse, then there would be no turning back! We have had about 12 seasons so far of the anime and it would be very pointless to just loose everything the company has created with Ash. Ash's dismisal would also mean the dismisal of the 'signature' of the show pikachu, and im sure that everyone would be annoyed to see him go. Sure the ratings are low now, but as diamond and pearl episodes are released in the U.S and the U.K, and every other country for that matter that hosts pokemon, they are almost certain to get back up.

~Kipper~

Charaxes
December 28th, 2006, 08:07 PM
I'm just going to post.

This is a good discussion, just don't get it out of hand. Everything has been said nicely except one thing that I think some missed is "people can't get certain Pokemon or certain people can't get it." Like with the Legendaries, the certain ones aren't meant to be tamed. Mewtwo with Giovanni was an exception because of Mewtwo's negative connotations and origins made it a perfect fit to be a bio-weapon for the Rockets. Now, of course, the producers finally let go of that edict with the Brains.

Anymore, with a certain Pokemon, you think "that's so a certain character", you think they should have it. But that can lead to predictability and the series has that constant problem -- besides the recycling -- hence, why they're going willy-nilly. They've improved on this, but it's a problem.

That, and remember at the beginning of the series, Ash had great ambitions, but he then began to think a little smaller and more realistic as we've seen the "got to have your cake and eat it, too" types like Team Rocket on a daily basis, plus Indigo rather humbled him. Ash isn't a conquer-the-world type like say Gary, just only his corner of it. He is more accepting of his hand in life. It doesn't mean he doesn't push himself, but it means the reach doesn't exceed his grasp. I think that's right.

Other that that, there are lots of off-camera issues as lchi alluded to, like with Misty's intro in Hoenn for example. Dogasu summed it nicely.

The problem I have with the episode is that there are huge gaps in the plot that we're forced to fill in with our imaginations. So suddenly Satoshi has been keeping up with Kasumi (via telephone, I'd guess) even though he hasn't really mentioned her once in the past 43 episodes? And why are Musashi, Kojirou, and Nyasu working for this guy named Hanzou?

Or how Team Aqua had Groudon or Magma Kyorge in the Groudon v. Kyorge two-parter for another one?

Yep.

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Okay as we have already stated in this thread, Ash may not be the best trainer there is, but he has at least one two major leagues. You also have to bare in mind that if he was just made to win everything by the writers, people would get very bored extremley quickly and would refrain from watching the shows. It also adds a bit of drama to the show and shows that you can never win everything. If the company dare i say it get rid of Ash and introduce a new main character to the show, they would be taking a huge risk a people might watch the first couple of episodes and decide that the new character is worse, then there would be no turning back! We have had about 12 seasons so far of the anime and it would be very pointless to just loose everything the company has created with Ash. Ash's dismisal would also mean the dismisal of the 'signature' of the show pikachu, and im sure that everyone would be annoyed to see him go. Sure the ratings are low now, but as diamond and pearl episodes are released in the U.S and the U.K, and every other country for that matter that hosts pokemon, they are almost certain to get back up.

~Kipper~
Ya even I would say don't get rid of Ash but as for him not winning all the time, well he does pretty much. Course if they ever were to get rid of Ash I think the best way would be to have him meet the character who take over as the main character and have him in the Anime with Ash as one of his gang then as the show goes on it focus more on that character and less on Ash then eventually Ash leave to go home or something then that character take over though I guess this is a discussion for somewhere else lol but hey if they did it that way it probably work because we become attached to the character long before they had to hold the show together on there own.

Ash isn't a conquer-the-world type like say Gary.....
Or how Team Aqua had Groudon or Magma Kyorge in the Groudon v. Kyorge two-parter for another one?

Yep.
Well, Gary has stopped being that way as seen by the fact he became a researcher and no longer goes after being the best Trainer. And ya why was there never a episode showing them capture those legendaries, it would of been nice to see just how they managed that.

Mudkip85
December 28th, 2006, 08:22 PM
Ya even I would say don't get rid of Ash but as for him not winning all the time, well he does pretty much. Course if they ever were to get rid of Ash I think the best way would be to have him meet the character who take over as the main character and have him in the Anime with Ash as one of his gang then as the show goes on it focus more on that character and less on Ash then eventually Ash leave to go home or something then that character take over though I guess this is a discussion for somewhere else lol but hey if they did it that way it probably work because we become attached to the character long before they had to hold the show together on there own.

I guess that could be a nice way to slowly move him out of the anime. Maybe a 'relative' of Ash could take the main charater slot like his cousin or something. However i just dont think they are ready yet to let him go.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 08:35 PM
I guess that could be a nice way to slowly move him out of the anime. Maybe a 'relative' of Ash could take the main charater slot like his cousin or something. However i just dont think they are ready yet to let him go.

~Kipper~
I think it probably be the only and best way to do it because I think a sudden change would polarize fans, like when Pokémon Chronicles came out I thought it was about Jimmy and was a bit reluctant but then I realized its just a bunch of random shows about already existing characters except for Jimmy, his crew and a few others of course.

ChrisG14
December 28th, 2006, 09:11 PM
I'm not really debating with anyone, but I need to prove something

I can discuss the Anime. This thread is not about 4kids. This is about Ash. Which I am well informed about. If you say 4kids no longer has anything to do with it, that doesn't mean you can tell me I have to leave. I will willingly edit my post if you can find information that proves me wrong.

From Wikipedia:

The English adaptation of the series was produced by 4Kids Entertainment (for eight seasons), with video distribution of the series was handled by Viz for the TV series for the younger generation as well as the eighth movie forward, Kids WB! and Nintendo for the first three movies and the first special, Miramax Films, and Buena Vista Home Entertainment for the fourth movie through the seventh. The series and all feature films are directed by Kunihiko Yuyama, with English adaptations originally written by Norman Grossfeld and Michael Haigney. However, starting with the ninth season, the American branch of The Pokémon Company, Pokémon USA, replaced 4Kids as the show producers and distributors outside of Japan, and the program has a new voice cast.

Yeah... Domo Arigato :tired:

Miss Reyna
December 28th, 2006, 09:17 PM
I don't want to start any arguements. I just want to say some of my views and hope that you will consider them and understand.

As in the evolution fact I will use my fave type. The fire type pokemon that Ash has gain.

In reality Ash's charmander shouldn't have evole if you consider what they show in the show. The charmander is cute and sweet in the anime but never really had any real battle experience before it evole into a charmeleon. Then when it became a charizard you see that it didn't even battle much less leave its pokeball. How could it evole you ask? Then look at Ash's fire type during Johto, Qyndaquil. That little fire pokemon has been in many tough battles under Ash's adventures in Johto. It battle singlehandly against a well trainer Scyter and Steelix plus many more powerful pokemon like a Skarmory and others. If you just add up all those battles it appeared more times then Charmander and thus gaining a lots experience and that could be tell in the battle against Jasmine's Steelix. Now that is looking at the evolution question from your angle about just what we are shown in the anime.

The angle that I am viewing and mostly everybody else is seeing is that Ash's pokemon choose when they want to evolve. It not done by experience or something like that. They evolve after a major battle or something that could result in lots of valueable experience which is the only way experience can be involve with this at all. For some reason Cyndaquil doesn't want to evolve along with Squirtle and other of Ash's pokemon that hasn't evolve. They not weak or inexperience but they just like how things are.

I know you like to hear things from just what is shown in the anime but you have to consider what they don't show. I mean the annoucner says some times that Ash is taking a break from training or is in the middle of training. Also the creators are trying to make an intresting show and they don't want to have a whole episode just where Ash is training so we get these fillers that show Ash getting inturpted from training or something. Ash isn't the best but he is good. That what makes him an intresting character and keeps the show going. They don't want to show a whole episode where Ash is training because we and they know that it will be boring.

The best way I can see the Pokemon anime is like the play MacBeth or Julius Caesar. If you have ever read those plays you notice that things happen behind the scenes. In MavBeth, Lady MacBeth suffers from guilt from killing the king and for a long while she suffer from sleep walking and talking. Thoughout the whole play the auidence or the reader only see this sleep act once but you are told by the servents that Lady MacBeth has been doing that for many night and even weeks if I remember right. In Julius Caesar, right after the death of Caesar the acts after that it is just war scenes. They make no mention of war or anything. We are just sent right into war zone and is told that most of the people who were involve in the act of killing Caesar are dead or something. As you can see a lots of things happen behind the scenes and the reader don't get to see it. That is exactally how the Pokemon anime is. We don't see Ash training his pokemon but we know that he is at some point. We only get to see the important parts of Ash and friends day. A good episode example that I suggest you see would be is Time-Warp Heals All Wounds. You see that Ash spent most of the day training with Pikachu an his other pokemon but we only see one scene at night where Pikachu used Volt Tackle to cut though a rock. There are a lot of behind the scene things that we as the viewer don't see. We have to assume that things like that happen by what we are told.

One thing I want answer is how can a ghost attack effect a normal type pokemon in the anime and in the game a ghost attack can't effect a normal type. Just something that been in my mind lately.

I not sure if that made any sense but when it comes to the anime we have basically fill in the blanks between things. I mean days could pass between episodes. One day they could gain a new pokemon and then days later we see another episode and an egg just hatch. Also you got to consider that this is just a show based on a video game where the creators are trying to make a realistic view point of the game while still making an entertaining show.

kasumi_grl
December 28th, 2006, 09:32 PM
When I think of Pokemon, I think of Ash. The first time I watched the show, I was babysitting and I was instantly drawn to this character who would just not give up or stop believing in his dreams. Getting rid of Ash would spell death sentence for the series. Sometimes behind the scenes things work. Sometimes they don't and that sseems to be the case more than not for Pokemon.

-Don't double post. It makes Pichus cry.

-DC

Charaxes
December 28th, 2006, 09:35 PM
The best way I can see the Pokemon anime is like the play MacBeth or Julius Caesar. If you have ever read those plays you notice that things happen behind the scenes. In MavBeth, Lady MacBeth suffers from guilt from killing the king and for a long while she sufer from sleep walking and talking. Thoughout the whole play the auidence or the reader only see this sleep act once but you are told by the servents that Lady MacBeth has been doing that for many night and even weeks if I remember right. In Julius Caesar, right after the death of Caesar the acts after that it is just war scenes. They make no mention of war or anything. We are just sent right into war zone and is told that most of the people who were involve in the act of killing Caesar are dead or something. As you can see a lots of things happen behind the scenes and the reader don't get to see it. That is exactally how the Pokemon anime is.

One thing I want answer is how can a ghost attack effect a normal type pokemon in the anime and in the game a ghost attack can't effect a normal type. Just something that been in my mind lately.

I couldn't have said it better and sums it all up nicely. It's funny you chose MacBeth and Caesar, as I'm an Othello fan myself. I think it's Shakespeare's best, personally. Some episodes definitely require exposition and that's what Chronicles' original intention was about, and some, like the movies, you have to draw your own.

I think the thing is, Ash is supposed to be a representative of the player, and clearly, everyone has their different styles and approach, as shown by the characters of the day. Unfortunately, that's the by-product of making the "player" character a character -- he develops a life onto his own. He won't be the icon like Mario or Link with their own lives, but there is something there.

Anyway, as for the Ghost/Normal dealy, don't forget his most recent showdown with Agatha in "Scheme Team". As Agatha wonderfully chided to Ash, "How could you miss that?" Indeed.

Poké King
December 28th, 2006, 09:41 PM
I couldn't have said it better and sums it all up nicely.
Ya she went over it pretty good and I always did consider that there was behind the scenes action and that obviously the Anime does it differently than the game, my whole point on this was how Ash was not that good of a Trainer. It just happen to show that I had to get his poor Pokémon involved lol. But in the end we can only go by what are 2 eyes see and from what we all see its safe to say the Anime does it very differently which often will cause threads like mine to pop up.


-Don't double post. It makes Pichus cry.

-DC
LOL, now don't you all go making any Pichu's cry or else they'll evolve into Pikachu's one day and zap your butts good. :P

Charaxes
December 28th, 2006, 10:07 PM
Ya she went over it pretty good and I always did consider that there was behind the scenes action and that obviously the Anime does it differently than the game, my whole point on this was how Ash was not that good of a Trainer. It just happen to show that I had to get his poor Pokémon involved lol. But in the end we can only go by what are 2 eyes see and from what we all see its safe to say the Anime does it very differently which often will cause threads like mine to pop up.

Spectulation is needed, but even so, there are times where you have to question. I certainly did with the beginning of Advanced Battle with the writing. Other than that, I always say, "it's a TV show, so you really should just relax."

Be different if the anime was something Joss Whedon wrote, then, whoa...

Still, can't complain.

Mudkip85
December 29th, 2006, 05:13 AM
As in the evolution fact I will use my fave type. The fire type pokemon that Ash has gain.

In reality Ash's charmander shouldn't have evole if you consider what they show in the show. The charmander is cute and sweet in the anime but never really had any real battle experience before it evole into a charmeleon. Then when it became a charizard you see that it didn't even battle much less leave its pokeball. How could it evole you ask? Then look at Ash's fire type during Johto, Qyndaquil. That little fire pokemon has been in many tough battles under Ash's adventures in Johto. It battle singlehandly against a well trainer Scyter and Steelix plus many more powerful pokemon like a Skarmory and others. If you just add up all those battles it appeared more times then Charmander and thus gaining a lots experience and that could be tell in the battle against Jasmine's Steelix. Now that is looking at the evolution question from your angle about just what we are shown in the anime.

The angle that I am viewing and mostly everybody else is seeing is that Ash's pokemon choose when they want to evolve. It not done by experience or something like that. They evolve after a major battle or something that could result in lots of valueable experience which is the only way experience can be involve with this at all. For some reason Cyndaquil doesn't want to evolve along with Squirtle and other of Ash's pokemon that hasn't evolve. They not weak or inexperience but they just like how things are.

This part of your post really made me realize how correct you are. Cyndaquil faced many tough battles with Ash during its journey through johto and yet still did not evolve into Quiliva. However i do have one suggestion to make. When a pokemon evolves does it loose parts of the relationship it has with its trainer? I mean lets take charmander evolving into charmeleon as you mentioned. Ash's charmander was loving and very loyal to its trainer, and did everything it could to help Ash progress through Kanto. However when it evolved into a charmeleon, it developed a lack of respect for Ash and disobeyed every command it was given, and also when it became a charizard it got worse. I know eventually, charizard developed respect for Ash but they went through some tough times to get there.

So could this be a reason as to why Ash's pokemon may choose not to evolve, because they are afraid to loose the relationship they have between eachother?

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 29th, 2006, 05:37 AM
When a pokemon evolves does it loose parts of the relationship it has with its trainer? I mean lets take charmander evolving into charmeleon as you mentioned. Ash's charmander was loving and very loyal to its trainer, and did everything it could to help Ash progress through Kanto. However when it evolved into a charmeleon, it developed a lack of respect for Ash and disobeyed every command it was given, and also when it became a charizard it got worse. I know eventually, charizard developed respect for Ash but they went through some tough times to get there.

So could this be a reason as to why Ash's pokemon may choose not to evolve, because they are afraid to loose the relationship they have between eachother?

~Kipper~
Well, in the Anime it has been brought up here and there that when a Pokémon evolves because it evolves into a totally new being it often will develop a totally different personality therefore act different though this doesn't always happen obviously as seen with Ash's Chikorita. So because of this when Charmander evolved it went from caring to plain disrepectful as Charmeleon. Another good example of this is Brock's Lotad, it starts off nice & caring then evolved into Lombre becoming very relaxed and a bit lazy-ish then evolved into Ludicolo and became the life of the party.

Does the evolving of a Pokémon change there relationship with there Trainer, its a bit of a yes and no answer because even if a Pokémon's personality changes they can still like there Trainer just as much as before they evolved but at the same time when a Pokémon evolves it becomes a new person therefore there relationship is bound to change with there Trainer. A perfect example is when you were a kid you and your parents relationship was different but when you grow up (i.e. Pokémon evolving) you changed so you & your parents relationship changed somewhat or severly depending on how much you & they changed over time. So maybe its not a yes & no answer and its simply yes Pokémon evolving can change there relationship with there Trainer though it doesn't always happen.

As for that being the reason they don't evolve, I don't think so as it may be just about not wanting to change like how Bulbasaur and Pikachu didn't want to evolve when the opportunity presented itself because they wanted to stay who they were. I mean you do have to realize when you ask a Pokémon to evolve its like someone one day asking you to change into a 30 year old and obviously you probably wouldn't want to do that as you want to enjoy being a kid or whatever.

Mudkip85
December 29th, 2006, 06:09 AM
Well, in the Anime it has been brought up here and there that when a Pokémon evolves because it evolves into a totally new being it often will develop a totally different personality therefore act different though this doesn't always happen obviously as seen with Ash's Chikorita. So because of this when Charmander evolved it went from caring to plain disrepectful as Charmeleon.

I understand totally where you are coming from when you say that pokemon want to stay as they are because they like who they are and would not want to risk the loss of the relationship they have with their trainer, but if thats the case i have to ask why on earth did charmander evolve? I mean it had everything going for it, it respected its trainer and its trainer respected it and they had a great powerful relationship. So why would it choose the risk of loosing all this by evolving. I have one sort of theory which could potentially answer this. Do you remember the first episode when we saw and met charmander where it was abandoned by its trainer and left weak and hurt in the rain, in a terrible condition and Ash came and rescued it? Well i think the only possible explanation why charmander evolved was to ever prevent this from happenning again, as by evolving it would become physically stronger so it could protect itself if anything like that were to have happened again. This way charmander who became charmeleon, although loosing its relationship and trust with Ash, was now able to protect itself, if any harm were to come to it. I think that my explanation also provides a strong arguement as to why it quickly evolved to charizard soon after its evoltion to charmeleon.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 29th, 2006, 06:24 AM
but if thats the case i have to ask why on earth did charmander evolve? I mean it had everything going for it, it respected its trainer and its trainer respected it and they had a great powerful relationship. So why would it choose the risk of loosing all this by evolving. I have one sort of theory which could potentially answer this. Do you remember the first episode when we saw and met charmander where it was abandoned by its trainer and left weak and hurt in the rain, in a terrible condition and Ash came and rescued it? Well i think the only possible explanation why charmander evolved was to ever prevent this from happenning again, as by evolving it would become physically stronger so it could protect itself if anything like that were to have happened again. This way charmander who became charmeleon, although loosing its relationship and trust with Ash, was now able to protect itself, if any harm were to come to it. I think that my explanation also provides a strong arguement as to why it quickly evolved to charizard soon after its evoltion to charmeleon.

~Kipper~
Well, Pokémon can't always determine when the will evolve just like you can't determine how you will change in 10 years. Like in the Anime there have been cases of Pokémon sensing there going to evolve and begin to act differently as a result, now maybe some can stop themselves from changing and maybe some can't as seen by Ash's Bulbasaur who stopped itself from becoming Ivysaur. Besides maybe Charmander thought he wouldn't change and maybe he evolved because he wanted to be stronger for Ash as his previous Trainer abandoned him because he deemed him weak therefore didn't want Ash to do the same then when he did evolve maybe he thought I did all this for him, I changed my entire self for him and inturn grew to resent Ash therefore reacted the way he did as Charmeleon. And when he evolved into Charizard it may have had more to do with becoming stronger to beat Aerodactly but luckily in time Charizard figured out that Ash trully cared about him and would never leave him at least in terms of general abandonment because as we know Ash did leave Charizard in Charicific Valley though Charizard understood why Ash did so because Ash wanted him to become stronger and as he wanted to be stronger for Ash he stayed plus getting his butt kicked by one of the Charizard's there made him want to get stronger to.

Well, didn't I go a little deep into Charmander's psyche lol. :P

Forci Stikane
December 29th, 2006, 06:57 AM
I'm not really debating with anyone, but I need to prove something



From Wikipedia:

The English adaptation of the series was produced by 4Kids Entertainment (for eight seasons), with video distribution of the series was handled by Viz for the TV series for the younger generation as well as the eighth movie forward, Kids WB! and Nintendo for the first three movies and the first special, Miramax Films, and Buena Vista Home Entertainment for the fourth movie through the seventh. The series and all feature films are directed by Kunihiko Yuyama, with English adaptations originally written by Norman Grossfeld and Michael Haigney. However, starting with the ninth season, the American branch of The Pokémon Company, Pokémon USA, replaced 4Kids as the show producers and distributors outside of Japan, and the program has a new voice cast.

Yeah... Domo Arigato :tired:

Thank you. There you go, darth robert (or whatever your name was).

This part of your post really made me realize how correct you are. Cyndaquil faced many tough battles with Ash during its journey through johto and yet still did not evolve into Quiliva. However i do have one suggestion to make. When a pokemon evolves does it loose parts of the relationship it has with its trainer? I mean lets take charmander evolving into charmeleon as you mentioned. Ash's charmander was loving and very loyal to its trainer, and did everything it could to help Ash progress through Kanto. However when it evolved into a charmeleon, it developed a lack of respect for Ash and disobeyed every command it was given, and also when it became a charizard it got worse. I know eventually, charizard developed respect for Ash but they went through some tough times to get there.

Well, that's an interesting idea...but I think it has more to do with how Charmander was..."preowned" when Ash caught him. After all, we've had some of Ash's other Pokemon evolve and stay the same personality-wise (Bayleef, Donphan, Sceptile)...or perhaps it was just a freak accident. Or maybe Charmander had a rebellious Nature that didn't manafest itself until it evolved :).

Scarlet Weather
December 29th, 2006, 07:08 AM
Umm.... this was a fun discussion, but now I'm just a little bit sick. Jeez, I don't even follow the anime for the most part, and yet I'm sick. Okay, let's start things off congratulating the brilliant.
Okay as we have already stated in this thread, Ash may not be the best trainer there is, but he has at least one two major leagues. You also have to bare in mind that if he was just made to win everything by the writers, people would get very bored extremley quickly and would refrain from watching the shows. It also adds a bit of drama to the show and shows that you can never win everything. If the company dare i say it get rid of Ash and introduce a new main character to the show, they would be taking a huge risk a people might watch the first couple of episodes and decide that the new character is worse, then there would be no turning back! We have had about 12 seasons so far of the anime and it would be very pointless to just loose everything the company has created with Ash. Ash's dismisal would also mean the dismisal of the 'signature' of the show pikachu, and im sure that everyone would be annoyed to see him go. Sure the ratings are low now, but as diamond and pearl episodes are released in the U.S and the U.K, and every other country for that matter that hosts pokemon, they are almost certain to get back up.


Hear, hear. D/P is probably an attempt to change the series a bit, I think, since Ash seems more like a "side character" than a main character to me- but I've only seen one D/P episode in its entirety, so what would I know? (Sorry, just being random here.)


Ren-Kun: You nutcase. Do not insinuate that Ash is gay. Give me one shred of conclusive evidence, and then say that he and Gary are gay. Ash is, in my eyes, fairly obviously heterosexual, though he might possibly suffer from an odd mental condition that causes him to be attracted to female Pokemon. (I'm not sure at all about the last one, I just entertain the idea because it helps me enjoy the series.)

Poke_King: I believe I have the answer as to why Ash does not catch all of the Pokemon he encounters. It is stated in the Japanese version, in the episode where Charmander is caught to be precise, that Ash only wants to capture rare or unusual Pokemon. All others are sort of "bonus catches", and I believe are usually caught by Ash because they want to be. Also, in the series it is shown, but never stated outright, I believe, that while Gary's team is more balanced because of his constant switching of Pokemon in order to give them all equal battling experience, Ash's team has a much deeper bond with their trainer because of the time they spend together. "Oaking" all of his Pokemon is only done for change of season purposes, and is slightly out of character for Ash. (At least with Johto they gave an explanation as to why some of his Pokemon left the team. In Hoenn, it was just Ash being a dingus. It annoys me that he is, but I can live with it.)

Mudkip85
December 29th, 2006, 09:33 AM
Okay, let's start things off congratulating the brilliant.

Well what can i say thanks for the compliment XD.

Ren-Kun: You nutcase. Do not insinuate that Ash is gay. Give me one shred of conclusive evidence, and then say that he and Gary are gay. Ash is, in my eyes, fairly obviously heterosexual, though he might possibly suffer from an odd mental condition that causes him to be attracted to female Pokemon. (I'm not sure at all about the last one, I just entertain the idea because it helps me enjoy the series.)

Ren-Kun, i have to say your original post of direct critisiscm and abuse to Ash was slightly out of line. Although it may be your view of him, you must give valid reasons as to why you have those specific views of him.

Poke_King: Ash's team has a much deeper bond with their trainer because of the time they spend together. "Oaking" all of his Pokemon is only done for change of season purposes, and is slightly out of character for Ash.

I agree with you Ash certainly has a deeper closer bond with his pokemon than any other trainer in the anime, and it is this what makes him overcome those hard challenges. As for 'Oaking' his pokemon to give change at the beginning of each of the seasons new beginnings, i think its a great idea. Especially now that he has gone to Sinnoh and only has pikachu and aipom with him. It's going to be interesting to see how he forms his new team in this region.

~Kipper

Poké King
December 29th, 2006, 11:06 AM
Poke_King: I believe I have the answer as to why Ash does not catch all of the Pokemon he encounters. It is stated in the Japanese version, in the episode where Charmander is caught to be precise, that Ash only wants to capture rare or unusual Pokemon. All others are sort of "bonus catches", and I believe are usually caught by Ash because they want to be.
So the reason he doesn't capture Pokémon a lot is because he only wants to capture rare and unusual Pokémon. Lets review his Pokémon and see the levity of that statement:

(Note: I only included Pokémon he actually captured so no Pikachu or any of the others he didn't capture and used. Not that any of them were really rare or unusual either)

Aipom
Mukjuru
Naetle
Bulbasaur
Krabby
Muk
Tauros
Snorlax
Heracross
Chikorita
Cyndaquil
Totodile
Noctowl
Phanpy
Taillow
Treecko
Corphish
Torkoal
Snorunt
Charmander
Squirtle
Caterpie
Pidgeotto
Mankey

Now I was gonna do a blurb for all of them but I had to keep copying and pasting not rare and not unusual so I decided not to lol. Of those Pokémon the only one that really stands out as rare and/or unusual is Snorlax, the rest are relatively common.

So if the only reason he captures Pokémon is because there rare and/or unusual then how does Ash have any Pokémon lol.

Scarlet Weather
December 30th, 2006, 06:48 AM
Umm.. dude. More then half of these are rare and unusual. Let's start:

Starter Pokemon (all): No dip they're rare! Gamewise, you can't even find them in the wild, and the characters in the anime are lucky for even getting to see a wild one, let alone catch it!

Tauros: They are so annoying... in the games you can never catch them. That makes them rare.

Noctowl: SHINY! SHINY YOU DOPE!

Phanphy: It hatched from an egg Ash got from an old couple, so he never even really caught this one- besides, it's a Donphan now.

Mankey: It attacked him. Need I say more?

Torkoal: Fairly uncommon in the games.

Pidgeotto: Ash caught this in the early episodes, before he stated that he only wanted rare or unusual Pokemon.

Corphish: Caught because it attacked Ash, and he decided he wanted a Pokemon with that type of strength for his team.

Heracross: Fairly uncommon in the G/S/C games, which were the latest ones in the season that Heracross was caught.

Mukkuru: Caught because Aipom attacked it.

Aipom: Caught because it wanted to come with Ash... and it is a bit unusual.

Snorunt: Rare In-Game Pokemon.

Tailow: Caught because it would have been seriously injured if Ash had allowed it to continue battling Pikachu.

Snorlax: There are only two catchable ones in the game (One in G/S/C). No dip it's rare!

So there you have it- my reply to yours. And anyway, since in the original Japanese Ash himself is the one who states that he only wants rare or unusual Pokemon, you don't need to check the levity of my statement, unless of course you want to argue with Ash.

Mudkip85
December 30th, 2006, 07:43 AM
Umm.. dude. More then half of these are rare and unusual. Let's start:Tauros: They are so annoying... in the games you can never catch them. That makes them rare.

You have raised many valid points as to why Ash's pokemon may be seen as rare or unusual, but you are forgetting one major thing this conversation is relating to the anime not the games, therefore you could not compare the rarity of the pokemon form the games to the anime as it does not correspond. Example you said Tauros were extremley rare and hard to capture in the games, but as we are relaitng to the anime, you can not really say they are rare or even hard to capture as Ash managed to capture 30 of them, so therefore tauros wouldnt be seen to be something special.

Mankey: It attacked him. Need I say more?

I dont see how that makes it rare or unusual as mankeys are known for there bad tempered nature.

Torkoal: Fairly uncommon in the games.

Again you are refering to the games which does not relate to the conversation as we are talking about the anime.

Heracross: Fairly uncommon in the G/S/C games, which were the latest ones in the season that Heracross was caught.

Once again refering to the games!

Aipom: Caught because it wanted to come with Ash... and it is a bit unusual.

Many of Ash's pokemon have wanted to come with him so i dont see how it makes them rare or unusual.

Snorunt: Rare In-Game Pokemon.

In games not necassarily in the anime.

Snorlax: There are only two catchable ones in the game (One in G/S/C). No dip it's rare!

Games yes anime no! As we have seen quite a few snorlax throughout the shows.

The rest of the pokemon you gave explanations for i can agree with you on but i think that in conclusion Ash's pokemon may be tough, loyal and respectful, but just not that rare.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 30th, 2006, 09:26 AM
Starter Pokemon (all): No dip they're rare! Gamewise, you can't even find them in the wild, and the characters in the anime are lucky for even getting to see a wild one, let alone catch it!
Um Starters are not rare or unusual, if they were they wouldn't be Starters because to be able to give every Trainer certain Pokémon then they have to be in abundance or else you couldn't do it and there not unusual because every Trainers has gotten one pretty much.


Tauros: They are so annoying... in the games you can never catch them. That makes them rare.
Ya and Ash caught 30 with ease, if that screams rare and unusual then Pidgey is a damn legendary lol.


Noctowl: SHINY! SHINY YOU DOPE!
Ya it was a Shiny but Noctowl normally isn't rare or unusual but I'll give you Noctowl just because it sparkles lol.


Phanphy: It hatched from an egg Ash got from an old couple, so he never even really caught this one- besides, it's a Donphan now.
Ya I forgot lol but still its not rare or unusual so it doesn't matter.


Mankey: It attacked him. Need I say more?
Ya it attacked him so?


Torkoal: Fairly uncommon in the games.
Ya in the game, talking about the Anime here.


Pidgeotto: Ash caught this in the early episodes, before he stated that he only wanted rare or unusual Pokemon.
Ya but one can assume that he thought that way before stating it besides Pidgeotoo isn't rare or unusual in either the game or the Anime.


Corphish: Caught because it attacked Ash, and he decided he wanted a Pokemon with that type of strength for his team.
So because it was decently strong its unusual lol.


Heracross: Fairly uncommon in the G/S/C games, which were the latest ones in the season that Heracross was caught.
Doesn't matter how rare they are in the game we are talking about the Anime.


Mukkuru: Caught because Aipom attacked it.
Mukkuru is just like Taillow.


Aipom: Caught because it wanted to come with Ash... and it is a bit unusual.
How it is unusual for a Pokémon to want to come with you, going by that logic practically all Ash's Pokémon be unusual because that's how he gets most of them lol.



Snorunt: Rare In-Game Pokemon.
Ya in game maybe but the in the Anime its questionable.


Tailow: Caught because it would have been seriously injured if Ash had allowed it to continue battling Pikachu.
So then your saying its not rare and/or unusual because its not, its the Pidgey version of the Hoenn Region.


Snorlax: There are only two catchable ones in the game (One in G/S/C). No dip it's rare!
Ya in the game there rare but in the Anime there not that rare though I will say I haven't seen too many in the Anime so there sorta rare and/or unusual though I previously said Snorlax was the only one who stood out as possibly being rare and/or unusual.


So there you have it- my reply to yours. And anyway, since in the original Japanese Ash himself is the one who states that he only wants rare or unusual Pokemon, you don't need to check the levity of my statement, unless of course you want to argue with Ash.
Checking the levity of the statement was not to check if he said it but just how truthful was the statement by his actions, ya he may of said it but is it true. No its not or else he have practically no Pokémon because none of his Pokémon are really rare and/or unusual.

You have raised many valid points as to why Ash's pokemon may be seen as rare or unusual, but you are forgetting one major thing this conversation is relating to the anime not the games, therefore you could not compare the rarity of the pokemon form the games to the anime as it does not correspond. Example you said Tauros were extremley rare and hard to capture in the games, but as we are relaitng to the anime, you can not really say they are rare or even hard to capture as Ash managed to capture 30 of them, so therefore tauros wouldnt be seen to be something special.

Ya in the games lots of his Pokémon could be considered rare and/or unusual but in the Anime there far from rare and/or unusual which was my point as this is not about the game its about the Anime. Oh and thanks for telling him what's what Mudkip85 while I wasn't here to do so myself lol.

Forci Stikane
December 30th, 2006, 03:10 PM
I dont see how that makes it rare or unusual as mankeys are known for there bad tempered nature.

In the case of Snorlax and Mankey (and more than that, I believe) Ash captured them because he had to. Mankey--sorry, I mean PRIMEAPE (he never caught it as a Mankey, remember? Geez, what dummy got that wrong...oh, THAT dummy) was chasing after Ash and wasn't going to let him go, so Ash had to fight and catch it to get it to stop (yeah, doesn't exactly make sense to me either, but that's what happened). And Snorlax was eating all the food on a bunch of islands, so Ash caught it to protect the people there from anymore attacks (and Snorlax can swim, so I'd call it pretty unusual).

A few others:

Torkoal: He was impressed by it going to the Valley of Steel (or whatever it was called) and trying to fight the Steelix there.

Pidgeotto: Pre-statement and he was partly trying to prove Misty wrong (they were having an argument and she insulted his ability or something)

Caterpie: Misty wasn't going to stop screaming otherwise XP. ...Seriously, though, that was pre-statement as well.

Starters: Yes, they're rare. I can't think of a single time that they showed a wild Charmander (except for his, of course). And as for Squirtle & Bulbasaur, I only remember seeing them shown in the wild a couple of times through the WHOLE SERIES. If that doesn't shout rare, I don't know what does. Oh, and Ash had wanted them in the first place, but couldn't get them because he slept late, so you can also chalk it up to that.

Taillow: Caught FOR ITS OWN GOOD. Its health was at risk, for pete's sake.

So, yeah, he's gone against his statement, but that was usually because the Pokemon attacked HIM (or, as is apparently the case of Mukkuru, he got dragged into it), so it doesn't count.

Poké King
December 30th, 2006, 03:47 PM
In the case of Snorlax and Mankey (and more than that, I believe) Ash captured them because he had to. Mankey--sorry, I mean PRIMEAPE (he never caught it as a Mankey, remember? Geez, what dummy got that wrong...oh, THAT dummy) was chasing after Ash and wasn't going to let him go, so Ash had to fight and catch it to get it to stop (yeah, doesn't exactly make sense to me either, but that's what happened).
You talk about me trying to start an argument and you call someone a dummy and technically when Ash decided to capture Mankey it was a Mankey at the time but before he actually began the process of capturing him it evolved. So technically he initially was going after a Mankey and ya it evolved before capture but all that matters is origninal intent.


And Snorlax was eating all the food on a bunch of islands, so Ash caught it to protect the people there from anymore attacks (and Snorlax can swim, so I'd call it pretty unusual).
Ya but last I checked any of them could of captured Snorlax after it was put to sleep, a little baby could of done it lol. And last I checked swimming isn't unusual unless its a Pokémon that either doesn't work well with water or its a Pokémon you wouldn't expect to swim well like a bird or bug like Beautifly or something.


A few others:

Torkoal: He was impressed by it going to the Valley of Steel (or whatever it was called) and trying to fight the Steelix there.
Ya and what about it, it was a Pokémon trying to fight another Pokémon. What's rare or unusual about that?

Pidgeotto: Pre-statement and he was partly trying to prove Misty wrong (they were having an argument and she insulted his ability or something)
Actually he wasn't trying to prove anything to Misty, he just wanted to capture it but after being incompitent by just throwing a Poké Ball at it then he wanted to prove to Misty he was a good Trainer course he then selected Caterpie to do so which proved he furthermore was a bad Trainer. And as I said pre-statement captures don't matter because he probably had the idea in his head all along.

Caterpie: Misty wasn't going to stop screaming otherwise XP. ...Seriously, though, that was pre-statement as well.
Ya or they could of just walked away lol besides Ash wanted to capture it, it just so happen if he didn't capture it fast she keep on screaming.

Starters: Yes, they're rare. I can't think of a single time that they showed a wild Charmander (except for his, of course). And as for Squirtle & Bulbasaur, I only remember seeing them shown in the wild a couple of times through the WHOLE SERIES. If that doesn't shout rare, I don't know what does. Oh, and Ash had wanted them in the first place, but couldn't get them because he slept late, so you can also chalk it up to that.
Ya there so rare that every Trainer in the world has had one practically lol. And we probably don't see them much in the Anime because it take the perceived specialness they have on them for being Starters away. And last I checked in Charicific Valley there were a ton of Charizard proving there at one point were a ton of Charmander and I could go on but why when I was right before you made your statement lol.

Taillow: Caught FOR ITS OWN GOOD. Its health was at risk, for pete's sake.
Ya but once again any of them could of captured it at that point.

So, yeah, he's gone against his statement, but that was usually because the Pokemon attacked HIM (or, as is apparently the case of Mukkuru, he got dragged into it), so it doesn't count.
Well, last I checked plenty of Pokémon attacked Ash in the Anime but he never tried to capture them like the Spearow and Beedrill in the first few episodes.

Forci Stikane
December 30th, 2006, 04:15 PM
You talk about me trying to start an argument and you call someone a dummy and technically when Ash decided to capture Mankey it was a Mankey at the time but before he actually began the process of capturing him it evolved. So technically he initially was going after a Mankey and ya it evolved before capture but all that matters is origninal intent.


Ya but last I checked any of them could of captured Snorlax after it was put to sleep, a little baby could of done it lol. And last I checked swimming isn't unusual unless its a Pokémon that either doesn't work well with water or its a Pokémon you wouldn't expect to swim well like a bird or bug like Beautifly or something.

Aside: Or one that weighs a lot...

Ya and what about it, it was a Pokémon trying to fight another Pokémon. What's rare or unusual about that?


Actually he wasn't trying to prove anything to Misty, he just wanted to capture it but after being incompitent by just throwing a Poké Ball at it then he wanted to prove to Misty he was a good Trainer course he then selected Caterpie to do so which proved he furthermore was a bad Trainer. And as I said pre-statement captures don't matter because he probably had the idea in his head all along.

Aside: *GASP* A supposition!!

Ya or they could of just walked away lol besides Ash wanted to capture it, it just so happen if he didn't capture it fast she keep on screaming.


Ya there so rare that every Trainer in the world has had one practically lol. And we probably don't see them much in the Anime because it take the perceived specialness they have on them for being Starters away. And last I checked in Charicific Valley there were a ton of Charizard proving there at one point were a ton of Charmander and I could go on but why when I was right before you made your statement lol.

Aside: And yet AGAIN characteristics of those scum pop up...

Ya but once again any of them could of captured it at that point.


Well, last I checked plenty of Pokémon attacked Ash in the Anime but he never tried to capture them like the Spearow and Beedrill in the first few episodes.

............

I'm done trying to talk with you.

Of course, if anyone else would like to talk about it, then great. I just don't want to try talking to a brick wall...

Poké King
December 30th, 2006, 04:39 PM
Of course, if anyone else would like to talk about it, then great. I just don't want to try talking to a brick wall...
Um let me see I prove you wrong about Mankey, I say Starters aren't rare which there not as explained before and ya Snorlax is heavy which means he has the strength to carry that weight therefore be able to swim.

And you don't want to talk to me anymore because I am proving what you say is wrong most if not all the time and I'm the brick wall. If your right then I will tell you but if your gonna say something wrong like Starters being rare I'm not gonna just sit back and make anyone who reads this who doesn't know the truth believe such a lie. Besides in the end I can admit when I am wrong, just ask Mudkip85 as I admitted to making a mistake from something he said yet no where in this thread have you said you were wrong about something even though you been repeatedly wrong and I am the brick wall remember lol.


Oh and if I'm scum or whatever you meant for me saying I was right, considering you just called someone a dummy for something they were right on I wouldn't be taking the morale high ground. And how interesting you didn't comment on when I said you insulted someone lol. I guess you didn't want to further show how you like to insult people.


In the end if I am wrong I'll admit it, if I am right I will admit it, if someone is right I will admit it and if someone is wrong I will admit it. Oh and you mentioned me saying probably and how bad it was or something, thats funny considering most of your post in this thread has been speculation but whatever.

Mudkip85
December 30th, 2006, 04:45 PM
Torkoal: He was impressed by it going to the Valley of Steel (or whatever it was called) and trying to fight the Steelix there.

Okay so Ask may have been impressed but does that make it rare or unusual? Okay its a steelix so what lets not forget that steelix which is a steel type is weak against fire types so if anything it prooves that Torkoal was pretty weak as it was having difficulties beating a type where it should have a clear advantage.

Caterpie: Misty wasn't going to stop screaming otherwise XP. ...Seriously, though, that was pre-statement as well.

As Poke King said they could of just walked on, but it was Ash's first chance at catching his first pokemon, so it probably was special for him but in reality its a caterpie which is not rare at all, as its found in many places such as all the forests in the anime.

Starters: Yes, they're rare. I can't think of a single time that they showed a wild Charmander (except for his, of course). And as for Squirtle & Bulbasaur, I only remember seeing them shown in the wild a couple of times through the WHOLE SERIES. If that doesn't shout rare, I don't know what does. Oh, and Ash had wanted them in the first place, but couldn't get them because he slept late, so you can also chalk it up to that.

Charific valley has already been brought to the conversation by Poke King and its true that there must be many trainers that own a charizard considering the amount there are there, therefore charmander for one would not be seen as rare. However for other starters i would agree with you as its tru that they do not appear in the wild that often in the anime.

Taillow: Caught FOR ITS OWN GOOD. Its health was at risk, for pete's sake.

Does that make it unusual or rare?

~Kipper~

Scarlet Weather
December 30th, 2006, 04:46 PM
Jeez... by the way, Ash captured a herd of Tauros. Once. It was a parody of Tauros's rareness in the games. By the way, I can tell you one thing- have you noticed that very few trainers in the show own a Pokemon that is of the same species as one of Ash's? Heracross and a few others do not show up at all in the rest of the series except under Ash's ownership. Anyway, trainers get starter Pokemon because starters are incredibly rare in the wild- it is shown in the Advanced Generation episode with Old Man Mudkip that starters given out by proffesors are bred for the most part. Besides, I'm fairly sure that the Charific Valley Charizard do not all belong to one trainer- they're mostly Charizard left there by other trainers to battle and get stronger. To top it off, I've noticed that Ash's Pokemon do have paralells when it comes to rarity in the games. Did you notice that? I did. Oh, and next time you reply to my posts, do us all a favor and do it from a neutral viewpoint. It helps. My views on Ash are that he is a horrible main character, needs more depth, and could be improved greatly, but he is not a complete and total illogical freak. If he were to disappear entirely, I'd feel a bit sad. Go figure.

Oh, and another thing- we're acting like Ash made some unbreakable pledge when he said that he'd only wanted rare or unusual Pokemon. Perhaps he just meant Pokemon he liked, or Pokemon that impressed him in some way. I personally still think going into a valley filled with giant steel monster-like things would be scary, especially if I was only a foot tall or so and didn't have anyone to back me up if I got hurt. Tailow in unusual btw- it can withstand electrical attacks. Top that. And you cannot use answers that are speculative without backing them up. Evidence, please! I had some. I showed it. Dispute the evidence if you don't agree. This is becoming more of an argument about "Is Ash an Idiot?" then "Why Does Ash Act Like This?".

Poké King
December 30th, 2006, 05:08 PM
Okay so Ask may have been impressed but does that make it rare or unusual? Okay its a steelix so what lets not forget that steelix which is a steel type is weak against fire types so if anything it prooves that Torkoal was pretty weak as it was having difficulties beating a type where it should have a clear advantage.
Ya exactly, it was so weak even Type Advantage didn't help it out but I am surprised at you Mudkip85 as you often are a propenent of saying Type Advantage doesn't matter as seen in the Gym thread we participated in.


As Poke King said they could of just walked on, but it was Ash's first chance at catching his first pokemon, so it probably was special for him but in reality its a caterpie which is not rare at all, as its found in many places such as all the forests in the anime.
Ya because if Caterpie is rare and unusual then what is Magikarp a legendary lol.


However for other starters i would agree with you as its tru that they do not appear in the wild that often in the anime.

~Kipper~
Like I said before the reason we don't see them a lot is probably to make them seem special because there Starters because think about it if every Trainer we saw had one then there wouldn't be that many die hard fans of them because who wants to be a fan of something that is super common.

By the way, I can tell you one thing- have you noticed that very few trainers in the show own a Pokemon that is of the same species as one of Ash's? Heracross and a few others do not show up at all in the rest of the series except under Ash's ownership.
Like with the Starters that is also probably like that to make Ash's Pokémon seem special where as proven by what has been said the last few pages there not.


Anyway, trainers get starter Pokemon because starters are incredibly rare in the wild- it is shown in the Advanced Generation episode with Old Man Mudkip that starters given out by proffesors are bred for the most part. Besides, I'm fairly sure that the Charific Valley Charizard do not all belong to one trainer- they're mostly Charizard left there by other trainers to battle and get stronger.
In the Charicific Valley none of the Charizard belong to any Trainers, there all wild. Except for Ash's Charizard and Liza's Charizard Charla of course. Oh and even if Starters are rare in the wild by being specially bred and that most Trainers in the world have them they are inturn not rare because so many Trainers have them. An example of why there not rare is this: Say Magikarp were in reality rare but then one day someone made a bunch of them and placed them all around the world, in time through mating they became abundant. Point is even though they were rare at first because of them being spread across the world and breeding they become common just like Starters may be rare at first but as they are given to all Trainers pretty much they inturn become common and though there not common in the wild they still are common in the respect that there are so many held by most Trainers. That was a bit convoluted but I think my point go across.

Oh, and another thing- we're acting like Ash made some unbreakable pledge when he said that he'd only wanted rare or unusual Pokemon.
I'm not, I was really just responding to what someone said.


Perhaps he just meant Pokemon he liked, or Pokemon that impressed him in some way. I personally still think going into a valley filled with giant steel monster-like things would be scary, especially if I was only a foot tall or so and didn't have anyone to back me up if I got hurt.
So being brave means your unusual?

Tailow in unusual btw- it can withstand electrical attacks. Top that. And you cannot use answers that are speculative without backing them up. Evidence, please! I had some. I showed it. Dispute the evidence if you don't agree. This is becoming more of an argument about "Is Ash an Idiot?" then "Why Does Ash Act Like This?".
In the Anime the reason Tailow can resist Electric Type Moves is because of its determination not because it being special. And since you like proof so much I just reviewed the episode in which Tailow was captured by Ash. Brock even mentioned in the episode the Electric attacks took effect and it was that Tailow just wouldn't give up that caused it to keep fighting. And that was the reason Ash caught it in the first place because if it kept going if not stopped it be hurt severely as Brock also mentioned. Think about it like this, in Naruto when Gaara and Rock Lee battled he got up after being messed up severely by sheer will power even though his body was shot to hell which is why the battle was stopped because if it wasn't he may of died.

Mudkip85
December 30th, 2006, 05:33 PM
This is becoming more of an argument about "Is Ash an Idiot?" then "Why Does Ash Act Like This?".

Let me just start by saying we do not have arguments here its simply our views being expressed and our critisicsms to other people's views.

Jeez... by the way, Ash captured a herd of Tauros. Once. It was a parody of Tauros's rareness in the games. By the way, I can tell you one thing- have you noticed that very few trainers in the show own a Pokemon that is of the same species as one of Ash's? Heracross and a few others do not show up at all in the rest of the series except under Ash's ownership.

Just think about it for a second, if the writers were to give other trainers the same pokemon, sure it would make it easier for them as it would mean less work for them to do. But thank goodness that this is not the case as it would be very boring for audiences to see the same type pokemon battling eachother. It would also have been a waste of time for the creators if they did not use all the pokemon they designed in the anime, so thats why nearly every other trainer has different pokemon show that they can show off all their creations making the anime interesting, although we do occassionly see the odd trainer with the same pokemon. Another possible explanation for trainers not usually having the same pokemn, is the fact because the anime was designed for a very young aged target audience so if the trainers who had the same pokemon used the exact same pokemon in a battle, it could make it extremeley confusing as to which is which and soo on, so by nearly making two trainers engage in battle with different pokemon makes a clear distinguish for the little ones to understand.

~Kipper~

Lil-Dill
December 30th, 2006, 07:07 PM
LMFAO PIKACHU IZ A ****!!! xD. Well thats very wrong. Ash can sometimes get on my nerves even though im 12 im in the appropriate age group to watch this but also what can really bug me iz Team Rockets modo. Really, I bet even the people who play Jesse n James' voices must get tired of saying the same thing for a long time. But now they've changed it up they actually start to rhyme better which iz impressive in way cause it doesnt get on my neves no more!

Miss Reyna
December 30th, 2006, 09:10 PM
Umm. I don't think what you said Roadkirby had nothing to do with what is going on here.

Well let me say what I think on the topic here.

I don't really know much about the pshyci of the pokemon in the beginning of the anime since that was a long time ago and they didn't actually try to add a deep personity to Ash's pokemon until mid Johto season so that just leaves us to guess at why Charmander evolves. It could be any of what you guys said. I can tell you one thing. I would never guess Bulbasusar to be something of a peacemaking pokemon from how hard is battles in the first season in Kanto.

All of Ash's pokemon are speacail in their unique. Still they are something rare. They each did something to prove to Ash that they are worth catching for his team. To him they are unique because of what they have done. The starter pokemon are rare pokemon since it was stated I believe in the episode Judgement Day that it is rare to see pokemon like Ivysaur, Charmeleon and Wartortise in the wild so it can be assume their starter forms are rare too. Also how do we know that the professors don't breed the starter pokemon in their lab? It got to be hard to go find them. I am sure their could be small colneies of charmanders like the Charific Valley and like the island of Squirtle and Wartortise but those must be in like one location only and hard to find. I mean Ash and friends discovered those places by accident and never seen another since. It really doesn't matter that they are rare or unique to use because in the end it only matter if they are rare and unique to Ash since he is catching them. He saw something in each one of his pokemon that made him want to catch them. I mean where else will you find a Heracross that is funloving like the ones that Ash has that is also powerful too? He saw something unique in them and that was enough reason to catch them.

Still who are we to say what is rare and what isn't rare in the anime? I mean our best guess is to use clues from the games to determine what is rare in the anime world.

Mudkip85
December 30th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Umm. I don't think what you said Roadkirby had nothing to do with what is going on here.

XD

All of Ash's pokemon are speacail in their unique. Still they are something rare. They each did something to prove to Ash that they are worth catching for his team. To him they are unique because of what they have done.

Okay lets just agree with you on each of Ash's pokemon are special because of what they have done for him for a minute. I know there are pokemon of his which have proven themselves such as Torkoal, when it defeated the steelix which was causing problems for Ash to get to his next location with the gang, but then you have to think but what about pokemon like caterpie and his charmander, what have they done thats so special for Ash? I mean if anything Ash felt sorry for charmander as it was left hurt and abondoned by its trainer so if anything Ash did something special for it. But i do agree that some of Ash's pokemon have prooven themselves worthy of being part of Ash's team.

Still who are we to say what is rare and what isn't rare in the anime? I mean our best guess is to use clues from the games to determine what is rare in the anime world.

The theory of reffering to the games to guess and determine what is rare in the anime world doesnt really match. Take for example the safari zone in the games, Tauros happen to be extremley rare and are hardly ever encountered whereas in the anime somehow Ash managed to pull off capturing 30 of them.

~Kipper~

Forci Stikane
December 31st, 2006, 08:40 AM
*sigh* Alright, Poke King, you want me to talk to you, fine.

Um let me see I prove you wrong about Mankey, I say Starters aren't rare which there not as explained before and ya Snorlax is heavy which means he has the strength to carry that weight therefore be able to swim.

One, starters ARE rare in the wild (yeah, professors have a bunch and trainers have them from the professors, but how many of them have a starter that they caught in the wild? How many times have they been shown in the wild?). Two, Snorlax having the strength to carry its weight doesn't change the fact that its heavy and should sink. Three, when did you prove me wrong again?

And you don't want to talk to me anymore because I am proving what you say is wrong most if not all the time and I'm the brick wall. If your right then I will tell you but if your gonna say something wrong like Starters being rare I'm not gonna just sit back and make anyone who reads this who doesn't know the truth believe such a lie. Besides in the end I can admit when I am wrong, just ask Mudkip85 as I admitted to making a mistake from something he said yet no where in this thread have you said you were wrong about something even though you been repeatedly wrong and I am the brick wall remember lol.

No, I don't want to talk to you because I don't see the point. You seem to think that you're the be-all-and-end-all of Pokemon fans when I can clearly see that you just can't stand to be proven wrong. That's why you keep making up excuses. For instance:

Ash decided to capture Mankey it was a Mankey at the time but before he actually began the process of capturing him it evolved. So technically he initially was going after a Mankey and ya it evolved before capture but all that matters is origninal intent.

No, you were trying to list his Pokemon.

So the reason he doesn't capture Pokémon a lot is because he only wants to capture rare and unusual Pokémon. Lets review his Pokémon and see the levity of that statement:

Mankey

And since he's never actually owned a Mankey, you were wrong.

Oh and if I'm scum or whatever you meant for me saying I was right, considering you just called someone a dummy for something they were right on I wouldn't be taking the morale high ground. And how interesting you didn't comment on when I said you insulted someone lol. I guess you didn't want to further show how you like to insult people.

What I said in the first place was "just like what I've seen so many times before in those best described as scum", which is quite true. Anybody who has to resort to saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is best described as scum. And yeah, it's not an insult if it's true (as has been proven...again and again).

In the end if I am wrong I'll make up a reason why I'm not really wrong, if I am right I will admit it, if someone is right I will say they are wrong unless they're agreeing with me and if someone is wrong I will admit it (or even if they're right).

There. Now that's truth.

Oh and you mentioned me saying probably and how bad it was or something, thats funny considering most of your post in this thread has been speculation but whatever.

Actually, I brought it up because you were making a big deal about how it was bad to speculate and you were only going by what you're seen in the anime

Its not really speculation because everything I have said is based on what has and hasn't happen in the Anime therefore the only real facts we can go by is what happens in the Anime because everything else would be speculation

so you're going against what you were saying earlier. You really ARE being wishy-washy, and that makes for a very poor argument.

Poké King
December 31st, 2006, 09:56 AM
*sigh* Alright, Poke King, you want me to talk to you, fine.
One, starters ARE rare in the wild (yeah, professors have a bunch and trainers have them from the professors, but how many of them have a starter that they caught in the wild? How many times have they been shown in the wild?). Two, Snorlax having the strength to carry its weight doesn't change the fact that its heavy and should sink. Three
Yes, Starters are rare in the wild but by being in the hands of practically every Trainers makes them not rare. Oh and considering there specially bred if those who do so wanted to they could breed them heavily to the point there as common as a Pidgey but they don't want to or else no one would want them as Starters as who wants something that is super common.

As for Snorlax last time I checked if someone is on the heavy side they will sink easier than a lighter person but that doesn't mean they can't swim so ya Snorlax is big and heavy but he is strong to because of it therefore it can swim. I don't see how you can argue about whether a Pokémon can or can't swim when they obviously can swim but hey that's you lol.


No, you were trying to list his Pokemon.
Ya I was listing the Pokémon he wanted to capture and was successful in doing so, so he was trying to capture a Mankey which is why I put down Mankey instead of Primeape though I will say I forgot about Phanphy coming from an Egg. You see that right there, that's called admitting being wrong. You should try that sometime.


And since he's never actually owned a Mankey, you were wrong.
Never said he owned a Mankey, I said that was what he tried to capture. Maybe I should of said that as direct as I could of but I thought considering we at the time were talking about why he captures Pokémon that everyone assume the Pokémon I listed were ones he tried to capture and was successful at and ya Mankey evolved before Ash captured it but he initially went after it when it was a Mankey therefore starting attempting to capture a Mankey.


What I said in the first place was "just like what I've seen so many times before in those best described as scum", which is quite true. Anybody who has to resort to saying "I'm right, you're wrong" is best described as scum. And yeah, it's not an insult if it's true (as has been proven...again and again).
Well, last I checked all your post say I am right and you are wrong in some way. If you were right then hey that be fine just like its fine for me to do the same but if your wrong and say your right then say something is wrong that someone said when they say something right or prove you wrong that is being scum.


There. Now that's truth.
Um you just fabricated something and called it the truth, that will definitely go in my hall of fame of lol's.


Actually, I brought it up because you were making a big deal about how it was bad to speculate and you were only going by what you're seen in the anime
And the reason I made a big deal about speculation because when you came into this thread on your high horse in the beginning all you spouted was speculation so to see you then get on me for saying probably I had to say something. And we all can only go by what's in the Anime, even my comment on Charmander and why he changed when becoming Charmeleon was based off what was seen of it as Charmander in the Anime.


so you're going against what you were saying earlier. You really ARE being wishy-washy, and that makes for a very poor argument.
No I am not, everything I have said has been based off the Anime to which this discussion can only take fact from because taking fact from your imagination isn't fact.


when did you prove me wrong
Where do I begin, lets see:

1) You said its not all about capturing Pokémon when I said why doesn't he capture Pokémon but I then responded by saying the goal of being a Pokémon Trainer is to capture/train Pokémon. Proven wrong for the first time.

2) You said Ash taught Pikachu Volt Tackle but he didn't. Proven wrong for the second time.

3) You made a comment on how he could forget the whole Normal/Ghost Type thing but I said he wants to be a Pokémon Master so he can't forget something that is basic. Proven wrong for the third time.

4) You said the reason he focused on a small amount of Pokémon was because its better to have a few Level 100's than a bunch of Level 50's and I said if he trained them right they all be Level 100's. Proven wrong for the fourth time.

5) You gave two reasons on why his Pokémon don't evolve and acted like what I said was wrong then I gave a third reason which you seems to think not possible of being the truth which was they weren't trained well enough. Proven wrong for the fifth time.

6) You said my comments lacked in the fact department but all you did in your first post as well as other is spout speculation by saying he may battle Brock in between episodes. Proven wrong for the sixth time.

And that was just one of your many post, I could go over every one of your post but even I don't have that kind of patience.
Oh and of course I proved you wrong a few times other than 1 to 6 in this post so count those to lol.


Now if you wanna argue everything I said you can course someone could argue the sky is green but that doesn't make them right. :D

Oops forgot one:


No, I don't want to talk to you because I don't see the point. You seem to think that you're the be-all-and-end-all of Pokemon fans when I can clearly see that you just can't stand to be proven wrong. That's why you keep making up excuses. For instance:
Actually I don't think I am the uberest fan there is and if I am wrong I do admit it as seen in this post with Phanphy but what I can't stand is someone coming in a thread saying people are not just wrong but calling them dummies as you did when I know the people you are calling wrong are right and that includes me of course. I mean how are you gonna say poor little Snorlax can't swim, that's just mean lol.

goofy_charizard_girl
December 31st, 2006, 10:38 AM
Well first of all, yes I to do no recall that when Ash saw a pokemon, he got like:"Oh, look a *pokemon*. I will catch it" or something like that. And I think that it was said in anime that a pokemon trainer, if he or she wants to be a pokemon master, needs to catch all pokemon. But I think that Ash doesn't think that way and I don't think that's a problem (that he doesn't think he needs to catch 'em all). Also when you play a game on Gameboy you actually finish the game when you win in a Leuge and aren't you then considered a pokemon master? But than in a game that doesn't mean that you're the best cuz you can still go to Battle tower and you meet there some really tough trainers. So I don't know about that. But lets go back to the real question. Well I think that it isn't necesary that you catch all pokemon to become a master. If you look in anime, there, you can not catch a legendary pokemon. At least no one did yet (or did it, cuz I didn't wach all the episodes) and I think nobody ever will. And if nobody ever will, does that meen that there could never be a pokemon master?
I think pokemon master should just mean that you are the best in batteling and you have the strongest pokemon.
Oh and about Ash never trains... Well you must allways keep in mind that that is just an anime and people make them as they wish so I just imagine that Ash trains but it is never in episodes cuz maybe a guy who made this anime thought that that is already obvious or he just thought that would take too much time of an episode to show it. And I think that same goes for fighting other trainers.
And another thing, maybe Ash is lucky sometimes, but I personaly belive that he has skills as a trainer and a lot of times remembers something great to make him win. And you shouldn't compare anime and a Gameboy game cuz in anime you don't have levels and that. Anime is much more real. Anyway how can you train your pokemon to level 100 and than it just stops?! That's pathetic! I mean, a pokemon can allways learn new things and can allways become stronger.
Just one thing more. My opinion on Ash, that he uses pokemon which are in disadvantege by his opponets pokemon, is that there is nothing wrong with that. A pokemon can still beat his foe pokemon, even if first on is in disadvantege. It all comes to which one is more powerful and obviously Ashes pokemons are great!:P

Scarlet Weather
December 31st, 2006, 10:51 AM
In the Anime the reason Tailow can resist Electric Type Moves is because of its determination not because it being special. And since you like proof so much I just reviewed the episode in which Tailow was captured by Ash. Brock even mentioned in the episode the Electric attacks took effect and it was that Tailow just wouldn't give up that caused it to keep fighting. And that was the reason Ash caught it in the first place because if it kept going if not stopped it be hurt severely as Brock also mentioned. Think about it like this, in Naruto when Gaara and Rock Lee battled he got up after being messed up severely by sheer will power even though his body was shot to hell which is why the battle was stopped because if it wasn't he may of died.

And that doesn't make you special? Most people in a situation like that would crumple to the ground. And Rock Lee, my boy, is special- he has an almost unmatchable determination. People like him are hard to find in real life. Do you think they're any less rare in the anime?

3) You made a comment on how he could forget the whole Normal/Ghost Type thing but I said he wants to be a Pokémon Master so he can't forget something that is basic. Proven wrong for the third time.

So I want to be a writer and because of that I can't make a grammar error. *snerk*

You said the reason he focused on a small amount of Pokémon was because its better to have a few Level 100's than a bunch of Level 50's and I said if he trained them right they all be Level 100's. Proven wrong for the fourth time.

What does "training them right" mean? And I have some evidence for as to why Ash and Brock could be fighting in between episodes- they're having a practice battle when Brock's Mudkip evolves. Look it up. This means that they might, in fact, be battling each other in between episodes, and it just isn't shown. Not much evidence, true, but it's evidence that they have trained at least once together, and why not do it more often then once?

You said its not all about capturing Pokémon when I said why doesn't he capture Pokémon but I then responded by saying the goal of being a Pokémon Trainer is to capture/train Pokémon. Proven wrong for the first time.

Note the "/train". Ash focuses on training Pokemon and competing in gym battles with them. Yeesh!

The theory of reffering to the games to guess and determine what is rare in the anime world doesnt really match. Take for example the safari zone in the games, Tauros happen to be extremley rare and are hardly ever encountered whereas in the anime somehow Ash managed to pull off capturing 30 of them.


Ahem... a theory surrounding Ash's capture of the herd was that it was a parody of how rare the Pokemon are in the games, and anyway, Ash wasn't trying to catch them. They just ran in front of every Pokemon he went after and he caught them all by mistake. It's about the same odds as Ash finding a wild Treecko.

[So being brave means your unusual?
/QUOTE]

Think about this seriously- if you were a foot tall and had mediocre control over your attacks, would you go into that valley? I wouldn't. I'd stay outside and prepare for weeks. Torkoal, on the other hand... besides, Steelix is also a ground type, which has an advantage against fire, and might have been at a much higher level then Torkoal.

[QUOTE]Now if you wanna argue everything I said you can course someone could argue the sky is green but that doesn't make them right.

The difference here is that you're wrong sometimes, and the sky is never green.

In the Charicific Valley none of the Charizard belong to any Trainers, there all wild. Except for Ash's Charizard and Liza's Charizard Charla of course. Oh and even if Starters are rare in the wild by being specially bred and that most Trainers in the world have them they are inturn not rare because so many Trainers have them. An example of why there not rare is this: Say Magikarp were in reality rare but then one day someone made a bunch of them and placed them all around the world, in time through mating they became abundant. Point is even though they were rare at first because of them being spread across the world and breeding they become common just like Starters may be rare at first but as they are given to all Trainers pretty much they inturn become common and though there not common in the wild they still are common in the respect that there are so many held by most Trainers. That was a bit convoluted but I think my point go across.


Wild starters, however, are unusual. Rarity is based off of how many Pokemon are in the wild, the way I see it. Like I said, I wasn't sure about the Charific Valley episode as I usually keep up with the show by looking at episode pictures and reading summaries on Serebii.

You gave two reasons on why his Pokémon don't evolve and acted like what I said was wrong then I gave a third reason which you seems to think not possible of being the truth which was they weren't trained well enough. Proven wrong for the fifth time

And I suppose you not believing Icha's version is entirely different.

Now, feel free to argue with everything I've just said, but don't expect me to listen to anyone who speaks as if theirs is the only true viewpoint.

Toh.

Poké King
December 31st, 2006, 11:55 AM
If you look in anime, there, you can not catch a legendary pokemon. At least no one did yet (or did it, cuz I didn't wach all the episodes) and I think nobody ever will. And if nobody ever will, does that meen that there could never be a pokemon master?
Well, as for no one capturing Legendaries there have been many attempts and some temporary successes. For instants Team Aqua and Magma did manage to contain Kyogre & Groudon though they didn't manage to traditionally capture them via Poké Ball for some reason. Raiko was contained, Mewtwo could be considered to be contained until it broke free, Jirachi was temporarily contained, Celebi was caught in Pokémon 4Ever by that Dark Poké Ball thing, Latios is contained in Pokémon Heroes, Deoxys in a way was contained in its hyberantive state or whatever you call it when it was just the jewel thing in Pokémon: Destiny Deoxys, in Pokémon The Movie 2000: The Power of One all three Legendary Birds were contained, a Baby Lugia is contained and as for others nothing is coming to mind. But as what I have said numerous Legendary have been captured in some respect but stuff happens to help them out of the situation, the help usually being of the non legendary variety.

And that doesn't make you special? Most people in a situation like that would crumple to the ground. And Rock Lee, my boy, is special- he has an almost unmatchable determination. People like him are hard to find in real life. Do you think they're any less rare in the anime?
Well, I used that example as it fit the situation because he made it seem as if Tailow was not effected by Electric Types Moves or something where as it was and I was just showing that. But still determination still isn't unusual or rare.


So I want to be a writer and because of that I can't make a grammar error. *snerk*.
Um what are you talking about? The comment wasn't directed to you and where is the grammar error even if it was directed to you which is wasn't.


What does "training them right" mean? And I have some evidence for as to why Ash and Brock could be fighting in between episodes- they're having a practice battle when Brock's Mudkip evolves. Look it up. This means that they might, in fact, be battling each other in between episodes, and it just isn't shown. Not much evidence, true, but it's evidence that they have trained at least once together, and why not do it more often then once?.
Ya that shows they did it once, so if you can say they probably did it more why can't I say they probably didn't. Like I said before if I say no to something that hasn't been proven a few of you say but...maybe and your going on speculation but you act like I am wrong when I am going by what we see in the Anime and considering that moment you speak of was one of the few times we have ever since Ash battle someone in his gang out of the hundreds of episodes that isn't saying much in fact to prove they may be doing it outside the Anime.


Note the "/train". Ash focuses on training Pokemon and competing in gym battles with them. Yeesh!.
I thought we went over that Ash doesn't or at least is not seen training his Pokémon much so why keep bringing it up when we just have the Anime to go by and on the Anime he is not seen doing it much. Yeesh lol.


Think about this seriously- if you were a foot tall and had mediocre control over your attacks, would you go into that valley? I wouldn't. I'd stay outside and prepare for weeks. Torkoal, on the other hand... besides, Steelix is also a ground type, which has an advantage against fire, and might have been at a much higher level then Torkoal..
Ya but being brave isn't a sign of unusualness or rarity so why bring it up again as you said that 1 foot thing for a second time now just like with the Tauros thing.


The difference here is that you're wrong sometimes, and the sky is never green..
Ya I can be wrong sometimes like with forgetting Phanphy was gotten via an Egg and last I checked at what point in this thread did I ever say I am never wrong, I mean I just admitted I can be a few words ago lol. You must be thinking of Ichapokemr and I am sure some how he argue the sky is green lol.


Wild starters, however, are unusual. Rarity is based off of how many Pokemon are in the wild, the way I see it. Like I said, I wasn't sure about the Charific Valley episode as I usually keep up with the show by looking at episode pictures and reading summaries on Serebii..
Well, I know a site you can watch practically all episodes of the Anime so if you want the link I can give it you so you don't have to do the picture/summary thing.

As for them being rare, I will say in the wild they are rare and usually I do determine rarity by the availability in the wild to because normally that is the only way but because how you get Starters is by them being given to you how you determine there rarity is reversed because though rare in the wild there available to any Trainer who wants them when starting out so in the wild there rare but domestically speaking there not. An example of this is say you go to a Pet Store and see a animal that is considered rare in the world but there are like 200 of them in the store at any time, though rare in the world they are common to anyone who goes to the store therefore by that example Starters though rare in the wild are common to Trainers who want them when starting out therefore are not rare to those that matter which are of course are the Trainers because there the ones who have to worry about rarity of Pokémon because there the ones who capture them after all.


And I suppose you not believing Icha's version is entirely different.
Never said he was wrong for the two reasons he gave, just said he was wrong for acting like I was wrong for adding another valid choice which was they weren't trained well, course you took it in a bad way so you could do the whole sarcasm thing because if you took it in the way that any other person would then you couldn't of been a smart alack by being sarcastic.


Now, feel free to argue with everything I've just said, but don't expect me to listen to anyone who speaks as if theirs is the only true viewpoint.
I except all viewpoints but if someone is gonna say something that is wrong I will correct them just as I would expect someone to correct me if I said something wrong. Course if someone corrects me when I am not wrong or I correct someone when there not wrong then I expect someone to say something just like I have been doing in this thread with people who have said things that weren't either partially or fully right. Because how can we learn if we go on believing half truths or straight out lies, god forbid someone comes into a thread and tries to make it so people stop thinking something is right when its wrong like how can anyone think a Snorlax can't swim lol.

Mudkip85
December 31st, 2006, 12:32 PM
Well first of all, yes I to do no recall that when Ash saw a pokemon, he got like:"Oh, look a *pokemon*. I will catch it" or something like that. And I think that it was said in anime that a pokemon trainer, if he or she wants to be a pokemon master, needs to catch all pokemon. But I think that Ash doesn't think that way and I don't think that's a problem (that he doesn't think he needs to catch 'em all). Also when you play a game on Gameboy you actually finish the game when you win in a Leuge and aren't you then considered a pokemon master? But than in a game that doesn't mean that you're the best cuz you can still go to Battle tower and you meet there some really tough trainers. So I don't know about that. But lets go back to the real question. Well I think that it isn't necesary that you catch all pokemon to become a master. If you look in anime, there, you can not catch a legendary pokemon. At least no one did yet (or did it, cuz I didn't wach all the episodes) and I think nobody ever will. And if nobody ever will, does that meen that there could never be a pokemon master?

Becoming a pokemon master, does not necassarily mean that you have to capture every single pokemon out there, because as you know there are still many new pokemon to be discovered past the Sinnoh region that trainers in the anime do not know of yet, so you cant ever say that you have defenitley caught every pokemon out there. As for the oppurtunities of catching legendaries there have been various occassions where Ash has had the chance to capture them. Apart from the movies where he could have potentially caught the likes of Entei and the legedary birds, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, throughout the anime he has encountered Ho-oh, Lugia, Suicine, celebi, deoxys, Groudon and Kyrogue, but did not capture niether one of them. As for has anyone captured a legendary before, in theory no but there has been one occassion i do recall back in Hoenn where Ash met a boy who lived on an island in Hoenn that had a Lugia who stayed and played with him.


Just one thing more. My opinion on Ash, that he uses pokemon which are in disadvantege by his opponets pokemon, is that there is nothing wrong with that. A pokemon can still beat his foe pokemon, even if first on is in disadvantege. It all comes to which one is more powerful and obviously Ashes pokemons are great!:P

Agreed but its not just about the power of a pokemon either, Ash uses every possible way in which he can use his pokemon to the best of their ability. When his pokemon are at a disadvantage he not only uses his pokemon wisley but analyzes his opponents pokemon to see which angle is best to approach from. One last thing is that Ash also makes use of his surroundings in battles and has done this throughout many of his battles with other, trainers, rivals, gym battles, and even in the major leagues.

~Kipper~

Poké King
December 31st, 2006, 12:36 PM
As for has anyone captured a legendary before, in theory no but there has been one occassion i do recall back in Hoenn where Ash met a boy who lived on an island in Hoenn that had a Lugia who stayed and played with him.
But I just did list a bunch of times either Legendaries were caught or contained in some way. And also if you recall the Frontier Brain of the Battle Factory befriended Articuno which got beat by Ash's Charizard so then I guess Ash could of caught it then as it technically wasn't the Frontier Brains.

goofy_charizard_girl
December 31st, 2006, 04:23 PM
Agreed but its not just about the power of a pokemon either, Ash uses every possible way in which he can use his pokemon to the best of their ability. When his pokemon are at a disadvantage he not only uses his pokemon wisley but analyzes his opponents pokemon to see which angle is best to approach from. One last thing is that Ash also makes use of his surroundings in battles and has done this throughout many of his battles with other, trainers, rivals, gym battles, and even in the major leagues.

~Kipper~
Yes I am totally with you. I think that Ash really knows what he's doing.:)

Charaxes
December 31st, 2006, 05:57 PM
Stop bringing up Legendaries, since I already brought up the idea back when. Haha.

Anyway, this is getting a little out of hand and despite the fact I think we've mined the possibilities, I'll let this have one final chance. However, keep this professional, and no backhanded compliments (I read what you said about Ichi and his thinking "the sky is being green" comment, Poke King).

I'm starting to get a headache.

Poké King
December 31st, 2006, 06:13 PM
Anyway, this is getting a little out of hand and despite the fact I think we've mined the possibilities, I'll let this have one final chance. However, keep this professional, and no backhanded compliments (I read what you said about Ichi and his thinking "the sky is being green" comment, Poke King).

I'm starting to get a headache.
Well, I think we have thoroughly gone over everything when it comes to Ash from how incompetent he is to his selection of Pokémon and how there not so rare & unusual. Me personally I think if it wasn't for Ichapokemr using speculation to counter what I and other people say then turn around and attack them if they god forbid say he is wrong as well as call them names then this wouldn't even be on the 4th page and the discussion been over by the 3rd page.

As for my sky is green remark, ya it was a little bad on my part to say but geez when you say a Snorlax can't swim and go on & on arguing with people after they clearly proved you wrong in some way something like the comment I made just comes out. So sorry for the comment and hopefully Ichapokemr will take in account what you said to and maybe we won't be on the 10th page having this same discussion later on.

------------------------------------------
To cut this thread a bit short lets talk about something that hasn't been discussed thoroughly and proven one way or the other. So nothing about Ash's skills as a Trainer, nothing about him Training his Pokémon, nothing about how he some how wins battles, nothing about the rarity of Starters, nothing about the rareness or unusualness of his Pokémon. As for other stuff feel free to discuss them but the other stuff I just listed try not to talk about because either I or someone else has thoroughly explained the answers to those things.

And as I am the creator of this thread I don't think its to wrong for me to ask what I just did because why go on about what has already been decided on through facts and not speculation. Because its just a waist of time and replies. And ya I am up for a healthy discussion but once something has been discussed and the result can't be disputed there is no point to further talk about it and try to dispute it.

Charaxes
December 31st, 2006, 08:30 PM
Well, I think we have thoroughly gone over everything when it comes to Ash from how incompetent he is to his selection of Pokémon and how there not so rare & unusual. Me personally I think if it wasn't for Ichapokemr using speculation to counter what I and other people say then turn around and attack them if they god forbid say he is wrong as well as call them names then this wouldn't even be on the 4th page and the discussion been over by the 3rd page.

As for my sky is green remark, ya it was a little bad on my part to say but geez when you say a Snorlax can't swim and go on & on arguing with people after they clearly proved you wrong in some way something like the comment I made just comes out. So sorry for the comment and hopefully Ichapokemr will take in account what you said to and maybe we won't be on the 10th page having this same discussion later on.

------------------------------------------
To cut this thread a bit short lets talk about something that hasn't been discussed thoroughly and proven one way or the other. So nothing about Ash's skills as a Trainer, nothing about him Training his Pokémon, nothing about how he some how wins battles, nothing about the rarity of Starters, nothing about the rareness or unusualness of his Pokémon. As for other stuff feel free to discuss them but the other stuff I just listed try not to talk about because either I or someone else has thoroughly explained the answers to those things.

And as I am the creator of this thread I don't think its to wrong for me to ask what I just did because why go on about what has already been decided on through facts and not speculation. Because its just a waist of time and replies. And ya I am up for a healthy discussion but once something has been discussed and the result can't be disputed there is no point to further talk about it and try to dispute it.

Ichi didn't speculate as such, or he did with the logical conclusion in mind. Unfortunately, one big factor is the anime's templates and how loose their overall continuity is. Actually, Pokemon Special covered the levels of Red/Ash's Pokemon and covers all the mechanics in depth, so I suggest you read that (and I wish I said it sooner, but Special is in a separate category from the anime, so I didn't think it material). That being said, I don't mind speculation per se, as long as it can provoke thought and to compensate for the holes both the anime in its Japanese and dub formats (like with the Tauros), but the point is not to be convoluted or nitpicky or trapped by your own logic.

And I think we analyzed the crap out of this. Heh.

Poké King
December 31st, 2006, 10:27 PM
Ichi didn't speculate as such, or he did with the logical conclusion in mind. Unfortunately, one big factor is the anime's templates and how loose their overall continuity is.
He did do a lot of speculation and though some may have been educated guesses anytime I said something that was not speculation he made it seem as if I was speculating and didn't know what I was talking about which was my biggest problem with him. I mean I didn't mind that he speculated really but minded that when someone proved him wrong by stating fact he acted is if what he said was fact, I mean if your going to speculate you can't then turn around and act like its fact so you can attack someone who proved you wrong by stating actual fact.


Actually, Pokemon Special covered the levels of Red/Ash's Pokemon and covers all the mechanics in depth, so I suggest you read that (and I wish I said it sooner, but Special is in a separate category from the anime, so I didn't think it material). That being said, I don't mind speculation per se, as long as it can provoke thought and to compensate for the holes both the anime in its Japanese and dub formats (like with the Tauros), but the point is not to be convoluted or nitpicky or trapped by your own logic.

And I think we analyzed the crap out of this. Heh.
Never read that and since its not the Anime and this discussion is about how Ash acts in the Anime you were right not to mention it because it has nothing to do with this thread's discussion. Now if this was an overall look at Ash in all media and what not then it would but this thread is just about the Anime or else it be in the General section.


And I think we analyzed the crap out of this. Heh.
We didn't really over analyze anything as everything really had simple yes or no answers but because people kept going on and on even if they were wrong it made people like me repeat answers and make them as detailed as possible so the person could realize they were wrong like with Snorlax, can it swim..yes of course it can. But because Ichapokemr decided to keep countering that I had to go into it being strong enough and all that. And of course there are many other examples like me having to keep repeatedly going over why Starters aren't rare.

Point is in this thread if people just understood when they were wrong and weren't so hard headed they except what someone said and realized they were wrong which make this thread be like 2 pages instead of 4. Like half the time I posted in this thread I was countering people who countered what I said even though everything I said was based off what has been seen in the Anime where as what they said to counter for the most part was pure speculation.

But like I said could we stop discussing things that have been answered thoroughly because having to go over things over and over takes the fun away from a friendly discussion.

Scarlet Weather
January 1st, 2007, 07:14 AM
Um what are you talking about? The comment wasn't directed to you and where is the grammar error even if it was directed to you which is wasn't.

*slaps forehead* Okay, let me explain this. What I meant was that even if I was trying to be the best writer in the world, I could still make grammar errors, correct? Well, by the same token, Ash can make stupid mistakes even if he's trying to be a Pokemon master. Touche.

Never said he was wrong for the two reasons he gave, just said he was wrong for acting like I was wrong for adding another valid choice which was they weren't trained well, course you took it in a bad way so you could do the whole sarcasm thing because if you took it in the way that any other person would then you couldn't of been a smart alack by being sarcastic.


Your grammar and phrasing is getting so convoluted that I can hardly understand you. Let me see if I've got this straight- you're saying that because I don't agree with you and think you are wrong then I cannot point out that you don't accept my viewpoint as being the correct one, even though I have some supporting evidence and yours is based on speculation? What evidence, you ask? Well, if Ash wins all those battles with basic Pokemon, they must be trained somehow, as it is completely impossible for anyone to be that lucky. Humanly impossible. And another thing, do you ever think about the fact that once again, the only time levels in the anime have been mentioned is in "The School of Hard Knocks"? For the rest of the anime, they pretty much don't matter- therefore, it doesn't matter what "level" they are at, and Ash is training them just fine, thank you. Now get off his back.

He did do a lot of speculation and though some may have been educated guesses anytime I said something that was not speculation he made it seem as if I was speculating and didn't know what I was talking about which was my biggest problem with him. I mean I didn't mind that he speculated really but minded that when someone proved him wrong by stating fact he acted is if what he said was fact, I mean if your going to speculate you can't then turn around and act like its fact so you can attack someone who proved you wrong by stating actual fact.


"Some" here meaning "all". And you do the same thing, Poke King.



But I just did list a bunch of times either Legendaries were caught or contained in some way. And also if you recall the Frontier Brain of the Battle Factory befriended Articuno which got beat by Ash's Charizard so then I guess Ash could of caught it then as it technically wasn't the Frontier Brains.

Yeah- but aside from Articuno and the baby Lugia, who weren't owned by the humans they stayed with, but wanted to stay with them anyway because they were friends, all the others were caught by bad guys, reinforcing the theory that it is considered wrong to capture a legendary Pokemon in the anime. And I wouldn't be evil enough to catch and take away a baby Lugia, or take Articuno from Noland. Besides, Noland would kill me if I did. (By the way, I know you're about to make a comment about Brandon's Pokemon- trust me, don't get me started on the legendaries. It's probably for the best that that particular debate ended.)

To cut this thread a bit short lets talk about something that hasn't been discussed thoroughly and proven one way or the other. So nothing about Ash's skills as a Trainer, nothing about him Training his Pokémon, nothing about how he some how wins battles, nothing about the rarity of Starters, nothing about the rareness or unusualness of his Pokémon. As for other stuff feel free to discuss them but the other stuff I just listed try not to talk about because either I or someone else has thoroughly explained the answers to those things.

And as I am the creator of this thread I don't think its to wrong for me to ask what I just did because why go on about what has already been decided on through facts and not speculation. Because its just a waist of time and replies. And ya I am up for a healthy discussion but once something has been discussed and the result can't be disputed there is no point to further talk about it and try to dispute it.

1. What are we supposed to talk about then? Why Ash's mother has an odd fixation with his underwear?

2.I think the facts can still be disputed, for the most part- oh, and btw since Ash himself made that "I only want rare Pokemon" comment he it cannot be disputed that they are what he wants. I've been wondering about his various captures, and I think I've come up with the answer- Ash only thinks these Pokemon are rare because he's hardly ever seen another trainer with one that we know of! (That one isn't too serious of a theory, but I can see Ash doing that.)

We didn't really over analyze anything as everything really had simple yes or no answers but because people kept going on and on even if they were wrong it made people like me repeat answers and make them as detailed as possible so the person could realize they were wrong like with Snorlax, can it swim..yes of course it can. But because Ichapokemr decided to keep countering that I had to go into it being strong enough and all that. And of course there are many other examples like me having to keep repeatedly going over why Starters aren't rare.


They are. Wild starters are. Bred starters, you fail to understand, fall into a different category entirely. And remember, not every single trainer has a starter Pokemon. Gym Leaders, for example.

Point is in this thread if people just understood when they were wrong and weren't so hard headed they except what someone said and realized they were wrong which make this thread be like 2 pages instead of 4. Like half the time I posted in this thread I was countering people who countered what I said even though everything I said was based off what has been seen in the Anime where as what they said to counter for the most part was pure speculation.

Alright then. Accept that you are in the wrong sometimes. I'm waiting for you to do so. I'll shut up then.

I except all viewpoints but if someone is gonna say something that is wrong I will correct them just as I would expect someone to correct me if I said something wrong. Course if someone corrects me when I am not wrong or I correct someone when there not wrong then I expect someone to say something just like I have been doing in this thread with people who have said things that weren't either partially or fully right. Because how can we learn if we go on believing half truths or straight out lies, god forbid someone comes into a thread and tries to make it so people stop thinking something is right when its wrong like how can anyone think a Snorlax can't swim lol.

I think you mean "accept". And while I agree with you about "swimming Snorlax", I can't agree with you on much else because you automatically rule viewpoints wrong, even if they are no more speculative then your own.

Ya I can be wrong sometimes like with forgetting Phanphy was gotten via an Egg and last I checked at what point in this thread did I ever say I am never wrong, I mean I just admitted I can be a few words ago lol. You must be thinking of Ichapokemr and I am sure some how he argue the sky is green lol.

It isn't green? (Just kidding, just kidding.) Hmm... you know, the sky isn't always blue either, however. Sometimes it's pink, purple, red, even grey if clouds are covering it. Our viewpoints are equally valid, and you haven't proved a single major point (note the emphasized "major") wrong. You haven't admitted a single major point of your own is wrong either. I guess we could go on arguing forever, but right now I'm as tired of it as you are. I think we should discuss something a bit different, but more for the fact that neither of us will be giving an inch then the fact that "everything's based on speculation so we can't talk." I'll stop now- but if you reply to this with anything but "I agree with you" or "Right, let's talk about something else now", I will not hesitate to continue this argument, pointless thought it may be.

Now, who wants to talk about our favorite HumanXPokemon pairings? (Just kidding!)

Forci Stikane
January 1st, 2007, 07:20 AM
I'm starting to get a headache.

I second this. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous...Poke King, I've admitted before freely when I'm wrong (you can search through my 1000+ posts if you really want to see examples), but I keep arguing with you because the way that you're acting. Art_Critic_Cubone put it into words the best:

don't expect me to listen to anyone who speaks as if theirs is the only true viewpoint.

And that's exactly what you've been doing.

Now I'm not going to cover all of the points you've brought up, since a lot of them are just too ridiculous to bother with, but here we go again:

god forbid someone comes into a thread and tries to make it so people stop thinking something is right when its wrong like how can anyone think a Snorlax can't swim lol.

Ash & co. sure didn't think it could swim, as I remember their reaction to seeing the Snorlax swimming quite well...as surprise.

Ya that shows they did it once, so if you can say they probably did it more why can't I say they probably didn't. Like I said before if I say no to something that hasn't been proven a few of you say but...maybe and your going on speculation but you act like I am wrong when I am going by what we see in the Anime and considering that moment you speak of was one of the few times we have ever since Ash battle someone in his gang out of the hundreds of episodes that isn't saying much in fact to prove they may be doing it outside the Anime.

Bit there IS evidence that they did that (as in having battles outside the episodes) more. There has been more than one episode that had an opening/ending like that, as I said before. One episode in particular that I can think of was back early on in the first season--in the episode with the unofficial gym (the Sandshrew trainer), the show opens with Ash in a battle, and when he wins it he claims that it's his TENTH win. We, however, only saw one victory, so where were the other nine? In between the episodes. That proves that there's more going on then we see (in fact, the gym sign said it had 98 wins when they got there, yet we never saw a single one of them).

For instants Team Aqua and Magma did manage to contain Kyogre & Groudon though they didn't manage to traditionally capture them via Poké Ball for some reason. Raiko was contained, Mewtwo could be considered to be contained until it broke free, Jirachi was temporarily contained, Celebi was caught in Pokémon 4Ever by that Dark Poké Ball thing, Latios is contained in Pokémon Heroes, Deoxys in a way was contained in its hyberantive state or whatever you call it when it was just the jewel thing in Pokémon: Destiny Deoxys, in Pokémon The Movie 2000: The Power of One all three Legendary Birds were contained, a Baby Lugia is contained and as for others nothing is coming to mind.

While Kyogre & Groudon were contained, they were asleep so there ws no resistance, so it can't really be counted (where's the challenge in capturing a sleeping opponent?). Mewtwo stayed there out of its own will because it didn't know better at the time, so that can't count either. And, in response to the Deoxys comment, hibernation is not in any way a form of containment (and it was just out of energy anyway, so that doesn't really count either). The rest are true, though.

we at the time were talking about why he captures Pokémon that everyone assume the Pokémon I listed were ones he tried to capture and was successful at

That's just it--he WASN'T successful at capturing it, since it evolved before he could capture it. It was Primeape that he managed to capture, not Mankey.

1) You said its not all about capturing Pokémon when I said why doesn't he capture Pokémon but I then responded by saying the goal of being a Pokémon Trainer is to capture/train Pokémon. Proven wrong for the first time.

2) You said Ash taught Pikachu Volt Tackle but he didn't. Proven wrong for the second time.

3) You made a comment on how he could forget the whole Normal/Ghost Type thing but I said he wants to be a Pokémon Master so he can't forget something that is basic. Proven wrong for the third time.

4) You said the reason he focused on a small amount of Pokémon was because its better to have a few Level 100's than a bunch of Level 50's and I said if he trained them right they all be Level 100's. Proven wrong for the fourth time.

5) You gave two reasons on why his Pokémon don't evolve and acted like what I said was wrong then I gave a third reason which you seems to think not possible of being the truth which was they weren't trained well enough. Proven wrong for the fifth time.

6) You said my comments lacked in the fact department but all you did in your first post as well as other is spout speculation by saying he may battle Brock in between episodes. Proven wrong for the sixth time.

Art_Critic_Cubone (whom I have to give a big "Thanks" to) already covered most of these for me, but Ash DID teach Pikachu how to actually use Volt Tackle (which I was referring to), and that's not all that I said in my first post (if you'd taken the time to pay attention)...and I said in the first place "for all we know", meaning that I admitted that part was speculation. Of course, there's the rest of it, which came from logic & actual knowledge.

An example of this is say you go to a Pet Store and see a animal that is considered rare in the world but there are like 200 of them in the store at any time, though rare in the world they are common to anyone who goes to the store therefore by that example Starters though rare in the wild are common to Trainers who want them when starting out therefore are not rare to those that matter which are of course are the Trainers because there the ones who have to worry about rarity of Pokémon because there the ones who capture them after all.

..........Okay, let's go with that example. Let's say that that store only sells pets to the people that live in that town. Then, anybody outside of that town would have to go elsewhere to find their pet. Therefore, the rarity of that pet comes back into play for all of those people, regardless of how many are in that store.

You're probably wondering what that has to do with anything. Well, I doubt that every single new trainer goes to Pallet Town to start, so they don't all get a starter that way.

And there's still the fact that each trainer only gets ONE starter, so they have to search for the other two...And there's the earlier-mentioned "disappointment factor" to consider--Ash wanted them in the first place, but couldn't get them because he was late, so when he found them of course he was going to capture them to make up for not getting them before.

Moving on...

I think pokemon master should just mean that you are the best in batteling and you have the strongest pokemon.

I actually think that's a good idea. After all, what does it matter how many Pokemon you have if they're the strongest around? And as for that "Gotta Catch 'Em All!" thing, I think that was done just for kids to go buy the games and/or trade with other people. Of course, that would mean they wouldn't be around to watch the show, so it could have ended up counter-productive...

As for the oppurtunities of catching legendaries there have been various occassions where Ash has had the chance to capture them. Apart from the movies where he could have potentially caught the likes of Entei and the legedary birds, Articuno, Zapdos, and Moltres, throughout the anime he has encountered Ho-oh, Lugia, Suicine, celebi, deoxys, Groudon and Kyrogue, but did not capture niether one of them. As for has anyone captured a legendary before, in theory no but there has been one occassion i do recall back in Hoenn where Ash met a boy who lived on an island in Hoenn that had a Lugia who stayed and played with him.

Well, while there are probably places where he could have tried to catch a legendary, not only wouldn't he (as I think I've said before, he believes/knows that they belong in nature), but the writers wouldn't let him, simply because it would make things too easy for him. And as for the Lugia, wasn't it technically still wild? I sure don't remember seeing it have a Pokeball...

Oh, another post came up while I was busy typing...

I've been wondering about his various captures, and I think I've come up with the answer- Ash only thinks these Pokemon are rare because he's hardly ever seen another trainer with one that we know of! (That one isn't too serious of a theory, but I can see Ash doing that.)

HAHA Yeah, that's possible.

It isn't green? (Just kidding, just kidding.) Hmm... you know, the sky isn't always blue either, however. Sometimes it's pink, purple, red, even grey if clouds are covering it.

Hmm...I've seen red, orange, white, gray, and blue, but never pink or purple. You're lucky if you get to see that.

Now, who wants to talk about our favorite HumanXPokemon pairings? (Just kidding!)

OOH, ME! ME! AshxBayleef FOREVER!! (just kidding!) *is shot*

Mudkip85
January 1st, 2007, 09:41 AM
Well, while there are probably places where he could have tried to catch a legendary, not only wouldn't he (as I think I've said before, he believes/knows that they belong in nature), but the writers wouldn't let him, simply because it would make things too easy for him. And as for the Lugia, wasn't it technically still wild? I sure don't remember seeing it have a Pokeball...


Okay i think we have all covered the issue on the legendaries. I think we can all agree now that no one has ever owned a legendary in terms of have caught it. In summary we had said that legendaries such as articuno and lugia were only friends with other trainers and not owned by them as they were not under their command. We have also said that two of the legedaries of hoenn kyorgue and groudon were also not captured by Team Aqua and Team Magma, as they simply just had the legendaries temporarily undercontrol by having the orbs which made them obey. Legendaries like clebi and deoxy which have been met through their journeys also have not been catchable as celebi had to stay wild to protect the world, and deoxy which had been in severe pain because of the Meteorite and once it was free it wanted to explore the pokemon world.

So i guess in conclusion we can say that no legendaries have ever been actually caught right? But hold on a second! Lets recall from our minds the days back in Kanto, where arcanine was considered as one of the three legendaries in this region. So arcanine is a legendary right but you may ask so who has actually caught this legendary? Well my answer to that is simply Ash's biggest rival Gary. If you remember clearly Gary had managed to catch an arcanine which i think used in the indigo plateau championships. So i think that i have finally found a legendary which has actually been caught by a trainer. *sighs of relief*

~Kipper~

Scarlet Weather
January 1st, 2007, 10:13 AM
So i guess in conclusion we can say that no legendaries have ever been actually caught right? But hold on a second! Lets recall from our minds the days back in Kanto, where arcanine was considered as one of the three legendaries in this region. So arcanine is a legendary right but you may ask so who has actually caught this legendary? Well my answer to that is simply Ash's biggest rival Gary. If you remember clearly Gary had managed to catch an arcanine which i think used in the indigo plateau championships. So i think that i have finally found a legendary which has actually been caught by a trainer. *sighs of relief

Umm... two problems.

1. Gary might have caught Arcanine as a Growlithe, and

2. Arcanine is no longer considered a lengendary, and probably never has been. It is based on a legend, but it is not legendary in itself. I don't remember Arcanine ever being called a legendary, and I watched a good part of the first season.

Hmm.... BayleefXAsh, huh? I like that. My personal favorite human-Pokemon pairing is selfshipping- MeXLatias. *is shot for taking joke too far.*

Mudkip85
January 1st, 2007, 10:30 AM
I don't remember Arcanine ever being called a legendary

From wikipedia It is theorized, however, that Arcanine was one of the original three Legendary Pokémon.

~Kipper~

Scarlet Weather
January 1st, 2007, 11:52 AM
From wikipedia It is theorized, however, that Arcanine was one of the original three Legendary Pokémon.


Last I checked, Wikipedia isn't a canon source. I don't think Arcanine is ever mentioned in the anime as a legend, and it certainly doesn't have the power of one.

Charaxes
January 1st, 2007, 12:43 PM
I think Arcanine is close to be a Legendary with its impressive stats, plus its Pokedex's description, but yeah, it isn't.

Moving on, speaking of Ash's skills, you could further talk about the disparity of the early days, as shown by the observation made by Dogasu in the episode "Hot Matches".

We actually see Satoshi do something that we've never really seen him do before--train a pokemon. Sure, he's been in tons of battles, but we've never really seen him pinpoint specific problems that he saw in his pokemon and worked to correct them. He knew that Hinoarashi couldn't get his flame going fast enough, so he worked on that. He realized that his pokemon wasn't very fast, so he worked on getting Hinoarashi to run faster. At the start of this episode, Hinoarashi is pretty weak. At the end of the episode, it's a lot stronger than it was and is comparable to his other pokemon.

Of course, Ash's done a better job since (Iron Tail, Volt Tackle), but it could make for funny speculation fodder. I guess.

And...James/Cacnea! Yeah!

Poké King
January 1st, 2007, 12:47 PM
*slaps forehead* Okay, let me explain this. What I meant was that even if I was trying to be the best writer in the world, I could still make grammar errors, correct? Well, by the same token, Ash can make stupid mistakes even if he's trying to be a Pokemon master. Touche.
So let me get this straight you make a comment that has nothing to do with nothing and you expect us to tie what you said with Ash some how. If at the end of your comment you said just like how Ash will make mistakes then I would of never commented on it probably but you didn't so don't get mad if someone misconstrues what you say, okay?


Never said he was wrong for the two reasons he gave, just said he was wrong for acting like I was wrong for adding another valid choice which was they weren't trained well, course you took it in a bad way so you could do the whole sarcasm thing because if you took it in the way that any other person would then you couldn't of been a smart alack by being sarcastic.


Your grammar and phrasing is getting so convoluted that I can hardly understand you. Let me see if I've got this straight- you're saying that because I don't agree with you and think you are wrong then I cannot point out that you don't accept my viewpoint as being the correct one, even though I have some supporting evidence and yours is based on speculation? What evidence, you ask? Well, if Ash wins all those battles with basic Pokemon, they must be trained somehow, as it is completely impossible for anyone to be that lucky. Humanly impossible. And another thing, do you ever think about the fact that once again, the only time levels in the anime have been mentioned is in "The School of Hard Knocks"? For the rest of the anime, they pretty much don't matter- therefore, it doesn't matter what "level" they are at, and Ash is training them just fine, thank you. Now get off his back.
Okay this time you really took it somewhere it shouldn't of gone. I simply said I agreed with the 2 reasons he gave but when I added another he acted like I was wrong even though it was valid.

As for my grammar and phrasing, well I am not trying to be an awesome writer so if it gets a bit convoluted ah well.

And I except all viewpoints, what don't you get about that?
Ya I will say someone is wrong when they are but it doesn't mean I don't except your viewpoint. The point of a debate/discussion is to discuss something and give your viewpoints on the subject at hand but in a debate/discussion obviously some people will be wrong and other rightr and when others are right they point it out and so on. So why you getting mad at me for just countering people when there wrong, that is in part the point of a debate/discussion because if we all just 100% accepted what each other said as fact or whatever what be the point of having a debate/discussion.

As for Ash winning with what I like to point out you called basic Pokémon ya you can be that lucky when the show is about you and the writers have your back. And ya he doesn't win every battle in the Anime but that is so we see him have flaws or else we wouldn't watch because we get sick of seeing him never get beat. Also at no point did I say he should win every battle, I just he didn't make sense he won so many battles.

And Ash's training being fine? That might of worked as a valid point if there ever was any real training seen and yes he may train them outside the Anime but as I have said repeatedly that is pure speculation. You all don't seem to even take in account what we see in the Anime and only take in account your imagination.



"Some" here meaning "all". And you do the same thing, Poke King.
Implying I speculate, I will say there have been here and there speculations on my part but most of my comments have been supported by what has been seen in the Anime plus the speculation I did do like saying he probably doesn't train much outside the Anime was like all the speculation I do and all the speculation I do is supported by assumptions and educated guesses based on how he is in the Anime. Therefore if we don't see him train a lot in the Anime its much safer to say he doesn't train much outside the Anime where as saying he must train a lot outside the Anime like you are all saying isn't much of an educated guess on your parts. And ya I did speculate though minor it may have been the difference between me and others speculating other than that I do it much less is the fact I didn't act like its fact when I speculate even though much of my speculation is supported by some good educated guesses based off fact.



But I just did list a bunch of times either Legendaries were caught or contained in some way. And also if you recall the Frontier Brain of the Battle Factory befriended Articuno which got beat by Ash's Charizard so then I guess Ash could of caught it then as it technically wasn't the Frontier Brains.

Yeah- but aside from Articuno and the baby Lugia, who weren't owned by the humans they stayed with, but wanted to stay with them anyway because they were friends, all the others were caught by bad guys, reinforcing the theory that it is considered wrong to capture a legendary Pokemon in the anime. And I wouldn't be evil enough to catch and take away a baby Lugia, or take Articuno from Noland. Besides, Noland would kill me if I did. (By the way, I know you're about to make a comment about Brandon's Pokemon- trust me, don't get me started on the legendaries. It's probably for the best that that particular debate ended.)
Well, I was just saying he could of captured Articuno. Didn't say it be wrong or right to do so, just that he could of.


1. What are we supposed to talk about then? Why Ash's mother has an odd fixation with his underwear?

2.I think the facts can still be disputed, for the most part- oh, and btw since Ash himself made that "I only want rare Pokemon" comment he it cannot be disputed that they are what he wants. I've been wondering about his various captures, and I think I've come up with the answer- Ash only thinks these Pokemon are rare because he's hardly ever seen another trainer with one that we know of! (That one isn't too serious of a theory, but I can see Ash doing that.)
Ya she does have a bit of a fixation lol but that has nothing to do with Ash as a Trainer so no we shouldn't talk about that. As for the facts being able to be disputed, you can't dispute facts because there facts. If you could dispute facts that are proven what be the point of facts? And do I really have to bring the sky color up again? And when it comes to Ash catching Pokémon because he thinks there rare because he never see's Trainers with them, we already went over that but if I must explain again there are a ton of Pokémon so seeing the same Pokémon over & over be tiresome therefore we rarely see the same Pokémon over & over which is why most Trainers we see not only use Pokémon Ash doesn't have but Pokémon we haven't seen at the time. The same applies to Starters as its obvious there are a lot of Trainers out there with them but to make them seem special and rare we don't see them much.

Now you can dispute that since you like disputing facts but go ahead I will just copy & paste this comment to save me some time in the future lol.


They are. Wild starters are. Bred starters, you fail to understand, fall into a different category entirely. And remember, not every single trainer has a starter Pokemon. Gym Leaders, for example.
Never said all Trainers have Starters, I said most of them do and ya there in a different category which is why how you determine there rareness is reversed. Because normally you determine the rareness of a Pokémon by there availability in the wild but like you said Starters are different and because of that you determine there rarity by there availability to Trainers instead and since most Trainers have had or has a Starter then there clearly highly available therefore not rare. And ya there rare in the wild but you said yourself there in a different category so determining there rareness by that isn't the right way to do it and oh ya like I said before as they are specially bred they obviously could be overly bred to the point there common but there not to make them seem more special because as I said what Trainer whats to start off with something common.


Alright then. Accept that you are in the wrong sometimes. I'm waiting for you to do so. I'll shut up then.
Hmm I have before 2 times where as you and Ichapokemr have not at all if I recall right. So does this mean no more replies from you since you said you shut up if I admitted I was wrong?


I think you mean "accept". And while I agree with you about "swimming Snorlax", I can't agree with you on much else because you automatically rule viewpoints wrong, even if they are no more speculative then your own.
Oo ya I slip up on my part but when you have to constantly repeat yourself and do long replies to counter people slip ups are understandable like I wouldn't point out a mistake like that if you did it because I understand but hey thats just me.

Yay someone who agrees on Snorlax, I mean you think it be a simply yes or no thing and as it can swim obviously you think it be a short discussion but Ichapokemr has a way of taking something like that and making it take two pages to answer lol. And I only rule viewpoints wrong if oh I don't know there wrong, like if someone says Ash's Snorlax is special for being able to swim I think we all can agree we say the person who said that is wrong and yet I do it and all of a sudden I am a meanie. And there you go again with saying I speculate, ya I do a little but most of what I say like 97% is based on fact from what has been seen in the Anime where as the other 3% is really good educated guesses based on fact. And since you jumped down my throat on being speculative why don't you jump down Ichapokemr throat because last I checked practically everything he has said is speculation but I guess if you did that then he seem wrong and he could then no longer keep spouting speculation. Also you two seem to like each other so why point out a friends mistakes, right?


It isn't green? (Just kidding, just kidding.) Hmm... you know, the sky isn't always blue either, however. Sometimes it's pink, purple, red, even grey if clouds are covering it. Our viewpoints are equally valid, and you haven't proved a single major point (note the emphasized "major") wrong. You haven't admitted a single major point of your own is wrong either. I guess we could go on arguing forever, but right now I'm as tired of it as you are. I think we should discuss something a bit different, but more for the fact that neither of us will be giving an inch then the fact that "everything's based on speculation so we can't talk." I'll stop now- but if you reply to this with anything but "I agree with you" or "Right, let's talk about something else now", I will not hesitate to continue this argument, pointless thought it may be.

OMG you actually debated the sky comment, damn lol. And ya all our viewpoints start off equally valid but once you state them if there wrong there wrong, i.e. if you say Snorlax can't swim your wrong. Besides I have proven what I said with either direct fact from the Anime like with Tailow or with common sense like with Snorlax. I think your thinking of Ichapokemr so please complain to him and not to a person actually supporting what they says with fact. And I have admitted a point where I was wrong with Phanphy but all the others times I was right pretty much so I ask you how can I admit I am wrong when I am right and you can talk about things using speculation to support them but if I prove you wrong or someone else does with fact you can't act like your right and attack whomever proves you wrong like Ichapokemr does.



I second this. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous...Poke King, I've admitted before freely when I'm wrong (you can search through my 1000+ posts if you really want to see examples), but I keep arguing with you because the way that you're acting. Art_Critic_Cubone put it into words the best:
Ya let me go search through those 1000+ post lol and ya I have admitted I was wrong in this thread...have you, oh thats right you haven't. So you keep arguing with me because of how I am acting, ya and it has nothing at all to do with that I keep proving you wrong lol.


And that's exactly what you've been doing.
Um no, if someone is right then if you notice I don't counter them, like there have been others in this thread who have said stuff but I didn't counter them because there was no need as they were right, its just I keep countering you because you keep either being wrong or being mean to people who prove you wrong like calling people dummies. Notice how you have yet to comment on that still, oh I wonder why lol.


Ash & co. sure didn't think it could swim, as I remember their reaction to seeing the Snorlax swimming quite well...as surprise.
Ya and Ash & co also didn't see that many Snorlax before then either so seeing a Pokémon who you really have never seen much before do something you think they can't because of your stupidity then ya you be surprise too as of course you thought Snorlax couldn't swim either lol. And do we need to keep going over Snorlax's ability to swim, it can swim and there are no if's, and's or but's. If anyone like to disagree I could go into why again and again but damn people you need to realize when your wrong because if you still think it can't swim then you need help.


Bit there IS evidence that they did that (as in having battles outside the episodes) more. There has been more than one episode that had an opening/ending like that, as I said before. One episode in particular that I can think of was back early on in the first season--in the episode with the unofficial gym (the Sandshrew trainer), the show opens with Ash in a battle, and when he wins it he claims that it's his TENTH win. We, however, only saw one victory, so where were the other nine? In between the episodes. That proves that there's more going on then we see (in fact, the gym sign said it had 98 wins when they got there, yet we never saw a single one of them).
Ya there was evidence of 9 battles ooo, that so compensates in explaining why Ash's Pokémon are so powerful and ya it proves battles happen between episodes, never said no battles took place by the way as I just said that is was highly unlikely. And ya we didn't see those 98 wins too, um why would we the character who had those wins was only important enough to be in the show like a second so why would we see those? I think your really scraping the bottom of the barrel if your using that to explain your arguments.


While Kyogre & Groudon were contained, they were asleep so there ws no resistance, so it can't really be counted (where's the challenge in capturing a sleeping opponent?). Mewtwo stayed there out of its own will because it didn't know better at the time, so that can't count either. And, in response to the Deoxys comment, hibernation is not in any way a form of containment (and it was just out of energy anyway, so that doesn't really count either). The rest are true, though.
Well, they were asleep when contained, we don't know if they were asleep at the time of containment and if they were I think they would of woke up just like Kyogre did when Team Rocket messed with it and like Groudon did when Pikachu broke it out which means then the Team's somehow subdued them. And even if you forget everything I just said about them being contained, they are two powerful legendaries contained so doesn't it matter why? As for Deoxys/Mewtwo they were still contained and all that matter is if the legendaries I listed were captured or contained which they all were yet you some how can argue they weren't like you can somehow counter everything I say lol.


That's just it--he WASN'T successful at capturing it, since it evolved before he could capture it. It was Primeape that he managed to capture, not Mankey.
Once again I have to explained this, I listed Pokémon who at the time Ash wanted and ultimately obtained and whether they evolved before capture doesn't matter as I was explaining how the Pokémon he wanted weren't rare or unusual. And he wanted a Mankey and before he got it the Mankey became a Primeape. But all that matters is he wanted a Mankey, it doesn't matter if it evolved because I was showing how the Pokémon he wants aren't rare or unusual and Mankey aren't and even Primeape aren't so if I conceded you were right which you aren't technically then it still prove my point that Ash doesn't capture rare or unusual Pokémon.

Why do I have to go over this again, how do you not get it?


Art_Critic_Cubone (whom I have to give a big "Thanks" to) already covered most of these for me, but Ash DID teach Pikachu how to actually use Volt Tackle (which I was referring to), and that's not all that I said in my first post (if you'd taken the time to pay attention)...and I said in the first place "for all we know", meaning that I admitted that part was speculation. Of course, there's the rest of it, which came from logic & actual knowledge.
Oh so you were saying Ash taught him how to use it better, well guess what you didn't say it like that originally. You said it like he taught Pikachu Volt Tackle so don't get mad at me for saying that was wrong as it was. Now Ash however did train Pikachu to use it better. As for me not paying attention to the rest of what you said, I paid attention to all of it. In the future if you like me to not say something that you say is wrong word it so I understand what your saying, ok?


..........Okay, let's go with that example. Let's say that that store only sells pets to the people that live in that town. Then, anybody outside of that town would have to go elsewhere to find their pet. Therefore, the rarity of that pet comes back into play for all of those people, regardless of how many are in that store.

You're probably wondering what that has to do with anything. Well, I doubt that every single new trainer goes to Pallet Town to start, so they don't all get a starter that way.

And there's still the fact that each trainer only gets ONE starter, so they have to search for the other two...And there's the earlier-mentioned "disappointment factor" to consider--Ash wanted them in the first place, but couldn't get them because he was late, so when he found them of course he was going to capture them to make up for not getting them before.

Ya all Trainers don't go to Pallet Town but they all do receive a Starter of the Region when starting out. As for getting the other Starters like Ash did, that proves my point as Ash managed to find 4 Squritle (Much more if you count that island of Squirtles/Wartortle and Blastoise), 1 Bulbasaur (2 if you count May's) and a Charmander (If you count the Charific Valley Charizard there are much more Charmande in the wild too) who probably was the Starter of the Trainer who abandoned it. Which means 2 of these supposed rare Starters were found in the wild easily. Course that doesn't include all the other Starters Ash found easily in his travels. Plus even though they may not be shown greatly in the wild last I checked we don't see many Poochyena or Fearow but we know they exist heavily so why can't you concede that maybe Starters are in the wild and that we just don't see them much not because there uber rare but because the writers don't want us to because if we did we wouldn't think there special anymore.




Moving on...
Ya could we really, I am a bit tired of having to go over things 2 & 3 times and sometimes even more.

If you all like just list what you think has yet to be fully proven and I will prove them one way or the other with fact so we can stop debating them as it really is getting tiresome to do this over & over.

Miss Reyna
January 1st, 2007, 01:53 PM
I not sure if you saw my reply about the starters but I really think you can count them as rare. The only place you can fine them common is maybe at starter pokemon labs like Professor Oak's because they may breed them themselves in order to keep up the demand from starter trainers. It just sounds wrong for a man like Professor Oak to order pokemon like charmanders from a certain place. Kinda like Team Rocket-ish if you ask me. My idea on the starter pokemon is that the professors breed them. As of starter pokemon in the wild then they have to rare since we don't see them in episodes commonly. Some times we get to see screenshots of the wildness but they have some common looking pokemon but no starters. What I think there are certain places like the forest where May bulbsaur was found and the blastoise island. To me because they are found in certain places like where I mention they are consider rare. Still there is no proof as in 'in show' wise where the professor's get the pokemon to give to starter trainers. Still you haven't told us your view on where the professor's get their pokemon. Also not to be mean but what do the rarity of starter pokemon have to do with the abilities of Ash as a pokemon trainer.

I am kinda confuse on your veiw point on why Ash isn't a good trainer to help set this tread on the right path. It seems like to me that this thread's topic has gone a little off from where it started. I can see this is a very debatable topic on the abilities of Ash but try not to go over board. It is only a tv show with some holes. Teeheehee

Scarlet Weather
January 1st, 2007, 02:16 PM
So let me get this straight you make a comment that has nothing to do with nothing and you expect us to tie what you said with Ash some how. If at the end of your comment you said just like how Ash will make mistakes then I would of never commented on it probably but you didn't so don't get made if someone misconstrue what you say, okay?

If you're too dense to understand that one, Poke King, you really should just quit making discussion boards. My point was that it is human to make a mistake, and Ash is human. Just because he wants to become the best doesn't mean that he can't mess up every so often. And it's "nothing to do with anything." I can understand an occasional slip up, but when you make word mistakes like that constantly it makes it harder for me to take you seriously.

Ya all Trainers don't go to Pallet Town but they all do recieve a Starter of the Region when starting out. As for getting the other Starters like Ash did, that proves my point as Ash managed to find 4 Squritle (Much more if you count that island of Squirtles/Wartortle and Blastoise), 1 Bulbasaur (2 if you count May's) and a Charmander (If you count the Charific Valley Charizard there are much more Charmande in the wild too) who probably was the Starter of the Trainer who abandoned it. Which means 2 of these supposed rare Starters were found in the wild easily. Course that doesn't include all the other Starters Ash found easily in his travels. Plus even though they may not be shown greatly in the wild last I checked we don't see many Poochyena or Fearow but we know they exist heavily so why can't you concede that maybe Starters are in the wild and that we just don't see them much not because there uber rare but because the writers don't want us to because if we did we wouldn't think there special anymore.


Wait- if this is an in-universe discussion, why are we bringing the writers into it? (I am on the brink of insanity right now. If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were trying to incite me to flame you just so you could watch me get banned.) Yes- bringing the writers into it explains everything, but then there is nothing to discuss. You defeat the entire purpose of the board, which was to discuss how it could be possible for Ash to do some of the things he does on the show based on the show itself. If you just say "The writers wanted it to happen like this" that's all well and good, but then you have no reason to talk about it. In conclusion, Poke King, if you already have all of the answers you want and will obviously not change your mind, you may as well just leave, because nothing, I repeat, NOTHING you have said so far has shown me that you are able to rationally discuss things. Now, let's say that you were right all along, that your explanation WAS in fact the only true one- why would you discuss it with other people? The point of a discussion where you ask someone "what do you think?" (which is what this is) is to listen to their viewpoints and then present your own, modifying it in the face of evidence. What you are doing here is attempting to convince everyone that you are correct. What you do in that case is present a "this is why" board, then ask people if they agree. This is not a board where one person has the answers, this was a board for multiple people to put them together. If you defeat the purpose of your own board, you may as well have never created it. Oh, and one other thing- on Venus, the sky is yellow-green.

Ya could we really, I am a bit tired of having to go over things 2 & 3 times and sometimes even more.

If you all like just list what you think has yet to be fully proven and I will prove them one way or the other with fact so we can stop debating them as it really is getting tiresome to do this over & over.


Good- here's my list- but it's of things that I think are proven, just so we can eliminate them from discussion:

1. Ash makes mistakes and still wins because he is an ordinary person.

2. Ash wanted to capture rare or unusual Pokemon originally.

3. Some, if not all, of Ash's Pokemon, are rare and unusual.

4. Starters should be considered rare.

5. Poke King thinks that disputing his viewpoint is like calling the sky green.

6. What he fails to understand is that sometimes we're talking about the Venusian sky.

7. Snorlax can swim. Are you happy now?

8. Ash has trained against Brock at least once, and has battled off-screen at least nine times, making the speculative theory that he trains between episodes more plausible then the one that he doesn't.

9. ACC think Latias is beautiful, and wouldn't object to- (Oh, wait, wrong time...)

10. Poke King will probably not listen to this, and will not stop driving me slightly mad.

11. Ash's Pokemon are tough enough to win battles, even with disadvantages. There is no reason to suppose that Ash is just a lucky freak.

12. Poke King can't understand sarcasm even if it hits him in the face. Case in point:

Ya she does have a bit of a fixation lol but that has nothing to do with Ash as a Trainer so no we shouldn't talk about that. As for the facts being able to be disputed, you can't dispute facts because there facts. If you could dispute facts that are proven what be the point of facts? And do I really have to bring the sky color up again? And when it comes to Ash catching Pokémon because he thinks there rare because he never see's Trainers with them, we already went over that but if I must explain again there are a ton of Pokémon so seeing the same Pokémon over & over be tiresome therefore we rarely see the same Pokémon over & over which is why most Trainers we see not only use Pokémon Ash doesn't have but Pokémon we haven't seen at the time. The same applies to Starters as its obvious there are a lot of Trainers out there with them but to make them seem special and rare we don't see them much.

Now you can dispute that since you like disputing facts but go ahead I will just copy & paste this comment to save me some time in the future lol.

I was being sarcastic about the "Ash's Undies" comment. You are officially dense. I was also halfway joking about Ash thinking Pokemon are rare because he doesn't see other trainers with them. I doubt you're on the school debate team. And another thing- if we don't see much of them, isn't it kind of logical that it's more plausible to think that they really are rare then to invent some speculative thing about "Oh, they're just all over the place but we never see them." That logic doesn't apply to the "off-screen battle" idea because it is proven that there have been battles between episodes, and thinking there might be others that just aren't mentioned is therefore logical. Keh.

Well, they were asleep when contained, we don't know if they were asleep at the time of containment and if they were I think they would of woke up just like Kyogre did when Team Rocket messed with it and like Groudon did when Pikachu broke it out which means then the Team's somehow subdued them. And even if you forget everything I just said about them being contained, they are two powerful legendaries contained so doesn't it matter why? As for Deoxys/Mewtwo they were still contained and all that matter is if the legendaries I listed were captured or contained which they all were yet you some how can argue they weren't like you can somehow counter everything I say lol.

1. Contained of their own free will isn't the same as captured. Captured means you were caught without your own consent.

2.You're speculating when you clearly state you only want facts. This is a case of "give us what you want".

Ya there was evidence of 9 battles ooo, that so compensates in explaining why Ash's Pokémon are so powerful and ya it proves battles happen between episodes, never said no battles took place by the way as I just said that is was highly unlikely. And ya we didn't see those 98 wins too, um why would we the character who had those wins was only important enough to be in the show like a second so why would we see those? I think your really scraping the bottom of the barrel if your using that to explain your arguments.

Or he just did his research.

Ya all Trainers don't go to Pallet Town but they all do recieve a Starter of the Region when starting out. As for getting the other Starters like Ash did, that proves my point as Ash managed to find 4 Squritle (Much more if you count that island of Squirtles/Wartortle and Blastoise), 1 Bulbasaur (2 if you count May's) and a Charmander (If you count the Charific Valley Charizard there are much more Charmande in the wild too) who probably was the Starter of the Trainer who abandoned it. Which means 2 of these supposed rare Starters were found in the wild easily. Course that doesn't include all the other Starters Ash found easily in his travels. Plus even though they may not be shown greatly in the wild last I checked we don't see many Poochyena or Fearow but we know they exist heavily so why can't you concede that maybe Starters are in the wild and that we just don't see them much not because there uber rare but because the writers don't want us to because if we did we wouldn't think there special anymore.

Not all- three. One for each starter the proffesor receives. And since many trainers in the anime do not have starters it is obvious that these Pokemon are not given to "all trainers". Self-contradiction, my boy.

Ya let me go search through those 1000+ post lol and ya I have admitted I was wrong in this thread...have you, oh thats right you haven't. So you keep arguing with me because of how I am acting, it has nothing at all to do with that I keep proving you wrong.

Why should he? Our evidence, even if it is only by a little, is stronger then your own.

OMG you actually debated the sky comment, damn lol. And ya all our viewpoints start off equally valid once you state them if there wrong there wrong, i.e. if you say Snorlax can't swim your wrong. Besides I have proven what I said with either direct fact from the Anime like with Tailow or with common sense like with Snorlax. I think your thinking of Ichapokemr so please complain to him and not a person actually supporting what they says with fact. And I have admitted a point where I was wrong with Phanphy but all the others times I was right pretty much so I ask you how can I admit I am wrong when I am right and you can talk about things using speculation to support them but if I prove you wrong or someone else does with fact you can't act like your right and attack whomever proves you wrong like Ichapokemr
does.

Oh, so you admitted you were wrong about a point that wasn't even really that important, and you expect me to bow down and kiss your feet for it? Not a chance. We know you admitted you were wrong about Phanphy, you've told us so many times that it's getting annoying. Stop attacking Icha, if you want to attack anything, debate his ideas. This is a debate about a show, not a user. Besides, I would have told you if I was talking about Icha. You must think I'm too dumb to know what I'm talking about. Wrong....

Well, I was just saying he could of captured Articuno. Didn't say it be wrong or right to do so, just that he could of.


I'm telling you why he didn't.

Implying I speculate, I will say there have been here and there speculations on my part but most of my comments have been supported by what has been seen in the Anime plus the speculation I did do like saying he probably doesn't train much outside the Anime was like all the speculation I do and all the speculation I do is supported by assumptions and educated guesses based on how he is in the Anime. Therefore if we don't see him train a lot in the Anime its much safer to say he doesn't train much outside the Anime where as saying he must train a lot outside the Anime like you are all saying isn't much of an educated guess on your parts. And ya I did speculate though minor it may have been the difference between me and others speculating other than that I do it much less is the fact I didn't act like its fact when I speculate even though much of my speculation is supported by some good educated guesses based off fact.

So do we, and we show our facts.

Okay this time you really took it somewhere it shouldn't of gone. I simply said I agreed with the 2 reasons he gave but when I added another he acted like I was wrong even though it was valid.

As for my grammar and phrasing, well I am not trying to be an awesome writer so if it gets a bit convoluted ah well.

And I except all viewpoints, what don't you get about that?
Ya I will say someone is wrong when they are but it doesn't mean I don't except your viewpoint. The point of a debate/discussion is to discuss something and give your viewpoints on the subject at hand but in a debate/discussion obviously some people will be wrong and other rightr and when others are right they point it out and so on. So why you getting mad at me for just countering people when there wrong, that is in part the point of a debate/discussion because if we all just 100% accepted what each other said as fact or whatever what be the point of having a debate/discussion.

As for Ash winning with what I like to point out you called basic Pokémon ya you can be that lucky when the show is about you and the writers have your back. And ya he doesn't win every battle in the Anime but that is so we see him have flaws or else we wouldn't watch because we get sick of seeing him never get beat. Also at no point did I say he should win every battle, I just he didn't make sense he won so many battles.

And Ash's training being fine? That might of worked as a valid point if there ever was any real training seen and yes he may train them outside the Anime but as I have said repeatedly that is pure speculation. You all don't seem to even take in account what we see in the Anime and only take in account your imagination.


Poke King, you don't know what you are talking about. You have been proven by this whole discussion to be unable to accept viewpoints (not facts, viewpoints) that are not your own. And once again, writers enter the discussion. Don't talk. And you don't accept all viewpoints, or if you do you don't consider them valid. Additionally, you are yelling at Icha too much- quit it.

Charaxes
January 1st, 2007, 02:42 PM
Cubone couldn't have said it finer. And yeah, King, you have been on Ichi's case. Of course, everyone jumped on the other (and that's why we have a PM system) about their speculation process in this one. I'd say everything that needed to be said, was said, plus several things more. The point of the exercise is "yes, you were wrong", but it's the connotation of saying they're wrong. The tone, inflection, if you will. And text doesn't help.

That being said, at a 100 posts+, I'd say we covered enough. I want to spare any further headaches on both Ichi and Cubone's behalf (plus, myself). So, I'm locking it. Enjoy the memories.