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Prince Roserade
March 15th, 2007, 02:58 AM
Just have something on my mind, and I wanna see what people think.

Does anybody else feel, with regards to the starters of all generations (in particular with the final evolution of said starters) that they're just a little too... typical? predictable? I don't know how to describe it.

But think: all the Grass starters stand on four legs and are dinosaurs with good defenses, and kinda slow, the exception being Sceptile. Uh, predictable, hello? All the Fire starters are generally speedy, and bipedal and, well, fairly predictable. And Water types are always heavy, and generally slow with high HP, good attack or special attack, and decent defenses.

What I am getting at people is the fact that I would like to see a line of starters that just amazes me. The kind of Pokémon that hits me in the face and I don't even know what hit me. That makes people go "Whoa! Didn't see that one coming!"

You feeling me? I've seen fakes done by fans and some are really amazing because they're so original. Say, for example, a Fire type that is slow, and a quadruped, I don't know, maybe a fire goat (okay, that'd be probably be fast, bad example). Or a ghost. Or whatever. Something that is not remotely in any way shape or form similar to what we have seen. Or maybe not that drastically different, but different enough. Infernape? Been there, done that. Sceptile? Well, it is original in that it stands on two feet and is actually speed unlike its Grass starter counterparts, but nevertheless not that original, because it's a gecko which is a reptile and thus not that far from a dinosaur. =/

Okay, I'll stop talking now. Please tell me if I am making any sense, and whether or not you agree, or whatever it is you've got to say. ^^ By the way, there is no particular reason why I am posting this now. Just something I thought of. And I don't hate any of the starters in particular, either. I actually like all of them, believe it or not, especially the Grass types. ^^ I just wish to see more originality in the next generation of starters (assuming there'll be one). =/

goofy_charizard_girl
March 15th, 2007, 04:54 AM
Well you have a point there. I actually never though of that, but now that you made this thread I too think it would be really great, if there is going to be any new pokemon, that they would be more unique^^ Though I also like all of the starters:D
And about you liking some of the unoriginal fanart pokemon. Maybe it would be good if all those ppl who draw their own pokemon could send their ideas on an original pokemon site of Satoshi Tajiri or whoever draws new pokemon now and then ppl on that site would exept some of pokemon fans' ideas and made those pokemon originals. But that's just an idea^^

Alter Ego
March 15th, 2007, 06:47 AM
Actually, there are already a couple of quadrupedal fire types (Numel, Camerupt, and Torkoal), just not among the starters as they are so dang weak, and the 'strong and sluggish' is actually a staple of the type (Throw in Slugma, Magcargo and the magma-thingie legendary from D/P). What I'd like to see in that regard is a fire type that is neither in the 'fast and furious' or 'I have no speed' category but instead something in-between. I agree that another fire/fighting starter right after R/S/E is a bit of a letdown. Plus, I was kind of hoping for a Gorilla as the end product. But overall, I think these starters are good show. First off, on the Grass starts...Venusaur - despite the misleading translation - is not modled after a dinosaur, it's a giant toad. Similarly, Turtwig and its evos aren't dinosaurs; they're turtles, so the dino-trend is mostly in your own head. Just because it's big and walks on four legs it doesn't mean it's a dinosaur. I for one didn't expect to see a turtle-beetle cross with a plant growing from its head to be a starter, same goes for a penguin (Although I'm slightly disappointed by the way they styled that line).

What did come as a pleasant surprise was the typing decisions. Grass/Ground and Water/Steel are both new, and certainly seem like a refreshing change from the very predictable typings (With the exceptions of Swampert's Water/Ground) that predominate among the earlier starters.

Overall, I think the starters are fairly good. But I do agree that a Fire/Ghost type would be cool (Fire so needs new type combos). It's just that Ghost - being immune to Normal and Fighting attacks - is a bit too strong a type for a starter as it would result in some very easy battles early on (where movesets are still very limited and rely largely on normal moves for damage). I wouldn't say no to a Fire/Dragon either, stereotypical though it is. And how about a Fire/Bug? (Fireflies, anyone?) Probably not very strong combinations but at least they'd provide a bit of change.

Overall, I thought that they were being a bit more original with this generation's starters than before, but then again, I tend to be more picky about the strategic perspective of things so I might be satisfied easier on the design part. ^^

Prince Roserade
March 15th, 2007, 06:24 PM
Posted by goofy_charizard_girl:
And about you liking some of the unoriginal fanart pokemon. Maybe it would be good if all those ppl who draw their own pokemon could send their ideas on an original pokemon site of Satoshi Tajiri or whoever draws new pokemon now and then ppl on that site would exept some of pokemon fans' ideas and made those pokemon originals. But that's just an idea^^

I think the same, but I'm afraid it'll never happen. =/ *sigh*

Posted by Alter Ego:
Actually, there are already a couple of quadrupedal fire types (Numel, Camerupt, and Torkoal), just not among the starters as they are so dang weak, and the 'strong and sluggish' is actually a staple of the type (Throw in Slugma, Magcargo and the magma-thingie legendary from D/P). What I'd like to see in that regard is a fire type that is neither in the 'fast and furious' or 'I have no speed' category but instead something in-between.

Well, maybe they could be quadrupeds that aren't that slow but in-between like you say. Like a llama or a goat. XD

I agree that another fire/fighting starter right after R/S/E is a bit of a letdown. Plus, I was kind of hoping for a Gorilla as the end product. But overall, I think these starters are good show.

XD I'm actually glad it didn't end up as a gorilla. I do not like gorillas, lol.

First off, on the Grass starts...Venusaur - despite the misleading translation - is not modled after a dinosaur, it's a giant toad. Similarly, Turtwig and its evos aren't dinosaurs; they're turtles, so the dino-trend is mostly in your own head. Just because it's big and walks on four legs it doesn't mean it's a dinosaur.

Actually, Torterra iwould be a tortoise, not a turtle. But it is also part dinosaur, XD. The ankylosaurus - a quadruped dino with spikes on its back (not stegosaurus-like) and large tail. It is mostly a tortoise, but the dinosaur element is most definitely there. And even if it was not, tortoises are still reptiles, so the same pattern is still true of Grass.

As for Venusaur, okay, I didn't realise that. Somehow I've always seen some dinosaurian in it, though I cannot say it actually resembles any dinosaur I know. I guess somehow I saw something that wasn't there, XD, yet at the same time I've always known it was a giant toad. XD

I for one didn't expect to see a turtle-beetle cross with a plant growing from its head to be a starter, same goes for a penguin (Although I'm slightly disappointed by the way they styled that line).

Turtle-beetle? XD It's no beetle :P.

And yes, the penguin was a nice surprise, especially the Steel typing. It still is like the other Water starters, though: slow, good HP, good defenses, so not very innovative there =/. Not to mention is has very little to use in its movepool.

What did come as a pleasant surprise was the typing decisions. Grass/Ground and Water/Steel are both new, and certainly seem like a refreshing change from the very predictable typings (With the exceptions of Swampert's Water/Ground) that predominate among the earlier starters.

Indeed. I completely agree. :D

Overall, I think the starters are fairly good. But I do agree that a Fire/Ghost type would be cool (Fire so needs new type combos). It's just that Ghost - being immune to Normal and Fighting attacks - is a bit too strong a type for a starter as it would result in some very easy battles early on (where movesets are still very limited and rely largely on normal moves for damage). I wouldn't say no to a Fire/Dragon either, stereotypical though it is. And how about a Fire/Bug? (Fireflies, anyone?) Probably not very strong combinations but at least they'd provide a bit of change.

Definitely! My friend Seán thinks so, too. He'd like to see a speedy Water bug, based off a water giant 'roach or something. It'd be creepy, but original. And Fire/Bug would definitely rock, though it's likely it'd somehow end up looking draconian (the final evo), which would be just as cool, IMO.

Anyway, I actually feel the same way, too, believe it or not. I'm satisfied this generation, even with Infernape, because of the versatility all three starters have shown. ^_^ The design could have been more original, but hey, Grass-Ground and Water-Steel? That is definitely a good start. ;D

Alter Ego
March 16th, 2007, 05:09 AM
Well, maybe they could be quadrupeds that aren't that slow but in-between like you say. Like a llama or a goat. XD

Lol, a llama pokémon would be awesome. ^0^ Just got to ask, though: what would it evolve to? A bigger llama? xD


XD I'm actually glad it didn't end up as a gorilla. I do not like gorillas, lol.

Nyu...how can you not like gorillas? Besides, it would have been a far more impressive final evolution imo. The way it is, the fire starter is kind of dwarfed in appearance. I mean, some random chimp against a huge tortoise-thing supporting a whole tree or a large emperor penguin? That's not even a contest as far as appearances are concerned. xP Plus, Chimchar kind of doesn't go through much of a change in evolution (Just compare the second and third stages) which would certainly not be the case if the final form was huge, chest-beating gorilla. xD

Actually, Torterra iwould be a tortoise, not a turtle. But it is also part dinosaur, XD. The ankylosaurus - a quadruped dino with spikes on its back (not stegosaurus-like) and large tail. It is mostly a tortoise, but the dinosaur element is most definitely there. And even if it was not, tortoises are still reptiles, so the same pattern is still true of Grass.

Point taken about the tortoise thing, and I can definitely see the dino here, but weren't you saying that the trend was 'dinosaurs' specifically rather than reptiles in general? Because, you know, Treecko is quite definitely a Gecko with no real dinosaurishness to it (Grovyle resembles that missing link between dinosaurs and birds, though, can't remember its name >.<), and the Bulbasuar line is still of toadish persuasion so not all of the starters are dinos. Anyway, do remember that there are certain aesthetic things to consider with starters. I think there's a lot of cool Grass types (Victreebel, Cradily, and Roserade in particular) but none of them are really starter material because their final forms aren't really...impressive enough in terms of size and appearance. (Okay, Cradily is a possible exception here, but it's a fossil so...meh) They also need to go through three stages (Typically cutesy first, sort of an in-between second, and a big, hulking (or stylish sleek and agile) final) and I suppose that dinos and reptiles are an easy way to fit those three in. Legs also seem to be something of a requirement, so that kind of rules out a lot of the grass domain (like Bellsprout, Oddish & co.). Also, some great pokémon just...aren't starter material. For instance, I like the Hoppip line, but I just couldn't picture them as starters, you know? Too much of the cutesy all way through.


Turtle-beetle? XD It's no beetle :P.

Actually, there was big argument about that a while back, as half the Japanese name apparently translates into 'beetle'. Plus, there was the point about the claws (Very non-tortoiseish) so the conclusion was that it was probably a mixture of the two and I feel inclined to stick to it. ^^

And yes, the penguin was a nice surprise, especially the Steel typing. It still is like the other Water starters, though: slow, good HP, good defenses, so not very innovative there =/. Not to mention is has very little to use in its movepool.

Actually, Enperuto (I still can't bring myself to use the dumb translation name >.<) is a bit more offensive than the earlier starters (Well, I guess Feraligatr is on par) with its cool 111 base SAtk, plus the ability to learn Surf, Ice Beam, and Grass Rope (Meaning full type coverage). Yeah, the Speed is crappy, but in D/P there's Trick Room to turn that right around. (And let's not forget about the Agility eggy move either) I do agree that Enperuto got the weakest movepool of the three, but they can all be lived with. Plus, Aqua Ring seems cool. ^^

Definitely! My friend Seán thinks so, too. He'd like to see a speedy Water bug, based off a water giant 'roach or something. It'd be creepy, but original. And Fire/Bug would definitely rock, though it's likely it'd somehow end up looking draconian (the final evo), which would be just as cool, IMO.

Anyway, I actually feel the same way, too, believe it or not. I'm satisfied this generation, even with Infernape, because of the versatility all three starters have shown. ^_^ The design could have been more original, but hey, Grass-Ground and Water-Steel? That is definitely a good start. ;D

Hmm...water giant roach, eh? Can't say I've heard of it, but bugs also needs more coverage (Surskit was just...bleah, and lost its original typing on evolution too xP). And yeah, some designs could have been more original, definitely, but I agree that it's good show overall. Minus the baby boom. Urghh...I just loathe all the disgustingly made-to-be-cute (But turning out very creepy) babies out there, particularly Happini and Budew. I mean, I love Roserade...but why the heck did they have to throw in a creepy pre-evo? Roselia is bad enough. Oh, and the translations make me want to stab someone, stupid and rushed, but that's hardly the topic here. xP

Aegis
March 16th, 2007, 05:27 AM
I had sort of noticed what you are saying, but I never got to annoyed with it. I'd certainly love to see like a Fire-Cat, Grass-Bird, and Water ... not sure. But think about it, only one starter could fly, and that was in the very original. I think it'd be awesome to have another flying starter.

Prince Roserade
March 16th, 2007, 11:42 PM
Posted by Alter Ego:
Lol, a llama pokémon would be awesome. ^0^ Just got to ask, though: what would it evolve to? A bigger llama? xD

An alpaca with horns, maybe? XD *shot* That's the same thing a friend pointed out: there is not that much you could do with a llama for starter. ^^''

Nyu...how can you not like gorillas? Besides, it would have been a far more impressive final evolution imo. The way it is, the fire starter is kind of dwarfed in appearance. I mean, some random chimp against a huge tortoise-thing supporting a whole tree or a large emperor penguin? That's not even a contest as far as appearances are concerned. xP Plus, Chimchar kind of doesn't go through much of a change in evolution (Just compare the second and third stages) which would certainly not be the case if the final form was huge, chest-beating gorilla. xD

Never mind the gorillas, now I realize what you're saying. I do not know how to use Imperial system, so I had no idea Infernape was that friggin' small. When I asked my friends and they tell me, I'm like "WTF? Dude, I'm taller than that! O_O"

Srsly, it phailed. Indeed, a Gorilla would have been more suitable. And maybe it could even just have been plain Fire, and that way people wouldn't complain about it being a copy of Blaziken. =/

Point taken about the tortoise thing, and I can definitely see the dino here, but weren't you saying that the trend was 'dinosaurs' specifically rather than reptiles in general? Because, you know, Treecko is quite definitely a Gecko with no real dinosaurishness to it (Grovyle resembles that missing link between dinosaurs and birds, though, can't remember its name >.<), and the Bulbasuar line is still of toadish persuasion so not all of the starters are dinos.

XD, yes. I ended up switching my argument without realizing it. I guess then, that we can agree that they are all reptiles, except for Venusaur. (Mega is dinosaur, Sceptile is gecko, Torterra is tortoise).

And for Grovyle, did you mean the Archaeopterix? Now that you mention it, it's true that Grovyle resembles one a bit. Heh! Sceptile could have been a Grass-Flyer!! Well, it'd have more weaknesses, but at least it'd be even more original and unique.

Anyway, do remember that there are certain aesthetic things to consider with starters. I think there's a lot of cool Grass types (Victreebel, Cradily, and Roserade in particular) but none of them are really starter material because their final forms aren't really...impressive enough in terms of size and appearance. (Okay, Cradily is a possible exception here, but it's a fossil so...meh) They also need to go through three stages (Typically cutesy first, sort of an in-between second, and a big, hulking (or stylish sleek and agile) final) and I suppose that dinos and reptiles are an easy way to fit those three in. Legs also seem to be something of a requirement, so that kind of rules out a lot of the grass domain (like Bellsprout, Oddish & co.). Also, some great pokémon just...aren't starter material. For instance, I like the Hoppip line, but I just couldn't picture them as starters, you know? Too much of the cutesy all way through.

That is a very good point, and I had not thought of that. Indeed, it makes more sense now for all the starter choices. Maybe this was what my friend Jax was getting at? i.e. As cool as a fire goat and/or llama would be, goats and llamas are not really big enough/massive enough fto be starter material. She did not say that, but I reckon that's what she was getting at and I did not understand.

Anyway, not all my ideas are bad ;). Me and another friend think it'd be awesome to see a Water starter that is a cute dolphin, evolves into a porpoise, and the final evo is a big orca (not as big as Wailord nor Kyogre), but about as large).

Actually, there was big argument about that a while back, as half the Japanese name apparently translates into 'beetle'. Plus, there was the point about the claws (Very non-tortoiseish) so the conclusion was that it was probably a mixture of the two and I feel inclined to stick to it. ^^

Oh, I had no idea. O.o

Actually, Enperuto (I still can't bring myself to use the dumb translation name >.<) is a bit more offensive than the earlier starters (Well, I guess Feraligatr is on par) with its cool 111 base SAtk, plus the ability to learn Surf, Ice Beam, and Grass Rope (Meaning full type coverage). Yeah, the Speed is crappy, but in D/P there's Trick Room to turn that right around. (And let's not forget about the Agility eggy move either) I do agree that Enperuto got the weakest movepool of the three, but they can all be lived with. Plus, Aqua Ring seems cool. ^^

Grass Rope is not very useful, IMO. But he does learn Luster Cannon, a special Steel attack. What I am dissapointed with is that it gets Earthquake, Drill Peck, etc. and can't really use it. You could, I suppose, combine those two with Swords Dance and it'd be half-decent, but really, in terms of special attacks, it's got nothing but the good ol' Surf and Ice Beam, and Luster Cannon. It should have gotten Shadow Ball, too, at least, or maybe even Land Power, the special Ground attack similar to Earthquake. =/

Urghh...I just loathe all the disgustingly made-to-be-cute (But turning out very creepy) babies out there, particularly Happini and Budew. I mean, I love Roserade...but why the heck did they have to throw in a creepy pre-evo? Roselia is bad enough.

XD, same. However, I thought at first that Budew's purpose was to make it tough to get Roserade, since Roserade is so good, right? Well, no. Both Roselia and Budew are common in Sinnoh, which makes you wonder what the friggin' point of Budew is, other than learning Extrasensory and thus giving one more cool move for Roserade. It's a waste of Pokeslot, all the same. >_>


Posted by Prince Gryph:
But think about it, only one starter could fly, and that was in the very original. I think it'd be awesome to have another flying starter.

Indeed! It'd be awesome to have a Grass-Flying dragon, or maybe a griffin or hippogryff that was Fire-Flying (Charizard should have been Fire-Dragon, not Fire-Flying)... I don't know what could work for Water-Flying, though. Perhaps a fisher eagle? Those are pretty darn huge, XD.

Aegis
March 17th, 2007, 05:13 AM
Indeed! It'd be awesome to have a Grass-Flying dragon, or maybe a griffin or hippogryff that was Fire-Flying (Charizard should have been Fire-Dragon, not Fire-Flying)... I don't know what could work for Water-Flying, though. Perhaps a fisher eagle? Those are pretty darn huge, XD.

That would be big, ;P. Hmm... Maybe a Water-Flamingo or something? I'm not that up to date on my water dwelling birds, xD. I can picture one, but I can't remember it's name. Ah well...

~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~
March 17th, 2007, 05:59 AM
I know Pokemon makes there monsters look so obvious and simple they need to go outside of the box

:t354:~*!*~Queen Boo~*!*~

Stevo-kun
April 26th, 2007, 11:34 AM
You know, you also have Ponyta for the Quadruped Fire types, and it's faster, being a horse, and, the only thing I was really dissappointed with in these new games was the serious lack of Fire types, seriously, they are just overhauling the water types, sure, they are nice, but there are way too many of them.

A good fire type combo if you have grass/ground and water/steel would be maybe.. Fire/Psychic? I dunno, but I do agree that another Fire/Fighting type as a starter is not new, but, Infernape is hardly a rip off of Blaziken. I mean, Blaziken is more of a Bird type Gryphon type thing, where as Inernape is more a Monkey/Baboon type Pokemon, obviously, so, if anyone says Infernape is a rip off of Blaziken, they need their eyes tested, seriously. Plus, for me, Infernape has that whole Shaolin/Japanese Martial Art thing going.

Chikara
April 26th, 2007, 01:05 PM
I see what you mean, and since you just brought that up, I just now started to think about it. You're completely right. But I'm not complaining, because then I'll know what to expect. It's just like the Gyms, in all of the games(as many as I've played which are only FR/LG, R/S, E, and D/P) They all start out with a rock type gym, then change up from there.

Its a good point though.

Ichida
May 1st, 2007, 05:57 AM
I think Empoleon is the best starter thus far, simply because it breaks out of traditional roles and mixes Water with Steel, giving it quite a lot of elemental resistances in addition to its high defensive and special attack stats. While I respect proper tradition and appreciate the triality of Grass/Fire/Water, I have to admit I was intrigued and excited when that false rumor that the new starters would be Fight/Psy/Dark was announced on Serebii.