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AquaLeaderMatt
April 27th, 2007, 05:59 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't count Lugia as a legendary? I honestly don't think it should be given the title. I mean, in the Animé, it has a child, and legendaries can't breed! And just because he was featured in movie 2, doesn't mean he's legendary. Look at Lucario.

Alter Ego
April 27th, 2007, 06:31 AM
Am I the only one who doesn't count Lugia as a legendary? I honestly don't think it should be given the title. I mean, in the Animé, it has a child, and legendaries can't breed! And just because he was featured in movie 2, doesn't mean he's legendary. Look at Lucario.

Actually, certain legendaries can breed (Manaphy and its baby evolution, anyone?) and not all of them are unique (as with the Latis, hence why they have genders) so no, I don't agree with this shoddy piece of argumentation at all. So it had a child in the anime? Where precisely in the anime might this be? As I recall, Lugia should be dormant at the bottom of the sea. o.O Regardless, it's definitely legendary on account of the following:

1. It features in the pokémon world's legends, as seen in the games and also - although I loathe to use the crappy cliché-hive that it has become as an example - the anime.

2. It's essentialy Ho-oh's counterpart (Kind of like with Kyogre and Groudon), unless of course you also want to dispute Ho-oh's claim to the title of legendary, in which case you're stepping even further onto thin ice.

3. It's listed at the bottom of its region's pokédex, as is customary with legends, and also has the statline (Base stat average over 100), wide movepool, signature move (Aeroblast) and even the 'Pressure' trait, all typical characteristics of legendaries.

4. It is not only genderless but also belongs to the 'No Eggs' egg group. Hence, unlike regular genderless pokémon like Staryu or Beldum, it can't breed with anything, even Ditto. D:

5. It's unique in the games with set locations, its own overworld sprite (certainly not common fare for G/S/C) and both in the G/S/C and advance generation games you need a specific key item to even get an attempt to catch it. The fact that this item - in Advance - is only obtainable through Nintendo events furhter proves its legendary status, ever seen a non-legendary have its special, very own secret area designed into the game? I can't bring any to mind.

6. It even has a game (Pokémon XD) basically centered around it for crying out loud! >_<

All this balanced against your weak argument of 'it had a kid in the anime'...need I repeat my position? Lugia is certainly a legendary by any measure thereof that I can think of, and that movie appearance bit hardly refutes any of these arguments. Seriously, what convinced you to even put forward this absurd idea in the first place? Are you trying to justify that Lugia in your T-card or something? -.-

Clow
April 27th, 2007, 09:00 AM
Hello, I mostly agree with Alter, but I have my own stand point. True a Lugia did have a child somewhere in the Johto part of the Anima, but that Lugia was Female, or Female0-ish as far as I could tell, and the one in the Movie was male-ish. Know, just because Legendaries refuse to breed in captivity doesn’t mean they won’t breed at all, I mean there’s full set of legendary birds in both Red/Blue and XD, you expect me to believe there one in the same? I think not. And there’s also the legendary birds in the anima, here’s a good example, Articuno. There is one in the movie, there is a sighing of one in the show, and one is befriended by the Frontier Brain Noland, I honestly doubt these three are one and the same. So there’s my two cents ^_^.

Shiny Umbreon
April 27th, 2007, 09:20 PM
The only reason every legendary, including Lugia, is legendary:
It cannot be obtained more than once in a single Pokémon game. (Without cheat devices/glitches/trading)

About the anime thing, let me tell you the anime is crap. It contradicts many of the things from the games. And, about breeding, Manaphy is the only case of a breedable legendary. Lugia CANNOT breed, and if it could, it wouldn't stop being legendary.

~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~
April 28th, 2007, 04:39 AM
I really dont know the definition of a legendary so I go by what the game or anime says

:t354:~*!*~Queen Boo~*!*~

acrof
April 28th, 2007, 12:58 PM
Here´s the baby lugia shown in the anime:
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/tvsea05_012.jpg

Actualy Lugia is a guardian, not a legendary.
Legendaries aren´t strong as guardians, and they aren´t so important either.
Like Lugia is the guardian of the sea, and Ho-oh of the sky (although Kyogre and Rayquaza are the guardians of that too)

and Entei (for example) is the volcano pokemon, not the guardian of the volcanoes.

Legendary pokemons are the following:
Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Entei, Raikou, Suicune, the Regis (except Regigas), Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf.

Guardians are all the rest. (Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, Celebi, Latios, Rayquaza, Groudon, Palkia, Dialga, Drakrai, Lucario, etc.........................

Drew
April 28th, 2007, 01:58 PM
Yeah, its true Lugia is a guardian, but I've also always thought of it as a Legendary as well.
I mean, at the time it was introduced it was called a Legendary, so I always just went with that.

Either way, it doesn't really matter to me what it is, its still awesome. x3

Smarties-chan
April 29th, 2007, 12:16 AM
Any post that uses the anime as back-up has the words 'Fail' printed on it in huge red letters. ._. The anime does not only contradict the manga and games, but it also contradicts itself in more ways I can bother to count. The manga and games, however, don't contradict each other, which definitely makes the anime the odd man out.
Here´s the baby lugia shown in the anime:
http://www.pokemonelite2000.com/tvsea05_012.jpg

Actualy Lugia is a guardian, not a legendary.
Legendaries aren´t strong as guardians, and they aren´t so important either.
Like Lugia is the guardian of the sea, and Ho-oh of the sky (although Kyogre and Rayquaza are the guardians of that too)

and Entei (for example) is the volcano pokemon, not the guardian of the volcanoes.

Legendary pokemons are the following:
Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Entei, Raikou, Suicune, the Regis (except Regigas), Uxie, Mesprit, Azelf.

Guardians are all the rest. (Mewtwo, Mew, Lugia, Celebi, Latios, Rayquaza, Groudon, Palkia, Dialga, Drakrai, Lucario, etc.........................
Okay, where did this guardian crap come from? Yes, Lugia was referred to as the guardian of the sea in the second movie, but that does not mean it isn't legendary. Give us some proof of all this guardian stuff and maybe I'll believe you. However, even if guardians (if those even exist in Pokémon. <.<) and legendaries aren't the same thing, guardians would still be above the legendaries because the Pokémon you listed as ''legendaries'' can mostly just bring destruction, whereas many of the ''guardians'' you listed can either calm down the legendaries and/or are obviously their superiors. For example, Lugia has the power to calm down the legendary birds which obviously makes it superior to them. It's also considerably stronger in the games than the legendary birds. Same with Raikou, Entei and Suicune and Ho-Oh, IIRC Ho-Oh had some kind of connection to the legendary beasts in the manga and is obviously higher up than them because it has the power to give life. As for the three Hoenn Regis being legendary and Regigigas only being a guardian, that's completely illogical. Not only is Regigigas much bigger, but it also has higher stats and the three other Regis are required to awaken it from its slumber. It obviously means its higher up than the Hoenn Regis.

Also, would you care to explain how exactly Lucario is a guardian? It's not one of a kind, nor is it exceptionally strong. It even has a pre-evo that evolves into Lucario unlike the Manaphy/Phione shizzle. It starred in a movie, but that doesn't mean anything. After all, Unown starred in their own movie, too, but that doesn't make them legendary, does it?

AquaLeaderMatt
April 30th, 2007, 06:58 AM
Actually, certain legendaries can breed (Manaphy and its baby evolution, anyone?) and not all of them are unique (as with the Latis, hence why they have genders) so no, I don't agree with this shoddy piece of argumentation at all. So it had a child in the anime? Where precisely in the anime might this be? As I recall, Lugia should be dormant at the bottom of the sea. o.O Regardless, it's definitely legendary on account of the following:

1. It features in the pokémon world's legends, as seen in the games and also - although I loathe to use the crappy cliché-hive that it has become as an example - the anime.

2. It's essentialy Ho-oh's counterpart (Kind of like with Kyogre and Groudon), unless of course you also want to dispute Ho-oh's claim to the title of legendary, in which case you're stepping even further onto thin ice.

3. It's listed at the bottom of its region's pokédex, as is customary with legends, and also has the statline (Base stat average over 100), wide movepool, signature move (Aeroblast) and even the 'Pressure' trait, all typical characteristics of legendaries.

4. It is not only genderless but also belongs to the 'No Eggs' egg group. Hence, unlike regular genderless pokémon like Staryu or Beldum, it can't breed with anything, even Ditto. D:

5. It's unique in the games with set locations, its own overworld sprite (certainly not common fare for G/S/C) and both in the G/S/C and advance generation games you need a specific key item to even get an attempt to catch it. The fact that this item - in Advance - is only obtainable through Nintendo events furhter proves its legendary status, ever seen a non-legendary have its special, very own secret area designed into the game? I can't bring any to mind.

6. It even has a game (Pokémon XD) basically centered around it for crying out loud! >_<

All this balanced against your weak argument of 'it had a kid in the anime'...need I repeat my position? Lugia is certainly a legendary by any measure thereof that I can think of, and that movie appearance bit hardly refutes any of these arguments. Seriously, what convinced you to even put forward this absurd idea in the first place? Are you trying to justify that Lugia in your T-card or something? -.-

No offence, but I think its kind of pathetic that you'd type all that out just to prove a point. A simple 'no, I don't agree, here's 2 reasons why:' would have done. And, this thread is, as the title suggests, for people who do NOT count Lugia as a legendary, and if I wanted people telling me their opinion about why it IS a legendary, I would have posted that, so I'd be greatful if you'd not post here again =]

Smarties-chan
April 30th, 2007, 09:06 AM
No offence, but I think its kind of pathetic that you'd type all that out just to prove a point. A simple 'no, I don't agree, here's 2 reasons why:' would have done. And, this thread is, as the title suggests, for people who do NOT count Lugia as a legendary, and if I wanted people telling me their opinion about why it IS a legendary, I would have posted that, so I'd be greatful if you'd not post here again =]
No offence, but it's kinda pathetic not to state why you think as you do. Forums are meant to express your opinions on things, and it makes you sound much more convincing if you if you actually prove your points right. ._. Also, whether it was your intention or not, this thread is a discussion of whether or not Lugia is a legendary, and I see no reason why people that don't agree with you wouldn't have the right to contribute to the topic. Sounds to me like you're just upset because not everyone agrees with you. You may say and think whatever you want about Lugia not being legendary, but the evidence are against you.

Deskmenu
April 30th, 2007, 11:28 AM
No offence, but it's kinda pathetic not to state why you think as you do. Forums are meant to express your opinions on things, and it makes you sound much more convincing if you if you actually prove your points right. ._. Also, whether it was your intention or not, this thread is a discussion of whether or not Lugia is a legendary, and I see no reason why people that don't agree with you wouldn't have the right to contribute to the topic. Sounds to me like you're just upset because not everyone agrees with you. You may say and think whatever you want about Lugia not being legendary, but the evidence are against you.
That post is mad of win and awesome.
Lugia is a legendary Pokemon because he appears in legends,ergo Legendary.
Also Games don't equal Anime

AquaLeaderMatt
April 30th, 2007, 11:30 AM
No offence, but it's kinda pathetic not to state why you think as you do. Forums are meant to express your opinions on things, and it makes you sound much more convincing if you if you actually prove your points right. ._. Also, whether it was your intention or not, this thread is a discussion of whether or not Lugia is a legendary, and I see no reason why people that don't agree with you wouldn't have the right to contribute to the topic. Sounds to me like you're just upset because not everyone agrees with you. You may say and think whatever you want about Lugia not being legendary, but the evidence are against you.


Meh, makes no difference to me why people agree or not, and I sort of did express my thoughts, but they're my own, and what's with all the ganging up here anyway? I sort of own all of you by default if there's any ganging up ;)

Rivvon
April 30th, 2007, 12:35 PM
I honestly don't go by what the anime says. The games came first and thus they should be more accurate/official. The in the game, apparently there is one Lugia. In the anime, they can reproduce like any other common Pokemon. But according to Pokemon guides based off of the anime, a new Entei - which is a Legendary, as in the game it cannot reproduce - is born whenever a volcano erupts. So in the anime there is more than one Entei. And Lugia. And Articuno (Noland, anyone?)! In fact, if I didn't know better, there'd probably be more than one of each legendary except for those oddities like Mewtwo, Mew, Groudon, Ryaquaza, etc.. And in the fourth movie they comment on how Celebi's "friends" (all the different Celebis of different time periods) came to help him. So in the anime, there is even more than one Celebi. So is it right to consider Lugia a non-legendary just because it's offspring has been given more publicity than others? It's your opinion, which is fine, but I'm saying that I think it's a bit too much to consider the emphasis of Silver and Ho-oh's counterpart a non-legendary because it had babies in the anime.

I'd also like to comment on what other members have touched on, which is Manaphy's illegitimate lovechild, Phione. Game-wise, Manaphy is the first legendary to have a pre-evolution. But it's still a legendary, right? Diamond and Pearl broke a lot of traditions when it came to making new Pokemon, so it shouldn't be too big of a deal that Lugia has (really darn cute!) kids in the tv show.

weedle_mchairybug
April 30th, 2007, 05:35 PM
In regards to the topic, yes, Lugia is indeed a Legendary. Just because it breeds does not mean it is not a legendary. it was made quite clear in all pokemon media that it is indeed a legendary. Also, Off topic but to Smarties-kun:

Any post that uses the anime as back-up has the words 'Fail' printed on it in huge red letters. ._. The anime does not only contradict the manga and games, but it also contradicts itself in more ways I can bother to count. The manga and games, however, don't contradict each other, which definitely makes the anime the odd man out.

Ummm... no offense, but about the Anime being the only Pokemon media to contradict itself or any other Pokemon media, the games kind of contradict themselves as well. For evidence for the games contradicting themselves,

1. The Mew entry in the researcher diary on cinnabar island stated that it gave BIRTH to Mewtwo, and yet the pokedex entry for Mewtwo said that it was more or less the result of a gene-splicing experiment, and gave absolutely no hint that it was the offspring of Mew.

2. The Pokedex entries stated that Marowak gave childbirth and dies as a result, and yet when you breed a Marowak, not only does it live after breeding, but it lays an egg.

3. Cubone's Pokedex entry states that it's skull helmet came from the remains of it's dead mom (Marowak), and yet when a cubone hatches, it also seems to be born with the skull helmet latched onto it's head.

4. Vulpix's pokedex entry stated that it was born pale and with a single tail, but when hatched from the egg, it has it's 6 tails and its normal coat.

5. Kadabra's pokedex entry hints that it was originally a human being, however, from the multitudes of Kadabra (not to mention that it can evolve into another pokemon [Alakazam], and breed to create it's pre-evo [Abra].) it doesn't really seem to be the case.

6. Mew was called the ancestor of all pokemon even in Diamond and Pearl, and yet they mentioned Arceus being the creator of all pokemon.

7. And not to mention the multitudes of legendaries despite them being genderless and one of a kind (Emerald battle frontier, anyone? or how about the Colosseum/XD games? or how about FR/LG [there is the part where Entei/Raikou/Suicune are running around Kanto despite the fact that the 3 beasts are not supposed to awake for another 3 years.]?)

I can't really say the same for the manga, but they did state that Misty was some rich lady in one manga, and yet was not mentioned to be that in the games, plus, they made some of the gym leaders rocket members (or ex rocket members, in Blane's case), when, with the exception of Giovanni, it wasn't the case at all in the games.

AssassinX
April 30th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Luiga is a legendary, therfore it should be considered as such. Besides Luiga is awesome, but I prefer Moltres, Ho-oh, or Grudon anyday of the week.

Lihinel
May 1st, 2007, 02:57 AM
First, don't confuse gamemechanics with ingame lore.
And secondly, don't try to find one true pokémon lore, there are far to many products out now.

So before you try to ask a question like this, you might first try to find a real definition of what you mean by "legendary".
Than you might go on and find all pokémon that are part of the group whose members got the "legendary" attribute.

Hands down, language sucks.

Ichida
May 1st, 2007, 05:47 AM
I live and judge by the games, not the hundreds of episodes of filler that comprise the anime, and Lugia is a legendary.

Prince Roserade
May 1st, 2007, 07:42 AM
Lugia not a legendary?

Check out the stats. Not even Dragonite and Salamence have it that good. Period.

acrof
May 1st, 2007, 03:45 PM
Okay, where did this guardian crap come from? Yes, Lugia was referred to as the guardian of the sea in the second movie, but that does not mean it isn't legendary. Give us some proof of all this guardian stuff and maybe I'll believe you.
That will be funny to explain:

"Guardian" is a word used in tournaments and even in the GBA´s Battle Tower (it doesn´t have that name, but you know that it exists) to those pokemons that are stronger than "normal" pokemons and for that reason are too strong to compete.

Also in some sites and even in pokemon magazines, the term "guardian" is also used to describe this kind of pokemons.
Mew and Mewtwo as "the guardians of humanity", lugia and kyogre as "the guardians of the sea", Celebi as "the guardian of the forest" or even "the guardian of the time", etc..........

I don´t need to prove anything, it´s just real, and you can see it in the games (celebi as the guardian of the forest) and in the anime too.

Death Rogers
May 1st, 2007, 04:14 PM
Lugia is a legendary. Manaphy can breed, and no one goes around saying "Manaphy's not a legendary!"

Shiny Umbreon
May 2nd, 2007, 05:40 PM
Ummm... no offense, but about the Anime being the only Pokemon media to contradict itself or any other Pokemon media, the games kind of contradict themselves as well. For evidence for the games contradicting themselves,

1. The Mew entry in the researcher diary on cinnabar island stated that it gave BIRTH to Mewtwo, and yet the pokedex entry for Mewtwo said that it was more or less the result of a gene-splicing experiment, and gave absolutely no hint that it was the offspring of Mew.

"Mew gave birth" is not that literal. It just means Mewtwo was made from Mew's genes.

2. The Pokedex entries stated that Marowak gave childbirth and dies as a result, and yet when you breed a Marowak, not only does it live after breeding, but it lays an egg.

3. Cubone's Pokedex entry states that it's skull helmet came from the remains of it's dead mom (Marowak), and yet when a cubone hatches, it also seems to be born with the skull helmet latched onto it's head.

4. Vulpix's pokedex entry stated that it was born pale and with a single tail, but when hatched from the egg, it has it's 6 tails and its normal coat.

5. Kadabra's pokedex entry hints that it was originally a human being, however, from the multitudes of Kadabra (not to mention that it can evolve into another pokemon [Alakazam], and breed to create it's pre-evo [Abra].) it doesn't really seem to be the case.

6. Mew was called the ancestor of all pokemon even in Diamond and Pearl, and yet they mentioned Arceus being the creator of all pokemon.

There's nothing wrong there. Mew was the 'ancestor'. Now Arceus is the 'creator'. It means Arceus made Mew, and Mew became all the other known species.

7. And not to mention the multitudes of legendaries despite them being genderless and one of a kind (Emerald battle frontier, anyone? or how about the Colosseum/XD games? or how about FR/LG [there is the part where Entei/Raikou/Suicune are running around Kanto despite the fact that the 3 beasts are not supposed to awake for another 3 years.]?)

Battle frontier doesn't make sense with their legendaries but the C/XD thing is logical. They are another story involving legendaries. For example, Lugia exists. It might have been caught by Gold or by Red at Navel Rock or by Michal in XD. That's still kind of contradicting, but remember C/XD are not REAL Pokémon RPGs.

Should I remember you FR/LG are remakes, which means they are not original stories but a past story 'updated' with many things, among them the new Pokémon. But it's not part of the storyline. Nobody ever mentions the dogs.

The others are just a mix of game mechanics with the history itself.

To end with the real-Pokémon-world argument, the games came first. Then the anime and manga were based on them.

In conclusion:

*The games (R/B/Y/G/S/C/R/S/E/D/P) are canon.
*Lugia cannot breed in the games, so it cannot breed. (Which doesn't have to do with its legendary status)
*As I stated before, legendaries doesn't have to do with stats, number in the PokéDex, locations, breeding ability, legends about them. It's a fan-made (I believe) term that refers to "Pokémon that cannot be obtained more than once in a single Pokémon RPG without glitches, trading, etc."

Sassafras
May 3rd, 2007, 11:02 AM
Lugia is definatly Legandary. He is a Legand to the poeople in the games

Innagadadavida
May 5th, 2007, 03:02 PM
In regards to the topic, yes, Lugia is
2. The Pokedex entries stated that Marowak gave childbirth and dies as a result, and yet when you breed a Marowak, not only does it live after breeding, but it lays an egg.


This is still possible though. In D/P if you talk to one of the town members in the breeding town (I forget the name) they say that nobody has ever seen a Pokemon lay an egg. They also hint that Pokemon may not even lay eggs at all. But that raises the question of how they obtained the information about Marowak and Cubone in the first place.

In regards to the topic, yes, Lugia is
6. Mew was called the ancestor of all pokemon even in Diamond and Pearl, and yet they mentioned Arceus being the creator of all pokemon.


THe Pokedex entry of Arceus states.
"It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms."
Keyword being "mythology". Which could mean that Arceus is NOT the creator. Dibs are still up for Mew being the ancestor.

In regards to the topic, yes, Lugia is
... how about FR/LG [there is the part where Entei/Raikou/Suicune are running around Kanto despite the fact that the 3 beasts are not supposed to awake for another 3 years.]?)


We have no way of knowing how fast time passes in the game. It may be three years until you beat the Elite Four.


You raise some very interesting points, and I agree with most of what you said.

Lt. Surge's Raichu
May 5th, 2007, 03:58 PM
I will always see Lugia as a legendary :)
It is just that way ^^

CowFreak5
May 14th, 2007, 05:33 PM
Lugia is a legendary. All of the "guardians" are legendaries, like Mewtwo, Celebi, etc.

And the anime just sort of ruins the legendaries by making them less legendary. Like Lugia's child. Or the 1st Battle Frontier battle with Articuno.

Typhoon
May 14th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Luigi IS legendary. Just because Mario gets the girl and all the attention doesn't mean you Luigi isn't legendary. There's a Baby Luigi, but nobody has ever seen Luigi lay an egg, so you don't even know if Luigis come from eggs, so that's not a valid argument. Also, There's only one Luigi, but there are tons of Koopas. I rest my case.

Lugia is a legendary. It may have a child in the anime, and it may even have a child in the game, but you can't breed it (it won't give us babies cuz it's too special to make babies with a weird Ditto).

Magestia
May 15th, 2007, 12:28 PM
The Anime messes everything up. As opposed to the "Only One" rule of the game, the anime does not follow this, and because of this you will have seen more than one of any legendary bird.

Vulpix-trainer K
May 15th, 2007, 01:09 PM
What in the world does it matter that Lugia has babies in the anime? As stated before the anime is not really following it's own canon, but on the other hand it's true that the games also mess up sometimes.
The main reason why you can only get one Moltres, one Lugia or one Ho-oh is to make the gameplay fair.
What would pokemon be easy with 6 Lugia's or 6 Ho-oh's in your team wouldn't it?
That's also why you can only get one starter a time, to make it fun to choose that perfect starter of yours. If you'd be able to catch them all eventually, it wouldn't make the choosing so exiting and fun. Not to mention the trading (also a very big feature of the Pokemon games which some people tend to forget.)