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Voltagenic
May 30th, 2007, 05:43 AM
I see, in every battle thread, NO UBERS.

What do people have against them?

..And don't tell me that bullcrap about "too strong", "no challenge". People only say that because they hate losing to people that use ubers.

Now, what's the REAL reason everyone's holding a grudge against ubers?

Alter Ego
May 30th, 2007, 06:07 AM
Bullcrap indeed. -.- Ubers are by their very definition pokemon whose combination of statline, movepool, and trait puts them in a different class than most other pokemon species. Let's take Latios for instance; while holding Soul Dew (Assuming maximized Speed and SAtk EVs, as anyone with common sense would have it) it has the power to OHKO or two-hit KO everything except the toughest special walls. (That's SDef-geared Defense Deoxys, Lugia, and Blissey with maximized SDef and HP) Latios also has a very good Speed stat, meaning that most non-uber things won't even get a hit in on it, and even if you do get a hit on Latios it basically takes a CBed bug attack (Preferably Megahorn) or a seriously buffed up ice attack to OHKO it. Kyogre, on the other hand, enjoys a slightly less impressive sweeper statline but sets up permanent rain, turning plenty of swift swimmers into killing machines. (Choice Specs Kingdra, anyone?)

Sure, OUs (or even UUs) played right can beat ubers played bad, but that doesn't change the fact that - assuming equal or comparable skill levels - ubers have an unfair advantage over most pokemon from the other tiers. The fact that you would dismiss the obvious advantages of usually having at least 20 advantage in all base stats (coupled with a superior movepool and trait) as bullcrap only goes to prove that you obviously have no idea about what you're going on about. The tiers exist to match pokemon of comparable power levels with each other and thus create interesting battles where strategy is more important than brute force. (Hence why we also have distinctions between OU, UU, and NU. Putting Volbeat against Heracross just isn't cricket.) Putting ubers against regular tiers is about as fair as putting a heavyweight against a featherweight in wrestling. xP

So yeah, grow up, stop whining because people don't want to fight your Mewtwo/Kyogre/Aruseus/whatever, and learn some strategy. Either that or try putting on a search for uber players. Oh, and just for the heck of it; why don't you try defining what pokemon belong to uber for me? I'm honestly questioning whether you even know the correct answer to that.

Personally, my gripe with ubers is that they are primarily run by whiny, clueless people who think that randomly assembling the strongest species and slapping on the moves with the highest base power makes a strong team. This means that facing these people will just be a matter of whether or not they know what the heck those pokemon are good at doing (which most people don't) and quite a few times some sore loser decides to get testy because I KOed his Groudon with a Tangela. xP Restricting the most glaringly obvious beatsticks (Although I still don't see why the sucky Speed Deoxys made the cut) is basically a way to lessen the number of power-mashing idiots and create battles where you can actually learn something.

Voltagenic
May 30th, 2007, 07:01 AM
So yeah, grow up, stop whining because people don't want to fight your Mewtwo/Kyogre/Aruseus/whatever, and learn some strategy. Either that or try putting on a search for uber players. Oh, and just for the heck of it; why don't you try defining what pokemon belong to uber for me? I'm honestly questioning whether you even know the correct answer to that.



I'm not whining.

I never said I was trying to whine about anything.

And don't go saying some bullshit about how I supposedly have no strategy, as you don't even know how I battle.

So you shut the **** up, and stop assuming that I am like that.

Alter Ego
May 30th, 2007, 07:09 AM
I'm not whining.

I never said I was trying to whine about anything.

And don't go saying some bullshit about how I supposedly have no strategy, as you don't even know how I battle.

So you shut the **** up, and stop assuming that I am like that.

So why don't you answer my question correctly or counter my strategy-based arguments to prove me wrong, then? Folding your arms and spouting curses, good sir, seems like whining to me, as does this:

..And don't tell me that bullcrap about "too strong", "no challenge". People only say that because they hate losing to people that use ubers.

This is essentially a chidlish 'is not!' type denial of the argument and you have yet to support it by any proper reasoning. You haven't made any arguments; just spouted opinions. That isn't a discussion, which is what this section is for.

I've battled competitively through NetBattle long enough to know that no-one truly confident about their abilities and knowledge of strategy would react in such an infantile way. Yes, I'm partially guessing, but this is founded on several years of experience. Care to act your age and try to prove me wrong rationally or would you prefer to continue treating this like a swearing contest? Typing 'Bullshit' over and over again is not helping your case, you know.

Voltagenic
May 30th, 2007, 07:16 AM
Basically, you're just passing me off as a n00b, because I use ubers.

Now, where's the fairness in that?

Alter Ego
May 30th, 2007, 07:21 AM
Basically, you're just passing me off as a n00b, because I use ubers.

Now, where's the fairness in that?

Now when did I claim to be fair? I prefer being honest about my opinions, thank you very much, so kindly keep your value judgements to yourself.

Incidentally, I'm not passing you off as a n00b because you use ubers; I'm saying that you don't know what you're talking about because you obviously don't understand why ubers have their own tier (If you did, you would never have started this thread), and the fact that you're still ignoring any opportunity to actually prove me wrong seems to be supporting my case. Fair or not, I base my opinions on evidence (namely, your posts here and simple facts about pokemon and their abilities) whereas you just seem to be typing things at random. Kindly define 'uber', at least; we can't really discuss something if we don't have a consensus about what that something is, at least not if we want that discussion to be 'fair' as you put it.

Voltagenic
May 30th, 2007, 07:26 AM
Now when did I claim to be fair? I prefer being honest about my opinions, thank you very much, so kindly keep your value judgements to yourself.

Incidentally, I'm not passing you off as a n00b because you use ubers; I'm saying that you don't know what you're talking about because you obviously don't understand why ubers have their own tier (If you did, you would never have started this thread), and the fact that you're still ignoring any opportunity to actually prove me wrong seems to be supporting my case. Fair or not, I base my opinions on evidence (namely, your posts here and simple facts about pokemon and their abilities) whereas you just seem to be typing things at random. Kindly define 'uber', at least; you can't really discuss something if we don't have a consensus about what that something is.

Well then.

You could've said that I didn't know what I was talking about, instead of saying I should get some strategy.

It would've prevented this turn of events.

Alter Ego
May 30th, 2007, 07:39 AM
Well then.

You could've said that I didn't know what I was talking about, instead of saying I should get some strategy.

It would've prevented this turn of events.

Ahh...so obviously this

The fact that you would dismiss the obvious advantages of usually having at least 20 advantage in all base stats (coupled with a superior movepool and trait) as bullcrap only goes to prove that you obviously have no idea about what you're going on about.

isn't saying anything about that. -.- Seriously, read before you reply; that is what prevents stuff like this from happening.

Oh, and I'm still waiting for that definition of 'uber'. Funny how those parts of my posts always seem to escape your notice. :O

Voltagenic
May 30th, 2007, 07:42 AM
Oh, and I'm still waiting for that definition of 'uber'. Funny how those parts of my posts always seem to escape your notice. :O

It didn't escape my notice, I'm just not doing it.

Alter Ego
May 30th, 2007, 08:01 AM
It didn't escape my notice, I'm just not doing it.

Still maintaining a mature attitude to this, I see. *Sigh* Fine, feel free to sulk for yourself, then. I won't take this further since it's obviously not going anywhere and neither of us wants a flame war, I'm sure. Just though I'd point out that if you're one of the many who equate ubers with legendaries then that would at least have made your argument understandable. As it is...actually, in line with the anti-flame war stance I think I'll just stop here and leave you to your preaching and creation of flaming threads (http://www.pkmncommunity.com/showthread.php?p=2504305#post2504305). Hope you have lots of fun with them. :O

kohei
May 31st, 2007, 02:47 AM
I basically skipped all other posts since I can't be bothered to read through it.
Sorry if I say anything that is already covered.

I don't mind ubers at all, actually. In fact I use a Regice for battles against friends, and they don't seem to care.

I just think that there is a huge divide between "overpowered godlike ubers" and "plain ubers".
For example, if you had the choice to use either an Uxie, Mesprit or Azelf, most likely you'll choose Uxie to use as a wall or Azelf as an attacker. Mesprit is much more mediocre and "standard" out of the three, and not a good choice in both cases. Heck, some people might not consider these three uber at all (that particular friend I was talking about thinks these three are uber, while I don't.)

It's hard to separate these two groups simply because of conflicting opinions, so I guess that's why people just generalize and "ban" ubers. It's easier that way after all.

Alter Ego
May 31st, 2007, 03:03 AM
I basically skipped all other posts since I can't be bothered to read through it.
Sorry if I say anything that is already covered.

I don't mind ubers at all, actually. In fact I use a Regice for battles against friends, and they don't seem to care.

I just think that there is a huge divide between "overpowered godlike ubers" and "plain ubers".
For example, if you had the choice to use either an Uxie, Mesprit or Azelf, most likely you'll choose Uxie to use as a wall or Azelf as an attacker. Mesprit is much more mediocre and "standard" out of the three, and not a good choice in both cases. Heck, some people might not consider these three uber at all (that particular friend I was talking about thinks these three are uber, while I don't.)

It's hard to separate these two groups simply because of conflicting opinions, so I guess that's why people just generalize and "ban" ubers. It's easier that way after all.

Actually, you're one of the many who don't know the definition of 'uber', then. Ubers are precisely what you call 'overpowered godlike ubers'; pokemon with a base stat total of over 500 or exceptional movepools and/or traits that make them stand out. Those pokemon are:

Mew
Mewtwo
Wobbuffet
Ho-oh
Lugia
Kyogre
Groudon
Latias
Latios
Rayquaza
Deoxys
Shaymin
Darkrai
Aruseus
Cresselia (I'd still be okay with the use of this one, though, as there are so few walling pokemon that make the cut in D/P)
Heatran
Palkia
Dialga

All legendaries not listed here fall into the OU tier. Also, note that one of the ubers is actually a non-legendary: Wobbuffet. This one is an exception because of the extremely powerful combination of the Shadow Tag trait, its counter attack moves and encore which basically assures that it will either KO whatever it switches into or mess it up so that the next switch-in can do as much. Mew is on the list with a 500 base stat total because of its incredibly wide movepool. Regular legendaries (Regi trio, legendary birds, legendary cats, celebi etc.) aren't disbalancingly powerful because - while many of them excel at something - they all have a very obvious and easily exploitable weakness to balance it out (Bug attacks for Celebi, Rock for the legendary birds, etc.). In other words; the examples you mentioned aren't uber. Ubers are, once again, the pokemon that can just plain overpower the OU species, making it an unfair fight. The psychic trio in D/P is hardly uber by any measure, just strong OUs.

kohei
May 31st, 2007, 03:14 AM
Actually, you're one of the many who don't know the definition of 'uber', then. Ubers are precisely what you call 'overpowered godlike ubers'; pokemon with a base stat of over 500 or exceptional movepools and/or traits that make them stand out. Those pokemon are:

Mew
Mewtwo
Wobbuffet
Ho-oh
Lugia
Kyogre
Groudon
Latias
Latios
Rayquaza
Shaymin
Darkrai
Aruseus
Cresselia (I'd still be okay with the use of this one, though, as there are so few walling pokemon that make the cut in D/P)
Heatran
Palkia
Dialga

All legendaries not listed here fall into the OU tier. Also, note that one of the ubers is actually a non-legendary: Wobbuffet. This one is an exception because of the extremely powerful combination of the Shadow Tag trait, its counter attack moves and encore which basically assures that it will either KO whatever it switches into or mess it up so that the next switch-in can do as much. Mew is on the list with a 500 base stat total because of its incredibly wide movepool. Regular legendaries (Regi trio, legendary birds, legendary cats, celebi etc.) aren't disbalancingly powerful because - while many of them excel at something - they all have a very obvious and easily exploitable weakness to balance it out (Bug attacks for Celebi, Rock for the legendary birds, etc.). In other words; the examples you mentioned aren't uber.I understand why Wobbuffet is there (though depending on the situation, you can use an attack buffing move while you're encore'd, then as soon as it's effects wear off, you can proceed to one-hit the Wobbuffet.)

However I don't get why Lati@s, Cresselia and Heatran are in the list. They also have definite weaknesses, and are allowed in the Battle Tower. I personally think that "ubers" allowed in the Tower don't count as "mega ubers."
(Obviously, I'm not counting Soul Dew on the Lati family.)



[As a side note]: I've seen some horrible battle rules where they listed the Regi's as banned ubers while the Dogs were OK X(

Alter Ego
May 31st, 2007, 03:27 AM
I understand why Wobbuffet is there (though depending on the situation, you can use an attack buffing move while you're encore'd, then as soon as it's effects wear off, you can proceed to one-hit the Wobbuffet.)

However I don't get why Lati@s, Cresselia and Heatran are in the list. They also have definite weaknesses, and are allowed in the Battle Tower. I personally think that "ubers" allowed in the Tower don't count as "mega ubers."
(Obviously, I'm not counting Soul Dew on the Lati family.)

Well, first off: after Wobbuffet encores, it's not going to stick around; it will be switched out and replaced with a sweeper than can either buff up for a whole-team sweep (like Salamence/Rayquaza) or just bash down the helpless opponent in one shot (CB Heracross etc.).

The Latis are there because of - as you mentioned - Soul Dew. That and the fact that they are pretty adept at covering their weakness for Ice while posessing a movepool and statline capable of handling the other candidate for the sweep: bugs. Also, they both have a base stat total of 510, placing them in the category by the definition of general stat advantage. Their movepools are powerful too, as a it's not hard at all for Latias to settle down with Calm Mind buffing (Which makes all special attacks futile) while shrugging off damage with Recover and finally sweeping through the whole of the opponent's team with buffed-through-the-roof STAB attacks. Latios is even more of a threat because of its 130 base SAtk, which basically means that even without Soul Dew it's a brutal all-out sweeper with the speed to match while also posessing high to decent defensive stats to keep it from being KOed. Generally, all the uber definitions from Advance down have been developed through practical experience on NetBattle. The latis were moved up, I believe, because they basically overshadowed all non-uber special sweepers. (Alakazam, Starmie, etc.) And of course, banning held items is a lot trickier than banning pokemon species.

Heatran I'm actually not 100% sure of, although the stat total is high. It does have a rather weak Speed and a double Ground weak so it might be categorized as OU. *Shrug* I personally wouldn't mind it. Cresselia is there for the pure statline ownage, as its base totals top 500, although as I said: I personally wouldn't mind having Cresselia as an OU either. Still, I guess it looks too much like defense form Deoxys with the abbysmal HP and attack powers (the exploitable weak-spots) patched up. 130 SDef, 120 Def, and 120 HP in base stats combined with a decent SAtk is a very frustrating combination.

Melody
May 31st, 2007, 03:37 AM
Well if you dont like the soul dew then just ban that held item....That'll take Lati family off the uber list and allow them to be used...
Honestly I dont see why ppl hate ubers so much either....All Ubers have weaknesses...and while some of their weaknesses arent big they are there and all it takes is a smart person to exploit it....no pokemon is invincible That goes doubly for ubers....All ubers have a down side....trust me I know....I've been training the buggers ingame for years....I've had every strategy imaginable thrown at me since i started playing pokemon....all ingame....I have intensely studied all uber's stats...some of them may have 1 awesome stat but the rest are just Above average and 1 is even horrible...no true overpowered Pokemon would have stats like that....

Alter Ego
May 31st, 2007, 04:21 AM
Well if you dont like the soul dew then just ban that held item....That'll take Lati family off the uber list and allow them to be used...
Honestly I dont see why ppl hate ubers so much either....All Ubers have weaknesses...and while some of their weaknesses arent big they are there and all it takes is a smart person to exploit it....no pokemon is invincible That goes doubly for ubers....All ubers have a down side....trust me I know....I've been training the buggers ingame for years....I've had every strategy imaginable thrown at me since i started playing pokemon....all ingame....I have intensely studied all uber's stats...some of them may have 1 awesome stat but the rest are just Above average and 1 is even horrible...no true overpowered Pokemon would have stats like that....

Umm...no, that's just plain wrong. Yes, every uber can be beaten, but the point is that they still have an unfair advantage over most OUs. Also, no uber has a horrible score in anything (Except Deoxys, but most forms have insane scores in other stats to compensate for it). 70 to 80 base is high average, and most ubers exceed that in all categories. Try, for instance, to find me a 'weak' stat on Arceus. If you're arguing that most OUs (some of which don't have a single base stat of 120) could fight that thing on equal ground then you seriously don't know what you're talking about. Pokemon of that calibre should be kept separate from the others in order to widen the use of pokemon species (and thus strategies and combinations) and make this game more ineresting. Above 500 in base stat total means that you have - on average - 100 base in each stat, which is considered very strong for good reason. If an uber has a weak in one stat it means that the others will be that much stronger. If anything, the ones with equal spreads close to 500 are the weakest. :O The only exceptions to the high base stats thing are Speed Deoxys (which has a ridiculous amount in Speed and nothing to make that Speed worthwhile) and Regigigas (Because it has a major debiliating trait to par it down). You're honestly not making any more sense to me with this than you did with your silly argument about having Return on Swampert. .__.

To recap: 'uber' and the other tiers exist for the same reason that weight classes exist in wrestling and similar sports. Arguing for the total abolishment of such makes very little sense as they were put there for very good reasons.

Kraka-chan
May 31st, 2007, 10:31 AM
Sorry, but why is Wobbuffet considered an Uber? It isn't exactly a legendary.

<curious>

Alter Ego
May 31st, 2007, 11:11 AM
Sorry, but why is Wobbuffet considered an Uber? It isn't exactly a legendary.

<curious>

Wobbuffet is considered uber because of its ability to trap and then either KO or mess up any given opponent. Shadow Tag is hands down one of the strongest traits in the game, as it just locks down all switching, meaning that any given all-out sweeper will be dead meat because Wobbuffet's godly HP (190 base) will let it soak up basically any attack and give it back double with Counter or Mirror Coat. Against the ones with non-damaging moves, it can use Encore to lock them on their stalling move and then the Wobbuffet player can switch in a suitable counter or a pokemon that can use the free turn to set up and possibly even sweep the opponents team with the gained boost (E.g. Tyranitar, Salamence or Gyarados). It could also be a choice item sweeper like Medicham or Aerodactly that will land several heavy hits on the opponent (most likely resulting in at least one KO) after which Wobbuffet can be switched in again to repeat the process. The title of 'uber' is not about being legendary; it's just that most of the really high-stat wide-movepool pokémon (The ones with obvious advantages in battle, such as Arceus) are legendaries. As I said: lower-tier legendaries (Legendary birds, legendary cats, Regi trio etc.) don't count as uber because their power is comparable to (or in some cases even overshadowed by) a sizeable group of other pokémon and thus they aren't disbalancingly strong opponents.

Das Ende
May 31st, 2007, 05:54 PM
I don't see what's bad about using ubers. I don't use them myself, they're just too...well...overused, you could say. You're taking the point out of it - I think the reason there is a rule like the is because their base stats are higher than other pokemon and therefore giving you the upper hand. To keep things fair, people can include that rule. It's really no big deal. I think other non-ubers or non-legendaries can achieve good stats if trained right.

Myzou
June 1st, 2007, 03:36 AM
Wobbuffet can also Encore and then they will know EXACTLY what move the pokemon will use, and know how to counter/mirror coat it, you seemed to forget it, so can Wynaut, hence why he's on most UBER lists too. And then he can destiny bond if he's low on health, taking out 2-3 of one persons pokemon with just one pokemon.

Alter Ego
June 1st, 2007, 03:43 AM
Wobbuffet can also Encore and then they will know EXACTLY what move the pokemon will use, and know how to counter/mirror coat it, you seemed to forget it, so can Wynaut, hence why he's on most UBER lists too. And then he can destiny bond if he's low on health, taking out 2-3 of one persons pokemon with just one pokemon.

Yeah, Wynaut is technically an uber, but in practice I think it's silly since it doesn't have enough HP (I mean 95 base, with 48 in the defenses too) to pull off more than one proper Counter or Mirror Coat. Should at least be shifted to OU, imo. Destiny Bond isn't generally used on Wobbuffet, though, since it's too slow to pull it off most of the time; people tend to prefer Safeguard for team support and protection against Toxic and similar moves. :3

Ichida
June 1st, 2007, 10:09 AM
My philosophy is that anyone who has to depend on legendaries to win battles is too unskilled to raise a competent team of non-legendaries, and thus not even worth thwomping. My team is apparently well-trained enough to take out even a team of hacked legendaries, though, as I have taken on a team or two of those. Damn Sacred Fire-using, non-Slow Starting Regigigas was irritating.

As for Wobbuffet, go right ahead. With the new P/S split, prediction gets somewhat harder. Besides, all I have to do is poison then out-wall it, or put it to sleep. Done. The irony of Wobbuffet is that everyone knows exactly what it's going to do.

~*!*~Tatsujin Gosuto~*!*~
June 2nd, 2007, 05:26 AM
I dont have anything against them really, but I just dont like legendaries anyways except Zapdos which is exceptable and Giratina which isn't


:t354:tatsujin gosuto

Rivvon
June 2nd, 2007, 04:07 PM
I have nothing against ubers, but I usually don't place them in my "main battle party" since I know they'll be banned in places like the Battle Tower and whatnot. But the reason I think that people ban ubers is not because they're mad that they get beat by them, but because they want...a "fair" fight, using average-stated Pokemon? It might not seem all that fair, limiting your choice of Pokemon, but it's probably what they think gives both teams an equal chance to win.

Kraka-chan
June 4th, 2007, 02:24 AM
Ah, I didn't notice that someone had also asked about Wobbuffet in this thread.

But I also notice that not all of the Legendaries (such as Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, etc) are Ubers. Are they not strong enough?

Cross
June 4th, 2007, 09:55 AM
I'm not against Ubers, I just don't use them competitively.
What's the point of using something that assures your win, or better yet, something that someone has an amazing counter too?

SBaby
June 6th, 2007, 07:29 PM
I'm assuming that Ubers are Legendary Pokemon.

Well, I think that's the problem with having a Lv. 100 cap in Pokemon. I remember the day when Pokemon fans used to love taking their Legendaries and going against another person with Legendaries. But all of a sudden, now people don't like them. And now it's getting to the point where people aren't liking other Pokemon too (e.g. Wobbuffet). Eventually, it'll get to where you can only use basic ground and beginner Pokemon in those battles.

Kind of stupid, eh? But that's the direction it's going.

Melody
June 6th, 2007, 10:06 PM
heh...I have to say that's what I fear as well...
People make a big deal out of an uber using trainer because he wins. If someone stomps you with ubers then roud up your ubers and take them on again...Stomp the living snot outta them...If you cant beat them in an Uber vs. Uber fight then they are more skilled than you are...
I dont see why people whine...a good trainer can take whatever comes their way...
The Tier system is nothing but a guide It tells you how strong a pokemon is naturally...It also tells you how much a pokemon is used in battle...
honestly I think there should be no limits....If you arent good enough to find a counter for that one opponent you cant beat then you arent good enough to beat them.

People fear losing...It's immature to cry "that wasnt fair!" because someone caught you off guard with an Uber team...
Another mistake people make is filling their party with all of their favorite pokemon....I know you may be attached to a certain pokemon but if It consistently get's it's butt whipped then consider boxing it when you are battling other people....

On Uber Legendaries...I dont know why people hate them...They are strong...If someone with a mewtwo come and whips my tail you can be sure that i'm gonna rematch them and whip the mewtwo's tail with a darkrai...

People sometimes forget that you cannot ever build a perfect team...
What makes me mad about the whole thing is when someone finds a fairly airtight strategy it gets banned as soon as it hits widestream use...
Dont ban what works!
IMO, if you cant handle losing without screaming for the other guy's team to be banned then you are a very very poor sportsman.
That is what's happening...

I'm assuming that Ubers are Legendary Pokemon.

Well, I think that's the problem with having a Lv. 100 cap in Pokemon. I remember the day when Pokemon fans used to love taking their Legendaries and going against another person with Legendaries. But all of a sudden, now people don't like them. And now it's getting to the point where people aren't liking other Pokemon too (e.g. Wobbuffet). Eventually, it'll get to where you can only use basic ground and beginner Pokemon in those battles.

Kind of stupid, eh? But that's the direction it's going.
BTW, You are assuming incorrectly...Not all legendaries are Ubers...See some of the previous posts on this page to clarify to yourself the meaning of Uber.

Diggeh
June 7th, 2007, 12:22 AM
Ubers are basically a way of trainers to whine and moan about their inability to defeat a level 100 legendary.

It's not that hard. Loads of the legends are Psychic types, so use a freaking Dark or Bug attack.

Megahorn says hi, Mewtwo.

kohei
June 7th, 2007, 12:33 AM
Ubers are basically a way of trainers to whine and moan about their inability to defeat a level 100 legendary.

It's not that hard. Loads of the legends are Psychic types, so use a freaking Dark or Bug attack.

Megahorn says hi, Mewtwo.
I love Scizor for this reason.

Alter Ego
June 7th, 2007, 03:21 AM
Ubers are basically a way of trainers to whine and moan about their inability to defeat a level 100 legendary.

It's not that hard. Loads of the legends are Psychic types, so use a freaking Dark or Bug attack.

Megahorn says hi, Mewtwo.

Not really, seeing as how Mewtwo can outspeed a Heracross and OHKO it with Psychic, same for the latis, while Lugia will just sit there and laugh at your Megahorn (Usually from behind the protection of Reflect) before getting rid of the damage with Recover. Also, most ubers can simply pressure stall your PP away with recovery moves or substitute. The notion of a super effective hit equaling a win makes me laugh, really does. The fact that you mentioned legendaries in your first post is a pretty clear sign that A) you don't know what ubers are, and B) you haven't read most of the posts here explaining that, so I won't bother with picking on this argument further. Read before you post, please.

Poketrainer2004's faulty assumption of brute power-mashing being the same as good strategy also makes me very sad. Don't ban what works my arse, if this was about some kind of strategic combination like Skarmbliss then I would agree with you, but imo every player has the right to play within whatever tier they damn well please. If they don't want to play ubers (or against them) then they are entitled to their choice; you demanding them to change their mind is about as justified as me demanding you to face my whole-OU team using a team made of only Unown and Magikarp. I for one know how to counter ubers, but that doesn't mean that I like facing the endless waves of clueless ubershippers out there. It's not a matter of skill; it's a matter of choice, I've chosen to aim for tiers where there are more competent players (ones who aren't so estranged from the concept of strategy that they'd need to hind behind over-the-top statlines to win <.<) and thus more interesting games. Ubers are generally detrimental for developing skills at the game because they require so little of it themselves. If I find someone who does know how to play well (Despite using ubers) then I could respect that, but people who clearly don't have a clue (Solarbeam Groudon and whatnot) just feel like a waste of time. I've even run into people on Netbattle sporting the 'no ubers' thing right above the big red lable on their team that says '6 ubers'. That's not about wanting to play your favourites anymore; it's consciously seeking an unfair advantage over the opponent.

Oh, and on SBaby's point: I see where you're getting at, but the 'no limitations' approach, on the other hand, is encroaching on the rights of every pokémon in the NU, BL, and UU tiers as they - in the presence of ubers - will become unplayable for practical reasons. Is it any more fair, then, to deny the fans of all these pokémon (who are already out of the spotlight because of the merchandisers' tendency to favour ubers and legendaries (Which, I must point out, still aren't the same thing)) the right to proudly play their favourites and actually have a chance of winning with them? You also seem to be under the peculiar impression that these tiers are set up through some normative process of 'liking'. That, with all due respect, is absolute nonsense. Once more: the tiers are pirmarily set up based on the comparative power levels of the pokémon for reasons I've repeated many times already and won't repeat again. The popularity aspect is secondary. :\

I really don't see why people can't just accept the tiers and stick to them. If there are, as has been claimed, lots of people who want to play ubers then I don't see why those people don't just get together and do that instead of whining about how unfair it is that other people don't feel like battling a team setup of Arceus/Mewtwo/Kyogre etc. This is a game, people, and others have the right to decide whether they want to play with you or not.

SBaby
June 7th, 2007, 10:42 AM
Oh, and on SBaby's point: I see where you're getting at, but the 'no limitations' approach, on the other hand, is encroaching on the rights of every pokémon in the NU, BL, and UU tiers as they - in the presence of ubers - will become unplayable for practical reasons. Is it any more fair, then, to deny the fans of all these pokémon (who are already out of the spotlight because of the merchandisers' tendency to favour ubers and legendaries (Which, I must point out, still aren't the same thing)) the right to proudly play their favourites and actually have a chance of winning with them? You also seem to be under the peculiar impression that these tiers are set up through some normative process of 'liking'. That, with all due respect, is absolute nonsense. Once more: the tiers are pirmarily set up based on the comparative power levels of the pokémon for reasons I've repeated many times already and won't repeat again. The popularity aspect is secondary. :\


All right! That's like the third time the site's bugged out on me. Let's try posting this again.

Not really through a process of 'liking', but more like the, 'Oh, I can't win against that Pokemon, so it's banned from my game'. That seems to be the trend. And if it keeps up, like I said, it'll get to the point where only very basic Pokemon are even allowed anymore. You watch. It'll happen. Because somewhere down the line, someone will find issues with the currently allowed Pokemon.

But I do tell you that removing the level cap in Pokemon games would definitely solve alot of issues facing them (and I was talking about the games there, not the on-line battling thing).

Things like this are why I started PD-20 in the first place. I was just so sick of all the whining about ubers. Changing the battle system in the process to help balance the game was just a perk.

Diggeh
June 7th, 2007, 04:28 PM
Not really, seeing as how Mewtwo can outspeed a Heracross and OHKO it with Psychic, same for the latis, while Lugia will just sit there and laugh at your Megahorn (Usually from behind the protection of Reflect) before getting rid of the damage with Recover. Also, most ubers can simply pressure stall your PP away with recovery moves or substitute. The notion of a super effective hit equaling a win makes me laugh, really does. The fact that you mentioned legendaries in your first post is a pretty clear sign that A) you don't know what ubers are, and B) you haven't read most of the posts here explaining that, so I won't bother with picking on this argument further. Read before you post, please.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that only Heracross learns Megahorn. Forgive me for failing to mention the minority of the ubers list, such as Salamance, Metagross, and Garchomp because as I recall, legendaries are a majority on every uber list.,which must have misled you into believing I'm not informed on how ubers work and which Pokemon are ubers.

Also, I fail to see how mentioning legendaries in an uber topic is considered a sign that I have no form of intelligence on forum posting and Pokemon mechanics.

This really isn't worth arguing over, so please don't instantly judge a person's intelligence by his post count. I know perfectly well on what ubers are and how they work, so there's no need to act like legendaries with Substitute/Recover/Reflect/etc cannot be beaten. Besides, who in their right mind would Megahorn a Lugia?

~Diggeh

Alter Ego
June 8th, 2007, 07:08 AM
All right! That's like the third time the site's bugged out on me. Let's try posting this again.

Not really through a process of 'liking', but more like the, 'Oh, I can't win against that Pokemon, so it's banned from my game'. That seems to be the trend. And if it keeps up, like I said, it'll get to the point where only very basic Pokemon are even allowed anymore. You watch. It'll happen. Because somewhere down the line, someone will find issues with the currently allowed Pokemon.

But I do tell you that removing the level cap in Pokemon games would definitely solve alot of issues facing them (and I was talking about the games there, not the on-line battling thing).

Things like this are why I started PD-20 in the first place. I was just so sick of all the whining about ubers. Changing the battle system in the process to help balance the game was just a perk.

Ahh...now I see what you're getting at. However, the practice you're referring to is a bit different from the tiers. Slapping a ban on anything that beats you is commonly known as 'N00Bclausing' and is actually not endorsed by the majority of competitive players. The shifts in the tiers, on the other hand, are mostly back and forths between UU, BL, and OU, and I'd like to note that no pokémon have been added to or removed from the uber tier since the new generation came around. The smaller shifts usually occur when a pokémon either becomes largely unused because of a shift in team building trends (Meaning that it is no longer as large a threat to others as before and can thus be allowed on lower tiers) or, conversely, when a single species starts dominating its own tier and gets moved up, as was the case with Jumpluff. In the context of ubers, the tier is practically set in stone as the ones in it are there by obvious merits, and for the rest...I'm sorry, but I can't really take your doomsday prophecy of everything but basic forms being banned seriously. Like I said; the shifts in tiers are generally back and forth and no pokémon has been moved more than one tier up or down from its original. The notion of Ivysaur becoming an uber is, I'm sorry to say, downright ridiculous. I personally don't know about the console-based online battling, but that place seems far more chaotic than NB so I seriously doubt it.

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot that only Heracross learns Megahorn. Forgive me for failing to mention the minority of the ubers list, such as Salamance, Metagross, and Garchomp because as I recall, legendaries are a majority on every uber list.,which must have misled you into believing I'm not informed on how ubers work and which Pokemon are ubers.

Also, I fail to see how mentioning legendaries in an uber topic is considered a sign that I have no form of intelligence on forum posting and Pokemon mechanics.

This really isn't worth arguing over, so please don't instantly judge a person's intelligence by his post count. I know perfectly well on what ubers are and how they work, so there's no need to act like legendaries with Substitute/Recover/Reflect/etc cannot be beaten. Besides, who in their right mind would Megahorn a Lugia?

~Diggeh

How ironic...first you say that this isn't worth arguing over then you argue over this. The first of two internal contradictions that I see in this post.

First: I said absolutely nothing about anyone's intelligence in my post. I have no idea where you picked that up from but even after re-reading I can't find it. Would you care to point that part out for me, please? If not then maybe you're the one who needs to stop assuming things.

Second: I don't give a damn about post counts and I haven't even looked at yours. Again, this is a completely baseless assumption for which I can't find any support in my post.

Third: Salamence, Garchomp, and Metagross are all OUs; not ubers (See my earlier post for a list of the pokémon in the uber tier), so you'll have to forgive me if I remain 'misled' into believeing that you aren't quite aware of what does and doesn't fall into the tier. Heracross is just about the only Megahorner who would even have a fair shot at hurting ubers on account of its high Attack and STAB. Rhyperior comes close because of its Solid Rock trait, but it doesn't have the SDef for the job, unless you're willing to invest so many EVs in it that it won't manage a KO.

Finally, to answer your question: no-one in their right mind would use Megahorn on a Lugia, but you claimed that Megahorn would solve the problem of the psychic legendaries (To which Lugia belongs). That just isn't true, plain and simple. I'm not claiming that the ubers are invincible; I'm just saying that in a game between two players of comparable skill, an uber will usually drag down at least two to three OUs with it through brute force and endurance, which isn't a fair fight. Even when you do manage to KO them the 'Pressure' trait posessed by the vast majority of ubers will have sapped out a lot of your PP. This disbalance can not be erased by simply slapping on a super effective move like you claim.