Conversation Between machomuu and Banjora Marxvile
Showing Visitor Messages 1 to 15 of 28
July 29th, 2012 10:12 AMBanjora MarxvileIt was a tad
Exactly my point, psychologically we overrate and underrate all the time, including in things we know nothing about.
The key is to read the key parts mostly. Skip the words that can be ignored (like the) and pick up the key points of the argument (like making flashcards for a speech)
July 29th, 2012 10:09 AMmachomuuOh, that was on purpose, it was simply using an example as a definition. It was a poor choice of words, though.
I also agree about the categories, definitely true, it can be overrated/underrated by either critics or consumers (or both).
But I agree, I enjoyed this debate, too. But dang, you do read and write fast. My post definitely wasn't small, considering all the factors...geez. You're making me jealous.
July 29th, 2012 10:03 AMBanjora MarxvileQuote from you on the only point of your last message I feel I can argue about:
"Underrated implies that people feel that "a game is bad" and that the one who's..." Exactly the opposite that you said that you never said people thought a game was bad. Quote was from a few messages down.
Other than that, I now agree. To be fair, I class overlooked games as underrated because people rate them low enough to ignore. That's just how my brain works. To clarify, we have just had a great discussion that has done nothing at all, but allowed me to appreciate your view of underratedness...
In essence... Yeah, I don't know how to phrase this without sounding like I was wrong, but... Yeah... I actually agree with you more now (but I still hold a belief that underrated games can fall into different categories - by critics and consumers. Most overlooked are underrated by consumers to me.) (and by the way, I'm quite quick at typing and reading. But yeah, fair assumption)
In all... I enjoyed this debate, and... I may have been wrong in some aspects...
July 29th, 2012 09:54 AMmachomuuOf course it does, the core gamer is swayed by "what's popular and what's not", and that also plays into what they think about the games, but I can't say that every game that is overlooked is underrated. Similarly, I'd agree that overlooked games can be overrated, because they still have a fanbase, even if the game itself is crappy, that much is true.
And yes, something can be overrated compared to something else, but I, like many others, don't use comparisons to determine if a game is good or not. I determine it by how good I think it is as game by itself. You don't need another game to determine if a game is overrated/underrated, you just need to have a good idea of what you consider is a good game (sure, that "idea" is formed from playing other games, but you're not comparing the games themselves, instead you're comparing the games' concepts, features, and what you take from the games subconsciously collectively to form your opinion on gaming as a whole, rather than seeing what the game does right relative to other games individually). You don't need to compare it to other games (though some people only do that), you just need the experience to determine what you personally believe makes a good game. Sure, I could say that one game is rated high and another game deserves that rating when the former game doesn't, but that doesn't determine which game is overrated and which is underrated; it can't, because the person who was thinking that was comparing two games, one they considered overrated and one they considered underrated, they decided that before they made the comparison. They decided that one game deserved a lower rating and one that deserved a higher rating first, then compared the two, nothing more than that. It's simply a comparison, not a determination which one is overrated or underrated (unless one person forms opinions through comparisons, in which case it is a determination). It really all depends on the person and how they form an opinion on something. (which is why I have a love-hate relationship with the subjective world we live in).
Quote:uderrated doesn't necessarily mean that people feel it is bad, but not as good as other things which some people feel is inaccurate.
Also, there was a 4 minute gap, but I didn't think you'd start reading it the moment I posted it, and then post a rather wholesome post yourself in that time, that would be a rather extreme prediction that I definitely wasn't ready to make.
One last thing. I don't think that it's really fair to say that something is underrated or overlooked if someone forms an opinion about something yet don't make it publicly known. I see what you're saying, people do indeed form an opinion about something when they decide to look it over, even if it's not their final or full opinion about the item in question, but I don't think it's really the right thing to count those that have not publicly voiced that opinion. I don't really think I can say what my opinion about this is because, really, I've never even thought about it, what I'm saying now is on the spot, so I don't really think I can back it up or reinforce it (it requires more pondering on my part, though I am grateful that you've raised this theory, it's something to think about).
July 29th, 2012 09:16 AMBanjora Marxvile... Actually, uderrated doesn't necessarily mean that people feel it is bad, but not as good as other things which some people feel is inaccurate. A game can earn average results and still be underrated, or even relatively good results in terms of review, and still be underrated in theory if there is nothing wrong with it. Underrated also needs something that is rated higher than it that people feel isn't so good, or is mainstream. E.G a game like Portal is underrated compared to more popular series like Pokemon.
By the way, I did read your message (there was a 4 minute gap between your response and mine, implying an adequate amount of time to read your message, thanks), there were some bits that I disagreed about purely because underrated is an opinion. I find some underrated games "overrated" because they are that awful, but have a cult following that I do not understand could support such a bad game. It's all about how you argue it, hence why your argument is valid.
I'm just saying, I believe that the overlooked are underrated, not deliberately, but indirectly as people look over them for other stuff that is more to their tastes. I'm not necessarily saying that they may like the game, but they aren't even willing to rate it by trying it (or watching people play it on the internet). In that sense, it is a psychological thing to rate things, and both underrate and overrate.
I will admit one thing though, I do believe what you are saying more and more, but I also believe that overlooking something does play it's part in how a game is rated.
July 29th, 2012 09:06 AMmachomuuQuote:Underrated implies that people feel that "a game is bad" and that the one who's perspective it is coming from implies that it "deserves better". There's no real gray area there, it's a pretty defined definitively defined word in the sense, though it's completely based on subjectivity.Quote:"Underrated", as I said, has little gray area since it explains itself in two words that make up the compound word "underrated". It has nothing to do with popularity, but a game can be underrated because it's overlooked, and someone can rate a game low because it's overlooked, but overlooked games don't have to be underrated, because you have to look further into the reason that they're overlooked.
Though the speed of your response to my second to last response (and the subject matter of the response that I'm responding to now) has me wondering, did you actually read all of what I said 20 minutes ago?
July 29th, 2012 08:59 AMBanjora MarxvileYou never said it had a gray area. You treat it as if it is only those that arejudged less than they deserve, what gray area did you describe?
July 29th, 2012 08:51 AMmachomuuSo you are calling Pavlov. I still hold that "underrated" has little gray area, but since you say "no", like it's fact, it's pretty much the same as calling Pavlov, which I can't combat.
Pavlov is law, after all.
July 29th, 2012 08:49 AMBanjora MarxvileActually, no. It depends what you really class underrated as. If people don't even give the time for a game, for any reason, even if it is by accident, it is underrated because it didn't stand out for them. And actually, my argument is alongside exactly what you define underrated is. I class it as the games that have been forgotten or not as highly ranked as I feel they should have been. THIS includes the overlooked games as they didn't even get noticed, and then have faded without being rated as highly as I would have liked. Your argument is equally as valid if you define it as those that got a mark that you feel they didn't deserve.
It all depends on what you class the meaning of underrated. It's like the word normal - what do you class as normal, as nothing is the same, so is anything truly normal?
July 29th, 2012 08:45 AMmachomuuUnderrated implies that people feel that "a game is bad" and that the one who's perspective it is coming from implies that it "deserves better". There's no real gray area there, it's a pretty defined definitively defined word in the sense, though it's completely based on subjectivity.
It is, after all, in the name "underrated", it's pretty self explanatory in that sense. You could call "Pavlov" and then I'd be forced to stop right there, because Pavlov is law.
Granted, overlooking is completely based on neutrality (though it doesn't always have to. Let's say some person goes to the gamestore looking for nothing in particular. Any game that they don't by, but considered at least a little, is "overlooked" in a more literal sense. Similarly, if a game isn't well known, but is good, would be considered overlooked in the sense that we are talking about. Generally Overlooked and Underrated can be synonymous because the latter generally doesn't get much fanfare, and thus it leads to less demand, leading to the former, which is how the confusion of "overlooked" and "underrated" most likely came about. Just because someone overlooks a game doesn't mean they don't like it, it just means that, from what they've seen (or from the little that they've played) they don't want to play it (more). At the same time, they can't have built a full opinion of the game, because that would spill into judgment, and that would spill into "overrated/underrated" subject matter.
"Games that people rate low or don't even give the chance because of the popularity of overlooked games" isn't completely what "underrated" is (that's more like "underrating"), that's called being shallow, or consumer/producer pressure in this case. Yeah, it's underrated, but it's also unjustifiable and just doing it because people say it's bad or don't know too much about it...that's pretty much called being shallow, lazy, or cracking under consumer/producer pressure, but that would definitely be included in my definition. Or it could be considered being a dick. "Underrated", as I said, has little gray area since it explains itself in two words that make up the compound word "underrated". It has nothing to do with popularity, but a game can be underrated because it's overlooked, and someone can rate a game low because it's overlooked, but overlooked games don't have to be underrated, because you have to look further into the reason that they're overlooked. Maybe they just had crappy advertising. Maybe they have crappy box art. Maybe the game looks boring through videos. Maybe it has a crappy name or an unjustifyably bad demo. That type of stuff turns people away, but they're not saying the game is crap because of that stuff, they're just not willing to go any further into the experience. Because of their neutrality on the game itself, it wouldn't be overrated or underrated, it would simply be overlooked (unless the people who did play the game thought it was better/worse than it actually was, then it could be both). One can exist without the other.
July 29th, 2012 07:56 AMBanjora MarxvileOverlooking doesn't really mean it is in a neutrality area, it's in an area that is undefined. Underrated games tend to be overlooked because people rate other games higher when they perhaps shouldn't, hence why they are underrated to some. It all depends on what you mean by underrated. You mean it to be "a game that is rated worse than it may actually be" (or words to that effect). I class underrated as "games that people rate low or don't even give the chance because of the popularity of overlooked games" or words to that effect.
What I'm trying to say is that Overlooked games are underrated because people don't know of them. They lack the popularity and may be ranked highly by some gamers, but are underrated by consumers in favour of some other game that may be overrated (or at least not as good but just massively popular)
July 29th, 2012 07:50 AMmachomuuBut they're not saying the game is bad, it would be considered overlooked because of their neutral input on the subject matter, and that neutrality doesn't really into underrated or overrated.
For instance, I'll use two passions of mine as an example. Phoenix Wright is underrated because it's a Text Based Point and Click Adventure Game, and people dump on it because "it's boring", despite the fact that they've barely played it or haven't played it at all. They acknowledge its existence and still dump on it because it's not "super actiony".
The Touhou Project, on the other hand, is a game that people praise for its gameplay and even more for its music, but there still aren't really that many people that know of its existence, and therefore, it's overlooked.
July 29th, 2012 07:44 AMBanjora MarxvileThat still plays into what I meant. I never said that underrated games are overlooked, more the other way around. Overlooked games are underrated because no one gave them a chance.
July 29th, 2012 07:29 AMmachomuuWell, if they ignore them on purpose then I would say that it wouldn't be overlooked; but then again, "ignoring" something can be unintentional, for instance someone might not play something because it didn't look appealing or they didn't know about it, and that would fall into "overlooking".
July 29th, 2012 07:26 AMBanjora MarxvileMay I just say that technically overlooked games are underrated as they do not get the praise they deserve as people ignore them?
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