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Hassan_Abdillah Hassan_Abdillah is offline

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Showing Visitor Messages 51 to 60 of 112
  1. Soari
    February 19th, 2011 07:50 PM
    Soari
    Hiii~ I lingered over your post in "What's your religion?" thread and I find your opinions really thought provoking and intriguing regarding Islam. :) Do you study religion?
  2. Rai
    February 19th, 2011 12:24 PM
    Rai
    Why hello :3

    And I'm not really sure why I find religion so interesting. I think it's because there are so many different variations and everyone has their own opinion of it. Everyone I talk to about comes up with something I never considered before.
  3. Feign
    February 19th, 2011 11:46 AM
    Feign
    I'd say that Deism is mostly an individualistic belief, but that the tenants remain for groundwork for those who want to believe in it. I'll put the questions individually to make it easier on myself and probably you too, haha.

    where is your intellectual security coming from?
    It comes from the fact I know there are things that can and cannot be answered. I know this seems paradoxical but I honestly don't mind that some things cannot be answered. And yet I do not fear death. One thing I did forget to mention in terms of Deism is that one of the main tenants dictates that humanity is generally moral. Aside from that, my security comes from the fact that I know I won't be judged, and am only one in many. Hummm a bit hard to explain I suppose, sorry about that.

    explain to me why do you think your belief is the most consistent/logical/plausible

    Occam's Razor to put it simply. As an example if a clueless man was presented with the Bible's two creation stories, as well as strong evidence towards evolution, the choice with the most evidence might be more likely chosen. As well, it was only mortal men (that I believe) who wrote the Bible. It might say that it has God's words in it and such, but I'd much rather have my own revelation of God to know the truth.

    I think when I initially had these beliefs, I did not know that Deism existed, and now it sort of caters to it. It is quite subjective, but I don't feel any more wrong in believing it, seeing as there are quite a few religions about.

    As for the difficult in offense comment, I think I did not clarify it well enough. It's not that I am not open to world views, but rather, that if someone were to offend me by any means, that I wouldn't be offended. And while my views may have started off as desirable, I'd say they have moved to most sensible. Thus independent of offense, as I cannot be easily suaded.

    As for the rejecting of scriptures, I don't mean it in a rude or ignorant way. Instead I'd have more of the belief that people should write their own scripture (so to speak), just for themselves. I mean they physcially don't have to, but that to at least gain their findings on their own instead. Pretty much like a religious journey. THen with knowledge perhaps a scripture can be accepted, and so forth.

    It's a bit of the reason why I don't like seeing children at a very young age being involved in religious activities. Now I can understand that their parent would want it to happen, but I like the idea of a parent who lets their child have free will and allows them to believe what they want to. Even if it comes into conflict. The whole love thing however, would remain the same.

    And since we're more talking than debating, I think, I enjoy it much more as there is no insincerity to our intentions of merely coming to a pass, and understanding each other's beliefs.
  4. Feign
    February 18th, 2011 12:25 PM
    Feign
    Yep I understand that a philosophical discussion (even on religion) is still vastly interesting. I like to hear other people's believes, even if the reasoning isn't fully explained, as I endeavour to not be ignorant. XD Thus, I know you are not trying to convert, but rather explicate. Though my own beliefs have been fine-tuned so my beliefs are diamond solid (seeing as rock can be chipped XD). It's not to say I'm ignorant in and of itself, or stubborn, but rather I have just come to conclusions on religious matters that makes the most logical sense to me.

    In terms of rejecting scriptures in a general sense (that you had mentioned), it's not done out of ignorance, I mean Deists can still appreciate portions of the bible or other relevant teachings in other scriptures, but rather it's done only by experience. Like I know that touching a rock means that it is hard, that sort of learning experience registers and stays with me. A 'learn as you go' so to speak. As though creating a new scripture for one's self (if that makes any sense). I believe this is what those who believe in Wicca do. Though they use an actual physical book, I was merely speaking empirically.

    I suppose where our viewpoints converge most is that I do not believe in the "justice" portion of God. And with that premise, I do not see a purpose in hell, thus I don't believe it to be an emotional response (however I cannot necessarily delve into my subconscious, haha).

    Of the issue about God and hell, I can't exactly remember what the Bible comments on that. Like if Satan created it or what have you. I'm sure there are plenty of debates over that too, such as how hell was created, who created it, why does god allow it, etc. Some of those questions can of course be more easily answered than others. It's not really important to me however.

    Another idea I have encountered is when a person goes to the afterlife, I have the belief that a sort of revelation is made. That revelation in a sense answers all questions. Like if a murderer were to die and receive this sort of revelation, he might see what his murder has done. My thoughts this are more muddled mind you, but it is in absence of personality, and emotion that this is realised. Like the lack of an individual. That's why I mention the source. That it is like everything and nothing. I kind of picture it as a big ball of light (not the sun mind you) where everything (physical and non physical) comes and goes. That being said, the only thing I am really unsure of then is reincarnation (imagine that. XD). I realise the Abrahamic religions probably don't believe in that, but even myself, it's hard to understand individuality and what it exactly means. Of course I realise then that there are some things that is beyond human understanding (just trying understanding the theory of relativity or 4 dimensions, is crazy enough), but like I said before, I am not discomfitted by this fact, as per my belief that God is love, and we are mortal for the experience so to speak. (Sounds like I just came full circle, hopefully what I have said makes sense).

    I hope I covered everything. I wish I could have more linear thoughts at times, but it is not always the case. And just to say, it is extremely difficult to offend me, so you don't have to be concerned if you're being confrontational or not. As sometimes a person might try to get a point across, only to have it misunderstood or something. I am maybe too open minded for my own good, haha.
  5. Feign
    February 17th, 2011 08:36 AM
    Feign
    You can make your response as long as possible. If you had questions about Deism that's fine too.

    I think the thing I did forget to mention, which you briefly did, was that despite things being fated, and going to hell, humans don't know that their history was predetermined (per se), as you mention in you reverse history example. It might be foolish to say this, but I'd still think it unfair, even if I wasn't sure my life was fated. So a foolish flaw, I suppose. XD

    I suppose my objection of hell was mostly from the other comment of mine anyway (that Satan turned from God etc). As even though I believe God to be more of a watcher, I too believe God is love incarnate. A person who commits murder would still find themselves in the same place where everyone else is (again not the Asphodal type example but the one about the "source" I mention), and receives the same sort of "revelation" of understanding.

    I suppose, to put it simply, I don't believe life to be a test, but rather an experience. I do not fear death, I think it is silly to fear something that is inevitable. I would go as far to say that death is as beautiful as life, however perhaps some theists and atheists would disagree with me (albeit it is probably rare for a non-Theistic person to say that).

    Also one of the main tenants of Deism is to refute any religious scripture, because it does not hold the truth per se in terms of a belief in a God. I suppose a lot of people had the Abrahamic religion as their own religion before changing over to Deism, so perhaps the monotheistic God they think of may be the same in both situations.

    Apparently though, Thomas Paine is an excellent read for those who are interested in Deism, I haven't read his works yet though. Not that I really need to. XD

    Yeah, I'd agree that it is both nature and nurture, as I make a simple comparison to heterosexualness too. It seems when people make the ideology of "being gay" they sometimes can forget the sameness of heterosexuality too. It's like putting a gay man in a world with only women or a straight man in a world of gay women sort of thing.

    Hmmm I think those were the only points I wanted to bring up. XD

    I'm off to work soon, so take your time.

    On a side note, I very much like the idea of a non-revealed religion (which may seem odd), it's that sense of mystery that seemingly can only be discovered through science. While of course it might be impossible to find succinct evidence of God (aside from nature itself), it is still fascinating the discoveries that are made to this day. The only two non-revealed religions I can think of is Deism and Buddhism.

    EDIT: One thing I do appreciate most about Islam though is that is hardly has gone through any translations. Compared to the Bible, I can appreciate that it may contain more "truth" (if I were so bold so say).
  6. Regeneration
    February 17th, 2011 05:14 AM
    Regeneration
    ESPN.. oh! Ever wonder I wasn't able to find it anywhere. XD
  7. Regeneration
    February 17th, 2011 05:08 AM
    Regeneration
    Opening ceremony!?!! Where? where? Where?
    *turns on the TV*
  8. Feign
    February 16th, 2011 11:51 PM
    Feign
    Hmm seemingly like a proposition, interesting. XD

    Well to begin, I wouldn't say that Deism was a faith or religion, or dogma, but rather a belief. I will explain why there is no real adherence too. (I'd also like to point out that it has been a while since I have read the Bible, so I hope I don't misconstrue anything).

    I'd say it could have started at around the age of 16, I went to a catholic school, but my family and I were never practicing Christians. I had already read the bible (of my own accord). What really set off the questions though were the inconsistencies with various passages in the bible. Plus after reading various books in philosophy, I questioned fate and hell. That is to say, if fate existed, then hell would only serve as a tool for something God had purposely created, which would seem odd. Not only this but the fact that it says in the Bible that Satan turned his back from God (not literally of course but more figuratively). I think this is extremely impossible... No matter how evil a person is, I believe God will always be there. And if it was meant in the context that Satan disregarded God's teachings or what have you, then I'll explain that later with another subset of my beliefs. XD

    Yeah, to put it bluntly, I enjoy the company of the same sex. The bible says this is bad (though to be fair this was not the reason why I no longer believed in Catholicism. Deism took hold of me a year earlier I believe). That being said there was that reason, but also the erroneous statements, as I believe I recall, within the same book, wherein it says that a man should not lay with a man, it also says that wear two kinds of fabric is also a sin. This picking and choosing of scriptures by people today seems to me to be out of convenience and personal vendettas. Again these two reasons was not my main reason to convert. It was more the paradox of the hell/fate thing mentioned earlier.

    I realise it would be simple enough for someone to believe in on or the other, but then it got me thinking. I do sort of believe in a kind of Heaven, yet I would call it more like a "source". (I'd also like to mention that all Deists have differentiating beliefs, but they do have all of the same main tennants). I don't like thinking too much of it though, because I am unsure on exactly what happens, but it would perhaps be something similar to the phenomenon seen in the Golden Compass trilogy after the main characters freed the spirits from the Ashphodal-like fields. That is to say people returned to the Earth by way of a sort of energy.

    Many people would think that Deists are insecure (because they don't really care about the need for salvation), but this is untrue. A Deist is comfitted by logic. It's almost similar to an Atheist actually. I know one day that I will die, and that some form of God or creator or something in that regard that I cannot explain now will take place. Because I believe everyone is energy (so to speak), it essentially implies that hell is truly unneeded.

    That being said, the kind of God I see existing is one that sits back and watches his/her creations. This explains the scientific/logical aspect of a Deist's mind.

    I don't believe someone can be born with a faith. Only a parent or other can teach the person, and while a child is not the best to teach a religion too (loss of interest perhaps, etc), it can at least open doors to openess of religions.

    Anywho, I hope that all made sense. I tend to ramble on, but I won't really edit the above as it probably is all pertinent.

    On a side note though, I remember having a sort of discussion with another member a while ago who I think was a Fundamentalist Christian who had gone to the Iraqi war. It wasn't argumentative, but I did ask a lot of questions, because I was more astounded by his beliefs. I realise it is 'to each their own', but he explained that his actions were justified because he (as a believer in Christ and God) was doing God's job of eradicating terrorists. Not only that but he had mentioned that those who did not believe in his religion would be going to hell. Then I brought up the innocent people, such as children not aware completely what his religion meant, and an isolated tribe who has not had contact with the world. He had said that they would all be going to hell. This was quite disconcerting.

    Ramble complete. :3
  9. Feign
    February 16th, 2011 07:13 AM
    Feign
    Haha thanks. Yeah I saw your post in the religious thread. I know a bunch of Muslims from Indonesia and they all had various differences in their own devotion.

    You could say I've also had my own religious journey. Starting out as a catholic and now I've migrated to something that suits my beliefs. It wasn't really that I had a negative experience but that it just sort of donned on me that my beliefs that I have now, would make a lot of sense, even if they weren't the prettiest, so to speak.
  10. Regeneration
    February 16th, 2011 06:27 AM
    Regeneration
    I agree. I can sense that our convo might become a battlefield instead!

About Me

  • About Hassan_Abdillah
    Biography
    I would've appreciated it more if you actually asked me straight up to tell you about myself rather than being a stalker.

    Meh, I take that back. I'm a stalker myself at times.

    So about myself you ask? Well I'm Hassan, Hassan Abdillah. That roughly translates as "Hassan the slave of God". I'm a passionate Muslim, and a passionate debater. And a passionate (budding) scientist. And a passionate writer. And a passionate lots of other things. I'm a man of varied interests. But my primary interest is religion. I take the issue of "purpose" very seriously.

    Just to write a few words about how I contrast my views against the "prevalent" trend:

    I am aware that the dominant theme in today's net-lectual culture is, for the most part, agnosticism. Every so often we hear people saying things like all religions are flawed (on the basis of, of course, the fallacy of sweeping generalization. Just because the religion you claim to know about appears flawed to you, doesn't mean all religions have to follow suit) or that this universe has no objective purpose (this is what we call a "claim to knowledge", and a claim to knowledge needs to be backed up by evidence), and so on. On the face of it, it seems like individuals these days are rejecting the notion of religion(s) on the basis of valid intellectual arguments. But I contend that this is far from the truth. Once you scratch this superficial surface and go a bit deeper, you would almost always find that behind these reasons, there are actually emotions, which guide and motivate the formation of such (apparently) intellectual justifications. Examples would include fear of consequences (i.e. what if this religion thing were true? I better not think about it. Meh all religions are stupid), apathy (I have no idea why, but it's actually considered "cool" these days to display apathy towards the major problems of life), laziness, arrogance and so on. This is of no surprise really. The human mind is 5% ration and 95% emotion, as Freud showed.

    Will Durant illustrates my thoughts beautifully in the following words:

    "Philosophy begins when one learns to doubt- particularly to doubt one's cherished beliefs, one's dogmas, and one's axioms. Who knows how these beliefs became certainties with us, and whether some secret wish did not furtively beget them, clothing desire in the dress of thought? There is no real philosophy until the mind turns around and questions itself. "Gnothi Seauton"- said Socrates, know thyself."

    As regards the negative generalizations against religious beliefs, I, on rational grounds, find them to be unfair. Going into much detail on this topic is not my intention, at least not here. But don't mind if I drag Bertrand Russel in here to share a quote which sums up the thoughts on the top of my head about this:

    "It would be perfectly possible to be a complete and absolute Rationalist in the true sense of the term and yet accept this or that dogma. The question is how to arrive at your opinions and not what your opinions are. The thing in which we believe is the supremacy of reason. If reason should lead you to orthodox conclusions, well and good; you are still a Rationalist."

    So yeah, I think I would stop here. But for any further information/discussion/whatever, you are more than welcome to knock me any way you want, with the exception of the particularly painful ones.
    Interests
    The Religion of Islaam
    Theology
    Philosophy
    Polemics
    Science (especially Biology)
    Pokemon (games, not anime or manga)
    Poetry
    Humor
    Cooking

    Meh that would be it.
    Location
    South Asia, but then again a wayfarer is not very earthbound
    Gender
    Male ♂
    Occupation
    Student, Microbiology
    Nature
    Docile
    Favorite Pokémon
    Gardevoir (simply the best)
    Flygon

    These two are basically my most favorite pokemon, there are others but none of them could be given the title of my "most" favorite ones.
  • Signature
    Asked the Liberal: "What vanity prevents you from adopting Liberal values?"
    I said: "What Liberal value isn't based on vanity?"

    Asked the Conservative (Republican): “Why don’t you assimilate into our culture?”
    I said: “Because your culture demands assimilation”.

    Said the Democrat: “The majority must rule.”
    I said: “But what will rule the majority?”

    Said the Neo-Conservative: “I believe we are the superior Civilization”.
    I said: “That's what makes you an inferior Civilization”.

    Said the Pragmatist: "Always choose the lesser of two evils".
    I said: "Then your choices will always be evil".

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