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February 10th, 2011 (05:50 AM).
Strong, Competitive, Cool!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Just in the UK
Quote originally posted by
MeerFall, when you post your work on a writing forum, you're asking for feedback by default. Otherwise, you have no reason of posting on a forum because you really don't want to hear honest opinions from everyone.
Additionally, as I've said in the very first paragraph of my review, newbies need help. I recognize he's a newbie, but we
hold a newbie's hand and say that everything they do is stellar. Sure, we can't be bags of snark, but concrit is
for their development because it shows them what areas they should focus on if they want to get better. If no one tells them what they can work on, then there's no way they'll be able to learn for themselves. It's like knowing how to ride a bike and watching someone who doesn't know without saying a word. It's meaner just sitting back, watching them fall over repeatedly, and saying nothing but "you're doing a great job," than it is to actually go over to them, help them up, and show them the best ways to keep their balance.
Just telling them they're doing a great job if you can see where they can improve is patronizing to them -- which means it makes them feel like you think they're stupid. Telling them as objectively as possible that their work isn't bad but that they could make it better if they kept certain things in mind tells them that you think they're intelligent and capable enough to improve. And that's something I really do feel, if I may say so right here, that a lot of people in the poetry forum need to learn because there's an abundance of vague reviews that either say a poet can do no wrong or don't go into detail about what could be improved, and that's not really helping anyone. You guys want to become better poets? It's the same route as learning how to become better writers or better anything. You learn how to take and grow from concrit because there's a lot of people out there on the internet or even in publishing in general who won't give you the courtesy of a negative review that's aimed to teach you something.
Curiosity speaking here. Not trying to flame you or anything. Just can't come up with a better way of putting this, but... how much of my review did you read? O_o I mean, if you read it all the way through, you'd notice the two things I didn't even touch on once were
grammar and spelling
. My entire review was all about the elements of poetry he could use to make his poems better: meter, imagery, and meaning. As in, what he needs to make his poem sound better and be more effective. No nitpicks or anything of the sort.
The only comment
linking to grammar and spelling in that entire post was the explanation as to why I was suggesting a correction in an earlier post.
was brought up because of Dulcet's (another reviewer's) post, which was a grammatical review that introduced another grammatical error. This is why I was saying it was okay to do a grammatical review in that paragraph. There's nothing
with doing so; you would just have to make sure you're careful so that you don't suggest anything that only adds in other grammatical errors. In other words, my entire first post here was meant as a way to help the author by teaching a reviewer. I just happened to use theowlmanlives as an example because that's who Dulcet was trying to correct.
If that's the case, then without knowing anything about the poet, tell me what his thoughts about Emolga are or what this "cool feature" is. As you can see, the entire poem he wrote concerning Emolga is completely about finding out what its name is. It doesn't say anything about his feelings concerning it or what he thinks of it. I never said it was a
poem (which you would have also noticed if you actually read my review carefully instead of quoted it just to, ironically enough, tear me a new one in the exact fashion that you accuse me of doing to other poets). Just that it's cute for a beginner but that he can get better beyond that.
Hilariously, yes, I was actually giving him a roundabout compliment -- that he's the one I thought might actually get better if he was given a push in the right direction. Notice how I said that it was okay for a beginner, as if to imply that I thought he could do better if he made a few changes to see what happens. Also note that he's the only poet so far that I've bothered to review in this thread, even though I could have very well reviewed your poetry, TJgamer's, or anyone else's in this thread. Nope. I decided to focus on theowlmanlives because I noticed he was a beginner and that he looked like he'd be the type who'd be better with some polish. Why would I waste my time and energy submitting flame reviews or reviews to people who I don't think would appreciate a few words of advice? Submitting flames would result in drama, and if I tried submitting concrit to anyone I knew wouldn't benefit from it or wouldn't readily accept it, that's a good several minutes of my time that I could have spent doing something else down the tubes.
In short, by submitting concrit, I'm actually complimenting theowlmanlives a crapload of a lot more than if I did if I just submitted an "OMG UR THE BEST POET EVER" review. I'm actually treating him like an intelligent writer who has potential.
And, incidentally, to stay on topic... yes, he's both. Quite clearly, too, for acknowledging that he's new at this. I vehemently deny ever saying that he wasn't either. *short salute to theowlmanlives here*
This is entirely an opinion. If you read my review, you'd also note that I never said that free/blank verse poetry is better than rhyming poetry. While this is my personal opinion (and is a completely different matter because it's not grounded in
kind of objective observation), all I said throughout my review is that rhymed poetry needs a sense of meter (the entire thing about beats and percussion and syllables) in order to
achieve the exact effect you just described
-- namely, to sound better.
As a note, free verse and blank verse can sound just as good if you read it aloud. You just need to find the right kinds of free verse. I'd suggest anything by Allen Ginsberg or Gregory Corso myself, but Charles Simic is also one of my favorites.
Either way, part of the point of poetry in the first place is to pleasure all of the senses.
poetry should sound good, even free verse. If it doesn't, you're clearly doing something wrong.
That's not why I brought up imagery and went on that entire paragraph concerning meaning. :/ I said that imagery is a good thing, not because the reader needs to know what a Pokémon looks like but instead because imagery touches on a reader's senses. If they visualize your vision of your subject, then they start to feel something towards it on an emotional level. It's a lot like looking at a really good painting. You feel something if you can see all the details, but you don't quite get that same emotion if you look at a stick figure drawing done in fifteen seconds. (So, yeah. More of a tip to theowlman here. Hopefully, that makes things a little clearer for you, too because I know that part was a bit on the vague side.)
Team Rocket is probably a bad example. A lot of fans are already sick of their motto, and a number of them don't really care for the newer ones.
Not to mention I'm not even really sure what that has to do with anything, considering we're not talking about anything remotely concerning the Team Rocket motto. (The first was, in my opinion, pretty snazzy. I don't like the others, however. Especially the latest one with its gratuitous Shakespeare quote that makes the English major in me cringe. But again, this is just my opinion.)
Please don't tell me what to say. However, if you really must tell me to tone my reviews down or post only rainbows and sunshine for every writer in this forum, please at least read what I have to say first. It makes it more of a challenge to defend my reviews the less I have to say, "I never actually said anything like that in the first place, so... yeah."
In short, I'm not here to hurt anyone, MeerFall, but the truth is, this section really needs more people with the balls to speak their mind and a decent understanding of poetry to help people along with some halfway decent advice. I don't get how you can think that by eliminating concrit (by restricting everyone to submitting only positive reviews, I'm guessing), you think you can figure out how to improve. On what are you supposed to focus if you're never told where your weaknesses are? What should you be looking up if you're not given tips on what to look up? How do you avoid making the same mistakes over and over again?
That being said, theowlmanlives, sorry about the above rant/bits of drama. It's no problem, and don't worry about the timing, either. Some of the best poets came up with their stuff while high (on pretty much everything you can possibly think of, sometimes all at once), so you can definitely do it while groggy. All you have to do is remember to put some heart into it, and you'll be fine.
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i'm not saying to post rainbows and sunshine (what ever that is :/ ) but just review everything with a little bit of criterziem and expanding to with good points also you are putting him down by writing big blocks of text and aload of criterziem. he has done many things right like
1. theme (that is hard to stay topic/theme)
2. rhyming (hard as well)
3. basing on experence (very hard if it is personal)
everyone has two sides just like a coin but everyone wants to see the shiny side! the 'happy' side. to me you only see the side of improvement! you want everyone to improve, when you can improve a bit more too like not writing too much and just ignoring things that is not your problem! ever heard of 'their is always room to improve!' but you are forgetting that even if there is room to improve, sometimes you are better off relaxing and amire how far you have gone!
so please be easy on newbies as their is room to improve but the only way to encorge them is to tell them thier good points and let them improve in their own way on what they thought was good and what they think is terrible!
The picture says it all!
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