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Vaccines

Khawill

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Liberals: What happened to "My Body, My Choice"?

That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)

On a side not, people who are suspect able to certain vaccines are not allowed to join the military (can't join cause smallpox vaccine will kill me)
 

TRIFORCE89

Guide of Darkness
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That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)
Also, endangering others. Not just yourself.
 
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Some people might be surprised to hear I am actually a supporter of vaccines. They're a wonderful boon to protect ourselves from epidemics which plague the third world.

However, we also have to realize not all vaccines are good, and not all are bad either. Some vaccines are true to their purpose, while others such as Merck falsify their test results to push an ineffective mumps vaccine to the public (which ends up giving people the mumps.)

We have to realize that vaccines are very grey, but also very dangerous. That is because a manufacturer could put anything into your body and not be responsible for it.

Forced inoculations makes it all much more worrying.

It's a very grey area. But vaccines are just a tool. There for, we as a society need to remain vigilant about who manufactures our vaccines. Because they are the true culprit for crime, and not vaccines themselves.
 

Catalyst.

Nothing of significance
126
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11
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Isn't it true that you have to be immunized in order to attend public school? And the law requires you attend (unless you were homeschooled like I was), so in a way they're sorta legally required. o.O

Wouldn't this go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights's right to education? I don't know about the U.S.A, but in Canada, this has been gone through in court before, and the first was upheld. The schools still try to make you think it's needed, however. :P
 

FreakyLocz14

Conservative Patriot
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That doesn't really apply here, I can not choose legally to put a gun to my face and pull the trigger. Similarly you can not choose to endanger yourself by ignoring something as simple as getting a shot (face your fear of needles for your own safety)

On a side not, people who are suspect able to certain vaccines are not allowed to join the military (can't join cause smallpox vaccine will kill me)

I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.

Wouldn't this go against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights's right to education? I don't know about the U.S.A, but in Canada, this has been gone through in court before, and the first was upheld. The schools still try to make you think it's needed, however. :P

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not law in the United States.
 

Khawill

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I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.

That is so stupid humans don't operate off of constant logic, we are constantly influenced by on a whim emotions and changing ideas. Also people are commonly illogical. So let's say we make prostitution legal, what happens when those prostitutes start getting murdered? What happens when the rate of STDs go up because more people are ya know, doing the same tute? Laws keep people from doing stupid things by providing a punishment to deter it. Now you may make the argument "Well the guy should know that he is at risk." What if he is not given the proper education on the subject, or possibly it slips his mind?

The right to suicide is also a terrible belief. What about all the teenagers who commit suicide for extremely petty things, (my girlfriend broke up with me, my dog died, I got an F, nobody liked me today). Normally I could call the police, who will have the clearence to come in, arrest, detain, and rehabilitate or help that teen or adult. Now under your laws, I could call the police but they could not do anything about it and now I'm short one friend. Additionally you have people who overdose without knowing the consequence, and people who become depressed over a large event that doesn't warrant death (divorce, family/friend death,, or presidential election) the latter going off an illogical idea that "This is the only way out"

I agree with rec drugs, not hard, but certainly pot.

I don't mean to say the government knows best, but the people in it are more educated than the common man and there are scientists who work for the government in all fields.
 

FreakyLocz14

Conservative Patriot
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That is so stupid humans don't operate off of constant logic, we are constantly influenced by on a whim emotions and changing ideas. Also people are commonly illogical. So let's say we make prostitution legal, what happens when those prostitutes start getting murdered? What happens when the rate of STDs go up because more people are ya know, doing the same tute? Laws keep people from doing stupid things by providing a punishment to deter it. Now you may make the argument "Well the guy should know that he is at risk." What if he is not given the proper education on the subject, or possibly it slips his mind?

The right to suicide is also a terrible belief. What about all the teenagers who commit suicide for extremely petty things, (my girlfriend broke up with me, my dog died, I got an F, nobody liked me today). Normally I could call the police, who will have the clearence to come in, arrest, detain, and rehabilitate or help that teen or adult. Now under your laws, I could call the police but they could not do anything about it and now I'm short one friend. Additionally you have people who overdose without knowing the consequence, and people who become depressed over a large event that doesn't warrant death (divorce, family/friend death,, or presidential election) the latter going off an illogical idea that "This is the only way out"

I agree with rec drugs, not hard, but certainly pot.

I don't mean to say the government knows best, but the people in it are more educated than the common man and there are scientists who work for the government in all fields.

Prostitition is already legal in Nevada, and there hasn't been a single case of HIV from legal prostitition activity in that state. The workers are also safe.

With prohibition come black market crime and exploitation, while legalization would bring regulation and unionization.
 

Khawill

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Prostitition is already legal in Nevada, and there hasn't been a single case of HIV from legal prostitition activity in that state. The workers are also safe.

With prohibition come black market crime and exploitation, while legalization would bring regulation and unionization.

Please don't bring prohibition into this. They suddenly made a substance people had been drinking for centuries illegal (which people were easily addicted to). Not only this, but it is easy to make alcohol, as a matter of fact one extremely potent alcohol type. Now they tax the **** out of it (and tobacco) which lowers the cost. Also prohibition is another example of our human nature and body working against logic and reasoning (proving my point).

It isn't federally legal in Nevada (like pot in Washington/Colorado) meaning the FBI can sill come in a hammer down on the prostitutes if a problem arises (such as the leader of a gang who runs a brothel but they can't get anything on him but that).

Regarding HIV rates in Nevada please read this link http://resources.lawinfo.com/en/legal-faqs/criminal-law/nevada/index.html
It explicitly details that you will be charged with a Felony if you engage in intercourse with an STD, which means they are still controlling our bodies for or safety. (Much in the same way a vaccine is required)
 
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I would defend your right to end your own life. The govenrment has no business telling people what to do with their own bodies, be it using recreational drugs, comitting suicide, refusing vaccinations, engaging in prostitution, etc.
How you endanger yourself should be a question we talk about though. Refusing vaccinations is much, much more likely to have ramifications for other people than recreational drug use would. In this sense refusing vaccination can be in some cases putting other people at risk. Yes, I know, we should all take responsibility for ourselves, etc., but what of people whose choices are being made by other people? (Meaning children of parents who won't immunize them, let's say for religious reasons.) They become more and more at risk the more people opt not to immunize themselves. I'd rather that more people get vaccines than have some personal reassurance from a non-immunized person that they'd stay away from people if they got sick.

To me it's akin to reckless driving. (Not exactly the same thing, but with the same underlying principle.)
 
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but what of people whose choices are being made by other people? (Meaning children of parents who won't immunize them, let's say for religious reasons.) They become more and more at risk the more people opt not to immunize themselves.
If a parent is deciding not to vaccinate their child, that is none of my business, nor' responsibility.

Of course I do not condone religious baloney, but it's really not my responsibility. The world can't come crumbling down to accommodate one person's misfortunes.

Likewise, on that subject, forced inoculations is a bad, BAD idea! Neither the state nor' federal government should have the power to forcibly inoculate the population due to issues of not only preserving the liberty of an individual, but also because they're forcing me to put something inside my body I do not know or choose, and furthermore, that they are not responsible for. What if they put something immoral inside the vaccine they didn't want us to know about?

Population control and eugenics is certainly a scary thing, but it's also very concerning when we pave the way for it with forced inoculations. It probably isn't happening today, but it could easily happen if we provoke it to happen.

As it is people are already complaining about overpopulation. Do we really need forced inoculations where they could put whatever they want into our bodies and not be responsible?

Society should not use morality as an argument for this because the ramifications of it are far greater than anything else.
 
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You sound overly paranoid no offense. Vaccines are meant to protect people from diseases , nothing else. By not vaccinating people, there is a risk of an outbreak of Polio or other diseases which dosent exist when the whole population is vaccinated. Its just too much of a risk because when people stop getting vaccinated, the disease has a chance to infect people who will transfer the disease to others that aren't. Personally Id rather get vaccinated then risk contracting a disease. No one wants these illnesses, they can kill people. There is a reason people have to get vaccinated. Because it dosen't just affect you, it's for everyone's health and safety.
 
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You sound overly paranoid no offense.

Is anything I said incorrect though?

The issue is we should not be letting the government forcibly inject something into our bodies that they do not always fully declassify, and furthermore, that they're not responsible for if something goes wrong.

No one is stopping you from getting vaccinated. In fact, I actually do advise people to get vaccinated if they do their research and decide they trust the manufacturer. However, the issue arises once vaccinations are forced.
 
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I dont see what overpopulation has to do with people getting a vaccine. That's an entiely different issue. Im saying there is a reason vaccinations are required in some cases, such as before children enter school. I honestly dont think the government is putting malicious stuff in vaccines or using it to put mailicious stuff in our bodies.
 
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Khawill

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Dude, they give vaccines to everyone, they wouldn't put malicious substances in it for the sake of population control, that is stupid. Also not taking vaccines endangers others. I can't take smallpox vaccine, or I die (I was warned by my doctor, my federal doctor) If vaccines were not forced and that disease came back, you could spread it to me and I could die. This applies to other people with allergies to vaccines as well.
 
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Im saying there is a reason there is a law requiring Vaccination.
Really? We're required by law to have a vaccine? Since when?

Dude, they give vaccines to everyone, they wouldn't put malicious substances in it for the sake of population control, that is stupid.
It doesn't matter what they actually put in the vaccines in the end. We shouldn't be giving stepping stones for malicious things in the first place. Vaccines especially.

You're missing the point that this is an issue of individual liberty versus forced vaccines.

If you guys seriously believe in forced inoculations, we might as well take it a step further and have Gestapo police barging into our houses and forcing our children to take Ritalin and other pills. Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing someone to be vaccinated by law.

And don't forget the only way to enforce a law is through force. I don't believe it's moral whatsoever for us to throw someone in jail for refusing a vaccine. Can you seriously tell me that is moral in any way whatsoever?
 
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Khawill

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Ritalin doesn't prevent people from dying, it is something to calm down people. Also people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves. Not only this but there is no stepping stone for your paranoid fantasy genocide, the government has better ways to control the population than outright killing people.
Such as
-Legal Abortion
-Less child tax breaks
-Teaching about birth control
-Child birth limits
-Childcare for a limited amount of children per family

Also it isn't the government's job to control the population unless it gets way out of hand, it is the parent's job to raise their children responsibly.
 
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Ritalin doesn't prevent people from dying, it is something to calm down people. Also people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves. Not only this but there is no stepping stone for your paranoid fantasy genocide...
It doesn't matter. Ritalin is still a comparison because you're still mandating someone by law must consume a drug.

And I'm not saying the government will use vaccines as a fantasy-genocide. I'm saying that opening up the possibility with forced vaccinations is dangerous for society in the longterm. Especially at the cost of our individual liberties for our own bodies. And don't forget that the government is not responsible if you get sick from the vaccine!

But ultimately, if someone is ignorant and endangering themselves, that is none of your business. What someone does to their own body is absolutely none of your business. Period.

...people should be forced because it prevents ignorant people from inadvertadly endangering themselves...

Don't you have any idea what the founding fathers of America fought over?
 
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Khawill

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It doesn't matter. Ritalin is still a comparison because you're still mandating someone by law must consume a drug.

And I'm not saying the government will use vaccines as a fantasy-genocide. I'm saying that opening up the possibility with forced vaccinations is dangerous for society in the longterm. Especially at the cost of our individual liberties for our own bodies. And don't forget that the government is not responsible if you get sick from the vaccine!

But ultimately, if someone is ignorant and endangering themselves, that is none of your business. What someone does to their own body is absolutely none of your business. Period.

Are you for or against gay marriage? (It is relevant to my argument)

Also, ignorance is something different than choosing not to do it. When someone is ignorant, they may choose not to do it because they don't know the consequence of not doing it. It would be like if I gave someone allergic to peanuts a snickers bar (assume they have never seen it before). They would choose to eat it, but they would not be able to know that nuts are in it.

Also vaccines are not drugs, they are a harmless version of a virus that makes your body immune to it. There are very rare side effects, and there is little reason not to take them.
 
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Are you for or against gay marriage? (It is relevant to my argument)

Also, ignorance is something different than choosing not to do it. When someone is ignorant, they may choose not to do it because they don't know the consequence of not doing it. It would be like if I gave someone allergic to peanuts a snickers bar (assume they have never seen it before). They would choose to eat it, but they would not be able to know that nuts are in it.

Also vaccines are not drugs, they are a harmless version of a virus that makes your body immune to it. There are very rare side effects, and there is little reason not to take them.

How the heck is gay marriage even relevant for an issue like this?

And I'm fully aware of the consequences if I choose not to have a vaccine. But I'm also not responsible for someone else who didn't have the vaccine. I don't like being treated like cattle, you know.

Your analogy doesn't make sense in this argument because they're willingly acting. He still chose to have the snickers bar. I'm not responsible for his decisions chose to eat it.

But the bottomline is forced vaccinations are still mandates to inject something into our body against our will. Its effectiveness at stopping viruses is irrelevant. You're absolutely missing the point about individual liberties, entirely!

A bureaucracy should not be able to decide what a population can do to their own bodies. They especially should not force them to consume a substance because that is essentially martial law where the government controls the population.

Also it isn't the government's job to control the population unless it gets way out of hand...
No it's not. People are supposed to protest. That is the heart of freedom. People are supposed to control the government through a representative republic! NOT the other way around!

The only "out of hand" that exists is when we start violating others' liberties.

We have the second amendment so that when the first amendment is violated, we as Americans are allowed to rise up and take it back. That is why it is specifically the second amendment of our constitution after the first.

Don't ask me. Ask Benjamin Franklin and George Washington. They knew what it meant to fight for freedom.
 
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Really? We're required by law to have a vaccine? Since when?


It doesn't matter what they actually put in the vaccines in the end. We shouldn't be giving stepping stones for malicious things in the first place. Vaccines especially.

You're missing the point that this is an issue of individual liberty versus forced vaccines.

If you guys seriously believe in forced inoculations, we might as well take it a step further and have Gestapo police barging into our houses and forcing our children to take Ritalin and other pills. Because that's essentially the same thing as forcing someone to be vaccinated by law.

And don't forget the only way to enforce a law is through force. I don't believe it's moral whatsoever for us to throw someone in jail for refusing a vaccine. Can you seriously tell me that is moral in any way whatsoever?
No one forces you to take Ritalin or any medication. No one is going to slip things into vaccines and give them to everyone and use if for population control or whatever. about the law thing, I think I missunderstood, I think you just have to take them before entering schools as a school requirement, please excuse my missunderstanding. Ive edited my post.
 
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